July 18, 2025 • 62 mins
Have you ever wondered if trees and crops can grow together and actually benefit each other? Or maybe you've heard the term "agroforestry" and aren't quite sure what it means. Check out this week's Good Growing Podcast as we dig into the world of agroforestry with MJ Oviatt from the Savanna Institute. From windbreaks and riparian buffers to growing nuts, berries, and more, learn how blending trees with agriculture can boost biodiversity, protect soil and water, and even support your bottom line!
Watch us on YouTube: https://youtu.be/l0oVLH5i9Us
Skip to what you want to know:
00:35 - Welcome back, Ken. What's our agroforestry experience?
02:45 - Welcome, MJ Oviatt
06:34 - What is agroforestry? Does it work in Illinois?
10:29 - Is agroforestry focused on economics? Or ecology?
14:06 - What benefits does agroforestry provide to a farm or property?
17:42 - Are there barriers that keep property owners from incorporating agroforestry?
22:52 - What kind of plants can be used for windbreaks?
27:32 - Is there a wrong way to create a windbreak?
33:12 - What are riparian buffers? What are the benefits of these?
42:47 - Does the Savanna Institute have examples of agroforestry in practice? Do you provide education for landowners?
49:31 – Savana Institute's work on hazelnuts
54:18 - MJ, what species would you want in your own agroforestry project?
57:46 - Wrap-up, thank yous, what's up next week, and goodbye!
Savanna Institute: https://www.savannainstitute.org/
Perennial AF Podcast: https://www.savannainstitute.org/perennialaf/
MJ Oviatt: https://www.savannainstitute.org/staff-mj-oviatt/
Contact us!
Chris Enroth: cenroth@illinois.edu
Ken Johnson: kjohnso@illinois.edu
Check out the Good Growing Blog: https://go.illinois.edu/goodgrowing
Subscribe to the weekly Good Growing email: https://go.illinois.edu/goodgrowingsubscribe
Any products or companies mentioned during the podcast are in no way a promotion or endorsement of these products or companies.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Enroth (00:05):
Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris
Enroth, horticulture educatorwith University of Illinois
Extension coming at you fromMacomb, Illinois, and we have
got a great show for you today.Gonna be talking with MJ Oviatt
about agroforestry.Agroforestry. I think I know two
of those terms that have beensmashed together to create that
one term, but we're gonna learnall about it today.
(00:27):
And you know I'm not doing thisby myself. I am joined as always
every single week byhorticulture educator Ken
Johnson in Jacksonville. Welcomeback to Illinois, Ken. We're
happy to see you again.
Ken Johnson (00:38):
Hello. Thanks. It's it's been a while.
Chris Enroth (00:40):
It sure has. Your beard's grown five inches since
I've seen you last. And thenyou'd cut it, and it's grown
five more inches. So yeah. Howwas the how are the trips and
travels for you?
Ken Johnson (00:52):
It was good. It was it's kinda rough coming back.
Spent a lot of time out Westwhere there's no humidity or
very little humidity. And in themountains, were much cooler
temperatures. So, you know,getting used to 70 degree
temperatures in there in the dayand fifties at night.
It was a little rough comingback to mid to upper eighties
and nasty humidity, but we'll bewe'll get used to it again.
Chris Enroth (01:18):
Well, before the show, Ken was talking about his
his trip to Death Valley, andI'm like he's like, oh, it's a
106 degrees. And I'm like, oh,so, like, 88 in Illinois with,
you know, 90% humidity, youknow, especially with all the
corn sweating right now. So it'sit is humid out there. And your
garden looks good, Ken?
Ken Johnson (01:37):
Yeah. I I walked around a little bit. It doesn't
look nearly as bad as I hadfeared. The the mulch is holding
up. So if nothing else, mulchyour gardens before you go on
vacation.
You'll save yourself a lot ofheadaches when you get back.
Mhmm.
Chris Enroth (01:52):
Well, there there you go, folks. You've heard it
here many times before. Mulch isyour friend. Use it. Alright.
Well, our topic this week, weare going to dive in
agroforestry and the topicsabout agroforestry, kind of the
the the subtopics, we shouldsay. And agroforestry, that's
(02:12):
one of those subjects I've I'veread about. I've I've learned a
little bit about it, but I'venever really, like, dove into
it, you know, very much, youknow, just kind of knowing what
it is in the back of my head.Ken, have you any experience
with agroforestry?
Ken Johnson (02:28):
I'd say I'm in a pretty similar situation. Read
about it a little bit, buthaven't really gotten into the
weeds too much, so to speak.
Chris Enroth (02:37):
Yes. Yes. Well, I'm glad we're we are both on
the same page then. So I thinkit's time to introduce our
special guest for today, andthat is MJ Oviatt. MJ is with
the Savannah Institute, and sheis an Illinois agroforestry
educator.
You are in Champaign, Urbana. SoMJ, welcome to the show.
MJ Oviatt (02:57):
Thank you. Glad to be here.
Chris Enroth (03:00):
Well, we are happy to have you. Now I before we get
into the the nitty gritty hereon agroforestry, gotta get to
know a little bit about you. Sotell us a little bit about
yourself, what do you do at theSavannah Institute?
MJ Oviatt (03:15):
Sure. Yeah. I'm MJoviet. I've been in this
position. I'm now going into mythird season.
I'm sure you all are familiarwith referring to your life as
through the seasons. So thirdsummer with them. But my road to
getting here has been long, andit's very entrenched in the
(03:36):
Champaign Urbana community. Igrew up in the suburbs of
Chicago, but I went to U of Ifor NRAS, natural resource
conservation or natural resourceenvironmental science, and then
got really involved with thelocal farming scene in town. I
don't know if you've everinterviewed anyone from the
(03:58):
local farms of Champaign Urbana,but I worked at pretty much all
of them.
I worked at Sola Gradia andDelight Flower Farm, and I
worked at the student farm thereat U of I. But when I was in
college, I was taking a lot ofhorticulture classes. And at the
time, there were some professorsthat were really interested in
(04:20):
agroforestry, and I thought itwas just the coolest idea. I
really care about theenvironment and really wanted to
do some restoration work, and Ialso wanted to keep growing
food. So it really felt like Igot to do the best of both of
those things withinagroforestry.
(04:41):
So when I graduated, I worked atthese farms, but my intention
was always to get a jobprofessionally doing
agroforestry stuff. So aboutfive years ago, I think that's
fine. I'll say five years. Istarted working at Canopy Farm
Management, which is a startupthat came out of Savannah
(05:05):
Institute. Now I was doing,like, field technician work with
them, and then this positionopened up at Savannah Institute
to be an educator.
And so now that's what I dothese days. And I think my job
is very similar to probably whatyou guys do at extension. I'm,
like, an educator for anonprofit. I put on field days.
(05:27):
I do education materials.
I don't run our podcast, but Ido contribute to to ours
sometimes. And, yeah, do a lotof adult education. So that's
the gist.
Chris Enroth (05:44):
Excellent. And what's the name of the podcast
with the the it's SavannahInstitute.
MJ Oviatt (05:50):
The Savannah Institute podcast is called
Perennial AF. AF stands Of for
Chris Enroth (05:58):
course. Of course. I wouldn't think it stood for
anything else.
MJ Oviatt (06:01):
Yes. AF is agroforestry in my world.
Chris Enroth (06:05):
I love it. That's great. Oh, yeah. I and I I I
have been to a couple of the thelocal farms over in the
Champaign County area. One ofthem I remember was a goat
creamery.
That was an interesting place.Some really interesting ice
creamer. I think it was icecream. A sweet creamy treat.
I'll call it that.
Maybe not quite ice cream.
MJ Oviatt (06:24):
Yes. Berry fruits, I think, is what you're thinking
of, and they're incorporatingagroforestry systems at that
farm, which is really cool.Cool.
Ken Johnson (06:35):
Alright. So let's get on to the the topic for
today. So agroforestry, let'swhat is, I guess, agroforestry,
and does it work in the Prairiesof Illinois?
MJ Oviatt (06:47):
Sure. Good questions. I'll give you the USDA
definition of agroforestry andthen kind of give a, like, a
human answer to that. Mhmm. Sothe USDA recognizes agroforestry
as a legitimate agriculturalsystem management style, and
(07:08):
they define it as theintentional integration of trees
and shrubs with crops and orlivestock for economic,
environmental, social benefit,so for lots of different
benefits.
And that can look a milliondifferent ways. There's millions
of different kinds of species.It depends on where you live.
(07:33):
Agroforestry is practiced allover the world. It's probably
the original form of farming,period.
We already eat a lot of thingsfrom trees and utilize trees in
our landscapes. But these days,especially in the Corn Belt and
in Illinois, our agriculture isso intense that we don't always
(07:56):
incorporate other species otherthan the crop that we're growing
or the livestock that we'retending to. So agroforestry in
North America, agroforestrytemperate agroforestry is what
we do, is newer because we'velost it since, like, The United
(08:17):
States basically was formed,and, it's kind of been thrown to
the wayside. So we're kindabringing something back. But, of
course, we utilize a lot of thenew technology that is being
utilized today by other kinds offarmers.
And now with all of our mappingsoftware and and different
science, like, it it looksdifferent than it did two
(08:38):
hundred years ago. And then ifit it does work in Illinois, I
think on the last long episodethat you all had with Ryan and
Emily, Ryan was describing whatthe Illinois landscape looked
like prior to, like, Europeancolonization. And we're called
(09:00):
the Prairie State for a reason.We had prairie everywhere, but
there are were definitelypockets of trees. And Savannah
Institute's name comes from thatpart of the landscape.
We had a sort of Savannah acrossthe Midwest, especially in
(09:21):
Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana,Iowa. I don't know if you've
ever done a podcast or learnedabout this, but Champaign Urbana
itself was once the big grove,and it was actually pretty
forested and had a lot of trees.But not everything was just kind
of like the Great Plains, notrees. There were trees in
(09:43):
different areas across Illinoisand coming up through Southern
Illinois. Not necessarilyforested, but 10 to 30% cover
tree cover, shrubs, wild plums,and hazelnuts, and things like
that.
So agroforestry isn't just purerestoration, but we do recognize
(10:06):
that Illinois did have morewoody things in the landscape.
It wasn't just prairie, but,yeah, we're we'll get into it.
It's more than restoration, butit's also not strange to be
bringing trees back to ourlandscape in Illinois. It makes
a lot of sense.
Ken Johnson (10:26):
K.
Chris Enroth (10:29):
Now I I would say the when I get into the world of
forestry, if I I stick on that,and it's kind of it dovetailing
in what you just said, there'salways this goal of, are we
doing this for the money, likethe economics? What what can we
pull from the land? Or are wedoing this for the ecological
(10:52):
benefits? So how doesagroforestry play that? Because
in in forest, like, just generalforestry, when I talk to a
forestry, it's like, hey.
It's either this or this. It'slike, can't we have both? Like,
you know, why why are our goalsseem to be competing with each
other? So so, MJ, are we doingthis for money? We're doing this
for ecology?
Is there another thing that I'mnot taught knowing about here?
(11:14):
Why are we doing this?
MJ Oviatt (11:15):
Well, I work for a nonprofit, so I'm definitely not
doing it for Johnny.
Chris Enroth (11:19):
There you go. That's that's how it's solved.
MJ Oviatt (11:21):
Happy at my job. No. But, seriously, it this is kind
of a funny answer, but we'rereally trying to meet it right
in the middle between theenvironmental benefit and the
profitability of these systems.We're recognizing that farming
is a form of land management.When I was at U of I, the thing
(11:48):
that I learned the most wasnatural resource management.
That was what I was taught. Andthe way I was taught that was
preparing us for being landmanagers for nature preserves
and state parks, national parks,and things like that. But when I
looked around and saw that, youknow, most of what is outside of
(12:09):
campus is cornfields, I waslike, well, what about this
land? And that's what all of mycolleagues at Savannah Institute
and the folks that startedSavannah Institute were were
wondering. Like, we can't justhave these state parks and these
nature preserves.
Is there something some way thatwe can take the benefits that
come from these high qualityecosystems and incorporate them
(12:32):
into our production systems andkind of meet in the middle and
benefit both, which we'll getinto with the two practices
we're really gonna highlighttoday. So we're I often say this
in all of my presentations iswe're trying to find that puzzle
piece that's like or thatperfect middle point where you
(12:56):
can get a lot of those ecosystembenefits from the landscape that
you'd get from conservation, butyou're not completely just
leaving something still. You canalso harvest things and create
some revenue off of thatlandscape. And maybe it's not
the same as commodity and notpure, like, economic benefit.
(13:22):
But in the long run, like, wecan see that that may be even
more economically beneficialthan what we're what is the
status quo in most of our state.
So and then the other thing onthat point, I think people often
think I'm a forester, whichmaybe one day I will become one.
(13:44):
I don't know. But my backgroundis in, like, annual cropping.
And I know some about timberproduction, but that's really
not our focus. It's more soenhancing landscape and then
doing some fruit and nutproduction is also, like, a
majority of our work.
Ken Johnson (14:06):
So what would what would be, like, a few examples
of the benefits if somebody wereto do this, like, on a farm or
if they have, you know, a fewacres of land and they wanted to
incorporate agroforestry ontotheir property?
MJ Oviatt (14:20):
Sure. There's tons, and I'll say from this
perspective of a landowner or afarmer first, and then we can
probably also talk about just,like, general benefits to
everybody that comes with thesepractices. But the cool thing
about agroforestry systems isthat you are thinking about
(14:41):
production. This isn't like,okay. Let's go in and just
completely restore the nativelandscape.
There's an element of that, butit's also like, okay. What can
we grow here that will do welland we can also sell? So today,
I really wanna focus on the twoedge of field practices that we
(15:02):
promote a lot of in Illinois,which are windbreaks and
riparian buffers. And so, like,with a windbreak, you're
incorporating a row or multiplerows of trees onto the edges of
your farm property, and thosetrees will actually help the
crop on the inside. They winderosion can be really
(15:27):
detrimental to our crops, andyou see this a lot in the Great
Plains, but we've also beennoticing it in Illinois,
especially these dust stormsthat have also been happening
that is coming from, like,reducing the number of
windbreaks we have on ourlandscapes and perennials that
we have on our landscapes.
(15:47):
Trees can stop the wind, blockit, protect the inside crops.
They also help lowerevapotranspiration. So things
that are growing close to treeswill retain their water more.
And as we see, like, big flexfluctuations in temperatures and
(16:10):
and long drought, that's evenmore important to have low rates
of evapotranspiration. Keep thewater in the ground.
So trees really help with soilhealth, and that's from wind
erosion and water erosion aswell. They retain water with
(16:30):
their perennial roots like wewould see also with, like,
prairie strips and things likethat. But prairies only get so
tall, and trees can reallyprotect longer. Sorry. My hand's
getting caught between in mygreen screen.
(16:50):
Trees are taller and thus can,like, protect further into the
field than shorter things. Andmaybe one other point, which I'm
happy to talk about this stuff.I'm wearing my tree crop shirt
today. But you can incorporatethings things that you also
harvest in those riparianbuffers and windbreaks. So say
(17:13):
you are interested in doing,like, a specialty crop of some
kind or you have some a partnerthat you can work with that will
then sell that specialty crop,you can plant, like, rows of I
have here June berries orservice berries and harvest
those or, like, black currantsor pecans or chestnuts or things
(17:33):
like that.
So it's diversifying a farm. Noteverybody's interested in that,
but there's potential there inthose markets.
Chris Enroth (17:43):
Okay. You had mentioned maybe not everyone's
interested in in this particularin agroforestry. But you know
what? I I love that we'relooking at windbreaks in
riparian buffers today becauseIllinois is both windy and just
it's flat. Drainage is an issuehere.
Like, you have to reallyconsider where your water's
(18:03):
going and, you know, how it'sflowing off of your field. Like,
those are huge considerationsfor us. So, you know, if people
aren't as interested in this,why aren't we seeing as much of
this throughout the Illinoislandscape? Or or, like, what
what are the barriers keepingpeople from incorporating more
agroforestry practices?
MJ Oviatt (18:23):
Yeah. There are a lot of barriers. I think the largest
one is that there's this notionthat you really can't take any
land out of annual cropproduction. And I think people
are very into having really highyield, and that makes a lot of
(18:44):
sense. It's very easy tounderstand concept.
It's like, you know, sports,which I'm a big sports fan. I
understand you wanna have thehighest score. And when you take
maybe, like, 5% of your fieldout of that production, you may
see a yield decrease, but that'snot always the case. And I think
(19:06):
people their intuition or logictells them, well, if I stop
cropping a little bit of myland, then I'm gonna have a
yield decrease. But when we seethe like, what's actually
happening, that interfacebetween the trees and the crop,
because of that wind protection,you can see increase in yield
(19:28):
and, like, less plant stressbecause it's having its brother
block the wind and and create abetter microclimate for the
crop.
So I think the notion is, again,oh, I can't afford to take any
land out of production, but thereality is ecosystems are
(19:51):
complicated, and there's waysthat we can incorporate
different strata of plants ontothe landscape, and it actually
is beneficial for the thingyou're trying to grow even
though you're growing less ofit. But the other big barriers
besides just that that culturalelement are land ownership.
(20:14):
Nobody wants to invest in atree. They're not gonna be
reaping the benefits of thosetrees for the next twenty years.
So if you don't own the land oryou don't have a strong lease
agreement with the landowner,this is we see this as all
conservation.
Like, people don't wanna getinto a CRP contract. You don't
(20:36):
wanna put in that work if you'renot gonna get to reap the
benefits. And I think maybethere's a lot of landowners that
aren't familiar withagroforestry or how nice it
would be to incorporate underyour landscape. That's something
I'd really love to talk withpeople with. So if you're a
landowner, a nonoperatinglandowner, hit me up.
(20:57):
And then maybe the last thing issomething that I touched on with
what I was saying before istrees are slow. Like, they grow
and live way longer than humansdo. They're like, we have
multiple generations when theyhave their one generation, so
(21:18):
they're a long term investment.If you plant a windbreak, you
probably won't start gettingbenefits, that full mature tree
benefit for a decade. There'ssome species that I'll talk
about that grow really fast andcan create that benefit in the
first five years.
But for these slow growing butreally dense windbreak trees
(21:46):
like evergreens. It takes them,like, twenty years to get to 20
feet tall. So there's governmentprograms that help offset those
costs, but it's kind of like aretirement account. So I want
people to be investing in treeslike they're investing in their
four zero one k. But, yeah, itjust needs to become a cultural
(22:10):
thing again, which it was.
Like, the dust pole, the answerwas windbreaks. Like, windbreaks
were planted all throughout theGreat Plains in the thirties and
the forties. It was, like, thelargest, like, federal land
management project ever done byFDR, and that was how the NRCS
(22:35):
was started. So there'sgenerations before us that are,
I think, more familiar with thebenefits, but we've kind of lost
that knowledge in time. So,yeah, that's a little added
bonus to that question, but wecould talk about that later if
you want.
Ken Johnson (22:53):
So kind of sticking with the the windbreaks. I think
when when most people think ofwindbreaks, they're thinking of
your your traditional pine orspruce trees. And and you
mentioned, you know, with yourshirt, there's just there's
other plants we can kind ofincorporate that and make it a
little more maybe multipurpose.I'm gonna talk about that a
little bit.
MJ Oviatt (23:13):
Yeah. Sure. Good question, Ken. The we still
utilize a lot of evergreens.Yeah.
I think anyone who's familiarwith the windbreak, if you're
really trying to create a livingbarrier, a living fence of sorts
using evergreens like spruce andeastern white pine. We use a lot
of arborvitae, white cedar aswell. Makes a lot of sense. They
(23:37):
create a really nice screen, andthat can be both for annual
crops, corn and soybeans, or forlivestock and buildings and
things like that. But what Ithink would be really awesome is
if we saw more than one rowwindbreaks, if people would do
three, five, seven rowwindbreaks.
(24:00):
Habitat corridors are arereally, really important, and we
don't always have those in ourlandscape. We we'll have some
nice, like, state parks ornature preserves, but then
there's no way for these largerfauna to travel between those
state parks. And this wassomething that was really
brought up when I was incollege. Like, this is something
(24:20):
that we really need to beworking on to make sure that
we're having our larger mammalshave habitat on the landscape.
So when you have, like, a three,four, five, seven row windbreak,
that allows for a lot morespecies and really cool species
that have lived here forthousands of years to keep doing
(24:46):
their business.
And that usually meansincorporating a lot of our
native stuff, oaks, hickory,walnut. We work heavily with our
local NRCS offices and do soiltests and things like that to
see what would have been nativeto whatever area you're in. And
(25:09):
then I mentioned earlier, youcan also incorporate things that
you're harvesting from. So youcould do a fruit row of some
sort, nuts. You can do thingsthat are floriculture, so, like,
willows and forsythia and youname it, like, roses even if you
(25:32):
want to.
But, again, if you're gonna dothings you're harvesting, you
probably still wanna protectthose things from the wind as
well. So not having it be justlike one row of chestnuts on the
edge of your farm field, theyprobably won't do so well. But
if that's incorporated intomultiple row system, then that
(25:56):
could be an added diversifiedincome stream of sorts. If
you're going through, like, oneof these government programs
that are conservation like, ourconservation program, like this
CRP, they have a species list,and they're gonna want you to do
(26:16):
very specific species. I don'tknow all the ins and outs of
that, so I'm not gonna, like, gotoo in-depth.
But things that are not nativeand are more horticultural in
nature, like, if you want applesor something like that, they
usually won't cost share, butsometimes they do. So you just
kinda have to check with yourlocal office. So, yeah, I can
(26:40):
give some examples of what wehave going on at some of our
demonstration farms. I'll justmake a quick plug right now. If
you come to our farm in Urbana,that is now in its fourth
season.
It's in, like, unincorporatedUrbana past Highcross Road. We
(27:03):
have 11 different windbreaksthere that are three row
windbreaks, and they're alldifferent kind of designs with
those. So you can come and seefor yourself what they look like
and maybe get a sense of whatyou can do.
Chris Enroth (27:18):
Excellent. And we will link below to the Savannah
Institute, MJ, if it's okay withyou, or you might throw your
email down there as well ifpeople want to reach out
directly to you. So, yeah, readlook in the notes below for
contact information. So I dohave a question. The the way
that I have taught things in thepast with extensions, so, like,
(27:40):
with trees, for example, is whatnot to dos.
That is because and maybe, Ken,you can back me up on this, that
people do not call us wheneverything is hunky dory or
everything looks good. Theyalways call us when there's a
problem. So I don't havepictures of good looking trees
or good looking plants. I haveall of the wrong things, all the
bad stuff. And I can use that asa teaching tool.
(28:02):
So I'm thinking now, MJ, ifsomeone has decided, well, you
know, maybe I will, you know,look at either at least drawing
it out or or looking at plantsor ordering plants for planting
a windbreak. What are somethings you don't wanna do when
you are designing thiswindbreak?
MJ Oviatt (28:22):
Good question, and I completely understand where
you're coming from, Chris. Ifyou hadn't yeah. What's wrong
with my tree? It's not doingthat's my family and my friends.
That's the those are the textsthat I got.
I'm sure you get those too. LikeOh, yeah. Why isn't my hydrangea
blooming? And I was like, Idon't know.
Chris Enroth (28:40):
Yep.
MJ Oviatt (28:40):
Fertilize it. That's usually what I say. Yes. But you
guys can tell me maybe later ifyou have any ideas on that. But
I'll answer your question first.
Some dos and don'ts, but mostlythe don'ts. I think the main
thing is something I touched on.You shouldn't grow try and grow
(29:03):
things that wouldn't naturallydo well. Like, do some heavy
research on what is native toyour landscape and understand
what is gonna grow well for you.Don't try and plant some exotic
species that might not do well.
(29:25):
Don't try and plant a chestnutwhere you have very poorly
drained soil. You're not gonnaget a lot of chestnuts. Like,
there's trees are particular,and each tree is different. Each
shrub is different on what pH itlikes, etcetera. So make sure
your tree selection makes sense.
(29:46):
Along those lines, if you'replanting a windbreak in
particular, you want it to beperpendicular to the prevailing
winds. You don't want to create,like, wind tunnels. And if
you're working with someoneeither from the NRCS or at Svan
Institute, we can help do thosedesigns, but you don't want to
(30:10):
just be, like, making the windproblem even worse on your farm.
That would kinda be bad. Andthen maybe the other two that
are that come up a lot are treescan be really expensive, but
they also don't have to be.
There are state nurseries thatsell bare root trees that are
(30:31):
like those little guys, and youbuy them in the springtime, and
you plant them in the spring,and they're dormant, and they
come in bundles. Those are thekind of trees we use in the
majority of our plantings, evenfor plantings that we're doing
timber production with. We'dlike to just buy those cheap $5,
$2 small sticks, and that's bothbecause windbreaks usually take
(30:56):
a lot of trees. Like, you'rebuying a bulk amount. So it's
reducing the cost.
But, also, when they're thatsmall, they require less. So if
you've planted, like, a bald andburlap tree in town or in your
yard, like, you gotta go out andwater that thing. Like, it is a
big pumpkin tree with a lot ofroots. You have to keep make
(31:20):
sure those roots are moist. Butwhen it's little, it requires
less, and it'll take more timeto grow, but it will also
require a little bit lesswatering on your part.
We don't water any of ourwindbreaks. I think we've maybe
done it once when we had thatreally, really bad drought a few
years ago. But you're you'regonna wanna get a plant that's
(31:44):
not gonna be really picky. Andthen that last thing is but you
still need to manage it. SoMhmm.
I've I'm sure you guys say thistoo. Like, people will plant a
tree, and they're like, oh, it'sa tree. Like, thing is stronger
than me. It'll grow. But, no,you have to weed it.
You have to make sure there'snot weeds, like, coming up and
(32:09):
suffocating the tree. They treesdo a lot better when you're
giving it, like, a three footradius. No weeds allow it to
really expand its root system.Mulching it is great, but,
really, that weed management isreally, really crucial, even
just mowing. I think yeah.
(32:31):
People think grass can't kill atree, but it can. Grass and and
broad leaves and little greenthings that annoy your tomatoes
also annoy baby trees. So takecare of that.
Chris Enroth (32:46):
And the the answer to the hydrangea question, just
go buy a new one becausethere's, like, a thousand new
ones that come out every year.So just enjoy the new hydrangea
cultivars that come out.
MJ Oviatt (32:57):
Okay.
Chris Enroth (32:57):
We can't keep up. It's impossible. Yeah.
MJ Oviatt (33:02):
Every day, I'm sure.
Ken Johnson (33:03):
Mhmm. Just tell them, it depends. There
Chris Enroth (33:07):
you go.
MJ Oviatt (33:07):
Oh, yeah. They I say that a lot.
Ken Johnson (33:12):
Alright. So you mentioned, there's another,
kinda common agroforestrypractice, riparian buffers. So,
I guess what are first, what arethese? And what are the benefits
to, I guess, installing one ofthese in the landscape?
MJ Oviatt (33:30):
Yeah. I love riparian buffers. I think they also
should just be everywhere. Ithink riparian buffers as a
concept is a little more broadthan agroforestry that is
basically any kind of vegetativebuffer that's surrounding a
(33:50):
waterway of some kind, be it alake, a stream, a ditch,
whatever, a wetland. But theriparian buffers that we talk
about and design at SvanInstitute are woody in nature.
So that's when you're not justincorporating, like, grass or a
prairie, but also doing it withtrees and shrubs. So it's really
(34:15):
just however much space youwanna give that waterway on
either side, you're plantingsome trees and shrubs that are
not necessarily what you wouldput in a windbreak. Sometimes it
is, but there are species thatare native to wet areas, things
like persimmon and hickory andthrow on some sycamore or
(34:41):
something like that, elderberry.But, yeah, that can be really
great for other kinds ofhabitat. Aquatic habitat really
benefits by having some woodystuff in and around it.
It's very much a restorativekind of agriculture system. And
(35:03):
we also do this primarily forthe water quality. We I think,
Chris, you were kind of bringingit up. We see a lot of runoff,
chemical runoff and fertilizerrunoff from our fields. I think
Illinois and Iowa are constantlycompeting for who's putting the
most in the Mississippi River.
(35:23):
Again, not really a competitionI'm really interested in being
part of.
Chris Enroth (35:27):
We're winning. Like,
MJ Oviatt (35:29):
I wanna this is golf. I wanna have a lower score than
Iowa.
Chris Enroth (35:33):
Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah. We're
supposed to have the lower scoreon
MJ Oviatt (35:36):
this one. Yes. They always have to remind me of that
one.
Ken Johnson (35:38):
Yep.
MJ Oviatt (35:39):
But I think I don't know. The funny thing about that
problem to me is, like, that'sjust money going down the drain.
Like, I feel like we don't talkabout that enough. You're play
you're paying to plant you'repaying to put this fertilizer on
your land. Like, you want it tostay there.
You don't want it to just goflushing down the waterway.
(36:00):
Like, nobody wants that. So withriparian buffers, I think the
cool thing that we're lookinginto and we're experimenting
with is, again, incorporatingsome edible or harvestable
species in those riparianbuffers that will act like
sponges. Their root systems arereally, really good at capturing
(36:22):
any of that excess runoff, andit's, like, in the 90
percentile. Like, that that iswhy we love wetlands there.
I don't know if you guys everseen those videos of, like,
water moving through a wetland,and then in the end, it's, like,
super, super clear and purified.That's exactly the concept we
(36:43):
have going on with theseecosystems. So you're putting
that fertilizer on your fieldanyways. Maybe you can start
harvesting something from thoseriparian buffers that are
getting that extra nutrients andthen also stopping it from going
into the water and then, youknow, causing a lot of damage in
(37:06):
the Gulf and creating hypoxiazones and things like that. So,
yeah, that's what a riparianbuffer is.
I'm happy to talk more about it.
Chris Enroth (37:17):
I I like I I really like that idea because
the there's I've heard storiesfrom farmers, and I have a a I
my yard backs up to a farmfield. Their drainage ways are
vegetated, but really justgrass. Mhmm. But a lot of times,
like, the farmers, you know,they plant, they harvest, but
they do contract a lot out aswell. They're not necessarily
(37:40):
overseeing some of the some ofthose field operations that are
going on.
And I've heard stories, and I'veseen with my own eyes some of
these, you know, applicatorsgoing out and just running right
through these waterways just andand just destroying them and
farmers getting upset like, oh,you've you've tore up my my
drainage way. I gotta, you know,reseed it or, you know, we have
(38:02):
to regrade it now because it waswet and and all of these things.
But the idea of putting maybesome more, like, perennial type
woody structure plants outthere, I like that because it
gives it more structure, makesit seem like, hey. This is kind
of a hands off or wheels offkind of area. So I think that
(38:23):
could be incorporated into moreinstances because, you know, we
have fewer farmers.
We have more more more land inin certain in terms of what
they're farming. So they can'tbe everywhere all at once. Now
my wheels are turning, MJ. Yeah.
MJ Oviatt (38:37):
Good. Yeah. I totally agree. I think, with all of
these trees, they very muchcreate a visual, an easy to see
barrier of sorts. Like, treeshave always been used as a way
to, like, delineate differentspaces.
(39:00):
And doing that with thewaterways would be awesome. I
think I don't know. I'm sureyou'll get a question if there's
some farmers listening outthere, like, what about tile
drainage? You can't be doingthis when there's tiled fields.
And my answer to that is, well,we don't really know, and we're
(39:20):
figuring that out.
And, yes, we we're aware thatthis could be a big roadblock
for adoption of agroforestrypractices. However, again, we're
not sure quite how much treeroots would affect tile. And I
think especially if you don'thave a tiled field and are
(39:45):
particularly interested inconservation. If you do have a
waterway, like, really thinkabout adding some woody species
into there because a lot ofwhat's endangered right now is
aquatic species. And, again,we're we have this really large
issue with water quality.
(40:06):
And that water also goes intoour, like, drinking water. So
this isn't just about the Gulf.This is water that also goes
into, like, our aquifers, butalso well water and things like
that. So it's also a localizedissue that's coming off of our
farm fields. Yeah.
I bring up tile, and then I waslike, well, actually, I don't
(40:27):
have an answer to that. I justwant people to be aware that we
know it's a problem that we needto address and figure out. But
right now, we're not too worriedabout it.
Chris Enroth (40:40):
Yeah. Yeah. But the there there was a lot of
the, like, the nitrates in thewater. That was in the news
quite a bit lately in Iowa andalso up in Northern Illinois.
And, you know, in the past, itwas it was a much larger problem
too when more rural folks wereon well water, like dug wells,
(41:01):
even drilled wells, but it itdefinitely was a problem.
And and here it is back in thenews again. And we have dust
storms and all kinds of stuff.What is happening right now? We
need to protect these waterways,riparian buffers. It sounds like
it's it's a it's like a viablestrategy for doing this.
MJ Oviatt (41:19):
Yes. And maybe one more international example that
I think is really worth noting.In Brazil, we're we're seeing a
lot of deforestation for cornand soy production, mostly
soybeans. They're verycompetitive with us now. I'm not
(41:41):
a fan of the deforestationthat's going on down there, but
they also have a lot moreregulation around their buffers.
So they're very much required toleave a lot of room around
waterways down there. And Ithink it's worth noting, like,
that's because we've recognizedhow vital, like, the Amazon is
(42:02):
for the globe's oxygen and just,like, biodiversity, period. But
when The United States was goingout and converting these diverse
ecosystems into highlyproductive ecosystems or highly
productive agricultural systems,We don't have those kind of
(42:22):
rules. So I think it's worthnoting I don't know. Maybe we
should maybe we should thinkabout, like, we also have
biodiversity in North America,and maybe we could be doing more
of what the other parts of theglobe are also doing with terms
of, like, preserving just alittle bit of the land for all
(42:44):
of its benefits that it's givingus.
Ken Johnson (42:47):
Alright. So you mentioned, earlier, but we'll
remind people again. So doesSavannah Institute have examples
of some of this agroforestry, inpractice? And then, like you
mentioned, for your landowners,if you guys provide education
or, you know, an instruction onthis type of stuff.
MJ Oviatt (43:09):
Yeah. We have a ton of that stuff. So we're a
nonprofit. We're a research andeducation nonprofit. So that's
the heart of our mission ishelping people do this and also
figure out the best managementpractices and best designs for
this stuff.
If you wanna come out and seesome real life examples and
(43:31):
you're in Illinois, you can cometo one of our demonstration
farms. I am the main organizerof our field days out there, and
we have one in, like I said,Urbana. That's one that's a 120
acres, and it's one of thelarger demonstration sites in
(43:51):
the country that has windbreaks.There's also some alley cropping
out there and different kinds oftree crops, hazelnuts, black
currants, elderberry. And thenwe have a a little bit more of a
simple demonstration right nextto Allerton Park, the 4 H
Memorial Camp DemonstrationFarm.
(44:14):
That one's a little bit older.That one's in Monticello. That
is an alley cropping site withtimber trees and then corn and
soy rotation in between them.And then in Northern Illinois,
in Ogle County, we are at FieldsRestored. There, we have a
riparian buffer that has someedible and harvestable species
(44:38):
in there, things like pecan,persimmon, willow, elderberry.
And that is in a grazingpasture, and then we're also
doing a silvopasture experimentthere, which is where you
incorporate trees into a grazinglandscape. And silvopasture is
(44:59):
really cool. You guys shouldjust interview somebody who
focuses on silvopasture. Maybeanother episode. And then, yeah,
that's all the stuff inIllinois.
We're gonna be launching apartner farm network next year
in Illinois, which I'm reallyexcited about. So we're doing
(45:19):
this currently in Wisconsinwhere a lot of our work also is.
And the partner farm network isprivate farms that are doing
agroforestry would be part ofthis network and would get to
learn from each other and alsohost field days showcasing how
(45:40):
they're utilizing agroforestrypractices. And I think those are
really exciting because you getto see like, the demonstration
farms are really cool. We'redoing a lot of research there.
But when you see, like, a reallife farmer running their
business with this stuff workingfor them, I think that can
really make people see, like,oh, this is a viable option for
(46:03):
me. So come out to a field day.This is coming out in July.
We're having a ton of fun stuff,in August and September. We're
hosting a big field day, all dayworkshop with extension in
Monticello at that 4 H camp farmat the September, and that's
(46:27):
gonna be really highlighting thewildlife benefits that come from
agroforestry, both for peoplethat just really care about
birds and bees and wildlife, butalso people that love to hunt.
We're gonna be having somedesign presentations on that and
talking about designing thesesystems for big bucks and quail
(46:47):
and pheasant and things likethat. So that's probably the
biggest event I wanna showcase,but we do stuff every month. And
if you go on our website, go onthe events calendar, you can
find stuff there. You can alsoI'll send you this to put in the
(47:08):
show notes. And right now, we interms of other things, if you
don't show up to a field day,that's okay.
There's a lot of information onour website. Should I just share
my screen? I was thinking aboutdoing that. Yeah. Okay.
I wanna show off how cool ourwebsite is. So this is our
(47:31):
website, Perennial AF. If you goup here, we have a lot of
information. You can check outsome different farms. We have
across the Midwest mostly.
That's where we mostly work. Andthen information on all these
different crops. We have a plantbreeding program where we're
(47:53):
breeding some native and, like,native adjacent crops that have
not really gone to market yet inAmerica. So things like black
currants and black walnuts arevery, like, emergent and hybrid
chestnuts and hazelnuts in theMidwest. These are things that
(48:15):
we're collaborating with otherpeople on and also trying to
build markets for.
And those get incorporated intosome other kinds of agroforestry
systems as well, but but you cando those in in windbreaks and
riparian buffers too. There'slots of different resources.
We're really hitting this at allangles. Like I said, we're
(48:37):
doing, like, businessdevelopment and plant breeding
and training young farmers anddemonstrating them and doing
ecosystem science science sothat we're, like, learning what
species utilize these things.And are we really seeing water
quality?
Like, we're we're scientists. Wewanna, like, have evidence of
(49:01):
what's working. And then there'sthat our events hit on the
calendar. And then every year,we have the perennial farm
gathering, you're like, wow. Iwanna join the agroforestry
community.
They sound cool. You can comeand join us there. It's a big
conference, but it's a lot offun people from all over the
(49:23):
country get together and talkabout how to do this thing. So,
yeah, check us out.
Chris Enroth (49:31):
That's so cool. That's like your one stop, like,
website for all youragroforestry needs. I've been
threatening Ken for years. Like,Ken, we need to do more hazelnut
stuff. So I'm going thatwebsite.
We're gonna look into this.
Ken Johnson (49:47):
Yeah. I got five in my backyard.
Chris Enroth (49:50):
Got one. Yeah. I got, like, the straight species,
but I've always just beencurious about, like, more
cultivated types. You know?Like, can we get better flavor,
you know, a little bit biggerkernel size for the hazelnut?
Like, I just I want I wannastudy that more. So I'm gonna go
check it out.
MJ Oviatt (50:09):
Cool. Well, if I'll you could cut this out if you're
like we don't even talk abouthazelnuts at the end, but I'll
add a little hazelnut plug. I'mreally interested in hazelnuts.
They are there's a nativeAmerican hazelnut, which I'm
sure you guys that's why you'reinterested in them. Yeah.
They were all over Illinois, butthey have really hard shells and
Chris Enroth (50:32):
Yes.
MJ Oviatt (50:33):
Smaller nuts than what we're used to buying from
the grocery store. And mosthazelnuts that we eat are grown
in Europe. We're in Oregon, andthe they grow European
hazelnuts. But the Europeanhazelnut is susceptible to an
endemic disease that is inIllinois and in the Midwest
(50:56):
called eastern filbert blight,and it's just everywhere. Like,
they will get it no matter what.
But, of course, the Americanone, it's evolved with it, so it
doesn't get the disease. Sowe're working with folks from
University of Minnesota andUniversity of Wisconsin. They
(51:17):
are doing a lot of developmentwith the Upper Midwest hazelnut
development initiative tohybridize the American and the
European and maybe some otherspecies too to create some
cultivars that are really goodand and highly productive and
(51:37):
economically viable for theMidwest. And up in Wisconsin,
that's where we have more ofthose plants. But at our farm in
Urbana, we have cultivatedvarieties.
And I think it might be one ofthe largest, like, cultivated
variety trial in the Midwest.And those are a lot of stuff
from Oregon and Rutgers also hasa really good breeding program.
(52:01):
So if you guys wanna nerd outmore about hazelnut varieties,
I'm down. Come to the farm inUrbana. I'll show you the beast
and grasshoots and all those.
Have you heard of the beast?
Chris Enroth (52:13):
I've heard of the beast. Yes. I have.
MJ Oviatt (52:16):
Well, we're growing them. We have a lot of a lot of
beasts in our fields.
Chris Enroth (52:22):
Excellent. Oh, this is a road trip that must
happen, Ken. Alright. I'll pickyou up.
Ken Johnson (52:27):
Road trip.
Chris Enroth (52:28):
Yep. Let's go.
MJ Oviatt (52:29):
Great.
Chris Enroth (52:30):
Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. I because I I my
hazelnut in my yard, I actuallyharvested it just from a wild
one I found, propagated it. Youknow, I had, like, 12 seeds. I
think maybe half of thosesprouted.
One of them survived, me mostly.And now I have this, like,
really cool hazelnut shrub in myyard. So but it was you're
(52:53):
right. That the the the shell, Ihad to use a hammer, try to
crack that thing. I mean, it wassuper dense, wound up, like,
smashing some of them, but thelike, that that nut meat on the
inside is so good.
I think I you don't need toroast it or anything. You just
eat it right out of the shell.It was so good.
MJ Oviatt (53:12):
Yeah. I think they're the best. Right. Well
Ken Johnson (53:16):
Squirrels get mine, or I get blank nuts.
Chris Enroth (53:20):
Yeah. And
Ken Johnson (53:22):
we've had those bushes for, like, six years now,
and a couple of them are, like,10 feet tall. I don't think I've
ever eaten a nut off of them.Oh.
MJ Oviatt (53:32):
Oh, you might need another pollinator. They aren't
self pollinated. They need abuddy.
Ken Johnson (53:39):
I've got five, and they're all we got I got them
from from a coworker. I thinkshe got them from Mason State.
So Mhmm. I would assume theypollinate each other.
MJ Oviatt (53:51):
Squirrels love them. Like, if you're in town sorry.
Ken Johnson (53:55):
I'm sorry.
MJ Oviatt (53:56):
Chris, I'm surprised you get nuts from your backyard.
But when you're out in thefarms, like, there's less
squirrels out there, so there'sless of a worry
Chris Enroth (54:05):
with them. We got dogs, I guess. Maybe they but
you have a dog, Ken? Buttercup?She's the most ferocious animal
I've ever seen.
MJ Oviatt (54:14):
It's a ferocious name.
Ken Johnson (54:15):
Yes. Very.
Chris Enroth (54:18):
Well, MJ, I I have one more question for you now
that Ken and I have kind ofnerded out about hazelnut. What
what if you had an agroforestryproject, and and I bet you do,
but, like, let's say you had piein the sky kinda dream budget,
whatever, what species would youwant in your agroforestry
(54:39):
project?
MJ Oviatt (54:41):
Are you gonna say where I am in the state, or
Chris Enroth (54:44):
can I
MJ Oviatt (54:45):
just choose?
Chris Enroth (54:46):
You can Anywhere in the state of Illinois. It
doesn't matter. You go SouthernIllinois, Northern Central. You
can be like, I'm in a valley inthe West Central side of the
state. It doesn't matter.
Yeah.
MJ Oviatt (55:00):
Okay. Well, I'll give Southern Illinois some love.
Okay. They I sometimes wish weworked more down there because
they're already like, they'retree people down there anyways.
Mhmm.
They're surrounded by trees. Sosay I'm outside Saint Louis.
There's some really awesomenorthern pecan growers down
(55:21):
there, and I really lovenorthern pecan. I don't know if
you guys have had, like, freshpecans from Illinois. They're
different.
They're not what you get at thestore. Like, they are so good.
You can tell how much fresherthey are. Sorry, Texas.
Chris Enroth (55:40):
Mhmm.
MJ Oviatt (55:41):
But I'm sure they get them too in in Texas, New
Mexico, whatever. No. That youcan grow pecans in Illinois. And
I think with the way our climateis going, it's just gonna get
warmer, which means we can growmore of these species, and pecan
will become more and moreviable. I'm also a huge fan of
(56:04):
hickory.
I think that is it's related topecan, and Native American folks
have been utilizing hickory andhickory oil for, like, thousands
of years. And I think it's justsomething that we, like, didn't
(56:24):
latch onto in American society.So in my agroforestry system, I
would love to grow lots ofnorthern pecan and hickory nuts
both for oil and maybe somehazelnuts. I'm a nut person even
though
Chris Enroth (56:42):
I have
MJ Oviatt (56:42):
berries in my background. Yep. And then I
definitely have this all plannedout. Like, this is what I want
for my future. It's yeah.
A small farm, specialty crops.We got windbreaks. We're alley
cropping with tree rows of nuts.And then in between, we're doing
(57:02):
vegetables and flowers, and thenthere's, like, a little
restaurant at the farm, andpeople can come and stuff from
the farm. And that's that'sthat's gonna be my life.
I'm manifesting it.
Chris Enroth (57:14):
There you go. Mhmm. Let's get that. Got that
in your your five year planhere.
MJ Oviatt (57:19):
So that that's so cool. That's gonna work it's
gonna happen.
Ken Johnson (57:22):
Yeah. That lottery ticket. Yes.
MJ Oviatt (57:24):
Yep.
Chris Enroth (57:25):
Yes. Alright, Ken. On our road trip, we're gonna
stop at a few nurseries. We'regonna pick up some northern
pecans, some some hickories, andthen we're gonna go learn about
hazelnuts. So I I think thissounds like a great trip.
Ken Johnson (57:37):
Let's do it.
MJ Oviatt (57:39):
Great. You'll get all nutty like the rest of us.
Chris Enroth (57:43):
That's correct. Yeah. Alright.
MJ Oviatt (57:47):
I'd like to, I think, just add one more thing. I think
sometimes I like just, like,saying this because I think a
lot of us a lot of people think,like, oh, they're crazy. Like,
this won't work. We can't dothis. And I think I want to,
like, recognize not every farmhas to incorporate agroforestry,
(58:08):
but if we incorporate some onour landscape, something in
every county, like, the amountof good that would do is
enormous.
I helped plant our farm inUrbana, and it was like any
other normal spring plantingseason. Everyone was out there
in the field. It's all corn andsoybeans surrounding us. And,
(58:31):
like, you know, the land wasjust completely bare, but
instead of planting an annualseed, we were planting trees.
And we have just seen such atransformation just in three
years of the amount of, like,birds and butterflies and frogs
and, like, different speciescoming back out there.
And I think, like, if you'reinclined to do some
(58:52):
conservation, maybe you have afew acres that aren't highly
productive with your corn crop,or there's some weird, I don't
know, trapezoid that you have,like, think about doing
agroforestry there. Like, itwill still produce something for
you. We're happy to work withyou. You're not alone and
(59:14):
interested in doing this. Soit's every little bit, I think,
counts, and it's awesome to seewith your own eyes the change
that you can make on thelandscape.
And I think I'm sure you guyshave seen this with your
gardening. Like, just growingthings will bring other life to
you, and it's just such a joy.And it's something I love about
(59:36):
this work. So it's my littleconclusion for you all.
Chris Enroth (59:41):
Excellent way to to cap this off. So well, that
was a lot of great informationabout agroforestry. We dove into
windbreaks and riparian buffers.So there's a lot to digest.
Check out the links below in theshow notes.
Well, the good growing podcastis a production of University of
Illinois Extension, edited thisweek by Ken Johnson. And MJ,
(01:00:02):
thank you so much for joining usthis week. This has just been an
absolute pleasure getting tolearn more about agroforestry,
more about more about thepractices that we can
incorporate on our land, andthen where we can go, like the
hazelnut farm where I can learnall about the beasts and Grand
Traverse and all of the otherhybrids out there that are
growing over in the eastern partof the state. I am looking
(01:00:26):
forward to getting out there.Thank you very much for being
here today.
MJ Oviatt (01:00:29):
Thank you very much. Glad I fangirled two years ago
at a conference with you guys toget Well, on the
Chris Enroth (01:00:38):
it's our it was our one and only. So actually,
Ken got another selfie withsomeone at the football games.
There you go. It also He getsrecognized a lot.
MJ Oviatt (01:00:48):
It's a long run. It's a it's a long game. You'll get
there. Yes. Okay.
Great. Thanks, guys.
Ken Johnson (01:00:57):
Yes. And thank you, MJ. I'm glad we finally got
around to doing this. Next time,it won't take two years.
Promise.
MJ Oviatt (01:01:04):
Okay. Maybe on my end, it will.
Ken Johnson (01:01:08):
And, Chris, thank you as always, and let's do this
again next week.
Chris Enroth (01:01:13):
Oh, we shall do this again next week. We are up
to our eyeballs in in weeds, atleast in my yards. The
horticulture hijinks willcontinue on the Good Growing
podcast next week. So listeners,thank you for doing what you do
best and that is listening or ifyou're watching us on YouTube
watching. And as always, keep ongrowing.
(01:01:42):
Okay, Ken. You remember this isthe Good Growing podcast. Right?
You've been gone a long time.Welcome to the Good Growing
podcast.
I am Chris Enroth, horticultureeducator with University of
Illinois Extension. Blah blahblah. See, I I this is the only
time I've ever messed up. Let metake that over. Start over
(01:02:03):
again.
Alright. Take two.
Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris
Enroth, horticulture educatorwith University of Illinois
Extension coming at you fromMacomb, Illinois, and we have
got a great show for you today.Gonna be talking with MJ Oviatt
about agroforestry.Agroforestry. I think I know two
of those terms that have beensmashed together to create that
one term, but we're gonna learnall about it today.
(00:27):
And you know I'm not doing thisby myself. I am joined as always
every single week byhorticulture educator Ken
Johnson in Jacksonville. Welcomeback to Illinois, Ken. We're
happy to see you again.
Ken Johnson (00:38):
Hello. Thanks. It's it's been a while.
Chris Enroth (00:40):
It sure has. Your beard's grown five inches since
I've seen you last. And thenyou'd cut it, and it's grown
five more inches. So yeah. Howwas the how are the trips and
travels for you?
Ken Johnson (00:52):
It was good. It was it's kinda rough coming back.
Spent a lot of time out Westwhere there's no humidity or
very little humidity. And in themountains, were much cooler
temperatures. So, you know,getting used to 70 degree
temperatures in there in the dayand fifties at night.
It was a little rough comingback to mid to upper eighties
and nasty humidity, but we'll bewe'll get used to it again.
Chris Enroth (01:18):
Well, before the show, Ken was talking about his
his trip to Death Valley, andI'm like he's like, oh, it's a
106 degrees. And I'm like, oh,so, like, 88 in Illinois with,
you know, 90% humidity, youknow, especially with all the
corn sweating right now. So it'sit is humid out there. And your
garden looks good, Ken?
Ken Johnson (01:37):
Yeah. I I walked around a little bit. It doesn't
look nearly as bad as I hadfeared. The the mulch is holding
up. So if nothing else, mulchyour gardens before you go on
vacation.
You'll save yourself a lot ofheadaches when you get back.
Mhmm.
Chris Enroth (01:52):
Well, there there you go, folks. You've heard it
here many times before. Mulch isyour friend. Use it. Alright.
Well, our topic this week, weare going to dive in
agroforestry and the topicsabout agroforestry, kind of the
the the subtopics, we shouldsay. And agroforestry, that's
(02:12):
one of those subjects I've I'veread about. I've I've learned a
little bit about it, but I'venever really, like, dove into
it, you know, very much, youknow, just kind of knowing what
it is in the back of my head.Ken, have you any experience
with agroforestry?
Ken Johnson (02:28):
I'd say I'm in a pretty similar situation. Read
about it a little bit, buthaven't really gotten into the
weeds too much, so to speak.
Chris Enroth (02:37):
Yes. Yes. Well, I'm glad we're we are both on
the same page then. So I thinkit's time to introduce our
special guest for today, andthat is MJ Oviatt. MJ is with
the Savannah Institute, and sheis an Illinois agroforestry
educator.
You are in Champaign, Urbana. SoMJ, welcome to the show.
MJ Oviatt (02:57):
Thank you. Glad to be here.
Chris Enroth (03:00):
Well, we are happy to have you. Now I before we get
into the the nitty gritty hereon agroforestry, gotta get to
know a little bit about you. Sotell us a little bit about
yourself, what do you do at theSavannah Institute?
MJ Oviatt (03:15):
Sure. Yeah. I'm MJoviet. I've been in this
position. I'm now going into mythird season.
I'm sure you all are familiarwith referring to your life as
through the seasons. So thirdsummer with them. But my road to
getting here has been long, andit's very entrenched in the
(03:36):
Champaign Urbana community. Igrew up in the suburbs of
Chicago, but I went to U of Ifor NRAS, natural resource
conservation or natural resourceenvironmental science, and then
got really involved with thelocal farming scene in town. I
don't know if you've everinterviewed anyone from the
(03:58):
local farms of Champaign Urbana,but I worked at pretty much all
of them.
I worked at Sola Gradia andDelight Flower Farm, and I
worked at the student farm thereat U of I. But when I was in
college, I was taking a lot ofhorticulture classes. And at the
time, there were some professorsthat were really interested in
(04:20):
agroforestry, and I thought itwas just the coolest idea. I
really care about theenvironment and really wanted to
do some restoration work, and Ialso wanted to keep growing
food. So it really felt like Igot to do the best of both of
those things withinagroforestry.
(04:41):
So when I graduated, I worked atthese farms, but my intention
was always to get a jobprofessionally doing
agroforestry stuff. So aboutfive years ago, I think that's
fine. I'll say five years. Istarted working at Canopy Farm
Management, which is a startupthat came out of Savannah
(05:05):
Institute. Now I was doing,like, field technician work with
them, and then this positionopened up at Savannah Institute
to be an educator.
And so now that's what I dothese days. And I think my job
is very similar to probably whatyou guys do at extension. I'm,
like, an educator for anonprofit. I put on field days.
(05:27):
I do education materials.
I don't run our podcast, but Ido contribute to to ours
sometimes. And, yeah, do a lotof adult education. So that's
the gist.
Chris Enroth (05:44):
Excellent. And what's the name of the podcast
with the the it's SavannahInstitute.
MJ Oviatt (05:50):
The Savannah Institute podcast is called
Perennial AF. AF stands Of for
Chris Enroth (05:58):
course. Of course. I wouldn't think it stood for
anything else.
MJ Oviatt (06:01):
Yes. AF is agroforestry in my world.
Chris Enroth (06:05):
I love it. That's great. Oh, yeah. I and I I I
have been to a couple of the thelocal farms over in the
Champaign County area. One ofthem I remember was a goat
creamery.
That was an interesting place.Some really interesting ice
creamer. I think it was icecream. A sweet creamy treat.
I'll call it that.
Maybe not quite ice cream.
MJ Oviatt (06:24):
Yes. Berry fruits, I think, is what you're thinking
of, and they're incorporatingagroforestry systems at that
farm, which is really cool.Cool.
Ken Johnson (06:35):
Alright. So let's get on to the the topic for
today. So agroforestry, let'swhat is, I guess, agroforestry,
and does it work in the Prairiesof Illinois?
MJ Oviatt (06:47):
Sure. Good questions. I'll give you the USDA
definition of agroforestry andthen kind of give a, like, a
human answer to that. Mhmm. Sothe USDA recognizes agroforestry
as a legitimate agriculturalsystem management style, and
(07:08):
they define it as theintentional integration of trees
and shrubs with crops and orlivestock for economic,
environmental, social benefit,so for lots of different
benefits.
And that can look a milliondifferent ways. There's millions
of different kinds of species.It depends on where you live.
(07:33):
Agroforestry is practiced allover the world. It's probably
the original form of farming,period.
We already eat a lot of thingsfrom trees and utilize trees in
our landscapes. But these days,especially in the Corn Belt and
in Illinois, our agriculture isso intense that we don't always
(07:56):
incorporate other species otherthan the crop that we're growing
or the livestock that we'retending to. So agroforestry in
North America, agroforestrytemperate agroforestry is what
we do, is newer because we'velost it since, like, The United
(08:17):
States basically was formed,and, it's kind of been thrown to
the wayside. So we're kindabringing something back. But, of
course, we utilize a lot of thenew technology that is being
utilized today by other kinds offarmers.
And now with all of our mappingsoftware and and different
science, like, it it looksdifferent than it did two
(08:38):
hundred years ago. And then ifit it does work in Illinois, I
think on the last long episodethat you all had with Ryan and
Emily, Ryan was describing whatthe Illinois landscape looked
like prior to, like, Europeancolonization. And we're called
(09:00):
the Prairie State for a reason.We had prairie everywhere, but
there are were definitelypockets of trees. And Savannah
Institute's name comes from thatpart of the landscape.
We had a sort of Savannah acrossthe Midwest, especially in
(09:21):
Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana,Iowa. I don't know if you've
ever done a podcast or learnedabout this, but Champaign Urbana
itself was once the big grove,and it was actually pretty
forested and had a lot of trees.But not everything was just kind
of like the Great Plains, notrees. There were trees in
(09:43):
different areas across Illinoisand coming up through Southern
Illinois. Not necessarilyforested, but 10 to 30% cover
tree cover, shrubs, wild plums,and hazelnuts, and things like
that.
So agroforestry isn't just purerestoration, but we do recognize
(10:06):
that Illinois did have morewoody things in the landscape.
It wasn't just prairie, but,yeah, we're we'll get into it.
It's more than restoration, butit's also not strange to be
bringing trees back to ourlandscape in Illinois. It makes
a lot of sense.
Ken Johnson (10:26):
K.
Chris Enroth (10:29):
Now I I would say the when I get into the world of
forestry, if I I stick on that,and it's kind of it dovetailing
in what you just said, there'salways this goal of, are we
doing this for the money, likethe economics? What what can we
pull from the land? Or are wedoing this for the ecological
(10:52):
benefits? So how doesagroforestry play that? Because
in in forest, like, just generalforestry, when I talk to a
forestry, it's like, hey.
It's either this or this. It'slike, can't we have both? Like,
you know, why why are our goalsseem to be competing with each
other? So so, MJ, are we doingthis for money? We're doing this
for ecology?
Is there another thing that I'mnot taught knowing about here?
(11:14):
Why are we doing this?
MJ Oviatt (11:15):
Well, I work for a nonprofit, so I'm definitely not
doing it for Johnny.
Chris Enroth (11:19):
There you go. That's that's how it's solved.
MJ Oviatt (11:21):
Happy at my job. No. But, seriously, it this is kind
of a funny answer, but we'rereally trying to meet it right
in the middle between theenvironmental benefit and the
profitability of these systems.We're recognizing that farming
is a form of land management.When I was at U of I, the thing
(11:48):
that I learned the most wasnatural resource management.
That was what I was taught. Andthe way I was taught that was
preparing us for being landmanagers for nature preserves
and state parks, national parks,and things like that. But when I
looked around and saw that, youknow, most of what is outside of
(12:09):
campus is cornfields, I waslike, well, what about this
land? And that's what all of mycolleagues at Savannah Institute
and the folks that startedSavannah Institute were were
wondering. Like, we can't justhave these state parks and these
nature preserves.
Is there something some way thatwe can take the benefits that
come from these high qualityecosystems and incorporate them
(12:32):
into our production systems andkind of meet in the middle and
benefit both, which we'll getinto with the two practices
we're really gonna highlighttoday. So we're I often say this
in all of my presentations iswe're trying to find that puzzle
piece that's like or thatperfect middle point where you
(12:56):
can get a lot of those ecosystembenefits from the landscape that
you'd get from conservation, butyou're not completely just
leaving something still. You canalso harvest things and create
some revenue off of thatlandscape. And maybe it's not
the same as commodity and notpure, like, economic benefit.
(13:22):
But in the long run, like, wecan see that that may be even
more economically beneficialthan what we're what is the
status quo in most of our state.
So and then the other thing onthat point, I think people often
think I'm a forester, whichmaybe one day I will become one.
(13:44):
I don't know. But my backgroundis in, like, annual cropping.
And I know some about timberproduction, but that's really
not our focus. It's more soenhancing landscape and then
doing some fruit and nutproduction is also, like, a
majority of our work.
Ken Johnson (14:06):
So what would what would be, like, a few examples
of the benefits if somebody wereto do this, like, on a farm or
if they have, you know, a fewacres of land and they wanted to
incorporate agroforestry ontotheir property?
MJ Oviatt (14:20):
Sure. There's tons, and I'll say from this
perspective of a landowner or afarmer first, and then we can
probably also talk about just,like, general benefits to
everybody that comes with thesepractices. But the cool thing
about agroforestry systems isthat you are thinking about
(14:41):
production. This isn't like,okay. Let's go in and just
completely restore the nativelandscape.
There's an element of that, butit's also like, okay. What can
we grow here that will do welland we can also sell? So today,
I really wanna focus on the twoedge of field practices that we
(15:02):
promote a lot of in Illinois,which are windbreaks and
riparian buffers. And so, like,with a windbreak, you're
incorporating a row or multiplerows of trees onto the edges of
your farm property, and thosetrees will actually help the
crop on the inside. They winderosion can be really
(15:27):
detrimental to our crops, andyou see this a lot in the Great
Plains, but we've also beennoticing it in Illinois,
especially these dust stormsthat have also been happening
that is coming from, like,reducing the number of
windbreaks we have on ourlandscapes and perennials that
we have on our landscapes.
(15:47):
Trees can stop the wind, blockit, protect the inside crops.
They also help lowerevapotranspiration. So things
that are growing close to treeswill retain their water more.
And as we see, like, big flexfluctuations in temperatures and
(16:10):
and long drought, that's evenmore important to have low rates
of evapotranspiration. Keep thewater in the ground.
So trees really help with soilhealth, and that's from wind
erosion and water erosion aswell. They retain water with
(16:30):
their perennial roots like wewould see also with, like,
prairie strips and things likethat. But prairies only get so
tall, and trees can reallyprotect longer. Sorry. My hand's
getting caught between in mygreen screen.
(16:50):
Trees are taller and thus can,like, protect further into the
field than shorter things. Andmaybe one other point, which I'm
happy to talk about this stuff.I'm wearing my tree crop shirt
today. But you can incorporatethings things that you also
harvest in those riparianbuffers and windbreaks. So say
(17:13):
you are interested in doing,like, a specialty crop of some
kind or you have some a partnerthat you can work with that will
then sell that specialty crop,you can plant, like, rows of I
have here June berries orservice berries and harvest
those or, like, black currantsor pecans or chestnuts or things
(17:33):
like that.
So it's diversifying a farm. Noteverybody's interested in that,
but there's potential there inthose markets.
Chris Enroth (17:43):
Okay. You had mentioned maybe not everyone's
interested in in this particularin agroforestry. But you know
what? I I love that we'relooking at windbreaks in
riparian buffers today becauseIllinois is both windy and just
it's flat. Drainage is an issuehere.
Like, you have to reallyconsider where your water's
(18:03):
going and, you know, how it'sflowing off of your field. Like,
those are huge considerationsfor us. So, you know, if people
aren't as interested in this,why aren't we seeing as much of
this throughout the Illinoislandscape? Or or, like, what
what are the barriers keepingpeople from incorporating more
agroforestry practices?
MJ Oviatt (18:23):
Yeah. There are a lot of barriers. I think the largest
one is that there's this notionthat you really can't take any
land out of annual cropproduction. And I think people
are very into having really highyield, and that makes a lot of
(18:44):
sense. It's very easy tounderstand concept.
It's like, you know, sports,which I'm a big sports fan. I
understand you wanna have thehighest score. And when you take
maybe, like, 5% of your fieldout of that production, you may
see a yield decrease, but that'snot always the case. And I think
(19:06):
people their intuition or logictells them, well, if I stop
cropping a little bit of myland, then I'm gonna have a
yield decrease. But when we seethe like, what's actually
happening, that interfacebetween the trees and the crop,
because of that wind protection,you can see increase in yield
(19:28):
and, like, less plant stressbecause it's having its brother
block the wind and and create abetter microclimate for the
crop.
So I think the notion is, again,oh, I can't afford to take any
land out of production, but thereality is ecosystems are
(19:51):
complicated, and there's waysthat we can incorporate
different strata of plants ontothe landscape, and it actually
is beneficial for the thingyou're trying to grow even
though you're growing less ofit. But the other big barriers
besides just that that culturalelement are land ownership.
(20:14):
Nobody wants to invest in atree. They're not gonna be
reaping the benefits of thosetrees for the next twenty years.
So if you don't own the land oryou don't have a strong lease
agreement with the landowner,this is we see this as all
conservation.
Like, people don't wanna getinto a CRP contract. You don't
(20:36):
wanna put in that work if you'renot gonna get to reap the
benefits. And I think maybethere's a lot of landowners that
aren't familiar withagroforestry or how nice it
would be to incorporate underyour landscape. That's something
I'd really love to talk withpeople with. So if you're a
landowner, a nonoperatinglandowner, hit me up.
(20:57):
And then maybe the last thing issomething that I touched on with
what I was saying before istrees are slow. Like, they grow
and live way longer than humansdo. They're like, we have
multiple generations when theyhave their one generation, so
(21:18):
they're a long term investment.If you plant a windbreak, you
probably won't start gettingbenefits, that full mature tree
benefit for a decade. There'ssome species that I'll talk
about that grow really fast andcan create that benefit in the
first five years.
But for these slow growing butreally dense windbreak trees
(21:46):
like evergreens. It takes them,like, twenty years to get to 20
feet tall. So there's governmentprograms that help offset those
costs, but it's kind of like aretirement account. So I want
people to be investing in treeslike they're investing in their
four zero one k. But, yeah, itjust needs to become a cultural
(22:10):
thing again, which it was.
Like, the dust pole, the answerwas windbreaks. Like, windbreaks
were planted all throughout theGreat Plains in the thirties and
the forties. It was, like, thelargest, like, federal land
management project ever done byFDR, and that was how the NRCS
(22:35):
was started. So there'sgenerations before us that are,
I think, more familiar with thebenefits, but we've kind of lost
that knowledge in time. So,yeah, that's a little added
bonus to that question, but wecould talk about that later if
you want.
Ken Johnson (22:53):
So kind of sticking with the the windbreaks. I think
when when most people think ofwindbreaks, they're thinking of
your your traditional pine orspruce trees. And and you
mentioned, you know, with yourshirt, there's just there's
other plants we can kind ofincorporate that and make it a
little more maybe multipurpose.I'm gonna talk about that a
little bit.
MJ Oviatt (23:13):
Yeah. Sure. Good question, Ken. The we still
utilize a lot of evergreens.Yeah.
I think anyone who's familiarwith the windbreak, if you're
really trying to create a livingbarrier, a living fence of sorts
using evergreens like spruce andeastern white pine. We use a lot
of arborvitae, white cedar aswell. Makes a lot of sense. They
(23:37):
create a really nice screen, andthat can be both for annual
crops, corn and soybeans, or forlivestock and buildings and
things like that. But what Ithink would be really awesome is
if we saw more than one rowwindbreaks, if people would do
three, five, seven rowwindbreaks.
(24:00):
Habitat corridors are arereally, really important, and we
don't always have those in ourlandscape. We we'll have some
nice, like, state parks ornature preserves, but then
there's no way for these largerfauna to travel between those
state parks. And this wassomething that was really
brought up when I was incollege. Like, this is something
(24:20):
that we really need to beworking on to make sure that
we're having our larger mammalshave habitat on the landscape.
So when you have, like, a three,four, five, seven row windbreak,
that allows for a lot morespecies and really cool species
that have lived here forthousands of years to keep doing
(24:46):
their business.
And that usually meansincorporating a lot of our
native stuff, oaks, hickory,walnut. We work heavily with our
local NRCS offices and do soiltests and things like that to
see what would have been nativeto whatever area you're in. And
(25:09):
then I mentioned earlier, youcan also incorporate things that
you're harvesting from. So youcould do a fruit row of some
sort, nuts. You can do thingsthat are floriculture, so, like,
willows and forsythia and youname it, like, roses even if you
(25:32):
want to.
But, again, if you're gonna dothings you're harvesting, you
probably still wanna protectthose things from the wind as
well. So not having it be justlike one row of chestnuts on the
edge of your farm field, theyprobably won't do so well. But
if that's incorporated intomultiple row system, then that
(25:56):
could be an added diversifiedincome stream of sorts. If
you're going through, like, oneof these government programs
that are conservation like, ourconservation program, like this
CRP, they have a species list,and they're gonna want you to do
(26:16):
very specific species. I don'tknow all the ins and outs of
that, so I'm not gonna, like, gotoo in-depth.
But things that are not nativeand are more horticultural in
nature, like, if you want applesor something like that, they
usually won't cost share, butsometimes they do. So you just
kinda have to check with yourlocal office. So, yeah, I can
(26:40):
give some examples of what wehave going on at some of our
demonstration farms. I'll justmake a quick plug right now. If
you come to our farm in Urbana,that is now in its fourth
season.
It's in, like, unincorporatedUrbana past Highcross Road. We
(27:03):
have 11 different windbreaksthere that are three row
windbreaks, and they're alldifferent kind of designs with
those. So you can come and seefor yourself what they look like
and maybe get a sense of whatyou can do.
Chris Enroth (27:18):
Excellent. And we will link below to the Savannah
Institute, MJ, if it's okay withyou, or you might throw your
email down there as well ifpeople want to reach out
directly to you. So, yeah, readlook in the notes below for
contact information. So I dohave a question. The the way
that I have taught things in thepast with extensions, so, like,
(27:40):
with trees, for example, is whatnot to dos.
That is because and maybe, Ken,you can back me up on this, that
people do not call us wheneverything is hunky dory or
everything looks good. Theyalways call us when there's a
problem. So I don't havepictures of good looking trees
or good looking plants. I haveall of the wrong things, all the
bad stuff. And I can use that asa teaching tool.
(28:02):
So I'm thinking now, MJ, ifsomeone has decided, well, you
know, maybe I will, you know,look at either at least drawing
it out or or looking at plantsor ordering plants for planting
a windbreak. What are somethings you don't wanna do when
you are designing thiswindbreak?
MJ Oviatt (28:22):
Good question, and I completely understand where
you're coming from, Chris. Ifyou hadn't yeah. What's wrong
with my tree? It's not doingthat's my family and my friends.
That's the those are the textsthat I got.
I'm sure you get those too. LikeOh, yeah. Why isn't my hydrangea
blooming? And I was like, Idon't know.
Chris Enroth (28:40):
Yep.
MJ Oviatt (28:40):
Fertilize it. That's usually what I say. Yes. But you
guys can tell me maybe later ifyou have any ideas on that. But
I'll answer your question first.
Some dos and don'ts, but mostlythe don'ts. I think the main
thing is something I touched on.You shouldn't grow try and grow
(29:03):
things that wouldn't naturallydo well. Like, do some heavy
research on what is native toyour landscape and understand
what is gonna grow well for you.Don't try and plant some exotic
species that might not do well.
(29:25):
Don't try and plant a chestnutwhere you have very poorly
drained soil. You're not gonnaget a lot of chestnuts. Like,
there's trees are particular,and each tree is different. Each
shrub is different on what pH itlikes, etcetera. So make sure
your tree selection makes sense.
(29:46):
Along those lines, if you'replanting a windbreak in
particular, you want it to beperpendicular to the prevailing
winds. You don't want to create,like, wind tunnels. And if
you're working with someoneeither from the NRCS or at Svan
Institute, we can help do thosedesigns, but you don't want to
(30:10):
just be, like, making the windproblem even worse on your farm.
That would kinda be bad. Andthen maybe the other two that
are that come up a lot are treescan be really expensive, but
they also don't have to be.
There are state nurseries thatsell bare root trees that are
(30:31):
like those little guys, and youbuy them in the springtime, and
you plant them in the spring,and they're dormant, and they
come in bundles. Those are thekind of trees we use in the
majority of our plantings, evenfor plantings that we're doing
timber production with. We'dlike to just buy those cheap $5,
$2 small sticks, and that's bothbecause windbreaks usually take
(30:56):
a lot of trees. Like, you'rebuying a bulk amount. So it's
reducing the cost.
But, also, when they're thatsmall, they require less. So if
you've planted, like, a bald andburlap tree in town or in your
yard, like, you gotta go out andwater that thing. Like, it is a
big pumpkin tree with a lot ofroots. You have to keep make
(31:20):
sure those roots are moist. Butwhen it's little, it requires
less, and it'll take more timeto grow, but it will also
require a little bit lesswatering on your part.
We don't water any of ourwindbreaks. I think we've maybe
done it once when we had thatreally, really bad drought a few
years ago. But you're you'regonna wanna get a plant that's
(31:44):
not gonna be really picky. Andthen that last thing is but you
still need to manage it. SoMhmm.
I've I'm sure you guys say thistoo. Like, people will plant a
tree, and they're like, oh, it'sa tree. Like, thing is stronger
than me. It'll grow. But, no,you have to weed it.
You have to make sure there'snot weeds, like, coming up and
(32:09):
suffocating the tree. They treesdo a lot better when you're
giving it, like, a three footradius. No weeds allow it to
really expand its root system.Mulching it is great, but,
really, that weed management isreally, really crucial, even
just mowing. I think yeah.
(32:31):
People think grass can't kill atree, but it can. Grass and and
broad leaves and little greenthings that annoy your tomatoes
also annoy baby trees. So takecare of that.
Chris Enroth (32:46):
And the the answer to the hydrangea question, just
go buy a new one becausethere's, like, a thousand new
ones that come out every year.So just enjoy the new hydrangea
cultivars that come out.
MJ Oviatt (32:57):
Okay.
Chris Enroth (32:57):
We can't keep up. It's impossible. Yeah.
MJ Oviatt (33:02):
Every day, I'm sure.
Ken Johnson (33:03):
Mhmm. Just tell them, it depends. There
Chris Enroth (33:07):
you go.
MJ Oviatt (33:07):
Oh, yeah. They I say that a lot.
Ken Johnson (33:12):
Alright. So you mentioned, there's another,
kinda common agroforestrypractice, riparian buffers. So,
I guess what are first, what arethese? And what are the benefits
to, I guess, installing one ofthese in the landscape?
MJ Oviatt (33:30):
Yeah. I love riparian buffers. I think they also
should just be everywhere. Ithink riparian buffers as a
concept is a little more broadthan agroforestry that is
basically any kind of vegetativebuffer that's surrounding a
(33:50):
waterway of some kind, be it alake, a stream, a ditch,
whatever, a wetland. But theriparian buffers that we talk
about and design at SvanInstitute are woody in nature.
So that's when you're not justincorporating, like, grass or a
prairie, but also doing it withtrees and shrubs. So it's really
(34:15):
just however much space youwanna give that waterway on
either side, you're plantingsome trees and shrubs that are
not necessarily what you wouldput in a windbreak. Sometimes it
is, but there are species thatare native to wet areas, things
like persimmon and hickory andthrow on some sycamore or
(34:41):
something like that, elderberry.But, yeah, that can be really
great for other kinds ofhabitat. Aquatic habitat really
benefits by having some woodystuff in and around it.
It's very much a restorativekind of agriculture system. And
(35:03):
we also do this primarily forthe water quality. We I think,
Chris, you were kind of bringingit up. We see a lot of runoff,
chemical runoff and fertilizerrunoff from our fields. I think
Illinois and Iowa are constantlycompeting for who's putting the
most in the Mississippi River.
(35:23):
Again, not really a competitionI'm really interested in being
part of.
Chris Enroth (35:27):
We're winning. Like,
MJ Oviatt (35:29):
I wanna this is golf. I wanna have a lower score than
Iowa.
Chris Enroth (35:33):
Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah. We're
supposed to have the lower scoreon
MJ Oviatt (35:36):
this one. Yes. They always have to remind me of that
one.
Ken Johnson (35:38):
Yep.
MJ Oviatt (35:39):
But I think I don't know. The funny thing about that
problem to me is, like, that'sjust money going down the drain.
Like, I feel like we don't talkabout that enough. You're play
you're paying to plant you'repaying to put this fertilizer on
your land. Like, you want it tostay there.
You don't want it to just goflushing down the waterway.
(36:00):
Like, nobody wants that. So withriparian buffers, I think the
cool thing that we're lookinginto and we're experimenting
with is, again, incorporatingsome edible or harvestable
species in those riparianbuffers that will act like
sponges. Their root systems arereally, really good at capturing
(36:22):
any of that excess runoff, andit's, like, in the 90
percentile. Like, that that iswhy we love wetlands there.
I don't know if you guys everseen those videos of, like,
water moving through a wetland,and then in the end, it's, like,
super, super clear and purified.That's exactly the concept we
(36:43):
have going on with theseecosystems. So you're putting
that fertilizer on your fieldanyways. Maybe you can start
harvesting something from thoseriparian buffers that are
getting that extra nutrients andthen also stopping it from going
into the water and then, youknow, causing a lot of damage in
(37:06):
the Gulf and creating hypoxiazones and things like that. So,
yeah, that's what a riparianbuffer is.
I'm happy to talk more about it.
Chris Enroth (37:17):
I I like I I really like that idea because
the there's I've heard storiesfrom farmers, and I have a a I
my yard backs up to a farmfield. Their drainage ways are
vegetated, but really justgrass. Mhmm. But a lot of times,
like, the farmers, you know,they plant, they harvest, but
they do contract a lot out aswell. They're not necessarily
(37:40):
overseeing some of the some ofthose field operations that are
going on.
And I've heard stories, and I'veseen with my own eyes some of
these, you know, applicatorsgoing out and just running right
through these waterways just andand just destroying them and
farmers getting upset like, oh,you've you've tore up my my
drainage way. I gotta, you know,reseed it or, you know, we have
(38:02):
to regrade it now because it waswet and and all of these things.
But the idea of putting maybesome more, like, perennial type
woody structure plants outthere, I like that because it
gives it more structure, makesit seem like, hey. This is kind
of a hands off or wheels offkind of area. So I think that
(38:23):
could be incorporated into moreinstances because, you know, we
have fewer farmers.
We have more more more land inin certain in terms of what
they're farming. So they can'tbe everywhere all at once. Now
my wheels are turning, MJ. Yeah.
MJ Oviatt (38:37):
Good. Yeah. I totally agree. I think, with all of
these trees, they very muchcreate a visual, an easy to see
barrier of sorts. Like, treeshave always been used as a way
to, like, delineate differentspaces.
(39:00):
And doing that with thewaterways would be awesome. I
think I don't know. I'm sureyou'll get a question if there's
some farmers listening outthere, like, what about tile
drainage? You can't be doingthis when there's tiled fields.
And my answer to that is, well,we don't really know, and we're
(39:20):
figuring that out.
And, yes, we we're aware thatthis could be a big roadblock
for adoption of agroforestrypractices. However, again, we're
not sure quite how much treeroots would affect tile. And I
think especially if you don'thave a tiled field and are
(39:45):
particularly interested inconservation. If you do have a
waterway, like, really thinkabout adding some woody species
into there because a lot ofwhat's endangered right now is
aquatic species. And, again,we're we have this really large
issue with water quality.
(40:06):
And that water also goes intoour, like, drinking water. So
this isn't just about the Gulf.This is water that also goes
into, like, our aquifers, butalso well water and things like
that. So it's also a localizedissue that's coming off of our
farm fields. Yeah.
I bring up tile, and then I waslike, well, actually, I don't
(40:27):
have an answer to that. I justwant people to be aware that we
know it's a problem that we needto address and figure out. But
right now, we're not too worriedabout it.
Chris Enroth (40:40):
Yeah. Yeah. But the there there was a lot of
the, like, the nitrates in thewater. That was in the news
quite a bit lately in Iowa andalso up in Northern Illinois.
And, you know, in the past, itwas it was a much larger problem
too when more rural folks wereon well water, like dug wells,
(41:01):
even drilled wells, but it itdefinitely was a problem.
And and here it is back in thenews again. And we have dust
storms and all kinds of stuff.What is happening right now? We
need to protect these waterways,riparian buffers. It sounds like
it's it's a it's like a viablestrategy for doing this.
MJ Oviatt (41:19):
Yes. And maybe one more international example that
I think is really worth noting.In Brazil, we're we're seeing a
lot of deforestation for cornand soy production, mostly
soybeans. They're verycompetitive with us now. I'm not
(41:41):
a fan of the deforestationthat's going on down there, but
they also have a lot moreregulation around their buffers.
So they're very much required toleave a lot of room around
waterways down there. And Ithink it's worth noting, like,
that's because we've recognizedhow vital, like, the Amazon is
(42:02):
for the globe's oxygen and just,like, biodiversity, period. But
when The United States was goingout and converting these diverse
ecosystems into highlyproductive ecosystems or highly
productive agricultural systems,We don't have those kind of
(42:22):
rules. So I think it's worthnoting I don't know. Maybe we
should maybe we should thinkabout, like, we also have
biodiversity in North America,and maybe we could be doing more
of what the other parts of theglobe are also doing with terms
of, like, preserving just alittle bit of the land for all
(42:44):
of its benefits that it's givingus.
Ken Johnson (42:47):
Alright. So you mentioned, earlier, but we'll
remind people again. So doesSavannah Institute have examples
of some of this agroforestry, inpractice? And then, like you
mentioned, for your landowners,if you guys provide education
or, you know, an instruction onthis type of stuff.
MJ Oviatt (43:09):
Yeah. We have a ton of that stuff. So we're a
nonprofit. We're a research andeducation nonprofit. So that's
the heart of our mission ishelping people do this and also
figure out the best managementpractices and best designs for
this stuff.
If you wanna come out and seesome real life examples and
(43:31):
you're in Illinois, you can cometo one of our demonstration
farms. I am the main organizerof our field days out there, and
we have one in, like I said,Urbana. That's one that's a 120
acres, and it's one of thelarger demonstration sites in
(43:51):
the country that has windbreaks.There's also some alley cropping
out there and different kinds oftree crops, hazelnuts, black
currants, elderberry. And thenwe have a a little bit more of a
simple demonstration right nextto Allerton Park, the 4 H
Memorial Camp DemonstrationFarm.
(44:14):
That one's a little bit older.That one's in Monticello. That
is an alley cropping site withtimber trees and then corn and
soy rotation in between them.And then in Northern Illinois,
in Ogle County, we are at FieldsRestored. There, we have a
riparian buffer that has someedible and harvestable species
(44:38):
in there, things like pecan,persimmon, willow, elderberry.
And that is in a grazingpasture, and then we're also
doing a silvopasture experimentthere, which is where you
incorporate trees into a grazinglandscape. And silvopasture is
(44:59):
really cool. You guys shouldjust interview somebody who
focuses on silvopasture. Maybeanother episode. And then, yeah,
that's all the stuff inIllinois.
We're gonna be launching apartner farm network next year
in Illinois, which I'm reallyexcited about. So we're doing
(45:19):
this currently in Wisconsinwhere a lot of our work also is.
And the partner farm network isprivate farms that are doing
agroforestry would be part ofthis network and would get to
learn from each other and alsohost field days showcasing how
(45:40):
they're utilizing agroforestrypractices. And I think those are
really exciting because you getto see like, the demonstration
farms are really cool. We'redoing a lot of research there.
But when you see, like, a reallife farmer running their
business with this stuff workingfor them, I think that can
really make people see, like,oh, this is a viable option for
(46:03):
me. So come out to a field day.This is coming out in July.
We're having a ton of fun stuff,in August and September. We're
hosting a big field day, all dayworkshop with extension in
Monticello at that 4 H camp farmat the September, and that's
(46:27):
gonna be really highlighting thewildlife benefits that come from
agroforestry, both for peoplethat just really care about
birds and bees and wildlife, butalso people that love to hunt.
We're gonna be having somedesign presentations on that and
talking about designing thesesystems for big bucks and quail
(46:47):
and pheasant and things likethat. So that's probably the
biggest event I wanna showcase,but we do stuff every month. And
if you go on our website, go onthe events calendar, you can
find stuff there. You can alsoI'll send you this to put in the
(47:08):
show notes. And right now, we interms of other things, if you
don't show up to a field day,that's okay.
There's a lot of information onour website. Should I just share
my screen? I was thinking aboutdoing that. Yeah. Okay.
I wanna show off how cool ourwebsite is. So this is our
(47:31):
website, Perennial AF. If you goup here, we have a lot of
information. You can check outsome different farms. We have
across the Midwest mostly.
That's where we mostly work. Andthen information on all these
different crops. We have a plantbreeding program where we're
(47:53):
breeding some native and, like,native adjacent crops that have
not really gone to market yet inAmerica. So things like black
currants and black walnuts arevery, like, emergent and hybrid
chestnuts and hazelnuts in theMidwest. These are things that
(48:15):
we're collaborating with otherpeople on and also trying to
build markets for.
And those get incorporated intosome other kinds of agroforestry
systems as well, but but you cando those in in windbreaks and
riparian buffers too. There'slots of different resources.
We're really hitting this at allangles. Like I said, we're
(48:37):
doing, like, businessdevelopment and plant breeding
and training young farmers anddemonstrating them and doing
ecosystem science science sothat we're, like, learning what
species utilize these things.And are we really seeing water
quality?
Like, we're we're scientists. Wewanna, like, have evidence of
(49:01):
what's working. And then there'sthat our events hit on the
calendar. And then every year,we have the perennial farm
gathering, you're like, wow. Iwanna join the agroforestry
community.
They sound cool. You can comeand join us there. It's a big
conference, but it's a lot offun people from all over the
(49:23):
country get together and talkabout how to do this thing. So,
yeah, check us out.
Chris Enroth (49:31):
That's so cool. That's like your one stop, like,
website for all youragroforestry needs. I've been
threatening Ken for years. Like,Ken, we need to do more hazelnut
stuff. So I'm going thatwebsite.
We're gonna look into this.
Ken Johnson (49:47):
Yeah. I got five in my backyard.
Chris Enroth (49:50):
Got one. Yeah. I got, like, the straight species,
but I've always just beencurious about, like, more
cultivated types. You know?Like, can we get better flavor,
you know, a little bit biggerkernel size for the hazelnut?
Like, I just I want I wannastudy that more. So I'm gonna go
check it out.
MJ Oviatt (50:09):
Cool. Well, if I'll you could cut this out if you're
like we don't even talk abouthazelnuts at the end, but I'll
add a little hazelnut plug. I'mreally interested in hazelnuts.
They are there's a nativeAmerican hazelnut, which I'm
sure you guys that's why you'reinterested in them. Yeah.
They were all over Illinois, butthey have really hard shells and
Chris Enroth (50:32):
Yes.
MJ Oviatt (50:33):
Smaller nuts than what we're used to buying from
the grocery store. And mosthazelnuts that we eat are grown
in Europe. We're in Oregon, andthe they grow European
hazelnuts. But the Europeanhazelnut is susceptible to an
endemic disease that is inIllinois and in the Midwest
(50:56):
called eastern filbert blight,and it's just everywhere. Like,
they will get it no matter what.
But, of course, the Americanone, it's evolved with it, so it
doesn't get the disease. Sowe're working with folks from
University of Minnesota andUniversity of Wisconsin. They
(51:17):
are doing a lot of developmentwith the Upper Midwest hazelnut
development initiative tohybridize the American and the
European and maybe some otherspecies too to create some
cultivars that are really goodand and highly productive and
(51:37):
economically viable for theMidwest. And up in Wisconsin,
that's where we have more ofthose plants. But at our farm in
Urbana, we have cultivatedvarieties.
And I think it might be one ofthe largest, like, cultivated
variety trial in the Midwest.And those are a lot of stuff
from Oregon and Rutgers also hasa really good breeding program.
(52:01):
So if you guys wanna nerd outmore about hazelnut varieties,
I'm down. Come to the farm inUrbana. I'll show you the beast
and grasshoots and all those.
Have you heard of the beast?
Chris Enroth (52:13):
I've heard of the beast. Yes. I have.
MJ Oviatt (52:16):
Well, we're growing them. We have a lot of a lot of
beasts in our fields.
Chris Enroth (52:22):
Excellent. Oh, this is a road trip that must
happen, Ken. Alright. I'll pickyou up.
Ken Johnson (52:27):
Road trip.
Chris Enroth (52:28):
Yep. Let's go.
MJ Oviatt (52:29):
Great.
Chris Enroth (52:30):
Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. I because I I my
hazelnut in my yard, I actuallyharvested it just from a wild
one I found, propagated it. Youknow, I had, like, 12 seeds. I
think maybe half of thosesprouted.
One of them survived, me mostly.And now I have this, like,
really cool hazelnut shrub in myyard. So but it was you're
(52:53):
right. That the the the shell, Ihad to use a hammer, try to
crack that thing. I mean, it wassuper dense, wound up, like,
smashing some of them, but thelike, that that nut meat on the
inside is so good.
I think I you don't need toroast it or anything. You just
eat it right out of the shell.It was so good.
MJ Oviatt (53:12):
Yeah. I think they're the best. Right. Well
Ken Johnson (53:16):
Squirrels get mine, or I get blank nuts.
Chris Enroth (53:20):
Yeah. And
Ken Johnson (53:22):
we've had those bushes for, like, six years now,
and a couple of them are, like,10 feet tall. I don't think I've
ever eaten a nut off of them.Oh.
MJ Oviatt (53:32):
Oh, you might need another pollinator. They aren't
self pollinated. They need abuddy.
Ken Johnson (53:39):
I've got five, and they're all we got I got them
from from a coworker. I thinkshe got them from Mason State.
So Mhmm. I would assume theypollinate each other.
MJ Oviatt (53:51):
Squirrels love them. Like, if you're in town sorry.
Ken Johnson (53:55):
I'm sorry.
MJ Oviatt (53:56):
Chris, I'm surprised you get nuts from your backyard.
But when you're out in thefarms, like, there's less
squirrels out there, so there'sless of a worry
Chris Enroth (54:05):
with them. We got dogs, I guess. Maybe they but
you have a dog, Ken? Buttercup?She's the most ferocious animal
I've ever seen.
MJ Oviatt (54:14):
It's a ferocious name.
Ken Johnson (54:15):
Yes. Very.
Chris Enroth (54:18):
Well, MJ, I I have one more question for you now
that Ken and I have kind ofnerded out about hazelnut. What
what if you had an agroforestryproject, and and I bet you do,
but, like, let's say you had piein the sky kinda dream budget,
whatever, what species would youwant in your agroforestry
(54:39):
project?
MJ Oviatt (54:41):
Are you gonna say where I am in the state, or
Chris Enroth (54:44):
can I
MJ Oviatt (54:45):
just choose?
Chris Enroth (54:46):
You can Anywhere in the state of Illinois. It
doesn't matter. You go SouthernIllinois, Northern Central. You
can be like, I'm in a valley inthe West Central side of the
state. It doesn't matter.
Yeah.
MJ Oviatt (55:00):
Okay. Well, I'll give Southern Illinois some love.
Okay. They I sometimes wish weworked more down there because
they're already like, they'retree people down there anyways.
Mhmm.
They're surrounded by trees. Sosay I'm outside Saint Louis.
There's some really awesomenorthern pecan growers down
(55:21):
there, and I really lovenorthern pecan. I don't know if
you guys have had, like, freshpecans from Illinois. They're
different.
They're not what you get at thestore. Like, they are so good.
You can tell how much fresherthey are. Sorry, Texas.
Chris Enroth (55:40):
Mhmm.
MJ Oviatt (55:41):
But I'm sure they get them too in in Texas, New
Mexico, whatever. No. That youcan grow pecans in Illinois. And
I think with the way our climateis going, it's just gonna get
warmer, which means we can growmore of these species, and pecan
will become more and moreviable. I'm also a huge fan of
(56:04):
hickory.
I think that is it's related topecan, and Native American folks
have been utilizing hickory andhickory oil for, like, thousands
of years. And I think it's justsomething that we, like, didn't
(56:24):
latch onto in American society.So in my agroforestry system, I
would love to grow lots ofnorthern pecan and hickory nuts
both for oil and maybe somehazelnuts. I'm a nut person even
though
Chris Enroth (56:42):
I have
MJ Oviatt (56:42):
berries in my background. Yep. And then I
definitely have this all plannedout. Like, this is what I want
for my future. It's yeah.
A small farm, specialty crops.We got windbreaks. We're alley
cropping with tree rows of nuts.And then in between, we're doing
(57:02):
vegetables and flowers, and thenthere's, like, a little
restaurant at the farm, andpeople can come and stuff from
the farm. And that's that'sthat's gonna be my life.
I'm manifesting it.
Chris Enroth (57:14):
There you go. Mhmm. Let's get that. Got that
in your your five year planhere.
MJ Oviatt (57:19):
So that that's so cool. That's gonna work it's
gonna happen.
Ken Johnson (57:22):
Yeah. That lottery ticket. Yes.
MJ Oviatt (57:24):
Yep.
Chris Enroth (57:25):
Yes. Alright, Ken. On our road trip, we're gonna
stop at a few nurseries. We'regonna pick up some northern
pecans, some some hickories, andthen we're gonna go learn about
hazelnuts. So I I think thissounds like a great trip.
Ken Johnson (57:37):
Let's do it.
MJ Oviatt (57:39):
Great. You'll get all nutty like the rest of us.
Chris Enroth (57:43):
That's correct. Yeah. Alright.
MJ Oviatt (57:47):
I'd like to, I think, just add one more thing. I think
sometimes I like just, like,saying this because I think a
lot of us a lot of people think,like, oh, they're crazy. Like,
this won't work. We can't dothis. And I think I want to,
like, recognize not every farmhas to incorporate agroforestry,
(58:08):
but if we incorporate some onour landscape, something in
every county, like, the amountof good that would do is
enormous.
I helped plant our farm inUrbana, and it was like any
other normal spring plantingseason. Everyone was out there
in the field. It's all corn andsoybeans surrounding us. And,
(58:31):
like, you know, the land wasjust completely bare, but
instead of planting an annualseed, we were planting trees.
And we have just seen such atransformation just in three
years of the amount of, like,birds and butterflies and frogs
and, like, different speciescoming back out there.
And I think, like, if you'reinclined to do some
(58:52):
conservation, maybe you have afew acres that aren't highly
productive with your corn crop,or there's some weird, I don't
know, trapezoid that you have,like, think about doing
agroforestry there. Like, itwill still produce something for
you. We're happy to work withyou. You're not alone and
(59:14):
interested in doing this. Soit's every little bit, I think,
counts, and it's awesome to seewith your own eyes the change
that you can make on thelandscape.
And I think I'm sure you guyshave seen this with your
gardening. Like, just growingthings will bring other life to
you, and it's just such a joy.And it's something I love about
(59:36):
this work. So it's my littleconclusion for you all.
Chris Enroth (59:41):
Excellent way to to cap this off. So well, that
was a lot of great informationabout agroforestry. We dove into
windbreaks and riparian buffers.So there's a lot to digest.
Check out the links below in theshow notes.
Well, the good growing podcastis a production of University of
Illinois Extension, edited thisweek by Ken Johnson. And MJ,
(01:00:02):
thank you so much for joining usthis week. This has just been an
absolute pleasure getting tolearn more about agroforestry,
more about more about thepractices that we can
incorporate on our land, andthen where we can go, like the
hazelnut farm where I can learnall about the beasts and Grand
Traverse and all of the otherhybrids out there that are
growing over in the eastern partof the state. I am looking
(01:00:26):
forward to getting out there.Thank you very much for being
here today.
MJ Oviatt (01:00:29):
Thank you very much. Glad I fangirled two years ago
at a conference with you guys toget Well, on the
Chris Enroth (01:00:38):
it's our it was our one and only. So actually,
Ken got another selfie withsomeone at the football games.
There you go. It also He getsrecognized a lot.
MJ Oviatt (01:00:48):
It's a long run. It's a it's a long game. You'll get
there. Yes. Okay.
Great. Thanks, guys.
Ken Johnson (01:00:57):
Yes. And thank you, MJ. I'm glad we finally got
around to doing this. Next time,it won't take two years.
Promise.
MJ Oviatt (01:01:04):
Okay. Maybe on my end, it will.
Ken Johnson (01:01:08):
And, Chris, thank you as always, and let's do this
again next week.
Chris Enroth (01:01:13):
Oh, we shall do this again next week. We are up
to our eyeballs in in weeds, atleast in my yards. The
horticulture hijinks willcontinue on the Good Growing
podcast next week. So listeners,thank you for doing what you do
best and that is listening or ifyou're watching us on YouTube
watching. And as always, keep ongrowing.
(01:01:42):
Okay, Ken. You remember this isthe Good Growing podcast. Right?
You've been gone a long time.Welcome to the Good Growing
podcast.
I am Chris Enroth, horticultureeducator with University of
Illinois Extension. Blah blahblah. See, I I this is the only
time I've ever messed up. Let metake that over. Start over
(01:02:03):
again.
Alright. Take two.
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