August 22, 2024 • 51 mins
In this episode, Dr. Chinwe Williams, a highly regarded trauma therapist and author, shared her journey and the inspiration behind her work in trauma and anxiety therapy. We discussed the importance of social connection, resilience, and post-traumatic wisdom in healing. Dr. Williams highlighted the significance of validating emotions, focusing on holistic well-being, and the impact of stress on physical health. She also shared insights from her latest book, "Beyond the Spiral," which addresses anxiety and provides practical tools for managing mental health. Dr. Williams emphasized the interconnectedness of mind, body, and soul in addressing mental health challenges. The episode offers valuable insights and strategies for supporting mental health and well-being.
Stay connected to Dr. Chinwé Williams online:
Stay connected with us online:
Send feedback/questions to info@awalkinmystilettos.com
Submit guest suggestions HERE
Make a donation to keep the show going!
Podcast music produced by:
This episode is brought to you by Herbal Face Food.
Since early 2022, Makini has taken her skin back with this natural skincare routine.
It’s:
- Vegan
- Cruelty-free
- Synthetic Fragrance-free
- Paraben free
- Organic/Wildcrafted
- Handmade
- GMP free
- Ethically Sourced
It heals melasma, psoriasis, and acne scars, treats deep wrinkles, and clears up eczema on Makini's face.
Use promo code "Makini30" for 30% off ALL PLANT facial products.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I'm Makini Smith. After going through a divorce, my sister passing
away, experiencing narcissistic abuse and some
significant health scares, I realized through sharing my
story that I wasn't alone in my suffering. Suffering, subjective
distress generated by the experience of being out of
balance. In a deep dive to holistically heal mind,
(00:21):
body, and soul is where I discovered peace, clarity,
and connection. It is impossible to be truly wise
without some real-life hardship, and we cannot develop
post-traumatic wisdom without making it through, and most
importantly, through it together. Social
connection builds resilience, and resilience helps create
(00:44):
post-traumatic wisdom, and that wisdom leads to hope. hope
for you and others witnessing and participating in
your healing, and hope for your community. A
healthy community is a healing community, and a healing community is
full of hope because it has seen its own people weather,
survive, and thrive. Dr.
(01:23):
Chinwe Williams is a highly regarded trauma therapist, best-selling
author, trusted keynote speaker, and workshop facilitator. Knowledgeable,
competent, and warm, Dr. Chinwe is a board-certified and
dedicated mental health professional. She is
an authority on stress, anxiety, burnout, trauma
(01:44):
resolution, the intersection of faith, culture, and
mental health, young and young adult, and women's wellness.
So please welcome to the show Dr. Chinwe Williams.
Thanks so much for having me. I'm
(02:51):
Oh my goodness, this is a little embarrassing, but
I'm just going to go there, just to share a little bit of background.
So I am a child of West
African immigrants. My
parents were born and raised in Nigeria, which
is a country in West Africa. I was actually born
(03:12):
in Nigeria, came to the States when I was three years
old, along with my brother, my mom, my dad. My
dad had an awesome opportunity to do some
studying in France, and then he went to the United
States to complete a graduate program in French studies.
So we came from a
(03:35):
very wonderful, well-loved community.
I remember just lots of like family and friends and
cousins and support people around. I
remember that I saw pictures. I remember my mom has told stories. And
so we arrived to the States and
it was, you know, obviously culture shock and just a
(03:57):
completely different experience. And it was just a wonderful opportunity
for my dad, who grew up with not a whole lot of
family, all the bustling family members and
friends that I was referring to. were really on my mom's
side. And my dad grew up really, really poor, but had
a gift in languages. And so it was really, again, a
(04:21):
beautiful opportunity for him and ultimately for our
family. So I had education in
my blood. My mom, once she
got acclimated in the United States, it took a while because
she, again, came from just a very
community-centered experience. There
(04:43):
was a little bit of loneliness that she experienced, but both my
parents were very educated, intelligent. My
mom ended up being a Montessori teacher. My dad obviously
pursued his love for French as a language, became
a French professor. When I started to think about
my own career goals, just for anybody, any of
(05:06):
your listeners who have, you know, any friends
or if you have any familiarity with West
African culture, high level, I don't want to stereotype, but
certainly our culture, we
value education. Very, very, very
highly. And it was expected that I
(05:27):
would either be an educator like my parents, but my
parents were teachers. I would be going to medicine
or I would be an engineer. Those were pretty much the
options in medicine, either doctor or nurse or
an anesthesiologist. Okay. I was sort
of, you know, Not sure that I wanted to
do any of those things. So this is the embarrassing part.
(05:51):
I wanted to be an attorney who was also a fashion model.
Have zero idea where the fashion
model, I know that's not true. It's coming to me.
I was plucked into Charleston, South
Carolina, which for anybody that is
(06:12):
familiar with that area, especially when I was growing up, very,
very white. We were fortunate
to live in a middle class neighborhood. We
were middle class, lived in a decent neighborhood. I've always been
able to go to school. I was food secure. Thankfully,
I had all of my needs met. But I was a
(06:35):
really skinny Black girl with
the first name Chinwe. And
that just was very different at that time
in that city and in that area.
And I remember the thing that people would say to me was,
(06:56):
you're really tall and skinny. You
could be a model or something like that, you know. And I remember that
from a really, really young age. And I remember thinking, OK,
well, that's something. And of course, my parents would laugh
at that. Like, what? You're going to be an engineer, a
nurse, a doctor, or, you know, all of those things. And
(07:18):
so just as I got older, I
just developed a lot of empathy for just
what people were going through. I think
that was always probably within me as just part of my
makeup and my temperament. Certainly my parents were,
(07:39):
you know, understood what was happening in the, in the world
globally, having come from you know, a completely different
country, understood what was happening locally.
So we had conversations about life, about
pain, about suffering, about equity, about fairness.
And I, yeah, I think just growing up, the
(08:02):
combination of those conversations and just my high
level of empathy, I wanted to be a family
attorney. who helped kids and
helped families to sort of navigate difficult
things. And yes, I wanted
to be a fashion model as well. At
(08:25):
that time, like, a supermodel was like a big deal.
So I was like any other girl, especially my preteens and my
teenage years flipping through magazines, searching for someone that
looked like me. And there were a couple of models that stood out,
including Naomi Campbell. And I followed her career. And
my parents did take me to a couple of little things
(08:46):
that came locally for local modeling opportunities. But
that's not what I ended up doing. So, yeah, it
was that kind of a nice sort of, you know, walk
down memory lane. So thank you for that question. But you're welcome.
And yeah, and I don't know that anybody said you couldn't do
it, but I think I just became quickly aware that
(09:09):
I was much more academic than I was style conscious
and appearance conscious. And
no offense to anybody who is a fashion model today. It
was something that was exciting, and then I realized that I had other things that
(09:30):
I always love hearing what someone wanted to be and how
that either connects or doesn't connect to who they ended up
becoming as they, you know, tap into finding their true
self. And when you were talking
about you know, wanting to be a lawyer and
then also wanted to be in the fashion industry and be a model. I
(09:50):
was just thinking, it was just yesterday, I actually met someone who
is a attorney. And when I like
Googled what her practice was, it was for
But also like, I find, there's, um,
(10:13):
when, when we have immigrant parents, there's pressure
that comes with who they want us to be or
what their desires are for us in life. So,
you know, I, I wonder, was there any
pressures for you in terms of who were what your parents
wanted you to be versus what you truly wanted to
(10:36):
Oh, yes, yes. And I think just the cultural piece
is really salient as we, you know,
have this conversation because, you know, I on
my own figured out that becoming an
attorney, while absolutely there are opportunities to
do good, just for my personal
(10:59):
temperament and personality, felt too combative.
There was a lot of, you know, it just seemed very conflictual, even
as I was thinking back then, oh, I would help families. Well,
a lot of conflict in families, right? There's
a lot of drama, and I was actually a really shy kid
and teenager growing up, and I ran
(11:22):
the other way with any sort of, like, conflict. So it
was nice that I kind of figured that out on my own. But
I remember discovering that
I still wanted to help people and started researching, like,
what are the different ways to help people outside of being a
family attorney? And I
(11:45):
learned about being a counselor. But kind
of just to back things up a little bit, my parents, highly
educated, came from Nigeria. And
both my grandparents on my mom's side, both educators, really,
really bright. My grandmother's probably brilliant.
(12:06):
There was no word in the Igbo language.
So Igbo is our, they used to call it tribe,
our community's language. There was no word in
the Igbo language for therapist. So,
talking to my parents about this vocation
(12:26):
that I discovered and wanted to explore was
really challenging because they're like, come again? Is that like being
a doctor? I'm like, well, you know, no. You
know, they just had, there was no cultural awareness.
And to be frank, especially at that time and
still today, there's not even a cultural inclination for
(12:50):
many, many people in many different
African nations to talk to a stranger about
your problems. So having to navigate that
as a young person was quite challenging. And
my parents were actually pretty supportive
and loving. And my dad at one point tried to bribe me. He's like, why
(13:13):
don't you just stay here at the College of Charleston? That's
where my dad taught. I'll buy you a car and
you study education. I was like,
no, I need to go away. study this
thing called psychology. And so for a long time,
I mean, my, my dad knows psychology, my mom knows psychology, but
(13:37):
as, um, kind of, it wasn't the dream that they
had, um, for me as their child to, to
So I, I guess over the last, I'm going to say six years of
recording this podcast and all the phenomenal people that have come on
and shared their expertise and their journey, I found a commonality
that our pain births our purpose, you know, the, the, the
(14:02):
careers and professions that we choose to serve and
be helpful in had something to do with something that
we healed from or needed to heal from. So I'm
curious, what inspired you to become a trauma and
Oh, my goodness. So this is where I have to, and I, and
we had conversations, you know, just prior to going on
(14:24):
air about how personal
I really wanted to get. And I thank you for just giving
me permission to kind of think about that and, and, and share what
felt comfortable. So I think I'll keep it at a high level, because
I obviously want to be honest, without being
intrusive on someone else's story or sharing
(14:47):
something that, that isn't really for me to share. But
on a, at a high level, I had a family member who
struggled with, with their mental health pretty significantly. And
it did impact me as a child. This is a family member that
I loved and didn't
really understand what was preventing
(15:10):
them from showing up and being as present as
I would have liked and as present as I needed for
many, many years. this family
member, because again, there's no cultural inclination to
go to therapy in parts of
Africa at that time. And still today, it's just not
(15:30):
something that people openly talk about. There's still a lot of
stigma around mental health challenges.
So as a result of the stigma, this
beloved family member just did not get the
help that they so desperately needed. And even
as young as 10, 11, and 12 years old, I saw
(15:53):
that. And I am certain that
those experiences shaped me,
along with just, again, having sort of
a natural shy, very shy, very
reserved, but having just a natural
well of empathy for anybody who was struggling.
(16:16):
So I was that person in middle school and high school
where if you told me your secret, I kept it in
like a vault, right? And believe it or not, that was
noticed back then. And people would even say, Hey, like
I feel comfortable talking to you and I like it that you don't tell my
secrets. First of all, I was petrified. Like I'm like, Ooh, I'm
(16:37):
not telling nobody that. some of the things I heard. And
I was, you know, concerned and sometimes I would even follow
up, which I think, you know, thinking back now, just that
I think demonstrated a level of emotional maturity. Like,
are you okay? Did things work out at home? And
(16:57):
I'm sure that came from, McKinney, just what I
experienced within my own family, you know, just how
the, just the ripple effect. that mental health,
especially untreated, for far too
long, the ripple effect it has, not just on the
individual, but on other
(17:18):
family members, on their way of life, their even
career pursuits, because the person that I'm referring to, family
member, was really, really intelligent. So,
the Great
news is that this family member ultimately got support.
And what I learned, my dad actually shared this with me,
(17:40):
a lot of it came from my
studies and what I was able to kind
of share and say, Hey, like I wasn't a counselor, I was still in
school. at this point, but just say, have you looked into this? And
I'm learning about that and there's really no stigma and
everybody suffers in some way. And, and so that, yeah,
(18:01):
that was a significant part of what led me
Wow. Wow. Wow. Thank you for, for sharing that.
I, so in 2006 I was diagnosed with
anxiety and I had refused that diagnosis at
the time. I was, you know, I have
(18:22):
found very common in the Black community, whether it's
Africa or the Caribbean, anything to do with mental health is
considered a stigma. It's considered negative. And there, I
mean, there's some advancement now, but years
ago, it was like, no, there was no conversation about
it. Nobody wants to talk about it. So we put it under the rug. It's not happening. Or
(18:43):
they just disregard the person completely. But
over the years, the open conversations about mental health
and wellness has definitely opened up
and educated a lot of people, the awareness of it. So I would
love if you could share for those that are listening, if they know
someone struggling with anxiety or any
(19:05):
other mental health struggles, how they
Yeah, that's really, really good. Yeah, we
know. So let me just back up and share that my
focus on mental health and psychology, studying
psychology, ultimately led me to my very
(19:27):
first job, which was a, as a high school counselor. And
that was just honestly like a
dream, not because it was easy, but because I
started so young. And so that helped me to, I
think, be relatable to the young people that were going through a
lot of the same things. struggles that I remember going through, and
(19:49):
sometimes I was still going through. So it was such
a rewarding experience working with young people who were old
enough and mature enough to really share with
you not just what they're experiencing, but where they think the root of
that experience stemmed from.
(20:10):
So that was great. And
I tell people back then, I worked
with high schoolers who were experiencing depression, anxiety,
self-harm. I am a private
practice clinician today. So when I started, oh
my gosh, close to 18 years ago, what
(20:31):
I'm seeing now or what I saw then pales in
comparison to what I'm seeing now. High
rates of depression, anxiety, self-harm,
even suicidal thoughts and completion,
so for young people, but actually adults are
(20:52):
struggling as well. And we know that according
to the World Health Organization, so not just in the U.S.,
one in five adults have a
mental health diagnosis. They're struggling with some sort
of emotional or behavioral health challenge, such as depression,
trauma, alcohol abuse, substance abuse,
(21:16):
Insomnia is like on the rise, especially since
the global pandemic. And that's usually what gets people into
therapy. I just can't sleep. And then when you do more digging,
you realize that there are anxious thoughts that are at the
root of that and sometimes even past traumas. So
your question is an important one. Like, how do we support those
(21:39):
who are struggling with some form of mental health challenge?
I think the first thing is to normalize it.
So if you think about it for a second, that stat that I just shared, one in
five, one in five people are struggling with something that
rises to the level of a clinical mental health diagnosis. But,
McKinney, that doesn't even, that's high enough, but
(22:02):
that doesn't even speak to what we've gone through
as a globe in the past four years. and
just everyday issues such as separation, such
as stress having to care for a child or
care for an elderly parent, dealing with your own
levels of stress. Maybe it doesn't rise to the level of a
(22:24):
mental health diagnosis, but it still impacts your
life in some way. How many of us have experienced a significantly high
period of just, you know, high work
volume? that can impact us. Burnout is
real, right? Regardless of whatever industry you're in,
we've all experienced just, you know, when we hit
(22:46):
that wall, and we're like, Oh, my gosh, I'm running on fumes. So
all of those things, all of those life experiences, bullying,
moving, can impact our mental health. So we support people
by sharing with them, it's normal to struggle. It's
normal to struggle. It doesn't mean that you're a failure. It doesn't
(23:07):
mean that you're crazy, which is one of those things that cause stigma
around help-seeking, is that people think they can only seek
help when they are experiencing extreme reactions
or extreme symptoms or signs of mental health.
And that's just not at all true. It's actually better when
(23:28):
you're not in crisis. to seek support and to talk to
someone and gain tools. So that's No. 1, is
to normalize it. No. 2 is to validate.
And I talk a lot, I, my first book
was called Seen, and it's about healing despair
and anxiety and, and young people, kids and teens. So
(23:50):
it was written for the perspective of an adult, a
parent, an educator, a ministry leader who wants to
help a young person. So we talked about validation
in that book and we did live talks. When
I tell you people push back on this concept. You
want me to validate what? You want me to validate bad behavior? You
(24:10):
want me to validate that they're not getting out of bed before noon? You want me
to validate, you know, that their, you know, parents are
like, that their, you know, talk is being salty with me?
No, I will not. So it was kind of funny and
I always, as a therapist, bring it on. I want to hear your thoughts and feelings.
And then I also want to share with you that validation does not mean that
(24:31):
you are in agreement with the
way that someone is handling something, with the way that an
individual is responding, or it may not be the way
that you would respond at all. So validation does
not mean that you agree, it just means that
you are recognizing that whatever this individual is experiencing feels
(24:53):
real to them. You may not feel the
same way, given the same set of circumstances. You may not
respond in the same way, given the same situation. However,
we do not know what that person is
carrying, right? Like, walk a mile in my shoes, we've heard that saying.
If you walked a mile in their shoes, you may actually respond in the exact same
(25:15):
way, right? So just taking a beat and hearing
your child and validating that that experience
that they're having feels real to them. For parents, and
I've worked with teenagers for a long time, that was my very first job, the
minute you say to a child, you're not feeling that, it
is not only is it deeply invalidating, now people
(25:38):
will throw the term gaslighting, right? Not only is
it deeply invalidating, you could actually spur
or prompt even more symptoms, because young people
will be like, Well, I'm gonna show you. I'm really struggling. And
we know that adolescents, there can be a lot of impulsivity. Oftentimes,
(25:58):
I tell people, young people, Don't
take their lives necessarily because they have
depression as a diagnosis. It's the combination of
despair, loneliness, and impulsivity. So
we want to mitigate that as much as possible by
letting them know, okay, I'm listening, and I
(26:22):
can tell that this feels really, really hard
for you. And then the third piece is, how can I help?
And so just at a high level, getting that young person to
support. It could be a therapist. It doesn't have to
be, just depending on kind of where they are. Some people just
need someone to listen to them. Some people need someone to, again,
(26:43):
validate. Some people need someone to help them to
reframe, to provide context and
perspective, which is a lot of what I do as a therapist. Not
everybody has money for therapy. First of
all, therapy wait lists are super long. Then
there are accessibility issues to finding a therapist. Not
(27:04):
everybody has insurance. Not everybody could afford a therapist. So
we want to empower caring
adults. sisters, neighbors, aunties, educators,
ministry leaders, grandparents. Grandparents have a lot of time, usually.
You know, bring that warm blanket over. We
(27:26):
wrote the book for young people, but really anybody, any
adult, your partner, your spouse, your friend who's
struggling, they need a listening ear. They need to
know that they're not alone. They need to not feel crazy, and
Wow, there's so much that you said there that I want to unpack. I don't even know if
(27:48):
we have enough time. So,
okay, a couple of important things that I heard. And
some of them are just, for me personally, they're just affirming
things that I know, but I want the listeners to take note.
One, we don't get to tell people how to feel, right? Like
(28:09):
you said, you can validate someone's feelings. It doesn't
necessarily mean that you agree with it. I loved, loved, loved when
you said that. Because, like
you said, people have a tendency, especially online these
days, to tell people how they should and shouldn't feel. But
we don't know, like you said, that person's circumstance. We don't know their paradigm.
(28:31):
We don't know their background. We don't know their morals, their environment.
They're probably certainly not, no trauma. Try
Exactly. Exactly. Very, very important. Um,
also you spoke about, um, teens
(28:52):
and you know, I feel like, so, okay,
I'm 44 and I have three kids, 26, 22 and 18. And, There
was a point, I'm going to say probably 10 years ago, before I had
the understanding, where it was like, you know, I
didn't understand what their stresses were about. I'm like, I
(29:13):
have done my very best to give you a life that I
couldn't have possibly dreamed of. What problems do
you have? But now... with understanding and
awareness. This generation, the struggles that
they have, the weight that they carry with
so many things that we may not necessarily even understand,
(29:35):
like just even social media, for example, all the information that
they consume in one day compared to what we had to
consume in our lifetime. So now having that understanding where
we don't know the weight that they're carrying. being
a support system, being,
(29:57):
you know, someone showing them empathy, all of the things that they
need. So just because we don't understand what they're going through
doesn't mean that they're not going through some heavy stuff. You
also spoke to, you know, therapy isn't
accessible to everyone, whether
it be the wait list, whether it be financing, whether it be not having
(30:22):
coverage or any of those things. And especially I
know for a fact that there are not as many black
therapists out there. So having culturally
relevant therapy, I think it's important that you spoke
to that because I think it was just yesterday I saw someone on threads, she
was a black therapist, but you could tell she was doing
(30:45):
a bit of a rant. I had to turn off my
phone and put it down for a second because I don't like to engage in
negativity on social media. But she was basically saying
that she's tired of seeing podcasts being
used as therapy and people should just
get a therapist. And
(31:06):
I thought to myself, that's a little privileged. That's
a little privileged. Because I know as someone who
goes to therapy every week, I spend almost $1,000 on therapy
a month. Not everybody has that. Not everybody has access
to that. Like, like you said, wait lists, all of those different things.
So If people are doing
(31:29):
what they can with what they have access to, then that's
a start. If they are getting support by listening to
conversations with experts like yourself that are
sharing tools, then it's a start. It's a
start. There are people out there that are afraid to even go to therapy, and I
know many of them, because they're afraid of what they may find out
(31:49):
or what they have to deal with emotionally. So this is a
great place to start if you don't have the finances or
the other resources for therapy. There
You're doing a great job. Like, I was like, how did you remember all of that? Cause
I, you know, your listeners may not see the video, but I,
you're, you were like looking at me and tracking me.
(32:13):
So you did a great job sort of going off the
list of points and you make an excellent, excellent point.
And that is a very, very privileged
perspective. So I, I have to say
that part of my mission You
know, people ask me, because I teach, I have a therapy practice, and
(32:34):
that certainly keeps me busy enough, but I
love coming on podcasts. I love sharing information about
mental health, what it is, what it isn't, what helps it,
what hurts it, because of the fact
that there still is a stigma, particularly in
communities of color, But even just throughout
(32:58):
all communities, there's a stigma around
what it means to struggle with one's mental health and
what it means to get help. And there's so many people, like
you heard in my story, a family member, where individuals
are either minimizing or ignoring the
hurt and the pain that they experience. And this
(33:22):
is just a PSA. Hurt and pain that's
stuffed always rises to the surface. It
does not die. The true condition of our
hearts and the true, the true condition
of our minds will eventually come to the
surface. And here's what happens. We just don't bleed on ourselves. Right?
(33:46):
Oftentimes, we bleed in a way that causes hurt and
pain to other people. And if anybody wants
to work on that, why wouldn't we make it easy
for them? And therapy isn't always the
easy option, nor, by the way, is it always the
necessary option, right? It's about community support.
(34:07):
There are so many things that we can talk about that can support an
individual's mental health and wellbeing that
Yes, absolutely. And to even
add to what you're saying, when you were saying earlier that
there wasn't a word in your language for therapy, and
(34:29):
I remember reading, what is
the book called? What Happened to You? Oprah
and another Dr. Bruce Perry. Yes, there
we go. And there's a part in there where
they were talking about how in some cultures, and
I think they specifically pointed out Indigenous cultures and African cultures,
(34:50):
that they didn't have therapy, but it was the sense of
community that helped people to heal. It
was a lot of the dancing in the cultures that
helped release a lot of the trapped emotions. Like they were listing all
of the things. It was music and sound. all
of the other beautiful tools and practices that are natural
(35:12):
to those cultures that are equivalent to,
you know, therapy and that have helped people just as much as therapy.
So there, there may not be a language for it, but there's definitely, you
know, the, the tools and the, um, I guess all
of the benefits, um, there, um,
there was something else I was going to say until we can't remember now. You're doing
(35:35):
great. So
I would love if you could share with the listeners about
your latest book, Beyond the Spiral, and what inspired
Oh, thanks so much for that opportunity. Yes, so
our latest book is called Beyond
(35:55):
the Spiral and the subtitle I love, Why
You Shouldn't Believe Everything Anxiety Tells You
Because Anxiety Tends to Lie. to us.
So this book was written specifically for young
adults and adolescents, because coming out
of the pandemic, the research, the data showed us that
(36:16):
those were the two groups of individuals who
were suffering the most. And anxiety
quickly overtook depression as the
No. 1 mental health condition, not just in
the United States, but in the world. So
it really made sense to have a resource for young
(36:37):
people that was filled with clinical
principles, but in a very simple and practical way.
to, you know, help people to just, you know, figure
out how to support themselves and
support other people in those moments of, of struggle
that we all experience from time to time. So what
(36:59):
we've learned, and it's interesting, I learned it in a really fun
way. What we've learned is, even though the audience was
really focused on adolescents and young adults, is
that adults were picking this up. And if you have, and I know you have
a teenager, if those of you who are listening, if
you have, you know, teenagers or young adults, the last thing
(37:20):
they want to do is to read a book about their anxiety, right? So
we would just share with parents, even on podcasts, just
read a chapter to them. you know, at the dinner table or
at night if you have like a younger child. And this is the fun
thing that I learned. I was in doing a
session, a telehealth session, and my client, who
(37:42):
I did not tell her I wrote a second book, I probably should
have, I'm a terrible marketer, but I did
it. And she was, you know, to be fair, she was an adult woman and we
had marketed this book toward young people. She
shared with me, she was like, I didn't know that you wrote a book. She
was like, somebody gave me the book, not knowing that you were my
(38:02):
therapist. She was like, I was reading it to my husband
at night because he struggles with significant anxiety. And
she said, I think it's helping. So just, I
know I'm not here to sell a book, but just to share that even though the
book was targeted for young people, it is helpful
for anyone who struggles with anxiety specifically, or
(38:25):
just a general mental health struggle where you're just not
feeling balanced. So, in
the book, we talk about the different lies anxiety tells you,
and we talk about just the different ways of addressing those
lies. Anxiety tells us that we're not safe. Anxiety
tells us that we should just ignore it, right? We should push it down, and
(38:46):
we kind of combat those myths or those lies with
evidence-based principles and then very specific
strategies. One of the lies is that anxiety tells
us, I have no control, right? This feels insurmountable. It
feels like it's overwhelming me. It's overtaking me.
That is a lie. The feeling is true, right?
(39:08):
We always validate what people's experiences are.
But, you know, once you read the book, or once you walk along
somebody who's there to support you, you can learn tools
that will help you to feel more and more in
control. And so some of the tools we talk about In
the book, and again, this is
(39:30):
a great supplement for someone who, or adjunct
for someone who's in therapy. But if you can't afford therapy,
or you're not sure that you need a therapist, these tools can really help
you. And some of them are so simple. We talk about just the
holistic nature of anxiety.
We just don't think worry-filled thoughts. We
(39:53):
feel anxiety. Not just, you know, as part
of our emotions, we feel hesitancy, we feel reluctance, we
feel fear, we feel trepidation, but you actually
feel anxiety and even depression in
your body. Many of us have experienced those moments where
we can't get out of bed, it feels like there's something sitting on our chest,
(40:14):
or we feel really hot. I had a client early this morning, She
shared that her anxiety got so bad last week that she was
vomiting and feeling nauseated and there's something precipitated that,
but that wasn't an everyday occurrence. She was like, I've never had
the physical manifestation of anxiety like I did last week.
So we ask our clients, and we
(40:38):
ask the people that we care about, just some simple questions
about what they're doing to take care of themselves holistically.
It's not just about thinking something different. That's
part of it. But it's also about looking at your
lifestyle. Because I always say that anxiety is
there to give us information, just like any
(40:59):
other emotion. And you want to ask yourself, What
is my anxiety or my distress signaling?
Are you having, here's some questions, some of which we have in the book. Are you
having any challenges in your relationships? Are
you feeling a sense of overwhelm? Are
(41:20):
you feeling like you're behind, right? How many of us feel that way
when life just, life demands, you know, just feels like it's
way too much? And then really simple foundational things
that we want. people to focus on, are
you getting enough sleep? Right? As adults, we really should
be getting 8 to 10 hours of sleep. How
(41:41):
many of us can say that we're getting that, right? I know I feel
so much better if it's not
anxiety. Sometimes I feel less anxious. I feel more
alert. I feel more able to connect.
I feel more resourceful when I go to bed at
10 o'clock versus midnight. I'm
(42:03):
gonna wake up when I wake up, right? But if I wake up, I
usually wake up around 6.30 nowadays. If I go
to bed at midnight or 1 and
then pop up at 6.30, that's not enough rest.
food to feel like you could tackle your day. Anxiety
has been linked scientifically to certain
(42:26):
foods. So asking yourself, you
know, how many cups of coffee or energy drinks?
They're sneaky things that we, you know, didn't
realize have caffeine and sugar and what that does
to your body. So just, you know, just one aspect of
what's in the book. Attending to what your
(42:48):
body is telling you through these mental health symptoms can
be really, really helpful because anxiety specifically is manifested
in the body first. But people are usually wondering,
Yeah. Wow. I love that
you even explained it that way. And I've shared this on
(43:10):
the podcast quite a few times. So at the time when
I was diagnosed with anxiety in 2006, I was also
diagnosed with fibromyalgia. And they say it's like chronic muscle pain
within the body. And I know after doing all the
research, doctors just label that on anyone where they can't
figure it out when all the other health tests show that you're perfectly healthy.
(43:32):
And as I've been doing all of my studies and
my awareness on mindset and on holistic
healing and all these different things, it was realizing
that it wasn't the fibromyalgia causing depression and anxiety. It
was the depression and anxiety causing all the physical symptoms within
my body. And when I was able to pay
(43:55):
attention to my thoughts, feelings, and my actions, which included
coming out of toxic relationships, which included unhealthy eating,
which included not getting enough sleep, all those things, I no longer
had any fibromyalgia flare-ups. Yeah. So
Yes. Yes, Williams. I love that you share that. That's
(44:17):
so important. I'm glad that you've already shared that with your listeners. It's
an important reminder that, you know, our mind, our
body, our soul, you know, our connected,
interconnected in really amazing and powerful ways.
And even just thinking about something that
can be upsetting can set off your GI tract, your
(44:40):
gastrointestinal system, right? And just
again, one of the lies that anxiety tells us is that we
should just ignore it. Or when we go
to a doctor like you did and they can't figure it out and
then they just say one thing, but we know that something is sort of lingering.
our emotions will give us clues.
(45:01):
We want to follow those breadcrumbs. Feelings
get a bad rap in our society. Our
society prefers, to
a much higher level, prefers thinking and
cognitive processes. So we then dismiss the way that
we feel. And so we should never
(45:24):
ignore our emotions, right? Because we think that
if we do, it'll go away. Again, ignoring something
is rarely the solution. And we know, I think there's a study by Harvard,
the Harvard group in public health and also the University of
Rochester, they showed that people who bottled up their
(45:44):
emotions actually increased their risk of being
diagnosed with cancer by 70%. So what
you're saying is really, really, really important. It's OK
to be angry, right? It's OK to be sad. We don't want our
emotions to always drive the bus, but we want
to attend to our emotions and say, OK, you're
(46:04):
showing up for a reason. So what do I need to
I love that. There's a book that I read a few
years ago called Permission to Feel, and it just talks about that our feelings
are data, right? And then it's
the emotion code, definitely helps to understand, you
(46:25):
know, our feelings, how they affect us physically. But
sharing that stat about how stress is
connected to cancer was very important, because my therapist actually told me that
recently, one of the main causes of cancer is stress. We
are all stressed out right now, so we need to
Solutions, yeah. And again, community, getting out
(46:48):
in nature, focusing outward,
right? So even though, and this is really interesting, even though
we're saying focus on our emotions or give yourself
permission to feel, Put a timetable on
that, you know what I mean? I'll be very honest with
you and a lot of therapists don't say this. It actually is unhelpful
(47:11):
to ruminate and perseverate on negative
emotions for too long. So when you feel
what you feel, but get it out, talk about it, journal it,
express it, and then focus on how you
can contribute to the well-being of someone else
in your life or in your community. That is a wonderful way
(47:33):
of really boosting your mental health along with gratitude. We
don't go there first. We don't tell people, oh, you should be thankful for all these things
that you have. I tell parents all the time. That's
not where we're going. We don't want to bypass emotions. We
want to validate emotions. And if you're the person that's
struggling, please remember the benefit of feeling
(47:58):
Yes. Thank you so much, Dr. Chinwe, for your
gems, for your expertise, for all the things that you've
shared with us today. I know the listeners will definitely, definitely, definitely
get so much value from this episode. I know I will definitely
Oh, my gosh, I feel like you're so well-versed yourself. The
(48:21):
listeners are so fortunate to, to have you. And to
your point, a lot of times it's, it's what we go through that really informs
what we end up sort of doing and how we help people. So
Thank you, thank you so much. I would love if you could tell the listeners
where they could stay connected with you, where they can learn more from you
(48:43):
Well, thank you so much. So my website is probably the
best place and it's drchenwaywilliams.com, C-H-I-N-W-E,
Williams is easier to spell. And if you are
on social media, I'm most active on Instagram and that's
where I share mental health tools and tips and also sometimes
(49:03):
just, you know, what my family, what we're up to, to kind of boost our,
our mental health. So that's Dr. Chinwe
Williams. That's my IG handle, Dr. period Chinwe Williams.
Perfect. I will definitely have all the links to connect with you
in the details section of the episode, so they can just click and connect
directly. Beautiful. Thank you
(49:25):
so much for your time. Again, I do not take your time lightly. I
do appreciate you co-creating this experience with me for
the listeners. And if there is anything that I
could do to assist your community or to help you with, I'd
Oh, you're wonderful. This has been like such a joy. Thanks
so much. Thank you for what you do. And I hope you have a wonderful
(49:49):
Thank you. To all you healers out there, until next time,
subscribe on all platforms. Don't forget to rate the show and leave us a
review on Apple podcast. And I just want to thank each and
every one of you that continues to listen each week to help the show rank
globally in the top 1.5% of most popular podcasts out there. Feel
free to join the community of healers. You can sign up for
(50:11):
our weekly newsletter at awakendmystilettos.com. I
want to challenge you to share your aha moments
from this episode. Feel free to screenshot this week's episode and
you can tag Dr. Chinway at dr.chinwaywilliams. d
r dot c h i n w
(50:34):
e w i l l i a m
s you can tag myself at the real mckinney smith a
healthy community is a healing community and a healing community is
full of hope because it has seen its own people weather
survive and thrive so let's continue to heal her
I'm Makini Smith. After going through a divorce, my sister passing
away, experiencing narcissistic abuse and some
significant health scares, I realized through sharing my
story that I wasn't alone in my suffering. Suffering, subjective
distress generated by the experience of being out of
balance. In a deep dive to holistically heal mind,
(00:21):
body, and soul is where I discovered peace, clarity,
and connection. It is impossible to be truly wise
without some real-life hardship, and we cannot develop
post-traumatic wisdom without making it through, and most
importantly, through it together. Social
connection builds resilience, and resilience helps create
(00:44):
post-traumatic wisdom, and that wisdom leads to hope. hope
for you and others witnessing and participating in
your healing, and hope for your community. A
healthy community is a healing community, and a healing community is
full of hope because it has seen its own people weather,
survive, and thrive. Dr.
(01:23):
Chinwe Williams is a highly regarded trauma therapist, best-selling
author, trusted keynote speaker, and workshop facilitator. Knowledgeable,
competent, and warm, Dr. Chinwe is a board-certified and
dedicated mental health professional. She is
an authority on stress, anxiety, burnout, trauma
(01:44):
resolution, the intersection of faith, culture, and
mental health, young and young adult, and women's wellness.
So please welcome to the show Dr. Chinwe Williams.
Thanks so much for having me. I'm
(02:51):
Oh my goodness, this is a little embarrassing, but
I'm just going to go there, just to share a little bit of background.
So I am a child of West
African immigrants. My
parents were born and raised in Nigeria, which
is a country in West Africa. I was actually born
(03:12):
in Nigeria, came to the States when I was three years
old, along with my brother, my mom, my dad. My
dad had an awesome opportunity to do some
studying in France, and then he went to the United
States to complete a graduate program in French studies.
So we came from a
(03:35):
very wonderful, well-loved community.
I remember just lots of like family and friends and
cousins and support people around. I
remember that I saw pictures. I remember my mom has told stories. And
so we arrived to the States and
it was, you know, obviously culture shock and just a
(03:57):
completely different experience. And it was just a wonderful opportunity
for my dad, who grew up with not a whole lot of
family, all the bustling family members and
friends that I was referring to. were really on my mom's
side. And my dad grew up really, really poor, but had
a gift in languages. And so it was really, again, a
(04:21):
beautiful opportunity for him and ultimately for our
family. So I had education in
my blood. My mom, once she
got acclimated in the United States, it took a while because
she, again, came from just a very
community-centered experience. There
(04:43):
was a little bit of loneliness that she experienced, but both my
parents were very educated, intelligent. My
mom ended up being a Montessori teacher. My dad obviously
pursued his love for French as a language, became
a French professor. When I started to think about
my own career goals, just for anybody, any of
(05:06):
your listeners who have, you know, any friends
or if you have any familiarity with West
African culture, high level, I don't want to stereotype, but
certainly our culture, we
value education. Very, very, very
highly. And it was expected that I
(05:27):
would either be an educator like my parents, but my
parents were teachers. I would be going to medicine
or I would be an engineer. Those were pretty much the
options in medicine, either doctor or nurse or
an anesthesiologist. Okay. I was sort
of, you know, Not sure that I wanted to
do any of those things. So this is the embarrassing part.
(05:51):
I wanted to be an attorney who was also a fashion model.
Have zero idea where the fashion
model, I know that's not true. It's coming to me.
I was plucked into Charleston, South
Carolina, which for anybody that is
(06:12):
familiar with that area, especially when I was growing up, very,
very white. We were fortunate
to live in a middle class neighborhood. We
were middle class, lived in a decent neighborhood. I've always been
able to go to school. I was food secure. Thankfully,
I had all of my needs met. But I was a
(06:35):
really skinny Black girl with
the first name Chinwe. And
that just was very different at that time
in that city and in that area.
And I remember the thing that people would say to me was,
(06:56):
you're really tall and skinny. You
could be a model or something like that, you know. And I remember that
from a really, really young age. And I remember thinking, OK,
well, that's something. And of course, my parents would laugh
at that. Like, what? You're going to be an engineer, a
nurse, a doctor, or, you know, all of those things. And
(07:18):
so just as I got older, I
just developed a lot of empathy for just
what people were going through. I think
that was always probably within me as just part of my
makeup and my temperament. Certainly my parents were,
(07:39):
you know, understood what was happening in the, in the world
globally, having come from you know, a completely different
country, understood what was happening locally.
So we had conversations about life, about
pain, about suffering, about equity, about fairness.
And I, yeah, I think just growing up, the
(08:02):
combination of those conversations and just my high
level of empathy, I wanted to be a family
attorney. who helped kids and
helped families to sort of navigate difficult
things. And yes, I wanted
to be a fashion model as well. At
(08:25):
that time, like, a supermodel was like a big deal.
So I was like any other girl, especially my preteens and my
teenage years flipping through magazines, searching for someone that
looked like me. And there were a couple of models that stood out,
including Naomi Campbell. And I followed her career. And
my parents did take me to a couple of little things
(08:46):
that came locally for local modeling opportunities. But
that's not what I ended up doing. So, yeah, it
was that kind of a nice sort of, you know, walk
down memory lane. So thank you for that question. But you're welcome.
And yeah, and I don't know that anybody said you couldn't do
it, but I think I just became quickly aware that
(09:09):
I was much more academic than I was style conscious
and appearance conscious. And
no offense to anybody who is a fashion model today. It
was something that was exciting, and then I realized that I had other things that
(09:30):
I always love hearing what someone wanted to be and how
that either connects or doesn't connect to who they ended up
becoming as they, you know, tap into finding their true
self. And when you were talking
about you know, wanting to be a lawyer and
then also wanted to be in the fashion industry and be a model. I
(09:50):
was just thinking, it was just yesterday, I actually met someone who
is a attorney. And when I like
Googled what her practice was, it was for
But also like, I find, there's, um,
(10:13):
when, when we have immigrant parents, there's pressure
that comes with who they want us to be or
what their desires are for us in life. So,
you know, I, I wonder, was there any
pressures for you in terms of who were what your parents
wanted you to be versus what you truly wanted to
(10:36):
Oh, yes, yes. And I think just the cultural piece
is really salient as we, you know,
have this conversation because, you know, I on
my own figured out that becoming an
attorney, while absolutely there are opportunities to
do good, just for my personal
(10:59):
temperament and personality, felt too combative.
There was a lot of, you know, it just seemed very conflictual, even
as I was thinking back then, oh, I would help families. Well,
a lot of conflict in families, right? There's
a lot of drama, and I was actually a really shy kid
and teenager growing up, and I ran
(11:22):
the other way with any sort of, like, conflict. So it
was nice that I kind of figured that out on my own. But
I remember discovering that
I still wanted to help people and started researching, like,
what are the different ways to help people outside of being a
family attorney? And I
(11:45):
learned about being a counselor. But kind
of just to back things up a little bit, my parents, highly
educated, came from Nigeria. And
both my grandparents on my mom's side, both educators, really,
really bright. My grandmother's probably brilliant.
(12:06):
There was no word in the Igbo language.
So Igbo is our, they used to call it tribe,
our community's language. There was no word in
the Igbo language for therapist. So,
talking to my parents about this vocation
(12:26):
that I discovered and wanted to explore was
really challenging because they're like, come again? Is that like being
a doctor? I'm like, well, you know, no. You
know, they just had, there was no cultural awareness.
And to be frank, especially at that time and
still today, there's not even a cultural inclination for
(12:50):
many, many people in many different
African nations to talk to a stranger about
your problems. So having to navigate that
as a young person was quite challenging. And
my parents were actually pretty supportive
and loving. And my dad at one point tried to bribe me. He's like, why
(13:13):
don't you just stay here at the College of Charleston? That's
where my dad taught. I'll buy you a car and
you study education. I was like,
no, I need to go away. study this
thing called psychology. And so for a long time,
I mean, my, my dad knows psychology, my mom knows psychology, but
(13:37):
as, um, kind of, it wasn't the dream that they
had, um, for me as their child to, to
So I, I guess over the last, I'm going to say six years of
recording this podcast and all the phenomenal people that have come on
and shared their expertise and their journey, I found a commonality
that our pain births our purpose, you know, the, the, the
(14:02):
careers and professions that we choose to serve and
be helpful in had something to do with something that
we healed from or needed to heal from. So I'm
curious, what inspired you to become a trauma and
Oh, my goodness. So this is where I have to, and I, and
we had conversations, you know, just prior to going on
(14:24):
air about how personal
I really wanted to get. And I thank you for just giving
me permission to kind of think about that and, and, and share what
felt comfortable. So I think I'll keep it at a high level, because
I obviously want to be honest, without being
intrusive on someone else's story or sharing
(14:47):
something that, that isn't really for me to share. But
on a, at a high level, I had a family member who
struggled with, with their mental health pretty significantly. And
it did impact me as a child. This is a family member that
I loved and didn't
really understand what was preventing
(15:10):
them from showing up and being as present as
I would have liked and as present as I needed for
many, many years. this family
member, because again, there's no cultural inclination to
go to therapy in parts of
Africa at that time. And still today, it's just not
(15:30):
something that people openly talk about. There's still a lot of
stigma around mental health challenges.
So as a result of the stigma, this
beloved family member just did not get the
help that they so desperately needed. And even
as young as 10, 11, and 12 years old, I saw
(15:53):
that. And I am certain that
those experiences shaped me,
along with just, again, having sort of
a natural shy, very shy, very
reserved, but having just a natural
well of empathy for anybody who was struggling.
(16:16):
So I was that person in middle school and high school
where if you told me your secret, I kept it in
like a vault, right? And believe it or not, that was
noticed back then. And people would even say, Hey, like
I feel comfortable talking to you and I like it that you don't tell my
secrets. First of all, I was petrified. Like I'm like, Ooh, I'm
(16:37):
not telling nobody that. some of the things I heard. And
I was, you know, concerned and sometimes I would even follow
up, which I think, you know, thinking back now, just that
I think demonstrated a level of emotional maturity. Like,
are you okay? Did things work out at home? And
(16:57):
I'm sure that came from, McKinney, just what I
experienced within my own family, you know, just how
the, just the ripple effect. that mental health,
especially untreated, for far too
long, the ripple effect it has, not just on the
individual, but on other
(17:18):
family members, on their way of life, their even
career pursuits, because the person that I'm referring to, family
member, was really, really intelligent. So,
the Great
news is that this family member ultimately got support.
And what I learned, my dad actually shared this with me,
(17:40):
a lot of it came from my
studies and what I was able to kind
of share and say, Hey, like I wasn't a counselor, I was still in
school. at this point, but just say, have you looked into this? And
I'm learning about that and there's really no stigma and
everybody suffers in some way. And, and so that, yeah,
(18:01):
that was a significant part of what led me
Wow. Wow. Wow. Thank you for, for sharing that.
I, so in 2006 I was diagnosed with
anxiety and I had refused that diagnosis at
the time. I was, you know, I have
(18:22):
found very common in the Black community, whether it's
Africa or the Caribbean, anything to do with mental health is
considered a stigma. It's considered negative. And there, I
mean, there's some advancement now, but years
ago, it was like, no, there was no conversation about
it. Nobody wants to talk about it. So we put it under the rug. It's not happening. Or
(18:43):
they just disregard the person completely. But
over the years, the open conversations about mental health
and wellness has definitely opened up
and educated a lot of people, the awareness of it. So I would
love if you could share for those that are listening, if they know
someone struggling with anxiety or any
(19:05):
other mental health struggles, how they
Yeah, that's really, really good. Yeah, we
know. So let me just back up and share that my
focus on mental health and psychology, studying
psychology, ultimately led me to my very
(19:27):
first job, which was a, as a high school counselor. And
that was just honestly like a
dream, not because it was easy, but because I
started so young. And so that helped me to, I
think, be relatable to the young people that were going through a
lot of the same things. struggles that I remember going through, and
(19:49):
sometimes I was still going through. So it was such
a rewarding experience working with young people who were old
enough and mature enough to really share with
you not just what they're experiencing, but where they think the root of
that experience stemmed from.
(20:10):
So that was great. And
I tell people back then, I worked
with high schoolers who were experiencing depression, anxiety,
self-harm. I am a private
practice clinician today. So when I started, oh
my gosh, close to 18 years ago, what
(20:31):
I'm seeing now or what I saw then pales in
comparison to what I'm seeing now. High
rates of depression, anxiety, self-harm,
even suicidal thoughts and completion,
so for young people, but actually adults are
(20:52):
struggling as well. And we know that according
to the World Health Organization, so not just in the U.S.,
one in five adults have a
mental health diagnosis. They're struggling with some sort
of emotional or behavioral health challenge, such as depression,
trauma, alcohol abuse, substance abuse,
(21:16):
Insomnia is like on the rise, especially since
the global pandemic. And that's usually what gets people into
therapy. I just can't sleep. And then when you do more digging,
you realize that there are anxious thoughts that are at the
root of that and sometimes even past traumas. So
your question is an important one. Like, how do we support those
(21:39):
who are struggling with some form of mental health challenge?
I think the first thing is to normalize it.
So if you think about it for a second, that stat that I just shared, one in
five, one in five people are struggling with something that
rises to the level of a clinical mental health diagnosis. But,
McKinney, that doesn't even, that's high enough, but
(22:02):
that doesn't even speak to what we've gone through
as a globe in the past four years. and
just everyday issues such as separation, such
as stress having to care for a child or
care for an elderly parent, dealing with your own
levels of stress. Maybe it doesn't rise to the level of a
(22:24):
mental health diagnosis, but it still impacts your
life in some way. How many of us have experienced a significantly high
period of just, you know, high work
volume? that can impact us. Burnout is
real, right? Regardless of whatever industry you're in,
we've all experienced just, you know, when we hit
(22:46):
that wall, and we're like, Oh, my gosh, I'm running on fumes. So
all of those things, all of those life experiences, bullying,
moving, can impact our mental health. So we support people
by sharing with them, it's normal to struggle. It's
normal to struggle. It doesn't mean that you're a failure. It doesn't
(23:07):
mean that you're crazy, which is one of those things that cause stigma
around help-seeking, is that people think they can only seek
help when they are experiencing extreme reactions
or extreme symptoms or signs of mental health.
And that's just not at all true. It's actually better when
(23:28):
you're not in crisis. to seek support and to talk to
someone and gain tools. So that's No. 1, is
to normalize it. No. 2 is to validate.
And I talk a lot, I, my first book
was called Seen, and it's about healing despair
and anxiety and, and young people, kids and teens. So
(23:50):
it was written for the perspective of an adult, a
parent, an educator, a ministry leader who wants to
help a young person. So we talked about validation
in that book and we did live talks. When
I tell you people push back on this concept. You
want me to validate what? You want me to validate bad behavior? You
(24:10):
want me to validate that they're not getting out of bed before noon? You want me
to validate, you know, that their, you know, parents are
like, that their, you know, talk is being salty with me?
No, I will not. So it was kind of funny and
I always, as a therapist, bring it on. I want to hear your thoughts and feelings.
And then I also want to share with you that validation does not mean that
(24:31):
you are in agreement with the
way that someone is handling something, with the way that an
individual is responding, or it may not be the way
that you would respond at all. So validation does
not mean that you agree, it just means that
you are recognizing that whatever this individual is experiencing feels
(24:53):
real to them. You may not feel the
same way, given the same set of circumstances. You may not
respond in the same way, given the same situation. However,
we do not know what that person is
carrying, right? Like, walk a mile in my shoes, we've heard that saying.
If you walked a mile in their shoes, you may actually respond in the exact same
(25:15):
way, right? So just taking a beat and hearing
your child and validating that that experience
that they're having feels real to them. For parents, and
I've worked with teenagers for a long time, that was my very first job, the
minute you say to a child, you're not feeling that, it
is not only is it deeply invalidating, now people
(25:38):
will throw the term gaslighting, right? Not only is
it deeply invalidating, you could actually spur
or prompt even more symptoms, because young people
will be like, Well, I'm gonna show you. I'm really struggling. And
we know that adolescents, there can be a lot of impulsivity. Oftentimes,
(25:58):
I tell people, young people, Don't
take their lives necessarily because they have
depression as a diagnosis. It's the combination of
despair, loneliness, and impulsivity. So
we want to mitigate that as much as possible by
letting them know, okay, I'm listening, and I
(26:22):
can tell that this feels really, really hard
for you. And then the third piece is, how can I help?
And so just at a high level, getting that young person to
support. It could be a therapist. It doesn't have to
be, just depending on kind of where they are. Some people just
need someone to listen to them. Some people need someone to, again,
(26:43):
validate. Some people need someone to help them to
reframe, to provide context and
perspective, which is a lot of what I do as a therapist. Not
everybody has money for therapy. First of
all, therapy wait lists are super long. Then
there are accessibility issues to finding a therapist. Not
(27:04):
everybody has insurance. Not everybody could afford a therapist. So
we want to empower caring
adults. sisters, neighbors, aunties, educators,
ministry leaders, grandparents. Grandparents have a lot of time, usually.
You know, bring that warm blanket over. We
(27:26):
wrote the book for young people, but really anybody, any
adult, your partner, your spouse, your friend who's
struggling, they need a listening ear. They need to
know that they're not alone. They need to not feel crazy, and
Wow, there's so much that you said there that I want to unpack. I don't even know if
(27:48):
we have enough time. So,
okay, a couple of important things that I heard. And
some of them are just, for me personally, they're just affirming
things that I know, but I want the listeners to take note.
One, we don't get to tell people how to feel, right? Like
(28:09):
you said, you can validate someone's feelings. It doesn't
necessarily mean that you agree with it. I loved, loved, loved when
you said that. Because, like
you said, people have a tendency, especially online these
days, to tell people how they should and shouldn't feel. But
we don't know, like you said, that person's circumstance. We don't know their paradigm.
(28:31):
We don't know their background. We don't know their morals, their environment.
They're probably certainly not, no trauma. Try
Exactly. Exactly. Very, very important. Um,
also you spoke about, um, teens
(28:52):
and you know, I feel like, so, okay,
I'm 44 and I have three kids, 26, 22 and 18. And, There
was a point, I'm going to say probably 10 years ago, before I had
the understanding, where it was like, you know, I
didn't understand what their stresses were about. I'm like, I
(29:13):
have done my very best to give you a life that I
couldn't have possibly dreamed of. What problems do
you have? But now... with understanding and
awareness. This generation, the struggles that
they have, the weight that they carry with
so many things that we may not necessarily even understand,
(29:35):
like just even social media, for example, all the information that
they consume in one day compared to what we had to
consume in our lifetime. So now having that understanding where
we don't know the weight that they're carrying. being
a support system, being,
(29:57):
you know, someone showing them empathy, all of the things that they
need. So just because we don't understand what they're going through
doesn't mean that they're not going through some heavy stuff. You
also spoke to, you know, therapy isn't
accessible to everyone, whether
it be the wait list, whether it be financing, whether it be not having
(30:22):
coverage or any of those things. And especially I
know for a fact that there are not as many black
therapists out there. So having culturally
relevant therapy, I think it's important that you spoke
to that because I think it was just yesterday I saw someone on threads, she
was a black therapist, but you could tell she was doing
(30:45):
a bit of a rant. I had to turn off my
phone and put it down for a second because I don't like to engage in
negativity on social media. But she was basically saying
that she's tired of seeing podcasts being
used as therapy and people should just
get a therapist. And
(31:06):
I thought to myself, that's a little privileged. That's
a little privileged. Because I know as someone who
goes to therapy every week, I spend almost $1,000 on therapy
a month. Not everybody has that. Not everybody has access
to that. Like, like you said, wait lists, all of those different things.
So If people are doing
(31:29):
what they can with what they have access to, then that's
a start. If they are getting support by listening to
conversations with experts like yourself that are
sharing tools, then it's a start. It's a
start. There are people out there that are afraid to even go to therapy, and I
know many of them, because they're afraid of what they may find out
(31:49):
or what they have to deal with emotionally. So this is a
great place to start if you don't have the finances or
the other resources for therapy. There
You're doing a great job. Like, I was like, how did you remember all of that? Cause
I, you know, your listeners may not see the video, but I,
you're, you were like looking at me and tracking me.
(32:13):
So you did a great job sort of going off the
list of points and you make an excellent, excellent point.
And that is a very, very privileged
perspective. So I, I have to say
that part of my mission You
know, people ask me, because I teach, I have a therapy practice, and
(32:34):
that certainly keeps me busy enough, but I
love coming on podcasts. I love sharing information about
mental health, what it is, what it isn't, what helps it,
what hurts it, because of the fact
that there still is a stigma, particularly in
communities of color, But even just throughout
(32:58):
all communities, there's a stigma around
what it means to struggle with one's mental health and
what it means to get help. And there's so many people, like
you heard in my story, a family member, where individuals
are either minimizing or ignoring the
hurt and the pain that they experience. And this
(33:22):
is just a PSA. Hurt and pain that's
stuffed always rises to the surface. It
does not die. The true condition of our
hearts and the true, the true condition
of our minds will eventually come to the
surface. And here's what happens. We just don't bleed on ourselves. Right?
(33:46):
Oftentimes, we bleed in a way that causes hurt and
pain to other people. And if anybody wants
to work on that, why wouldn't we make it easy
for them? And therapy isn't always the
easy option, nor, by the way, is it always the
necessary option, right? It's about community support.
(34:07):
There are so many things that we can talk about that can support an
individual's mental health and wellbeing that
Yes, absolutely. And to even
add to what you're saying, when you were saying earlier that
there wasn't a word in your language for therapy, and
(34:29):
I remember reading, what is
the book called? What Happened to You? Oprah
and another Dr. Bruce Perry. Yes, there
we go. And there's a part in there where
they were talking about how in some cultures, and
I think they specifically pointed out Indigenous cultures and African cultures,
(34:50):
that they didn't have therapy, but it was the sense of
community that helped people to heal. It
was a lot of the dancing in the cultures that
helped release a lot of the trapped emotions. Like they were listing all
of the things. It was music and sound. all
of the other beautiful tools and practices that are natural
(35:12):
to those cultures that are equivalent to,
you know, therapy and that have helped people just as much as therapy.
So there, there may not be a language for it, but there's definitely, you
know, the, the tools and the, um, I guess all
of the benefits, um, there, um,
there was something else I was going to say until we can't remember now. You're doing
(35:35):
great. So
I would love if you could share with the listeners about
your latest book, Beyond the Spiral, and what inspired
Oh, thanks so much for that opportunity. Yes, so
our latest book is called Beyond
(35:55):
the Spiral and the subtitle I love, Why
You Shouldn't Believe Everything Anxiety Tells You
Because Anxiety Tends to Lie. to us.
So this book was written specifically for young
adults and adolescents, because coming out
of the pandemic, the research, the data showed us that
(36:16):
those were the two groups of individuals who
were suffering the most. And anxiety
quickly overtook depression as the
No. 1 mental health condition, not just in
the United States, but in the world. So
it really made sense to have a resource for young
(36:37):
people that was filled with clinical
principles, but in a very simple and practical way.
to, you know, help people to just, you know, figure
out how to support themselves and
support other people in those moments of, of struggle
that we all experience from time to time. So what
(36:59):
we've learned, and it's interesting, I learned it in a really fun
way. What we've learned is, even though the audience was
really focused on adolescents and young adults, is
that adults were picking this up. And if you have, and I know you have
a teenager, if those of you who are listening, if
you have, you know, teenagers or young adults, the last thing
(37:20):
they want to do is to read a book about their anxiety, right? So
we would just share with parents, even on podcasts, just
read a chapter to them. you know, at the dinner table or
at night if you have like a younger child. And this is the fun
thing that I learned. I was in doing a
session, a telehealth session, and my client, who
(37:42):
I did not tell her I wrote a second book, I probably should
have, I'm a terrible marketer, but I did
it. And she was, you know, to be fair, she was an adult woman and we
had marketed this book toward young people. She
shared with me, she was like, I didn't know that you wrote a book. She
was like, somebody gave me the book, not knowing that you were my
(38:02):
therapist. She was like, I was reading it to my husband
at night because he struggles with significant anxiety. And
she said, I think it's helping. So just, I
know I'm not here to sell a book, but just to share that even though the
book was targeted for young people, it is helpful
for anyone who struggles with anxiety specifically, or
(38:25):
just a general mental health struggle where you're just not
feeling balanced. So, in
the book, we talk about the different lies anxiety tells you,
and we talk about just the different ways of addressing those
lies. Anxiety tells us that we're not safe. Anxiety
tells us that we should just ignore it, right? We should push it down, and
(38:46):
we kind of combat those myths or those lies with
evidence-based principles and then very specific
strategies. One of the lies is that anxiety tells
us, I have no control, right? This feels insurmountable. It
feels like it's overwhelming me. It's overtaking me.
That is a lie. The feeling is true, right?
(39:08):
We always validate what people's experiences are.
But, you know, once you read the book, or once you walk along
somebody who's there to support you, you can learn tools
that will help you to feel more and more in
control. And so some of the tools we talk about In
the book, and again, this is
(39:30):
a great supplement for someone who, or adjunct
for someone who's in therapy. But if you can't afford therapy,
or you're not sure that you need a therapist, these tools can really help
you. And some of them are so simple. We talk about just the
holistic nature of anxiety.
We just don't think worry-filled thoughts. We
(39:53):
feel anxiety. Not just, you know, as part
of our emotions, we feel hesitancy, we feel reluctance, we
feel fear, we feel trepidation, but you actually
feel anxiety and even depression in
your body. Many of us have experienced those moments where
we can't get out of bed, it feels like there's something sitting on our chest,
(40:14):
or we feel really hot. I had a client early this morning, She
shared that her anxiety got so bad last week that she was
vomiting and feeling nauseated and there's something precipitated that,
but that wasn't an everyday occurrence. She was like, I've never had
the physical manifestation of anxiety like I did last week.
So we ask our clients, and we
(40:38):
ask the people that we care about, just some simple questions
about what they're doing to take care of themselves holistically.
It's not just about thinking something different. That's
part of it. But it's also about looking at your
lifestyle. Because I always say that anxiety is
there to give us information, just like any
(40:59):
other emotion. And you want to ask yourself, What
is my anxiety or my distress signaling?
Are you having, here's some questions, some of which we have in the book. Are you
having any challenges in your relationships? Are
you feeling a sense of overwhelm? Are
(41:20):
you feeling like you're behind, right? How many of us feel that way
when life just, life demands, you know, just feels like it's
way too much? And then really simple foundational things
that we want. people to focus on, are
you getting enough sleep? Right? As adults, we really should
be getting 8 to 10 hours of sleep. How
(41:41):
many of us can say that we're getting that, right? I know I feel
so much better if it's not
anxiety. Sometimes I feel less anxious. I feel more
alert. I feel more able to connect.
I feel more resourceful when I go to bed at
10 o'clock versus midnight. I'm
(42:03):
gonna wake up when I wake up, right? But if I wake up, I
usually wake up around 6.30 nowadays. If I go
to bed at midnight or 1 and
then pop up at 6.30, that's not enough rest.
food to feel like you could tackle your day. Anxiety
has been linked scientifically to certain
(42:26):
foods. So asking yourself, you
know, how many cups of coffee or energy drinks?
They're sneaky things that we, you know, didn't
realize have caffeine and sugar and what that does
to your body. So just, you know, just one aspect of
what's in the book. Attending to what your
(42:48):
body is telling you through these mental health symptoms can
be really, really helpful because anxiety specifically is manifested
in the body first. But people are usually wondering,
Yeah. Wow. I love that
you even explained it that way. And I've shared this on
(43:10):
the podcast quite a few times. So at the time when
I was diagnosed with anxiety in 2006, I was also
diagnosed with fibromyalgia. And they say it's like chronic muscle pain
within the body. And I know after doing all the
research, doctors just label that on anyone where they can't
figure it out when all the other health tests show that you're perfectly healthy.
(43:32):
And as I've been doing all of my studies and
my awareness on mindset and on holistic
healing and all these different things, it was realizing
that it wasn't the fibromyalgia causing depression and anxiety. It
was the depression and anxiety causing all the physical symptoms within
my body. And when I was able to pay
(43:55):
attention to my thoughts, feelings, and my actions, which included
coming out of toxic relationships, which included unhealthy eating,
which included not getting enough sleep, all those things, I no longer
had any fibromyalgia flare-ups. Yeah. So
Yes. Yes, Williams. I love that you share that. That's
(44:17):
so important. I'm glad that you've already shared that with your listeners. It's
an important reminder that, you know, our mind, our
body, our soul, you know, our connected,
interconnected in really amazing and powerful ways.
And even just thinking about something that
can be upsetting can set off your GI tract, your
(44:40):
gastrointestinal system, right? And just
again, one of the lies that anxiety tells us is that we
should just ignore it. Or when we go
to a doctor like you did and they can't figure it out and
then they just say one thing, but we know that something is sort of lingering.
our emotions will give us clues.
(45:01):
We want to follow those breadcrumbs. Feelings
get a bad rap in our society. Our
society prefers, to
a much higher level, prefers thinking and
cognitive processes. So we then dismiss the way that
we feel. And so we should never
(45:24):
ignore our emotions, right? Because we think that
if we do, it'll go away. Again, ignoring something
is rarely the solution. And we know, I think there's a study by Harvard,
the Harvard group in public health and also the University of
Rochester, they showed that people who bottled up their
(45:44):
emotions actually increased their risk of being
diagnosed with cancer by 70%. So what
you're saying is really, really, really important. It's OK
to be angry, right? It's OK to be sad. We don't want our
emotions to always drive the bus, but we want
to attend to our emotions and say, OK, you're
(46:04):
showing up for a reason. So what do I need to
I love that. There's a book that I read a few
years ago called Permission to Feel, and it just talks about that our feelings
are data, right? And then it's
the emotion code, definitely helps to understand, you
(46:25):
know, our feelings, how they affect us physically. But
sharing that stat about how stress is
connected to cancer was very important, because my therapist actually told me that
recently, one of the main causes of cancer is stress. We
are all stressed out right now, so we need to
Solutions, yeah. And again, community, getting out
(46:48):
in nature, focusing outward,
right? So even though, and this is really interesting, even though
we're saying focus on our emotions or give yourself
permission to feel, Put a timetable on
that, you know what I mean? I'll be very honest with
you and a lot of therapists don't say this. It actually is unhelpful
(47:11):
to ruminate and perseverate on negative
emotions for too long. So when you feel
what you feel, but get it out, talk about it, journal it,
express it, and then focus on how you
can contribute to the well-being of someone else
in your life or in your community. That is a wonderful way
(47:33):
of really boosting your mental health along with gratitude. We
don't go there first. We don't tell people, oh, you should be thankful for all these things
that you have. I tell parents all the time. That's
not where we're going. We don't want to bypass emotions. We
want to validate emotions. And if you're the person that's
struggling, please remember the benefit of feeling
(47:58):
Yes. Thank you so much, Dr. Chinwe, for your
gems, for your expertise, for all the things that you've
shared with us today. I know the listeners will definitely, definitely, definitely
get so much value from this episode. I know I will definitely
Oh, my gosh, I feel like you're so well-versed yourself. The
(48:21):
listeners are so fortunate to, to have you. And to
your point, a lot of times it's, it's what we go through that really informs
what we end up sort of doing and how we help people. So
Thank you, thank you so much. I would love if you could tell the listeners
where they could stay connected with you, where they can learn more from you
(48:43):
Well, thank you so much. So my website is probably the
best place and it's drchenwaywilliams.com, C-H-I-N-W-E,
Williams is easier to spell. And if you are
on social media, I'm most active on Instagram and that's
where I share mental health tools and tips and also sometimes
(49:03):
just, you know, what my family, what we're up to, to kind of boost our,
our mental health. So that's Dr. Chinwe
Williams. That's my IG handle, Dr. period Chinwe Williams.
Perfect. I will definitely have all the links to connect with you
in the details section of the episode, so they can just click and connect
directly. Beautiful. Thank you
(49:25):
so much for your time. Again, I do not take your time lightly. I
do appreciate you co-creating this experience with me for
the listeners. And if there is anything that I
could do to assist your community or to help you with, I'd
Oh, you're wonderful. This has been like such a joy. Thanks
so much. Thank you for what you do. And I hope you have a wonderful
(49:49):
Thank you. To all you healers out there, until next time,
subscribe on all platforms. Don't forget to rate the show and leave us a
review on Apple podcast. And I just want to thank each and
every one of you that continues to listen each week to help the show rank
globally in the top 1.5% of most popular podcasts out there. Feel
free to join the community of healers. You can sign up for
(50:11):
our weekly newsletter at awakendmystilettos.com. I
want to challenge you to share your aha moments
from this episode. Feel free to screenshot this week's episode and
you can tag Dr. Chinway at dr.chinwaywilliams. d
r dot c h i n w
(50:34):
e w i l l i a m
s you can tag myself at the real mckinney smith a
healthy community is a healing community and a healing community is
full of hope because it has seen its own people weather
survive and thrive so let's continue to heal her
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!