August 28, 2023 • 45 mins
D’Lo is a queer/transgender Tamil-Sri Lankan-American actor/writer/comic. He has toured his solo shows internationally, his last show “To T, or not To T?” running last year at the Kirk Douglas Theater in LA. Acting credits include: LOOKING, TRANSPARENT, SENSE 8, and MR.ROBOT, CONNECTING, Quantum Leap and Billy Eichner movie BROS. He is a Senior Civic Media Fellow through USC's Annenberg Innovation Lab funded via the MacArthur Foundation. His work has been published and/or written about in academic journals, literary anthologies, and print/online journalism sources, such as LA Times, The Guardian, NBC, CNN and The Advocate. D'Lo (he/they) dlocokid.com
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instagram.com/dlocokid
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Iantaffi (00:01):
Welcome to another episode of Gender
Stories. I know I always say I'mexcited but I am genuinely so
excited to be interviewing D'Lotoday for you all gender stories
listeners and watchers now forthose of you who are also
watching on YouTube. D’Lo is aqueer/transgender Tamil-Sri
Lankan-Americanactor/writer/comic. He has
(00:23):
toured his solo showsinternationally, his last show
“To T, or not To T?” runninglast year at the Kirk Douglas
Theater in LA. Acting creditsinclude: LOOKING, TRANSPARENT,
SENSE 8, and MR.ROBOT,CONNECTING, Quantum Leap and
Billy Eichner movie BROS. He isa Senior Civic Media Fellow
(00:45):
through USC's AnnenbergInnovation Lab funded via the
MacArthur Foundation. His workhas been published and/or
written about in academicjournals, literary anthologies,
and print/online journalismsources, such as LA Times, The
Guardian, NBC, CNN and TheAdvocate.
D'Lo (01:07):
Thank you so much. Oh, thank you for having me. I
always love talking to people.
And I don't know, I felt like wehad too much in common. You know
what I'm talking about. So, youknow, I was like, this is just
stuff that I felt like, this issomeone I could trust with my
(01:28):
heart.
Alex Iantaffi (01:30):
Oh, my God, that means so much to me. I felt so
good to when we because we metwhen did this in Engendering
Love thing, panel thing. Andyeah, I felt that connection to
I feel so good to hear that. Andthen I saw you post something on
Instagram about bidets I waslike, I feel that so strongly,
too. And that's how weconnected. I was like, let's do
(01:51):
this. Let's get to know eachother a little better. And let's
also record a podcast episode.
So thank you so much.
D'Lo (01:56):
Yes, absolutely.
Alex Iantaffi (01:59):
Well, so let's talk about actually the power of
language and story, right,because that's in a way, that's
how we met was through sharingsome of our experiences and
stories. And I think that formany folks in minoritized
communities, including transcommunity, queer communities,
there is a real power to sharingour stories and sharing our
(02:20):
voices in this way. So tell me alittle bit more about like, why
is it so important for you toshare your stories in all this
beautiful, different media asyou do?
D'Lo (02:30):
Yeah, I think that, for me, it started with me, my
career started, or my artisticpress practice started in
regards to the writing because Iwas playing music before. But in
regards to writing, I was apoet, I still am a poet. And so,
but the poetry when I wasyounger, was really about larger
(02:53):
issues like the state of ourworld, the state in our society,
the police state, war as a assort of like, the, you know, not
just about the Sri Lankan CivilWar, but just our civil wars
here on this land. And you know,everything about queer issues,
(03:16):
to AIDs to everything, you know.
And when I came out to myparents, like two months before
I graduated college, I moved toNew York. And there were things
that were happening to me, likeon a heart level that I just
didn't have an outlet for. And Iwas sitting there still doing
(03:38):
the poems and the poetry, but Ifelt like I wanted to share
more, not to the audience, but Iagree. So I think I started by
saying that it was very strangefor me, especially like looking
back to think that I wasconnecting with audiences on
(03:58):
these bigger issues like havinga point of connection. When in
actuality, when I startedwriting about what was deeply
personal and with specificity,that I started having such a
deep connection with myaudiences, because as one of my
mentors and teachers says CherieMoraga, she says that, you know,
(04:20):
that the more details andspecificity you provide in your
story, the more universal itbecomes. And it's such an
interesting thing, right? Like,you and I probably have less in
common outside of our queernessand queerness can be a blanket
(04:40):
because we all know that there'sso many different ways of being
queer. And yet we will be ableto connect based off of the
hours, the specificities, in ourstories, those little hidden
gems that are there are wherethere's deeper points of
connection. So So that's, that'swhen I realized I Mmm, the power
of storytelling from a verypersonal space and that the
(05:05):
personal is political. And, andvice versa. And that and that
you could storytell in a waythat changes people, like
literally rocks them on such adeep foundational level, that
they are changed the minute thatthey leave that space with you,
(05:27):
you know. So I am interested inthat kind of power and
empowering people to, to bedesirous of that kind of power
as well, you know, you know, weoftentimes talk about how, you
know, like, representationmatters, like, it does. It does,
(05:47):
it does, it does. And I'm notsaying anything to like, naysay
against that, you know, but Ithink that our freedom is most
important, our personal freedomis most important. And we can
get free as a collective, youknow, so I think that story is
(06:10):
the binding agent, and that Iknow that that's like the, it's
the thing that I use to createcollective healing.
Alex Iantaffi (06:22):
I love that I'm getting chills, actually, as
you're talking about this,because, as you were saying that
I was thinking, Yeah, thiscommon threads of our humanity,
right, that we can weavetogether for the power of story,
you know, I'm thinking about"Everything Everywhere, All at
Once" did I remember the titlecorrectly, it was such an
amazing movie, right? Totallyfar from my experience as a
(06:48):
southern Italian person who'smoved first to the UK and then
to Italy, right. But there wasso many things that I felt
deeply connected to, and then myoldest kid was like, I need to
watch this movie with you, Mom,you know, and we're watching
this movie, and we're holdinghands, and we're crying, you
know, and again, that no sharedidentities, in terms of an Asian
(07:10):
American experience, but theywere threads of connection
around like, you know,intergenerational trauma, and
parenting, and just just Yes,there were so many friends that
we could still connect to. Andit is transformative when we can
connect across, you know, acrossdifferences, but also kind of
(07:32):
things that bring us together ashuman. I don't know, it's such a
weird complex dance. For mealways.
D'Lo (07:39):
magical thing, it is a very magical thing. Because, you
know, you sometimes you go inand you don't expect to connect.
That's the thing we don't expectto connect because we're fear
full of the opposite of whatthat is right? Like we're
fearful for the disconnectionfor the violence for this that
(08:01):
and other. And that's why Ithink it's so magical, because a
single point can do either or,and yet, more often than not, if
you're dealing with somebodywho's not like, maybe is, like,
(08:21):
even if you're dealing withsomebody who's like, a little
bit of an asshole, there stillmight be an opening to which
that person might be able tograb on to your, your, your
story, and vice versa, you know,so?
Alex Iantaffi (08:36):
Absolutely. I mean, I know that I found
connection unexpectedly withpeople where if our we've got
nothing in common. And then I'veactually found this connection
with people, I thought, Oh, wemust have so much in common.
Right? You can, I don't know forme, you can never tell. And I
love what you said that you it'snot just about your story. You
also help people tell theirstories, right? You've done
(08:58):
workshops to really help peoplelearn how to tell their story or
bring the story out. So tell meabout what drew you to that to
kind of wanting to work withpeople and helping them tell
their own stories as well.
D'Lo (09:12):
Yeah, I think that I kind of got pulled into doing
workshops when I was touring thecollege university circuit. And
based off of whatever I waslearning, I would sort of
incorporate some things and thenadd my own sort of twist to
things. But in the more like,more specific types of workshops
(09:38):
that I do. The main reason why Iwanted to do those is because it
was there were situations inwhich I was dealing with not
dealing with but hearing a lotof stories around people's
mental health decline. Seeingand rates of death by suicide.
(10:04):
So these were reasons for me tobe like, let me just do these
and see what happens, you know.
And, you know, sometimes with,like, this is just an example.
But, you know, one of theorganizations I worked with
Satrang is the South Asian queerorganization that has been
(10:25):
organizing in Los Angeles for 25years, you know, and they would
have these parties, andeverybody would come out to
them. And it would be like, abig Bollywood or something like
that something very Indian,South Asian, or more north,
(10:46):
northern Indian, right, or, youknow, what I'm talking about.
So, I would come there as a, asa first generation American,
right, and not really know howto connect with these folks.
Right? And I was like, oh, youknow, I would just come to
support but I didn't really lovethe music, I didn't get it,
(11:07):
there wasn't my part of myculture, right. And then I, I
kept going to these just as asupporter, just as somebody who
would, you know, knew that therewere like, brown folks, queer
folks party. And at theseparties, I would see like people
(11:29):
wiling out, like, it was almostlike, that amount of freedom to
just be queer and brown and openabout it, and just let, letting
go of everything was almost toomuch freedom, it was almost like
we have people like eithergetting really drunk or like,
(11:50):
you know, different things likethat. And so I was like, There's
something clearly missing here,if we're not able to provide
another sort of space outside ofthe party space. And I brought
the idea of the workshop to theorganizers, and everybody's
(12:12):
like, Oh, no, I don't know. Andthen, you know, like, and I
said, look at, you don't have topay me for this sort of school
route. Let me just do it. Andsure enough, it was like such a
beautiful, deep, profoundexperience. And I made all of
the workshop participants,invite people they normally
(12:32):
would not invite to, to thispublic reading, right. So we had
people coming in that room thatwere probably haters, or people
who were coworkers and didn'tknow that their friend was
queer, or whatever. And theywere all mobbed up, we had over
100 people in this joint. Andstory by story we shared and it
(12:56):
changed, like, what washappening in that room changed
people. Like, they were gettingtheir freedom, you know, and
then, and then that word of itgot around them, or whatever.
And it was actually like peoplewho usually went to the parties
(13:17):
who actually came to the readingthat were like, Oh, my God, I
didn't realize I needed to behere. And then they would sign
up for the workshop, the nextschool room, you know. And I
think that it's a, it's a sadthing. And I brought this up on
that panel that we were on, butyou cannot quantify the impact
of community based artists andthese and these types of
(13:40):
workshop settings. And so youreally aren't ever going to get
the full scope of how profoundthese experiences are, like its
arts making. Its writing. Youit's a process is a decolonial
process that is occurring in thelike, it's happening
(14:00):
strategically, because I'm thefacilitator, but it's also just
happening on a on a deep level,just by the converging of
people, you know. And so, sorry,I don't mean to talk so long,
but I'm saying that let's dothis kind of thing is what like,
it makes me so sad that we can'tuse metrics to prove that these
(14:24):
things are life changing, trulytransformative experiences, you
know, and not just for me, youknow, because recently I haven't
really been teaching thecourses. I have a lot of
mentees. But but, you know, todo this where it's easier for me
(14:47):
to walk with a mentee. I don't,I'm not getting paid. They might
buy me lunch or a coffee, do itI'm saying and it's more
sustainable for me than it is toactually do the workshops with
no money. Yeah, you know,absolutely. So. So yeah, that's,
that's my two cents. I met a
Alex Iantaffi (15:09):
beautiful as a beautiful two cents, you know,
and it's just that what you weretalking, I was thinking about
how much healing that brings,right? I mean, I'm a therapist
in terms of what I do with myday job. And one thing that
keeps, you know, hitting me isjust how finally, kind of
(15:31):
Western traditionalpsychotherapy is catching up to
healing traditions, right?
Because I really feel like thistherapists were part of, we're
just the latest manifestation ofhealers, you know, under this
capitalist, white supremacistworld, but really, people need
healing, you know, and actually,what's happening now is that
we're coming back full circle,in some ways in there is this
(15:53):
interest in somatic and art andbringing the body you know, and
I was like, of course, you know,this is, you know, I didn't grow
up in a therapy culture where Igot my healing was through
community worship, that ofcourse, it got problematic
because right, it was anexclusionary worship for me as a
trans person, but movingtogether, seeing you with people
(16:17):
dancing with people. And thenwhen I came out as queer, where
I got my healing was dancing atthe club, was also problematic,
because people were also tryingto find their healing through
alcohol and substance use. But Ifound a lot of my healing
through connecting throughdancing and moving and or queer
choir, you know, those are theways we feed our soul. Right?
(16:39):
poetry readings, all of that. Soam I, as you were talking with
like, yes, yes, yes. Sorry, thatwas a long comment on your two
cents. But there you go. Wetouch just a little bit like you
mentioned, representation,right? We started with the power
of story, but there's also thispower of representation. And you
(17:00):
have been, you can have a numberof like shows and as well as
doing your own solo work. Why doyou think it's important for you
as a, you know, Tamil Sri LankanAmerican trans queer actor to be
out there and be visible? Andfor more and more diverse
(17:21):
representation, because in away, I feel like 20 years ago,
you know, with trans people, itwas like the Highlander
syndrome, that can only be one,right. And now we're finally in
a place where maybe there can belike, a few of us in a show,
right? Lately, somebody waslike, we need the Alison Bechdel
Test. But for trans people, youknow, are there several trans
(17:42):
people? Do they have names? Arethey talking to each other? And
they're not just to like, die orbe like a plot point? You know
what I mean? So yeah, tell me alittle bit about your thoughts
about representation. From yourpoint of view, as somebody who
is an actor, and who said,they're representing in some
ways,
D'Lo (18:02):
yeah, I, I feel that the more stories we have out there,
the better. And in thisconversation around
representation, it's also like,I'm not happy with just any kind
(18:23):
of representation, like I neededto be specifically like, like,
mindfully done, right. And Ithink that Hollywood, bless
Hollywood's heart might not getit right, the majority of the
time. And yet, we fight to havemore truer representation. And
(18:54):
I'm seeing all of this stuff assort of like a preface to the
fact that like, I've been inthis game and I was, you know,
right when the beginning of thattrans wave started about 10
years ago. Yep. was doing a lotaround representation and
whatnot. And I have had thehardest time in this industry
(19:15):
landing an agent orrepresentation. I've had some
here and there but the only workthat I felt like I could put out
there and and do it on my ownname and who is my is my own
personal work right likeeverything else that was bigger
than that was scripted wouldtake a lot more money and it has
(19:38):
I've definitely doled out enoughof my own money to to do things.
I I know that there is a lane todo that. But there's very few
people who are on that path evennow. And the amount of power
they wield is even less andtypically is in the hands of a
(19:59):
lot of white, queer people,right? And so and I'm not mad at
that, because I have a lot offriends, acquaintances,
colleagues that are all, youknow, that are white and trends
that are white and queer. Andthey're they're making headway,
you know, and I'm so gratefulfor that. But I think that when
(20:24):
when I like, I think recently,because I've been in a lot of
conversations aroundrepresentation. I don't mind
that there are people who arenot trans or queer, who are
collaborating with me on storiesthat uplift marginalized voices.
(20:46):
I don't, they don't need to beonly queer, they don't need to
be only. I mean, in my heart, Iwant to contest this is me. This
is just me. But I only want tobe creating with other bipoc.
Folks, you know what I'm saying?
Like, but I'm not opposed tocollaborations that are that
(21:11):
that, that need a special eyethat may be I'm not getting
within my own circles. Sorry,I'm gonna go off tangent. On
tangent, do they say that? Whoknows?
Alex Iantaffi (21:27):
I don't know, you can go on or off wherever you
want.
D'Lo (21:30):
But I think that when we when I've been having these
conversations aboutrepresentation, I what I really
want to say is representrepresentation matters. And it
also is not the only thing thatmatters. It matters if it's done
in a way that is really likeable to penetrate and change
(21:53):
things or empower people. Andit's not just about sticking one
like you said as the plot lineor whatever. We joked on one
panel that we're we want to seeshows where there's more than
one trans, trans queer person.
And then I thought, Well, whydon't we take all the characters
that are just the one transperson on the show and then
create a show around theirindividual characters? But But
(22:16):
where I want to land with thisquestion is, again, back to
personal freedom? Yes, I thinkthat we have to pick and choose
our battles, and some battlesare done on an industry level.
And some battles are done on acommunity based level and some
(22:38):
battles are taking place fromwithin our hearts. And I think
that the, the, if we, ifeverybody's like, I need to see
me in that medium. And then I'mnot going to be otherwise I
won't see myself in the way thatI want to be seeing myself, then
that's the biggest problem.
(22:59):
Yeah, is that what we ingest?
Doesn't necessarily have to comefrom that. Like, I know, for me,
what I ingested came from stageand from the page, you know, and
so in that way, I think thatrepresentation all across the
board matter, but it's not justwho we're seeing on the screen.
I know that that's so important,but it's not just that, you
(23:23):
know,
Alex Iantaffi (23:26):
oh, absolutely cannot be the be all and end all
and like you said alsorepresentation as like, what
kind of representation right? Isit intentional? Is it mindful?
Is it transformative? You know,you talked about the
transformative power of story,right? Is a stereotypical or is
it transformative? Is it youknow, and also who's writing
those characters? Right? It'snot just the actors, but who's
(23:48):
in the writing room? Yes. Imean, those for writing rooms,
everybody's on strike at themoment, but still on strike,
right. I've lost track of newslately. But, you know, it's so
complex, you know? Yeah, becauseotherwise you get visibility,
and being targeted for thatvisibility without that change,
(24:11):
which I think in some way we'reseeing in trans community right
now, right, there was thattipping point, you know, Laverne
Cox on the cover of Time, all ofthose beautiful things, you
know, I'm in my 50s, I'vedefinitely seen trans and queer
people, you know, be much morevisible in ways that I never
expected, potentially, in mylifetime. And I've also seen the
(24:35):
backlash on that, you know, andI saw like, then who suffers the
most right? They're gonna be thefolks in our community who have
the least access and the leastprivilege and so it becomes, I
know, it's complicated. As manythings are in life.
D'Lo (24:49):
I'm so happy that there is so much more representation and
I'm like, but what are we doingfor our people on a deep level,
you know, exactly how is thishow is this helping If we're
already on the margins, but thenthere's even margins within that
margin, you know?
Alex Iantaffi (25:08):
And we have to be at the center.
D'Lo (25:09):
Yeah. Okay to be in the center. And so that's why I'm
always like personal freedom,personal freedom, because it's
personal freedom to me before Iused to hear that. And I'd be
like, well, how does that attachto the rest of the world? And
then I realized, oh, no, thisattaches to the rest of the
world in such a profound way.
Because, again, it's when we arehealing in communities, when
we're creating in community,it's when we're like, then we
(25:32):
become the healthiest. Right?
And then, and then the rippleeffect is grant, you know?
Alex Iantaffi (25:40):
Absolutely. Oh, I love that. I feel like, I feel
like there's 500 tangents in myhead. And that's okay. That
often happens. But talking aboutthose kind of personal story,
that personal freedom, I do wantto touch on your latest, I think
it's your latest solo show,right? To tea or not to tea. And
(26:02):
yeah, what is that about? Youknow, I'm not in California, so
I didn't get to see it. But itwas awesome. So yeah, tell us
about that show why you wroteit, what it means to you, all of
that good stuff.
D'Lo (26:15):
Yeah. To turn it was a solo show second of a trilogy
around. You know, what, myreflections on taking tea, the
choices that I made to take teaor or the decision process
behind that, but also like, youknow, what does beautiful
masculinity look like? We're, wealways throw around toxic
(26:37):
masculinity, but it's kind oflike, okay, like, that's just
patriarchy. Like, that's in theanswer. Anybody can be a toxic
masculine person. Yeah. But, butwhat is beautiful masculinity
mean? kind of flips it for thepeople who proudly ID as
masculine and, or a blend orwhatever, but some kind of
masculinity and say, okay, like,what is this? What does this
(26:59):
look like for me? So, I kind oftalked about, like, you know,
growing up and my, the sort ofunderstanding of masculinity
that I had, via TV and myculture and the culture that I
also my artistic community. Andthen I go into, you know, my
(27:22):
journey into, not into feminism,but as a feminist, because I
feel like a lot of people, youknow, I remember when I first
said this, but I feel like oneof my first feminist teachers
was Queen Latifah. And this wasas a young kid in the 80s,
listening to her lyrics as anMC, you know, and so, fast
(27:45):
forward to me, learning fromthese very incredible scholars,
slash artists, you know, thesethese feminist scholars that
wrote the bridge, call my back,and, you know, other other
beautiful books and poet poetrybooks. But when I talked to
these very same people in thesecommunities, and as I was a part
(28:08):
of these women's circles, I wasI was like, right before
millennial. And so what happensis that I started getting this
messaging, like, you don't wantto be a man, like, why would you
want to do that, like men arewhat's wrong with this world?
And etc, etc. So I drank enoughof that, to not really think
that I had a decision to youknow, like that I had decision
(28:31):
making power, because I waslike, Why do I want to do this?
Am I turning my back on womenand feminism, whatever. And, and
this and where I land is that,you know, I have to do what it
is, I'm the only person who isliving in this reality with this
with my past histories, whichyou know, twirling around in my
(28:53):
brain and in my heart, and ifthis is what I want to just kind
of see if this could besomething for me, then I'm going
to try that. And throw it backat these feminists who probably
didn't mean to be turfy butaccidentally were and say, Isn't
feminist men what you've alwayswished for? You know? And just
(29:18):
leave it at that, like I get theoptics, I get that masculine
women and people who are seen asmasculine women are, are like
examples of a fuck you, youknow, but, but it's like at what
cost? Our queer peoples we havesuch like, already, we're like,
(29:44):
oh, yeah, we're challenginggender norms. But we still have
a very binary way of looking atgender. And it's just the same
way that we do a lot of thingsand so meaning that it's just in
the ether, we smell it and likeit's an yes they're affecting
us. And so I, my work recentlyhas been around the
(30:06):
intersections of mental healthand masculinity and queerness,
of course, but you know, what?
What kind of invisible isolationhappens as you transition? The
flip side of visibility, and howare we like, are we just and
(30:27):
again, being subsumed into thiscommunity of people. And then
our needs are not ever broughtto light like, like a lot of
birch or stud, or masculine ofcenter, or AG, or whoever you
want to call it. Our needsweren't put up at the very top,
because we were being goodlovers of femmes and women, you
(30:50):
know. And so all of our shitjust gets tucked under someplace
else, and we have to try andfigure that out. And yet, we're
not because again, patriarchy,we're not talking to each other,
etc, etc. So, this is the workthat I'm trying to do right now
I have this project as sort oflike, a next step to this, it's
not a solo based piece, but it'scalled cry with you, or the
(31:14):
uncles project in which myself,and I've already prototyped at
once, just with me, but what Idream of is having a whole bunch
of men of color, from the wholeGender Spectrum, to offer to
hold space for other people as apublic installation, or a
(31:35):
busking project. And so, thatpiece is, you know, the question
that's framing this piece is,why can men be seen as nurturers
or as safe spaces? And so kindof throwing back the onus of our
our own people to take care ofone another, right? Because and
(31:58):
not have the the burden ofcaretaking to be on the
shoulders of femmes and womenall the time.
Alex Iantaffi (32:09):
So beautiful and, and also it just kind of I have
so many feelings about listeningto you talking about that.
Because, you know, having beenbrought up as a second wave
feminist, you know, I worked sohard like, oh, is this my, you
know, internalized misogyny, youknow, I wanted to really
(32:30):
celebrate and embrace myfemininity coming out was really
hard. It took me into my, youknow, early 30s To finally be
like, I'm definitely genderqueer, you know, on the
masculine end of the spectrum,but also on a very effeminate
masculinity. You know, I, theway I explained it to my mom was
(32:50):
having a hard time understandingwhat was happening, honestly,
with my sexuality and gender aslike, you know, Mom, if I'd been
born as this boy, I would be oneof those cis boys who were like,
into music. I was in Barbies,and like, super queer and
couldn't hide their quickness.
That's my is still masculinity.
(33:11):
But it's also there as a when Ithink when masculine people are
nurturing, caring, is seen asalmost stripping away the
masculinity, right? Becausethere's so much, you know, what
we call over cabling and somatictherapy, of like, femininity
with nurturance, right? So if amasculine person is nurturing,
(33:32):
then that almost strips away,their masculinity is so messed
up. You know, and it's sotraumatic, so
D'Lo (33:42):
basic, it's so sick.
Alex Iantaffi (33:45):
Yes. Like,
D'Lo (33:47):
what are we doing here?
Alex Iantaffi (33:49):
Right. I love that. This Mother's Day, you
know, I got this sweet tax frommy oldest kid was admin, the
stories I share about her withtheir consent was almost 20. You
know, and it was like, HappyMother's Day to my two dads,
right? Because, like, we alwaystalk about being a mom is like a
job and actually, you know,like, the medical parent with
(34:13):
assessment man is much more of aman than I ever was, you know,
I'm much more like the fun,rough and tumble but also like
provider type of person, youknow, in my family, so much more
like traditionally masculinerole, despite like my feminine
masculinity, whereas my sis malepartner is definitely the mom,
(34:34):
right? It's really hard for himto be away from home and family
for the first time yet to beseparated from the baby was
really hard. You know, it was astay at home parent for a few
years. But you know, and on onehand, people are like, Oh, that
is so beautiful. And on theother hand, I'm like, but that
often is not what is wanted. Ialso see how people move around
(34:56):
that the confusion and thechallenge And like you said, you
know, wasn't a point of addingfeminist men, but then when you
get feminist men, often there'sso much suspicion, there's so
much pushback, there's so muchlike, you're not man enough,
whatever that means, right? Idon't know. I see. So, yes. And
(35:17):
then of my new layer or theother complexity of
racialization it's not it'snever just about gender, right,
never just about their gender.
It's also about when racializedwhether we're disabled or now
whether, you know, what theclass statuses, all that kind of
stuff, it just gets so messy.
And yes. Like you said, it's sosimple.
D'Lo (35:39):
It to me, it's, it's so simple, but when I say it's so
basic, I'm also saying like,it's your, your mate, you're
trivializing the complexitiesand the depth in which people
can exist, you know, like, yes.
Why, why is it that when menshow nurturing side that they're
(36:03):
stripped of their being seen asmasculine? And that's not even
about somebody having autonomyand how they even see their own
masculinity like,
Alex Iantaffi (36:15):
yes. Yeah, and it's that, like you said, is the
personal freedom that it's alsocollective freedom, right,
because when we can letourselves be ourselves and let
other people be themselves, thenthere is the collective freedom
and that of expansiveness, andchoice and beauty. You know, I
(36:38):
love that you talked aboutbeautiful masculinity, because I
think that's that authenticity,that vulnerability is beautiful.
And in a way, it's really deniedin a lot of ways for for a lot
of masculine folks. Yeah, Ithink for masculine folks of
color in lots of different ways.
In his Yeah, it is so simple, socomplex. So basic, so
foundational, all at the sametime. Yeah. Yes. So I know, you
(37:01):
know, we're kind of going alittle bit all over the map. But
I think there's also a littlebit of a theme around, around
freedom, about expansion, aboutaround beauty, as well, right,
the beauty of transformation,the beauty of story. So I'm
curious about nowadays, youknow, we're leaving through yet
(37:24):
another moment, and I say yetanother moment, because this is
not the first time in historyand unfortunately, won't be the
last day where we're seeingreally heightened you know,
transphobia really heightenedqueer phobia. I'm hearing some
discourse I hadn't heard forsome time, right? Being our
communities, being labeled asgroomers and all this really
(37:50):
ugly things that, you know, I'vebeen used again and again,
around against people andagainst queer people,
especially. So how do you findthat beauty and joy in your
everyday life nowadays? BecauseI've been really curious about
how we, as a community are alsofinding breast and beauty and
joy, to be able to get throughyet yet another time. Like I
(38:16):
said,
D'Lo (38:20):
great question. I was just doing a show this morning for a
group and the title of it wascalled queer joy. And I know I
talk about queer Joy a lot as acomic. But I often like, for me
queer, joy, and joy in general,where I find it is like, with my
(38:40):
beloved, I'm going to alwaystalk about community and people
because that's my number onelove, you know, yes, outside of
the days, and so
Alex Iantaffi (38:51):
that's fair.
There's a connection, they're
D'Lo (38:56):
all collectively usable today at the same time, then,
you know, life wouldn't beperfect. It's so so I feel like
for me, outside of, you know, mypeople, it's my people in
nature, my nature, like being innature, we, you know, doing
(39:19):
things like that, right. But youmentioned this thing about like,
we're in this moment in time,that is like so hard. And I know
that I'm in a safe state, quote,unquote. But I can't imagine the
(39:41):
depths of the trauma occurringin people's hearts right now,
because, for me, as old as I am,my internalized transphobia and
queer phobia are like hittingthese items. because I'm also
(40:01):
listening to people spew thisstuff. And I'm like, oh my god,
like, and it's making me go allsorts of different places. And I
almost have to snap myself outof it. So I thought, well, what
is it? If it this is happeningto me in a safe state as
somebody who's out worthy, like,you know, I'm out there being
(40:23):
outspoken about stuff, then thatmeans that people who are even
like me, are also dealing withthis to some degree, right. And
I think and so what I wastelling everybody is, I was
like, I think that this ispride. Yes, this is Pride Month,
and we're all like, you know,but I think it's more important
(40:48):
than ever before. Because weassume that things have gotten
better. So that's why it's evenmore important to pick up the
phone and call people and tellthem. Without you. I wouldn't
have been challenged in thisway. Or I know myself more
because of this, and Iappreciate the way you walk in
(41:09):
this world. And do you get whatI'm saying? Like, those little
touch points to people who areunsung heroes? Who should really
be some heroes all day everyday, you know? Because it takes
courage to be who you are everydamn day. And I think that
(41:29):
that's something that you mightnot know, for yourself. It's
something that I don't know, formyself, do you get what I'm
saying? But it takes courage tojust be who you fucking are
every day. And so I feel likethat's the antidote to not
having joy is to remember joy,and in the reflections of
(41:53):
ourselves, right, which areother people, our community, our
best friends, our chosen family,you know, sometimes our families
of origin, but generally not.
You know, they're trying,they're trying now more than do
their best. They're doing theirbest. But yeah, like, that's,
that, to me is, you know, I findjoy in my, my young little
nieces and nephews, like I find,but it's always about like, that
(42:17):
energy and that joy that islike, it's there, it's palpable
between two bodies or a group ofbodies, you know, and that, to
me, is what, that joy isrevolutionary. It's what keeps
me alive. You know, on all thedifferent levels, you know,
Alex Iantaffi (42:43):
I really hear that sometimes people are like,
how are you still doing? Are youstill engaging in community are
over 50 A lot of people like,you know, just drift away from
organizing or drift away fromcommunity engagement as we get
older, and I might, because Idon't know how to live without,
I need that, you know what Imean? It's like, I need my
(43:03):
elders. I also need my youngerpeople to learn from and call me
on my bullshit, which,thankfully, and I thank them
every time. You know, like, Idon't know how not to like, this
is how I survived. That's aqueer person. Yeah, this is how
like, iron relationships,everything like, what else is
(43:24):
there? You know, if notrelationships with our kin,
like, which is people and aswell as nature, the green
Bloods, right? Yes. Well, and onthat note, because I know you've
got another engagement to go onto, I just want to express my
gratitude for your wisdom andbeauty and time today, but also,
(43:45):
just generally about thebeautiful work you create and
how you move through the world.
And just I'm so grateful forthis connection that we found
and for spending a little bitmore time together today. Thank
you so much.
D'Lo (43:58):
Oh, thank you so much, Alex, I had the best time I
think we're pretty much the sameperson.
Alex Iantaffi (44:05):
Same person with just different histories,
different experiences, but Ilove it. I love it. I can't wait
to share more stories. Fortoday, are gonna say goodbye and
thank you to your listeners forfor listening for watching. If
you're on YouTube, as ever, letme know what you think about the
(44:27):
episode. Subscribe, do yourrating do your thing. And thank
you for spreading and spread joyin your life in your community
in your relationship. Until nexttime,
Welcome to another episode of Gender
Stories. I know I always say I'mexcited but I am genuinely so
excited to be interviewing D'Lotoday for you all gender stories
listeners and watchers now forthose of you who are also
watching on YouTube. D’Lo is aqueer/transgender Tamil-Sri
Lankan-Americanactor/writer/comic. He has
(00:23):
toured his solo showsinternationally, his last show
“To T, or not To T?” runninglast year at the Kirk Douglas
Theater in LA. Acting creditsinclude: LOOKING, TRANSPARENT,
SENSE 8, and MR.ROBOT,CONNECTING, Quantum Leap and
Billy Eichner movie BROS. He isa Senior Civic Media Fellow
(00:45):
through USC's AnnenbergInnovation Lab funded via the
MacArthur Foundation. His workhas been published and/or
written about in academicjournals, literary anthologies,
and print/online journalismsources, such as LA Times, The
Guardian, NBC, CNN and TheAdvocate.
D'Lo (01:07):
Thank you so much. Oh, thank you for having me. I
always love talking to people.
And I don't know, I felt like wehad too much in common. You know
what I'm talking about. So, youknow, I was like, this is just
stuff that I felt like, this issomeone I could trust with my
(01:28):
heart.
Alex Iantaffi (01:30):
Oh, my God, that means so much to me. I felt so
good to when we because we metwhen did this in Engendering
Love thing, panel thing. Andyeah, I felt that connection to
I feel so good to hear that. Andthen I saw you post something on
Instagram about bidets I waslike, I feel that so strongly,
too. And that's how weconnected. I was like, let's do
(01:51):
this. Let's get to know eachother a little better. And let's
also record a podcast episode.
So thank you so much.
D'Lo (01:56):
Yes, absolutely.
Alex Iantaffi (01:59):
Well, so let's talk about actually the power of
language and story, right,because that's in a way, that's
how we met was through sharingsome of our experiences and
stories. And I think that formany folks in minoritized
communities, including transcommunity, queer communities,
there is a real power to sharingour stories and sharing our
(02:20):
voices in this way. So tell me alittle bit more about like, why
is it so important for you toshare your stories in all this
beautiful, different media asyou do?
D'Lo (02:30):
Yeah, I think that, for me, it started with me, my
career started, or my artisticpress practice started in
regards to the writing because Iwas playing music before. But in
regards to writing, I was apoet, I still am a poet. And so,
but the poetry when I wasyounger, was really about larger
(02:53):
issues like the state of ourworld, the state in our society,
the police state, war as a assort of like, the, you know, not
just about the Sri Lankan CivilWar, but just our civil wars
here on this land. And you know,everything about queer issues,
(03:16):
to AIDs to everything, you know.
And when I came out to myparents, like two months before
I graduated college, I moved toNew York. And there were things
that were happening to me, likeon a heart level that I just
didn't have an outlet for. And Iwas sitting there still doing
(03:38):
the poems and the poetry, but Ifelt like I wanted to share
more, not to the audience, but Iagree. So I think I started by
saying that it was very strangefor me, especially like looking
back to think that I wasconnecting with audiences on
(03:58):
these bigger issues like havinga point of connection. When in
actuality, when I startedwriting about what was deeply
personal and with specificity,that I started having such a
deep connection with myaudiences, because as one of my
mentors and teachers says CherieMoraga, she says that, you know,
(04:20):
that the more details andspecificity you provide in your
story, the more universal itbecomes. And it's such an
interesting thing, right? Like,you and I probably have less in
common outside of our queernessand queerness can be a blanket
(04:40):
because we all know that there'sso many different ways of being
queer. And yet we will be ableto connect based off of the
hours, the specificities, in ourstories, those little hidden
gems that are there are wherethere's deeper points of
connection. So So that's, that'swhen I realized I Mmm, the power
of storytelling from a verypersonal space and that the
(05:05):
personal is political. And, andvice versa. And that and that
you could storytell in a waythat changes people, like
literally rocks them on such adeep foundational level, that
they are changed the minute thatthey leave that space with you,
(05:27):
you know. So I am interested inthat kind of power and
empowering people to, to bedesirous of that kind of power
as well, you know, you know, weoftentimes talk about how, you
know, like, representationmatters, like, it does. It does,
(05:47):
it does, it does. And I'm notsaying anything to like, naysay
against that, you know, but Ithink that our freedom is most
important, our personal freedomis most important. And we can
get free as a collective, youknow, so I think that story is
(06:10):
the binding agent, and that Iknow that that's like the, it's
the thing that I use to createcollective healing.
Alex Iantaffi (06:22):
I love that I'm getting chills, actually, as
you're talking about this,because, as you were saying that
I was thinking, Yeah, thiscommon threads of our humanity,
right, that we can weavetogether for the power of story,
you know, I'm thinking about"Everything Everywhere, All at
Once" did I remember the titlecorrectly, it was such an
amazing movie, right? Totallyfar from my experience as a
(06:48):
southern Italian person who'smoved first to the UK and then
to Italy, right. But there wasso many things that I felt
deeply connected to, and then myoldest kid was like, I need to
watch this movie with you, Mom,you know, and we're watching
this movie, and we're holdinghands, and we're crying, you
know, and again, that no sharedidentities, in terms of an Asian
(07:10):
American experience, but theywere threads of connection
around like, you know,intergenerational trauma, and
parenting, and just just Yes,there were so many friends that
we could still connect to. Andit is transformative when we can
connect across, you know, acrossdifferences, but also kind of
(07:32):
things that bring us together ashuman. I don't know, it's such a
weird complex dance. For mealways.
D'Lo (07:39):
magical thing, it is a very magical thing. Because, you
know, you sometimes you go inand you don't expect to connect.
That's the thing we don't expectto connect because we're fear
full of the opposite of whatthat is right? Like we're
fearful for the disconnectionfor the violence for this that
(08:01):
and other. And that's why Ithink it's so magical, because a
single point can do either or,and yet, more often than not, if
you're dealing with somebodywho's not like, maybe is, like,
(08:21):
even if you're dealing withsomebody who's like, a little
bit of an asshole, there stillmight be an opening to which
that person might be able tograb on to your, your, your
story, and vice versa, you know,so?
Alex Iantaffi (08:36):
Absolutely. I mean, I know that I found
connection unexpectedly withpeople where if our we've got
nothing in common. And then I'veactually found this connection
with people, I thought, Oh, wemust have so much in common.
Right? You can, I don't know forme, you can never tell. And I
love what you said that you it'snot just about your story. You
also help people tell theirstories, right? You've done
(08:58):
workshops to really help peoplelearn how to tell their story or
bring the story out. So tell meabout what drew you to that to
kind of wanting to work withpeople and helping them tell
their own stories as well.
D'Lo (09:12):
Yeah, I think that I kind of got pulled into doing
workshops when I was touring thecollege university circuit. And
based off of whatever I waslearning, I would sort of
incorporate some things and thenadd my own sort of twist to
things. But in the more like,more specific types of workshops
(09:38):
that I do. The main reason why Iwanted to do those is because it
was there were situations inwhich I was dealing with not
dealing with but hearing a lotof stories around people's
mental health decline. Seeingand rates of death by suicide.
(10:04):
So these were reasons for me tobe like, let me just do these
and see what happens, you know.
And, you know, sometimes with,like, this is just an example.
But, you know, one of theorganizations I worked with
Satrang is the South Asian queerorganization that has been
(10:25):
organizing in Los Angeles for 25years, you know, and they would
have these parties, andeverybody would come out to
them. And it would be like, abig Bollywood or something like
that something very Indian,South Asian, or more north,
(10:46):
northern Indian, right, or, youknow, what I'm talking about.
So, I would come there as a, asa first generation American,
right, and not really know howto connect with these folks.
Right? And I was like, oh, youknow, I would just come to
support but I didn't really lovethe music, I didn't get it,
(11:07):
there wasn't my part of myculture, right. And then I, I
kept going to these just as asupporter, just as somebody who
would, you know, knew that therewere like, brown folks, queer
folks party. And at theseparties, I would see like people
(11:29):
wiling out, like, it was almostlike, that amount of freedom to
just be queer and brown and openabout it, and just let, letting
go of everything was almost toomuch freedom, it was almost like
we have people like eithergetting really drunk or like,
(11:50):
you know, different things likethat. And so I was like, There's
something clearly missing here,if we're not able to provide
another sort of space outside ofthe party space. And I brought
the idea of the workshop to theorganizers, and everybody's
(12:12):
like, Oh, no, I don't know. Andthen, you know, like, and I
said, look at, you don't have topay me for this sort of school
route. Let me just do it. Andsure enough, it was like such a
beautiful, deep, profoundexperience. And I made all of
the workshop participants,invite people they normally
(12:32):
would not invite to, to thispublic reading, right. So we had
people coming in that room thatwere probably haters, or people
who were coworkers and didn'tknow that their friend was
queer, or whatever. And theywere all mobbed up, we had over
100 people in this joint. Andstory by story we shared and it
(12:56):
changed, like, what washappening in that room changed
people. Like, they were gettingtheir freedom, you know, and
then, and then that word of itgot around them, or whatever.
And it was actually like peoplewho usually went to the parties
(13:17):
who actually came to the readingthat were like, Oh, my God, I
didn't realize I needed to behere. And then they would sign
up for the workshop, the nextschool room, you know. And I
think that it's a, it's a sadthing. And I brought this up on
that panel that we were on, butyou cannot quantify the impact
of community based artists andthese and these types of
(13:40):
workshop settings. And so youreally aren't ever going to get
the full scope of how profoundthese experiences are, like its
arts making. Its writing. Youit's a process is a decolonial
process that is occurring in thelike, it's happening
(14:00):
strategically, because I'm thefacilitator, but it's also just
happening on a on a deep level,just by the converging of
people, you know. And so, sorry,I don't mean to talk so long,
but I'm saying that let's dothis kind of thing is what like,
it makes me so sad that we can'tuse metrics to prove that these
(14:24):
things are life changing, trulytransformative experiences, you
know, and not just for me, youknow, because recently I haven't
really been teaching thecourses. I have a lot of
mentees. But but, you know, todo this where it's easier for me
(14:47):
to walk with a mentee. I don't,I'm not getting paid. They might
buy me lunch or a coffee, do itI'm saying and it's more
sustainable for me than it is toactually do the workshops with
no money. Yeah, you know,absolutely. So. So yeah, that's,
that's my two cents. I met a
Alex Iantaffi (15:09):
beautiful as a beautiful two cents, you know,
and it's just that what you weretalking, I was thinking about
how much healing that brings,right? I mean, I'm a therapist
in terms of what I do with myday job. And one thing that
keeps, you know, hitting me isjust how finally, kind of
(15:31):
Western traditionalpsychotherapy is catching up to
healing traditions, right?
Because I really feel like thistherapists were part of, we're
just the latest manifestation ofhealers, you know, under this
capitalist, white supremacistworld, but really, people need
healing, you know, and actually,what's happening now is that
we're coming back full circle,in some ways in there is this
(15:53):
interest in somatic and art andbringing the body you know, and
I was like, of course, you know,this is, you know, I didn't grow
up in a therapy culture where Igot my healing was through
community worship, that ofcourse, it got problematic
because right, it was anexclusionary worship for me as a
trans person, but movingtogether, seeing you with people
(16:17):
dancing with people. And thenwhen I came out as queer, where
I got my healing was dancing atthe club, was also problematic,
because people were also tryingto find their healing through
alcohol and substance use. But Ifound a lot of my healing
through connecting throughdancing and moving and or queer
choir, you know, those are theways we feed our soul. Right?
(16:39):
poetry readings, all of that. Soam I, as you were talking with
like, yes, yes, yes. Sorry, thatwas a long comment on your two
cents. But there you go. Wetouch just a little bit like you
mentioned, representation,right? We started with the power
of story, but there's also thispower of representation. And you
(17:00):
have been, you can have a numberof like shows and as well as
doing your own solo work. Why doyou think it's important for you
as a, you know, Tamil Sri LankanAmerican trans queer actor to be
out there and be visible? Andfor more and more diverse
(17:21):
representation, because in away, I feel like 20 years ago,
you know, with trans people, itwas like the Highlander
syndrome, that can only be one,right. And now we're finally in
a place where maybe there can belike, a few of us in a show,
right? Lately, somebody waslike, we need the Alison Bechdel
Test. But for trans people, youknow, are there several trans
(17:42):
people? Do they have names? Arethey talking to each other? And
they're not just to like, die orbe like a plot point? You know
what I mean? So yeah, tell me alittle bit about your thoughts
about representation. From yourpoint of view, as somebody who
is an actor, and who said,they're representing in some
ways,
D'Lo (18:02):
yeah, I, I feel that the more stories we have out there,
the better. And in thisconversation around
representation, it's also like,I'm not happy with just any kind
(18:23):
of representation, like I neededto be specifically like, like,
mindfully done, right. And Ithink that Hollywood, bless
Hollywood's heart might not getit right, the majority of the
time. And yet, we fight to havemore truer representation. And
(18:54):
I'm seeing all of this stuff assort of like a preface to the
fact that like, I've been inthis game and I was, you know,
right when the beginning of thattrans wave started about 10
years ago. Yep. was doing a lotaround representation and
whatnot. And I have had thehardest time in this industry
(19:15):
landing an agent orrepresentation. I've had some
here and there but the only workthat I felt like I could put out
there and and do it on my ownname and who is my is my own
personal work right likeeverything else that was bigger
than that was scripted wouldtake a lot more money and it has
(19:38):
I've definitely doled out enoughof my own money to to do things.
I I know that there is a lane todo that. But there's very few
people who are on that path evennow. And the amount of power
they wield is even less andtypically is in the hands of a
(19:59):
lot of white, queer people,right? And so and I'm not mad at
that, because I have a lot offriends, acquaintances,
colleagues that are all, youknow, that are white and trends
that are white and queer. Andthey're they're making headway,
you know, and I'm so gratefulfor that. But I think that when
(20:24):
when I like, I think recently,because I've been in a lot of
conversations aroundrepresentation. I don't mind
that there are people who arenot trans or queer, who are
collaborating with me on storiesthat uplift marginalized voices.
(20:46):
I don't, they don't need to beonly queer, they don't need to
be only. I mean, in my heart, Iwant to contest this is me. This
is just me. But I only want tobe creating with other bipoc.
Folks, you know what I'm saying?
Like, but I'm not opposed tocollaborations that are that
(21:11):
that, that need a special eyethat may be I'm not getting
within my own circles. Sorry,I'm gonna go off tangent. On
tangent, do they say that? Whoknows?
Alex Iantaffi (21:27):
I don't know, you can go on or off wherever you
want.
D'Lo (21:30):
But I think that when we when I've been having these
conversations aboutrepresentation, I what I really
want to say is representrepresentation matters. And it
also is not the only thing thatmatters. It matters if it's done
in a way that is really likeable to penetrate and change
(21:53):
things or empower people. Andit's not just about sticking one
like you said as the plot lineor whatever. We joked on one
panel that we're we want to seeshows where there's more than
one trans, trans queer person.
And then I thought, Well, whydon't we take all the characters
that are just the one transperson on the show and then
create a show around theirindividual characters? But But
(22:16):
where I want to land with thisquestion is, again, back to
personal freedom? Yes, I thinkthat we have to pick and choose
our battles, and some battlesare done on an industry level.
And some battles are done on acommunity based level and some
(22:38):
battles are taking place fromwithin our hearts. And I think
that the, the, if we, ifeverybody's like, I need to see
me in that medium. And then I'mnot going to be otherwise I
won't see myself in the way thatI want to be seeing myself, then
that's the biggest problem.
(22:59):
Yeah, is that what we ingest?
Doesn't necessarily have to comefrom that. Like, I know, for me,
what I ingested came from stageand from the page, you know, and
so in that way, I think thatrepresentation all across the
board matter, but it's not justwho we're seeing on the screen.
I know that that's so important,but it's not just that, you
(23:23):
know,
Alex Iantaffi (23:26):
oh, absolutely cannot be the be all and end all
and like you said alsorepresentation as like, what
kind of representation right? Isit intentional? Is it mindful?
Is it transformative? You know,you talked about the
transformative power of story,right? Is a stereotypical or is
it transformative? Is it youknow, and also who's writing
those characters? Right? It'snot just the actors, but who's
(23:48):
in the writing room? Yes. Imean, those for writing rooms,
everybody's on strike at themoment, but still on strike,
right. I've lost track of newslately. But, you know, it's so
complex, you know? Yeah, becauseotherwise you get visibility,
and being targeted for thatvisibility without that change,
(24:11):
which I think in some way we'reseeing in trans community right
now, right, there was thattipping point, you know, Laverne
Cox on the cover of Time, all ofthose beautiful things, you
know, I'm in my 50s, I'vedefinitely seen trans and queer
people, you know, be much morevisible in ways that I never
expected, potentially, in mylifetime. And I've also seen the
(24:35):
backlash on that, you know, andI saw like, then who suffers the
most right? They're gonna be thefolks in our community who have
the least access and the leastprivilege and so it becomes, I
know, it's complicated. As manythings are in life.
D'Lo (24:49):
I'm so happy that there is so much more representation and
I'm like, but what are we doingfor our people on a deep level,
you know, exactly how is thishow is this helping If we're
already on the margins, but thenthere's even margins within that
margin, you know?
Alex Iantaffi (25:08):
And we have to be at the center.
D'Lo (25:09):
Yeah. Okay to be in the center. And so that's why I'm
always like personal freedom,personal freedom, because it's
personal freedom to me before Iused to hear that. And I'd be
like, well, how does that attachto the rest of the world? And
then I realized, oh, no, thisattaches to the rest of the
world in such a profound way.
Because, again, it's when we arehealing in communities, when
we're creating in community,it's when we're like, then we
(25:32):
become the healthiest. Right?
And then, and then the rippleeffect is grant, you know?
Alex Iantaffi (25:40):
Absolutely. Oh, I love that. I feel like, I feel
like there's 500 tangents in myhead. And that's okay. That
often happens. But talking aboutthose kind of personal story,
that personal freedom, I do wantto touch on your latest, I think
it's your latest solo show,right? To tea or not to tea. And
(26:02):
yeah, what is that about? Youknow, I'm not in California, so
I didn't get to see it. But itwas awesome. So yeah, tell us
about that show why you wroteit, what it means to you, all of
that good stuff.
D'Lo (26:15):
Yeah. To turn it was a solo show second of a trilogy
around. You know, what, myreflections on taking tea, the
choices that I made to take teaor or the decision process
behind that, but also like, youknow, what does beautiful
masculinity look like? We're, wealways throw around toxic
(26:37):
masculinity, but it's kind oflike, okay, like, that's just
patriarchy. Like, that's in theanswer. Anybody can be a toxic
masculine person. Yeah. But, butwhat is beautiful masculinity
mean? kind of flips it for thepeople who proudly ID as
masculine and, or a blend orwhatever, but some kind of
masculinity and say, okay, like,what is this? What does this
(26:59):
look like for me? So, I kind oftalked about, like, you know,
growing up and my, the sort ofunderstanding of masculinity
that I had, via TV and myculture and the culture that I
also my artistic community. Andthen I go into, you know, my
(27:22):
journey into, not into feminism,but as a feminist, because I
feel like a lot of people, youknow, I remember when I first
said this, but I feel like oneof my first feminist teachers
was Queen Latifah. And this wasas a young kid in the 80s,
listening to her lyrics as anMC, you know, and so, fast
(27:45):
forward to me, learning fromthese very incredible scholars,
slash artists, you know, thesethese feminist scholars that
wrote the bridge, call my back,and, you know, other other
beautiful books and poet poetrybooks. But when I talked to
these very same people in thesecommunities, and as I was a part
(28:08):
of these women's circles, I wasI was like, right before
millennial. And so what happensis that I started getting this
messaging, like, you don't wantto be a man, like, why would you
want to do that, like men arewhat's wrong with this world?
And etc, etc. So I drank enoughof that, to not really think
that I had a decision to youknow, like that I had decision
(28:31):
making power, because I waslike, Why do I want to do this?
Am I turning my back on womenand feminism, whatever. And, and
this and where I land is that,you know, I have to do what it
is, I'm the only person who isliving in this reality with this
with my past histories, whichyou know, twirling around in my
(28:53):
brain and in my heart, and ifthis is what I want to just kind
of see if this could besomething for me, then I'm going
to try that. And throw it backat these feminists who probably
didn't mean to be turfy butaccidentally were and say, Isn't
feminist men what you've alwayswished for? You know? And just
(29:18):
leave it at that, like I get theoptics, I get that masculine
women and people who are seen asmasculine women are, are like
examples of a fuck you, youknow, but, but it's like at what
cost? Our queer peoples we havesuch like, already, we're like,
(29:44):
oh, yeah, we're challenginggender norms. But we still have
a very binary way of looking atgender. And it's just the same
way that we do a lot of thingsand so meaning that it's just in
the ether, we smell it and likeit's an yes they're affecting
us. And so I, my work recentlyhas been around the
(30:06):
intersections of mental healthand masculinity and queerness,
of course, but you know, what?
What kind of invisible isolationhappens as you transition? The
flip side of visibility, and howare we like, are we just and
(30:27):
again, being subsumed into thiscommunity of people. And then
our needs are not ever broughtto light like, like a lot of
birch or stud, or masculine ofcenter, or AG, or whoever you
want to call it. Our needsweren't put up at the very top,
because we were being goodlovers of femmes and women, you
(30:50):
know. And so all of our shitjust gets tucked under someplace
else, and we have to try andfigure that out. And yet, we're
not because again, patriarchy,we're not talking to each other,
etc, etc. So, this is the workthat I'm trying to do right now
I have this project as sort oflike, a next step to this, it's
not a solo based piece, but it'scalled cry with you, or the
(31:14):
uncles project in which myself,and I've already prototyped at
once, just with me, but what Idream of is having a whole bunch
of men of color, from the wholeGender Spectrum, to offer to
hold space for other people as apublic installation, or a
(31:35):
busking project. And so, thatpiece is, you know, the question
that's framing this piece is,why can men be seen as nurturers
or as safe spaces? And so kindof throwing back the onus of our
our own people to take care ofone another, right? Because and
(31:58):
not have the the burden ofcaretaking to be on the
shoulders of femmes and womenall the time.
Alex Iantaffi (32:09):
So beautiful and, and also it just kind of I have
so many feelings about listeningto you talking about that.
Because, you know, having beenbrought up as a second wave
feminist, you know, I worked sohard like, oh, is this my, you
know, internalized misogyny, youknow, I wanted to really
(32:30):
celebrate and embrace myfemininity coming out was really
hard. It took me into my, youknow, early 30s To finally be
like, I'm definitely genderqueer, you know, on the
masculine end of the spectrum,but also on a very effeminate
masculinity. You know, I, theway I explained it to my mom was
(32:50):
having a hard time understandingwhat was happening, honestly,
with my sexuality and gender aslike, you know, Mom, if I'd been
born as this boy, I would be oneof those cis boys who were like,
into music. I was in Barbies,and like, super queer and
couldn't hide their quickness.
That's my is still masculinity.
(33:11):
But it's also there as a when Ithink when masculine people are
nurturing, caring, is seen asalmost stripping away the
masculinity, right? Becausethere's so much, you know, what
we call over cabling and somatictherapy, of like, femininity
with nurturance, right? So if amasculine person is nurturing,
(33:32):
then that almost strips away,their masculinity is so messed
up. You know, and it's sotraumatic, so
D'Lo (33:42):
basic, it's so sick.
Alex Iantaffi (33:45):
Yes. Like,
D'Lo (33:47):
what are we doing here?
Alex Iantaffi (33:49):
Right. I love that. This Mother's Day, you
know, I got this sweet tax frommy oldest kid was admin, the
stories I share about her withtheir consent was almost 20. You
know, and it was like, HappyMother's Day to my two dads,
right? Because, like, we alwaystalk about being a mom is like a
job and actually, you know,like, the medical parent with
(34:13):
assessment man is much more of aman than I ever was, you know,
I'm much more like the fun,rough and tumble but also like
provider type of person, youknow, in my family, so much more
like traditionally masculinerole, despite like my feminine
masculinity, whereas my sis malepartner is definitely the mom,
(34:34):
right? It's really hard for himto be away from home and family
for the first time yet to beseparated from the baby was
really hard. You know, it was astay at home parent for a few
years. But you know, and on onehand, people are like, Oh, that
is so beautiful. And on theother hand, I'm like, but that
often is not what is wanted. Ialso see how people move around
(34:56):
that the confusion and thechallenge And like you said, you
know, wasn't a point of addingfeminist men, but then when you
get feminist men, often there'sso much suspicion, there's so
much pushback, there's so muchlike, you're not man enough,
whatever that means, right? Idon't know. I see. So, yes. And
(35:17):
then of my new layer or theother complexity of
racialization it's not it'snever just about gender, right,
never just about their gender.
It's also about when racializedwhether we're disabled or now
whether, you know, what theclass statuses, all that kind of
stuff, it just gets so messy.
And yes. Like you said, it's sosimple.
D'Lo (35:39):
It to me, it's, it's so simple, but when I say it's so
basic, I'm also saying like,it's your, your mate, you're
trivializing the complexitiesand the depth in which people
can exist, you know, like, yes.
Why, why is it that when menshow nurturing side that they're
(36:03):
stripped of their being seen asmasculine? And that's not even
about somebody having autonomyand how they even see their own
masculinity like,
Alex Iantaffi (36:15):
yes. Yeah, and it's that, like you said, is the
personal freedom that it's alsocollective freedom, right,
because when we can letourselves be ourselves and let
other people be themselves, thenthere is the collective freedom
and that of expansiveness, andchoice and beauty. You know, I
(36:38):
love that you talked aboutbeautiful masculinity, because I
think that's that authenticity,that vulnerability is beautiful.
And in a way, it's really deniedin a lot of ways for for a lot
of masculine folks. Yeah, Ithink for masculine folks of
color in lots of different ways.
In his Yeah, it is so simple, socomplex. So basic, so
foundational, all at the sametime. Yeah. Yes. So I know, you
(37:01):
know, we're kind of going alittle bit all over the map. But
I think there's also a littlebit of a theme around, around
freedom, about expansion, aboutaround beauty, as well, right,
the beauty of transformation,the beauty of story. So I'm
curious about nowadays, youknow, we're leaving through yet
(37:24):
another moment, and I say yetanother moment, because this is
not the first time in historyand unfortunately, won't be the
last day where we're seeingreally heightened you know,
transphobia really heightenedqueer phobia. I'm hearing some
discourse I hadn't heard forsome time, right? Being our
communities, being labeled asgroomers and all this really
(37:50):
ugly things that, you know, I'vebeen used again and again,
around against people andagainst queer people,
especially. So how do you findthat beauty and joy in your
everyday life nowadays? BecauseI've been really curious about
how we, as a community are alsofinding breast and beauty and
joy, to be able to get throughyet yet another time. Like I
(38:16):
said,
D'Lo (38:20):
great question. I was just doing a show this morning for a
group and the title of it wascalled queer joy. And I know I
talk about queer Joy a lot as acomic. But I often like, for me
queer, joy, and joy in general,where I find it is like, with my
(38:40):
beloved, I'm going to alwaystalk about community and people
because that's my number onelove, you know, yes, outside of
the days, and so
Alex Iantaffi (38:51):
that's fair.
There's a connection, they're
D'Lo (38:56):
all collectively usable today at the same time, then,
you know, life wouldn't beperfect. It's so so I feel like
for me, outside of, you know, mypeople, it's my people in
nature, my nature, like being innature, we, you know, doing
(39:19):
things like that, right. But youmentioned this thing about like,
we're in this moment in time,that is like so hard. And I know
that I'm in a safe state, quote,unquote. But I can't imagine the
(39:41):
depths of the trauma occurringin people's hearts right now,
because, for me, as old as I am,my internalized transphobia and
queer phobia are like hittingthese items. because I'm also
(40:01):
listening to people spew thisstuff. And I'm like, oh my god,
like, and it's making me go allsorts of different places. And I
almost have to snap myself outof it. So I thought, well, what
is it? If it this is happeningto me in a safe state as
somebody who's out worthy, like,you know, I'm out there being
(40:23):
outspoken about stuff, then thatmeans that people who are even
like me, are also dealing withthis to some degree, right. And
I think and so what I wastelling everybody is, I was
like, I think that this ispride. Yes, this is Pride Month,
and we're all like, you know,but I think it's more important
(40:48):
than ever before. Because weassume that things have gotten
better. So that's why it's evenmore important to pick up the
phone and call people and tellthem. Without you. I wouldn't
have been challenged in thisway. Or I know myself more
because of this, and Iappreciate the way you walk in
(41:09):
this world. And do you get whatI'm saying? Like, those little
touch points to people who areunsung heroes? Who should really
be some heroes all day everyday, you know? Because it takes
courage to be who you are everydamn day. And I think that
(41:29):
that's something that you mightnot know, for yourself. It's
something that I don't know, formyself, do you get what I'm
saying? But it takes courage tojust be who you fucking are
every day. And so I feel likethat's the antidote to not
having joy is to remember joy,and in the reflections of
(41:53):
ourselves, right, which areother people, our community, our
best friends, our chosen family,you know, sometimes our families
of origin, but generally not.
You know, they're trying,they're trying now more than do
their best. They're doing theirbest. But yeah, like, that's,
that, to me is, you know, I findjoy in my, my young little
nieces and nephews, like I find,but it's always about like, that
(42:17):
energy and that joy that islike, it's there, it's palpable
between two bodies or a group ofbodies, you know, and that, to
me, is what, that joy isrevolutionary. It's what keeps
me alive. You know, on all thedifferent levels, you know,
Alex Iantaffi (42:43):
I really hear that sometimes people are like,
how are you still doing? Are youstill engaging in community are
over 50 A lot of people like,you know, just drift away from
organizing or drift away fromcommunity engagement as we get
older, and I might, because Idon't know how to live without,
I need that, you know what Imean? It's like, I need my
(43:03):
elders. I also need my youngerpeople to learn from and call me
on my bullshit, which,thankfully, and I thank them
every time. You know, like, Idon't know how not to like, this
is how I survived. That's aqueer person. Yeah, this is how
like, iron relationships,everything like, what else is
(43:24):
there? You know, if notrelationships with our kin,
like, which is people and aswell as nature, the green
Bloods, right? Yes. Well, and onthat note, because I know you've
got another engagement to go onto, I just want to express my
gratitude for your wisdom andbeauty and time today, but also,
(43:45):
just generally about thebeautiful work you create and
how you move through the world.
And just I'm so grateful forthis connection that we found
and for spending a little bitmore time together today. Thank
you so much.
D'Lo (43:58):
Oh, thank you so much, Alex, I had the best time I
think we're pretty much the sameperson.
Alex Iantaffi (44:05):
Same person with just different histories,
different experiences, but Ilove it. I love it. I can't wait
to share more stories. Fortoday, are gonna say goodbye and
thank you to your listeners forfor listening for watching. If
you're on YouTube, as ever, letme know what you think about the
(44:27):
episode. Subscribe, do yourrating do your thing. And thank
you for spreading and spread joyin your life in your community
in your relationship. Until nexttime,
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