Ep. 221 Compost your way: Passive and active composting styles | #GoodGrowing - Good Growing

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris (00:05):
Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris
Enroth, horticulture educatorwith the University of Illinois
Extension coming at you fromMatcombe, Illinois, and we have
got a great show for you today,composting, letting things sit
around and rot. Yes. It's gonnabe a fun topic today, and this
is a thing that might mightpeople might not wanna do. Maybe

(00:27):
they get a lot of work, butwe're gonna show you.
It can be super simple and easyif you want it to be or as
complicated as you would preferit to be. So you know I'm not
doing this by myself. I amjoined as always every single
week by horticulture educatorKen Johnson in Jacksonville.
Hey, Ken.

Ken (00:43):
Hello, Chris. I think that that perfectly describes just
about anything in gardening. Youcan make it as simple or as
complicated as you want.

Chris (00:51):
That's true. Yeah. That that's pretty true. And and
folks, if you wanna keep itsimple, maybe just stop
listening to podcasts aboutgardening, stop reading books
about gardening. Just don'tlearn anything because the more
you learn, the more complicatedit seems to get.
I don't know what to do anymore.The more ideas you have. I know.

(01:12):
I know. I'm I'm running out of II'm running out of budget.
I'm running out of space. I'mrunning out of so much stuff. So
stop learning right here, rightnow. We're not a very good
educational podcast. But, Ken, Iguess, I'm curious, do you
compost at home?

Ken (01:32):
Yeah. I guess you could call it that. We take the very
simplistic approach to it, andwe just have a pile Mhmm. In the
backyard. And I'm sure hardcorecomposters would cringe, at what
I've had going on in thebackyard, but we, we'll call
that comp.
And we've done a vermicompost. Iprobably won't talk about that

(01:53):
much today, but we've we've donethat in the past, usually just
in the winter. Mhmm. Keep sayingyou need get more worms, but I
never actually get to the pointof getting more worms. So we
haven't done it for a few years.
Yeah. How about you?

Chris (02:08):
About the same. So I I would assume, yes, the hardcore
composters, they're definitelygonna have some issues here with
today. I my compost pile is isjust that. It's an open pile. I
do vermicompost.
I've been doing that since 2012.I have taken a year off of that

(02:29):
though, and so oh my gosh. '20so 2024. Yeah. It's it's been a
long time.
I've been a long timevermicomposter. So, yeah, I just
it's do a little bit ofeverything. Ken, I suppose our
first thing we need to define iscompost. What is it? What is

(02:52):
this black gold as we call it?
Yes.

Ken (02:56):
I'll read the USDA definition here. So composting,
is the controlled aerobicdecomposition of organic matter
by microorganisms into a stablehumus like soil amendment. The
final material should have thefollowing characteristics,
unorganizable originalmaterials, dark brown, no

(03:18):
foreign matter, so on and soforth. So taking organic
material, breaking it down intohumus like. So, like, the soil
stuff, not hummus that you eat.
That's what I don't know what ishummus. Sesame. Chickpeas?
Chickpeas, sesame, olive oil.Mhmm.

(03:38):
Some other stuff. Yeah.

Chris (03:39):
Garlic.

Ken (03:40):
Yeah. You don't wanna eat this stuff.

Chris (03:42):
No. Just hummus like and not hummus like. Yeah. I think
and did they also say into,like, a soil component? Is that
what it had described it as?
I thought I heard the s word inthere, the soil word. Ah, yes.
Soil amendment. Ah, soilamendment. So this is, I think,

(04:07):
an important distinction.
It is something that my soulsprofessor drove into our head is
that compost or organic matter,in this case, is not soil. A lot
of folks will say this compostis soil. And the professor would
say, no. It is not. It is acomponent or it is a part of it,
where as it is really just asmall teeny tiny little fraction

(04:31):
of it.
So in this soil that that thatwe imagine in our head like that
ideal soil, half of it is porespace and the other half is like
physical material. Most of thatphysical material are minerals,
sand, silt, and clay. And anideal soil, we would only be
looking at about a 5% organicmatter. And that organic matter,

(04:55):
that would be the compost. Like,that's that thing that we could
be adding into that soil.
And so that I think that's animportant distinction that that
I had, you know, been testedover many times about this
particular, you know, what iscompost, what is organic matter.
And and especially, you know,when you would be going out to

(05:18):
fill a hole in the yard andsomeone would throw compost in
the hole and said, I filled it.Well, only temporarily because
compost is not permanent. Itgoes away. So when we're filling
holes in the yard or we'releveling things, we wanna use
mineral components of the soil.
But but the organic matter isvery important and critical for

(05:39):
what makes soil soil. Whatbecause soil is alive. The other
thing that has driven into myhead multiple times, the the
living, breathing soil and thatfed with organic matter.

Ken (05:59):
Yeah. So it's it's it's going to be an important
component because a lot of oursoils, what, knowing we're,
like, 5%. Mhmm. You know, someof your you get down further
south in The US, that that soilstart that organic matter starts
dropping, quite a bit and stuff.So it's one of the reasons why

(06:19):
we have good soils here is thatYes.
That higher organic matter, toit. And and the other the sand
silt clay ratios and stuff helpstoo.

Chris (06:28):
Mhmm. Yeah. And the previous land uses and and all
that. Yeah. The the history, wecould get into soils.
That would be another goodpodcast topic. Coming up next
week, the history of soils inIllinois. No. I'm kidding. We
don't know.
Don't know. Can't talk aboutthat yet. I need to read a book
or something first.

Ken (06:47):
Maybe a few.

Chris (06:49):
Yeah. Mhmm.

Ken (06:52):
So I guess we should probably go into so now that
we've kinda defined, I guess,the process of what compost is,
how do we go about making saidblack and gold?

Chris (07:02):
Yes. I I think at the very beginning, had referenced
this. It it can be a littleintimidating. The especially if
you sat through, like, acomposting class, and we'll get
into this stuff, but you'veheard the terms like, oh, your
carbon to nitrogen ratio, makingsure that you're layering things
together and you're addingenough water and air and and all

(07:23):
that. Maybe you're like, well,that's not for me, and that's
fine.
Composting can be a lot of work.It it can be really simple. So
on that simple side of of theequation is passive composting
where you're literally justpiling things up in a part of
your yard and you just let itsit there. And it will compost

(07:45):
just like if you are doing theother end of the spectrum where
you're doing active composting,where you are maybe measuring
out the the differentingredients you're adding to the
pile, you're turning it, you'remaking sure that it is well
watered, that it is aerated,you're using a a thermometer
probe to measure thetemperature. You know, once
you're you know, that that'sthat's a lot of work.

(08:08):
It can be a lot of fun. I'd saythat it could both be a lot of
fun because at the end, you getcompost. But the active
composting, you know, you couldgo from raw material to a
finished compost within, youknow, maybe three, four weeks a
month when during the warms partof the year. Whereas with the
passive composting, it mighttake you a year or longer for

(08:31):
that pile to really break down.And it really breaks down in the
center, and then, you know, theyou might dig out the center to
use that compost and just sortof keep piling things on like I
do.
No turning here. Just harvestwhere I can get the pitchfork in
into the middle. So that thatthat's really a range of effort
for you, passive versus activecomposting.

Ken (08:54):
Yeah. I think, you know, the the passive I think the
maybe the composting puristswouldn't consider that
composting because it's justkinda setting letting it rot.
Whereas I think, you know,you're you're more hardcore. I
don't if that's right term, butthat's think in that, in their
mind, composting is that actualactive whereas just sitting

(09:19):
there isn't, you know, truecomposting. But for our
definitions, it is.

Chris (09:27):
I believe everyone can be a composter, Ken. Oh, yes. I and
yeah. So and and we'll get tosome of the ways that you can
build these piles. But remember,like, the way I do it is I I
literally, I cut things and Ijust drop them on the ground.
And then when I get maybe pilesof things and it's too much,

(09:49):
I'll just take it over to thethe compost pile. So, you know,
whether it's sitting there whereI just cut it next to the plant,
it will rot naturally rightthere or or compost naturally
right there. Sorry. Didn't meanto use the r word. I can take it
over to an actual pile where Ido have a lot of landscape
debris over there, throw it ontop there.

(10:11):
I mean, that that's what I do.It's and I'm not measuring
anything. I'm just gettingthrowing stuff here and there.

Ken (10:20):
Yep. That's pretty much what we do. We just dump them.
Half time, we don't even cut. Itjust gets dumped.
And I think we've had that pilefor how long has it been there
now? Six, seven years? I don'tthink I've ever taken anything
out of it. I probably shouldopen it up and see what's, like,
on the inside, but

Chris (10:39):
They get smaller, though. Right? Like, it it shrinks and
then you add more to it, then itcould,

Ken (10:44):
you know, so Yep. Over time, it'll yeah. You can tell
if if we haven't had anything ina while, it'll slowly shrink
down.

Chris (10:52):
I guess, Ken, then like, my pile is sort of tucked away
in in a shaded part of the yard.Where is yours located? Do do
does that matter what type ofsunlight it's getting?

Ken (11:06):
Yeah. Ours is in the shade too. As far as sun versus shade,
it probably doesn't reallymatter a whole lot. It's gonna
compost whether it's in the sunor the shade. I will say that
the sun and during the summer,it may dry out a little bit
quicker, and and moisture isgonna be important.
If you let it dry out, thecomposting process is gonna
start or stop. So maybe havingafternoon shade would be

(11:30):
beneficial. If you got it infull sun, it'll it'll still
compost. You just kinda probablyhave to keep a closer eye on
those moisture levels. So that'sa really where if you've got a
spot, it doesn't really matter,sun, shade.
Mhmm. You can still do it.

Chris (11:44):
Yeah. I guess I mentioned measuring the the temperature.
That doesn't really have as muchto do with sun. That's more
microbial activity that'screating that heat. So just
clarification there.
That's what I meant by that,that heat.

Ken (12:00):
Yeah. Yeah. Those microbes are breaking things down. Heat's
gonna be given off, and yourpile will will heat up, and
that'll, you know, help breakhelp the process of breaking
things down and just kinda feedsitself.

Chris (12:12):
Yeah. One of the things, like, if you are an active
composter though, you you wouldwanna have it near a water
source. And that because I thinkbecause you do need to irrigate
your compost pile. Because forthose microbes to activate, they
need two things in kind of abalanced formula. They need

(12:35):
water and air.
And without one of those things,usually too dry, as you
mentioned, Ken, composting thatthat decomposition stops. Too
much water and our aerobiccomposting stops, and we start
getting anaerobic composting forrotting, which is decomposition

(13:00):
without oxygen, which createslots of smelly gases like sulfur
and things like that. And sowatering your pile is important
getting down, especially in theinterior. So that might mean
when you're when you're buildingyour pile or when you're turning
it, you might need to water itas you, you know, begin building

(13:20):
it up or start turning it layerby layer. That that way, you'd
know that interior of the pilehas gotten has gotten moisture
into it.
I know I've seen folks, theywill water the top of it, but if
you dig down just maybe a footdown, that water does not
penetrate all the way down tothe center of the pile. And so

(13:44):
it's something important toknow. And and I guess I do know
some people even cover theircompost pile to hold some of
that moisture in so they don'thave to water as often.

Ken (13:52):
Or to prevent excess moisture if you're a lot of you
know, if we're getting not thatyou know, you probably put this
on all the time, not just whenit's getting rainy, but, yeah,
if you if you're getting a lotof rain and stuff, that can help
keep that water out of there soit's not getting too wet and,
yeah, getting anaerobic and niceand smelly on you. Oh,

Chris (14:11):
yeah. Mhmm. And the I think the ideal size, your
critical mass for a compost pileis something like a cubic yard.
Like, that's the smallest itneeds to be or it can be. You
use smaller than that.
It's gonna be really hard for itto to fire up some of that

(14:31):
decomposition. It will stillwork, just not as fast. And but
but, yeah, that that three bythree by three ish cubic yard,
that's something you would youwould be shooting for when
you're building your pile.

Ken (14:50):
They usually have three by three by three up to, like, five
by five by five. It's usually

Chris (14:54):
Mhmm.

Ken (14:54):
Kind of the recommendations you see somewhere somewhere in
that range. Yes. Not too big,not too small. It's not that
Goldilocks zone.

Chris (15:01):
Yes. We'll be talking more about that Goldilocks,
everything in moderation later.

Ken (15:09):
So then when it comes to, I guess, actually, you know, what
so we know we need moisture. Weknow we need air. You know, the
size. Well, what are we actuallyputting in there? So we've got
our our brown materials and ourgreen materials.
And that's when we start gettinginto that that carbon to
nitrogen ratio. So typically,we're looking at somewhere
between 20 to 30 to one.Depending where you were twenty

(15:30):
twenty five to one, probably aneasy way to remember that. So
you've got 25 parts carbon toone part nitrogen, and that's
kind of the ideal ratio, forthis to to be broken down, into
that kind of that high quality,compost. If you get, you know,
too much carbon in there, it'snot gonna break down as well.

(15:52):
Too much nitrogen, you mightstart getting a little little
smelly on you. Like, usually,that's high moisture stuff that
your nitrogen sources. So yournitrogen sources are gonna be
things like vegetable scraps,kitchen waste, and that's what
usually 15 to one ratio, 12 toone ratio, something like that.

(16:12):
So it's it's a lower carbon, sothat's gonna be considered a
green. Grass clippings, would beanother one.
You could do weeds. Just makesure you're taking off seed
heads because our, our ourcompost systems in backyards
probably are not gonna get hotenough to kill weed seeds. And
even if you are getting it thathot, it's probably not gonna
kill all of them. So those aresome examples of of some greens

(16:35):
you could use if you have accessto, manures, like livestock,
cow, pig, chicken, what haveyou, you could do that. You
wanna avoid cat, dog, humanwaste, because, you know, we're
predators or and there'spathogens in there that we could
pass on through that.

(16:55):
So we're sticking towards, Iguess, your vegetarian animals,
your livestock, chicken. I guesschickens eat eat, but you can
put chicken in there. Or chickencompost, probably don't wanna
put real chick live deadchickens in there, at least in
the backyard. And yeah. So andavoiding meat, bones because

(17:18):
you'll get critters coming in,raccoons and stuff, digging it
up, a lot of fatty foods, oilyfoods that can clog up that pore
space, and that, again, attractwildlife and stuff.
And as far as the browns, that'sgonna be leaves in the fall,

(17:39):
straw. It could be, like, woodmulch. That's gonna be pretty
high carbon nitrogen ratio.Three, four, 500 to one. So
you're gonna need a lot of alittle bit of that's gonna go a
long way.
Same thing with something likesawdust. It's a really high
carbon to nitrogen ratio. Morethan likely in most landscapes,
I would say browns are not gonnabe an issue finding those. At

(18:01):
least for us, a lot of times,you you have plenty of browns,
but sometimes the greens aren'tkind of at the level that you
would need, you know, if you'regonna be doing this all at once.
So some people will, like,freeze those greens and hold on
to them until they get enoughthat they can start layering it
when we get to talking aboutbuilding the pile.
So there's there's multipledifferent things, we can use to

(18:25):
to build our piles.

Chris (18:27):
Well and I guess speaking of building a pile, it sounds
like both you and I can don't dothis. But if we were if we were
going to start an an activecompost pile, we would want to
measure things out at least. Andand and I think for the most
part, we're doing this byvolume. We're sort of just

(18:48):
eyeballing all of this. If youwanted to get a big scale and
and weigh everything out,definitely could do that.
But but for the most part ofthis, you know, we've got a
couple buckets of this, a couplebuckets of that, and buck you
know, so we're we're sort ofdoing this just by bucket load,
wheelbarrow full. And and sotaking your greens, you know, I

(19:12):
think a lot of compostinginstruction starts with layering
things. And and so that's theyou know, that's a great way to
start because it can help youvisually see, you know, again,
sort of the 20 to 30 to one. Soyou would be taking, like, one
part of your green, and then youwould be put that down on a
layer, and then you would addtwo to three parts of your brown

(19:34):
material, carbon material. Andand I guess also yeah.
I think you described severalmaterials, Ken, that just
because we call them, like,green materials and brown
materials, color is notnecessarily an indication of how
much nitrogen they have. Likecoffee grounds, they have a
lower CNN ratio. I think it's,like, like, 20 to one, twenty

(19:57):
five to one, I think, as opposedto, you know, something else
like straw or wood chips, whichis much higher. So yeah. And
manures, as you said, thosearen't usually green.
They're all usually darkercolor. And so yeah. Yeah. Just I
think be aware too that colordoesn't indicate necessarily how

(20:20):
much nitrogen something has. Butthere are tables and lists
online that that can list thedifferent ingredients in your
compost pile and what theircarbon and nitrogen ratio would
be so that you don't get onejust completely out of whack
where you're just, like, sittingthere for years, like, why isn't
anything happening?

(20:41):
Or it's just maybe you justadded way too much nitrogen
material, and it's just sortareally firing up. Sometimes they
can steam. They can get prettyhot. They can smell with that
that excess green material.Again, usually, it's lot too
much moisture.
So Ken had had said, you know,if we're we're mounding this up,

(21:04):
so one part green, two part twoto three parts brown. What
happens when we have too muchcarbon? Just so often the case
in our neck of the woods withtrees and leaves, and if you get
a tree, gets gets cut down. Youhave wood chips. What do you do
with that excess carbon?
Well, you can actually sprinkleon a little bit extra nitrogen

(21:24):
fertilizer in your compost pileto to balance or even that out,
just a just a little bit. So,yeah, if you've you've put you
know you've put a lot morecarbon materials, try fertilizer
nitrogen fertilizer.

Ken (21:40):
Yeah. And a lot of times when people are building these
these piles, we're doing thelayering, so you got your
lasagna, browns on the bottom,then your greens. And a lot of
times, we'll take a scoop ofsoil or something or or finish
compost, put that on there, andthat's gonna introduce, I guess,
more but there's gonna bemicrobes there anyway, but
that's gonna introduce moremicrobes. So may may not take

(22:01):
quite as long for that stuff toreally, get going. And you just
a lot of times with your activeat least from people I've I've
listened to and talked to, a lotof times you're building that
kinda all at once, and thenyou're actively managing that.
And then you're gonna startbuilding another file. You're
not necessarily continuallyadding on, to that active files
because, you know, as things arebreaking down, you're adding new

(22:22):
stuff in it's it can get alittle complicated. You can
certainly do it. But lot oftimes people are doing, a three
bin system where they've got onethat's actively composting.
They're building one and they'vegot one like finishing.
So it's it's done composting.It's cooled off and then let it
sit for a little bit, pull thatout and then build your new one
there. When you're building isthey can become your active.

(22:42):
When you have been working on isis becoming your kind of sitting
and aging type of thing. So invariety of different ways that
you can go about doing this.
And there's all kinds ofdifferent plans online for
there's how to do it. Therethere's bins. There's different

(23:03):
things you can gadgets, thetumblers and stuff so you're not
having to go in with a apitchfork or some kind of fork
and turn them. You can just, youknow, crank a wheel there to get
that done. There's rollers thatyou just roll around in your
yard that I've seen.
Probably should've gotten one ofthose when the kids were
younger. That would've been thatwould've been good. But I think

(23:24):
there's the University ofWisconsin has a bunch of plans,
like, different compost binsetups on their website. So we
can throw a link to that in theshow notes.

Chris (23:36):
We actually did have one of those rolly compost bins that
you could roll around on theground, and looked like the
Death Star. We should havepainted it to look like the
Death Star. The novelty ofrolling it around with the kids
wore off almost immediately.They do get heavy. Oh, yeah.

(23:58):
Yeah. That that there's lots ofdifferent methods. And I I think
because there's so manydifferent styles, if you have
maybe space constraints, thereare smaller compost bin
tumblers, you know, smallerthings you can use in in a,
like, a smaller yard, maybe evenon, a patio or a a a porch,

(24:19):
something like that. And if ifyou're worried things like like
rodents, vermin, that so likethat, you know, Ken and I, we've
we've talked we have opencompost piles. You can do a
closed pile like the tumbler,like a closed bin, like the
rolly thing that my kids didn'tlike to roll around the yard.
So there are ways to, create aphysical barrier from your

(24:44):
compost that's occurring and andanything else that you might not
want scratching around in yourpile, like like rodents or your
family pets.

Ken (24:53):
Yeah. And speaking of rodents, it may be a good thing
if to check on, any ordinances.There may be nothing in up in
Chicago. I think there are some,rules about, bins and stuff,
openings, how big they can be toprevent, rats and stuff. If
you're a more rural area,probably not gonna be any
restrictions.
If you live in a city, you maywanna check to see if there's

(25:15):
any, kind of restrictions or anyrules you have to follow when
you're when you're composting.

Chris (25:21):
Very good point. Yeah. And and you had mentioned, Ken,
sometimes people will freezetheir stuff to to hold it before
adding it to the pile. That is areally good technique to kinda
reduce the mass or the size ofmaterial. Shredding it also does
the same.

(25:41):
And then what both of thosetechniques do is that, you know,
freezing, you can you can kindabreak those cell walls, makes it
easier for micro bes to get inthere and decompose stuff.
Shredding things gives you moresurface area, allows those
microbes to get in there,decompose them quickly. So
again, I'm kinda thinking, like,you can do this if you have, you
know, 50 acres, but also if youhave, like, a really small area

(26:05):
where you're composting, youknow, freeze it, shred it,
reduce that particle size. Andnot only will it reduce the pile
size, it will also potentiallycompost faster.

Ken (26:18):
Yeah. As I say, especially if you're using leaves,
something that if you've got aaccess to a chipper shredder or
just run over them with alawnmower first, you know,
reduce that size, increase thatsurface area. That'll Yeah.
That'll help quite a bit, whichis probably why one of the
reasons why ours isn't compostvery fast because it's gets
thrown on as is. That's not aslittle effort as possible.

Chris (26:42):
But, you know, I I tell myself and my wife that the only
thing holding me back from beingan active composter is getting a
gas powered chipper shredder,you know, something that could
handle, like, a 10 inch wide logor something because I wanna go
cut whole trees down and dothis. You know, 10 inches would
be excessive. Like, I think mostgo, what, three inches of

(27:06):
diameter branches?

Ken (27:08):
Or I think that's what they say. Yeah. Sometimes you get
bigger than that. He doesn'tlike it, but

Chris (27:13):
Read your manual. Don't listen to me. Oh, yeah. So,
still in the market for thatgood chipper shredder, that we
talked about in years past.

Ken (27:25):
I'll I'll write you a note if you need.

Chris (27:27):
Thank you.

Ken (27:27):
That's what think. Our next, I guess, point or or
questions we get sometimes is,can you compost in the winter?
So, you know, there's charts outthere. I don't know if there's
any that we could pop in here ornot, but, you you kinda look at
the peak activity or theactivity you're in a compost,
but a lot of times you're thepeaks really going up in the
summer as it's getting warmer,everything's, you know, active

(27:51):
and going. And as it startscooling off, you know, your
activity starts going down.
When we get into the winter,when it starts getting real
cold, the the your your activityof your back your bacteria, your
microbes, and stuff really kindatails off. But if it's not too
terribly cold, there's stillthere's still gonna be some
composting going on outdoors. Soit it can go on in the winter,

(28:15):
but the activity and kind of theamount of composting going down
is gonna be much, much lowerthan during kind of the active
growing season. So that's why inin our house in the past, we've
done, the vermicomposting. Andeven then, you know, your worms
eat can eat up to kind of theirtheir body weight in foods.

(28:36):
So if you have a pound of worms,it's a pound of of kitchen
scraps. So even now, unlessyou've got multiple bins, you're
you're still probably stillprobably have more, kitchen
scraps than you're gonna be ableto compost. So you could freeze
them then if you wanted to.

Chris (28:54):
Right. Yeah. We're the same boat with the
vermicomposting. Maybe that thatwill be the future show that we
can talk about. But there I Inoticed with the worm bin that
it as long as I even when theworm bin wasn't as active, as
long as I took our kitchenscraps and I threw them in there
and I covered them up withsomething, some of the compost

(29:15):
or shredded paper, whatever wehad in there, we never had
issues with, like, odor, neverhad issues with with flies,
anything like that.
And so if you're really seriousabout maybe diverting waste from
the landfill with your kitchenscraps, you could potentially

(29:37):
get, like and depending how muchstorage you have in your house,
get, five gallon buckets orwhatever and and put soil or
sawdust, potting mix, somethingwhere then, you know, you have
that bucket and then you putyour kitchen scraps in there and
then you just you cover that upto reduce the odor. I think

(29:57):
sometimes people add things likelime to to halt or kinda reduce
odors as well. If you're reallyserious about holding your
greens in the wintertime so youcan put them out in the
springtime to then compost thatyear. So that that is an option.
Depending on how much you cookat home, you might need lots of

(30:20):
space to store five gallonbuckets or whatever size tote
you use.
And I guess another thing I'veI've seen

Ken (30:29):
oh, I don't wanna say a lot, but becoming a little more
prominent, I guess, is the, Iguess, countertop composters. So
you put your stuff in there andthen, I don't know, they heats
it up and it turns it in intwenty four hours, you have
compost. Supposedly, I I don'tthink that's really would be
considered compost. You've kindacooked it, started the the

(30:51):
process of breaking it down.I've never tried them.
I wouldn't be surprised if, youknow, you put some seeds in
there, try to grow it. Theyprobably would struggle, and
that that's that's way too fastto get kinda full fully kinda
stable compost. So that may besomething you know, you can do

(31:12):
something like that, store that,and then use that in your
compost bin or your worm bin.But I wouldn't use that as
straight up compost. Thosetabletop or countertop ones,
they've got, you know, differentwell, they run for twenty four
hours or eight hours or justkinda depending on the mode and
usually put a tablet in there.

(31:32):
I'm assuming that's got microbesor something in there to speed
speed up the process and stuff.But I've never I've never looked
at, you know, at the at thefinished stuff, but I I can't
imagine that would be what youconsider compost stable. It's
too quick.

Chris (31:52):
That I think they call it Bokashi, or is that what it is?
Like, that style of countertopcomposting. I've never done it
myself either, but I've heard itdescribed less decomposition,
more fermentation. Like, you'reand you gotta be careful with

(32:12):
fermentation. If that's what itis, maybe I'm totally off the
mark here because a lot of timeswe do that to preserve things
and to so decomposition doesn'ttake place.
So, yeah, I think it's somethingprobably I need to study about
more. Well, Ken, I guess, youknow, speaking of finished

(32:34):
compost, you know, knowing whencompost is done, what exactly
are we looking for when we wantto go in and use this compost
that we have created?

Ken (32:47):
So when you're when you think you're done, your your
compost, whatever you're pullingout of there, it's not gonna
smell or it's gonna smell likesoil. It's not gonna have any
kind of off smells to it. It'sgonna have that kind of darker
brown color to it, earthy aroma.And you're not gonna be able to
tell really what it was made outof. So you can't you're not
gonna be like, oh, there's thatcarrot I put in there.

(33:10):
You know, that's gonna be brokendown. You know, there's that,
you know, straw. You can'tyou're not gonna be able tell
it's made from straw or carrotsor apples or whatever, you put
in there. So you can do thatkind of visually. Another thing
you can is you can kinda testit.
So you get containers. You putsome with regular soil in there,

(33:30):
a fifty fifty soil compost mixor what pulling out as compost,
and then the compost by itself.Put some seeds in there.
Something like germinatesquickly, something like
radishes, and then see how thatgerminates. If it's really
struggling in your in yourcompost, your fifty fifty mix,
probably an indication that,it's not quite ready, assuming

(33:51):
it's not struggling in yourregular soil too.
Your your kind of your regularsoil is is your check more or
less. And then that those ifit's struggling and, you know,
it's not germinating well, it'sit's really yellow, that's
probably an indication thatthat's not quite ready yet. You
may need to turn or or dosomething to that to let it
break down or a little more orlet it rest a little bit to kind

(34:14):
of finish up that process. Onceit's done cooking or once it's
not warm anymore, there's stillgonna be a process breaking that
down. You're gonna havedifferent microbes moving in
after it's done, with that tothat that hot compost kinda
period that your your tinomycesand and the fungus and stuff
will move in, and kinda finishoff, that compost.

Chris (34:37):
And the I think the term finished compost might maybe it
doesn't represent the best wayto to say that because, yeah,
it's not done yet. It might bedone with that that hot active
composting, but, yeah, there'sstill a whole lot, probably
chemically, that needs to go onto keep breaking that material

(35:00):
down as the the fungi then movein and and really work to break
those bonds apart to make thosenutrients and plant available.
Yeah. I just thought about that.Yeah.
Finished compost. Now I don'tknow. Should I say that anymore?

Ken (35:18):
And we've never really talked too much about, actually,
what's it doing?

Chris (35:22):
Yeah. We didn't.

Ken (35:25):
So so, yeah, we've, you know, we've mentioned microbes.
You've got, you know, microbesthat are so usually, when when
we're composting, you know, whenyou're where it's actively
composting, actively in quotesthere, you know, that 90 to 140,
150 degrees, you've got thebacteria that do really well in
there. And they're doing a a lotof that composting. That that's
generating the heat, helpingthat heat up. And then as you're

(35:48):
turning that, that's introducingoxygen and and stuff.
So it's you're you're constantlydo that. After a while, you
know, they've kind of doneeverything they can and starts
cooling off. And then you havedifferent microbes moving in,
like, tinomyces, which are kindof type of bacteria. The fungus
start moving in because theycan't handle those real hot
temperatures. So as it coolsoff, they move in.

(36:10):
You'll have insects and stuff inthere. If you get a lot of flies
and stuff, that may be anindication it's going aerobic
and stuff. But it's it's normalto have insects, worms, mites,
and stuff kind of on the outsidewhere it's cooler. You know,
they feed down that stuff,breaking it down into smaller
pieces, which is gonna helpthose microbes and stuff. So
unless you've got any, you anexcessive amount of flies,

(36:33):
that's normal to have, you know,those other critters on there.
But, yeah, again, as it'sfinishing up, you've got other
stuff moving in. So you'veprimarily bacteria doing it,
fungus, and and and smallinvertebrates and stuff. And as
Dwayne Friend, like to put itoff, if you ever wanna not have

(36:55):
to turn, just throw some bonesin there and the raccoons will
turn your your compost for you.

Chris (37:01):
Yeah. Oh, man. That's one animal I try not to attract to
my yard after having them livein my attic for years before we
bought our house. It's constantfight. I so I I did visit
someone who was an activecomposter, and they do these
batch batches of compost wherethey gather coffee grounds from
the local coffee shop, and thenthey have all they have, like,

(37:22):
wood chips, shredded leaves, a acouple other kitchen scraps that
they'll throw into their compostpile.
And I like, it's in thesecircular bins, and I did think
and say to them that, man, itmust not be easy to turn these.
He brandished this weaponlooking thing, this giant metal
arrow that he, like, shoved intothe pile and the arrowhead

(37:47):
collapsed on itself, and then hecould shove it in. And then when
he pulled it up, it it flings orthere's spring loads or that
those arrow sides flare backout. And as you pull it up, it
it just aerates that that entirepile. So I'm like, wow.
Well, that is a great tool forthat job. And so you don't have
to actually get a pitchfork inthere and turn this compost pile

(38:09):
over. That and and he was a he'sactive composter, looking to
start a business selling it. Sothere's all kinds of gizmos and
gadgets too out there to helpyou.

Ken (38:21):
Yeah. And we mentioned the the temperature compost
thermometers and stuff. Sothat's that's one tool you can
use, you know, kinda monitor theheat of the pile. Usually, put
that in down towards the baseinto the middle, and that's
gonna give you so if you cankinda track to see, you know, if
you've got some of that activecompost going on, if it's

(38:41):
starting to cool off, that maybe an indication it's it's time
to turn and stuff. And thosearen't those are gonna be a
little pricier than your normalkitchen thermometer that you're
using.
Mhmm. Another thing I've I'veheard people using it and heard
people talk about is just using,like, a piece of rebar, sticking
it in there, leave it in therefor a day, come back later. This

(39:03):
is gonna work better if you'rein the shade than full sun, but
then kinda feel that. And ifit's if it's pretty warm,
assuming the sun's not heatingit up, that's an indication that
you're you're activelycomposting. But if it's cool to
the touch, I mean, theindication that that the pile
may be slowing down, so maybetime to turn.
So and that's that's gonnathat's more your active if

(39:23):
you're just doing a passive. Youknow, you're not worrying about
temperature necessarily. Youmaybe turn it every once in a
while. If you're actively doingit, you may be turning, what,
once a week, every other week,something like that. Whereas
commercially, they I think theyespecially when they first
start, they may be doing turningevery other day.
Somebody that giant piles,windrows, and stuff. So it's a

(39:48):
little bit different there.

Chris (39:50):
Oh, yeah. The commercial composting world is is a whole
different beast. So, you know,that that is when you do put the
whole chicken in there, and thenit's gone after a week. So well,
the the other thing, Kent, Ithink, yeah, we said, like, you
when when if you're an activecomposter, and and I suppose if

(40:10):
you're the passive composter,you've just listened to us. I
and you probably just tuned usout this whole time thinking,
man, that's a lot of work.
Meanwhile, for the activecomposter, yeah, when that pile
stops heating up, even whenyou're turning it, even when
you're managing air and water,and and it's not heating up
anymore, that means thatbacteria that that that's really

(40:31):
been firing up no longer hasenough food for it to to go. And
so that's when that fungi beginto colonize it, begin to break
it down even more. But that'ssort of that, dare I say,
finished compost. Then when youyou you would take that and you
would spread that compost, andas you as you spread that
compost, then the soil microbesstart acting on it and break it

(40:52):
down even more. And and so yeah.
I when is compost actuallyfinished? I what a mystery. Now
we have to actually get a realperson on here who knows what
they're talking about, somescientist or something. But
yeah. So you you would in termsof applying compost, again, that
that person I visited who wasdoing that batch composting, he

(41:15):
had experimented with all thesedevices for sifting out material
that maybe didn't make it onthat first pass of composting.
So there's a lot of differenttypes of sifting equipment that
you can use. One was he, like,rolled it. He, roll it on the
ground. You fill thiscylindrical mesh cage with your

(41:38):
compost and you roll it and thesmall stuff falls out, the big
stuff stays in. You could dosomething simple as like a
hardware cloth on like a two byfour frame and just sort of pass
it through whatever size meshthat that cloth is.
And then there's even these,like, vibrating tables, and this

(41:59):
is more commercial, but youwould load it on like a a
conveyor belt and the tablewould vibrate and it would
separate the particle sizes andand weights. And then he would
take anything that didn't quiteget all the way composted down
and throw that back into anothercompost bin to go another round
and that was then left behindwith a more fine textured

(42:21):
material or a smaller materialin terms of the the particle
size that could go in like aspreader that you could just
take and fling out on theground. But I I would say, you
know, there's different ways touse your compost in terms of how
you apply them in your yourlandscape. For the most part, I

(42:44):
think we're gonna be just topdressing. If you do have a
vegetable garden and you wannawork it in to the soil, you
could do that.
But if we're working it into thesoil, that is again another
reason why I wanna make surethat it has at least gone
through that that that initialcomposting, you know, that's
that it's a finished compost sothat it doesn't tie up all those

(43:07):
nutrients as it continuesdecomposing in the soil. So

Ken (43:13):
but

Chris (43:13):
I think you could do that in the vegetable garden. You can
top dress it or you can till itin. For the most part, I think
our, like, landscape beds,flower beds, perennials, you
don't wanna dig that stuff inbecause you you don't wanna dig
in the root system. So it'susually just top dressing on our
landscape beds or on our lawns.If you do this on a lawn, you

(43:36):
wanna make sure you take a rakeor something that you don't mat
down the grass blades and thatyou sort of get it down to the
soil line, to the soil level.
It's not piled up high againstthe grass blades. I don't know
how common this is, but I haveheard where folks have put
compost on their lawn, and itwas, you know, maybe too too

(44:00):
tall. They didn't sift it downtowards the soil, and the sun
came out. And because compost isdark, it heat it got really
warm, and it kind of baked thethe grass blades there. So I've
only heard that happen on oneoccasion.
I don't know how common that is,but something to to be mindful
of. But then what I use mycompost for mostly is for my

(44:21):
containers. I just mix it intothe potting soil. And so that's
that's what I that's what Iprimarily do when I throw
compost into the mix.

Ken (44:31):
Put it in your raised beds.

Chris (44:34):
Yes. Callback to last week's show.

Ken (44:37):
And another thing while I'm thinking of it, this is gonna be
a nightmare. It's probably gonnahave to cut this in somewhere
else, but the moisture levels.Oh, yeah. So you need to keep it
moist. Never actually said.
So

Chris (44:50):
How moist, Ken? How how? Tell us. What's the consistency?

Ken (44:55):
So usually, the, for your your pilots, kinda think of,
like, a a rung out sponge, kindadamp. If you were to take a
handful of it, squeeze it, thereshouldn't be any liquid come out
of it. If it is, it's too wet.So, you know, kind of that rung
out sponge is kind of the wayyou're shooting for that
moisture level.

Chris (45:16):
Get that in somewhere or just leave it here because this
has been a a wandering episode.Stream of consciousness. This
has. There is anotherapplication method that we'll
mention, but I don't think we'regonna necessarily dive into it
because, yeah, I just don'twanna deal with it. Compost tea,

(45:41):
there there is definitelyresearch that is ongoing about
the use of compost tea.
Just doing some of the readingon it. There's two types.
There's aerated compost tea, andthere's, like, non aerated or
steeped compost tea. Aerated iswhere you get, like, an air
pump, air stone. You put compostin, like, some kind of a mesh

(46:07):
bag, like a sock.
You add other ingredients. Themost popular one I've seen was
molasses, and you aerate thatfor a certain amount of time to
activate the microbes in thatand to create a liquid leachate
or a liquid feed for plantmaterial. The other type of

(46:32):
compost tea is you cut out theair stone and all the extra
ingredients. Literally are juststeeping like a a a mesh bag of
compost in a bucket of water.And so those those are the kind
of the two types that I saw outthere.
The the there's research onthese, and what it primarily

(46:56):
says is that compost tea hastypically no effect on whatever
research project they're they'relooking at. You know, if we
think of this whole compost tearesearch on, like, a teeter
totter or I call them teetertotters. What's the other word

(47:17):
for them? Not balance beam.Seesaw.
Seesaw. Yeah. I like seesawbetter. If you think about all
this on a seesaw, no effect iskind of in the middle, doesn't
really tip the scales eitherway. Positive effect on one side
of plants, negative effect.
I mean, it's really just the thescales are not really like in

(47:40):
tipping any which way. It'sreally a lot of the research is
saying no effect, no effect, noeffect. There are some studies
where they say, oh, this doesseem to reduce maybe disease
pressures, like disease presenceon some of these greenhouse
studies that they've done. Iknow I I saw one where they used
compost tea spray on tomatogreenhouse tomatoes, and they

(48:03):
saw a reduction in bacterialleaf spot, I think it was, Some
type of some type of leaf spotdisease on tomato plants. They
saw a reduction in that with thecompost tea treatment.
And also maybe sometimes like aa soil irrigation using compost
tea. But they also saw way moreno effects and, you know, a a

(48:27):
handful of negatives. So I Ithink what we could maybe say
about that is if you putsomething in water and you
regularly irrigate your plants,it's probably good for them and
you'll have you you willinitiate some type of effect,
positive or negative or nothing.But eventually, you will measure
something. Like, if yeah, youjust keep doing the study over

(48:48):
and over again, yeah,eventually, yeah, you'll measure
something.
But if we look at the broadspectrum of studies, it is no
effect.

Ken (48:56):
Alright. His email's down below.

Chris (48:58):
Yeah. Send me emails. I

Ken (49:03):
oh, boy. So I I think, you know, one thing when when people
are using compost, a lot of it'sthey kinda equate it to
fertilizer. Mhmm. And that'ssort of the case. So there's
mean, compost is gonna have somenutrients, but it's a really low
analysis.
Think heard a lot times, like,two two two Mhmm. Five five five

(49:24):
something like that. So it's nota very there's gonna be
nutrients in it, but it's notgonna be the same as putting,
like, a a synthetic fertilizerdown there. Even some of the
organic sources are gonna be alittle higher analysis than than
compost. So it so it can providesome it's gonna provide some
nutrients, but it's not gonna bea you know, if you're really

(49:44):
deficient in something, compostmay not be the the whole
solution to that.
It can help, but it it may notyou may have to add some other
stuff, to that as well. But andand you mentioned, you know,
putting it on there, the themicrobes in the soil, will feed
on us. So you're kind of that'sgonna help feed that soil

(50:04):
microbiome, which is gonna be ahealthy microbiome in the soil.
It's gonna be good for yourplants. So it may not be, you
know, providing a lot ofnutrients directly to the
plants, but those microbes asthey break it down will release
stuff and and you're feedingthat.
So it's still good. So youyou're gonna have that benefit
as opposed to, like, your yoursynthetics where you just, you
know, put that on there. You'renot building the soil, but

(50:27):
you're getting that that thatboost in nutrition.

Chris (50:29):
And and I don't think I would be out of line saying that
most gardeners do not do soiltests. Like, we do

Ken (50:35):
not

Chris (50:35):
know the nutrient rates of our soils, whether we have
too much, too little, justright. But that is a suggestion
that you'll hear coming from usa lot. And especially when we
had our conversation with ZachGrant about contaminated soils,

(50:57):
because Zach Grant, he's a CookCounty extension educator, he
does a lot of work with, like,urban farming. They use a lot of
compost in those systems, and hestarted looking at some of this
research happening, showing alot of pollution coming off of
these gardens with all of thisexcess compost being used. And I

(51:17):
think this is just another pointmaybe as we we wrap things up to
remind folks soil tests can behelpful to know that if you even
need to add some of these thesenutrient components.
Phosphorus being the main onethat I'm thinking about because
phosphorus tends to be the onethat builds up in our soils as
it binds the soil particles. Itdoesn't move as readily unless

(51:40):
there's, like, erosionhappening. So phosphorus can
build up to sometimes, like,toxic or up unhealthy levels for
plants. And some of our compost,like manures, can have high
levels of phosphorus in it, andand depending on what
ingredients you would put inyour compost pile. So you can
get your compost tested.

(52:01):
You can get it analyzed by asoil lab. You can send in a
sample, they'll tell you whatthe nutrient analysis is. I
mean, it doesn't cost a terribleamount, $15 for the test
usually, $15.20 dollars for thetest. You know, we're maybe
looking another $10 in shipping.And so it it is valuable to know

(52:24):
so that you're not puttingsomething into your soil on your
soil that that might becontributing to a pollution
problem because, while I don'tthink Ken and I we're not
responsible for the hypoxic zonein the Gulf Of Mexico, but get
10,000 of us.

(52:44):
And, yeah, we're we're now we'recontributors. And, you know,
visual like a like a like a likeyeah. So soil testing can be
useful and important. You cananalyze your compost if you
want.

Ken (52:58):
Yes. I'd say I would say definitely do that, and I'd say
for your average backyardcompost, you're not creating
enough compost where if you'reyou're adding it to your soils,
you're you're probably not gonnaget to the like, they're seeing
some places in Cook County wherethey're constantly adding large
amounts of it. Yeah. You're justgetting inches. Yeah.

(53:20):
If you're just getting the loadonce a year, couple times a
year, sprinkle them, you know,half an inch on your soil. I
wouldn't be too concerned. Butthere is that there is that
potential if you're adding alot. Yeah.

Chris (53:34):
Yeah. I think Zach was seeing, like, entire just beds
being just formed of compost.That I mean, that's five to 10
inches worth of compost. Yeah.And and remember, everything in
moderation in life, and thatapplies to gardening.
So too much of a good thingstarts to be a bad thing.

Ken (53:57):
So plants, you can never have too many plants.

Chris (53:59):
I know. That is that has been a problem. So if only
plants were cheaper, I couldhave more and more space. More
space start growing on top ofthe house. Well, that was a lot
of great information aboutcomposting, how you can get
started in your own backyardusing compost, and hopefully

(54:21):
doing a little bit of a soiltest too, making sure we're
we're being responsible stewardsof our nutrients that we're
we're adding to to our gardensand landscapes.
Well, the Good Growing podcastis a production of University of
Illinois Extension edited thisweek by me, Chris Enroth. Hey,
Ken. Thanks for hanging out. Andas both I, you, both of us

(54:44):
confess our passive compostinghabit. So thanks.
I'm I'm glad we're kindredspirits and composting.

Ken (54:52):
Yes. Thank you. Maybe I'll, maybe I'll go out and turn it
for the first time this weekend.

Chris (54:56):
Oh, that's so it's so hot though, Ken. That's a lot of
work.

Ken (54:59):
I don't know. I think this weekend's supposed to be cooler.

Chris (55:02):
Okay. Maybe. Alright. Maybe I'll alright. Alright.
I will turn it and then againprobe my wife, see if she'll
like buy me that chippershredder yet.

Ken (55:12):
Alright. Let me know if you need a note.

Chris (55:14):
Alright. I will.

Ken (55:15):
And let's do this again next week.

Chris (55:18):
Oh, we shall do this again next week. It's the Farm
Progress Show. So it's gonna bea garden by week for us. So look
for and if we see you at theFarm Progress Show, hey. Stop by
and say hi at the extension ten.
Well, listeners, thank you fordoing what you best and that is
listening. Or if you watch us onYouTube, watching, and as
always, keep on growing. Well, Iguess we'll go do this thing

(55:55):
called a podcast. Ready, Ken?Ready.

All Episodes

Ep. 221 Compost your way: Passive and active composting styles | #GoodGrowing

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

24/7 News: The Latest

Dateline NBC

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 221 Compost your way: Passive and active composting styles | #GoodGrowing