April 3, 2025 • 52 mins
Dr. Thema Bryant, a psychologist and minister, integrates faith and science to advocate for holistic healing and resilience, a perspective deeply influenced by her personal journey and family background. With roots in her father's pastoral counseling and her mother's mental health journey, Dr. Bryant believes in the profound potential of restoration and the reclamation of joy and trust, particularly after trauma. Her experiences as a trauma survivor inform her unique approach, which emphasizes learning from past mistakes and seeking wisdom from those with healthy relationships to foster true healing. Through her work, including her book "Matters of the Heart," Dr. Bryant underscores the transformative power of turning personal pain into empowerment and the importance of authentic, loving relationships in the journey to healing.
Key takeaways:
- Pain can birth purpose and lead to empowerment and healing through sharing personal stories.
- Breaking the stigma around mental health, therapy, and faith is essential for seeking help without shame or judgment.
- Trauma survivors can reclaim joy, trust, intimacy, and confidence through self-exploration and healthy relationships.
- Anxiety and insecurity can hinder genuine connections in relationships by promoting emotional unavailability and false intimacy.
- Self-awareness and humility are key in recognizing and changing persistent relationship patterns for personal growth.
- True fulfillment comes from living authentically, nurturing loving relationships, and investing in mutual, reciprocal connections.
- Balancing emotional and spiritual well-being involves practicing mutuality and reciprocity in relationships to support personal growth and deepen connections.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Makini Smith (00:00):
I'm Makini Smith. After going through a
divorce, my sister passing away, experiencing narcissistic
abuse and some significant health scares, I
realized through sharing my story that I
wasn't alone in my suffering. Suffering, subjective
distress generated by the experience of being
out of balance in a deep dive
to holistically heal mind, body and soul
(00:22):
is where I discovered peace, clarity and
connection. It is impossible to be truly
wise without some real life hardship and
we cannot develop post traumatic wisdom without
making it through and most importantly, through
it together. Social connection builds resilience and
resilience helps create post traumatic wisdom. And
(00:45):
that wisdom leads to hope. Hope for
you and others, witnessing and participating in
your healing and hope for your community.
A healthy community is a healing community
and a healing community is full of
hope because it has seen its own
people weather survive and thrive. This episode
(01:23):
is brought to you by Shades of
youf, an affirmation journal coloring book to
help you find peace, clarity and connection.
I created this book with Black women
in mind, relaxation, creativity and self love
Wrapped in one. Shades of youf is
an adult coloring book created for Black
(01:44):
women to celebrate their beauty, strength and
diversity of our experiences. So take a
break, de stress and express yourself with
empowering illustrations. Available now on Amazon or@mckinneysmith.com
Today's guest is Dr. Tama Bryant. She's
(02:05):
a psychologist, author, professor, sacred artist and
minister who is leading the way in
creating healthy relationships, healing traumas and overcoming
stress and oppression. Dr. Tama is the
author of the newly released book Matters
of the Heart which aims to empower
readers to connect with themselves and to
(02:25):
others, delving into topics such as control
issues, emotional unavailability, practical activation activities, case
studies, and teaching how to shift mindset
and patterns around romance. Dr. Tama Bryant
completed her doctorate in Clinical Psychology at
(02:46):
Duke University and her post doctoral training
at Harvard Medical Center's Victims of Violence
Program. Most recently, she was the 2023
president of the American Psychological Association APA
and is the host of the Homecoming
Podcast. So please welcome to the show
(03:09):
Dr. Tama.
Dr. Thema Bryant (03:10):
Oh, thank you for having me.
Makini Smith (03:14):
Thank you so, so much. I am
always honored when incredible women yourself agree
to come on and share not only
just your story and your expertise, but
your time and your energy. I do
not take that lightly. You could be
anywhere in the world right now and
I'm honored that you are here with
us.
Dr. Thema Bryant (03:34):
Well, I am honored by your invitation
and thank you for holding space for
our healing.
Makini Smith (03:40):
It's. It's been a huge part of
my journey and I strongly Believe that,
you know, when we learn something, we
should teach it to others. So as
I've been evolving and on my own
healing journey over the last. I'm going
to say it's almost seven years since
we've had this podcast. It has been
an honor to have guests on every
week to share their stories and their
(04:00):
expertise so that we are globally, you
know, creating conversations about healing.
Dr. Thema Bryant (04:05):
Yes. Well, congratulations. That really is an
accomplishment to keep it going over the
years.
Makini Smith (04:14):
Thank you. Thank you. So I like
to start the show with a bit
of an icebreaker question, just to kind
of get to know, I guess, who
you were before society or culture or
even our families, you know, limited our.
Our beliefs. So I would love to
know, you know, what is your earliest
childhood memory that defines who you are
(04:35):
today?
Dr. Thema Bryant (04:37):
So my earliest memory is funny as
things go full circle, but I was
in preschool, and I was asked what
I want it to be when I
grow up, and I said, I want
it to be a house for the
homeless. I was told that a person
(05:00):
can't be a house, so you have
to pick something else. That resonates with
me because my first book for the
public was called Homecoming. And someone said
to me, well, you did know what
you were talking about. You became a
house as a psychologist and a minister,
(05:23):
that you're a house. And so I
love that.
Makini Smith (05:28):
I love it. I love it. Okay.
You have had such an incredible journey,
you know, from earning your doctorate and
writing transformative books. What inspired you to
dedicate your career to psychology, healing, and
empowerment?
Dr. Thema Bryant (05:45):
Well, growing up. Well, first, let me
say there's a story in our conscious
mind, and then there's, like, an unconscious
story. Right. So my conscious answer to
that question has usually been that my
father was a pastor. And so growing
up, I often saw him doing pastoral
(06:08):
care and counseling, and people would often
call our home when they were in
distress. And I've always been what would
be considered a sensitive soul. And then
when I heard about the field of
psychology, it matched with me wanting to
bear witness and be present for people
(06:30):
as they walk through the difficulties of
life. And so that's, you know, the
story of my awareness is my father
as pastoral counselor. And so then me
becoming a psychologist is no big surprise.
The deeper story is having grown up
with a mother who lived with depression
(06:53):
and anxiety that for my, during my
childhood years, was undiagnosed and untreated. Later,
I'm grateful that she did receive the
diagnosis and receive services. It also became
very vocal in talking about her own
mental health journey. So that's the deeper
(07:15):
part of the story of knowing intimately
and deeply the impact on the person,
on the family, of mental illness.
Makini Smith (07:28):
I strongly believe after, you know, almost
seven years of recording this podcast, that
our pain births our purpose. Everyone that
has come on the show and spoken
about, you know, what they do and
how they serve, it's connected to them
transmuting their pain into purpose somehow.
Dr. Thema Bryant (07:48):
Yes, absolutely. So it's, you know, what
do we do instead of being in
shame and silence? It's like, what does
your story prepare you for, inform you,
for, launch you into, if you own
the fullness of it?
Makini Smith (08:09):
Yeah. So speaking of our stories, your.
Your latest book, Matters of the Heart,
it's deeply rooted in emotional connection and
self discovery. So was there a pivotal
moment in your life that shaped your
understanding of relationships and healing?
Dr. Thema Bryant (08:26):
Yes. So I dedicated the book to
my mom, and actually last year she
died of breast cancer. And thank you
so much. And the reason it's dedicated
to her is she loved deeply and
fiercely, and I would say as a
(08:47):
result, it gave me a secure foundation.
You show up to life differently when
there is someone who, like, deeply loves
you and is cheering for you. And
so it, you know, brought to my
mind the awareness of both the gift
(09:08):
of loving connection and the challenges that
are created when that is not present.
So desiring for each of us to
have that, whether that's from a biological
parent or from someone else, to have
a secure base by which you know,
(09:28):
you are loved, known, believed in, prayed
for, hoped for, for you to do
well in life, that is so healing
and empowering.
Makini Smith (09:43):
And so, okay, you, you talked about
your, your father being a pastor growing
up, and you yourself are now ordained.
And, you know, in the field that
you're in, you merge faith and science
in your work. How do you feel?
I guess your spiritual background has influenced
(10:05):
your approach to mental health and relationships.
Dr. Thema Bryant (10:08):
Yes. So it allows me to show
up more holistically, you know, the roots
of psychology. Actually, psychology means the study
of the soul. And those who are
accredited, you know, with being early pioneers
in the field were largely people of
faith. But then there was a shift
(10:30):
where as a field, we wanted to
prove ourselves to be a science. And
so there was a distancing from anything
that could not be proven. And so
I'm, you know, mindful as a person
of faith and someone who grew up
with faith of the research that shows
(10:51):
women and people of color endorse a
higher level of spirituality and religiosity. And
so then who is harmed when, as
a field, we Pathologize or put down
people of faith. And so to not
make people feel like they have to
(11:12):
choose of, like, am I going to
pray or am I going to therapy?
Am I going to meditate or am
I going to therapy? And that's such
a false, unnecessary choice. But for us
to be able to use all of
the different aspects of ourselves for our
healing and for our wholeness.
Makini Smith (11:34):
You know, what I. What I love
and appreciate about yourself and the others
that have come on that are in
the mental health and mental wellness space
is the breaking the stigma that, you
know, especially if, you know, all of
the people that I've been connected to
that go to church or that are
(11:54):
religious or spiritual, the belief that, you
know, you can pray it away or
that you can, you know, you only
have prayer or the church to help
you get through what you need to.
And I deeply appreciate the open conversations
and the knowledge that both, you know,
therapy and, you know, prayer and faith
(12:17):
can go hand in hand because I
have seen people use that to hurt
other people or make other people feel
shame for seeking additional help.
Dr. Thema Bryant (12:28):
Yeah, it has been so unfortunate and
a disservice to people. I actually had
a pastor confide in me how he
felt so bad that for so many
years, he told members of his congregation,
don't let people medicate your child. Don't
(12:50):
let people diagnose your child. And then
he ended up having a son with
ADHD who was greatly helped and relieved
by getting therapy and medication. And, you
know, he lives with, you know, the
guilt of the number of families that
(13:10):
were misguided by his lack of knowledge.
Makini Smith (13:14):
Mm. Mm. So when I hear stories
like that, like, for me, that. That
hits home because I feel like oftentimes
there are people that are in positions
that could be using their influence and
their power to help people, and due
to ignorance or lack of knowledge, they're
(13:34):
hurting people. You know, it's against what
they wanted to do. You know, we
don't know what we don't know. But
oftentimes I look at, especially where I'm
getting advice from, I don't like to
take advice from people that I wouldn't
want to switch places with. So, you
know, if I'm coming to someone for,
I don't know, parenting advice, I prefer
to go to a parent that I
(13:56):
see, you know, has healthy relationship with
their children or, you know, relationship advice
from someone who was in a healthy
relationship.
Dr. Thema Bryant (14:07):
Yeah, it's true. To be able to
observe people. And as my mom used
to say, it does matter how you
Treat people because people can present with
all kinds of wisdom and knowledge or
charisma. But in the end, how do
people feel in their presence? Do people
(14:27):
feel honored or dishonored? Seen or not
seen, Valued or devalued?
Makini Smith (14:34):
That's big. Yeah, yeah. Early in your
career, you worked with trauma survivors, correct?
Dr. Thema Bryant (14:42):
Yes.
Makini Smith (14:43):
So how did that experience shape the
way that you view healing and resilience?
Dr. Thema Bryant (14:48):
It is important, I would say, not
only from my practice, but from my
lived experience. So I'm a trauma survivor,
Survivor of sexual assault and then also
experiencing and seeing community violence. Growing up
in Baltimore and then in high school.
For two years, I lived in Liberia,
(15:11):
West Africa. The first year was amazing.
The second year, unfortunately, a civil war
broke out. So I have seen violence
and trauma on multiple levels. And so
knowing both from working with clients and
my own testimony that restoration is possible,
that there can be more to our
(15:33):
stories than what is done to us,
but that we then get to take
the pen and write the next chapter
of our lives. And so it allows
me to come to this work with
a hope and a faith that we
(15:54):
can reclaim ourselves. We will never be
who we were before the violation. We
don't get to erase it, but we
can reclaim our joy, our trust, our
intimacy, our confidence that those things can
(16:15):
be rebuilt.
Makini Smith (16:18):
I love that. And I strongly believe,
like, you know, when. When we are
able to be an example and show
other people, like, if it's possible for
me, it's possible for you, too. Yeah.
Okay. So in your latest book, Matters
of the Heart, it touches on control
(16:38):
issues and emotional unavailability. So I want
to touch on some of that because
a lot of our listeners have been,
I'm going to say, with us since
a few years ago when I shared
about my experience with narcissistic abuse. So
I would love if you could share
what are some of the most common
relationship patterns that prevent people from forming
(17:02):
deeper connections?
Dr. Thema Bryant (17:04):
Yeah. So, first of all, thank you
for sharing your story, your testimony, and
I'm glad that you survived it, you
know, because that is one of the
things I think that is freeing for
a lot of people is the word
of our own testimony. So grateful for
(17:26):
that. So, in terms of emotional unavailability,
you know, it's often rooted in anxiety
and insecurity. So the anxiety where based
on our own bad experiences or our
observations, perhaps growing up, of other dysfunctional
(17:49):
or abusive relationships, where we conclude that
people equal danger relationships, equal harm and
hurt, equal and violation and mistreatment. And
so then we can develop a style
(18:12):
of keeping things very surface because it
feels safe. And so, you know, you
can develop the capacity. It's actually a
skill that can work for you. Talking
a lot and saying nothing.
Makini Smith (18:29):
Right, Right.
Dr. Thema Bryant (18:32):
You can do that. And in some
places, that skill is needed. I tell
people like the workplace, a lot of
times promotions are based on relationships. So
if you just, like, put your head
down and work hard, you may not
be promoted because a part of it
is like your capacity to connect with
people, which, you know, it's one thing
(18:53):
if we're talking about in the workplace
keeping things surface, but then it can
create more issue or harm or problems
when our friends don't really know us
or our dating partners don't really know
us because we are performing or presenting
(19:15):
or sending our representative because we want
to be chosen and liked so can
figure out what do people want or
what do people like? And then I'm
going to present that so that I'm
acceptable to the person, but yet they
don't really know me. Right. So then
(19:37):
it's like a false intimacy or a
false connection. Another way that people can
hide. So one is, you know, we
can hide by not being our authentic
selves. People also can hide, but with
infidelity. So, you know, I just have
multiple relationships, but I keep everyone at
(20:00):
a distance. That's another way of not
really being emotionally present. We can also
hide with being a workaholic and a
perfectionist. So if I stay busy, that
is another tactic that can be distancing.
You know, I don't have time for
(20:21):
real connection. I don't have time for
you to really know me. And that
can also feel safer than slowing down
and actually being known.
Makini Smith (20:31):
Wow. You know, you listed, I'm going
to say a lot of traits of
my exes.
Dr. Thema Bryant (20:40):
Like, there. There they are. Yeah.
Makini Smith (20:43):
I mean, you know, in the moment,
right after, you know, you're angry, you're
going through all these feelings of, you
know, what happened to you. But then
when I got into my own healing
journey and started to understand more about,
you know, emotional unavailability and how their
traumas, you know, I guess caused them
to be the way that they are,
it helped me have more compassion and
(21:04):
grace. And I. I'm. I'm not saying
that what they did wasn't hurtful, but
at the same time, I can now
come from a place where it's. It's
like I actually feel sorry for these
people.
Dr. Thema Bryant (21:18):
Yeah. That you get to see. You
know, I think one of the things
in the healing afterwards can be knowing
that it's not all malicious. Right. That
they're not actually having a great time.
You know, it's one thing when you're
like, oh, my goodness, this person is
(21:39):
so selfish. They're having their joy at
my expense and then coming to the
reality that, yes, they're making me miserable
and they're miserable as well. Not that
I then need to save or rescue
them, but it just helps to understand,
like, what is really happening here.
Makini Smith (21:59):
You know, maybe you can, I guess,
expand on this, but like, a lot
of the women that come to me
about their, I'm gonna say, unhealthy relationships,
after they hear, you know, my story
or listen to parts of the podcast
or read my books, they. It's. It's
me helping them depersonalize the experience. Especially
with, you know, the, the narcissistic abuse
(22:20):
where it's like reminding them that you
could be anybody on the planet. You
could have been, you know, Sally, Sue,
Jessica, it doesn't matter. That behavior that
that person did is still going to
be the same. So that they can
not internalize that it was done specifically,
like, to them.
Dr. Thema Bryant (22:38):
Yes. Yeah, that's an important point because,
you know, one of the things that
people will often say is like, you
know, oh, there's something wrong with me
in terms of like, why I was
targeted or why I was chosen. And
similar to your point, what I discover
(22:59):
is people who operate like that, operate
like that with everyone. Right. So it's
just you're filling the slot at the
moment and they approach everyone with the
same intentions. So the part that can
be healing or empowering is not just
that around thinking I was chosen because
(23:23):
I have a problem, but to more
think about if they approach everyone this
way, it really is about how quickly
I recognize it and how long I
stay. That's my liberation is like, when
I see it showing up, you know,
(23:43):
someone approaches me with those dynamics that
instead of me, you know, with insecurity,
perhaps being okay with the breadcrumbing or
myself that I have to win them
over or I, like, it's my job
to make it work. That instead I
(24:05):
can recognize it sooner, see it for
what it is and be liberated by,
like, I don't have to participate in
this. So I. Yeah, then I can
get free sooner.
Makini Smith (24:19):
You know, when I first. I'm going
to say when I had my. I'm
going to say when I first had
the breakup with. I'm going to say
one of the most devastating breakups that
I probably had is probably about six
years, six, seven years ago, maybe. And
at the time, it was like, in
my mind, and eventually out loud, I
was like, I attract narcissists. Like, what.
(24:41):
What is it about me that I
need to change what is wrong with
me? And then, you know, I went
deeper into my healing journey and started
therapy and all the other things. And
it was, you know, understanding not only
my. My childhood growing up, but also
I thought I had boundaries, but learning
(25:02):
what. What healthy boundaries really are and
learning how to love myself and all
of the other things that I thought
at the time that I already knew
or that I was already doing. So
I guess, you know, many of us
carry unhealed wounds that affect our ability
to love fully. What are some first
steps people can take to identify and
(25:24):
address these wounds?
Dr. Thema Bryant (25:26):
Yeah. So it is really, in part
about becoming curious about yourself and about
other people so that you can start
to see the pattern. So then it's
like recognizing. Because it's often easier for
(25:50):
us to see other people, right? We
can say, like, oh, they're off, they're
off, they're off. Right. But it's like,
for me to have the humility and
the openness to see myself not in
a way of, like, shaming or blaming,
but just like that I am the
(26:11):
one that I can shift, right. Instead
of making other people my project of
how do I shift them? No, how
do I see me and shift me
so that I can begin to show
up in relationships in ways that actually
serve me, you know, in ways that
are healthy? So, you know, then when
(26:32):
I become curious about myself, it's like,
oh, okay, so this person either said
or showed early that they did not
really value me, and yet I went
out with them again. Right. That's the
part for me to see of, like,
what was the message I was telling
(26:53):
myself? So sometimes it can be the
scarcity piece, which is easy to believe
when you aren't seeing a lot of
options, right. Sometimes why do we stay?
It's like, well, nobody was showing up
that was treating me better or like
that, promising something better. So this felt
(27:15):
like my best option.
Makini Smith (27:17):
Right.
Dr. Thema Bryant (27:17):
So the things that was healing for
me was realizing I can choose none
of the above. Right. Sometimes we're choosing
the best out of a bunch of
bad options.
Makini Smith (27:33):
Right?
Dr. Thema Bryant (27:33):
So then it's like, can I tolerate
none of the above? Which may mean
that there's a season when I'm by
myself, and that's okay, that I'd rather
choose that than choose to continue with
mistreatment.
Makini Smith (27:53):
I know for me, one of the
biggest things was learning to retrust myself.
You know, my healing process was learning
to trust McKinney again.
Dr. Thema Bryant (28:02):
Yes.
Makini Smith (28:04):
So I guess with so many people
experiencing relational trauma, whether from family, friends,
or even romantic relationships, what advice do
you have for someone trying to rebuild
trust in others?
Dr. Thema Bryant (28:18):
Yes. So I would say look at
the people who you have trusted who
didn't let you down. It might not
always be romantic, but, you know, when
I can. Because if not, we'll have
this idea in our minds of, like,
(28:38):
everybody's trash. Everyone's a loser. Right. So,
like, I need some. Some wins. So
when I have opened my heart to
someone and they didn't end up being
a user or manipulator, what did that
look like? How did they treat me?
(29:01):
And what were the indications early on
that made me, you know, open up
in the ways that I did. Right.
And for us to also recognize that
these things can be gradual. Sometimes we're
giving people too much too soon, where,
(29:22):
like, either closed or we're giving everything
away, including the kitchen sink. So it's
like, you know, let me instead think
about the gradual growth so that I
can have time to see, you know,
who are people and what are the
ways they are showing up for me
(29:45):
or not showing up for me.
Makini Smith (29:47):
That's big. I can totally relate to
that because I feel like when I
was going through my experience, I could
have easily, easily said, you know, all
men are trash because of my experience
of choosing the wrong men. But when
I looked at the men around me
that do love me, that do show
(30:08):
me that are there for me, you
know, I have my father, I have
my male friends, I now have my
fiance, like, there are so many people
that were examples to help, I'm going
to say, shift my paradigm. So I
didn't stick to that belief that all
men are trash. I didn't lump them
in, you know, because I had proof
in my life that there were really
(30:30):
amazing men.
Dr. Thema Bryant (30:31):
Yes. I love that. Look for the
proof. And if you don't see it
in your life, in other people's lives,
that will give you hope. Right. So
that I'm not just surrounding myself with
everyone who has given up. Right. I've
given up. And everyone in my circle
is like, yes, you know, relationships suck.
All men suck. Then it's going to
(30:52):
keep me stuck. But hear the testimonies
of people who have had a good
experience and not to think that, oh,
they're the exception. Like, oh, they get
to have a good life. But I
don't. But to, you know, to borrow
that hope of, like, here are These
(31:13):
people who have had these unhealthy situations
similar to mine, and they remained open
or they were closed for a season
for their healing, they reopened their hearts
and like, some goodness met them there.
Makini Smith (31:30):
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's my story
right now where I closed myself off
for a few years to get really
into my healing and understand myself and
reconnected with a high school friend and
we've been together three and a half
years now. We're engaged, about to get
married. There's hope for my friends right
(31:53):
There is there?
Dr. Thema Bryant (31:54):
And it gives other people hope when
they hear those stories to know, like,
yeah, it's possible. I love that.
Makini Smith (32:04):
Yeah. Well, what are some practical exercises
or even daily habits that can help
someone cultivate a healthier approach to love?
Dr. Thema Bryant (32:13):
Yeah. So one of the things that
we can do is of course, start
with nourishing ourselves, because when I'm in
a defeated place, then that will make
me more likely to accept and expect
unhealthy treatment. So it's like, what have
(32:34):
you done for you lately? Right. To
love ourselves and nourish ourselves and not
just when we're burned out. Sometimes we
neglect ourselves and then, you know, we
physically or emotionally or spiritually break down
and then we try to do something
for ourselves. But I would say to
think about, for a daily practice, what
(32:56):
is a way I can love on
myself today? And those things don't have
to be like super expensive. I mean,
of course, if you have the resources,
you can treat yourself to certain things.
Right. But also so like, let me
love on myself with my rest, let
me love on myself with my nutrition.
(33:18):
Let me level myself in my boundary
setting to not tolerate or entertain things
that are not nourishing to me. Let
me level myself with my entertainment, like
do the shows I watch or the
social media accounts that I follow, do
(33:40):
they leave me feeling edified or leave
me feeling worse about myself? So we
can choose love in that way. And
then I would say in terms of
like making connections to open ourselves up
to love so that we're not just
(34:01):
in combat mode or self isolation mode,
but are we receptive to love? Right.
Are we receptive to connection and the
possibility of connection? Those things are really
helpful for nourishing our hearts.
Makini Smith (34:18):
Those are like, that's all amazing advice.
I think the listeners should rewind that
and actually take notes and write that
down.
Dr. Thema Bryant (34:27):
I love that.
Makini Smith (34:31):
You have had an enormous impact on
the field of psychology. What legacy do
you hope to leave behind in the
mental health space?
Dr. Thema Bryant (34:42):
I love that question. Thank you so
much.
Makini Smith (34:45):
You're welcome.
Dr. Thema Bryant (34:46):
So I would love a legacy of
liberation oriented mental health professionals who are
committed to promoting justice and love within
(35:08):
individuals, but also in terms of community
work. So working with the collective, which
in part is like this podcast of
giving our science away. Right. It should
not just be some exclusive thing that
is for like the wealthy or the
(35:29):
people with the highest level of education,
but finding ways to share wisdom, knowledge,
compassion that is accessible. So in podcasts
and in books that are written for
the public, in social media, in blogs,
(35:51):
finding ways to share the information and
then also highlighting wisdom from indigenous sources,
highlighting wisdom from wisdom from women so
that we're not buying into this notion
(36:11):
of, like, who are the real scientists,
right. That those are only white, straight,
cisgender men who are able bodied. But
recognizing wisdom in all of its various
sources and of course, crediting those sources
(36:34):
is very important. Not just taking the
knowledge, but like highlighting the various voices.
And then the last thing I would
say about legacy is wanting people to
know that healing is not just about
addressing the wounds of past hurts, but
(36:55):
instead about, or in addition about maximizing
growth and thriving and resilience and soaring.
So for us to be able to
live the fullness of our lives.
Makini Smith (37:12):
Amen. Amen.
Dr. Thema Bryant (37:14):
Amen.
Makini Smith (37:17):
I love it. You're speaking my language.
Yay. Thank you. Well, I, I love
everything that you said. And then my,
my, like, I wish our. Our cameras
are on because my, my eyes lit
up when you spoke about, you know,
sharing more wisdom, especially from indigenous and
(37:38):
like, indigenous communities and women, because I'm
actually working on a workbook with a
therapist and like, the huge basis of
it is, you know, practices from indigenous
communities, from African communities. So because we're
so used to a lot of the
information on healing out there being given
(38:00):
to us by sources that don't look
like us or, you know, from places
that were originally taken from, like you
said, giving credit to, because it's originally
taken from somewhere else and it's served
to us by people that don't look
like us. So I think everything you
said is so important.
Dr. Thema Bryant (38:20):
Oh, thank you. I love that you're
working on that. Doing that work is
so. Yeah, that's so important.
Makini Smith (38:28):
Yes, yes. So, okay, what does success
look like for you beyond professional accolades?
Like, how do you measure fulfillment in
your own life?
Dr. Thema Bryant (38:39):
Yes. So success is living authentically and
having nourishing, loving relationships. And I am
happy to be in a place of
both authentically being myself, showing up as
(39:03):
myself, not being so dominated by other
voices that I censor or Stifle myself
and then. Yes, having loving, nourishing relationships.
So, you know, not just being on
the fast track of what we can
(39:24):
accomplish as individuals, but. Yeah, attending to
matters of the heart.
Makini Smith (39:32):
Yes.
Dr. Thema Bryant (39:35):
Yes.
Makini Smith (39:39):
So in matters of the heart, I
believe it provides a roadmap to greater
fulfillment in relationships. If listeners could take
away just one key message from the
book, what would you want it to
be?
Dr. Thema Bryant (39:54):
I would say to invest time and
energy in nourishing your relationships, to not
neglect people or take people for granted,
but to allow the people in your
life whom you love for them to
(40:17):
actually feel that love and for them
to feel that they are priorities.
Makini Smith (40:24):
Yeah, that's powerful. How do, how do
you balance your own emotional and spiritual
well being while holding space for so
many others in their healing journeys?
Dr. Thema Bryant (40:38):
Yes. So the big word for me
is mutuality and reciprocity. So, you know,
while I pour out or give out
as a professor, as a therapist, as
a minister, I'm also very intentional about
(40:59):
having relationships that are mutual, where I
give and I receive. And that is
so important to break out of that
mold of like, I have to be
the strong one or I have to
be on for everyone else. But for
me to be intentional about having relationships
(41:21):
and friendships where I can unfold, where
I can be present, where I can
receive as well as give.
Makini Smith (41:32):
I love that. So I'm. I'm thinking
about a couple of previous episodes that
we've done around Mother Wounds and when
it comes to matters of the heart,
I guess, what advice would you give
to the women that are listening that
don't have great relationships with their mothers,
(41:53):
that didn't get the love and nourishment
as a child that they may have
needed, that affected their, you know, their
connections or how they view connections today.
Dr. Thema Bryant (42:04):
Yeah. I would first say that you
deserved better and that there is nothing
about you that disqualified you from being
mothered. Well, that the ways your mother
(42:26):
did not show up for you or
showed up in harmful ways was about
her own brokenness and her own unhealed
wounds and her own lack of capacity
to see the truth of you, the
(42:48):
essence of you, and to not be
threatened by it, but to pour into
you. She didn't have either the will
or the capacity to give you what
you needed, and you deserved that. And
(43:09):
you also don't have to be stuck
as a result of that. Instead of
remaining still and stuck in a place
of asking why that, I encourage you
to shift the question from why to
(43:29):
what now? Right. There will never be
a satisfactory response to why you didn't
get it from her. You know, you
may start to understand parts of it
if you look at her as a
human being, not just as a mother,
but. But at this stage, at this
point in your life, you can begin
(43:53):
to ask, what do I want to
give myself now? And what do I
want to position myself to receive from
those who have the capacity and the
will to give it to me? And
so we can reparent ourselves, we can
(44:14):
mother ourselves, we can nourish ourselves by
giving ourselves the things that we did
not get to give ourselves. The care,
the compassion, the understanding, the valuing, the
priority that we wish we had gotten
(44:34):
from someone else. So I will pour
into me and I will see me,
and I will set boundaries for me
so that I can be loved.
Makini Smith (44:46):
Well, love it. I think we'll have
to make that entire thing a soundbite
like.
Dr. Thema Bryant (44:56):
Wonderful.
Makini Smith (44:57):
That was beautiful.
Dr. Thema Bryant (45:00):
Thank you.
Makini Smith (45:01):
You're welcome. You often speak about the
importance of community and connection. So for
those who feel isolated, what are some
step that they can take to find
and cultivate their own support system?
Dr. Thema Bryant (45:15):
Yes. So I would say one, you
can deepen the connections you already have.
Sometimes we know people, but we keep
them very surface or we treat it
like an acquaintance. And transparency can be
contagious. If I'm talking to someone who
(45:36):
becomes more real, then often I will
become more real or more transparent as
well. So instead of just saying like,
oh, everybody's just fake, or everybody's just
surface to consider, some of those people
are waiting for an opportunity to go
deeper. Right. And so instead of us
(45:59):
assuming they can't meet us there to
share something that's more authentic. Right. Instead
of, how are you? I'm fine, how
are you? I'm blessed, you know, how
are you? I'm spectacular. To give a
more honest answer. So that's a easy
way to start. With the connections I
have, let me try to share something
(46:21):
more real. And no, not everyone's going
to meet you there. Some people are
going to be like, oh, like, they
didn't want to hear all of that.
Then there are going to be other
people who are like, oh, wow, finally
someone's being real. Right. So deepen the
connections that you already have and then
open yourself to widening your circle. Sometimes
(46:43):
we prioritize loyalty over fulfillment. So we're
just keeping connections with people, and it's
not nourishing, it's not fulfilling. But just
so we can say, oh, we've been
friends since the fifth grade. Well, okay.
Right. I'm not saying that we have
(47:05):
to eliminate everybody, but broaden your circle.
Right. Say, let me try to meet
some new people, which will also require
us taking initiative. Right. Not to always
wait for someone to invite us, but
let's invite someone else to lunch or
(47:25):
to have tea or to make some
connection.
Makini Smith (47:30):
Great advice. Love it.
Dr. Thema Bryant (47:31):
Love it.
Makini Smith (47:33):
Before we go to the final segment
of the show, I would love if
you could tell the listeners where they
can stay connected with you, where they
can learn more from you and about
you, where they can buy your books.
Dr. Thema Bryant (47:44):
Wonderful. Yes, My website is Dr. Tama.com
D R T H E M A.
You can follow me on Instagram, Dr.
DrPeriod and then Tama. I'm also on
X and on TikTok. You can find
(48:05):
my books everywhere that books are sold.
So at major bookstores and then at
independent bookstores, which we always want to
encourage people to support. I want to
also say if you, if you don't
consider yourself a big reader, that's okay.
The book is also available in an
(48:27):
audio version and so I'm reading the
book to you and would love for
you to listen and or read it
for yourself. And my events page is
on my website that will let you
know if I'm coming to your city
or to a place close by.
Makini Smith (48:48):
Love it. Love it, love it. I
will have all of your links in
the detailed section of the episode so
they don't have to search too far.
They can just click and connect.
Dr. Thema Bryant (48:56):
Wonderful.
Makini Smith (48:59):
So the final segment of the show
is kind of like a rapid fire.
You can answer one word or one
sentence. But I also don't like to
box people in. So if you feel
the need to expand, you're more than
welcome to do so.
Dr. Thema Bryant (49:10):
Okay, thanks.
Makini Smith (49:12):
Okay, first question. Name one simple, actionable
step listeners can take to begin healing
their hearts.
Dr. Thema Bryant (49:22):
Tell yourself the truth.
Makini Smith (49:26):
Love it. Name a book that has
changed or greatly impacted your life.
Dr. Thema Bryant (49:33):
I Dance with God. Written by my
mother, Cecilia Bryant.
Makini Smith (49:38):
Love it. What would you say is
your superpower healing? Love it. If you
could describe yourself in one word, what
would it be?
Dr. Thema Bryant (49:53):
Dancing.
Makini Smith (49:56):
When was the last time you cried?
Dr. Thema Bryant (49:59):
Probably last week. Missing my mom.
Makini Smith (50:04):
When was the last time you apologized
to someone?
Dr. Thema Bryant (50:09):
Oh, probably my partner. Which is always
important to own your stuff. When you
make a mistake.
Makini Smith (50:22):
When and where are you the happiest?
Dr. Thema Bryant (50:25):
Oh, in my circle of sisters called
the Gathering Sisters, we laugh a lot
and can cry and learn from each
other.
Makini Smith (50:38):
Love it. Okay, last but not least,
what do you wish women would do
more of?
Dr. Thema Bryant (50:46):
Roar. Love it.
Makini Smith (50:55):
Thank you so much, Dr. Tama. For
not only sharing your time and your
energy with us, but for your expertise
and your transparency. I truly, truly appreciate
you.
Dr. Thema Bryant (51:06):
Oh thank you so much. I really
enjoyed the conversation and love the work
you're doing.
Makini Smith (51:13):
Thank you. If you enjoyed today's conversation,
don't forget to pour into yourself too.
My latest book, Shades of youf, is
a celebration of black beauty and self
care through coloring, journaling and affirmations. So
relax, reflect and express yourself and grab
your copy on Amazon or@mckinneysmith.com and to
(51:36):
all of my healers out there, thank
you for tuning in. Because of you,
we rank globally in the top 1.5%
of most popular podcast out there. If
today's episode resonated with you, please subscribe,
rate the show, and leave us a
review and let us know your thoughts
on Apple Podcasts. Now, I want to
challenge you to think of two women
(51:58):
that need to hear what Dr. Tama
shared today. If you benefited from this
conversation, I'm sure they will too. Screenshot
this episode and you can tag Dr.
Tamar.t h e m a you can
tag myself hereal McKaney Smith and let's
(52:19):
keep this conversation going. A healthy community
is a healing community, and a healing
community is full of hope. So let's
continue to heal her.
I'm Makini Smith. After going through a
divorce, my sister passing away, experiencing narcissistic
abuse and some significant health scares, I
realized through sharing my story that I
wasn't alone in my suffering. Suffering, subjective
distress generated by the experience of being
out of balance in a deep dive
to holistically heal mind, body and soul
(00:22):
is where I discovered peace, clarity and
connection. It is impossible to be truly
wise without some real life hardship and
we cannot develop post traumatic wisdom without
making it through and most importantly, through
it together. Social connection builds resilience and
resilience helps create post traumatic wisdom. And
(00:45):
that wisdom leads to hope. Hope for
you and others, witnessing and participating in
your healing and hope for your community.
A healthy community is a healing community
and a healing community is full of
hope because it has seen its own
people weather survive and thrive. This episode
(01:23):
is brought to you by Shades of
youf, an affirmation journal coloring book to
help you find peace, clarity and connection.
I created this book with Black women
in mind, relaxation, creativity and self love
Wrapped in one. Shades of youf is
an adult coloring book created for Black
(01:44):
women to celebrate their beauty, strength and
diversity of our experiences. So take a
break, de stress and express yourself with
empowering illustrations. Available now on Amazon or@mckinneysmith.com
Today's guest is Dr. Tama Bryant. She's
(02:05):
a psychologist, author, professor, sacred artist and
minister who is leading the way in
creating healthy relationships, healing traumas and overcoming
stress and oppression. Dr. Tama is the
author of the newly released book Matters
of the Heart which aims to empower
readers to connect with themselves and to
(02:25):
others, delving into topics such as control
issues, emotional unavailability, practical activation activities, case
studies, and teaching how to shift mindset
and patterns around romance. Dr. Tama Bryant
completed her doctorate in Clinical Psychology at
(02:46):
Duke University and her post doctoral training
at Harvard Medical Center's Victims of Violence
Program. Most recently, she was the 2023
president of the American Psychological Association APA
and is the host of the Homecoming
Podcast. So please welcome to the show
(03:09):
Dr. Tama.
Dr. Thema Bryant (03:10):
Oh, thank you for having me.
Makini Smith (03:14):
Thank you so, so much. I am
always honored when incredible women yourself agree
to come on and share not only
just your story and your expertise, but
your time and your energy. I do
not take that lightly. You could be
anywhere in the world right now and
I'm honored that you are here with
us.
Dr. Thema Bryant (03:34):
Well, I am honored by your invitation
and thank you for holding space for
our healing.
Makini Smith (03:40):
It's. It's been a huge part of
my journey and I strongly Believe that,
you know, when we learn something, we
should teach it to others. So as
I've been evolving and on my own
healing journey over the last. I'm going
to say it's almost seven years since
we've had this podcast. It has been
an honor to have guests on every
week to share their stories and their
(04:00):
expertise so that we are globally, you
know, creating conversations about healing.
Dr. Thema Bryant (04:05):
Yes. Well, congratulations. That really is an
accomplishment to keep it going over the
years.
Makini Smith (04:14):
Thank you. Thank you. So I like
to start the show with a bit
of an icebreaker question, just to kind
of get to know, I guess, who
you were before society or culture or
even our families, you know, limited our.
Our beliefs. So I would love to
know, you know, what is your earliest
childhood memory that defines who you are
(04:35):
today?
Dr. Thema Bryant (04:37):
So my earliest memory is funny as
things go full circle, but I was
in preschool, and I was asked what
I want it to be when I
grow up, and I said, I want
it to be a house for the
homeless. I was told that a person
(05:00):
can't be a house, so you have
to pick something else. That resonates with
me because my first book for the
public was called Homecoming. And someone said
to me, well, you did know what
you were talking about. You became a
house as a psychologist and a minister,
(05:23):
that you're a house. And so I
love that.
Makini Smith (05:28):
I love it. I love it. Okay.
You have had such an incredible journey,
you know, from earning your doctorate and
writing transformative books. What inspired you to
dedicate your career to psychology, healing, and
empowerment?
Dr. Thema Bryant (05:45):
Well, growing up. Well, first, let me
say there's a story in our conscious
mind, and then there's, like, an unconscious
story. Right. So my conscious answer to
that question has usually been that my
father was a pastor. And so growing
up, I often saw him doing pastoral
(06:08):
care and counseling, and people would often
call our home when they were in
distress. And I've always been what would
be considered a sensitive soul. And then
when I heard about the field of
psychology, it matched with me wanting to
bear witness and be present for people
(06:30):
as they walk through the difficulties of
life. And so that's, you know, the
story of my awareness is my father
as pastoral counselor. And so then me
becoming a psychologist is no big surprise.
The deeper story is having grown up
with a mother who lived with depression
(06:53):
and anxiety that for my, during my
childhood years, was undiagnosed and untreated. Later,
I'm grateful that she did receive the
diagnosis and receive services. It also became
very vocal in talking about her own
mental health journey. So that's the deeper
(07:15):
part of the story of knowing intimately
and deeply the impact on the person,
on the family, of mental illness.
Makini Smith (07:28):
I strongly believe after, you know, almost
seven years of recording this podcast, that
our pain births our purpose. Everyone that
has come on the show and spoken
about, you know, what they do and
how they serve, it's connected to them
transmuting their pain into purpose somehow.
Dr. Thema Bryant (07:48):
Yes, absolutely. So it's, you know, what
do we do instead of being in
shame and silence? It's like, what does
your story prepare you for, inform you,
for, launch you into, if you own
the fullness of it?
Makini Smith (08:09):
Yeah. So speaking of our stories, your.
Your latest book, Matters of the Heart,
it's deeply rooted in emotional connection and
self discovery. So was there a pivotal
moment in your life that shaped your
understanding of relationships and healing?
Dr. Thema Bryant (08:26):
Yes. So I dedicated the book to
my mom, and actually last year she
died of breast cancer. And thank you
so much. And the reason it's dedicated
to her is she loved deeply and
fiercely, and I would say as a
(08:47):
result, it gave me a secure foundation.
You show up to life differently when
there is someone who, like, deeply loves
you and is cheering for you. And
so it, you know, brought to my
mind the awareness of both the gift
(09:08):
of loving connection and the challenges that
are created when that is not present.
So desiring for each of us to
have that, whether that's from a biological
parent or from someone else, to have
a secure base by which you know,
(09:28):
you are loved, known, believed in, prayed
for, hoped for, for you to do
well in life, that is so healing
and empowering.
Makini Smith (09:43):
And so, okay, you, you talked about
your, your father being a pastor growing
up, and you yourself are now ordained.
And, you know, in the field that
you're in, you merge faith and science
in your work. How do you feel?
I guess your spiritual background has influenced
(10:05):
your approach to mental health and relationships.
Dr. Thema Bryant (10:08):
Yes. So it allows me to show
up more holistically, you know, the roots
of psychology. Actually, psychology means the study
of the soul. And those who are
accredited, you know, with being early pioneers
in the field were largely people of
faith. But then there was a shift
(10:30):
where as a field, we wanted to
prove ourselves to be a science. And
so there was a distancing from anything
that could not be proven. And so
I'm, you know, mindful as a person
of faith and someone who grew up
with faith of the research that shows
(10:51):
women and people of color endorse a
higher level of spirituality and religiosity. And
so then who is harmed when, as
a field, we Pathologize or put down
people of faith. And so to not
make people feel like they have to
(11:12):
choose of, like, am I going to
pray or am I going to therapy?
Am I going to meditate or am
I going to therapy? And that's such
a false, unnecessary choice. But for us
to be able to use all of
the different aspects of ourselves for our
healing and for our wholeness.
Makini Smith (11:34):
You know, what I. What I love
and appreciate about yourself and the others
that have come on that are in
the mental health and mental wellness space
is the breaking the stigma that, you
know, especially if, you know, all of
the people that I've been connected to
that go to church or that are
(11:54):
religious or spiritual, the belief that, you
know, you can pray it away or
that you can, you know, you only
have prayer or the church to help
you get through what you need to.
And I deeply appreciate the open conversations
and the knowledge that both, you know,
therapy and, you know, prayer and faith
(12:17):
can go hand in hand because I
have seen people use that to hurt
other people or make other people feel
shame for seeking additional help.
Dr. Thema Bryant (12:28):
Yeah, it has been so unfortunate and
a disservice to people. I actually had
a pastor confide in me how he
felt so bad that for so many
years, he told members of his congregation,
don't let people medicate your child. Don't
(12:50):
let people diagnose your child. And then
he ended up having a son with
ADHD who was greatly helped and relieved
by getting therapy and medication. And, you
know, he lives with, you know, the
guilt of the number of families that
(13:10):
were misguided by his lack of knowledge.
Makini Smith (13:14):
Mm. Mm. So when I hear stories
like that, like, for me, that. That
hits home because I feel like oftentimes
there are people that are in positions
that could be using their influence and
their power to help people, and due
to ignorance or lack of knowledge, they're
(13:34):
hurting people. You know, it's against what
they wanted to do. You know, we
don't know what we don't know. But
oftentimes I look at, especially where I'm
getting advice from, I don't like to
take advice from people that I wouldn't
want to switch places with. So, you
know, if I'm coming to someone for,
I don't know, parenting advice, I prefer
to go to a parent that I
(13:56):
see, you know, has healthy relationship with
their children or, you know, relationship advice
from someone who was in a healthy
relationship.
Dr. Thema Bryant (14:07):
Yeah, it's true. To be able to
observe people. And as my mom used
to say, it does matter how you
Treat people because people can present with
all kinds of wisdom and knowledge or
charisma. But in the end, how do
people feel in their presence? Do people
(14:27):
feel honored or dishonored? Seen or not
seen, Valued or devalued?
Makini Smith (14:34):
That's big. Yeah, yeah. Early in your
career, you worked with trauma survivors, correct?
Dr. Thema Bryant (14:42):
Yes.
Makini Smith (14:43):
So how did that experience shape the
way that you view healing and resilience?
Dr. Thema Bryant (14:48):
It is important, I would say, not
only from my practice, but from my
lived experience. So I'm a trauma survivor,
Survivor of sexual assault and then also
experiencing and seeing community violence. Growing up
in Baltimore and then in high school.
For two years, I lived in Liberia,
(15:11):
West Africa. The first year was amazing.
The second year, unfortunately, a civil war
broke out. So I have seen violence
and trauma on multiple levels. And so
knowing both from working with clients and
my own testimony that restoration is possible,
that there can be more to our
(15:33):
stories than what is done to us,
but that we then get to take
the pen and write the next chapter
of our lives. And so it allows
me to come to this work with
a hope and a faith that we
(15:54):
can reclaim ourselves. We will never be
who we were before the violation. We
don't get to erase it, but we
can reclaim our joy, our trust, our
intimacy, our confidence that those things can
(16:15):
be rebuilt.
Makini Smith (16:18):
I love that. And I strongly believe,
like, you know, when. When we are
able to be an example and show
other people, like, if it's possible for
me, it's possible for you, too. Yeah.
Okay. So in your latest book, Matters
of the Heart, it touches on control
(16:38):
issues and emotional unavailability. So I want
to touch on some of that because
a lot of our listeners have been,
I'm going to say, with us since
a few years ago when I shared
about my experience with narcissistic abuse. So
I would love if you could share
what are some of the most common
relationship patterns that prevent people from forming
(17:02):
deeper connections?
Dr. Thema Bryant (17:04):
Yeah. So, first of all, thank you
for sharing your story, your testimony, and
I'm glad that you survived it, you
know, because that is one of the
things I think that is freeing for
a lot of people is the word
of our own testimony. So grateful for
(17:26):
that. So, in terms of emotional unavailability,
you know, it's often rooted in anxiety
and insecurity. So the anxiety where based
on our own bad experiences or our
observations, perhaps growing up, of other dysfunctional
(17:49):
or abusive relationships, where we conclude that
people equal danger relationships, equal harm and
hurt, equal and violation and mistreatment. And
so then we can develop a style
(18:12):
of keeping things very surface because it
feels safe. And so, you know, you
can develop the capacity. It's actually a
skill that can work for you. Talking
a lot and saying nothing.
Makini Smith (18:29):
Right, Right.
Dr. Thema Bryant (18:32):
You can do that. And in some
places, that skill is needed. I tell
people like the workplace, a lot of
times promotions are based on relationships. So
if you just, like, put your head
down and work hard, you may not
be promoted because a part of it
is like your capacity to connect with
people, which, you know, it's one thing
(18:53):
if we're talking about in the workplace
keeping things surface, but then it can
create more issue or harm or problems
when our friends don't really know us
or our dating partners don't really know
us because we are performing or presenting
(19:15):
or sending our representative because we want
to be chosen and liked so can
figure out what do people want or
what do people like? And then I'm
going to present that so that I'm
acceptable to the person, but yet they
don't really know me. Right. So then
(19:37):
it's like a false intimacy or a
false connection. Another way that people can
hide. So one is, you know, we
can hide by not being our authentic
selves. People also can hide, but with
infidelity. So, you know, I just have
multiple relationships, but I keep everyone at
(20:00):
a distance. That's another way of not
really being emotionally present. We can also
hide with being a workaholic and a
perfectionist. So if I stay busy, that
is another tactic that can be distancing.
You know, I don't have time for
(20:21):
real connection. I don't have time for
you to really know me. And that
can also feel safer than slowing down
and actually being known.
Makini Smith (20:31):
Wow. You know, you listed, I'm going
to say a lot of traits of
my exes.
Dr. Thema Bryant (20:40):
Like, there. There they are. Yeah.
Makini Smith (20:43):
I mean, you know, in the moment,
right after, you know, you're angry, you're
going through all these feelings of, you
know, what happened to you. But then
when I got into my own healing
journey and started to understand more about,
you know, emotional unavailability and how their
traumas, you know, I guess caused them
to be the way that they are,
it helped me have more compassion and
(21:04):
grace. And I. I'm. I'm not saying
that what they did wasn't hurtful, but
at the same time, I can now
come from a place where it's. It's
like I actually feel sorry for these
people.
Dr. Thema Bryant (21:18):
Yeah. That you get to see. You
know, I think one of the things
in the healing afterwards can be knowing
that it's not all malicious. Right. That
they're not actually having a great time.
You know, it's one thing when you're
like, oh, my goodness, this person is
(21:39):
so selfish. They're having their joy at
my expense and then coming to the
reality that, yes, they're making me miserable
and they're miserable as well. Not that
I then need to save or rescue
them, but it just helps to understand,
like, what is really happening here.
Makini Smith (21:59):
You know, maybe you can, I guess,
expand on this, but like, a lot
of the women that come to me
about their, I'm gonna say, unhealthy relationships,
after they hear, you know, my story
or listen to parts of the podcast
or read my books, they. It's. It's
me helping them depersonalize the experience. Especially
with, you know, the, the narcissistic abuse
(22:20):
where it's like reminding them that you
could be anybody on the planet. You
could have been, you know, Sally, Sue,
Jessica, it doesn't matter. That behavior that
that person did is still going to
be the same. So that they can
not internalize that it was done specifically,
like, to them.
Dr. Thema Bryant (22:38):
Yes. Yeah, that's an important point because,
you know, one of the things that
people will often say is like, you
know, oh, there's something wrong with me
in terms of like, why I was
targeted or why I was chosen. And
similar to your point, what I discover
(22:59):
is people who operate like that, operate
like that with everyone. Right. So it's
just you're filling the slot at the
moment and they approach everyone with the
same intentions. So the part that can
be healing or empowering is not just
that around thinking I was chosen because
(23:23):
I have a problem, but to more
think about if they approach everyone this
way, it really is about how quickly
I recognize it and how long I
stay. That's my liberation is like, when
I see it showing up, you know,
(23:43):
someone approaches me with those dynamics that
instead of me, you know, with insecurity,
perhaps being okay with the breadcrumbing or
myself that I have to win them
over or I, like, it's my job
to make it work. That instead I
(24:05):
can recognize it sooner, see it for
what it is and be liberated by,
like, I don't have to participate in
this. So I. Yeah, then I can
get free sooner.
Makini Smith (24:19):
You know, when I first. I'm going
to say when I had my. I'm
going to say when I first had
the breakup with. I'm going to say
one of the most devastating breakups that
I probably had is probably about six
years, six, seven years ago, maybe. And
at the time, it was like, in
my mind, and eventually out loud, I
was like, I attract narcissists. Like, what.
(24:41):
What is it about me that I
need to change what is wrong with
me? And then, you know, I went
deeper into my healing journey and started
therapy and all the other things. And
it was, you know, understanding not only
my. My childhood growing up, but also
I thought I had boundaries, but learning
(25:02):
what. What healthy boundaries really are and
learning how to love myself and all
of the other things that I thought
at the time that I already knew
or that I was already doing. So
I guess, you know, many of us
carry unhealed wounds that affect our ability
to love fully. What are some first
steps people can take to identify and
(25:24):
address these wounds?
Dr. Thema Bryant (25:26):
Yeah. So it is really, in part
about becoming curious about yourself and about
other people so that you can start
to see the pattern. So then it's
like recognizing. Because it's often easier for
(25:50):
us to see other people, right? We
can say, like, oh, they're off, they're
off, they're off. Right. But it's like,
for me to have the humility and
the openness to see myself not in
a way of, like, shaming or blaming,
but just like that I am the
(26:11):
one that I can shift, right. Instead
of making other people my project of
how do I shift them? No, how
do I see me and shift me
so that I can begin to show
up in relationships in ways that actually
serve me, you know, in ways that
are healthy? So, you know, then when
(26:32):
I become curious about myself, it's like,
oh, okay, so this person either said
or showed early that they did not
really value me, and yet I went
out with them again. Right. That's the
part for me to see of, like,
what was the message I was telling
(26:53):
myself? So sometimes it can be the
scarcity piece, which is easy to believe
when you aren't seeing a lot of
options, right. Sometimes why do we stay?
It's like, well, nobody was showing up
that was treating me better or like
that, promising something better. So this felt
(27:15):
like my best option.
Makini Smith (27:17):
Right.
Dr. Thema Bryant (27:17):
So the things that was healing for
me was realizing I can choose none
of the above. Right. Sometimes we're choosing
the best out of a bunch of
bad options.
Makini Smith (27:33):
Right?
Dr. Thema Bryant (27:33):
So then it's like, can I tolerate
none of the above? Which may mean
that there's a season when I'm by
myself, and that's okay, that I'd rather
choose that than choose to continue with
mistreatment.
Makini Smith (27:53):
I know for me, one of the
biggest things was learning to retrust myself.
You know, my healing process was learning
to trust McKinney again.
Dr. Thema Bryant (28:02):
Yes.
Makini Smith (28:04):
So I guess with so many people
experiencing relational trauma, whether from family, friends,
or even romantic relationships, what advice do
you have for someone trying to rebuild
trust in others?
Dr. Thema Bryant (28:18):
Yes. So I would say look at
the people who you have trusted who
didn't let you down. It might not
always be romantic, but, you know, when
I can. Because if not, we'll have
this idea in our minds of, like,
(28:38):
everybody's trash. Everyone's a loser. Right. So,
like, I need some. Some wins. So
when I have opened my heart to
someone and they didn't end up being
a user or manipulator, what did that
look like? How did they treat me?
(29:01):
And what were the indications early on
that made me, you know, open up
in the ways that I did. Right.
And for us to also recognize that
these things can be gradual. Sometimes we're
giving people too much too soon, where,
(29:22):
like, either closed or we're giving everything
away, including the kitchen sink. So it's
like, you know, let me instead think
about the gradual growth so that I
can have time to see, you know,
who are people and what are the
ways they are showing up for me
(29:45):
or not showing up for me.
Makini Smith (29:47):
That's big. I can totally relate to
that because I feel like when I
was going through my experience, I could
have easily, easily said, you know, all
men are trash because of my experience
of choosing the wrong men. But when
I looked at the men around me
that do love me, that do show
(30:08):
me that are there for me, you
know, I have my father, I have
my male friends, I now have my
fiance, like, there are so many people
that were examples to help, I'm going
to say, shift my paradigm. So I
didn't stick to that belief that all
men are trash. I didn't lump them
in, you know, because I had proof
in my life that there were really
(30:30):
amazing men.
Dr. Thema Bryant (30:31):
Yes. I love that. Look for the
proof. And if you don't see it
in your life, in other people's lives,
that will give you hope. Right. So
that I'm not just surrounding myself with
everyone who has given up. Right. I've
given up. And everyone in my circle
is like, yes, you know, relationships suck.
All men suck. Then it's going to
(30:52):
keep me stuck. But hear the testimonies
of people who have had a good
experience and not to think that, oh,
they're the exception. Like, oh, they get
to have a good life. But I
don't. But to, you know, to borrow
that hope of, like, here are These
(31:13):
people who have had these unhealthy situations
similar to mine, and they remained open
or they were closed for a season
for their healing, they reopened their hearts
and like, some goodness met them there.
Makini Smith (31:30):
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's my story
right now where I closed myself off
for a few years to get really
into my healing and understand myself and
reconnected with a high school friend and
we've been together three and a half
years now. We're engaged, about to get
married. There's hope for my friends right
(31:53):
There is there?
Dr. Thema Bryant (31:54):
And it gives other people hope when
they hear those stories to know, like,
yeah, it's possible. I love that.
Makini Smith (32:04):
Yeah. Well, what are some practical exercises
or even daily habits that can help
someone cultivate a healthier approach to love?
Dr. Thema Bryant (32:13):
Yeah. So one of the things that
we can do is of course, start
with nourishing ourselves, because when I'm in
a defeated place, then that will make
me more likely to accept and expect
unhealthy treatment. So it's like, what have
(32:34):
you done for you lately? Right. To
love ourselves and nourish ourselves and not
just when we're burned out. Sometimes we
neglect ourselves and then, you know, we
physically or emotionally or spiritually break down
and then we try to do something
for ourselves. But I would say to
think about, for a daily practice, what
(32:56):
is a way I can love on
myself today? And those things don't have
to be like super expensive. I mean,
of course, if you have the resources,
you can treat yourself to certain things.
Right. But also so like, let me
love on myself with my rest, let
me love on myself with my nutrition.
(33:18):
Let me level myself in my boundary
setting to not tolerate or entertain things
that are not nourishing to me. Let
me level myself with my entertainment, like
do the shows I watch or the
social media accounts that I follow, do
(33:40):
they leave me feeling edified or leave
me feeling worse about myself? So we
can choose love in that way. And
then I would say in terms of
like making connections to open ourselves up
to love so that we're not just
(34:01):
in combat mode or self isolation mode,
but are we receptive to love? Right.
Are we receptive to connection and the
possibility of connection? Those things are really
helpful for nourishing our hearts.
Makini Smith (34:18):
Those are like, that's all amazing advice.
I think the listeners should rewind that
and actually take notes and write that
down.
Dr. Thema Bryant (34:27):
I love that.
Makini Smith (34:31):
You have had an enormous impact on
the field of psychology. What legacy do
you hope to leave behind in the
mental health space?
Dr. Thema Bryant (34:42):
I love that question. Thank you so
much.
Makini Smith (34:45):
You're welcome.
Dr. Thema Bryant (34:46):
So I would love a legacy of
liberation oriented mental health professionals who are
committed to promoting justice and love within
(35:08):
individuals, but also in terms of community
work. So working with the collective, which
in part is like this podcast of
giving our science away. Right. It should
not just be some exclusive thing that
is for like the wealthy or the
(35:29):
people with the highest level of education,
but finding ways to share wisdom, knowledge,
compassion that is accessible. So in podcasts
and in books that are written for
the public, in social media, in blogs,
(35:51):
finding ways to share the information and
then also highlighting wisdom from indigenous sources,
highlighting wisdom from wisdom from women so
that we're not buying into this notion
(36:11):
of, like, who are the real scientists,
right. That those are only white, straight,
cisgender men who are able bodied. But
recognizing wisdom in all of its various
sources and of course, crediting those sources
(36:34):
is very important. Not just taking the
knowledge, but like highlighting the various voices.
And then the last thing I would
say about legacy is wanting people to
know that healing is not just about
addressing the wounds of past hurts, but
(36:55):
instead about, or in addition about maximizing
growth and thriving and resilience and soaring.
So for us to be able to
live the fullness of our lives.
Makini Smith (37:12):
Amen. Amen.
Dr. Thema Bryant (37:14):
Amen.
Makini Smith (37:17):
I love it. You're speaking my language.
Yay. Thank you. Well, I, I love
everything that you said. And then my,
my, like, I wish our. Our cameras
are on because my, my eyes lit
up when you spoke about, you know,
sharing more wisdom, especially from indigenous and
(37:38):
like, indigenous communities and women, because I'm
actually working on a workbook with a
therapist and like, the huge basis of
it is, you know, practices from indigenous
communities, from African communities. So because we're
so used to a lot of the
information on healing out there being given
(38:00):
to us by sources that don't look
like us or, you know, from places
that were originally taken from, like you
said, giving credit to, because it's originally
taken from somewhere else and it's served
to us by people that don't look
like us. So I think everything you
said is so important.
Dr. Thema Bryant (38:20):
Oh, thank you. I love that you're
working on that. Doing that work is
so. Yeah, that's so important.
Makini Smith (38:28):
Yes, yes. So, okay, what does success
look like for you beyond professional accolades?
Like, how do you measure fulfillment in
your own life?
Dr. Thema Bryant (38:39):
Yes. So success is living authentically and
having nourishing, loving relationships. And I am
happy to be in a place of
both authentically being myself, showing up as
(39:03):
myself, not being so dominated by other
voices that I censor or Stifle myself
and then. Yes, having loving, nourishing relationships.
So, you know, not just being on
the fast track of what we can
(39:24):
accomplish as individuals, but. Yeah, attending to
matters of the heart.
Makini Smith (39:32):
Yes.
Dr. Thema Bryant (39:35):
Yes.
Makini Smith (39:39):
So in matters of the heart, I
believe it provides a roadmap to greater
fulfillment in relationships. If listeners could take
away just one key message from the
book, what would you want it to
be?
Dr. Thema Bryant (39:54):
I would say to invest time and
energy in nourishing your relationships, to not
neglect people or take people for granted,
but to allow the people in your
life whom you love for them to
(40:17):
actually feel that love and for them
to feel that they are priorities.
Makini Smith (40:24):
Yeah, that's powerful. How do, how do
you balance your own emotional and spiritual
well being while holding space for so
many others in their healing journeys?
Dr. Thema Bryant (40:38):
Yes. So the big word for me
is mutuality and reciprocity. So, you know,
while I pour out or give out
as a professor, as a therapist, as
a minister, I'm also very intentional about
(40:59):
having relationships that are mutual, where I
give and I receive. And that is
so important to break out of that
mold of like, I have to be
the strong one or I have to
be on for everyone else. But for
me to be intentional about having relationships
(41:21):
and friendships where I can unfold, where
I can be present, where I can
receive as well as give.
Makini Smith (41:32):
I love that. So I'm. I'm thinking
about a couple of previous episodes that
we've done around Mother Wounds and when
it comes to matters of the heart,
I guess, what advice would you give
to the women that are listening that
don't have great relationships with their mothers,
(41:53):
that didn't get the love and nourishment
as a child that they may have
needed, that affected their, you know, their
connections or how they view connections today.
Dr. Thema Bryant (42:04):
Yeah. I would first say that you
deserved better and that there is nothing
about you that disqualified you from being
mothered. Well, that the ways your mother
(42:26):
did not show up for you or
showed up in harmful ways was about
her own brokenness and her own unhealed
wounds and her own lack of capacity
to see the truth of you, the
(42:48):
essence of you, and to not be
threatened by it, but to pour into
you. She didn't have either the will
or the capacity to give you what
you needed, and you deserved that. And
(43:09):
you also don't have to be stuck
as a result of that. Instead of
remaining still and stuck in a place
of asking why that, I encourage you
to shift the question from why to
(43:29):
what now? Right. There will never be
a satisfactory response to why you didn't
get it from her. You know, you
may start to understand parts of it
if you look at her as a
human being, not just as a mother,
but. But at this stage, at this
point in your life, you can begin
(43:53):
to ask, what do I want to
give myself now? And what do I
want to position myself to receive from
those who have the capacity and the
will to give it to me? And
so we can reparent ourselves, we can
(44:14):
mother ourselves, we can nourish ourselves by
giving ourselves the things that we did
not get to give ourselves. The care,
the compassion, the understanding, the valuing, the
priority that we wish we had gotten
(44:34):
from someone else. So I will pour
into me and I will see me,
and I will set boundaries for me
so that I can be loved.
Makini Smith (44:46):
Well, love it. I think we'll have
to make that entire thing a soundbite
like.
Dr. Thema Bryant (44:56):
Wonderful.
Makini Smith (44:57):
That was beautiful.
Dr. Thema Bryant (45:00):
Thank you.
Makini Smith (45:01):
You're welcome. You often speak about the
importance of community and connection. So for
those who feel isolated, what are some
step that they can take to find
and cultivate their own support system?
Dr. Thema Bryant (45:15):
Yes. So I would say one, you
can deepen the connections you already have.
Sometimes we know people, but we keep
them very surface or we treat it
like an acquaintance. And transparency can be
contagious. If I'm talking to someone who
(45:36):
becomes more real, then often I will
become more real or more transparent as
well. So instead of just saying like,
oh, everybody's just fake, or everybody's just
surface to consider, some of those people
are waiting for an opportunity to go
deeper. Right. And so instead of us
(45:59):
assuming they can't meet us there to
share something that's more authentic. Right. Instead
of, how are you? I'm fine, how
are you? I'm blessed, you know, how
are you? I'm spectacular. To give a
more honest answer. So that's a easy
way to start. With the connections I
have, let me try to share something
(46:21):
more real. And no, not everyone's going
to meet you there. Some people are
going to be like, oh, like, they
didn't want to hear all of that.
Then there are going to be other
people who are like, oh, wow, finally
someone's being real. Right. So deepen the
connections that you already have and then
open yourself to widening your circle. Sometimes
(46:43):
we prioritize loyalty over fulfillment. So we're
just keeping connections with people, and it's
not nourishing, it's not fulfilling. But just
so we can say, oh, we've been
friends since the fifth grade. Well, okay.
Right. I'm not saying that we have
(47:05):
to eliminate everybody, but broaden your circle.
Right. Say, let me try to meet
some new people, which will also require
us taking initiative. Right. Not to always
wait for someone to invite us, but
let's invite someone else to lunch or
(47:25):
to have tea or to make some
connection.
Makini Smith (47:30):
Great advice. Love it.
Dr. Thema Bryant (47:31):
Love it.
Makini Smith (47:33):
Before we go to the final segment
of the show, I would love if
you could tell the listeners where they
can stay connected with you, where they
can learn more from you and about
you, where they can buy your books.
Dr. Thema Bryant (47:44):
Wonderful. Yes, My website is Dr. Tama.com
D R T H E M A.
You can follow me on Instagram, Dr.
DrPeriod and then Tama. I'm also on
X and on TikTok. You can find
(48:05):
my books everywhere that books are sold.
So at major bookstores and then at
independent bookstores, which we always want to
encourage people to support. I want to
also say if you, if you don't
consider yourself a big reader, that's okay.
The book is also available in an
(48:27):
audio version and so I'm reading the
book to you and would love for
you to listen and or read it
for yourself. And my events page is
on my website that will let you
know if I'm coming to your city
or to a place close by.
Makini Smith (48:48):
Love it. Love it, love it. I
will have all of your links in
the detailed section of the episode so
they don't have to search too far.
They can just click and connect.
Dr. Thema Bryant (48:56):
Wonderful.
Makini Smith (48:59):
So the final segment of the show
is kind of like a rapid fire.
You can answer one word or one
sentence. But I also don't like to
box people in. So if you feel
the need to expand, you're more than
welcome to do so.
Dr. Thema Bryant (49:10):
Okay, thanks.
Makini Smith (49:12):
Okay, first question. Name one simple, actionable
step listeners can take to begin healing
their hearts.
Dr. Thema Bryant (49:22):
Tell yourself the truth.
Makini Smith (49:26):
Love it. Name a book that has
changed or greatly impacted your life.
Dr. Thema Bryant (49:33):
I Dance with God. Written by my
mother, Cecilia Bryant.
Makini Smith (49:38):
Love it. What would you say is
your superpower healing? Love it. If you
could describe yourself in one word, what
would it be?
Dr. Thema Bryant (49:53):
Dancing.
Makini Smith (49:56):
When was the last time you cried?
Dr. Thema Bryant (49:59):
Probably last week. Missing my mom.
Makini Smith (50:04):
When was the last time you apologized
to someone?
Dr. Thema Bryant (50:09):
Oh, probably my partner. Which is always
important to own your stuff. When you
make a mistake.
Makini Smith (50:22):
When and where are you the happiest?
Dr. Thema Bryant (50:25):
Oh, in my circle of sisters called
the Gathering Sisters, we laugh a lot
and can cry and learn from each
other.
Makini Smith (50:38):
Love it. Okay, last but not least,
what do you wish women would do
more of?
Dr. Thema Bryant (50:46):
Roar. Love it.
Makini Smith (50:55):
Thank you so much, Dr. Tama. For
not only sharing your time and your
energy with us, but for your expertise
and your transparency. I truly, truly appreciate
you.
Dr. Thema Bryant (51:06):
Oh thank you so much. I really
enjoyed the conversation and love the work
you're doing.
Makini Smith (51:13):
Thank you. If you enjoyed today's conversation,
don't forget to pour into yourself too.
My latest book, Shades of youf, is
a celebration of black beauty and self
care through coloring, journaling and affirmations. So
relax, reflect and express yourself and grab
your copy on Amazon or@mckinneysmith.com and to
(51:36):
all of my healers out there, thank
you for tuning in. Because of you,
we rank globally in the top 1.5%
of most popular podcast out there. If
today's episode resonated with you, please subscribe,
rate the show, and leave us a
review and let us know your thoughts
on Apple Podcasts. Now, I want to
challenge you to think of two women
(51:58):
that need to hear what Dr. Tama
shared today. If you benefited from this
conversation, I'm sure they will too. Screenshot
this episode and you can tag Dr.
Tamar.t h e m a you can
tag myself hereal McKaney Smith and let's
(52:19):
keep this conversation going. A healthy community
is a healing community, and a healing
community is full of hope. So let's
continue to heal her.
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