Ep. 232 The Cranberry Story: Native Roots and Modern Agriculture | #Good Growing - Good Growing

Episode Transcript
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Chris (00:05):
Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris
Enroth, horticulture educatorwith the University of Illinois
Extension coming at you fromMacomb, Illinois, and we have
got a great show for you today.The the, oh, ever present
cranberry. It has been a stapleof this country since well
before the Europe ans showed up,part of the Native Americans

(00:27):
culture diet. Ah, yes.
American cranberry. That's whatwe're talking about today. And
you know I'm not doing this bymyself. I am joined as always
every single week byhorticulture educator Ken
Johnson in Jacksonville. Hey,Ken.

Ken (00:39):
Hello, Chris. It's it's one of the best times of year.
Cranberries are showing up. Notthat you can't find them be
around, but they're extra, like,prevalent, I guess, this time of
year.

Chris (00:50):
That's right. Yes. See, you I found my cranberries
today, and and and I know alsowhy you like this time of year
because people start playingChristmas music again, which I
still say, boy, I'm one of thosecurmudgeons that say wait till
after Thanksgiving before I getthat Christmas music going. I

(01:11):
don't stop. So It's all year forKen.

Ken (01:15):
Christmas lights are up and

Chris (01:19):
So excited, everyone. It's favorite time of year. Well
well, we we have been going onsome deep dives of of
cranberries, I think, this lastweek. Ken, you found us a great
book to read. So I've we wetried to read as much as
possible.

(01:39):
Like, I think we split it inhalf. You read the first half. I
read the second half, and I got,like, halfway through the second
half. I'll say that much. But

Ken (01:45):
I halfway through the first half.

Chris (01:47):
There you go. So the this podcast will be halfway there,
not all quite the way. We'll dothe other half next year. But,
yeah, let's let's talk aboutcranberries. And I I guess kick
us off, Ken, since you had thefirst half talking about sort
of, like, the the origination ofthis particular fruit, tell us

(02:12):
about what is the cranberry andthe history of it.

Ken (02:18):
Yeah. So cranberry is a a native plant to The United
States and Canada. It's one ofthe, I guess, handful was the
three main native fruitscultivated on a kind of
commercial level, cranberry,blueberry, and concord grape for
our for our native fruits thatwe have in The US. There's
others, but not really widewidely grown like these are. It

(02:40):
is actually native to Illinoisas well.
So people I think usually whenpeople think of cranberries,
they're thinking out NortheastMassachusetts and stuff, but
it's actually native to theUpper Midwest, up into up into
Canada. So in Illinois, it isnative to, the Chicago area, so
it's at Lake Cook, Lake,McHenry, and Will Counties. I

(03:03):
don't know if you can findcranberries growing natively
there anymore because you'venever been up there. I'm not
sure how many of the bogs stillexist

Chris (03:11):
Still in those areas. They've been paved over or
there's a 80 story skyscraper ontop of them. So, yeah, long
gone.

Ken (03:19):
Yeah. So these are these are do grow in in bog or or
wetlands, typically bog. So likein Massachusetts, I'm assuming
other places as well. Kind ofthese kettle bogs, so glaciers
came through, kind of scouredout these indentations in the
ground. They can have a a claylayer, which doesn't let water
seep through at all or veryquickly, and then that's over

(03:42):
time been filled in with plantdebris and created a bog.
So this is where we're findingthese a lot of times in those
those those wet kind of acidicconditions. And for as far as
the name cranberry, that comesfrom the flower. So the the
flower on these kinda looks likea sandhill crane. So,

(04:02):
originally, the Europeans calledthem cranberries. Over time,
somehow the e got dropped, andwe get our cranberries.
And they have been harvestedprobably thousands of years by
indigenous Americans. Earlysettlers would harvest
cranberries as well. This isgonna be by hand. And in that

(04:22):
book so the book is America'sfounding fruit to cranberry in a
new environment by SusanPlayfair. Got some interesting
stuff in here on on the chaptercalled the first cultivators.
So the pilgrims, they actuallyhad rules set out, ordinances in
1773 on how you could harvestcranberries. So any person

(04:45):
should be found that any personthat should be found gathering
cranberries before the September20 exceeding one court shall be
liable to pay $1 and have theberries taken away. That they
shall find any person gatheringshall have them, in the dollar,
and any person should be foundgathering cranberries on the

(05:05):
Sabbath shall be liable todouble punishment. So I mean,
they're quite desirable, andeven some of the the native
Americans, they also had rulesabout when you could pick. You
couldn't pick unripe berries.
You had to wait for a certaintime to pick them as well. So
they're kind of a high demandcrop, you know, they can keep
for a long time. They're high invitamin c. So, you know, we

(05:27):
start getting into more colonialAmerica with ships. You know,
they're popular barrels ofcranberries on ships, you get
your vitamin c to prevent scurvyand stuff.
Whereas, like, in in England andstuff, they're using more limes.
In The Americas, we're usingcranberries a lot of times to
get that vitamin c. And, really,the the first cultivation how we

(05:47):
think of it as cultivating,like, intentionally growing
plants and caring for theminstead of just harvesting or
gathering them from the wild,began in 1812. And that was what
was his name? Henry Hall, whowas a former schooner captain,
noticed that cranberries thatwere growing by the sea would
have sand blown in on them, andthat would cause them to grow

(06:10):
up.
You have better production andstuff. So we actually started
collecting the vines andplanting them, fencing that area
off to keep cattle off, andwould sand them and stuff like
that. And that kinda got the thecranberry production started in
Massachusetts, and then, youknow, that more and more people
saw that and got interested.People in New Jersey had similar

(06:32):
growing conditions, also hadnative cranberries started it,
and they were bringing some ofthe, I guess, varieties from
Massachusetts because as peoplewere harvesting, they're
selecting ones that have biggerberries, darker colors,
different desirablecharacteristics, and some of
those we're still using nowadaysfrom some of these varieties

(06:53):
that were chosen from back inthe eighteen hundreds. Started
bringing those down to NewJersey and growing them.
And then eventually, it's kindof moving out into Wisconsin and
the West Coast as well. So, youknow, I think, typically, again,
when people think ofcranberries, I think of
Massachusetts, but Wisconsin isactually the largest producer.

(07:13):
About 60% of the cranberriesgrown in The US are grown in
Wisconsin, kind of in in CentralWisconsin is the main area
there. And I think they're thethe largest producer in the
world, because really there'snot a whole lot of production
outside The US. Massachusetts isabout 25 ish percent, and then
we have Oregon, Washington, andNew Jersey also will raise

(07:34):
cranberries commercially.
Now and one thing I saw, youknow, reading about this,
there's not there's not, like, atremendous amount of growers. I
mean, it's maybe several 100 Imean, couple of several 100
people doing this, but, youknow, it's not a, you know, a
massive scale. I can even seesome of these other crops,
apples, specialty crops andstuff. There's this fairly, say,

(07:59):
fairly limited size when youthink about kind of the number
of growers and even the acreage,being used for this.

Chris (08:05):
Yeah. I I I it was an interesting dive into history, I
I will say that much. It it wentinto the formation of all of
these cranberry growersassociations to try to protect
some of these farmers, which didkind of consolidate a lot of the

(08:26):
the growing in these thesevarious different groups. And so
there's really only, yeah, ahandful of, like, organized
organizations, kinda umbrellaorganizations that these growers
fall under. Probably the mostpopular one of those is gonna be
Ocean Spray, which is actuallyfounded by not a farmer, but a
lawyer founded Ocean Spray.

(08:49):
And it's sort of to get aroundsome of the antitrust laws
because they really just startedbringing all of these farmers
together in in in into onegroup. This happened really
right around the GreatDepression, right when antitrust
laws were in full effect. And sothere is an exemption though for
agriculture. And so then thelawyer then said, we are all ag.

(09:14):
We're all farmers, so now we'rewe're exempt from these
antitrust laws.
And I I think I'm drawing thisline in my own head, but it
seems like a lot of thecranberry grower farmers, a lot
of the the processing, a lot ofthe cleaning, the packaging, all
of that that happens postharvest, that all also happens

(09:35):
on the farm. And so I wonder ifthat's all part of the the we're
all farmers. We're not canners.You know, we're not we're we're
all farming this. So I wonder ifthat's part of it.
But, yeah, a lot of the thecranberry growing is is is kinda
concentrated in just a handfulof people in groups.

Ken (09:56):
Yeah. And since they need those those kind of specialized
conditions, you're kinda limitedto where you can grow them to
begin with. Mhmm. I just wannaand and in this book, they're
talking about a lot of these arenot terribly large acreage that
they're growing. These on it,maybe a handful, twenty, thirty
acres, something like that.
These aren't massive. Mhmm.That's really at least people

(10:18):
they were talking to, and shewas talking to in this book, are
not massive operations. I'm surethere's some out there, but a
lot of them are more of thatthat family farm type level.

Chris (10:27):
Mhmm. But in the beginning, you know, Ken, a lot
of these were dry harvested, asyou mentioned. And then kind of
that thing that that Ocean Sprayand and two other actual there's
so there's three of theseassociations they figured out.
You know, if we could processthese, maybe we could sell them

(10:50):
at a different time of year. Andso really in the nineteen
thirties, it's when a lot ofpeople started shifting away
from, you know, doing a lot oftheir own processing at home.
It began to shift from jars tocanning, like in tin cans. And
so people were going to thestore and buying canned goods

(11:11):
more frequently at that point intime. And then it really started
to ramp up once we got, youknow, thirties, forties, and
then everything was found in thegrocery store. And that one
story that I I read in in mypart of the book was that in old
country stores, you know, it wasvery common for there to be a
barrel of cranberries by thecash register. And these would

(11:33):
have been dry harvested, whichthey last longer.
They have they have betterstorage capacity for that. And
so they would just they wouldsit there, the counter, the
customer would come up, say, Iwanna pound. The the shopkeeper
would would take their bigscoop, kinda weigh it out or
eyeball it sometimes, and thenthey could banter or argue about
if that's actually a pound ofcranberries, all that. And so

(11:56):
but then the all this processingwork gonna happen, and then they
started prepackagingcranberries, fresh cranberries
in this case. And then thatbarrel of cranberries
disappeared, and then theystarted seeing these prepackaged
cranberries show up in otherparts of the store, and then
grocery stores started poppingup.
And then these canned goodsstarted popping into the grocery

(12:18):
stores, these these cranberrysauces. And then but but anyway,
the the the story basicallykinda went on to say the
disappearance of the cranberrywas the first nail in the coffin
of the old country store. So Idon't know if that's necessarily
true or not, but that's that'show they told the story. That's
how they spun the yarn.

Ken (12:39):
Everything goes back to cranberries.

Chris (12:41):
I guess so. Yeah.

Ken (12:44):
And we we talked I think we'll talk about harvest more.
But really, like, when we'refirst, you know, going out and
just harvesting wild, doing thisby hand. And then as we we start
getting into more of the thecultivation of it, that's when
we start getting into the to therakes and stuff. And you see it
faster. Harvest is still reallyslow compared to the the water

(13:09):
that's done now, but, yeah, eventhen, they're still have kind of
these advances on harvesting andand getting more of it and
stuff.

Chris (13:17):
And and you mentioned can Wisconsin has a lot of cranberry
growers, and you had found thatthere's actually tours you can
take in, like, September,October in Wisconsin while
they're harvesting. So folkscheck out, like, I think it's
the Wisconsin Cranberry GrowersAssociation. You can find and
find where they're harvestingcranberries up in Wisconsin and

(13:39):
go visit them.

Ken (13:41):
Yeah. Massachusetts has it too, but Wisconsin's a lot
closer.

Chris (13:48):
Yeah. So Yeah. And and the interesting thing, you know,
again, there's these differentumbrella corporations. The
biggest probably the most wellknown one is going to be Ocean
Spray. And when a farmerbasically enters into a grower
contract with Ocean Spray, OceanSpray says we want 100% of your
cranberries.
So they have to negotiate forthat farm store, that farmstead,

(14:10):
that agritourism side ofcranberry that then they're
allowed to then pull and sell.And so that again, very
interesting read. Yeah. Put thethe title of this book down
below so folks can can pursueit.

Ken (14:27):
Yeah. I I think it will actually try to finish this book
instead of leaving it a quarterready.

Chris (14:32):
That's right.

Ken (14:33):
And I will say it does have I even really looked through it.
It does have a recipe section atthe end. So Mhmm.

Chris (14:38):
Yeah. And there's quite a

Ken (14:40):
few of them in there.

Chris (14:41):
It does have some, like, really interesting quotes also
at the beginning of everychapter. I will share my
favorite, and it is it is aboutthe harvesting process. This is
on chapter nine, and it equatescranberries to cats. So I'll
just read this quote to you. Thecranberry submits to

(15:03):
cultivation, but it retains thatsavor of wilderness that is its
birthright.
It cherishes that as a cat, itsspirit of independence. There
are little things as well asgreat that cannot be tamed,
cranberries and cats, as well aswinds and waters. This was

(15:24):
written by Cornelius Wagant fromthe piece Down Jersey in 1940.
So I will say, oddly enough,when I've read that quote, I had
a cat on my lap at home. So nowI'm eating cranberries.
So, you know, that thisuntamable cultivated plant and

(15:49):
animal.

Ken (15:51):
So I think we've we've kinda covered this, and there's
a lot more to it, but we're justkinda giving you the the dirt. I
don't even know if thisqualifies as the cliff's nose
version of it. But

Chris (16:02):
This is this is part one of a 10 part episode on just the
history of cranberries. There'sa lot there probably.

Ken (16:12):
Yeah. So I I think one thing to talk about, you know,
we've we mentioned harvest andand how they're done by water.
So, basically, the the fieldswill be flooded. They have a a
machine come through. A lot ofplace people describe it as kind
of like an egg beater, and itjust stirs up all the berries,
and the berries float, which iswhich is important.

(16:34):
That's the reason why we canflood the fields to do this. And
that is because if you've ifyou've never seen a fresh
cranberry, you can buy them thistime of year. I think we both
have identical bags ofcranberries.

Chris (16:45):
Yes. We do.

Ken (16:46):
There's just little red. Some of them can be really dark
red, almost black to to lighterred. And some of them, you know,
the the little more white onesare probably aren't quite as
ripe. But if you cut one open,we got these and we could take a
picture of this to put it inexpranitic. We don't see very

(17:08):
well in the video, but Yeah.
We got these four chambers inhere that are filled with air,
and that's what allows them tofloat in the reason why the bogs
can be flooded in order toharvest them. Mhmm.

Chris (17:23):
Yeah. The the the different colors, I I I that was
a very neat part of this bookwhere they talked about the
different colors. Sometimesyou'll see, like, the whitish
cranberry. And so here, there's,like, a dark side and there's a
lighter color side. They saidsometimes that coloration
difference is just part of thatfruit might have been buried a

(17:45):
little bit, might have beenhidden underneath a leaf, or
might have been just on thebottom side of the plant.
And the part that was moreexposed, the sun's usually a a
darker red. You know, some ofthe the interesting things
about, like, when you do wetharvest versus dry harvest,
like, the wet harvest, they, youknow, they really have a certain

(18:07):
window they need to get it alldone. Dry harvest, you still
have a window to get it done,but it it seemed like they could
push that window a little bitlater when the more berries
would be ripe, more darker red.And some of them that are grown
like out in Oregon, they canreally push that window pretty
late because of their moremoderate climate that they have,

(18:28):
and they can get sometimes amuch more sweeter berry. Because
I don't know, Ken, have have youtried your cranberries yet in
terms of flavor profile?
What are we talking here?

Ken (18:39):
I've I've put a dent on my bag here.

Chris (18:41):
Hey. Here you go. It's like popcorn.

Ken (18:45):
I'll say there's a reason there's usually a lot of sugar
added to cranberry products.They are rather tart. And even
then, you you mean you can dothese berries. Some of them are
a little sweeter than others.Again, I think usually the
darker ones, at least ones I'veeaten, tend to be a little bit
sweeter, not quite as as tart.
Don't don't pucker quite somuch.

Chris (19:07):
I've had a like, just been eating the darker red ones.
I'm gonna try this lighter colorone. I I also have a piece of
chocolate, which I will tell youfolks, if you're just eating raw
cranberries and you got a bar ofchocolate nearby, take a little
nibble of chocolate every time.It is it is really good. It is
delicious.
I'll try the white one. Yeah.There's definitely there's

(19:33):
definitely some tartness to thelighter colored ones.

Ken (19:37):
Yeah. You gotta power through that.

Chris (19:38):
Yep. Alright. Look, chocolate.

Ken (19:40):
With the dry harvest, from what I've read, they they wait
until those plants arecompletely dry. So if you have a
dew or something like they'reletting those go completely dry,
before they harvest. Becausewhen they're wet, you know, the
wet harvest, that's gonna reducethe the shelf life for them. So
the the ones we're getting inthe bag, those are all dry
harvested. And that's that'sonly, like, 5% or something like

(20:05):
that of the cranberries that aregrown in The US.
Only, like, 5% are dry harvestedfor that that fresh market.

Chris (20:12):
Yeah. So the that wet harvest cranberry is really it's
for that processing market, andit was that attempt to expand
beyond Christmas andThanksgiving, I think, for the
cranberry growers. So we wantedto try to sell or offer
something at different times ofthe year. And they they would

(20:35):
routinely say, oh, we are juststuck, at least in The United
States, at Thanksgiving. We'rewe're kinda stuck a little bit
at at Christmas.
But then they started to marketthis globally, and they have
have had a lot more success.Now, Ken, you had already
mentioned their big buyers thatthey have over in Europe. Like,
what, Germany is one of thebiggest one over in Europe.

(20:58):
China's becoming very popular ofa buyer. I think growers are
getting a little nervous onceChina figures out that they can
grow this too.
They don't need to buy from us.But but that global market has
really expanded and and kind ofnecessitated this wet harvesting
method. And so but but, yes, dryharvest gives you that fresh

(21:20):
berry. It allows you to makeyour own cranberry sauce if you
wanted to. And I think it it ispretty neat to have just like
that that berry in hand.
And and they do keep. I thinkwhat the number Ira is they keep
for, like, three ish months,sometimes longer, the the dry
harvested berry. But the wetharvested one lasts maybe three

(21:45):
weeks until they're moldy andmushy and they're no good
anymore.

Ken (21:50):
You know, that wet harvest, you got that that wheel, that
bar spinning, and that's gonnabruise them and stuff. I'm sure
just sitting in water Mhmm.Probably doesn't help all that
much either. It's a

Chris (22:02):
vector for bacteria and fungus.

Ken (22:05):
But I will say speaking of processed cranberries, the best
cranberries, they have limes inthem.

Chris (22:14):
Ken just held up a can of cranberry sauce for those
listening.

Ken (22:17):
The jelly to cranberry sauce. Mhmm. Not the not the
chunky stuff. It's gotta besmooth.

Chris (22:23):
Yeah. Just don't like the ingredients

Ken (22:24):
and the amount of sugar in there.

Chris (22:29):
Yeah. You get your day's allotment of sugar in one
serving. And and, folks, oneserving is not the entire can.
We found that one out too as Kenwas reading the ingredients
before we started recording.

Ken (22:41):
Yes. For the particular can I have, it is six servings per
container, and one serving is48% of the the sugars per a
2,000 calorie diet? So keep thatin mind this Thanksgiving. Yes.

Chris (22:57):
Load me up on that cranberry jelly. I I will share
so we do have a nutritionwellness team, and so they do
have some recipes. And one ofthose recipes was for cranberry
pumpkin muffins. Actually, itsounds really good. So I think
these are gonna be somethingthat we're gonna try, and it

(23:17):
uses dried cranberries.
I think when you go to thestore, you'll find you'll find
dried cranberries. More oftenthan not, they're gonna be dried
sweetened cranberries. And sothese are cranberries with so
there's been sweetened, ofcourse, with sugar. I think this
particular one, though, it callsfor dried unsweetened

(23:38):
cranberries if you can findthat. If you can't, you can also
use fresh or frozen cranberriesas well.
So I'll throw that recipe downbelow.

Ken (23:47):
I don't know if I've ever seen unsweetened dried
cranberries. I don't know ifI've ever looked either. But

Chris (23:53):
I it's it's just a pucker in a bag. I mean, that that was
the thing that made driedcranberries so popular was back
in the day, people used to loveto eat raisins. Then the
cranberry growers were like,hey. We can do that too. We just
add a little bit of sugar.
And we have our, what, craisins?Is that what they're called?
Yeah. That was a big big thing.Like, one I guess, anything else

(24:21):
we wanna talk about with thewith the cranberry fruit?
I I did wonder because wheneveryou get the jelly or whenever
you, like, make the sauceitself, it's always red, bright
red. But when you look at theflesh, it's white, and it's
crispy like an apple. I justthought I just thought always
thought it was interesting thatthat red coloration doesn't go

(24:43):
it's just skin deep. It doesn'tgo through to the flesh. And
there's plenty of seeds in thesetwo, which don't really bother
me when I'm eating them.
I I don't know if they botheryou, Ken, but yeah.

Ken (24:56):
No. You don't really even notice them. I should say these
are related there in the samegenus as blueberries.

Chris (25:04):
Both bog type plants. I don't know.

Ken (25:08):
Yes. I'm not sure how that fits into anything. But

Chris (25:10):
I don't know. Is that the Arachaceae family? I I can't
remember. I used to know thesethings.

Ken (25:17):
It's the cinium. Don't have

Chris (25:18):
to know them. What is it?

Ken (25:20):
Vicinium is the genus. Vicinium? I don't know. Or
vaccine. I don't know how topronounce it.
V a c c I n I u m. Yeah. Eric ac.

Chris (25:30):
Eric a c a. I wanna know who Eric was that he got a whole
family of cool plants namedafter him. Okay. So we we did
talk about sort of, you know,the history, the background of
blueberry or blueberries.Thinking blueberries now, Ken.
Cranberries or the the the ananimal anatomical makeup.

(25:51):
Atomical. Is that a thing? Theanatomy of a cranberry where it
has the those hollow chambersthat allows it to float, works
great for wet harvesting. Theother thing is the in this the
book that we read, Ken, itreally seems to talk about the

(26:13):
boom and bust of the cranberrylife that, again, we are really
focused on a particular seasonwhere a lot of the cranberries
being used are used for, like, amonth out of the year, at least
in The US.
There's other byproducts thatare also used. So they're, you
know, food additives, trailmixes, things that you might

(26:34):
find cranberries in. But thebulk that we we think about for
for our cranberries isThanksgiving, really. And so if
you're a farmer, though, yourgoal is to get more yield at
maybe the same amount of land.Maybe you expand.
You but but the idea is you wantmore yield. Like, all farmers,

(26:57):
that's that's, like, what theydo. Like, that is their life's
goal. More yield, same amount ofland, try to do less inputs. But
when you are so constricted to asub such a seasonal product like
the cranberry, they really gethit hard in these boom and bust
years where cranberriessometimes are just flooding the

(27:18):
market.
The supply is just way beyondthe demand that that that
exists. And so this has beensomething that has been
happening, and there wasrecently a bust around the turn
of the century once we enteredthe twenty first century around,
like, nineteen ninety eight ish,2000, a big bust year for

(27:39):
cranberries, bust couple yearsfor cranberry growers. So, you
know, I I just think that thatis just more kind of inspiration
for these growers to processthese berries into other things
that can be used throughout theyear and shipped than across the
planet.

Ken (27:58):
Yeah. I know the parts I read too. Some of the the
growers she's talking with andfollowing along, a lot of them
have jobs outside the farm too.Mhmm. So you don't have
necessarily the acreage to dojust cranberries.
Right.

Chris (28:12):
Yeah. So I guess, Ken, maybe we should, like, go
through a year at a commercialcranberry farm and and see what
that is like. I don't know. Didyour section get much into,
like, this annual cycle of ofcranberry growing from the
farmer's perspective?

Ken (28:32):
Yeah. So they parts are already in there doing talking a
lot about planting. So they youknow, they were maybe renovating
a bed or something like that. Sowe won't talk about that and
then get into the the cycle.Sure.
So this so with these,basically, they'll go in and
then so they've got an old fieldthat you wanna plant. Some of

(28:54):
these can be a 100 plus yearsold. I don't know if the plants
themselves are actually a 100years old, but they've been they
were planted a 100 years ago,and they haven't replanted stuff
like that. So say they wanna goin, you know, yields are
declining. They wanna putsomething new in.
They'll go in. They'll level offthe ground so it's nice and
flat. Lot of times, they'llsquare off the fields so it's
easier to harvest and stuff. Andthey'll come in and put sand

(29:18):
down, couple inch layers ofsand. And some of the videos
I've seen that you basicallyhave this a lot of times,
they'll do cuttings of them orjust the they'll just have the
vines with roots on them, andthey'll just kinda go out and
sprinkle them on the field.
It's like they're spreading, youknow, feeding chickens, that
kind of that motion. Just likelook at it, they're almost like
spreading mulch process. Andthey're coming through, at least

(29:40):
one of the videos I watched,coming through with basically a
tractor that's got some smalldiscs on the front, and that's
pushing those plants into thesand. There's a roller bar
behind it to smooth everythingout. And there you go.
It's it's much more kinda timeconsuming than how I just
described it, but that'sbasically what they're They're

(30:02):
pushing those those those vinesinto the ground so they'll root
down it through that sand, intothe the soil beneath. So they're
gonna have to keep up with thewatering until it happens. And
they've got irrigation runningthrough there, for frost
protection, for irrigatingduring the, the growing season,
which we can get into. And a lotof it's becoming more and more

(30:23):
automated.

Chris (30:23):
I saw that it reminded me of so there's a technique for,
like, establishing turf grasswith, like, warm season grasses.
It's called sprigging orstolonizing, and it is
essentially that process. Youtake, like, the zoysia grass.
You just basically tear tear upa whole thing of zoysia grass,

(30:44):
and then you just spread it outon a prepared soil surface. And
you could, like, put it intrenches or you could you can
disc it in or you could topdress with with compost or
something, but that is almostthe exact same thing that
they're doing here.
In my head, I was kind ofthinking like, oh, well, they
must have, like, people outthere planting individual

(31:05):
plants. Nope. They are justscattering plant debris, plant
vines on the ground, and lettingthem root themselves into this
prepared sand bed. That waspretty neat. And you mentioned,
like, the squared off fields.
It's like a giant sandvolleyball pit for for giants.
There's just this big, long looklike they're bigger than

(31:28):
football fields. Maybe I don'tknow. I I didn't get any
dimensions on them, but they'rejust very big sand fields.

Ken (31:38):
They will say one of the in this book, one of the people
they were she was talking with,I think they were doing they
were rooting the cuttings andthen putting them in the ground.
So I get the sense that a lot ofthe people are doing more like
the vines or they're theyhaven't the what you described,
the kind of the cut up things,and they're spreading that out.
And and these vines can get sixfeet long, something like that.

(31:59):
So they'll fill in that area.

Chris (32:02):
So if you like a lot of commercial growers, if you're
going to do the wet harvest, alot of them are gonna have,
like, an irrigation trenchsurrounding this field. So
you're sort of up here on alevee, you go down into this
irrigation trench, and thenyou're on then you come back up
onto this, plateau of what thethat field is. But where does

(32:23):
all that water come from thatthat they have to flood that
that bog with when they go toharvest? So one of the I I I
think it it neat thing, and thisis something that the cranberry
growers, they sort of like topromote, is that for every acre
of cranberries in production, ittakes seven acres of water

(32:44):
storage or sort of sort of likehabitat space, wetland space.
And so they say that cranberriescan contribute to increased
habitat around their farmsbecause they're at a ratio of
basically seven to one of, youknow, water storage area to

(33:05):
plant a cranberry field.
So that they I I think thatsounds like a pretty neat way to
go about growing a crop.

Ken (33:16):
Yeah. It's not wall to wall cranberries.

Chris (33:19):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the farms, they talk about
all of the wildlife on there andwhich is they said is good and
bad. You know?
It's The word sort. That'sright.

Ken (33:31):
So yeah. Yeah. So this is the spring. So there's a lot of
this planting that's takingplace in the spring. And then,
you know, we're watering to getthose plants established.
And and if this is a maturefield, you know, their watering
is needed, but think it waslike, lot of things about an
inch of water through rain orirrigation is what these plants
are gonna need. Then going intothe summer, we start seeing

(33:52):
flowering taking place. So it'searly June, you know, depending
on on where in the countryyou're at, but most of these are
more northern locales. So Junetime frame, again, we got those
those flowers that kinda looklike a crane. And then I've read
conflicting things on this.
Some thing places will say thatcranberries can't pollinate

(34:13):
themselves, but they're not veryefficient. Others saying they
can't pollinate themselves atall. So I don't know what the
truth is, but regardless,insects are gonna be important.
So a lot of, growers arebringing in, managed hives, so
honeybees. Some are bringingbumblebees.
And bumblebees are gonna be,much more efficient at

(34:35):
pollinating cranberries. Youknow, our native bumblebee
species, evolved with withcranberries and stuff, and
they'll do that buzzpollination, the sonication,
where they vibrate their bodies,vibrate the flowers, that
releases the pollen. It's gonnabe much more efficient than
honeybees, which don't do that,but honeybees kinda make up for
that in just sheer numbers. AndI and I've saw some stuff where

(34:58):
a lot of you got a lot of thesegrowers in those areas, those
those seven acres where you'renot growing cranberries, you're
putting in pollinator habitat.So you can get more of those,
not necessarily have to bringand manage these maybe quite so
much.

Chris (35:12):
The thing that I I read also was, especially up in
Wisconsin, where you do have alot of this habitat, they would
bring in these honeybee hives,and the the other plant that's
also blooming at the same timeas cranberries is buckthorn, non
native invasive species. And ithas a much you mentioned that

(35:32):
that that odd awkward shapedflower. Buckthorn has a very
easy flower for bees to accessthe the pollen nectar reward. So
they've the cranberry growersare saying, all of our bees that
honeybees that we're bringingin, they're going over and
pollinating the buckthorn.They're not pollinating the
cranberries.
So, yeah, I think that makes alot of sense to cultivate maybe

(35:55):
pollinator habitat that youwould have adjacent to your
property because they're gonnahave to control that the
invasive species anyway becausethey're they're competing now
for that pollination of yourcrop.

Ken (36:05):
Yeah. I did read some stuff about it. They gotta get the
timing right. This is moreMassachusetts, but I assume it'd
be other places too. And if youbring your hives in too early
and there's no flowers outthere, they're gonna find
something else, and they're notnecessarily gonna come back to
those cranberries because theydon't necessarily have a lot of
that nectar, some of thoseresources that that the bees
want.
So you gotta get the timingright. I think they were saying

(36:27):
about 5% of the flowers you got5% flowering. That's when you
wanna bring the hives in soyou're not

Chris (36:33):
Mhmm.

Ken (36:33):
Losing those bees to other places. So then after you you
get the pollination, we're gonnahave the the fruit starting to
develop, and they'll startgreen, and then they'll start
transitioning into white. Andthen late summer, we're getting
we're starting to get our ourshifting from green into that
red color that we are mostfamiliar with.

Chris (36:51):
And then the fun time, harvest, fall. So I guess this
sort of depends whether you'regoing to do a dry harvest or a
wet harvest. It did seem like alot of the organically grown
cranberries were doing dryharvest. And a lot of their
buyers were sort of those verybig organic markets like Whole

(37:15):
Foods and and and, you know,those popular chain stores that
that that sell that are knownfor selling organic products.
That takes a lot more labor.
But but so for if you're doingwet harvest, you're basically
going to keep getting started,was it, like, kinda late

(37:35):
September into October, and youwould begin flooding your field.
You run that that egg beatermachine that you did described,
Ken, and it essentially rakesthe vines, loosens the berries,
and they float because they gotthose chambers inside of them,

(37:56):
which also, I I guess, is thatwas the seed dispersal method
for the plant itself since it'skind of bitter. You know, it
wasn't relying necessarily onwildlife. It was relying more on
flowing water. Just that's kindof an interesting way to do it.
So there you go. Cranberry. Seeddispersal method, water. So the

(38:17):
the machine loosens the berries.They float.
And then the berries are thengathered either by by another
harvesting machine. You know,the Ken mentioned a lot of this
is becoming auto very automatedanymore. Or, you know, you see
people hand floating thesetowards an elevator at the
corner of that bog, which then,you know, pulls the cranberries

(38:41):
out, puts them on semi trucks,and and and moves them. So but I
think a lot of us, myselfincluded, when I thought of
cranberries being harvested, Ithink of that wet method with
people pushing these big longboards or plastic boards,
pushing them towards this partthis part of the the bog where

(39:02):
the machine takes it out, butthat's what I have in my head.

Ken (39:06):
Yeah. Those are the big floats that they're they're
dragging along. Yeah. They'vegot the basically, a big vacuum,
more or less, sucking them inYeah. Sucking them out into the
into the truck, we'll then whichwill then take them off to the
to the plant and stuff.
And for your dry harvest, youknow, you traditionally, that
was done basically with thewooden rakes. Think like a

(39:29):
hairbrush, like a pick. Give allthese all these small tines so
you can scoop that, and it's gota kind of a a scoop on the back
so you collect the berries. Justtake that, break that over the
plants. That's gonna the stemsand the leaves will pass through
there, pop off the berries, anddump them.
Nowadays, it's the machine kindalooks like a maybe a lawnmower
or a sod cutter, if you'refamiliar with those look like.

(39:51):
And it's kinda got the samething those times, and it's just
breaking those up, tossing theminto a bag or something like
that. And they'll take thosebags off, put a new bag on, and
keep going. So even the dryharvest has become mechanized,
and you don't need an an army ofpeople to go out and harvest my
hand like you would, you know,two hundred years ago.

Chris (40:13):
Yeah. They'd be on their hands and knees picking and
combing and yep. Yeah. And andso for the wet harvest, once
they they finish, they'vethey've vacuumed up all the the
cranberries off of the water.That field is then drained.
They filter that water, and theymove it on to the next bog in

(40:35):
their harvesting process. Andthat that's just the the cycle
then then continues untileverything's picked for that
year. But they're not done yet.There is more.

Ken (40:48):
Yeah. So they're moving in into the winter. So in December,
a lot times, the the fields willbe flooded. That's gonna keep
plants from desiccating, protectthem from really cold
temperatures because these areevergreen plants. They're gonna
retain their leaves.
So they'll flood those. A lot oftimes, that will freeze. In
their case, the ice is gonnainsulate them, protect them from

(41:08):
the those cold temperatures. Andthen one part that I'd you know,
I didn't know about this untilwe started looking into this is
they will go through and sandthe fields every three or four
years. So, basically, whatthey're gonna do a lot of times,
they're doing this when on ice.
So once the ice gets three orfour inches thick and they can
drive heavy machinery on there,more or less, they'll drop

(41:32):
anywhere from a half inch to aninch or so of sand on that ice.
Then when that melts, that'sgonna drop down onto the plants.
It can also be done, again, I'veseen videos, like, basically,
they're just blowing it ontothere, or they'll drive
machinery through, but they'llsand these fields every three or
four years. And that sand isgonna kinda smother the vines

(41:54):
and force them to grow up, andthat vertical growth is what's
gonna produce the fruit. So ifyou just let them grow on the on
the ground, you're not gonnahave as much fruit production.
The sanding is also gonna helpwith some pest management. If
you've got full year diseases,putting that sand down is gonna
bury that potentially. You know,there's minerals and stuff in

(42:17):
that sand so you can providingsome nutrients to the plants as
well. But then the, you know,the timing and and how much you
put on there is gonna becritical. Know?
I mentioned in the book, youknow, too early or too much or
too late and too little can havecan have some effects. So but
they are gonna do that. Andthat's, you know, that natural
process we, you know, talkedabout in 1812 when they noticed

(42:40):
those, that sand from the dunesbeing blown on the fields. So
this is a natural process thatwe're this process naturally
happens, and we're just doingit, you know, in a in a more
managed way nowadays. And then,you know, as as things start
start melting, you know, the thethey'll drain the fields.

(43:03):
And sometimes they will do alate flooding. Again, this can
help with pest management. Thisis not an every year thing. I
think it's what it's every everyfew years, every three years,
something like that. Maybethey'll do this.
But they will also set upirrigation. We get started into
to late winter and stuff when westart. Those plants are maybe
gonna start growing again,setting up irrigation so they

(43:26):
they can mist plants if we startgetting late frost. If you're
familiar with citrus down inFlorida, they'll do this for
strawberries in Florida. Theywill run irrigation.
And as water freezes, itreleases a little bit of heat.
It's kinda counterintuitive. Butas long as you keep adding that
water and it keeps freezing,it's gonna protect, you know,
those the buds and stuff onthose plants and prevent them

(43:48):
from getting killed. And so someplaces referenced that they may
run-in the irrigation twenty,thirty times a year in the
winter and spring in inMassachusetts and stuff to
protect from from these freezes.Because you you freeze out, you
lost your crop.
And in this book, they talkabout, you know, basically, it's
a a sixteen month growing cycle.So, like, your new buds are

(44:11):
forming while you got flowers onthe plants. So you you get a
real bad one. You could wipe outmaybe subsequent crops too
depending on when when thefreeze and stuff is. So frost
protection is a really big thingfor cranberry bogs.
And that's where the automationcomes in, where they've got
sensors. They can tell whentemperatures are getting too
low, they can kick that on, youknow, from their phone. They

(44:32):
don't have to go out at two,03:00 in the morning to to do
all this.

Chris (44:37):
Potentially losing two seasons worth of crop, that
sounds pretty scary. You know,because peach growers, they do
something similar when they getthese late frosts. They will
irrigate their trees with thatheat effect from the the ice
forming. But, you know, theyhave one year's crop they gotta
worry about right then, not twoyears. That would be, yeah, a

(44:58):
little bit more dicey.
Well, Ken, you've you've foundthis great book. You've got me
reading again. I've been lookinginto all these different
cranberry things. I now want togrow these. I wanna grow these
in my backyard.
I'm growing blueberries verysuccessfully, and I want to add

(45:20):
a family member from theblueberries. Maybe right maybe
I'll put them right right neareach other. And so yeah. Can I
do this in my backyard? Can Igrow cranberries?

Ken (45:34):
Yeah. You probably could. So, yeah, again, you're gonna be
depending on what your soil pHis like, you're gonna be
amending it because, again,they're like those acidic soils
was four and a half, five Mhmm.Somewhere in there. Four to four
four to 5.5 is is what theywant, and, you know, maybe the
soil is a little bit sandier.
So you found a few referenceswhere, you know, if you've got

(45:56):
let's say for most of Illinois,we're gonna have heavier soils.
You dig out eight inches. Someplaces will say put some kind of
plastic liner down and pokeholes in it. Again, help retain
some of that moisture. I'mthinking that if I were to try
this, I may just get one ofthose plastic preformed pod
liners.

Chris (46:13):
Mhmm.

Ken (46:13):
I don't know if they make nice square ones, but you may
may have a kidney shapedplanting of this. But I need
you're gonna put your peat moss,and they're saying four bales
per 50 square feet. They'regonna mix in bone meal, rock
phosphate, blood meal, Epsomsalts in with that to kinda get

(46:37):
some of your fertility in there.And then you put your your
plants in there, and then youcould top that with sand. But
you're gonna have to do somesoil amending.
Mhmm. Now we we did find one.Who is that from? Massachusetts
cranberries, so to make your ownbog in a cup. So they're with
this, they're doing a half inchlayer of clay at the bottom,

(47:01):
about a half inch layer ofgravel, three quarter inch layer
of peat or potting soil, andabout an inch of sand, and then
you put your cranberry cuttinginto that.
And that's kinda mimicking thosethose kettle bogs. You got the
gravelly and the new organicmatter on there. So with with
some amending, I I think we'rewe would have enough cold so

(47:24):
that they would get there sothey need that chilling time as
well to properly produce. So Ithink we would we would have the
right conditions to do it.

Chris (47:34):
Yeah. I'd I'd I'd I'd like to give it a try. So I
think I will. I think in aprevious show, I showed that the
pH of my soul in the backyard is5.5. So I I might be well on my
way to Yeah.
Growing further. Cranberries.Yeah. Yeah. Don't need to fight
the pH as much.

(47:55):
I I was thinking about, youknow, again, growing cranberries
in a yard or maybe folks inSouthern Illinois, whereas maybe
we get warmer winters. You know,how might that that relate? And
it is interesting to see the thethe diverse landscapes that
these cranberries grow ineverywhere from New England,

(48:16):
Wisconsin, which seems like theharshest of all the
environments, Wisconsin.Winters, I'm thinking about. But
then in Oregon, they they'llgrow throughout the North
Northeast or Northwest.
And on the South Coast OfOregon, the average summer
temperature is 59 degreesFahrenheit. That sounds amazing.

(48:38):
And then but their winteraverage temperature is 42
degrees Fahrenheit, and theystill grow cranberries out there
fairly successfully. It is alittle bit more windy out there.
But because you have a such alow growing crop, you can pretty
much build some kind ofwindbreak either out of plants,

(48:59):
trees, or structure to protectit from any excessively drying
winds.
And the the Oregon growers,they're usually four to six
weeks ahead of the Wisconsingrowers. So, you know, I'd I'd
say, folks, if you aren'tinterested and you're not sure
if your climate's quite right,maybe give it a try. I mean, the
Desert Southwest probably willstruggle. The Southeast US might

(49:25):
might be a little too warm forfor these guys. But, you know,
Southern Illinois folks, I'mthinking about you.
You know, maybe maybe give it atry. I I I lived there a long
time ago, it seems like now, andit got cold sometimes.

Ken (49:42):
I don't think you have to get they're chilling. It doesn't
have to get down below freezing.I think if you're in the forties
for a couple months, it shouldbe it should be okay. So I
haven't done an extensive amountof of research into this, but
just looking before the show alittle bit, trying to source
plant material may be a littledifficult. You need to make sure

(50:03):
if you're buying looking forcranberry plants, you're not
getting a viburnum.
You're actually getting the thevaccinium because there's a
cranberry bush viburnum. A lotof the stuff that's popping up
when you search cranberry plantsfor sale is viburnum. So double
check the plant descriptionbefore you buy something.

Chris (50:20):
That that gets in the really murky territory because
there's a European cranberryviburnum as well that can be
easily mistaken in a nursery.Actually, we had a restoration
project where they were hopingto plant American cranberry
viburnum, and the nursery soldthem the wrong one. And the

(50:43):
European one is quite aggressiveand difficult to kill. Might
even become invasive one day. Idon't know.
But it it was it was a nasty oneout there. So, yeah, I guess,
take a close close look. Thatthat that's only a better reason
for us can to go tour thesecranberry farms next fall and

(51:06):
talk to them, you know, grabsome cuttings from them or
something. All legally, allabove the table, of course.

Ken (51:14):
Yeah. I'm assuming you can grow from seed. I don't

Chris (51:16):
know Mhmm.

Ken (51:17):
How tricky that would be, but and I would it may take a
while because I know forcommercially when they're
putting new fields in, it'susually two or three years
before they're harvesting. So

Chris (51:27):
Yeah. The I in the chapter of the book I'm reading
right now, it's about hybriddevelopment. I mean, we're
talking anywhere from eight tofifteen years before, you know,
a hybrid gets discovered orcreated to it's in its first
field. So so it's a long time. Ithink probably because most

(51:49):
cranberry fields are beingplanted with asexual cuttings
out there from the mother plant.
I'm guessing that there'sprobably gonna be a lot of
variability in these seeds. It'sgonna be like planting a pumpkin
seed. Don't know what you'regonna get there in the next
year.

Ken (52:10):
You could have the next great

Chris (52:12):
You could. Cultivar. Right? You could have the most
bitter cranberry ever known everknown.

Ken (52:19):
Just have to wait a few years to find out. Yeah. Mhmm.
Yeah. I'm not sure if you'd haveto if you have to cold stratify

Chris (52:28):
or not. Still a lot more to learn. We could probably go
on for another hour, Ken, withall the stuff that we've gone
through. But but maybe we'll weshould cut it off here. I also
gotta figure out how am I gonnaflood my cranberries in the
winter because it's right by myhouse.
I don't wanna flood my house. So

Ken (52:48):
Pond liner.

Chris (52:49):
A pawn liner. There you go. Pond. There you go. I'll
have to raise the lip up alittle bit higher.

Ken (52:57):
I was get the skating rink.

Chris (53:00):
Oh, yeah. That would be nice. We don't get it doesn't
get that cold here anymore,though. Doesn't freeze like it
used to. So, anyway, yeah,that's a future me problem.
Well, that was a lot of greatinformation about cranberries,
and we'll have, you know, moreinfo down below. Ken, you wrote
a great blog article aboutcranberries also a few years

(53:22):
ago. So that I think that wassuper informative as well. So
definitely include that one inthere. So well, the Good Growing
podcast production of Universityof Illinois Extension edited
this week by Ken Johnson.
Ken, thank you for hanging outwith me sharing all of these
excellent cranberry resources.This is a great book, so I

(53:47):
appreciate it. Thank you.

Ken (53:48):
Yes. Thank you. Everybody go out and enjoy some
cranberries this Thanksgivingand December and throughout the
year. It doesn't have to be justthis time of year.

Chris (53:58):
Get your canned cranberries. I have all all year
long. The fresh ones might notbe all year. But, yeah, take
your cranberry, get your pieceof chocolate. I think this is
delicious.
This is my favorite thing ever.Although the the book did talk
about vodka and cranberries too,so maybe I'll try that after the

Ken (54:18):
show. Good growing after dark. That's right. And let's do
this again next week.

Chris (54:26):
Oh, we shall do this again next week. Oh my goodness.
It's the eating season. Well, Ilike to call it Thanksgiving is
coming up along with a coupleother events. So Ken and I,
we're gonna be off gallivantingaround the state of Illinois,
just just having fun, learning,and then eating turkey or

(54:46):
whatever bird you like to eat,Ken.
A hoofed animal. I don't know.So we're gonna have some garden
bites coming at you these nextcouple of weeks. So well,
listeners, thank you for doingwhat you do best, that is
listening. Or if you've watchedus on YouTube watching, and as
always, keep on growing.

(55:15):
Well, listen or blah blah blahblah blah Yeah. There we go.
That cranberry is getting to me.No vodka yet. Well, listeners,
thank you for doing what you dobest, and that is listening.
Or if you're watched us onYouTube watching, I said that
wrong.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 232 The Cranberry Story: Native Roots and Modern Agriculture | #Good Growing