August 24, 2022 • 31 mins
Three men walk into a bar, and see a huge gap in the market - while wine, whiskey and beer were all receiving the craft treatment, gin was largely being ignored. And even better, these three men lived in Australia, and knew the land down under was the perfect place to create not just great gin, but the world’s best gin.
Matt Jones, one of the three co-founders of Four Pillars Gin, is also the Brand Director, and brought to the new company decades of experience in marketing and branding.
Matt shares his obsessions with aesthetics and storytelling, and his goal to approach branding with the same level of meticulous craftsmanship as the distillers who make the drink itself.
Connect with Matt on Twitter or on the excellent Four Pillars website
***
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Get in touch at amantha@inventium.com.au
CREDITS
Produced by Inventium
Host: Amantha Imber
Production Support from Deadset Studios
Episode Producer: Liam Riordan
Sound Engineer: Martin Imber
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Imagine having an idea for a product, and specifically a
new gin. You team up with a couple of mates
and then within six years it gets named the world's
best gin. Is in the best gin on the entire planet.
This is what happened to Matt Jones, one of the
(00:21):
co founders of Four Pillars Gin. In twenty nineteen, six
years after it was founded, Four Pillars Gin was named
the world's leading gin producer by the IWSC in London,
and they repeated this in twenty twenty, making Australia's favorite
gin officially the world's best. As well as being one
(00:43):
of the three co founders of Four Pillars Gin, Matt
Jones is also its brand director. Matt's job is to
make sure that the work his partners do on creating
the world's best gin translates to the rest of the brand.
But what does that look like? And how do you
create a world renowned alcohol brand in less than a decade?
(01:06):
And why is Matt so obsessed with esthetics? My name
is doctor amanthe Immer. I'm an organizational psychologist and the
founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how
I work A show about how to help you do
(01:27):
your best work. An important philosophy at Four Pillars Jin
is that they say they are makers not marketers. Given
Matt's role is that a brand director. I naturally assume
this would entail some marketing. So why doesn't Matt consider
himself a marketer.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
There are probably lots of answers to that question, not
all of them are good ones. A short one is
I'm probably a little bit of a contrarian. I probably
like to get get into a debate, but often that
is in service of getting people to think. And I
guess I coined the phrase makers not marketers because I
(02:07):
wanted people to think about what it was that made
Four Pillars successful. And that really went back to why
we started the gin journey, you know, back in twenty
twelve when we started to think about it. In twenty thirteen,
when we launched, we did it because we felt it
was possible to make better gin here in Australia. We
(02:28):
felt that Australia offered some of the best possible conditions
for making gin. You know, the great thing about gin
is it has to be distilled on a canvas of juniper.
But after juniper you can kind of go. You can
go nuts. You can go wherever you want, you can
distill what you want, and you can play with flavor.
You can play with natural, indigenous botanicals and ingredients, And
(02:53):
nowhere has a stronger flavor culture, Nowhere has greater access
to different produce, different ingredients, different botanical than here in Australia.
So you kind of couldn't grow a better sort of
laboratory setting for making gin than Australia. This is the
perfect place to do it. And so as a result,
we thought, you know what, we can truly make better gin.
(03:14):
We can't just make better Australian gin. We can make
some of the world's best gin here in Australia. But
we'll only do that if we get up every day
really charged and focused with that energy around making the
most of the opportunity of making gin here. And to
do that, we've got to have this make a mindset.
We've got to have this mindset that says, A, every
(03:36):
day we get trying to make a better product, and
b if we were down to our last thousand bucks,
what would we spend that on? And the answer should
be making, not marketing. So it was not about saying
we will never do marketing, because of course that would
be daft. It would be silly to make a better product,
a different product, and then not creatively tell people about that,
(03:59):
credibly share that with the world. The point was to
really think about our source of differentiation and to say
that's going to come from the quality of what we make,
not the cleverness of how we market.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
One aspect of four Pillars, I think that really stands out,
and I was just having a little pop onto your
website before we started recording, is something you believe is
really undervalued when it comes to brand, which is aesthetics.
And I'd love to know, like, what does this term
mean to you and how do you really infuse it
(04:35):
into your thinking around the Four Pillars brand.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
It's a great question, and it is going to reveal
what a hypocrite Having said that we're making marketers, I'm
going to talk about a key piece of marketing, which
is sort of design and imagery and aesthetics and all
those things. Look, the logic is pretty straightforward, and you're right,
I do think it is. It is something that people
(05:01):
consistently undervalue and underinvest in, and I'll tell you why
in the second But I'll first of all, I'll tell
you why I think it's important. For Four Pillars, the
logic is pretty straightforward. If we are makers not marketers,
or or to put it another way, if we are
makers first and only then are we're marketers. Then the
thought process was that the best way to get people
(05:21):
to appreciate what we're making is to get them as
close as we can to the process of making gin.
It's sort of the opposite of you know the old
cliche about if you ever saw a butcher maker sausage,
you never read a sausage again. Well, we want people
to see the sausage being made. We want people to
get up close and personal with the craft of making gin,
because if they do, they'll realize just had differentiated, just
(05:43):
have fantastic. The way that Cameron and the team at
Four Pillars Distillery and Heels will make gin is but
you can't force everyone, especially as you grow, as you
grow beyond that hardcore early adopter audience and you start
to reach a more mainstream consumer. You know, orbit it's
a mainstream consumer who can afford to spend eighty ninety
(06:05):
bucks on a bottle of gin, But nonetheless they're not
that hardcore early adopter audience, you're growing into a more
of a mainstream audience. You can't force all of them
to care as much as you do about the craft,
about the attention to detail. But what you can do
is lay down clues, is give them a sense of
(06:25):
the craft, a sense of the attention to detail, a
sense of how much you care about everything you do.
And if one of the ways that we can do
that is with the attention to detail, we apply to
other areas to design, to print, to photography, imagery, aesthetics, film,
always making sure that what's coming through is this sense
(06:48):
of care, this sense of quality, this sense of craft.
The second way it's really really important. I think that
this sense of aesthetics is we are in a fundamentally
sensory business. We're in an irrational business. We're in a
business of people feeling good, not just about the flavor
of the drink they make, the flavor of the gin
they taste, but the process of making it, the sense
(07:09):
of they're taking care of themselves, they're treating themselves. There's
a specialist to it. And so if we want to
sort of evoke those feelings and those emotions and those associations,
then we can't just let the liquid do the heavy lifting.
We've got to help it. We've got to help it
with the quality of the packaging, the quality of the imagery,
the photography. Again, so for all those reasons, both the
(07:31):
way that we are conveying our craft values, the way
that we're communicating something really important and inherent to four pillars,
which is that attend to detail, but also the way
that we're trying to evoke those same emotions, those same
sensory cues that we want the liquid and the drink
to For all those reasons, it's really really important to us.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
And how do you do that though? In terms of
having this really high standard with aesthetics? I mean, you know,
it's one thing to have brand guide signs that are
followed by everyone that works on visual aspects of the brand,
but like, how do you like uphold this really high
standard to have everything be you know, so esthetically like
(08:14):
pleasing and beautiful.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Well, first of all, it's nice to hear you say that. Secondly,
I guess there's different ways into that answer. You know,
one is how do you do it mechanically? Or you've
got to work with good people, and that's not just
about having people in the business with a great eye,
great understanding of how the brand should show up in
the world, great attention to detail. But not everyone has
(08:38):
that in their business, and that's okay. You've got to
have great partners. We work with phenomenal photographers, stylists, We've
got an incredible design and content agency, people I've been
working with for more than a decade now, who we
trust with our brand's life. But a different way to
answer that question is you've got to value it. You've
(08:59):
got to allocate both budget and time and attention to that.
You've got to not allow good enough to be good enough.
And I think this goes to it's kind of bigger
conversation about understanding what are the things that are going
(09:19):
to move the needle for your business and move the
needle for your brand, and making sure that having identified
those things, you invest appropriately in them and you don't
underinvest in them. Because we are all enormously constrained, aren't we,
in terms of not just the budgets we've got, but
the time we have, the emotional energy we have, and
(09:40):
it's very easy to allow something to get to a
point of good enough, that sense of that will do
and to go, oh, thank goodness, that's another thing ticked
off the list, and in some areas that will be
good enough for your business. But if these are things
that are going to help to define your business, to
(10:03):
differentiate your brand, then good enough is not going to
cut it. And so for us, the decision early on
was if Cameron, who's one of my co founders, was
going to make the best gin in the world, and
stew the third co founder, was going to go and
tell the best stories in the world and go and
knock down doors and do all the amazing stuff he
does building relationships, then one of the contributions I could
(10:25):
make from a brand point of view was to make
sure that every touch point of that liquid and that
story was as good as it could be and working
as hard as it could. And that is an exhausting effort.
That is a decision that you make to not let
things slide past you that clearly could be better, and
(10:46):
to surround yourself with people who when you sort of
run out of a little bit of energy and go, oh,
I don't know, I think maybe that design's good enough,
they go, I don't think it is. I think we
need to push again.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Now. Of course, related to everything that you've been describing
is creativity, and creativity is a really significant part of
the DNA of four pillars, and I would love to know, like,
at a practical level, how how do you promote and
foster creativity within the business and you know, within yourself
(11:19):
as well.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, there's a lot, There's a lot there isn't there.
And it's such a interesting word. Like I've I've had
an evolving relationship I think with the with the idea
of creativity. There have been moments in my career when
I've felt like creativity is almost sort of a term
(11:41):
that's thrown around too liberally and it becomes too democratic
and actually the act of creativity and sort of the
act of creative value creation through creativity should belong to
those people with a real sense of expertise and training
in that space. And then there've been other times and
I felt that it does need to be more democratized
(12:04):
and open to a wider range of contributions. I think
we're probably somewhere in the middle of that spectrum of
four pillars. The first thing to say is that we
are just incredibly lucky. But then, as the cliche goes,
I think we probably do a good job of making
our own luck. So I'll unpack that a bit. Where
(12:26):
we're incredibly lucky is primarily with Cameron. So Cameron is
the co founder who really matters. He is the well
he always reminds us there's no such thing as a
former Olympian. He is the Olympian who ran for Australia
in Atlanta. He was a foruna meter runner. He was
in the relay team there, made the semifinals. So he's
(12:46):
a really determined, relentless guy. He does not settle when
he feels there's something better to be done. And his
nation and his relentlessness turns out he doesn't just apply
that to doing the same thing better, He applies that
(13:07):
to doing different things. So with that, he's incredibly curious.
He's got this great palette and he's just got fantastic ideas.
And probably back when I was in the creative agency,
they're not ideas that I would have recognized as big ideas. Instead,
what they are a small ideas that he executes beautifully.
(13:28):
So I'll give you an example. He grew up one
of five boys, the youngest of five brothers, and every
derby day, every Victorian Derby Day, the weekend before Melbourne Cup.
His mum would get all the boys into the kitchen
and she would get to help make the Christmas puddings
for that year, and his dad would be in the
(13:49):
living room losing money on the races. And Cameron really
loved this tradition growing up. And so he's got three
daughters and so he sort of had the same tradition
with them and got them war into kitchen on Derby
Day to make Christmas puddings. And he's doing this back
in twenty fifteen to only a couple of years into
the Four Pillars journey, and he's looking at the ingredient
list and he's still using his mum's nineteen sixty eight
(14:10):
Woman's Weekly Christmas Pudding recipe and he's looking at all
the ingredients and he's going, these things would order still,
and so without telling me and stew, which is probably
one of the ingredients of creativity in this case, he
just goes down the distillery that afternoon. He gets the
girls to make a couple of extra puddings, and he
goes down the stillery that afternoon and he distills those
(14:33):
Christmas puddings and what results is a gin with a
lot of those Christmas pudding flavors. But then I said,
he's quite uncompromising, and he tastes it and he's like, well,
it's quite delicious. And I suspect a man for that.
Eight out of ten distillers who'd had that idea at
that point would have settled. But Cameron thought to himself,
(14:56):
a Christmas is avou indulgence, and this isn't indulgence enough.
It's not rich enough. And he thought, wait a minute.
There were some barrels that the mates who works in windery,
because again we're in the Ara Valley, so we've got
lots of friends in the wine industry. And I made
of the wind industry had showed up with this pair
of one hundred year old barrels a few weeks before.
(15:17):
And these barrels had come over from Scotland eighty years ago.
There'd been William Grant's whiskey barrels eighty years ago. They
came to Australia, they ended up in Rutherglen. They'd spent
eighty years aging musket. They were kind of run out
of their they've done done their time in musket. And
this guy said to Cameron would you like them, and
he was like, well maybe. So there were these two
hundred year old musket barrels lying around, and camera though, well,
(15:39):
what would happen if I aged the distilled Christmas pudding
gin in those hundred year old musket barrels? And so
he does that, and then you know, eight months later
he tastes it and he's like, yeah, it's nearly there.
And so he then goes to a friend who works
up in Rutherglen and says, can they get some fresh muskets?
Would to add a little bit of tweak to the
(16:00):
finish of that, to add that extra bit of richness.
And only at that point, when he had sort of
explored and played and done all of this in the
shadows did he come to me and Stewards say, guys,
I've made this. I think it's Christmas gin. I think
it smells like gin, but tastes like Christmas? What do
you think? And so, no permission, just a sense of
following his instincts, good instincts, not then settling when it
(16:24):
was okay, but really pushing to a point where he
was happy and he was proud. And there are plenty
of experiments that never made it to that benchmark and
never got to that level, so we never saw them.
But then I think, to further answer your question, that's
when the second act of creativity comes in to get right. Well,
we've got this product that Cameron's created. It seems quite delicious,
(16:46):
It's got a wonderful story behind it. How do we
now do justice to it? So I then started to think, well,
if this is an embodiment of Christmas, and it's a
family tradition of Camerons, how could we make it an
embodiment of Christmas for four Pillars and a family tradition,
not just for the four Pillars family, but for our
family of customers. And I thought, well, maybe the way
(17:07):
that we do that is by making it a present.
And if it's a present, it should be wrapped. So
rather than wrapping it in a traditional label and lots
of branding, what if we wrap it in a piece
of art. And so we had the idea of commissioning
original pieces of art from Australian artists who could show
(17:28):
us their take on the Australian Christmas experience, not the
cold Northern Hemisphere Christmas experience, but the beautiful, hot, sunny,
sweaty Christmas experience that I've learned to love because I'm
from the UK originally, but you know, for twenty years
i've heard to love our version of Christmas. And so
then that's the second act of creativity. How do we contextualize,
(17:48):
how do we wrap this up? And then I think
the last piece, you know, the law lessons from our
Christmas gin journey to make that work, to be able
to sell back to my partners, the idea of creating
a four pillars product with no four Pillars branding on it.
I needed to have control. So the artist I went
to in year one was not the best artists I
(18:10):
could find, or the best artists I could dream of,
all the most high profile artists. It's an artist I
could trust. So I went to a friend who did
beautiful work, but also where there was a trust based
relationship where I could really say, look, this is what
I need, this is where I needed to go, this
is the timeline I've got to meet because I've got
to get this in early. And so that balance of
big idea and control. So from Cameron, that sense of
(18:34):
following his instincts and following his nose, trusting his gut,
which you only get to do because you've mastered your craft,
because you've got an understanding in his case, of how
flavor comes together. So that mastery of your craft gives you,
even if you're not a hugely creative person, that opportunity
to then listen to your gut more. And that I
(18:54):
think is something really important about creativity at four pillars.
It's intrinsic, not extrinsic. Comes primarily from what we want
to make based on our understanding of our craft, our
passion for gin, our passion for flavor, our mastery of
Australian botanicals in this case Cameron following his gut. It
then comes I think we're in a world where great
(19:17):
execution beats great big ideas badly executed. So then it
comes from that willingness to really push at that idea
and perfect that idea and get it to a point
where you think it deserves a wider audience. And then
I think it comes from that desire and that determination
to push at every other touch point of that, which
(19:37):
goes back to that conversation about product experience, aesthetics and go,
look this product. This creative idea for a product is fantastic,
but it's not finished until we've addressed every other touch point.
And then that willingness and that ability to then go
outside of your business and say, who can add value
to this. In the case of Christmas Gin, it was artists.
(19:59):
And we've had now seven years and wonderful experiences working
with art is, first ones we knew, and increasingly ones
that we've sought out because we've admired their work and
built a great relationship with So I think our experience
is unique, Amantha, because it's it's jin because every experience
is unique. But I think there are relatable, I hope,
(20:21):
lessons for every business. One about you know that the
more you master your craft, the more you can trust
your instincts. The second about then recognizing that the power
of the idea on paper is not what's going to
help you win. It's going to be the power of
the idea executed and realized, and that in turn relies
on your ability to apply that real, uncompromising attention to detail.
(20:46):
But the last thing is also just just a willingness
to back instincts and to back ideas that are intrinsic.
And you and I talked a bit earlier in this
podcast about things that are perhaps undervalued in business today,
and I think instinct is one of them. Intrinsic innovation.
I think if you've got a really strong sense of
(21:09):
your purpose, a really strong sense of the value that
you create and could create in the world, I think
if you've got a really great handle on your craft,
or your source of expertise, or what it is that
differentiates you in your field, then I think you should
maybe trust your instincts a little bit more and not
(21:31):
always feel the need to question what does our customer
want next? Because often they don't know because they haven't
seen it. And I think that's something I'm really proud
of at Four Pillars that we've empowered first the founder
group with our different backgrounds and interests, but increasingly our
whole company to trust their instincts and to bring forward
(21:54):
ideas that are not always anchored in evidence, not always
anchored in well, this is what customers are asking for,
but instead anchored in a sense of four pillarsness. What
should four Pillars do next? What would the right thing
be for us to do and to make, and what
would it look like if we saw that through and
really fully committed to.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
It, we will be back with Matt Soon talking about
the frameworks he uses to make decisions. If you're looking
for more tips to improve the way that you work,
I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool
things that I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging
(22:33):
from software and gadgets that I'm loving through the interesting
research findings. You can sign up for that at Howiwork
dot code. That's how I work dot co. So an
important part of creativity is decision making, and it sounds
like you guys have made some brilliant decisions on which
ideas to move forward. And I've heard that you're a
(22:56):
fan of creating frameworks for decisions and you lack lists
of thought. Can you tell me about this, how you
create these frameworks for decision making?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Well, that does sound very grown up sized and perhaps
more structured, but look, it's true. I think, yeah, this
is a great question. I think at the heart of it,
what we're talking about is sort of the codification of
instincts and making sure that what you don't want to
(23:34):
do is correct frameworks that are so compelling that you
can talk yourself into bad decisions. But what you do
want to do, I think is just capture what it
is that is going to make you successful and sometimes retrospectively,
what has made you successful. So frameworks that we've built
at four Pillars include the four pillars of our purpose,
(23:58):
something we don't talk about really at all to our
external customers, but we talk about a lot internally. What
are the reasons why we exist, why we do these things,
why we matter in the world. And they are distilling cocktails,
modern Australia and community and we've got things to say
about all of them, but at the heart of it,
(24:18):
they are these four pillars of why we exist that
we can come back to. And so why that's helpful
is it gives people a lens that they can use
to talk about their ideas. So when they come to
the table and say, I've got this great idea for
a four pillars home in Sydney, and i don't think
we need another distillery, but I've looked at the purpose
and I'm thinking about that second pillar, to elevate and
(24:41):
celebrate the craft of the cocktail. As much as the
distillery is wonderful place, the distillery is really about the
first pillar of our purpose, to elevate the craft of
distilling gin. What if we built a home in Sydney
that was all about pillar number two, celebrating the craft
of a great cocktail, and it gives them a language,
It gives them something to hang that idea from that
(25:04):
then makes sense of it in the business and allows
us to explore it more and give it a center
of gravity, another structure or another little list of four
the four experienced principles, which really are about how we
want people to feel about us. That we want people
to experience four pillars as the most delicious, most creative,
(25:29):
most well designed and just most fun brand in gin.
And so that relationship between deliciousness and creativity and design
and fun helps give us guardrails. So as we're executing,
if I go back to the four pillars of the
boratory in Sydney and Surrey Hills, which is this beautiful
space anchored around this incredible bar, where the bartender and
(25:51):
the drink a sort of a sitting across this blue
juniper blue concrete bar, all on the same plane. It's
almost like a beautiful sushi counter in where you know,
chef and dinery unified around the space, except in this
case it's the bartender and the drinker. Now The reality
is as we executed that we could have got too serious.
You know, we worked with this incredible interior architect called
(26:14):
Yasmighanim and create this great space, but we could have
got too serious about the architecture and the craft of drinks,
making too invested in the creativity and the design strands
of our sort of experience principles. So then you come
back and you pull back to you but is it
going to be delicious? Is it going to be fun?
Are people are going to be relaxed enough to enjoy
(26:35):
their drink and feel like they're having a good time?
And so what these frameworks do? You know? Some give
you language to talk about ideas and how they fit
within the business. Some give you guardrails around design and
making sure that you're striking that right balance. You know.
I try and make sure that when we write marketing
strategies or when we build our growth strategies for a
(26:57):
market like the UK, that it comes down to typically
four key principles. I think it's about giving people language
that helps them to articulate why they think things are right.
What these frameworks should not become is a way of
bullying people into accepting ideas that are fundamentally bad. And
(27:18):
I think you know, I've worked a lot in the
in the corporate space over the years, and sometimes you
see these sort of values frameworks or these behaviors, and
the language around them is so flexible that they can
almost become this coverall that could support any idea, no
matter how bad. And I think that's the danger of frameworks.
So the other thing I'd say is that a framework
(27:40):
is only as good as the story it allows you
to tell. So as much as I like business to
have these frameworks and these lists, what I always want
to be behind them as stories. And something I really
encourage our team to do is to start presentations and
to start meetings and to start proposals of new ideas
is with're telling the story of why this is the
(28:02):
right thing to do and going back to those first
principles and using narrative language. I'm a big admirer of
that sort of narrative approach that Amazon has taken. The
Bezos took to making sure that decisions of Amazon were well considered.
I mean, we don't write the same three page long
form essays about our ideas, but let's still trying to
encourage that same sense of storytelling, So framework's useful, but
(28:26):
behind those frameworks needs to be a sense of narrative
and story. And frameworks should help people develop and anchor
their proposals and their designs and their thinking, but they
shouldn't be able to be used as a tool to
sort of ram bad ideas through the business. If you
see what to being.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Well, Matt, I have loved listening to your stories about
four Pillars, and for people that are wanting to engage
with four Pillars but maybe haven't, what are some good
ways for people to do that?
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Well, we write beautiful emails, so they can always jump
onto four Pillars gin dot com and sign up to
be on Wilmer's list. There's so much that we haven't
talked about today.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
You know.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
One of those things is that sense of building community
with your customers and treating your customers as family. And
I'd like to think that we do that over over
our emails. We're not too spammy, we're not too salesy.
We're really just trying to include people on the on
the journey and tell them the stories of what we're doing.
Whether it's you know, why our stills are named after
(29:34):
our mums or a new product we've released are a
little you know, small batch collaboration with an interesting brand
that is going to be here today and gone tomorrow.
So probably the best way is to sign up to
get emails. But equally, you know, I'm always happy to
get messages from folks and chat on LinkedIn. I'm very
easy to find Matt Jones. Four Pillars will get you there,
follow us on Instagram, and most importantly you've all come
(29:56):
and say hi in Heelsville or if you can't make
it a Heelsville come and say hi, and Sydney and
you know, come and have a drink and a tasting
and see what we do in the real world.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Amazing. Matt, Well, thank you so much for your time
and sharing what has gone on behind the scenes around
how four Pillars has been created and has gone from
gosh like is it nine years ago being born to
very quickly becoming the world's best gin brand. So thank you.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Thanks, Mantha, great to chat.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
I loved hearing about Matt's obsession with aesthetics. It's something
that made me think about my own company Inventium, where
we do care a lot about the way things look,
as is hopefully obvious if you check out our website
at inventium dot com dot are you. But I don't
think we obsess over it enough. I mean, most of
what we produce is quite beautiful, I think, but then
(30:53):
there'll be details that we miss, like workshop handouts that
are in old branding or that just don't look as schmick. Anyway,
this interview made me take stock and think about the
impact that paying more attention to these details could have
on people's perceptions of the Inventium brand. How I Work
is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios.
(31:15):
The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank
you to my Nimba, who does the audio mix for
every episode and makes everything sound so much better than
it would have otherwise.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
See you next time.
Imagine having an idea for a product, and specifically a
new gin. You team up with a couple of mates
and then within six years it gets named the world's
best gin. Is in the best gin on the entire planet.
This is what happened to Matt Jones, one of the
(00:21):
co founders of Four Pillars Gin. In twenty nineteen, six
years after it was founded, Four Pillars Gin was named
the world's leading gin producer by the IWSC in London,
and they repeated this in twenty twenty, making Australia's favorite
gin officially the world's best. As well as being one
(00:43):
of the three co founders of Four Pillars Gin, Matt
Jones is also its brand director. Matt's job is to
make sure that the work his partners do on creating
the world's best gin translates to the rest of the brand.
But what does that look like? And how do you
create a world renowned alcohol brand in less than a decade?
(01:06):
And why is Matt so obsessed with esthetics? My name
is doctor amanthe Immer. I'm an organizational psychologist and the
founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how
I work A show about how to help you do
(01:27):
your best work. An important philosophy at Four Pillars Jin
is that they say they are makers not marketers. Given
Matt's role is that a brand director. I naturally assume
this would entail some marketing. So why doesn't Matt consider
himself a marketer.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
There are probably lots of answers to that question, not
all of them are good ones. A short one is
I'm probably a little bit of a contrarian. I probably
like to get get into a debate, but often that
is in service of getting people to think. And I
guess I coined the phrase makers not marketers because I
(02:07):
wanted people to think about what it was that made
Four Pillars successful. And that really went back to why
we started the gin journey, you know, back in twenty
twelve when we started to think about it. In twenty thirteen,
when we launched, we did it because we felt it
was possible to make better gin here in Australia. We
(02:28):
felt that Australia offered some of the best possible conditions
for making gin. You know, the great thing about gin
is it has to be distilled on a canvas of juniper.
But after juniper you can kind of go. You can
go nuts. You can go wherever you want, you can
distill what you want, and you can play with flavor.
You can play with natural, indigenous botanicals and ingredients, And
(02:53):
nowhere has a stronger flavor culture, Nowhere has greater access
to different produce, different ingredients, different botanical than here in Australia.
So you kind of couldn't grow a better sort of
laboratory setting for making gin than Australia. This is the
perfect place to do it. And so as a result,
we thought, you know what, we can truly make better gin.
(03:14):
We can't just make better Australian gin. We can make
some of the world's best gin here in Australia. But
we'll only do that if we get up every day
really charged and focused with that energy around making the
most of the opportunity of making gin here. And to
do that, we've got to have this make a mindset.
We've got to have this mindset that says, A, every
(03:36):
day we get trying to make a better product, and
b if we were down to our last thousand bucks,
what would we spend that on? And the answer should
be making, not marketing. So it was not about saying
we will never do marketing, because of course that would
be daft. It would be silly to make a better product,
a different product, and then not creatively tell people about that,
(03:59):
credibly share that with the world. The point was to
really think about our source of differentiation and to say
that's going to come from the quality of what we make,
not the cleverness of how we market.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
One aspect of four Pillars, I think that really stands out,
and I was just having a little pop onto your
website before we started recording, is something you believe is
really undervalued when it comes to brand, which is aesthetics.
And I'd love to know, like, what does this term
mean to you and how do you really infuse it
(04:35):
into your thinking around the Four Pillars brand.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
It's a great question, and it is going to reveal
what a hypocrite Having said that we're making marketers, I'm
going to talk about a key piece of marketing, which
is sort of design and imagery and aesthetics and all
those things. Look, the logic is pretty straightforward, and you're right,
I do think it is. It is something that people
(05:01):
consistently undervalue and underinvest in, and I'll tell you why
in the second But I'll first of all, I'll tell
you why I think it's important. For Four Pillars, the
logic is pretty straightforward. If we are makers not marketers,
or or to put it another way, if we are
makers first and only then are we're marketers. Then the
thought process was that the best way to get people
(05:21):
to appreciate what we're making is to get them as
close as we can to the process of making gin.
It's sort of the opposite of you know the old
cliche about if you ever saw a butcher maker sausage,
you never read a sausage again. Well, we want people
to see the sausage being made. We want people to
get up close and personal with the craft of making gin,
because if they do, they'll realize just had differentiated, just
(05:43):
have fantastic. The way that Cameron and the team at
Four Pillars Distillery and Heels will make gin is but
you can't force everyone, especially as you grow, as you
grow beyond that hardcore early adopter audience and you start
to reach a more mainstream consumer. You know, orbit it's
a mainstream consumer who can afford to spend eighty ninety
(06:05):
bucks on a bottle of gin, But nonetheless they're not
that hardcore early adopter audience, you're growing into a more
of a mainstream audience. You can't force all of them
to care as much as you do about the craft,
about the attention to detail. But what you can do
is lay down clues, is give them a sense of
(06:25):
the craft, a sense of the attention to detail, a
sense of how much you care about everything you do.
And if one of the ways that we can do
that is with the attention to detail, we apply to
other areas to design, to print, to photography, imagery, aesthetics, film,
always making sure that what's coming through is this sense
(06:48):
of care, this sense of quality, this sense of craft.
The second way it's really really important. I think that
this sense of aesthetics is we are in a fundamentally
sensory business. We're in an irrational business. We're in a
business of people feeling good, not just about the flavor
of the drink they make, the flavor of the gin
they taste, but the process of making it, the sense
(07:09):
of they're taking care of themselves, they're treating themselves. There's
a specialist to it. And so if we want to
sort of evoke those feelings and those emotions and those associations,
then we can't just let the liquid do the heavy lifting.
We've got to help it. We've got to help it
with the quality of the packaging, the quality of the imagery,
the photography. Again, so for all those reasons, both the
(07:31):
way that we are conveying our craft values, the way
that we're communicating something really important and inherent to four pillars,
which is that attend to detail, but also the way
that we're trying to evoke those same emotions, those same
sensory cues that we want the liquid and the drink
to For all those reasons, it's really really important to us.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
And how do you do that though? In terms of
having this really high standard with aesthetics? I mean, you know,
it's one thing to have brand guide signs that are
followed by everyone that works on visual aspects of the brand,
but like, how do you like uphold this really high
standard to have everything be you know, so esthetically like
(08:14):
pleasing and beautiful.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Well, first of all, it's nice to hear you say that. Secondly,
I guess there's different ways into that answer. You know,
one is how do you do it mechanically? Or you've
got to work with good people, and that's not just
about having people in the business with a great eye,
great understanding of how the brand should show up in
the world, great attention to detail. But not everyone has
(08:38):
that in their business, and that's okay. You've got to
have great partners. We work with phenomenal photographers, stylists, We've
got an incredible design and content agency, people I've been
working with for more than a decade now, who we
trust with our brand's life. But a different way to
answer that question is you've got to value it. You've
(08:59):
got to allocate both budget and time and attention to that.
You've got to not allow good enough to be good enough.
And I think this goes to it's kind of bigger
conversation about understanding what are the things that are going
(09:19):
to move the needle for your business and move the
needle for your brand, and making sure that having identified
those things, you invest appropriately in them and you don't
underinvest in them. Because we are all enormously constrained, aren't we,
in terms of not just the budgets we've got, but
the time we have, the emotional energy we have, and
(09:40):
it's very easy to allow something to get to a
point of good enough, that sense of that will do
and to go, oh, thank goodness, that's another thing ticked
off the list, and in some areas that will be
good enough for your business. But if these are things
that are going to help to define your business, to
(10:03):
differentiate your brand, then good enough is not going to
cut it. And so for us, the decision early on
was if Cameron, who's one of my co founders, was
going to make the best gin in the world, and
stew the third co founder, was going to go and
tell the best stories in the world and go and
knock down doors and do all the amazing stuff he
does building relationships, then one of the contributions I could
(10:25):
make from a brand point of view was to make
sure that every touch point of that liquid and that
story was as good as it could be and working
as hard as it could. And that is an exhausting effort.
That is a decision that you make to not let
things slide past you that clearly could be better, and
(10:46):
to surround yourself with people who when you sort of
run out of a little bit of energy and go, oh,
I don't know, I think maybe that design's good enough,
they go, I don't think it is. I think we
need to push again.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Now. Of course, related to everything that you've been describing
is creativity, and creativity is a really significant part of
the DNA of four pillars, and I would love to know, like,
at a practical level, how how do you promote and
foster creativity within the business and you know, within yourself
(11:19):
as well.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, there's a lot, There's a lot there isn't there.
And it's such a interesting word. Like I've I've had
an evolving relationship I think with the with the idea
of creativity. There have been moments in my career when
I've felt like creativity is almost sort of a term
(11:41):
that's thrown around too liberally and it becomes too democratic
and actually the act of creativity and sort of the
act of creative value creation through creativity should belong to
those people with a real sense of expertise and training
in that space. And then there've been other times and
I felt that it does need to be more democratized
(12:04):
and open to a wider range of contributions. I think
we're probably somewhere in the middle of that spectrum of
four pillars. The first thing to say is that we
are just incredibly lucky. But then, as the cliche goes,
I think we probably do a good job of making
our own luck. So I'll unpack that a bit. Where
(12:26):
we're incredibly lucky is primarily with Cameron. So Cameron is
the co founder who really matters. He is the well
he always reminds us there's no such thing as a
former Olympian. He is the Olympian who ran for Australia
in Atlanta. He was a foruna meter runner. He was
in the relay team there, made the semifinals. So he's
(12:46):
a really determined, relentless guy. He does not settle when
he feels there's something better to be done. And his
nation and his relentlessness turns out he doesn't just apply
that to doing the same thing better, He applies that
(13:07):
to doing different things. So with that, he's incredibly curious.
He's got this great palette and he's just got fantastic ideas.
And probably back when I was in the creative agency,
they're not ideas that I would have recognized as big ideas. Instead,
what they are a small ideas that he executes beautifully.
(13:28):
So I'll give you an example. He grew up one
of five boys, the youngest of five brothers, and every
derby day, every Victorian Derby Day, the weekend before Melbourne Cup.
His mum would get all the boys into the kitchen
and she would get to help make the Christmas puddings
for that year, and his dad would be in the
(13:49):
living room losing money on the races. And Cameron really
loved this tradition growing up. And so he's got three
daughters and so he sort of had the same tradition
with them and got them war into kitchen on Derby
Day to make Christmas puddings. And he's doing this back
in twenty fifteen to only a couple of years into
the Four Pillars journey, and he's looking at the ingredient
list and he's still using his mum's nineteen sixty eight
(14:10):
Woman's Weekly Christmas Pudding recipe and he's looking at all
the ingredients and he's going, these things would order still,
and so without telling me and stew, which is probably
one of the ingredients of creativity in this case, he
just goes down the distillery that afternoon. He gets the
girls to make a couple of extra puddings, and he
goes down the stillery that afternoon and he distills those
(14:33):
Christmas puddings and what results is a gin with a
lot of those Christmas pudding flavors. But then I said,
he's quite uncompromising, and he tastes it and he's like, well,
it's quite delicious. And I suspect a man for that.
Eight out of ten distillers who'd had that idea at
that point would have settled. But Cameron thought to himself,
(14:56):
a Christmas is avou indulgence, and this isn't indulgence enough.
It's not rich enough. And he thought, wait a minute.
There were some barrels that the mates who works in windery,
because again we're in the Ara Valley, so we've got
lots of friends in the wine industry. And I made
of the wind industry had showed up with this pair
of one hundred year old barrels a few weeks before.
(15:17):
And these barrels had come over from Scotland eighty years ago.
There'd been William Grant's whiskey barrels eighty years ago. They
came to Australia, they ended up in Rutherglen. They'd spent
eighty years aging musket. They were kind of run out
of their they've done done their time in musket. And
this guy said to Cameron would you like them, and
he was like, well maybe. So there were these two
hundred year old musket barrels lying around, and camera though, well,
(15:39):
what would happen if I aged the distilled Christmas pudding
gin in those hundred year old musket barrels? And so
he does that, and then you know, eight months later
he tastes it and he's like, yeah, it's nearly there.
And so he then goes to a friend who works
up in Rutherglen and says, can they get some fresh muskets?
Would to add a little bit of tweak to the
(16:00):
finish of that, to add that extra bit of richness.
And only at that point, when he had sort of
explored and played and done all of this in the
shadows did he come to me and Stewards say, guys,
I've made this. I think it's Christmas gin. I think
it smells like gin, but tastes like Christmas? What do
you think? And so, no permission, just a sense of
following his instincts, good instincts, not then settling when it
(16:24):
was okay, but really pushing to a point where he
was happy and he was proud. And there are plenty
of experiments that never made it to that benchmark and
never got to that level, so we never saw them.
But then I think, to further answer your question, that's
when the second act of creativity comes in to get right. Well,
we've got this product that Cameron's created. It seems quite delicious,
(16:46):
It's got a wonderful story behind it. How do we
now do justice to it? So I then started to think, well,
if this is an embodiment of Christmas, and it's a
family tradition of Camerons, how could we make it an
embodiment of Christmas for four Pillars and a family tradition,
not just for the four Pillars family, but for our
family of customers. And I thought, well, maybe the way
(17:07):
that we do that is by making it a present.
And if it's a present, it should be wrapped. So
rather than wrapping it in a traditional label and lots
of branding, what if we wrap it in a piece
of art. And so we had the idea of commissioning
original pieces of art from Australian artists who could show
(17:28):
us their take on the Australian Christmas experience, not the
cold Northern Hemisphere Christmas experience, but the beautiful, hot, sunny,
sweaty Christmas experience that I've learned to love because I'm
from the UK originally, but you know, for twenty years
i've heard to love our version of Christmas. And so
then that's the second act of creativity. How do we contextualize,
(17:48):
how do we wrap this up? And then I think
the last piece, you know, the law lessons from our
Christmas gin journey to make that work, to be able
to sell back to my partners, the idea of creating
a four pillars product with no four Pillars branding on it.
I needed to have control. So the artist I went
to in year one was not the best artists I
(18:10):
could find, or the best artists I could dream of,
all the most high profile artists. It's an artist I
could trust. So I went to a friend who did
beautiful work, but also where there was a trust based
relationship where I could really say, look, this is what
I need, this is where I needed to go, this
is the timeline I've got to meet because I've got
to get this in early. And so that balance of
big idea and control. So from Cameron, that sense of
(18:34):
following his instincts and following his nose, trusting his gut,
which you only get to do because you've mastered your craft,
because you've got an understanding in his case, of how
flavor comes together. So that mastery of your craft gives you,
even if you're not a hugely creative person, that opportunity
to then listen to your gut more. And that I
(18:54):
think is something really important about creativity at four pillars.
It's intrinsic, not extrinsic. Comes primarily from what we want
to make based on our understanding of our craft, our
passion for gin, our passion for flavor, our mastery of
Australian botanicals in this case Cameron following his gut. It
then comes I think we're in a world where great
(19:17):
execution beats great big ideas badly executed. So then it
comes from that willingness to really push at that idea
and perfect that idea and get it to a point
where you think it deserves a wider audience. And then
I think it comes from that desire and that determination
to push at every other touch point of that, which
(19:37):
goes back to that conversation about product experience, aesthetics and go,
look this product. This creative idea for a product is fantastic,
but it's not finished until we've addressed every other touch point.
And then that willingness and that ability to then go
outside of your business and say, who can add value
to this. In the case of Christmas Gin, it was artists.
(19:59):
And we've had now seven years and wonderful experiences working
with art is, first ones we knew, and increasingly ones
that we've sought out because we've admired their work and
built a great relationship with So I think our experience
is unique, Amantha, because it's it's jin because every experience
is unique. But I think there are relatable, I hope,
(20:21):
lessons for every business. One about you know that the
more you master your craft, the more you can trust
your instincts. The second about then recognizing that the power
of the idea on paper is not what's going to
help you win. It's going to be the power of
the idea executed and realized, and that in turn relies
on your ability to apply that real, uncompromising attention to detail.
(20:46):
But the last thing is also just just a willingness
to back instincts and to back ideas that are intrinsic.
And you and I talked a bit earlier in this
podcast about things that are perhaps undervalued in business today,
and I think instinct is one of them. Intrinsic innovation.
I think if you've got a really strong sense of
(21:09):
your purpose, a really strong sense of the value that
you create and could create in the world, I think
if you've got a really great handle on your craft,
or your source of expertise, or what it is that
differentiates you in your field, then I think you should
maybe trust your instincts a little bit more and not
(21:31):
always feel the need to question what does our customer
want next? Because often they don't know because they haven't
seen it. And I think that's something I'm really proud
of at Four Pillars that we've empowered first the founder
group with our different backgrounds and interests, but increasingly our
whole company to trust their instincts and to bring forward
(21:54):
ideas that are not always anchored in evidence, not always
anchored in well, this is what customers are asking for,
but instead anchored in a sense of four pillarsness. What
should four Pillars do next? What would the right thing
be for us to do and to make, and what
would it look like if we saw that through and
really fully committed to.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
It, we will be back with Matt Soon talking about
the frameworks he uses to make decisions. If you're looking
for more tips to improve the way that you work,
I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool
things that I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging
(22:33):
from software and gadgets that I'm loving through the interesting
research findings. You can sign up for that at Howiwork
dot code. That's how I work dot co. So an
important part of creativity is decision making, and it sounds
like you guys have made some brilliant decisions on which
ideas to move forward. And I've heard that you're a
(22:56):
fan of creating frameworks for decisions and you lack lists
of thought. Can you tell me about this, how you
create these frameworks for decision making?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Well, that does sound very grown up sized and perhaps
more structured, but look, it's true. I think, yeah, this
is a great question. I think at the heart of it,
what we're talking about is sort of the codification of
instincts and making sure that what you don't want to
(23:34):
do is correct frameworks that are so compelling that you
can talk yourself into bad decisions. But what you do
want to do, I think is just capture what it
is that is going to make you successful and sometimes retrospectively,
what has made you successful. So frameworks that we've built
at four Pillars include the four pillars of our purpose,
(23:58):
something we don't talk about really at all to our
external customers, but we talk about a lot internally. What
are the reasons why we exist, why we do these things,
why we matter in the world. And they are distilling cocktails,
modern Australia and community and we've got things to say
about all of them, but at the heart of it,
(24:18):
they are these four pillars of why we exist that
we can come back to. And so why that's helpful
is it gives people a lens that they can use
to talk about their ideas. So when they come to
the table and say, I've got this great idea for
a four pillars home in Sydney, and i don't think
we need another distillery, but I've looked at the purpose
and I'm thinking about that second pillar, to elevate and
(24:41):
celebrate the craft of the cocktail. As much as the
distillery is wonderful place, the distillery is really about the
first pillar of our purpose, to elevate the craft of
distilling gin. What if we built a home in Sydney
that was all about pillar number two, celebrating the craft
of a great cocktail, and it gives them a language,
It gives them something to hang that idea from that
(25:04):
then makes sense of it in the business and allows
us to explore it more and give it a center
of gravity, another structure or another little list of four
the four experienced principles, which really are about how we
want people to feel about us. That we want people
to experience four pillars as the most delicious, most creative,
(25:29):
most well designed and just most fun brand in gin.
And so that relationship between deliciousness and creativity and design
and fun helps give us guardrails. So as we're executing,
if I go back to the four pillars of the
boratory in Sydney and Surrey Hills, which is this beautiful
space anchored around this incredible bar, where the bartender and
(25:51):
the drink a sort of a sitting across this blue
juniper blue concrete bar, all on the same plane. It's
almost like a beautiful sushi counter in where you know,
chef and dinery unified around the space, except in this
case it's the bartender and the drinker. Now The reality
is as we executed that we could have got too serious.
You know, we worked with this incredible interior architect called
(26:14):
Yasmighanim and create this great space, but we could have
got too serious about the architecture and the craft of drinks,
making too invested in the creativity and the design strands
of our sort of experience principles. So then you come
back and you pull back to you but is it
going to be delicious? Is it going to be fun?
Are people are going to be relaxed enough to enjoy
(26:35):
their drink and feel like they're having a good time?
And so what these frameworks do? You know? Some give
you language to talk about ideas and how they fit
within the business. Some give you guardrails around design and
making sure that you're striking that right balance. You know.
I try and make sure that when we write marketing
strategies or when we build our growth strategies for a
(26:57):
market like the UK, that it comes down to typically
four key principles. I think it's about giving people language
that helps them to articulate why they think things are right.
What these frameworks should not become is a way of
bullying people into accepting ideas that are fundamentally bad. And
(27:18):
I think you know, I've worked a lot in the
in the corporate space over the years, and sometimes you
see these sort of values frameworks or these behaviors, and
the language around them is so flexible that they can
almost become this coverall that could support any idea, no
matter how bad. And I think that's the danger of frameworks.
So the other thing I'd say is that a framework
(27:40):
is only as good as the story it allows you
to tell. So as much as I like business to
have these frameworks and these lists, what I always want
to be behind them as stories. And something I really
encourage our team to do is to start presentations and
to start meetings and to start proposals of new ideas
is with're telling the story of why this is the
(28:02):
right thing to do and going back to those first
principles and using narrative language. I'm a big admirer of
that sort of narrative approach that Amazon has taken. The
Bezos took to making sure that decisions of Amazon were well considered.
I mean, we don't write the same three page long
form essays about our ideas, but let's still trying to
encourage that same sense of storytelling, So framework's useful, but
(28:26):
behind those frameworks needs to be a sense of narrative
and story. And frameworks should help people develop and anchor
their proposals and their designs and their thinking, but they
shouldn't be able to be used as a tool to
sort of ram bad ideas through the business. If you
see what to being.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Well, Matt, I have loved listening to your stories about
four Pillars, and for people that are wanting to engage
with four Pillars but maybe haven't, what are some good
ways for people to do that?
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Well, we write beautiful emails, so they can always jump
onto four Pillars gin dot com and sign up to
be on Wilmer's list. There's so much that we haven't
talked about today.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
You know.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
One of those things is that sense of building community
with your customers and treating your customers as family. And
I'd like to think that we do that over over
our emails. We're not too spammy, we're not too salesy.
We're really just trying to include people on the on
the journey and tell them the stories of what we're doing.
Whether it's you know, why our stills are named after
(29:34):
our mums or a new product we've released are a
little you know, small batch collaboration with an interesting brand
that is going to be here today and gone tomorrow.
So probably the best way is to sign up to
get emails. But equally, you know, I'm always happy to
get messages from folks and chat on LinkedIn. I'm very
easy to find Matt Jones. Four Pillars will get you there,
follow us on Instagram, and most importantly you've all come
(29:56):
and say hi in Heelsville or if you can't make
it a Heelsville come and say hi, and Sydney and
you know, come and have a drink and a tasting
and see what we do in the real world.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Amazing. Matt, Well, thank you so much for your time
and sharing what has gone on behind the scenes around
how four Pillars has been created and has gone from
gosh like is it nine years ago being born to
very quickly becoming the world's best gin brand. So thank you.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Thanks, Mantha, great to chat.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
I loved hearing about Matt's obsession with aesthetics. It's something
that made me think about my own company Inventium, where
we do care a lot about the way things look,
as is hopefully obvious if you check out our website
at inventium dot com dot are you. But I don't
think we obsess over it enough. I mean, most of
what we produce is quite beautiful, I think, but then
(30:53):
there'll be details that we miss, like workshop handouts that
are in old branding or that just don't look as schmick. Anyway,
this interview made me take stock and think about the
impact that paying more attention to these details could have
on people's perceptions of the Inventium brand. How I Work
is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios.
(31:15):
The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank
you to my Nimba, who does the audio mix for
every episode and makes everything sound so much better than
it would have otherwise.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
See you next time.
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