November 7, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode of Good Growing, horticulture educators Chris Enroth and Ken Johnson dive into the latest updates to the Illinois Exotic Weed Act, which now includes nine newly listed invasive plant species. From the notorious Tree of Heaven to the sneaky Sericea Lespedeza. Plus, a tree many people have been waiting to be added to the list - Callery pear!
Skip to what you want to know:
00:30 Hey Ken! Are we done gardening yet? What we're doing with all our ginger.
03:03 News from the Illinois Department of Natural Resources on 9 new invasive plant species
04:36 Tree of Heaven
08:11 Garlic mustard
10:23 Leafy spurge
12:58 Sericea lespedeza
16:06 Japanese stiltgrass
18:05 Amur corktree
20:01 Black and pale swallow-wort
22:22 Callery Pear
27:54 What does this mean to be listed as an invasive species?
37:37 What is a native plant?
39:59 Do other countries deal with invasive species?
42:37 Thanks yous and coming up next week!
Illinois Extension Press Release: Nine new invasive species regulated in Illinois with expansion of Exotic Weeds Act https://extension.illinois.edu/news-releases/nine-new-invasive-species-regulated-illinois-expansion-exotic-weeds-act
USDA Plant Guide: Leafy Spurge https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/plantmaterials/idpmcpg12069.pdf
Illinois Regulations Regarding Invasive Plant Species https://extension.illinois.edu/invasives/regulations
Contact us!
Chris Enroth: cenroth@illinois.edu
Ken Johnson: kjohnso@illinois.edu
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris (00:05):
Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris
Enroth, horticulture educatorwith the University of Illinois
Extension, coming at you fromMacomb, Illinois, and we have
got a great show for you today,invasive species. Well, it's
fall, which means it's timemaybe to be doing some
treatments of some invasivespecies, and we have new ones to
add to the list. But you knowI'm not doing this by myself. I
(00:27):
am joined as always every singleweek by horticulture educator
Ken Johnson in Jacksonville.
Hey, Ken.
Ken (00:33):
Hello, Chris. You've got some some nice warm weather, at
least today. I think the rest ofthe week, so good time to get
out there and do somemanagement.
Chris (00:43):
That's that's true. You'll be wearing you'll be
sweating doing management todayafter dealing with some at least
in my neck of the woods, wefinally hit that frost point.
And so my my peppers are atleast no more. My tomatoes,
oddly enough, still hanging on.I don't think they're gonna do
(01:03):
anything more, but they'rethey're still there, still
enjoying this warm weather thatwe're getting right now.
How about yourself?
Ken (01:11):
Well, I I never checked. We were supposed to get down to the
upper twenties. So we went outand harvested all the tomatoes
and peppers on the plants andeverything still looks good.
Beans, they've lost a lot oftheir flowers, at the tips,
they're still green, stillputting out flowers. The
blackberry we have still hasfruit on it, is still putting
out flowers.
(01:33):
It's never gonna end.
Chris (01:35):
Never ending growing season, I guess. Yeah. Not not
the worst problem in the world,but winter can can arrive
anytime for us.
Ken (01:46):
Yeah. We got everything picked, so there's there's
really nothing to save anymore.So Yeah. And the and the ginger
we've got, we've got the plasticon there. I walked out there,
went out there at lunch today,and it was uncomfortably warm in
that tunnel.
Chris (02:01):
Yeah. Our our ginger is all picked and harvested. I have
gave it all out as Halloweencandy this year. You know? So
but, actually, I still have one,two, three I have four flats
worth in my basement still liveplants that will be grown out
for next year's crop.
(02:22):
And then I'm gonna use theremainder. I think I have, like,
couple pounds worth of gingerrhizomes that I'm gonna process.
I'm gonna try making, like, acouple different things. We're
gonna we're gonna freeze some.We're going to maybe try that
candied recipe that you use, andthen we're gonna powder some.
So we're gonna do a coupledifferent things with our ginger
(02:43):
this
Ken (02:44):
year. Make some ginger ale.
Chris (02:47):
That's that's that would be very nice. I would love
having some homemade ginger ale.
Ken (02:53):
We tried it one year. It didn't work very well.
Chris (02:56):
No. No. Okay.
Ken (02:57):
That's that's probably more more operator here than
anything, but.
Chris (03:01):
Just add more sugar. That's what makes it all good.
Well, Ken, we are today reactingto some news put out by the
Illinois Department of NaturalResources, and that is they have
added a couple. By a couple,mean, like, what, eight eight or
nine new plants to the invasivespecies list, which has a more
(03:24):
formal official name, the ExoticWeeds Act. So if you would get
on to the Internets and type itin, you'd probably wanna type in
the Illinois Exotic Weeds Act,to get a more the the official
formal, language of this.
But, we'll leave a link below tothe press release that came out
of these new species being addedto this list. Now they're not
(03:47):
all new to me. I don't know,Ken, or or any of these new to
you, some of these species thatwe're seeing?
Ken (03:56):
I've heard of all of them except for two.
Chris (04:01):
Mhmm.
Ken (04:03):
But familiar with probably only three of them, four of
them. Others I've heard of, butI've never seen them in person.
We'll put it that way.
Chris (04:14):
Some of these new species, I mean, let's let's
dive right into what what iseffective right now. And of the
list that they gave, all butone, this rule goes into effect
right now. So the ones that areimmediately considered invasive
species of Illinois or exoticweeds, we'll say that, The first
(04:37):
one is tree of heaven. Now Iknow, Ken, you're probably
familiar with that, especiallywith our conversation about the,
spotted lanternfly we had, lastmonth.
Ken (04:50):
Yeah. That's one you know, you've heard of it, but yet now
with spotted lanternfly gettingmore attention. You hear about
that a lot more often. So thisis one, was originally grown as
an ornamental. Like a lot ofplants, a lot of our invasive
species are brought inintentionally, whether it be
ornamental, soil stabilization,what have you, and then escape
(05:12):
and cause far more problems thanthey're worth.
So tree of heaven is one thatit's kind of a trash tree. You
find it all over the place,like, growing in sidewalk cracks
and alleys and you name it. Itcan grow. It can grow there. So
one of the reasons why a lot ofthese things are invasive or
exotic or whatever you wannacall them As they do very well
(05:33):
in lot of times less than idealconditions, they can take over
rather easily.
So yeah.
Chris (05:42):
Well, I every morning, at least last year, when I dropped
my kid off at school, there wasa house that had a tree of
heaven in the front yard. And II'm not sure what prompted them
to do it, but they cut it down,which I I can only imagine must
have smelled terrible if youwere the arborist cutting that
tree down because tree of heavenis known to have a very foul
(06:03):
scent. I do have some popping upin my backyard. And if you are
ever curious, because it has acompound leaf, and I have a lot
of black walnut, which also hasa compound leaf. And if you're
ever curious, they both havevery distinct and dissimilar
smells from each other.
Black walnut, I find it a verypungent but pleasant odor for
(06:25):
black walnut. Tree of heaven,no. Not it's not does not smell
good. I can't imagine what itsmells like if you're running
that thing through a chippershredder. Must not smell good at
all.
But the interesting thing isafter they cut the tree down,
they they ground the stump out,And then it just the whole lawn
(06:46):
today is just it's like a lawnof tree of heaven. Mhmm. And so
without the use of herbicide,basically, what they have to do
is sort of just mow, mow, mowuntil that root system exhausts
itself. Unfortunately, thesprouts are also showing up
(07:06):
across the sidewalk in a fenceline. And and so you can just
see how this one sole singulartree has now been cut down and
turned into this absolute beastand is going to pretty much
colonize this fence line unlesssomeone does something about it.
And maybe we'll get into thislater. We talk about what this
(07:27):
means for for these plants. But,yeah, we'll just leave it at
that.
Ken (07:33):
Yeah. I'll say until I really started paying attention,
we've got a walnut. Neighbors oneither side of us have walnut
trees and I just thought we hadwalnut seedlings popping up
everywhere. Until one day I andI just pull them, till one day I
smelled it and I like, wait asecond. This is not walnut.
That's not
Chris (07:50):
a walnut. This is awful. Yeah.
Ken (07:54):
It's almost kinda like cat pee.
Chris (07:57):
Mhmm. Musky cat pee that's been sitting in a
nineteen seventies carp shagcarpet.
Ken (08:05):
In 90 degree weather.
Chris (08:06):
90 degree weather. Yeah. Yeah. That's the best way to
describe it. Another one, whichI think we're all familiar with.
In fact, we have our our bookthat I use this all the time,
the management of invasiveplants in pests of Illinois.
Ken's got it too right next tohim. Even though when this was
written, officially, legallyspeaking, these plants were not
(08:29):
invasive. But look what's on thecover here. This is garlic
mustard.
It is now legally saying this isan invasive species in Illinois,
but we've we've known it wasgonna it it should have been for
many years because it we've hadit on the cover of our book for
years. Garlic mustard. Yeah. Thethis one showed up because true
(08:50):
to its name, you can eat it. Ittastes kinda garlic, kinda
mustardy flavor.
You can turn it into a kind of atasty pesto, but it's a
biennial. And so it reallystarts out a little hidden down
by the soil level, this littlerosette growing at the soil
plane. And then the next year,it shoots up that that
(09:12):
vegetative or reproductiveleaves and the leaf or the
reproductive stalk flowers andthen boom, seeds. And so yeah,
garlic mustard been around for awhile, now finally deemed
legally invasive in Illinois.
Ken (09:26):
Yeah. This is one that was, yeah, purposely introduced as a
pot herb. So people growing intheir gardens to use and it's
gotten away from us. Find it inusually like forest areas. Yeah.
Forest areas. Mhmm. And it whatexudes chemicals that inhibits
(09:47):
the growth of other plants, youget these large monocultures of
it.
Chris (09:53):
Yeah. We we used to do garlic mustard pulls, but then I
think there was more researchthat came out in later on from
there that suggested that maybethis this plant might just sort
of self implode on itself overtime, that it might just spread
spread spread, and then it mightjust sort of just maybe just
kind of vanish into thebackground. So we don't really
do much garlic mustard pullsanymore. At least not very
(10:18):
frequently. I still pull it whenI come across it though.
Ken (10:22):
So then the next one on the list is leafy spurge. I don't
know if I'd heard of this one. Imean, I've heard of spurges
before, maybe not this onespecifically. But this one,
pastures, grassland areas,roadsides, things like that is
where it can cause some issues.Mhmm.
(10:46):
So This is the one yes. Yes. Soaccording to there's a USDA NRCS
land guide for this. Katelynhorses avoid leafy spurge. The
milky sap, which containsingenol, toxic compound can
cause severe diarrhea andweakness in katelyn horses
(11:07):
forced to consume it, It cancause blistering and hair loss
around horses' hooves.
Can be irritating to the skin,eyes, and digestive tracts of
humans and other animals. Sheepand goats tend to be less
bothered by it.
Chris (11:19):
Yeah. Mean, goats can eat practically anything it seems
like, but I I have definitelyseen this one probably out in
pastures. I feel like I've evenseen it in the like, in a garden
center or something. It doeshave these, like, yellow, pretty
like cup shaped flowers, a bowlshaped flowers. And they're I
(11:41):
think they can be prettypersistent.
I know that when they set seed,that seed can last for quite a
bit of time in the soil. And soit would be I think with all of
these, it's pretty much a longterm battle that you're facing
with them, but but leafy spurgecan really show up years after
you think you might have gottenit eradicated. So interestingly,
(12:04):
in in this book, it says thatthe US Department of Agriculture
has shown success using sixnatural enemies of leafy spurge
imported from Europe. Theseinclude a stem and root boring
beetle, four root mining fleabeetles, and a shoot tip gall
midge in controlling this. So Iguess we've already deployed
some biologicals against thisparticular plant.
(12:27):
And looks like looks likethey're gonna do large scale
field rearing and releaseprograms in all the in many
northern states.
Ken (12:37):
Yeah. And pointing it out with like, oh, these natural
enemies, biological control.Probably, we're not going to
wipe it out, but it will helpslow the spread. Maybe reduce
those by place. Kind of samething with Everest Lash part.
They've released parasitoids andstuff like that. We're not
eliminating it, but hopefullyslowing the spread a little bit.
Chris (12:58):
Alright. Well, this next one on the list is one that I
have seen and I'm seeing morefrequently, and that is Serrisia
lespedeza. This is one that Iknow has especially is in the
counties to the south of me,like in Ken's County, and it has
been creeping northward. It'sbeen found where I am in in
(13:19):
Southern McDonough County, andit is a big problem for people
with CRP, Conservation Reserve,program, where people set aside
ag land, to conserve that soilfor future use. And what we
would wanna see are more nativegrasses and wildflowers, but
(13:40):
what has been happening morewith the sericea lespedeza is
that this just shows up.
And of all the things we use tomanage our our prairies
essentially, which which what wewanna see on a lot of CRP or
sometimes timber, is we usefire. And fire actually promotes
the growth of Serraceaelespedecia. And it it it has
(14:03):
become a very troublesome weed.A lot of biologists are are very
concerned about it. They're notquite sure, you know, in what
direction we need to go on sucha large scale that they're
dealing with this particularplant.
However, I think right now whatmost of the recommendations, how
they go is basically use fire topromote the plant, and then
(14:24):
after you get a flush of growthof sericea, you then hit it with
an herbicide to try to kill it.And so it's sort of like make it
real happy with fire and thentry to kill it with herbicide.
Ken (14:37):
I don't remember how many years ago now. So I went out to
a field visit and someone Ididn't know what it was. So I
sent up pictures and I thinkthere's multiple problematic
problematic weeds in this theilea. Sriricea lespedeza was one
of them here. And more of thisplace in Morgan County.
So Yeah. We do have it here.
Chris (15:00):
Well and I was visiting with the farmer about two months
ago, and we're out in his back40 there in some of the CRP
area. And he said sericea isjust one of those. It is a very
fine textured plant where itsort of hides in the prairie.
You don't see it until it reallyjust begins to to explode into
this this group, you know, thismass. And then, Ken, I think you
(15:24):
and I, we were in Springfield inSeptember, and we were at the a
park.
And this particular park had aprairie area, and the whole
prairie was essentially sericealespedeza. And they were
basically starting over fromscratch with that.
Ken (15:43):
Yeah. Yeah. That was everywhere.
Chris (15:45):
Trying to think if I have a picture I can throw in. I
don't know if I do, but but I'llsee if I can find track one down
for you.
Ken (15:51):
Yeah. I don't think I do. I'm taking a picture that I
should have.
Chris (15:55):
It's just my my mouth dropped open like,
Ken (15:57):
wow. It's usually what I take pictures of. That's the
problem. It's not the goodstuff.
Chris (16:03):
I know. Yeah.
Ken (16:06):
Alright. Our next new exotic weed here in Illinois is
Japanese stiltgrass. So this oneis a an annual grass that is
named Asia. So this one Iactually found out was first
reported in 1919, introduced aspacking material for imported
porcelain from China. Firstdocumented in Tennessee.
(16:28):
It has now spread throughoutgood chunk of the Eastern United
States. And with this one, youknow, it kind of looks almost
bamboo ish. We've got thebroader, wider leaves and stuff
at least when I look at it. Ithink it it looks like bamboo to
me anyway. And this one, plantscan produce thousand seeds every
(16:55):
year, so very prolific seedproducer.
They're they're smaller seeds sothey move rather easily in the
environment. That's on, youknow, somebody walking through,
pick them up on them, animals,floating on water, vehicles,
what have you. And they canremain viable up to five years
in the soil, so they can stickaround for a decent amount of
(17:18):
time too. So, and then you cansay find, you know, pictures out
there where you, where they dieback and it's just the ground is
matted when you have this real,real high concentrations and
kind of chokes, potentiallychokes out other stuff because
of that. Because other one,know, smaller populations you
(17:38):
can hand pull or basically justsince it's an annual trying to
prevent seed formation on.
Chris (17:46):
I've I've definitely seen stilt grass before. I probably
might might even have it in theditch or something when growing
near the house. But but, yeah, Ihave not not had to deal with it
personally in terms of control,but I know I've been seeing it
around more. Well, the nextplant on the list is the amaur
(18:08):
cork tree, and this is aninteresting one. It looks a lot
like tree of heaven, I think.
The bark looks like it. But thebranching is different. So if
you're looking at this, youknow, the the bark looks similar
to to tree of heaven, at leastyoung trees do. And then but the
the tree of heaven, it has a analternate bud or branching
(18:33):
habit, whereas the amber corktree has opposite leaves. And
and also the the leaves of ambercroak tree, I think they look
more like a like a bushhoneysuckle leaf where they have
that acuminator, sort of thatpinched tip of the leaves.
And and then, of course, I I didthe odor. You know? When in
(18:56):
doubt, scratch the tree andsniff it if it smells, as we
described it before, cat pee ina 1970 shy carpet that's been
sitting there for months.Probably dealing with tree
heaven. But it it came over toThe US in 1850, more than likely
ornamental tree.
It's also a functional tree. Soif you peel off the barks, it
actually has this bright yellowtissue beneath it and is used
(19:19):
for for dyes, like a naturaldye. The as the tree gets older,
the bark on it will develop intothis more spongy cork like
texture. And and it and so,yeah, it's just it has been here
for a while. And but I think yousee a lot more out in the
Northeast and and other areaslike that.
(19:41):
But it it you can find it herein Illinois, most definitely.
Ken (19:44):
Yeah. This is one I've those I've heard of, but I don't
know. I'm not knowingly. See, Imay have seen it, but
Chris (19:50):
I just
Ken (19:50):
didn't know what I was looking at.
Chris (19:52):
The the problem is once you figure it out, once you See
it everywhere. Yeah. You you'llsee it everywhere.
Ken (19:59):
Alright. And then our last two, these are two I was not I'm
not familiar with.
Chris (20:04):
Yeah.
Ken (20:04):
Me neither. Not sure I'd heard of them before this
release came out. And this isblack and pale swallowwort. So
just doing a little lookingbefore we started recording
here. So this is from Universityof Minnesota talking about pale
swallowwort.
Non native plant that has beenfound in Minnesota, also in
(20:24):
Illinois. It is an herbaceousperennial vining milkweed
originating from SouthernEurope. These are believed to be
fatal to monarch caterpillars,which mistake them for native
milkweeds. So vining plant,vines can get six feet long,
think it's the same for blackswallowwort as well. So they're
basically, they're kind ofchoking out other stuff.
(20:49):
Mechanical control, easilybreaks when hand pulled, roots
can be dug out and disposed of.But you need to continue
monitoring, can re root fromthose seed, those chunks up in
the soil. Mowing is notrecommended as it likely spreads
the seeds. The seeds have arekind of like milkweed seeds.
They've got the fluff on themthough.
They'll float away and stuffairborne. And then herbicide
(21:14):
like these others, you know, theglyphosate Triclopyr, something
like that while plants are inflowering. Or they can be due to
the cut cut and apply to thestem. And what was it? Another
one for another name for blackswallow word is dog strangle
vine.
So that gives you an indicationof maybe what their growth habit
(21:37):
is like, and mining and andchoking stuff out.
Chris (21:41):
Yeah. I it is basically a plant. Any plant part can
resprout and form a new plant.So, yeah, just if you do have
this one to control, you prettymuch just need to get it out.
Don't compost it.
Don't do anything. It's gotta beburned or sent to the landfill.
Ken (21:58):
And this is one. It was first cultivated in greenhouses
in the mid eighteen hundreds inIpswich at the Harvard Botanic
Garden in Essex County,Massachusetts. Then in 1864,
plant collector in Essex County,Massachusetts, recorded as,
quote, escaping from the botanicgarden where it is a weed and
promising to become naturalized.And Yes. Sure enough.
(22:22):
Rather successfully.
Chris (22:25):
Well, that's unfortunate. But yes, I mean, all of these
plants because of their nature,makes them invasive in in our
natural areas. Now everythingwe've just listed, the this rule
takes into effect right now. Assoon as it was red, boom, these
plants are considered invasive.But there is one that this does
(22:47):
not take effect until01/01/2028.
Ken, drum roll, please. What isthat plant? That
Ken (22:57):
is good old good old calorie or sometimes called
Bradford pear, which is a statecultivar, of calorie pear. Think
we should say for we'll get alittle more into this, and a
little bit about the definition.So with the Exotic Weed Act, for
this, it is illegal for anyoneto buy, sell, distribute, or
plant any of these listedspecies without a permit. So you
(23:21):
cannot buy them, sell, trade,plant, whatever, you don't have
to manage them. That's animportant distinction there.
You can't so just because youhave calorie repair doesn't mean
you have to cut it down. I'dargue you should, but legally,
you do not have to. And until01/01/2028, you can still buy it
in Illinois. Again, I wouldencourage you to reconsider
(23:43):
that. Don't go out and buy asmany as you can because you
can't buy them anymore.
Resist that temptation and don'tdon't do that. And I think the
reasoning is that it's becausethere's, you know, there's a lot
of nursery stock around. So it'sbeen delayed for a couple of
years.
Chris (24:02):
Yeah. I I wonder if I'm gonna see a lot of calorie pair
with for sale signs on this,Steve. Highly discounted
material. Yeah. Fire shot.
There you go. Yeah. Speaking offire, these do get they're in
the Rose family, so they do getdiseases. A lot of the ones
around me have fire blight,which I joyfully just sit back
(24:24):
and watch as these plants justdie from fire blight. Me too.
Yeah. And I'm like, hey. Youknow what? You should prune you
should prune that fire blightout and then don't clean your
pruners and go prune that othercalorie pair over there because
it's a bacteria that can bespread with your with your
pruners. But don't do that,folks, if it's not yours because
(24:45):
you might get in trouble.
Ken (24:47):
Turn the mister on, Nick. Keep it nice and wet.
Chris (24:50):
There you go. Yes. Yeah. You know, fingers crossed for a
hailstorm because hail damageactually will spread fire blight
throughout the entire canopy. Socool because hail creates a
wound, bacteria can enter thewound, boom.
There you go.
Ken (25:06):
So Callipear is another one that was intentionally
introduced. It's been broughtinto US, multiple times. So
originally in 1909, ArnoldArboretum in Harvard, again
Harvard causing problems again.Don't come after me Harvard.
They, in 1916 USGA, brought inhopes of developing firebite
(25:28):
resistance to our common bear,the bear we eat.
So, the cauliflower pears usedas rootstock for those edible
pears. But then in the 1950s,kind of gained interest as an
ornamental value, know, as we'rebuilding, building more kind of
that postwar housing and theseare quick growing trees, have
(25:49):
pretty flowers, if you ignorethe smell and stuff. The kind of
the original cultivar wasBradford and these are not so
fruitful, they don't, they'renot producing fruit. But then as
we start introducing more andmore cultivars and stuff, they
can cross pollinate, we startgetting viable fruits, and then
(26:11):
these really start kind ofescaping cultivation. Think what
was it by the 1980s, it was thesecond most popular tree in The
US.
A lot of places need new housingdevelopment. Every tree, every
house has got a Bradford orCallery Pear planted in it.
Chris (26:27):
I'd I'd say in 2010 when I was doing landscaping, yeah,
we still were playing playingthem everywhere out in Kansas.
So I I gotta cut down a lot ofCallery pears to make up for
that that sin there, my penance.So I I do find calorie pear
growing randomly in my landscapebeds. And at first, was like,
(26:49):
what is this? Is this a cherry?
I'm not sure. It's smoothbarked. But now the more
familiar I've become with seeingthis plant, then I realize, oh,
just another calorie pearseedling sprouting in my
landscape bed. So it is one ofthose that I think it takes you
by surprise once you you likesee it and it sort of just jumps
out at you like, woah, that's Ihad no idea it would have
(27:11):
traveled this deep into thewoods. But sure enough, does.
And then you start lookingaround you and and you start
seeing it more and morefrequently.
Ken (27:19):
Yeah. Especially in the spring, if you're driving along
interstate, especially we usedget around for me, we get around
driving down the St. Louis areafrom Jackson on one fifty five.
You know, the whole side of theinterstate and area is white,
and that's canopyr blooming. Andit also hold onto its leaves
longer than a lot of our nativespecies.
(27:40):
So if we've got trees, you know,as as our our native species
start dropping leaves, CalleryPear sometimes kind of stick out
too because it's holding thoseleaves a little bit longer
sometimes.
Chris (27:54):
And so we we you had described this, Ken, as, you
know, what does it mean to be inthe Illinois Exotic Weed Act?
Can't sell it, can't buy it,don't plant it. But that's
really it. That's really theonly restriction that you have
in terms of enforcement. It'sreally enforcement of, like, the
nursery trade.
You know, we we don't wanna seethis in for sale anymore. But
(28:18):
otherwise, there's there'snothing else. There is another
list out there. It's called thenoxious weed list. And this I
don't think this necessarilytargets non native plants
because there's other plantslike ragweed on the noxious weed
list.
But that's the noxious weed act.And in this particular list of
(28:42):
plants for Illinois, and I don'tknow if this particular list has
ever been updated for years, Butit's got plants that if found
growing on your property, therewould be a force to say you need
to control this. So, like, exexample, ragweed is one of them.
(29:04):
Ragweed is a native. Ragweed isactually kind of an important
native plant for some of ourground foraging birds.
So wind pollinated. But what itdoes do is it gives us
allergies. You know, a lot ofpeople are allergic to ragweed
because it is a wind pollinatedplant. And so when you're in
like a city or a dense a humanoccupied area, it would make
(29:28):
sense to be able to say, hey,you need to control this
ragweed. A lot of people aresneezing, I guess, right now.
You're making people miserable.There's other ones out there,
though, too, like cannabis. Youknow, they say, hey. You're not
allowed to grow that on yourproperty. It's a noxious it's a
noxious weed, and we have theenforcement ability to tell you
(29:49):
to to get rid of this plant.
Ken (29:51):
Yeah. And I say for the for the ragweed, that's only for
within city limits orincorporated areas. So if you
live out in the country, it isnot it would not be considered
anoxicerative. It's yeah. Sothere's a document, Illinois
regulations regarding invasiveplant species, and we can link
(30:12):
to this.
It kind of gives a, I guess, aregular non lawyer definition of
this. Now I'll just read for thenoxious weed law. This law,
administered by the director ofthe Illinois Department of
Agriculture, gives countygovernments the authority and
responsibility to survey for,control, and govern the
distribution of noxious weedswithin their jurisdiction. The
(30:34):
law also provides an avenue forthe establishment of both a weed
control superintendent and anoxious weed control fund within
each county. Depending on thesituation, new infestations will
be managed by the landowner, bythe county, and billed to the
landowner.
The county and the landownersplit the costs or at the
expense of the county. So youare legally required to manage
(30:58):
these and it's up to theindividual counties to enforce
this. And say enforcement can bespotty
Chris (31:08):
Yeah. In the state. Mostly nonexistent. We we
actually, extension, we do get alot of pushback on this one from
people that say that tell us whyaren't we out there enforcing
this more. So just just FYI, asKen just read, it's the
counties.
We're an educational group. Wewe aren't we aren't out there
(31:31):
turning the tickets out. Yeah. II don't want that job. So
Ken (31:36):
Yeah. But you mentioned you had ragweed so common and giant
ragweed, again, within citylimits, marijuana, musk thistle,
Canada thistle, kudzu, perennialsouth thistle, the perennial
sorghums like Johnson grass. Ithink yes. I think those are it.
(31:57):
So again, those you have to bylaw, you're supposed to manage
those.
Chris (32:02):
Yeah. But for the other list, the exotic weed act, the
invasive species, we're stillgoing to talk about and
encourage homeowners andlandowners to control those even
if there is no necessarilyregulatory requirement for you
to do so. Because the big issuewith invasive species is that it
(32:27):
limits biodiversity in ournatural systems. And we need
biodiversity for resilience inour natural systems. And so,
yes, on this show today and infuture shows, if we talk
invasive species, we're gonnaalso tell you how to kill them.
Ken (32:42):
Get rid of them. Yeah. And there there's also the Illinois
injurious species rule, which isone that rarely ever gets talked
about, at least in myexperience. So again, just
reading from this document. Thislaw administered by the Illinois
Department of Natural Resourcesdoes not only focus on weeds,
but also regulates injuriousanimals.
(33:03):
It is illegal for any species onthis list to be possessed,
propagated, bought, sold,bartered, or offered to be
bought, sold, bartered,transported, traded,
transferred, or loaned to anyother person or institution
unless a permit is firstobtained, except persons engaged
in interstate transport forlawful commercial purposes who
do not buy, sell, barter, tradetransfer loan are offered to do
(33:24):
so, and Illinois may transportinjurious species across
Illinois without injuriousspecies permit from the permit.
It's a really long sentence.
Chris (33:33):
My goodness. What what are your legal fees for that
one, Ken? Oh, my gosh.
Ken (33:38):
And there I mean, there's a lot of plants. I think all the
ones I'm listening on here areplants, though. I'm not gonna
read all of them because there'sa lot of like mosquito fern,
flowering rush, Mediterraneankiller algae. Nice. Probably a
good one to have.
Anchored water, hyacinthhydrilla, Chinese water,
(34:01):
spinach, yellow flag iris,oxygen weed, arrow leaf, parrot
feather, Eurasian watermilfoil.A lot of these are more aquatic
stuff.
Chris (34:11):
Mhmm.
Ken (34:11):
Duck lettuce, curly leaf pond weed, giant sylvania, a
bunch of those differentspecies, water soldier, water
chestnut. So can't can't growthose either.
Chris (34:29):
Well, I guess we need to bring this list up when we talk
ponds the next time. In essence,I guess everyone there's a lot
of lists out there, at least inIllinois. I there's three. And
official list. And and I knowpeople will call certain plants
invasive.
They might say, yeah, Virginiacreeper, that's invasive. No.
(34:52):
It's aggressive in our book, butlegally, to be called invasive,
we have to have it on thisexotic weed list. I think the
the the term that we've come upwith, though, species of
concern, though, can talk aboutsome non natives that haven't
been listed yet, which are stillin our book, but they're they're
(35:15):
they're of concern. And,hopefully, one day, they will be
listed.
And I'm sure some of you are,like, screaming or ready to type
something in like, well, whatabout burning bush? Yeah. It's
in the it's in the book tocontrol. Just is not on the list
yet.
Ken (35:31):
Yeah. And I know when this got posted on social media, you
know, there's a lot of peoplethrowing out, yeah, what about
burning bush? Teasel is one, andI think Teasel is on the exotic
Chris (35:44):
Mhmm.
Ken (35:45):
Species list. So there's there these are the exotic weed
act, those listed plants. Theseare the nine new ones, but there
are others. Tiesole, RussianOlive, Autumn Olive, Buckthorn,
Giant Hogweed. All thehoneysuckle.
Honeysuckle. Now we haveMultiflora Rose, Purple Loose
(36:08):
Strife, and others. So therethere are others. But again, a
lot these are not they're notbeing sold anyway or given away.
There are kind of these sets in,and I think we're both guilty of
it too.
There are kind of these defineddefinitions of what invasive and
(36:30):
things are, but we kind of usethem, some of these terms
interchangeably. So, like,invasive and so 02/03/1999,
executive order one three oneone two signed by President
Clinton, established NationalInvasive Species Council, and
they define invasive species asnon native or alien to the
(36:51):
ecosystem under consideration.And a species whose introduction
causes or is likely to causeeconomic harm, environmental
harm, or harm to human health.So but but kind of by this
definition, to be invasive hasto be non native, introduced
either intentionally orunintentionally, it doesn't
matter how it got here. Andlikely, it does or is likely to
(37:13):
cause environmental or economicharm or harm to humans.
So then you're getting into yournatives. So native plants right
off the bat cannot by definitionbe native because they are, or
can be invasive because they arenative to that area. And even
native, you know, definition,you know, what exactly is the
(37:36):
definition of native? One is,you know, a plant that is part
of the balance of nature and hasdeveloped over hundreds or
thousands of years in aparticular region or ecosystem.
It's evolved in a specificgeographical area.
Usually a lot of times definedas growing wild when scientific
collection began in the area.
Chris (37:54):
Yeah.
Ken (37:55):
So, you know, like you talk about invasive natives, you
know, poison ivy, that's anative plant. Mhmm. But it's not
invasive. So Right. It's justproblematic.
Chris (38:09):
I I do go back and forth with some people over Osage
Orange, which is also known as,like, the hedge apple. And I
think when during Europeansettlement, I don't think it was
necessarily found as far northas Illinois. They believe the
ones that they did find werebrought up from the South by
Native Americans, but there'smore historical evidence beyond
(38:34):
before that to show that OsageOrange was present in, like,
Illinois before the last iceage. And that after the ice age,
we lost a lot of the megafauna,which would be seed dispersers
like the giant sloth, themammoth, all that, and which
then kind of pushed Osage Orangedown south, and it was not able
(38:57):
to really naturally return backto the northern part of the
continent. So I still say is I Istill would call it a native
tree in my neck of the woods.
Ken (39:07):
Native ish. Yeah. I think most maps show it as Texas,
Oklahoma, a little bit ofArkansas
Chris (39:12):
Yeah.
Ken (39:13):
As a native region. And, like, even stuff we you know,
bald cypress, that's likeExtreme Southern Illinois is its
Northern extent naturally, buthumans have spread it further
north. So native to Illinois,but a very small portion at the
Southern Tip of Illinois. Andlike even things like
(39:35):
sunflowers, sunflowers arenative to North America and
indigenous Americans spread themfar and wide, that they're I
think, I believe they're nativeto was it Mexico? And they've
been spread by humans.
Chris (39:49):
Fun with definitions and and and putting living things in
categories and build some ofthose living things don't read
like us humans do. Exactly.Well, Ken, whenever I'm talking
invasive species and and andexasperated people throw up
their hands and say, why do wein The US have to deal with all
these invasive species? Are arewe sending our own native
(40:14):
species out to other continents?And they they seem to be kind of
happy when I say, yes, we are.
The whole planet is dealing withinvasive species. And so, yeah,
they seem to almost take alittle bit of satisfaction in
that. I'm like, well, no. Weshouldn't be happy about that.
(40:34):
We don't want to necessarily bedoing that.
Eastern Negundo, which is boxelder maple, red oak, some of
our or like goldenrod. Oh, it'sa terrible weed across the the
Atlantic and and the othercontinents, Europe and Asia. So
we have a lot of species thathave been that have left the
(40:54):
North American continent and andcrossed over the oceans in
either direction and become hugeproblems in other parts of the
world.
Ken (41:06):
Yeah. It was, I think, Colorado potato beetle in
Europe.
Chris (41:10):
Mhmm. Yeah.
Ken (41:14):
Some army worms and stuff. Mhmm. And other I think African
and other parts of the world. Sowe're sending just as much stuff
we are sending it just as muchelsewhere. We just don't hear
about it because it's notaffecting us.
It's native here. They're notthey can be pests, but they're
not nearly as bad as bad a pestas they would be other places,
(41:36):
just like, you know, Emerald AshBorer. Minor pests, there wasn't
a whole lot of research done onit until it showed up in The US
and Europe when it starts wipingout trees because in its native
range, it's managed by naturalenemies. The the native ash
trees evolved with it. So yeah.
(41:56):
We're
Chris (41:57):
So no reason to look at it. But I think, the the story
goes is that, back during theCold War, The Soviet Union
accused The US of droppingColorado potato beetle onto,
into their country. And, youknow, I I don't know if The US
(42:21):
has confirmed or denied thatclaim, but I I remember that
being a big deal, at least ifyou lived in The Soviet Union
back then, because, you know,potatoes kind of a big deal over
in Russia.
Ken (42:32):
Yeah. So it's a two way street. We just we just don't
hear about it coming from us.
Chris (42:37):
Well, that was a lot of great information about the new
invasive species that have beenadded to the Illinois Exotic
Weed Act. We'll have additionalresources for you in the show
notes down below if you wannalearn more about them and their
controls and the other speciesthat might also be listed on the
Illinois Exotic Weed Act. Well,the Good Growing podcast is a
(42:58):
production of University ofIllinois Extension edited this
week by me, Chris Enroth. Hey,Ken. Thanks for hanging out with
me today and going through thislist of new plants that we can
well, not new.
We've already known about them,but fresh plants added to the
invasive species list that wecan call them invasive
officially now.
Ken (43:17):
Yep. I'm gonna have to go start looking at pictures and
brush up on my ID. Make sure I'mproperly identifying them now.
Chris (43:24):
I don't care if it's a amber cork tree or if it's a
tree of heaven. If it's got barklike that, just kill it. I'm
glad they added them both at thesame time.
Ken (43:35):
Let's do this again next week.
Chris (43:38):
Oh, we shall do this again next week. The
horticultural hijinks continues.The Good Growing podcast, so
we'll see what happens. It'sgetting to be turkey month now.
So I'm gonna get out thesweaters, bust out the soup.
I don't know what to say at theend anymore. Well, listeners,
(44:01):
thank you for doing what you dobest, and that is listening. Or
if you watched us on YouTubewatching, and as always, keep on
growing.
Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris
Enroth, horticulture educatorwith the University of Illinois
Extension, coming at you fromMacomb, Illinois, and we have
got a great show for you today,invasive species. Well, it's
fall, which means it's timemaybe to be doing some
treatments of some invasivespecies, and we have new ones to
add to the list. But you knowI'm not doing this by myself. I
(00:27):
am joined as always every singleweek by horticulture educator
Ken Johnson in Jacksonville.
Hey, Ken.
Ken (00:33):
Hello, Chris. You've got some some nice warm weather, at
least today. I think the rest ofthe week, so good time to get
out there and do somemanagement.
Chris (00:43):
That's that's true. You'll be wearing you'll be
sweating doing management todayafter dealing with some at least
in my neck of the woods, wefinally hit that frost point.
And so my my peppers are atleast no more. My tomatoes,
oddly enough, still hanging on.I don't think they're gonna do
(01:03):
anything more, but they'rethey're still there, still
enjoying this warm weather thatwe're getting right now.
How about yourself?
Ken (01:11):
Well, I I never checked. We were supposed to get down to the
upper twenties. So we went outand harvested all the tomatoes
and peppers on the plants andeverything still looks good.
Beans, they've lost a lot oftheir flowers, at the tips,
they're still green, stillputting out flowers. The
blackberry we have still hasfruit on it, is still putting
out flowers.
(01:33):
It's never gonna end.
Chris (01:35):
Never ending growing season, I guess. Yeah. Not not
the worst problem in the world,but winter can can arrive
anytime for us.
Ken (01:46):
Yeah. We got everything picked, so there's there's
really nothing to save anymore.So Yeah. And the and the ginger
we've got, we've got the plasticon there. I walked out there,
went out there at lunch today,and it was uncomfortably warm in
that tunnel.
Chris (02:01):
Yeah. Our our ginger is all picked and harvested. I have
gave it all out as Halloweencandy this year. You know? So
but, actually, I still have one,two, three I have four flats
worth in my basement still liveplants that will be grown out
for next year's crop.
(02:22):
And then I'm gonna use theremainder. I think I have, like,
couple pounds worth of gingerrhizomes that I'm gonna process.
I'm gonna try making, like, acouple different things. We're
gonna we're gonna freeze some.We're going to maybe try that
candied recipe that you use, andthen we're gonna powder some.
So we're gonna do a coupledifferent things with our ginger
(02:43):
this
Ken (02:44):
year. Make some ginger ale.
Chris (02:47):
That's that's that would be very nice. I would love
having some homemade ginger ale.
Ken (02:53):
We tried it one year. It didn't work very well.
Chris (02:56):
No. No. Okay.
Ken (02:57):
That's that's probably more more operator here than
anything, but.
Chris (03:01):
Just add more sugar. That's what makes it all good.
Well, Ken, we are today reactingto some news put out by the
Illinois Department of NaturalResources, and that is they have
added a couple. By a couple,mean, like, what, eight eight or
nine new plants to the invasivespecies list, which has a more
(03:24):
formal official name, the ExoticWeeds Act. So if you would get
on to the Internets and type itin, you'd probably wanna type in
the Illinois Exotic Weeds Act,to get a more the the official
formal, language of this.
But, we'll leave a link below tothe press release that came out
of these new species being addedto this list. Now they're not
(03:47):
all new to me. I don't know,Ken, or or any of these new to
you, some of these species thatwe're seeing?
Ken (03:56):
I've heard of all of them except for two.
Chris (04:01):
Mhmm.
Ken (04:03):
But familiar with probably only three of them, four of
them. Others I've heard of, butI've never seen them in person.
We'll put it that way.
Chris (04:14):
Some of these new species, I mean, let's let's
dive right into what what iseffective right now. And of the
list that they gave, all butone, this rule goes into effect
right now. So the ones that areimmediately considered invasive
species of Illinois or exoticweeds, we'll say that, The first
(04:37):
one is tree of heaven. Now Iknow, Ken, you're probably
familiar with that, especiallywith our conversation about the,
spotted lanternfly we had, lastmonth.
Ken (04:50):
Yeah. That's one you know, you've heard of it, but yet now
with spotted lanternfly gettingmore attention. You hear about
that a lot more often. So thisis one, was originally grown as
an ornamental. Like a lot ofplants, a lot of our invasive
species are brought inintentionally, whether it be
ornamental, soil stabilization,what have you, and then escape
(05:12):
and cause far more problems thanthey're worth.
So tree of heaven is one thatit's kind of a trash tree. You
find it all over the place,like, growing in sidewalk cracks
and alleys and you name it. Itcan grow. It can grow there. So
one of the reasons why a lot ofthese things are invasive or
exotic or whatever you wannacall them As they do very well
(05:33):
in lot of times less than idealconditions, they can take over
rather easily.
So yeah.
Chris (05:42):
Well, I every morning, at least last year, when I dropped
my kid off at school, there wasa house that had a tree of
heaven in the front yard. And II'm not sure what prompted them
to do it, but they cut it down,which I I can only imagine must
have smelled terrible if youwere the arborist cutting that
tree down because tree of heavenis known to have a very foul
(06:03):
scent. I do have some popping upin my backyard. And if you are
ever curious, because it has acompound leaf, and I have a lot
of black walnut, which also hasa compound leaf. And if you're
ever curious, they both havevery distinct and dissimilar
smells from each other.
Black walnut, I find it a verypungent but pleasant odor for
(06:25):
black walnut. Tree of heaven,no. Not it's not does not smell
good. I can't imagine what itsmells like if you're running
that thing through a chippershredder. Must not smell good at
all.
But the interesting thing isafter they cut the tree down,
they they ground the stump out,And then it just the whole lawn
(06:46):
today is just it's like a lawnof tree of heaven. Mhmm. And so
without the use of herbicide,basically, what they have to do
is sort of just mow, mow, mowuntil that root system exhausts
itself. Unfortunately, thesprouts are also showing up
(07:06):
across the sidewalk in a fenceline. And and so you can just
see how this one sole singulartree has now been cut down and
turned into this absolute beastand is going to pretty much
colonize this fence line unlesssomeone does something about it.
And maybe we'll get into thislater. We talk about what this
(07:27):
means for for these plants. But,yeah, we'll just leave it at
that.
Ken (07:33):
Yeah. I'll say until I really started paying attention,
we've got a walnut. Neighbors oneither side of us have walnut
trees and I just thought we hadwalnut seedlings popping up
everywhere. Until one day I andI just pull them, till one day I
smelled it and I like, wait asecond. This is not walnut.
That's not
Chris (07:50):
a walnut. This is awful. Yeah.
Ken (07:54):
It's almost kinda like cat pee.
Chris (07:57):
Mhmm. Musky cat pee that's been sitting in a
nineteen seventies carp shagcarpet.
Ken (08:05):
In 90 degree weather.
Chris (08:06):
90 degree weather. Yeah. Yeah. That's the best way to
describe it. Another one, whichI think we're all familiar with.
In fact, we have our our bookthat I use this all the time,
the management of invasiveplants in pests of Illinois.
Ken's got it too right next tohim. Even though when this was
written, officially, legallyspeaking, these plants were not
(08:29):
invasive. But look what's on thecover here. This is garlic
mustard.
It is now legally saying this isan invasive species in Illinois,
but we've we've known it wasgonna it it should have been for
many years because it we've hadit on the cover of our book for
years. Garlic mustard. Yeah. Thethis one showed up because true
(08:50):
to its name, you can eat it. Ittastes kinda garlic, kinda
mustardy flavor.
You can turn it into a kind of atasty pesto, but it's a
biennial. And so it reallystarts out a little hidden down
by the soil level, this littlerosette growing at the soil
plane. And then the next year,it shoots up that that
(09:12):
vegetative or reproductiveleaves and the leaf or the
reproductive stalk flowers andthen boom, seeds. And so yeah,
garlic mustard been around for awhile, now finally deemed
legally invasive in Illinois.
Ken (09:26):
Yeah. This is one that was, yeah, purposely introduced as a
pot herb. So people growing intheir gardens to use and it's
gotten away from us. Find it inusually like forest areas. Yeah.
Forest areas. Mhmm. And it whatexudes chemicals that inhibits
(09:47):
the growth of other plants, youget these large monocultures of
it.
Chris (09:53):
Yeah. We we used to do garlic mustard pulls, but then I
think there was more researchthat came out in later on from
there that suggested that maybethis this plant might just sort
of self implode on itself overtime, that it might just spread
spread spread, and then it mightjust sort of just maybe just
kind of vanish into thebackground. So we don't really
do much garlic mustard pullsanymore. At least not very
(10:18):
frequently. I still pull it whenI come across it though.
Ken (10:22):
So then the next one on the list is leafy spurge. I don't
know if I'd heard of this one. Imean, I've heard of spurges
before, maybe not this onespecifically. But this one,
pastures, grassland areas,roadsides, things like that is
where it can cause some issues.Mhmm.
(10:46):
So This is the one yes. Yes. Soaccording to there's a USDA NRCS
land guide for this. Katelynhorses avoid leafy spurge. The
milky sap, which containsingenol, toxic compound can
cause severe diarrhea andweakness in katelyn horses
(11:07):
forced to consume it, It cancause blistering and hair loss
around horses' hooves.
Can be irritating to the skin,eyes, and digestive tracts of
humans and other animals. Sheepand goats tend to be less
bothered by it.
Chris (11:19):
Yeah. Mean, goats can eat practically anything it seems
like, but I I have definitelyseen this one probably out in
pastures. I feel like I've evenseen it in the like, in a garden
center or something. It doeshave these, like, yellow, pretty
like cup shaped flowers, a bowlshaped flowers. And they're I
(11:41):
think they can be prettypersistent.
I know that when they set seed,that seed can last for quite a
bit of time in the soil. And soit would be I think with all of
these, it's pretty much a longterm battle that you're facing
with them, but but leafy spurgecan really show up years after
you think you might have gottenit eradicated. So interestingly,
(12:04):
in in this book, it says thatthe US Department of Agriculture
has shown success using sixnatural enemies of leafy spurge
imported from Europe. Theseinclude a stem and root boring
beetle, four root mining fleabeetles, and a shoot tip gall
midge in controlling this. So Iguess we've already deployed
some biologicals against thisparticular plant.
(12:27):
And looks like looks likethey're gonna do large scale
field rearing and releaseprograms in all the in many
northern states.
Ken (12:37):
Yeah. And pointing it out with like, oh, these natural
enemies, biological control.Probably, we're not going to
wipe it out, but it will helpslow the spread. Maybe reduce
those by place. Kind of samething with Everest Lash part.
They've released parasitoids andstuff like that. We're not
eliminating it, but hopefullyslowing the spread a little bit.
Chris (12:58):
Alright. Well, this next one on the list is one that I
have seen and I'm seeing morefrequently, and that is Serrisia
lespedeza. This is one that Iknow has especially is in the
counties to the south of me,like in Ken's County, and it has
been creeping northward. It'sbeen found where I am in in
(13:19):
Southern McDonough County, andit is a big problem for people
with CRP, Conservation Reserve,program, where people set aside
ag land, to conserve that soilfor future use. And what we
would wanna see are more nativegrasses and wildflowers, but
(13:40):
what has been happening morewith the sericea lespedeza is
that this just shows up.
And of all the things we use tomanage our our prairies
essentially, which which what wewanna see on a lot of CRP or
sometimes timber, is we usefire. And fire actually promotes
the growth of Serraceaelespedecia. And it it it has
(14:03):
become a very troublesome weed.A lot of biologists are are very
concerned about it. They're notquite sure, you know, in what
direction we need to go on sucha large scale that they're
dealing with this particularplant.
However, I think right now whatmost of the recommendations, how
they go is basically use fire topromote the plant, and then
(14:24):
after you get a flush of growthof sericea, you then hit it with
an herbicide to try to kill it.And so it's sort of like make it
real happy with fire and thentry to kill it with herbicide.
Ken (14:37):
I don't remember how many years ago now. So I went out to
a field visit and someone Ididn't know what it was. So I
sent up pictures and I thinkthere's multiple problematic
problematic weeds in this theilea. Sriricea lespedeza was one
of them here. And more of thisplace in Morgan County.
So Yeah. We do have it here.
Chris (15:00):
Well and I was visiting with the farmer about two months
ago, and we're out in his back40 there in some of the CRP
area. And he said sericea isjust one of those. It is a very
fine textured plant where itsort of hides in the prairie.
You don't see it until it reallyjust begins to to explode into
this this group, you know, thismass. And then, Ken, I think you
(15:24):
and I, we were in Springfield inSeptember, and we were at the a
park.
And this particular park had aprairie area, and the whole
prairie was essentially sericealespedeza. And they were
basically starting over fromscratch with that.
Ken (15:43):
Yeah. Yeah. That was everywhere.
Chris (15:45):
Trying to think if I have a picture I can throw in. I
don't know if I do, but but I'llsee if I can find track one down
for you.
Ken (15:51):
Yeah. I don't think I do. I'm taking a picture that I
should have.
Chris (15:55):
It's just my my mouth dropped open like,
Ken (15:57):
wow. It's usually what I take pictures of. That's the
problem. It's not the goodstuff.
Chris (16:03):
I know. Yeah.
Ken (16:06):
Alright. Our next new exotic weed here in Illinois is
Japanese stiltgrass. So this oneis a an annual grass that is
named Asia. So this one Iactually found out was first
reported in 1919, introduced aspacking material for imported
porcelain from China. Firstdocumented in Tennessee.
(16:28):
It has now spread throughoutgood chunk of the Eastern United
States. And with this one, youknow, it kind of looks almost
bamboo ish. We've got thebroader, wider leaves and stuff
at least when I look at it. Ithink it it looks like bamboo to
me anyway. And this one, plantscan produce thousand seeds every
(16:55):
year, so very prolific seedproducer.
They're they're smaller seeds sothey move rather easily in the
environment. That's on, youknow, somebody walking through,
pick them up on them, animals,floating on water, vehicles,
what have you. And they canremain viable up to five years
in the soil, so they can stickaround for a decent amount of
(17:18):
time too. So, and then you cansay find, you know, pictures out
there where you, where they dieback and it's just the ground is
matted when you have this real,real high concentrations and
kind of chokes, potentiallychokes out other stuff because
of that. Because other one,know, smaller populations you
(17:38):
can hand pull or basically justsince it's an annual trying to
prevent seed formation on.
Chris (17:46):
I've I've definitely seen stilt grass before. I probably
might might even have it in theditch or something when growing
near the house. But but, yeah, Ihave not not had to deal with it
personally in terms of control,but I know I've been seeing it
around more. Well, the nextplant on the list is the amaur
(18:08):
cork tree, and this is aninteresting one. It looks a lot
like tree of heaven, I think.
The bark looks like it. But thebranching is different. So if
you're looking at this, youknow, the the bark looks similar
to to tree of heaven, at leastyoung trees do. And then but the
the tree of heaven, it has a analternate bud or branching
(18:33):
habit, whereas the amber corktree has opposite leaves. And
and also the the leaves of ambercroak tree, I think they look
more like a like a bushhoneysuckle leaf where they have
that acuminator, sort of thatpinched tip of the leaves.
And and then, of course, I I didthe odor. You know? When in
(18:56):
doubt, scratch the tree andsniff it if it smells, as we
described it before, cat pee ina 1970 shy carpet that's been
sitting there for months.Probably dealing with tree
heaven. But it it came over toThe US in 1850, more than likely
ornamental tree.
It's also a functional tree. Soif you peel off the barks, it
actually has this bright yellowtissue beneath it and is used
(19:19):
for for dyes, like a naturaldye. The as the tree gets older,
the bark on it will develop intothis more spongy cork like
texture. And and it and so,yeah, it's just it has been here
for a while. And but I think yousee a lot more out in the
Northeast and and other areaslike that.
(19:41):
But it it you can find it herein Illinois, most definitely.
Ken (19:44):
Yeah. This is one I've those I've heard of, but I don't
know. I'm not knowingly. See, Imay have seen it, but
Chris (19:50):
I just
Ken (19:50):
didn't know what I was looking at.
Chris (19:52):
The the problem is once you figure it out, once you See
it everywhere. Yeah. You you'llsee it everywhere.
Ken (19:59):
Alright. And then our last two, these are two I was not I'm
not familiar with.
Chris (20:04):
Yeah.
Ken (20:04):
Me neither. Not sure I'd heard of them before this
release came out. And this isblack and pale swallowwort. So
just doing a little lookingbefore we started recording
here. So this is from Universityof Minnesota talking about pale
swallowwort.
Non native plant that has beenfound in Minnesota, also in
(20:24):
Illinois. It is an herbaceousperennial vining milkweed
originating from SouthernEurope. These are believed to be
fatal to monarch caterpillars,which mistake them for native
milkweeds. So vining plant,vines can get six feet long,
think it's the same for blackswallowwort as well. So they're
basically, they're kind ofchoking out other stuff.
(20:49):
Mechanical control, easilybreaks when hand pulled, roots
can be dug out and disposed of.But you need to continue
monitoring, can re root fromthose seed, those chunks up in
the soil. Mowing is notrecommended as it likely spreads
the seeds. The seeds have arekind of like milkweed seeds.
They've got the fluff on themthough.
They'll float away and stuffairborne. And then herbicide
(21:14):
like these others, you know, theglyphosate Triclopyr, something
like that while plants are inflowering. Or they can be due to
the cut cut and apply to thestem. And what was it? Another
one for another name for blackswallow word is dog strangle
vine.
So that gives you an indicationof maybe what their growth habit
(21:37):
is like, and mining and andchoking stuff out.
Chris (21:41):
Yeah. I it is basically a plant. Any plant part can
resprout and form a new plant.So, yeah, just if you do have
this one to control, you prettymuch just need to get it out.
Don't compost it.
Don't do anything. It's gotta beburned or sent to the landfill.
Ken (21:58):
And this is one. It was first cultivated in greenhouses
in the mid eighteen hundreds inIpswich at the Harvard Botanic
Garden in Essex County,Massachusetts. Then in 1864,
plant collector in Essex County,Massachusetts, recorded as,
quote, escaping from the botanicgarden where it is a weed and
promising to become naturalized.And Yes. Sure enough.
(22:22):
Rather successfully.
Chris (22:25):
Well, that's unfortunate. But yes, I mean, all of these
plants because of their nature,makes them invasive in in our
natural areas. Now everythingwe've just listed, the this rule
takes into effect right now. Assoon as it was red, boom, these
plants are considered invasive.But there is one that this does
(22:47):
not take effect until01/01/2028.
Ken, drum roll, please. What isthat plant? That
Ken (22:57):
is good old good old calorie or sometimes called
Bradford pear, which is a statecultivar, of calorie pear. Think
we should say for we'll get alittle more into this, and a
little bit about the definition.So with the Exotic Weed Act, for
this, it is illegal for anyoneto buy, sell, distribute, or
plant any of these listedspecies without a permit. So you
(23:21):
cannot buy them, sell, trade,plant, whatever, you don't have
to manage them. That's animportant distinction there.
You can't so just because youhave calorie repair doesn't mean
you have to cut it down. I'dargue you should, but legally,
you do not have to. And until01/01/2028, you can still buy it
in Illinois. Again, I wouldencourage you to reconsider
(23:43):
that. Don't go out and buy asmany as you can because you
can't buy them anymore.
Resist that temptation and don'tdon't do that. And I think the
reasoning is that it's becausethere's, you know, there's a lot
of nursery stock around. So it'sbeen delayed for a couple of
years.
Chris (24:02):
Yeah. I I wonder if I'm gonna see a lot of calorie pair
with for sale signs on this,Steve. Highly discounted
material. Yeah. Fire shot.
There you go. Yeah. Speaking offire, these do get they're in
the Rose family, so they do getdiseases. A lot of the ones
around me have fire blight,which I joyfully just sit back
(24:24):
and watch as these plants justdie from fire blight. Me too.
Yeah. And I'm like, hey. Youknow what? You should prune you
should prune that fire blightout and then don't clean your
pruners and go prune that othercalorie pair over there because
it's a bacteria that can bespread with your with your
pruners. But don't do that,folks, if it's not yours because
(24:45):
you might get in trouble.
Ken (24:47):
Turn the mister on, Nick. Keep it nice and wet.
Chris (24:50):
There you go. Yes. Yeah. You know, fingers crossed for a
hailstorm because hail damageactually will spread fire blight
throughout the entire canopy. Socool because hail creates a
wound, bacteria can enter thewound, boom.
There you go.
Ken (25:06):
So Callipear is another one that was intentionally
introduced. It's been broughtinto US, multiple times. So
originally in 1909, ArnoldArboretum in Harvard, again
Harvard causing problems again.Don't come after me Harvard.
They, in 1916 USGA, brought inhopes of developing firebite
(25:28):
resistance to our common bear,the bear we eat.
So, the cauliflower pears usedas rootstock for those edible
pears. But then in the 1950s,kind of gained interest as an
ornamental value, know, as we'rebuilding, building more kind of
that postwar housing and theseare quick growing trees, have
(25:49):
pretty flowers, if you ignorethe smell and stuff. The kind of
the original cultivar wasBradford and these are not so
fruitful, they don't, they'renot producing fruit. But then as
we start introducing more andmore cultivars and stuff, they
can cross pollinate, we startgetting viable fruits, and then
(26:11):
these really start kind ofescaping cultivation. Think what
was it by the 1980s, it was thesecond most popular tree in The
US.
A lot of places need new housingdevelopment. Every tree, every
house has got a Bradford orCallery Pear planted in it.
Chris (26:27):
I'd I'd say in 2010 when I was doing landscaping, yeah,
we still were playing playingthem everywhere out in Kansas.
So I I gotta cut down a lot ofCallery pears to make up for
that that sin there, my penance.So I I do find calorie pear
growing randomly in my landscapebeds. And at first, was like,
(26:49):
what is this? Is this a cherry?
I'm not sure. It's smoothbarked. But now the more
familiar I've become with seeingthis plant, then I realize, oh,
just another calorie pearseedling sprouting in my
landscape bed. So it is one ofthose that I think it takes you
by surprise once you you likesee it and it sort of just jumps
out at you like, woah, that's Ihad no idea it would have
(27:11):
traveled this deep into thewoods. But sure enough, does.
And then you start lookingaround you and and you start
seeing it more and morefrequently.
Ken (27:19):
Yeah. Especially in the spring, if you're driving along
interstate, especially we usedget around for me, we get around
driving down the St. Louis areafrom Jackson on one fifty five.
You know, the whole side of theinterstate and area is white,
and that's canopyr blooming. Andit also hold onto its leaves
longer than a lot of our nativespecies.
(27:40):
So if we've got trees, you know,as as our our native species
start dropping leaves, CalleryPear sometimes kind of stick out
too because it's holding thoseleaves a little bit longer
sometimes.
Chris (27:54):
And so we we you had described this, Ken, as, you
know, what does it mean to be inthe Illinois Exotic Weed Act?
Can't sell it, can't buy it,don't plant it. But that's
really it. That's really theonly restriction that you have
in terms of enforcement. It'sreally enforcement of, like, the
nursery trade.
You know, we we don't wanna seethis in for sale anymore. But
(28:18):
otherwise, there's there'snothing else. There is another
list out there. It's called thenoxious weed list. And this I
don't think this necessarilytargets non native plants
because there's other plantslike ragweed on the noxious weed
list.
But that's the noxious weed act.And in this particular list of
(28:42):
plants for Illinois, and I don'tknow if this particular list has
ever been updated for years, Butit's got plants that if found
growing on your property, therewould be a force to say you need
to control this. So, like, exexample, ragweed is one of them.
(29:04):
Ragweed is a native. Ragweed isactually kind of an important
native plant for some of ourground foraging birds.
So wind pollinated. But what itdoes do is it gives us
allergies. You know, a lot ofpeople are allergic to ragweed
because it is a wind pollinatedplant. And so when you're in
like a city or a dense a humanoccupied area, it would make
(29:28):
sense to be able to say, hey,you need to control this
ragweed. A lot of people aresneezing, I guess, right now.
You're making people miserable.There's other ones out there,
though, too, like cannabis. Youknow, they say, hey. You're not
allowed to grow that on yourproperty. It's a noxious it's a
noxious weed, and we have theenforcement ability to tell you
(29:49):
to to get rid of this plant.
Ken (29:51):
Yeah. And I say for the for the ragweed, that's only for
within city limits orincorporated areas. So if you
live out in the country, it isnot it would not be considered
anoxicerative. It's yeah. Sothere's a document, Illinois
regulations regarding invasiveplant species, and we can link
(30:12):
to this.
It kind of gives a, I guess, aregular non lawyer definition of
this. Now I'll just read for thenoxious weed law. This law,
administered by the director ofthe Illinois Department of
Agriculture, gives countygovernments the authority and
responsibility to survey for,control, and govern the
distribution of noxious weedswithin their jurisdiction. The
(30:34):
law also provides an avenue forthe establishment of both a weed
control superintendent and anoxious weed control fund within
each county. Depending on thesituation, new infestations will
be managed by the landowner, bythe county, and billed to the
landowner.
The county and the landownersplit the costs or at the
expense of the county. So youare legally required to manage
(30:58):
these and it's up to theindividual counties to enforce
this. And say enforcement can bespotty
Chris (31:08):
Yeah. In the state. Mostly nonexistent. We we
actually, extension, we do get alot of pushback on this one from
people that say that tell us whyaren't we out there enforcing
this more. So just just FYI, asKen just read, it's the
counties.
We're an educational group. Wewe aren't we aren't out there
(31:31):
turning the tickets out. Yeah. II don't want that job. So
Ken (31:36):
Yeah. But you mentioned you had ragweed so common and giant
ragweed, again, within citylimits, marijuana, musk thistle,
Canada thistle, kudzu, perennialsouth thistle, the perennial
sorghums like Johnson grass. Ithink yes. I think those are it.
(31:57):
So again, those you have to bylaw, you're supposed to manage
those.
Chris (32:02):
Yeah. But for the other list, the exotic weed act, the
invasive species, we're stillgoing to talk about and
encourage homeowners andlandowners to control those even
if there is no necessarilyregulatory requirement for you
to do so. Because the big issuewith invasive species is that it
(32:27):
limits biodiversity in ournatural systems. And we need
biodiversity for resilience inour natural systems. And so,
yes, on this show today and infuture shows, if we talk
invasive species, we're gonnaalso tell you how to kill them.
Ken (32:42):
Get rid of them. Yeah. And there there's also the Illinois
injurious species rule, which isone that rarely ever gets talked
about, at least in myexperience. So again, just
reading from this document. Thislaw administered by the Illinois
Department of Natural Resourcesdoes not only focus on weeds,
but also regulates injuriousanimals.
(33:03):
It is illegal for any species onthis list to be possessed,
propagated, bought, sold,bartered, or offered to be
bought, sold, bartered,transported, traded,
transferred, or loaned to anyother person or institution
unless a permit is firstobtained, except persons engaged
in interstate transport forlawful commercial purposes who
do not buy, sell, barter, tradetransfer loan are offered to do
(33:24):
so, and Illinois may transportinjurious species across
Illinois without injuriousspecies permit from the permit.
It's a really long sentence.
Chris (33:33):
My goodness. What what are your legal fees for that
one, Ken? Oh, my gosh.
Ken (33:38):
And there I mean, there's a lot of plants. I think all the
ones I'm listening on here areplants, though. I'm not gonna
read all of them because there'sa lot of like mosquito fern,
flowering rush, Mediterraneankiller algae. Nice. Probably a
good one to have.
Anchored water, hyacinthhydrilla, Chinese water,
(34:01):
spinach, yellow flag iris,oxygen weed, arrow leaf, parrot
feather, Eurasian watermilfoil.A lot of these are more aquatic
stuff.
Chris (34:11):
Mhmm.
Ken (34:11):
Duck lettuce, curly leaf pond weed, giant sylvania, a
bunch of those differentspecies, water soldier, water
chestnut. So can't can't growthose either.
Chris (34:29):
Well, I guess we need to bring this list up when we talk
ponds the next time. In essence,I guess everyone there's a lot
of lists out there, at least inIllinois. I there's three. And
official list. And and I knowpeople will call certain plants
invasive.
They might say, yeah, Virginiacreeper, that's invasive. No.
(34:52):
It's aggressive in our book, butlegally, to be called invasive,
we have to have it on thisexotic weed list. I think the
the the term that we've come upwith, though, species of
concern, though, can talk aboutsome non natives that haven't
been listed yet, which are stillin our book, but they're they're
(35:15):
they're of concern. And,hopefully, one day, they will be
listed.
And I'm sure some of you are,like, screaming or ready to type
something in like, well, whatabout burning bush? Yeah. It's
in the it's in the book tocontrol. Just is not on the list
yet.
Ken (35:31):
Yeah. And I know when this got posted on social media, you
know, there's a lot of peoplethrowing out, yeah, what about
burning bush? Teasel is one, andI think Teasel is on the exotic
Chris (35:44):
Mhmm.
Ken (35:45):
Species list. So there's there these are the exotic weed
act, those listed plants. Theseare the nine new ones, but there
are others. Tiesole, RussianOlive, Autumn Olive, Buckthorn,
Giant Hogweed. All thehoneysuckle.
Honeysuckle. Now we haveMultiflora Rose, Purple Loose
(36:08):
Strife, and others. So therethere are others. But again, a
lot these are not they're notbeing sold anyway or given away.
There are kind of these sets in,and I think we're both guilty of
it too.
There are kind of these defineddefinitions of what invasive and
(36:30):
things are, but we kind of usethem, some of these terms
interchangeably. So, like,invasive and so 02/03/1999,
executive order one three oneone two signed by President
Clinton, established NationalInvasive Species Council, and
they define invasive species asnon native or alien to the
(36:51):
ecosystem under consideration.And a species whose introduction
causes or is likely to causeeconomic harm, environmental
harm, or harm to human health.So but but kind of by this
definition, to be invasive hasto be non native, introduced
either intentionally orunintentionally, it doesn't
matter how it got here. Andlikely, it does or is likely to
(37:13):
cause environmental or economicharm or harm to humans.
So then you're getting into yournatives. So native plants right
off the bat cannot by definitionbe native because they are, or
can be invasive because they arenative to that area. And even
native, you know, definition,you know, what exactly is the
(37:36):
definition of native? One is,you know, a plant that is part
of the balance of nature and hasdeveloped over hundreds or
thousands of years in aparticular region or ecosystem.
It's evolved in a specificgeographical area.
Usually a lot of times definedas growing wild when scientific
collection began in the area.
Chris (37:54):
Yeah.
Ken (37:55):
So, you know, like you talk about invasive natives, you
know, poison ivy, that's anative plant. Mhmm. But it's not
invasive. So Right. It's justproblematic.
Chris (38:09):
I I do go back and forth with some people over Osage
Orange, which is also known as,like, the hedge apple. And I
think when during Europeansettlement, I don't think it was
necessarily found as far northas Illinois. They believe the
ones that they did find werebrought up from the South by
Native Americans, but there'smore historical evidence beyond
(38:34):
before that to show that OsageOrange was present in, like,
Illinois before the last iceage. And that after the ice age,
we lost a lot of the megafauna,which would be seed dispersers
like the giant sloth, themammoth, all that, and which
then kind of pushed Osage Orangedown south, and it was not able
(38:57):
to really naturally return backto the northern part of the
continent. So I still say is I Istill would call it a native
tree in my neck of the woods.
Ken (39:07):
Native ish. Yeah. I think most maps show it as Texas,
Oklahoma, a little bit ofArkansas
Chris (39:12):
Yeah.
Ken (39:13):
As a native region. And, like, even stuff we you know,
bald cypress, that's likeExtreme Southern Illinois is its
Northern extent naturally, buthumans have spread it further
north. So native to Illinois,but a very small portion at the
Southern Tip of Illinois. Andlike even things like
(39:35):
sunflowers, sunflowers arenative to North America and
indigenous Americans spread themfar and wide, that they're I
think, I believe they're nativeto was it Mexico? And they've
been spread by humans.
Chris (39:49):
Fun with definitions and and and putting living things in
categories and build some ofthose living things don't read
like us humans do. Exactly.Well, Ken, whenever I'm talking
invasive species and and andexasperated people throw up
their hands and say, why do wein The US have to deal with all
these invasive species? Are arewe sending our own native
(40:14):
species out to other continents?And they they seem to be kind of
happy when I say, yes, we are.
The whole planet is dealing withinvasive species. And so, yeah,
they seem to almost take alittle bit of satisfaction in
that. I'm like, well, no. Weshouldn't be happy about that.
(40:34):
We don't want to necessarily bedoing that.
Eastern Negundo, which is boxelder maple, red oak, some of
our or like goldenrod. Oh, it'sa terrible weed across the the
Atlantic and and the othercontinents, Europe and Asia. So
we have a lot of species thathave been that have left the
(40:54):
North American continent and andcrossed over the oceans in
either direction and become hugeproblems in other parts of the
world.
Ken (41:06):
Yeah. It was, I think, Colorado potato beetle in
Europe.
Chris (41:10):
Mhmm. Yeah.
Ken (41:14):
Some army worms and stuff. Mhmm. And other I think African
and other parts of the world. Sowe're sending just as much stuff
we are sending it just as muchelsewhere. We just don't hear
about it because it's notaffecting us.
It's native here. They're notthey can be pests, but they're
not nearly as bad as bad a pestas they would be other places,
(41:36):
just like, you know, Emerald AshBorer. Minor pests, there wasn't
a whole lot of research done onit until it showed up in The US
and Europe when it starts wipingout trees because in its native
range, it's managed by naturalenemies. The the native ash
trees evolved with it. So yeah.
(41:56):
We're
Chris (41:57):
So no reason to look at it. But I think, the the story
goes is that, back during theCold War, The Soviet Union
accused The US of droppingColorado potato beetle onto,
into their country. And, youknow, I I don't know if The US
(42:21):
has confirmed or denied thatclaim, but I I remember that
being a big deal, at least ifyou lived in The Soviet Union
back then, because, you know,potatoes kind of a big deal over
in Russia.
Ken (42:32):
Yeah. So it's a two way street. We just we just don't
hear about it coming from us.
Chris (42:37):
Well, that was a lot of great information about the new
invasive species that have beenadded to the Illinois Exotic
Weed Act. We'll have additionalresources for you in the show
notes down below if you wannalearn more about them and their
controls and the other speciesthat might also be listed on the
Illinois Exotic Weed Act. Well,the Good Growing podcast is a
(42:58):
production of University ofIllinois Extension edited this
week by me, Chris Enroth. Hey,Ken. Thanks for hanging out with
me today and going through thislist of new plants that we can
well, not new.
We've already known about them,but fresh plants added to the
invasive species list that wecan call them invasive
officially now.
Ken (43:17):
Yep. I'm gonna have to go start looking at pictures and
brush up on my ID. Make sure I'mproperly identifying them now.
Chris (43:24):
I don't care if it's a amber cork tree or if it's a
tree of heaven. If it's got barklike that, just kill it. I'm
glad they added them both at thesame time.
Ken (43:35):
Let's do this again next week.
Chris (43:38):
Oh, we shall do this again next week. The
horticultural hijinks continues.The Good Growing podcast, so
we'll see what happens. It'sgetting to be turkey month now.
So I'm gonna get out thesweaters, bust out the soup.
I don't know what to say at theend anymore. Well, listeners,
(44:01):
thank you for doing what you dobest, and that is listening. Or
if you watched us on YouTubewatching, and as always, keep on
growing.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.