September 8, 2025 • 21 mins
What if you could run a 116-property hotel portfolio without a single traditional front desk? In this episode of Hotel Tech Insider, Julius Anders, Head of Operations at Numa, reveals how his team is redefining hospitality with technology at its core.
Key Takeaways:
- AI-Driven Decision Making: How Numa uses data, automation, and AI to save up to 60% in payroll costs.
- Guest Experience Reimagined: What a fully digital guest journey looks like—from booking to checkout—without a front desk.
- Build vs. Buy Strategy: Why Numa develops 60% of its tech in-house and how that shapes innovation and operational agility.
With consumer behavior shifting and traditional hotel models under pressure, this conversation offers a roadmap for future-ready operations.
👉 Subscribe to Hotel Tech Insider on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and share this episode with a colleague shaping the future of hotel operations.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There's so many properties of that size in great
locations, old operating modelswith 24 staffing, who at some
stage, when they need to refurb,that model doesn't work anymore.
At latest then, they need to beable to innovate and change and
adapt their model. The earlierthey do it, the more you are
benefiting from it.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
From Hotel Tech Report, it's Hotel Tech Insider,
a show about the future ofhotels and the technology that
powers them.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Today, we're speaking with Julius Ambers, the Head of
Operations at Numa. Numaoperates 160 tech forward hotels
across Europe, and none of theirproperties have traditional
staffed front desks. In thisepisode, we talk through Numa's
tech stack, how their multilingual operations team works
together through a purpose builtapp, and how they use AI to make
(00:49):
better decisions. Let's dive in.Thanks so much for joining the
podcast.
To get started and kick thingsoff, I would love for you to
introduce yourself. Tell us abit about your role and your
company.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thanks for having me. I'm Julius, talent manager and
task for Loomar. We are anoperator, very digitalized,
using quite a lot of automationand AI in our day to days. Five
and a half years old now,founded in summer twenty
nineteen, focused Central Europeout of Berlin in Germany, and
(01:24):
I've been part of the journeyfor the last five and a half
years heading the operations. Mybackground is in traditional
hospitality, so I graduated fromCaesar Ritz University
Switzerland and CornellUniversity in The US, and have
had a fair share of experienceacross Europe.
Stint management trainee withMandarin Rental in Asia,
(01:45):
Malaysia, been the luxury highend, high touch end, as well as
done quite a few openings inLondon, where you have high net
worth individuals, high demands,very dynamic market during the
Olympics twenty twelve. Greatexperiences there. And then
ventured a bit off into theboutique hotel, lifestyle,
hospitality, where it's aboutbuilding a platform which
(02:08):
produces personalization really,but streamlines the process in
the background and looks at howguest experience can be elevated
by the physical product design,right, and atmosphere. And then
NUMA, or back in the days, COSI,rang, and we started speaking,
and I joined him around foundingstage, or just after founding
stage, as the operationsdirector to lead the operations,
(02:32):
and hence, being part of thisjourney from the first building
to now. I think we have roughly160 old buildings live.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
So tell me a bit about Pneuma. How many
properties do you operate andwhat would you say makes Pneuma
different than competitors inthe space?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
So Pneuma, we operate 160 properties roughly right
now, changing on a daily basisas we are trying to have a
growth journey right now, whichequals to around about 10,000
units or hotel rooms. We have abig focus on the apartment
market, meaning not allproperties but across the
(03:12):
portfolio around 75 to 80% ofour units have a kitchenette or
some form of kitchen. So wecater to that slightly longer
length of stay, which helps usfrom a cost efficiency
perspective, as well as givingour real estate partners a bit
of the protection forresidential products, right? We
are mainly in key cities wherethere's residential compression
(03:34):
in the market. So we're able tohave that base covered or have a
bit of longer length of stay,have a more consistent cash
flow, and then we're able toyield on top with the short
stay, which makes it quiteattractive from a business case
perspective.
Yes. And what makes us unique?We started off with the idea of
of building a hospitality brandfor the twenty first century
(03:57):
with the tools of the twentyfirst century. Right? And those
tools are majorlydigitalization, right, in the
broader scheme.
And we really went out therehaving a wide canvas, and that's
also one of the reasons I joinedNoomar. I'll still remember a
conversation with our CTO,Gerhard Maringa, and co founder,
(04:18):
who basically said, how do wedecide on what technology do we
want to use? And I was like, somany options out there. He was
like, really simple. We look atthe problem, we look what's in
the market, and we think we canbid it better or cheaper in
house, we'll do it ourselves.
And that was such a pragmaticapproach towards technology and
designing your tech stack. Thiswhite canvas approach I really
(04:40):
liked, and this is how we tackleevery problem we had. So
therefore, our operation hasvery little legacy in terms of
traditional sense or thetraditional tel industry sees
legacy. So we really build atech stack fit for the future,
very API first driven, so allabout connectivity, using data
points, having a good sampledatabase, Using data in every
(05:02):
decision making process, I thinkthat's one of the major
differences in our day to day.And then obviously, nowadays
using AI to help dealing withthat data from sentiment
analysis, through executivesummaries, through trend
analysis in region patterns, allthose things.
I think it's, yeah, quitehelpful. So I think that's the
(05:22):
major difference. And due to thetechnology, we can save around
60% of our operational payrollcosts, which in comparison to a
traditional three star hotel,which is a huge advantage and
gives out that firing power tobe aggressive on the growth
side, to have a really solidbalance sheet, to invest into
technology and people. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Well, there's so much to unpack there. I first want to
ask you mentioned the founderapproach technology with the
mindset of should we build it orbuy it? And how did that shape
your current tech stack? Do youhave a lot of features that are
built in house, or did you endup buying most of the systems
(06:04):
you use?
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I would say it's probably sixty forty. So 60
built, 40 bought. Right? Verydifficult to say of where does
your operational tech stackstart and where does it finish.
So I think we have a PMS, whichis bought off the shelf.
Right? So we work with Apaleohere, who have a very API first
(06:29):
platform, which helps you reallyfrom using that as your
foundational base or core piece,and you can then build around
and our Apaleo function doesn'tlook at all anymore like the
Apaleo which comes off theshelf. Right? So our tech team
has a great done a great job attailor making it, adapting it to
our use case. That's, I think,one key operational element
(06:50):
which is bought.
And then we have decided tobuild what is the core for our
day to day operation ourselves,or a operational app. We call it
Chine. It's basically started asa housekeeping app to be able to
communicate to the cleanerswhich rooms are vacant and to be
cleaned and which not. And bynow it is an app in I think 17
(07:11):
languages, which can trackmaintenance tasks, cleaning
tasks, has forecasting functionin there, has ability to track
cleaning scores per cleaner perroom category to look at trends.
In the back end, you see thedata, can see measured
productivity, all those things.
(07:33):
And really, it's a backbone,it's a communication tool for
our day to day operation.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Can you talk me through the process of an idea
to a feature that's in the wild?So if someone on the ground has
an idea for something that needsto be built, How do you think
through whether to search for avendor that has already created
that or building it in house?
Speaker 1 (07:57):
I think by now we are at a stage it's about fine
tuning, right? It's not anymoreabout reinventing the wheel. So
this is why Canvas has already alot of color on it right now.
And it's about squeezing thelast percentages of efficiency
out there and staying up to datewith market trends. And
especially with AI now, I thinkthere's massive leaps on how to
(08:19):
go the next step in thatdevelopment.
So if there's an idea, what weusually do I mean, usually
before an idea, there's aproblem. Right? And the problem
is either it's staffing costsand efficiency, time, it's guest
satisfaction, right, or it's afinancial drive where we say we
can uplift, right, eitherrevenues or cost, reduced cost.
(08:43):
So that's the basis. And then welook at how can we tackle this?
How can we optimize it? So we'redoing a lot of those why are we
doing things questions. Right?So quite often, we look at our
all our invoices, and wechallenge each individual
invoice line. Is there a way ofchanging this?
Right? Is there a way ofoptimizing this? And then we're
asking those questions anddeliberately asking those
(09:03):
questions, not from people whohave always worked with those
partners in that way, I think isa massive advantage Numener has
of having a lot of people whohave no traditional hospitality
background in key decisions. Sothey look at certain processes
and certain mechanisms from adifferent angle. I think that
helps challenging.
So having a wide portfolio ofknowledge and experience, I
(09:24):
think is that's initiated thatdrive to change, right? And then
what we have is, I actually likethat, call it product
ambassadors. So across the boardin the operations team, we have
high potential individuals inall the different roles from
senior management to reallyfrontline employees who devote a
(09:46):
certain time of their week to aSlack channel called product
optimization, right, at the end.And so ideas are just dumped in
there, right? And then they talkabout it.
And this is basically where ourproduct manager then gets his
inspiration from, where he haslive feedback to what's
happening day to day on theground, where he can beta test
(10:08):
ideas, where rollout plans canbe discussed, where exhaust it's
it's like an audience whichhelps who is doing the job on a
day to day basis, and it helpsco create the product they work
with afterwards. So it's notsomething which comes off the
shelf and it's not adapted.Right? So I think the language
piece, as an example, shows youwith whatever we develop, we
(10:30):
always look at how is itimplemented and how is it
adapted in day to day. And thishelps us, or we're able to do
that with having this productambassador group.
And then the idea at the endgets written down and
conceptualized andprofessionalized and planned.
And then we, the productmanager, well as some operations
senior management, really lookat, okay, what's the efficiency
(10:51):
gain of this? Or what's theimpact on the P and L? And then
you can do an ROI calculation onit. And then there's a very
strict prioritization.
Because I think there's so muchpotential on digitalizing,
optimizing processes that we aresometimes overwhelmed of where
to start. So prioritization iskey there to really look at what
(11:13):
delivers an impact in the shortrun, in the long run, and where
do we want to focus now, right,from a strategic perspective.
And then it gets on the roadmap,and then the tech team is
rolling it out. And thenusually, quarter to four months
later, you're gonna hear, thereit is. We're gonna go live.
And then the training team getsinvolved to write the the
roundup plan, the training plan,and then we go left. Then we
(11:36):
monitor if the synergies arethere as expected. There's
always going be some fine tuningso on needed, but it's a living
organism. And I think we have amindset at Pneuma which supports
this imperfection because thereis always a certain imperfection
until something isprofessionalized. You will not
have the perfect solution offthe shelf and the same speed as
(11:56):
we are growing.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Can you talk me through the different tech touch
points that a guest wouldexperience during their stay?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
We're starting with booking. Right? That starts
where the expectation managementstarts, where the tech journey
starts, really. So preferably onour website, numastays.com,
right, where they can then book,go through the booking process,
pay for their stay, register,and then ideally, in that
moment, they're already promptedto upload their ID to fill in
(12:29):
the registration cards becausethen it's all done. Right?
They get the bookingconfirmation. If they haven't
filled in the ID, then they geta reminder notification, a few
weeks out, a few days out,etcetera. Right? And at the end,
they get the evening beforetheir check-in, they get the
WhatsApp or push notification ifthey have downloaded our app
already with all the keyinformation. And then then they
(12:53):
itself, they gotta get a roomnumber.
They're gonna get their personalPIN codes to use their room, and
from what time it is available,and where it is located,
directions, all theopportunities, recommendations,
or what's happening in the localmarket, etc. And on checkout,
they basically can scan a QRcode on the door when they
leave, leave reviews and checkout, which we need in order for
(13:15):
our housekeeping team to knowthe room is empty, because only
once they know the room isempty, it shows in the app as a
room to be cleaned. So you avoidthat housekeeper running around
the corridors at 8AM in themorning, waking up all the
guests. Right? Because they onlyknow which room is dirty or to
be cleaned once the guests checkout.
So we have that element, or theycan just confirm it in the app
(13:36):
that they departed or via aWhatsApp reminder, which they
confirm. So there's severaloptions here.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
I wanted to double click into your real estate
partnerships. I'm guessing thatPneuma is a management company
and then there's a differentparty that owns.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah. We don't own any real estate. We rent either
on fixed leases, hybrid leases,or pure management deals. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Do the ownership groups have much interaction
with the Pneuma team day to day?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Depending a bit on the contractual situation, there
are reporting obligations,right, from annual statements
through monthly statements, andthen from pure high level
financial reporting throughreally granular operational and
qualitative reporting, dependinga bit on who bears the risk in
the contract relationship. Soyeah, there is a communication.
(14:28):
Yes, definitely. At the end,such a hospitality asset has a
value and any investor or realestate owner wants to make sure
that we are taking care of theirvalue, right, of the assets. And
therefore there is acommunication that we have more
and more real estate partnerswho we have multiple properties
with, which is also I thinkpositive testament to our
(14:49):
ability to deliver on rents andon strong balance sheets as well
as on the final product.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Switching gears a little bit. So drawing on your
experience at Numa and with thehotel companies you worked on
before, I'm curious what youthink are one or two of the most
important skills for a hotelierto be successful today.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I think one thing is, especially the technology side,
but in general, the world ismoving that fast. Anybody who's
not willing to adapt to changeis going be outpaced
immediately. So willingness andability to adapt to change and
to implement technology, toimplement new ways of operating,
of thinking, I think, is key,right? Start thinking about how
(15:36):
guests are now married to theirmobile phones in their day to
day life, how digitalization andautomation is just lifting so
many synergy effects, and alsosee that as an opportunity in an
ever more difficult workforcemarket, right? I think.
So this willingness to change,to adapt that flexibility in the
(15:58):
mind, I think is one of the keyelements you need in order to be
successful nowadays. Thetechnology is there, right? It's
all plug and play. It's APIs.It's not heavy sank costs.
It's not massive lead times. Youcan switch it on. If it doesn't
work, you can switch it off.Right? It doesn't change
anything.
So I think that is one element.And the second element is more
(16:20):
around the daring to be willingto take risk. And links a bit to
the first one, seeing it anddoing it is two things, right?
And seeing the opportunity beingflexible is one, but actually
implementing and doing it andbeing surprised. And don't think
a process to the end.
Right? If you're 80% there, juststart the other 20, you're
(16:41):
figure out on the way. I thinkthat helps you implement change
and stay dynamic. And otherwise,the market is shifting so
rapidly right now, thehospitality market, looking at
real estate prices, looking atlabor shortage, looking at
consumer or guest needs anddesires and patterns, that that
flexibility is needed in orderto be successful in the long
(17:02):
run. As an example, I've done asimple base calculation.
If you pay market relevant rentsfor a three star hotel in a
downtown city in Europe with a20 fourseven reception coverage
and you have like less than 60five-seventy units, you can't be
operationally profitableanymore. But there's so many
(17:23):
properties of that size, sixty,seventy units in great
locations, old operating modelswith 24 staffing, who at some
stage, when they need to refurb,that model doesn't work anymore.
In later stand, they need to beable to innovate and change and
adapt their model. And theearlier they do it, the more you
are benefiting from it.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Last question, kind of on the same topic. What is
one thing that you believe abouthotel technology that your peers
or other people in the industrymight disagree with?
Speaker 1 (17:53):
The biggest one is that you can deliver a great
personalized service withouthaving physical map along the
ground, I think. We have severalproperties where we have
booking.com scores in the high9s, 9.5, 9.6, which are proving
that. If the asset is there, ifthe processes are there, if it's
(18:14):
well controlled, if you have agood management team on the
ground, etc, you can do that.That's one element. And the
other element, I think, don'testimate the change in consumer
behavior and expectations.
More and more people don't wanta queue at reception, and they
don't need a golden faucet inthe bathrooms, and they don't
need, I don't know, threedifferent cold cut meats on the
(18:36):
breakfast buffet, right? Like,it's outdated. And people want
to go travel somewhere, spend abit of work, spend a bit of
leisure, that's spending moreand more, and so are the needs
around it, right? So they needthe working space in their room,
they need the ability to pop infor a great coffee, maybe in the
coffee shop next door. Theydon't need it all in one
property and so on.
(18:57):
So this is so changing. And Ithink realizing that and being
willing to accept that isprobably the biggest difference
between us and more traditionalplayers. Not saying that
traditional players don't have arelevance in the market. Right?
I think that's really important.
There is a market and meprivately. If I travel for
convenience, Numero is great.Right? Because I go somewhere, I
(19:18):
come in, out. It's efficient.
I can change the in the billingaddress to whatever I need in
order to handle my travelexpenses. I can go for the local
coffee shop to have a coffee.Very easy. If I travel leisure
and wanna relax and have aleisure holiday, I don't mind
reception, but I want a spa. Iwant the full service.
Right? It's a different traveloccasion, and I think there's a
(19:39):
product for both. But thatpersonalized luxury will be
costly in future. Right? And Ithink that's where it's gonna be
the division.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
What a great conversation. Thank you so much
for sharing all your insights,all your experience at Nuva. I'm
especially interested to knowabout your big tech team and
your prioritization framework.And it sounds like a very cool
kind of mix between a tech and ahotel company.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
It is, it is. You really see if we talk internally
and you have more traditionalhospitality players coming in, I
think the first two, threemonths it almost overwhelmed.
Because it feels more like atech company in certain parts of
the organisation, yeah. But inothers then, at the end, it's
bumps into bats. It's a breadand butter business of
hospitality.
Merging those two worlds of avery emotional centered product
(20:28):
and efficient tech organizationis, I think that that's what
makes Mingos so interesting towork
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, definitely. Well, it sounds like it's
working out really well for youwith all the growth.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I think we are on the right track here. Definitely.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Well, thanks so much, Julius. So great chatting with
you. Wish you all the best andhope to see more Pneuma
properties on the map in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
The pleasure was all my weekend. Thanks a lot. And,
yeah, all the best.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
That's all for today's episode. Thanks for
listening to Hotel Tech Insiderproduced by hoteltechreport.com.
Our goal with this podcast is toshow you how the best in the
business are leveragingtechnology to grow their
properties and outperform theconcept by using innovative
digital tools and strategies. Iencourage all of our listeners
to go try at least one of thesestrategies or tools that you
(21:17):
learned from today's episode.Successful digital
transformation is all aboutconsistent small experiments
over a long period of time, sodon't wait until tomorrow to try
something new.
Do you know a hotelier who wouldbe great to feature on this
show, or do you think that yourstory would bring a lot of value
to our audience? Reach out to medirectly on LinkedIn by
searching for Jordan Hollander.For more episodes like this,
(21:41):
follow Hotel Tech Insider on allmajor streaming platforms like
Spotify and Apple Music.
There's so many properties of that size in great
locations, old operating modelswith 24 staffing, who at some
stage, when they need to refurb,that model doesn't work anymore.
At latest then, they need to beable to innovate and change and
adapt their model. The earlierthey do it, the more you are
benefiting from it.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
From Hotel Tech Report, it's Hotel Tech Insider,
a show about the future ofhotels and the technology that
powers them.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Today, we're speaking with Julius Ambers, the Head of
Operations at Numa. Numaoperates 160 tech forward hotels
across Europe, and none of theirproperties have traditional
staffed front desks. In thisepisode, we talk through Numa's
tech stack, how their multilingual operations team works
together through a purpose builtapp, and how they use AI to make
(00:49):
better decisions. Let's dive in.Thanks so much for joining the
podcast.
To get started and kick thingsoff, I would love for you to
introduce yourself. Tell us abit about your role and your
company.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thanks for having me. I'm Julius, talent manager and
task for Loomar. We are anoperator, very digitalized,
using quite a lot of automationand AI in our day to days. Five
and a half years old now,founded in summer twenty
nineteen, focused Central Europeout of Berlin in Germany, and
(01:24):
I've been part of the journeyfor the last five and a half
years heading the operations. Mybackground is in traditional
hospitality, so I graduated fromCaesar Ritz University
Switzerland and CornellUniversity in The US, and have
had a fair share of experienceacross Europe.
Stint management trainee withMandarin Rental in Asia,
(01:45):
Malaysia, been the luxury highend, high touch end, as well as
done quite a few openings inLondon, where you have high net
worth individuals, high demands,very dynamic market during the
Olympics twenty twelve. Greatexperiences there. And then
ventured a bit off into theboutique hotel, lifestyle,
hospitality, where it's aboutbuilding a platform which
(02:08):
produces personalization really,but streamlines the process in
the background and looks at howguest experience can be elevated
by the physical product design,right, and atmosphere. And then
NUMA, or back in the days, COSI,rang, and we started speaking,
and I joined him around foundingstage, or just after founding
stage, as the operationsdirector to lead the operations,
(02:32):
and hence, being part of thisjourney from the first building
to now. I think we have roughly160 old buildings live.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
So tell me a bit about Pneuma. How many
properties do you operate andwhat would you say makes Pneuma
different than competitors inthe space?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
So Pneuma, we operate 160 properties roughly right
now, changing on a daily basisas we are trying to have a
growth journey right now, whichequals to around about 10,000
units or hotel rooms. We have abig focus on the apartment
market, meaning not allproperties but across the
(03:12):
portfolio around 75 to 80% ofour units have a kitchenette or
some form of kitchen. So wecater to that slightly longer
length of stay, which helps usfrom a cost efficiency
perspective, as well as givingour real estate partners a bit
of the protection forresidential products, right? We
are mainly in key cities wherethere's residential compression
(03:34):
in the market. So we're able tohave that base covered or have a
bit of longer length of stay,have a more consistent cash
flow, and then we're able toyield on top with the short
stay, which makes it quiteattractive from a business case
perspective.
Yes. And what makes us unique?We started off with the idea of
of building a hospitality brandfor the twenty first century
(03:57):
with the tools of the twentyfirst century. Right? And those
tools are majorlydigitalization, right, in the
broader scheme.
And we really went out therehaving a wide canvas, and that's
also one of the reasons I joinedNoomar. I'll still remember a
conversation with our CTO,Gerhard Maringa, and co founder,
(04:18):
who basically said, how do wedecide on what technology do we
want to use? And I was like, somany options out there. He was
like, really simple. We look atthe problem, we look what's in
the market, and we think we canbid it better or cheaper in
house, we'll do it ourselves.
And that was such a pragmaticapproach towards technology and
designing your tech stack. Thiswhite canvas approach I really
(04:40):
liked, and this is how we tackleevery problem we had. So
therefore, our operation hasvery little legacy in terms of
traditional sense or thetraditional tel industry sees
legacy. So we really build atech stack fit for the future,
very API first driven, so allabout connectivity, using data
points, having a good sampledatabase, Using data in every
(05:02):
decision making process, I thinkthat's one of the major
differences in our day to day.And then obviously, nowadays
using AI to help dealing withthat data from sentiment
analysis, through executivesummaries, through trend
analysis in region patterns, allthose things.
I think it's, yeah, quitehelpful. So I think that's the
(05:22):
major difference. And due to thetechnology, we can save around
60% of our operational payrollcosts, which in comparison to a
traditional three star hotel,which is a huge advantage and
gives out that firing power tobe aggressive on the growth
side, to have a really solidbalance sheet, to invest into
technology and people. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Well, there's so much to unpack there. I first want to
ask you mentioned the founderapproach technology with the
mindset of should we build it orbuy it? And how did that shape
your current tech stack? Do youhave a lot of features that are
built in house, or did you endup buying most of the systems
(06:04):
you use?
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I would say it's probably sixty forty. So 60
built, 40 bought. Right? Verydifficult to say of where does
your operational tech stackstart and where does it finish.
So I think we have a PMS, whichis bought off the shelf.
Right? So we work with Apaleohere, who have a very API first
(06:29):
platform, which helps you reallyfrom using that as your
foundational base or core piece,and you can then build around
and our Apaleo function doesn'tlook at all anymore like the
Apaleo which comes off theshelf. Right? So our tech team
has a great done a great job attailor making it, adapting it to
our use case. That's, I think,one key operational element
(06:50):
which is bought.
And then we have decided tobuild what is the core for our
day to day operation ourselves,or a operational app. We call it
Chine. It's basically started asa housekeeping app to be able to
communicate to the cleanerswhich rooms are vacant and to be
cleaned and which not. And bynow it is an app in I think 17
(07:11):
languages, which can trackmaintenance tasks, cleaning
tasks, has forecasting functionin there, has ability to track
cleaning scores per cleaner perroom category to look at trends.
In the back end, you see thedata, can see measured
productivity, all those things.
(07:33):
And really, it's a backbone,it's a communication tool for
our day to day operation.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Can you talk me through the process of an idea
to a feature that's in the wild?So if someone on the ground has
an idea for something that needsto be built, How do you think
through whether to search for avendor that has already created
that or building it in house?
Speaker 1 (07:57):
I think by now we are at a stage it's about fine
tuning, right? It's not anymoreabout reinventing the wheel. So
this is why Canvas has already alot of color on it right now.
And it's about squeezing thelast percentages of efficiency
out there and staying up to datewith market trends. And
especially with AI now, I thinkthere's massive leaps on how to
(08:19):
go the next step in thatdevelopment.
So if there's an idea, what weusually do I mean, usually
before an idea, there's aproblem. Right? And the problem
is either it's staffing costsand efficiency, time, it's guest
satisfaction, right, or it's afinancial drive where we say we
can uplift, right, eitherrevenues or cost, reduced cost.
(08:43):
So that's the basis. And then welook at how can we tackle this?
How can we optimize it? So we'redoing a lot of those why are we
doing things questions. Right?So quite often, we look at our
all our invoices, and wechallenge each individual
invoice line. Is there a way ofchanging this?
Right? Is there a way ofoptimizing this? And then we're
asking those questions anddeliberately asking those
(09:03):
questions, not from people whohave always worked with those
partners in that way, I think isa massive advantage Numener has
of having a lot of people whohave no traditional hospitality
background in key decisions. Sothey look at certain processes
and certain mechanisms from adifferent angle. I think that
helps challenging.
So having a wide portfolio ofknowledge and experience, I
(09:24):
think is that's initiated thatdrive to change, right? And then
what we have is, I actually likethat, call it product
ambassadors. So across the boardin the operations team, we have
high potential individuals inall the different roles from
senior management to reallyfrontline employees who devote a
(09:46):
certain time of their week to aSlack channel called product
optimization, right, at the end.And so ideas are just dumped in
there, right? And then they talkabout it.
And this is basically where ourproduct manager then gets his
inspiration from, where he haslive feedback to what's
happening day to day on theground, where he can beta test
(10:08):
ideas, where rollout plans canbe discussed, where exhaust it's
it's like an audience whichhelps who is doing the job on a
day to day basis, and it helpsco create the product they work
with afterwards. So it's notsomething which comes off the
shelf and it's not adapted.Right? So I think the language
piece, as an example, shows youwith whatever we develop, we
(10:30):
always look at how is itimplemented and how is it
adapted in day to day. And thishelps us, or we're able to do
that with having this productambassador group.
And then the idea at the endgets written down and
conceptualized andprofessionalized and planned.
And then we, the productmanager, well as some operations
senior management, really lookat, okay, what's the efficiency
(10:51):
gain of this? Or what's theimpact on the P and L? And then
you can do an ROI calculation onit. And then there's a very
strict prioritization.
Because I think there's so muchpotential on digitalizing,
optimizing processes that we aresometimes overwhelmed of where
to start. So prioritization iskey there to really look at what
(11:13):
delivers an impact in the shortrun, in the long run, and where
do we want to focus now, right,from a strategic perspective.
And then it gets on the roadmap,and then the tech team is
rolling it out. And thenusually, quarter to four months
later, you're gonna hear, thereit is. We're gonna go live.
And then the training team getsinvolved to write the the
roundup plan, the training plan,and then we go left. Then we
(11:36):
monitor if the synergies arethere as expected. There's
always going be some fine tuningso on needed, but it's a living
organism. And I think we have amindset at Pneuma which supports
this imperfection because thereis always a certain imperfection
until something isprofessionalized. You will not
have the perfect solution offthe shelf and the same speed as
(11:56):
we are growing.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Can you talk me through the different tech touch
points that a guest wouldexperience during their stay?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
We're starting with booking. Right? That starts
where the expectation managementstarts, where the tech journey
starts, really. So preferably onour website, numastays.com,
right, where they can then book,go through the booking process,
pay for their stay, register,and then ideally, in that
moment, they're already promptedto upload their ID to fill in
(12:29):
the registration cards becausethen it's all done. Right?
They get the bookingconfirmation. If they haven't
filled in the ID, then they geta reminder notification, a few
weeks out, a few days out,etcetera. Right? And at the end,
they get the evening beforetheir check-in, they get the
WhatsApp or push notification ifthey have downloaded our app
already with all the keyinformation. And then then they
(12:53):
itself, they gotta get a roomnumber.
They're gonna get their personalPIN codes to use their room, and
from what time it is available,and where it is located,
directions, all theopportunities, recommendations,
or what's happening in the localmarket, etc. And on checkout,
they basically can scan a QRcode on the door when they
leave, leave reviews and checkout, which we need in order for
(13:15):
our housekeeping team to knowthe room is empty, because only
once they know the room isempty, it shows in the app as a
room to be cleaned. So you avoidthat housekeeper running around
the corridors at 8AM in themorning, waking up all the
guests. Right? Because they onlyknow which room is dirty or to
be cleaned once the guests checkout.
So we have that element, or theycan just confirm it in the app
(13:36):
that they departed or via aWhatsApp reminder, which they
confirm. So there's severaloptions here.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
I wanted to double click into your real estate
partnerships. I'm guessing thatPneuma is a management company
and then there's a differentparty that owns.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah. We don't own any real estate. We rent either
on fixed leases, hybrid leases,or pure management deals. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Do the ownership groups have much interaction
with the Pneuma team day to day?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Depending a bit on the contractual situation, there
are reporting obligations,right, from annual statements
through monthly statements, andthen from pure high level
financial reporting throughreally granular operational and
qualitative reporting, dependinga bit on who bears the risk in
the contract relationship. Soyeah, there is a communication.
(14:28):
Yes, definitely. At the end,such a hospitality asset has a
value and any investor or realestate owner wants to make sure
that we are taking care of theirvalue, right, of the assets. And
therefore there is acommunication that we have more
and more real estate partnerswho we have multiple properties
with, which is also I thinkpositive testament to our
(14:49):
ability to deliver on rents andon strong balance sheets as well
as on the final product.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Switching gears a little bit. So drawing on your
experience at Numa and with thehotel companies you worked on
before, I'm curious what youthink are one or two of the most
important skills for a hotelierto be successful today.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I think one thing is, especially the technology side,
but in general, the world ismoving that fast. Anybody who's
not willing to adapt to changeis going be outpaced
immediately. So willingness andability to adapt to change and
to implement technology, toimplement new ways of operating,
of thinking, I think, is key,right? Start thinking about how
(15:36):
guests are now married to theirmobile phones in their day to
day life, how digitalization andautomation is just lifting so
many synergy effects, and alsosee that as an opportunity in an
ever more difficult workforcemarket, right? I think.
So this willingness to change,to adapt that flexibility in the
(15:58):
mind, I think is one of the keyelements you need in order to be
successful nowadays. Thetechnology is there, right? It's
all plug and play. It's APIs.It's not heavy sank costs.
It's not massive lead times. Youcan switch it on. If it doesn't
work, you can switch it off.Right? It doesn't change
anything.
So I think that is one element.And the second element is more
(16:20):
around the daring to be willingto take risk. And links a bit to
the first one, seeing it anddoing it is two things, right?
And seeing the opportunity beingflexible is one, but actually
implementing and doing it andbeing surprised. And don't think
a process to the end.
Right? If you're 80% there, juststart the other 20, you're
(16:41):
figure out on the way. I thinkthat helps you implement change
and stay dynamic. And otherwise,the market is shifting so
rapidly right now, thehospitality market, looking at
real estate prices, looking atlabor shortage, looking at
consumer or guest needs anddesires and patterns, that that
flexibility is needed in orderto be successful in the long
(17:02):
run. As an example, I've done asimple base calculation.
If you pay market relevant rentsfor a three star hotel in a
downtown city in Europe with a20 fourseven reception coverage
and you have like less than 60five-seventy units, you can't be
operationally profitableanymore. But there's so many
(17:23):
properties of that size, sixty,seventy units in great
locations, old operating modelswith 24 staffing, who at some
stage, when they need to refurb,that model doesn't work anymore.
In later stand, they need to beable to innovate and change and
adapt their model. And theearlier they do it, the more you
are benefiting from it.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Last question, kind of on the same topic. What is
one thing that you believe abouthotel technology that your peers
or other people in the industrymight disagree with?
Speaker 1 (17:53):
The biggest one is that you can deliver a great
personalized service withouthaving physical map along the
ground, I think. We have severalproperties where we have
booking.com scores in the high9s, 9.5, 9.6, which are proving
that. If the asset is there, ifthe processes are there, if it's
(18:14):
well controlled, if you have agood management team on the
ground, etc, you can do that.That's one element. And the
other element, I think, don'testimate the change in consumer
behavior and expectations.
More and more people don't wanta queue at reception, and they
don't need a golden faucet inthe bathrooms, and they don't
need, I don't know, threedifferent cold cut meats on the
(18:36):
breakfast buffet, right? Like,it's outdated. And people want
to go travel somewhere, spend abit of work, spend a bit of
leisure, that's spending moreand more, and so are the needs
around it, right? So they needthe working space in their room,
they need the ability to pop infor a great coffee, maybe in the
coffee shop next door. Theydon't need it all in one
property and so on.
(18:57):
So this is so changing. And Ithink realizing that and being
willing to accept that isprobably the biggest difference
between us and more traditionalplayers. Not saying that
traditional players don't have arelevance in the market. Right?
I think that's really important.
There is a market and meprivately. If I travel for
convenience, Numero is great.Right? Because I go somewhere, I
(19:18):
come in, out. It's efficient.
I can change the in the billingaddress to whatever I need in
order to handle my travelexpenses. I can go for the local
coffee shop to have a coffee.Very easy. If I travel leisure
and wanna relax and have aleisure holiday, I don't mind
reception, but I want a spa. Iwant the full service.
Right? It's a different traveloccasion, and I think there's a
(19:39):
product for both. But thatpersonalized luxury will be
costly in future. Right? And Ithink that's where it's gonna be
the division.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
What a great conversation. Thank you so much
for sharing all your insights,all your experience at Nuva. I'm
especially interested to knowabout your big tech team and
your prioritization framework.And it sounds like a very cool
kind of mix between a tech and ahotel company.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
It is, it is. You really see if we talk internally
and you have more traditionalhospitality players coming in, I
think the first two, threemonths it almost overwhelmed.
Because it feels more like atech company in certain parts of
the organisation, yeah. But inothers then, at the end, it's
bumps into bats. It's a breadand butter business of
hospitality.
Merging those two worlds of avery emotional centered product
(20:28):
and efficient tech organizationis, I think that that's what
makes Mingos so interesting towork
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, definitely. Well, it sounds like it's
working out really well for youwith all the growth.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I think we are on the right track here. Definitely.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Well, thanks so much, Julius. So great chatting with
you. Wish you all the best andhope to see more Pneuma
properties on the map in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
The pleasure was all my weekend. Thanks a lot. And,
yeah, all the best.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
That's all for today's episode. Thanks for
listening to Hotel Tech Insiderproduced by hoteltechreport.com.
Our goal with this podcast is toshow you how the best in the
business are leveragingtechnology to grow their
properties and outperform theconcept by using innovative
digital tools and strategies. Iencourage all of our listeners
to go try at least one of thesestrategies or tools that you
(21:17):
learned from today's episode.Successful digital
transformation is all aboutconsistent small experiments
over a long period of time, sodon't wait until tomorrow to try
something new.
Do you know a hotelier who wouldbe great to feature on this
show, or do you think that yourstory would bring a lot of value
to our audience? Reach out to medirectly on LinkedIn by
searching for Jordan Hollander.For more episodes like this,
(21:41):
follow Hotel Tech Insider on allmajor streaming platforms like
Spotify and Apple Music.
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