May 2, 2022 • 39 mins
A productivity tip that’s hard to swallow for people who like productivity tips: nothing except doing the work will get the work done. You can have the cleanest calendar, the emptiest inbox and the tightest morning routine, but if you’re not sitting down and putting in the work, your “hacks” serve as little more than decoration.
Unless those tips and tricks steer you towards the right kind of deep work? Liane Moriarty, the incredibly prolific author of Big Little Lies, Nine Perfect Strangers and Apples Never Fall, uses a website blocker, puts her phone outside her office, and even uses a little egg timer for “Pomodoro” sessions. But all of these techniques serve a much greater function - the rituals program her to do the actual writing!
Connect with Liane on her website, and pick up a copy of Nine Perfect Strangers
You can find the full interview here: Big Little Lies author Liane Moriarty on writing, self-talk, and what she’s learned from Nicole Kidman and Reese Witherspoon
***
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If you’re looking for more tips to improve the way you work, I write a fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things I have discovered that help me work better, which range from interesting research findings through to gadgets I am loving. You can sign up for that at http://howiwork.co
Visit https://www.amantha.com/podcast for full show notes from all episodes.
Get in touch at amantha@inventium.com.au
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Produced by Inventium
Host: Amantha Imber
Sound Engineer: Martin Imber
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
When I think about knowledge work and how to do
it well, I'm sure I'm not alone in picturing the
novelist bent over a desk in the dead of night,
burning the midnight oil, sucking on the end of a
pen as she tries to break that crucial last act
of her story. And I know I'm not alone in
(00:23):
my fascination with the schedules of great writers from history.
I mean, whole books are dedicated to examining the daily
routines of everyone from Ernest Hemingway to Virginia Wolf. We're
obsessed with the image of the writer and insatiably curious
about how they brought are culture's greatest works into being,
(00:43):
and this definitely applies to the modern writer. Leanne Moriarty
is the author behind Big Little Lies, Nine Perfect Strangers,
and The Husband's Secret, among many others. She's the first
Australian author ever today debut a novel at number one
on the New York Times Bestsellers list, and the Emmy
(01:07):
winning HBO adaptation of Big Little Eyes, co produced by
and starring Nicole Kidman and Rhys Rieverspoon, propelled her to
international stardom. And also, let's not forget the more recent
Amazon adaptation of Nine Perfect Strangers. But does that romantic
image of the solitary artist ring true in the modern
(01:30):
day for Leanne? And how does she stay focused in
our age of distraction? Is she using modern tools or
does she look to the past for scheduling inspiration? And
how does Leanne tame her inner critic in her head?
(01:51):
My name is doctor Romantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist
and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium. And this
is how I work, a show about how to help
you do your best work. Leanne has achieved such an
incredible amount as an author, I mean maybe more than
any other modern Australian author. So with their latest book,
(02:14):
Apple's Never Fall, hitting bookshelves last month, how does she
think about what's next?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, it does take me a while to get back
into writing mode again, So I definitely I can't be
the sort of person who does an interview and then
goes and sits down and writes, because I feel like
they're two different parts of me that are working.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
One is I'm I am a writer and right now
I feel I'm performing as a writer. I'm too self conscious.
If I sat down and wrote now, because I will
have talked about, oh, I don't plan my books, and
then I'll sit down and think, oh, look at me
not planning my books. I can't stand it. I need
(03:02):
to have a little break in between this side of things.
So once I've finished, you know, the publicity tour for
a new book, I have a few weeks off and
then I do none of these sort of events or
podcasts or anything, which I know is not the case
for all authors. Some authors seem to be able to
(03:23):
simultaneously handle handle both sides. But I need to stop
because when I write, I need to lose my sense
of self. And so I guess what I'll do is,
once I've finished, we'll eventually by myself a special, very
fancy new notebook, which I'll take a lot of time
(03:47):
choosing one of those expensive ones, you know, the gorgeous
ones with the really lovely covers, and you know, to
be honest, I don't actually do all that much with
the notepad. It seems to be part of the pros.
I like the thought of myself going to cafes and
writing notes in it, or going to special locations, but
(04:09):
really only write a few pages, and then that seems
to be enough to get me going, and then I
just sit at my computer. I can't do I can't
do the jk rowling thing and write it all, write
it at cafes. I have two sisters who are authors,
and both of them can do that, and I try
(04:31):
because I love the idea of it, but I seem
to need to have my keyboard and my monitor in
front of me.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Let's dig into your writing process a bit more and
tell me what does a typical day look like when
you are mid book.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Well, I don't have I don't have too many typical
days in the way that I've heard some authors describe them,
where they say I get up at this time and
I drink this particular drink, and I walk here and
then I sit down and do two hours before ten am.
I don't have a strip schedule like that at all. Yes, So,
(05:13):
which is why when I told my husband I was
speaking on this podcast, he found it hilarious that I
would have anything to say about being adding productivity. And
I do have two young children, so I work within
the school day, but every day feels a little bit
different depending on on what's going on with them or
(05:38):
even how I feel that day, so I did. When
the children were babies, I used to have a babysitter
who would come for three hours at a time, and
I did find that before having the babysitter, compared for
before children, I became more productive because I would only
(06:01):
have her for the three hours. I would have to
close the office doore, and I couldn't come out for
another cup of tea because that would be embarrassing because
she'd know that I had just had one. And so
I do think in my mind I've still kept up
since then, and I think I wrote really well in
(06:22):
that time because time was so precious and because I
was paying somebody to so I knew I had to work.
I couldn't just I don't know, serve the internet. But
so ever since then, I've started to think of my
writing as being in a three hour shift, so to
think I'll do it. I'll do a shift now, so
(06:46):
you know it might be ten to one.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I do do. I use the.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Freedom, the program Freedom, which I'm sure you know about
that I've seen it in lots of authors acknowledgments that
it restricts your access to the Internet, and.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Can I actually ask how you use Freedom? So for
those that are not familiar with it. I think the
website is Freedom dot two and there's a free version,
and you can block websites and you can block software
at certain times of day. So can you tell me
how you specifically use freedom?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Well, well, one embarrassing problems. I thought that freedom restricted everything.
I thought it didn't let me get email either. And
I believed this for a long time. So because I
believed it, I therefore didn't check my email. So I
(07:40):
would So the way I used it was just And
what was wonderful about it was that it makes me
feel like it's programming me to write. So you could
put in a certain amount of time that you Internet
would be restricted so you could program and I'd say
normally my three hour or even I might think, especially
(08:02):
if I'm at the beginning of a book where it's
hard to get into the flow, so I think, okay,
just write for an hour. But for whatever amount of time,
I think, wonderful, I'm going I know, I'm going to
write for that amount of time. But yes, then I
discovered I think emails still.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Coming through.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
One so new that I was still getting emailed, then
there was nothing to stop me from checking email. It's
very embarrassing. I actually wrote to the people who make
it and said please, it used to stop me from
getting and they said, no, we can't do that. Sorry. Yes,
(08:43):
and it's worse these days since the pandemic. You know,
the habit of doom scrolling through your phone, so I
need the phone not to be near me too.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Now I've heard that you have a beautiful ornate egg
timer to help with productivity. Can you tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yes, it's just a gift that a friend gave me,
and I think it goes for thirty minutes, So I
just use that, especially when I'm.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
At the beginning of a book. So it's fine.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Once a book has momentum, which seems to happen about
maybe a third of the way through, I don't need
it as much because I can I know my characters,
and I can see where the story's going. But in
the beginning of a new novel, I'm always flailing about.
There's a lot of a lot of self loathing and
(09:40):
just I can't do this. And sometimes even when you
sit down to write a book in the beginning, I
feel almost silly. You know, what are you doing here?
Making up a story that feels foolish. So the point
of the egg timer is just to say I will
write and for the next until that last grain of
set and falls through, and I won't think about it.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I will have no.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
You know, what's what's the word critical? I can't think
of the word. But I done self talk, just the
self talk, just to I can't think I'm trying to say,
but that it's just just right and it doesn't matter
if it's bad, if it's good, it doesn't matter. You
(10:24):
just must write for the next and it's thirty minutes,
and that often does finally gets you get you going.
So often the first few lines are this is stupid,
this is you know, just what ever anything? And then
finally it's always that losing your sense of self where
that you just find and you know, athletes talk about it,
(10:46):
getting in the zone and meditators talk about it, and
it's and that I think it's just called flow when
you finally achieve that, which is the most glorious.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Feeling of aught, which is basically why I write.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
When you look up from the computer and you sort
of blink because you've been lost in that world.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Have you found any tricks to get yourself in to
flow more quickly or more predictably.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
No only to just to no I want them, no
only just to write the thing I do. I'm not
a planner, so I don't know what's going to happen
with my books. So that means it's a really fun
way to write, because I sit down at my desk
(11:38):
each day and think, I wonder what's going to happen today.
But it's also a scary, scary way to write, because
I sit down and think, I hope something happens today.
So the thing I do is I often edit a
little bit of what I've done.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
The day before because it's too.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Scary to just start write something new. I have to
trick myself into it. So if I'm just fixing up
a couple of sentences of what I've written the day before,
then I can sort of side all my way into
the story.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
So for you, how does the plot or the structure
of a book emerge? Because something I find about all
of your books is that they've got such intricate and
gripping plots, but also such well drawn out characters. And
I'm so surprised that for hear you talk about how
(12:34):
you sit down at the beginning, and you don't quite
know where it's going to go. So how does that evolve?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, so I always just start with a premise, and so,
for example, with Apples Never for this new book, I
knew that I would have the mother disappearing. I knew
that I would have somebody knocking on the door. So
(13:02):
I knew I had had an elderly mother who disappears,
and that the father is obviously the chief suspect her
in her possible murder. And I also had this idea
from an article I've read, even though it's not a
particularly unique literary device to have a stranger appear, but
(13:22):
I'd actually read an article about an elderly couple who
had a young woman knock on their door late at night,
and they let her in and let her stay the night.
So I knew I wanted that, and then I just
but I have no idea at the beginning of the novel.
I don't know where she's disappeared. I don't know how
(13:44):
this young woman who knocks on the door, how she's
going to connect. But at least it's enough to start
my first chapter. And so while I'm writing my first chapter,
I'm just constantly thinking, so maybe it's this, or maybe
it's that, And then I I can see a tiny
way ahead, so I think, well, I know, so she's
staying the night, so what will happen during the night.
(14:07):
And then as I'm writing the characters, I'm getting to
know them. So I always miss my characters from my
previous book when I'm writing a new book. So with
this one, I missed my nine perfect Strangers because I
knew them so well. So in the beginning of a novel,
my characters feel very wooden and cartoonish. But then through
(14:30):
the process of writing them, so I'm trying different things.
Then about a third of the way in, then I think, OK,
now I know this person. They start to move for me.
So there's a slightly magical process that happens where you know,
I might have taken one attribute a real person's attribute. So,
(14:51):
for example, with big little Eyes, with the character of Madeline,
I can always remember that I wrote down perpetually outraged
like so and so, and also shimmery, shimmery, sparkly girl
like so and so and so. I had those two attributes,
and then I started writing her, and then she became Madeline.
(15:12):
He was, in fact nothing like either of those two
real people. But it sometimes helps to have just a
particular attribute. So I would say often will take real
people's attributes, but I've never ever taken an entire personality.
They become their own people. So once I know my characters,
then I can go back to the beginning and think, well,
(15:35):
she wouldn't have said this, or she wouldn't have responded
like this, or I've got particular speech patterns that she
might use, and I can put those in and in
the same way. Once I know what's going to happen,
so I know where she is, I knew worked out
who this woman was who knocked on the door. Then
(15:56):
I can go back and change things. I can put
in my red hairing, I can signpost certain things. I
always have a separate document called things I need to fix,
because I am working it.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Out as I go along.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
So you know, now you know, in this book, I
had the characters Stan. He doesn't own a mobile phone,
which I needed him not to own a mobile phone,
but I didn't know that in the beginning. So in
the beginning I have him lying in bed looking through
his mobile phone. So obviously I'm going to have to
go back and fix that. So I never want to
(16:31):
give the impression that even though I don't plan and
that it just sort of flows from me making perfect
sense somehow along the way. It's just I don't know.
I'm working it out as I go along, and then
I'm going back and rearranging the jigsaw pieces.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
That's fascinating. Now, I want to know with the premise
I mean, and I'm just I'm so intrigued by what
you know in your head when you start writing a
book and just how much evolves. How do you know
that you've got the right premise to begin with.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I think I just know if I'm interested enough that
I keep thinking about it, so because I know I've
had other things where they've been in my head, and
then if it doesn't stay with me, then I let
it go. But if you know, if I'm just going
for a walk and I keep thinking of that idea,
(17:30):
And I did just find that idea interesting of how
would you feel if your mother? So how would I
feel as an adult if my mother had gone missing
and people were saying they believed my father had murdered
my mother? And how And I found that interesting and
also thinking about how would my siblings feel, so that
(17:54):
then gives you each sibling can have a different perspective
and then you can have factions form. So just if
it keeps unfurling in my mind, then I think, I
think I'll.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Go with this.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
But it's terrifying because there and I think, I hope
it's going I hope it's going to work.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
We will be back very soon talking about how Leanne
keeps herself motivated when she's working on a book, the
celebration rituals that she has after typing the words the end,
and also how she manages critical self talk. Now, if
you are interested in consuming more content from me, maybe
(18:40):
follow me on the socials because I post various bits
of hopefully interesting things there. You can find me on
LinkedIn just search for Amantha INBA and on Instagram find
me at Amantha I, and also on Twitter at Amantha. Now,
how do you stay motivated when writing a book because
(19:02):
it's such a big, long process, and particularly you mentioned
that the first third where you're still figuring things out,
can be really kind of daunting. How are you maintaining motivation?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, it's horrible.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
In the beginning, there is a lot of flailing about
trying to trying to make myself work. There are just
little things, little rewards. I do have a notebook where
I write down my word count for each day, so
you know, in the if I'd written with an old
fashioned typewriter, you'd see your page, your pile of pages
(19:40):
growing next to you. But in this case, all I
can do is write down my word count. So I'm
constantly counting words because that's your pile of pages that
you can see growing. So I do tend to this
is sort of embarrassing. I write down little like, you know,
a thousand words today, well, and a little praise for
(20:02):
myself for a little stars you did.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Well, what else are you doing to encourage yourself along
the way.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Well, I think that's I think that's just in that
beginning bit. It really is just seeing the word count.
But of course, now I've got a contract, so now
I've got a deadline, and I'm well behaved, so i'm
you know, I want to I want to please my publishers,
(20:39):
so it is my job. With my first book, I
wrote it as part of a master's degree, and in
a way I often wondered would I have been able
to have written my first book without that structure because
I was just trying to impress the teacher and the
(21:00):
other students. So it was wonderful having other students to
give feedback each each week. So perhaps you could have
achieved the same thing with a writer's group, but I
was you know, that was expensive, that that degree, so
I was paying money for it, and so it made
(21:20):
it feel like I want to I want to please
the teacher, I want to show off to the other students.
So that kept me going to get me through. But
now now it's the contract that does it. But yeah,
it's hard because it's a funny job in the you know,
you could I could say tomorrow I will do nothing
and that will make no difference, so I won't get
(21:42):
into trouble for that and the next day and the
next day. But there's a certain number of days where
you better, you know, get onto it because otherwise you'll
you'll miss your deadline.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, how about when you finish your book? Do you
have any rituals to celebrate or mark the end of
a book?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Only that I go to a particular restaurant which I'm
not allowed to go to at the moment with Sydney
in lockdown and have a particular cocktail or two. And yeah,
that's just it's really just that dinner. It's the best,
it is the best feeling. And I always write the
(22:25):
words the end when I finished, even though the words
the end don't actually appear in a novel. I like
writing the end, and I never I know some authors,
do you know they do different drafts, whereas I'm redrafting
(22:45):
as I go. So therefore I often might hold off
writing that last paragraph or that last scene because I
really want to be able to say the end once
I've written it. I don't, you know, my things I
need to fix document, I don't I want all that done.
So yeah, so it's a bit. It's just allowing me
(23:11):
that thrill, the thrill of goosebumps when you write the end.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Love that now, I imagine with every book that you write,
and just the huge success that they've all had, that
sense of pressure when you start the next piece of
work that you're going to create, like must I don't
know if that's cumulative, but I want to know what's like,
how do you manage that pressure?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Well, I guess I just have to put it all aside.
With this book, I had a little bit I asked
for extra time. So normally I have a book out
every two years, and with this book, it's been three years.
And I did love that because I felt I felt
(24:01):
a sense of freedom in that. I was thinking, you
know my terror that I described, I hope it's going
to work this time. I was thinking, work, it doesn't work,
It's okay, I've got time. I can throw it all away,
and eventually it just disappears because then the story takes over.
So then I'm interested enough in my characters and I'm
(24:22):
having fun with it. So it's just getting through those
first early months and knowing the good bits coming where
I'll just be in with them, and just looking forward
to spending the day with those characters.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yeah, and it sounds like managing that self talk is
just so critical.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Oh, it really is.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
What strategies have you found to help with that, either
that you use on your own or maybe that your
husband or friends help with.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Oh, nothing, nothing particularly innovative. I guess the fact that
I've done it. I've done it before, and this is
what always happens. It's it's like the process of doing
a spin class. So when you do it. Anytime I
(25:15):
do a spin class, I can hardly bear those.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
First few songs.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
You know, you know, you're puffing and you're panting, and
just thinks, oh this is this is just horrible. And
then somehow something happens and you warm up, I guess,
and you're in doorphins go and I just think, you
know it will come. It's just you've just got a
puffy way through. So maybe that's all. It's just telling
(25:42):
myself it will it will come, and doing lots of
those those little, those sappy little messages I write to myself.
You might talk to talk to friends who you say
you can do it, but no, you just got to
power your way through.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I want to talk about the process for seeing your
books made into TV shows, and I'd love to know
with big little lies, which I imagine a lot of people
have seen. I personally loved it, loved the book, love
the show. How involved you in that process? What did
(26:22):
that look like behind the scenes.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Well?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I wasn't involved in a hands on way at all.
So I was asked if I wanted to write the screenplay.
But as I said, for me that one of the
biggest pleasures of writing is not knowing what's going to happen.
So to me, the thought of rewriting my own book
(26:49):
for another medium. Actually, it just makes me want to
cry with boredom. I just can think of nothing worse.
So I was never interested in And I also always
have believed that adaptations should not be too faithful to
the source material, that there are some changes that should
(27:12):
be made to suit film or television. And I know
that if I was doing it then I would hold
on to tightly, so I was very happy to just
hand it over. And of course, when I heard that
David E. Kelly was writing the screenplay for Big Little Eyes,
(27:32):
I was thrilled and knew I was in safe hands.
So I was just a very interested bystander. And I
do think I was very lucky because I don't think
every author has that experience in that they kept me,
They kept me involved without me actually having to do anything,
but I always felt part of it. So they were
(27:55):
just lovely to me. And I had the fun of
visiting the set and you know, texting me photos from
the set, and I got to be there on the
night that they were filming the Big School Trivia night,
so that was an amazing night to be there. So
(28:16):
just to see the process, the whole the whole thing,
from catering to the set design to the costumes.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
I just I just loved it.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I imagine that it must be this sort of strange
balancing act, like when you're a writer, but a really
successful one who part of your job is being on
the book tour, the pr circuit talking about your work
after you've gone through quite a solitary process creating it,
and it's very clear that you're much more comfortable in
(28:49):
the writing side of things. How how do you manage
your energy? I guess for when you're in the part
of the process that you're in now, which is talking
about your work.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Well, yeah, it's hard. Did my energy just drop? Did
you feel No?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
I did it. I did it.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
But having read a lot.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Of interviews with you, I know that that's the thing
for you, like that you know this is not your
favorite part of the process.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
I know I should stop saying that. And the fact is,
which has really really been clarified by the pandemic, is
that I do love meeting readers. So I miss the
book tours because I do love that part of my job,
(29:35):
meeting people and hearing readers say, you know, your book
got me through a difficult time or you know, things
that they related to in the book, whether it was
about infertility or domestic violence. Sold have had some really
emotional conversations in the signing line. So I do find
(29:56):
that actually I didn't realize how much I would miss that,
which I have this time, but this side of it,
so I enjoy talking to you. It's the aftermath where
I can go into a spiral of anxiety thinking, oh,
why did you say that? Or I shouldn't have said this,
(30:18):
or you know, replaying everything. It's just an agony of
self consciousness. I feel like when I grow up, I'll
get over that. I'm not sure when I'm going to
grow when I'm sixty.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
How do you get through that then? Because that must
be tiring, like, you know, going, oh God, did I
say that? What did I say?
Speaker 2 (30:42):
You know?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Did I sound okay?
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Yes? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I just have to I don't know. I don't Sometimes
I think, oh, I'm good, I can do this now,
I'm good at this, But then you forget because you
go back into an entirely different way of working, which
is where you're sitting at your at your desk and
you know, talking to friends and family. I sometimes think
(31:08):
it's not good when I get to when I've been
doing too many events, and then I think, oh, no,
you're starting to like this. You're actually starting to like
the sound of your own voice. Look at you and
so there, so that's not good either. I do get
(31:29):
smoother towards the end I'm watching others. I always remember
watching being on the Red Carpet with Nicole and she
was asked, you know, all those cameras are flashing, and
somebody said to her, A journalist said to her something like,
I'll describe describe the series in just a couple of lines.
(31:53):
And I thought to myself, Oh, my goodness, how she
How is she going to do that? Because I think
of every interviewers question as if it's a test and
that I must answer correctly and accurately. And Nicole said, oh,
I'm not going to do that. Watch the series. She said,
it's impossible, and you just moved on. And it was
(32:15):
such a revelation to me that actually, I'm allowed to
You can say no, I can't do that. It's not
a it's not a test.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Love that now.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I mean, you've worked with some incredibly amazing people and
women like Nicole and like Reese Witherspoon would have been
some of the best pieces of advice or things that
they've taught you.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
I don't know that.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I don't think they've given me advice as such, but
things I've learned. Just as I said, by watching them
deal with the media, I have been inspired by their
past and their enthusiasm. It wasn't what I expected. I thought.
(33:06):
I thought that'd be perhaps more cynical or jaded about
the business, but they weren't at all. They still love
what they do, They still care very much about what
they do, and I was really it sounds silly that
I didn't expect them to care to care as much
(33:27):
as I do. I think I thought that'd be cooler
and colder, especially when it came to me, and perhaps
more dismissive with me. But in fact, they're just lovely
and warm and welcoming and cared very much about their work.
So that was the main thing that I've been inspired by.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Now I'm curious about reviews, and one of the things
about putting creative work in the public is that you
get reviews, and some are amazing and some are not.
What's your process for I guess, like reading reviews. Do
you read reviews and how do you deal with negative ones?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Well? I did, I did, used to read all my reviews.
And apparently I said that in an interview because somebody
put that she quoted my strange hearing my own self
say that. Apparently I said I read all my reviews,
and I no longer.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
The fact is I no longer do that. That was
my younger self.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
So I do not look at reader reviews because of
that tendency to you know, you can see ten wonderful reviews,
but it's only the you know, the one negative review
will be the one that gets stuck in your head.
And those voices can get terribly stuck in your head
(34:55):
and you take them, you know, just one person. I'm
trying to think there was one example of something where
I realized I was doing it to please that one person.
I can't think now, but yeah, and then you're ignoring
all the positive comments. So, for example, I know that
(35:21):
sometimes people get disappointed because my books. Sometimes I think
a're marketed too much as thrillers, and I don't think
they're they're thrilling enough to be thrillers. So if you
if you love a thriller, then you might come to
my book and think and become impatient and think, you know,
I get a move on because I'm going too much
(35:42):
into my character's backstories or whatever. But if I listen
too much to that, then the readers who do love
that side of it, then you know that, then I
wouldn't be giving them what they enjoy. So I just
have to write the way of I've always written. But yes,
certain certain reviews. So for example, I can remember reading
(36:08):
one read review many many years ago, and she said,
she's just trying to sound Australian. She's got the characters.
She said, I know somebody who lives in that area
and nobody. They don't call each other mate. And so
(36:29):
now all these years later, whenever I hear anybody saying
oh thanks mate, or whatever, I think to myself, I
have this resemful See see, of course they do. It's
so ridiculous. What does it matter that this one person
I can't get her out of my head? Wow?
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Fair enough. Now, I mentioned to you before we started
recording that I'm about a third of the way through
Apple's Never Fall, and when I'm interviewing someone that has
written their latest book, I'll always have finished it before
the interview, but I said to you, like, I mean,
I've been so looking forward to your next book to
come out because I've read all of your books and
(37:13):
I love them, and it's like, I just love the
process of savoring fiction and that's what I'm doing. But
I must say I'm loving it so far. So for
people that are keen to get their hands on Apple's
never before or consume anything that you have put into
the world. What is the best way for people to
do that?
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Oh, just wherever you buy books, a local bookshop that
you support, that's wonderful. But of course you can also
buy books online. My books are on Audible, my books
are on you can read on your kindles. So however
you buy your books. And my audio narrator is Caroline Lee,
(37:58):
who I know people love, so I would like to
thank her because she adds to my reader's enjoyment. So
wherever you find your books, you should hopefully find a
Lean Mariatti book.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Fantastic, amazing. Well, I've just I've loved chatting with you.
I love everything that you put out into the world.
So thank you so much for bringing so much joy
to my life.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Oh, thank you, Amantha. Thank you. That's a lovely comic.
Thank you so much. I've enjoyed talking to you too,
I promise I really have.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Oh good, that makes me feel good. Thank you so
much for listening. I hope you found some inspiration in
some of Leanne's methods for how she approaches her work.
And if you are not a subscriber or follower of
How I Work, now might be the time to hit
(38:50):
that button wherever you listen to your podcast, because next
week we'll be continuing this theme of wellness at work,
which I've been at during the month of October, and
I will be talking to the ex CEO of Swiss Wellness,
radex Sally, about how he tested his DNA and how
(39:11):
that really changed his behavior. How I Work is produced
by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. The
producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you
to Martin Nimba, who did the audio mix and makes
everything sound better than it would have otherwise. See you
next time.
When I think about knowledge work and how to do
it well, I'm sure I'm not alone in picturing the
novelist bent over a desk in the dead of night,
burning the midnight oil, sucking on the end of a
pen as she tries to break that crucial last act
of her story. And I know I'm not alone in
(00:23):
my fascination with the schedules of great writers from history.
I mean, whole books are dedicated to examining the daily
routines of everyone from Ernest Hemingway to Virginia Wolf. We're
obsessed with the image of the writer and insatiably curious
about how they brought are culture's greatest works into being,
(00:43):
and this definitely applies to the modern writer. Leanne Moriarty
is the author behind Big Little Lies, Nine Perfect Strangers,
and The Husband's Secret, among many others. She's the first
Australian author ever today debut a novel at number one
on the New York Times Bestsellers list, and the Emmy
(01:07):
winning HBO adaptation of Big Little Eyes, co produced by
and starring Nicole Kidman and Rhys Rieverspoon, propelled her to
international stardom. And also, let's not forget the more recent
Amazon adaptation of Nine Perfect Strangers. But does that romantic
image of the solitary artist ring true in the modern
(01:30):
day for Leanne? And how does she stay focused in
our age of distraction? Is she using modern tools or
does she look to the past for scheduling inspiration? And
how does Leanne tame her inner critic in her head?
(01:51):
My name is doctor Romantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist
and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium. And this
is how I work, a show about how to help
you do your best work. Leanne has achieved such an
incredible amount as an author, I mean maybe more than
any other modern Australian author. So with their latest book,
(02:14):
Apple's Never Fall, hitting bookshelves last month, how does she
think about what's next?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, it does take me a while to get back
into writing mode again, So I definitely I can't be
the sort of person who does an interview and then
goes and sits down and writes, because I feel like
they're two different parts of me that are working.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
One is I'm I am a writer and right now
I feel I'm performing as a writer. I'm too self conscious.
If I sat down and wrote now, because I will
have talked about, oh, I don't plan my books, and
then I'll sit down and think, oh, look at me
not planning my books. I can't stand it. I need
(03:02):
to have a little break in between this side of things.
So once I've finished, you know, the publicity tour for
a new book, I have a few weeks off and
then I do none of these sort of events or
podcasts or anything, which I know is not the case
for all authors. Some authors seem to be able to
(03:23):
simultaneously handle handle both sides. But I need to stop
because when I write, I need to lose my sense
of self. And so I guess what I'll do is,
once I've finished, we'll eventually by myself a special, very
fancy new notebook, which I'll take a lot of time
(03:47):
choosing one of those expensive ones, you know, the gorgeous
ones with the really lovely covers, and you know, to
be honest, I don't actually do all that much with
the notepad. It seems to be part of the pros.
I like the thought of myself going to cafes and
writing notes in it, or going to special locations, but
(04:09):
really only write a few pages, and then that seems
to be enough to get me going, and then I
just sit at my computer. I can't do I can't
do the jk rowling thing and write it all, write
it at cafes. I have two sisters who are authors,
and both of them can do that, and I try
(04:31):
because I love the idea of it, but I seem
to need to have my keyboard and my monitor in
front of me.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Let's dig into your writing process a bit more and
tell me what does a typical day look like when
you are mid book.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Well, I don't have I don't have too many typical
days in the way that I've heard some authors describe them,
where they say I get up at this time and
I drink this particular drink, and I walk here and
then I sit down and do two hours before ten am.
I don't have a strip schedule like that at all. Yes, So,
(05:13):
which is why when I told my husband I was
speaking on this podcast, he found it hilarious that I
would have anything to say about being adding productivity. And
I do have two young children, so I work within
the school day, but every day feels a little bit
different depending on on what's going on with them or
(05:38):
even how I feel that day, so I did. When
the children were babies, I used to have a babysitter
who would come for three hours at a time, and
I did find that before having the babysitter, compared for
before children, I became more productive because I would only
(06:01):
have her for the three hours. I would have to
close the office doore, and I couldn't come out for
another cup of tea because that would be embarrassing because
she'd know that I had just had one. And so
I do think in my mind I've still kept up
since then, and I think I wrote really well in
(06:22):
that time because time was so precious and because I
was paying somebody to so I knew I had to work.
I couldn't just I don't know, serve the internet. But
so ever since then, I've started to think of my
writing as being in a three hour shift, so to
think I'll do it. I'll do a shift now, so
(06:46):
you know it might be ten to one.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I do do. I use the.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Freedom, the program Freedom, which I'm sure you know about
that I've seen it in lots of authors acknowledgments that
it restricts your access to the Internet, and.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Can I actually ask how you use Freedom? So for
those that are not familiar with it. I think the
website is Freedom dot two and there's a free version,
and you can block websites and you can block software
at certain times of day. So can you tell me
how you specifically use freedom?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Well, well, one embarrassing problems. I thought that freedom restricted everything.
I thought it didn't let me get email either. And
I believed this for a long time. So because I
believed it, I therefore didn't check my email. So I
(07:40):
would So the way I used it was just And
what was wonderful about it was that it makes me
feel like it's programming me to write. So you could
put in a certain amount of time that you Internet
would be restricted so you could program and I'd say
normally my three hour or even I might think, especially
(08:02):
if I'm at the beginning of a book where it's
hard to get into the flow, so I think, okay,
just write for an hour. But for whatever amount of time,
I think, wonderful, I'm going I know, I'm going to
write for that amount of time. But yes, then I
discovered I think emails still.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Coming through.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
One so new that I was still getting emailed, then
there was nothing to stop me from checking email. It's
very embarrassing. I actually wrote to the people who make
it and said please, it used to stop me from
getting and they said, no, we can't do that. Sorry. Yes,
(08:43):
and it's worse these days since the pandemic. You know,
the habit of doom scrolling through your phone, so I
need the phone not to be near me too.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Now I've heard that you have a beautiful ornate egg
timer to help with productivity. Can you tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yes, it's just a gift that a friend gave me,
and I think it goes for thirty minutes, So I
just use that, especially when I'm.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
At the beginning of a book. So it's fine.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Once a book has momentum, which seems to happen about
maybe a third of the way through, I don't need
it as much because I can I know my characters,
and I can see where the story's going. But in
the beginning of a new novel, I'm always flailing about.
There's a lot of a lot of self loathing and
(09:40):
just I can't do this. And sometimes even when you
sit down to write a book in the beginning, I
feel almost silly. You know, what are you doing here?
Making up a story that feels foolish. So the point
of the egg timer is just to say I will
write and for the next until that last grain of
set and falls through, and I won't think about it.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
I will have no.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
You know, what's what's the word critical? I can't think
of the word. But I done self talk, just the
self talk, just to I can't think I'm trying to say,
but that it's just just right and it doesn't matter
if it's bad, if it's good, it doesn't matter. You
(10:24):
just must write for the next and it's thirty minutes,
and that often does finally gets you get you going.
So often the first few lines are this is stupid,
this is you know, just what ever anything? And then
finally it's always that losing your sense of self where
that you just find and you know, athletes talk about it,
(10:46):
getting in the zone and meditators talk about it, and
it's and that I think it's just called flow when
you finally achieve that, which is the most glorious.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Feeling of aught, which is basically why I write.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
When you look up from the computer and you sort
of blink because you've been lost in that world.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Have you found any tricks to get yourself in to
flow more quickly or more predictably.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
No only to just to no I want them, no
only just to write the thing I do. I'm not
a planner, so I don't know what's going to happen
with my books. So that means it's a really fun
way to write, because I sit down at my desk
(11:38):
each day and think, I wonder what's going to happen today.
But it's also a scary, scary way to write, because
I sit down and think, I hope something happens today.
So the thing I do is I often edit a
little bit of what I've done.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
The day before because it's too.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Scary to just start write something new. I have to
trick myself into it. So if I'm just fixing up
a couple of sentences of what I've written the day before,
then I can sort of side all my way into
the story.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
So for you, how does the plot or the structure
of a book emerge? Because something I find about all
of your books is that they've got such intricate and
gripping plots, but also such well drawn out characters. And
I'm so surprised that for hear you talk about how
(12:34):
you sit down at the beginning, and you don't quite
know where it's going to go. So how does that evolve?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, so I always just start with a premise, and so,
for example, with Apples Never for this new book, I
knew that I would have the mother disappearing. I knew
that I would have somebody knocking on the door. So
(13:02):
I knew I had had an elderly mother who disappears,
and that the father is obviously the chief suspect her
in her possible murder. And I also had this idea
from an article I've read, even though it's not a
particularly unique literary device to have a stranger appear, but
(13:22):
I'd actually read an article about an elderly couple who
had a young woman knock on their door late at night,
and they let her in and let her stay the night.
So I knew I wanted that, and then I just
but I have no idea at the beginning of the novel.
I don't know where she's disappeared. I don't know how
(13:44):
this young woman who knocks on the door, how she's
going to connect. But at least it's enough to start
my first chapter. And so while I'm writing my first chapter,
I'm just constantly thinking, so maybe it's this, or maybe
it's that, And then I I can see a tiny
way ahead, so I think, well, I know, so she's
staying the night, so what will happen during the night.
(14:07):
And then as I'm writing the characters, I'm getting to
know them. So I always miss my characters from my
previous book when I'm writing a new book. So with
this one, I missed my nine perfect Strangers because I
knew them so well. So in the beginning of a novel,
my characters feel very wooden and cartoonish. But then through
(14:30):
the process of writing them, so I'm trying different things.
Then about a third of the way in, then I think, OK,
now I know this person. They start to move for me.
So there's a slightly magical process that happens where you know,
I might have taken one attribute a real person's attribute. So,
(14:51):
for example, with big little Eyes, with the character of Madeline,
I can always remember that I wrote down perpetually outraged
like so and so, and also shimmery, shimmery, sparkly girl
like so and so and so. I had those two attributes,
and then I started writing her, and then she became Madeline.
(15:12):
He was, in fact nothing like either of those two
real people. But it sometimes helps to have just a
particular attribute. So I would say often will take real
people's attributes, but I've never ever taken an entire personality.
They become their own people. So once I know my characters,
then I can go back to the beginning and think, well,
(15:35):
she wouldn't have said this, or she wouldn't have responded
like this, or I've got particular speech patterns that she
might use, and I can put those in and in
the same way. Once I know what's going to happen,
so I know where she is, I knew worked out
who this woman was who knocked on the door. Then
(15:56):
I can go back and change things. I can put
in my red hairing, I can signpost certain things. I
always have a separate document called things I need to fix,
because I am working it.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Out as I go along.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
So you know, now you know, in this book, I
had the characters Stan. He doesn't own a mobile phone,
which I needed him not to own a mobile phone,
but I didn't know that in the beginning. So in
the beginning I have him lying in bed looking through
his mobile phone. So obviously I'm going to have to
go back and fix that. So I never want to
(16:31):
give the impression that even though I don't plan and
that it just sort of flows from me making perfect
sense somehow along the way. It's just I don't know.
I'm working it out as I go along, and then
I'm going back and rearranging the jigsaw pieces.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
That's fascinating. Now, I want to know with the premise
I mean, and I'm just I'm so intrigued by what
you know in your head when you start writing a
book and just how much evolves. How do you know
that you've got the right premise to begin with.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I think I just know if I'm interested enough that
I keep thinking about it, so because I know I've
had other things where they've been in my head, and
then if it doesn't stay with me, then I let
it go. But if you know, if I'm just going
for a walk and I keep thinking of that idea,
(17:30):
And I did just find that idea interesting of how
would you feel if your mother? So how would I
feel as an adult if my mother had gone missing
and people were saying they believed my father had murdered
my mother? And how And I found that interesting and
also thinking about how would my siblings feel, so that
(17:54):
then gives you each sibling can have a different perspective
and then you can have factions form. So just if
it keeps unfurling in my mind, then I think, I
think I'll.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Go with this.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
But it's terrifying because there and I think, I hope
it's going I hope it's going to work.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
We will be back very soon talking about how Leanne
keeps herself motivated when she's working on a book, the
celebration rituals that she has after typing the words the end,
and also how she manages critical self talk. Now, if
you are interested in consuming more content from me, maybe
(18:40):
follow me on the socials because I post various bits
of hopefully interesting things there. You can find me on
LinkedIn just search for Amantha INBA and on Instagram find
me at Amantha I, and also on Twitter at Amantha. Now,
how do you stay motivated when writing a book because
(19:02):
it's such a big, long process, and particularly you mentioned
that the first third where you're still figuring things out,
can be really kind of daunting. How are you maintaining motivation?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, it's horrible.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
In the beginning, there is a lot of flailing about
trying to trying to make myself work. There are just
little things, little rewards. I do have a notebook where
I write down my word count for each day, so
you know, in the if I'd written with an old
fashioned typewriter, you'd see your page, your pile of pages
(19:40):
growing next to you. But in this case, all I
can do is write down my word count. So I'm
constantly counting words because that's your pile of pages that
you can see growing. So I do tend to this
is sort of embarrassing. I write down little like, you know,
a thousand words today, well, and a little praise for
(20:02):
myself for a little stars you did.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Well, what else are you doing to encourage yourself along
the way.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Well, I think that's I think that's just in that
beginning bit. It really is just seeing the word count.
But of course, now I've got a contract, so now
I've got a deadline, and I'm well behaved, so i'm
you know, I want to I want to please my publishers,
(20:39):
so it is my job. With my first book, I
wrote it as part of a master's degree, and in
a way I often wondered would I have been able
to have written my first book without that structure because
I was just trying to impress the teacher and the
(21:00):
other students. So it was wonderful having other students to
give feedback each each week. So perhaps you could have
achieved the same thing with a writer's group, but I
was you know, that was expensive, that that degree, so
I was paying money for it, and so it made
(21:20):
it feel like I want to I want to please
the teacher, I want to show off to the other students.
So that kept me going to get me through. But
now now it's the contract that does it. But yeah,
it's hard because it's a funny job in the you know,
you could I could say tomorrow I will do nothing
and that will make no difference, so I won't get
(21:42):
into trouble for that and the next day and the
next day. But there's a certain number of days where
you better, you know, get onto it because otherwise you'll
you'll miss your deadline.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, how about when you finish your book? Do you
have any rituals to celebrate or mark the end of
a book?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Only that I go to a particular restaurant which I'm
not allowed to go to at the moment with Sydney
in lockdown and have a particular cocktail or two. And yeah,
that's just it's really just that dinner. It's the best,
it is the best feeling. And I always write the
(22:25):
words the end when I finished, even though the words
the end don't actually appear in a novel. I like
writing the end, and I never I know some authors,
do you know they do different drafts, whereas I'm redrafting
(22:45):
as I go. So therefore I often might hold off
writing that last paragraph or that last scene because I
really want to be able to say the end once
I've written it. I don't, you know, my things I
need to fix document, I don't I want all that done.
So yeah, so it's a bit. It's just allowing me
(23:11):
that thrill, the thrill of goosebumps when you write the end.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Love that now, I imagine with every book that you write,
and just the huge success that they've all had, that
sense of pressure when you start the next piece of
work that you're going to create, like must I don't
know if that's cumulative, but I want to know what's like,
how do you manage that pressure?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Well, I guess I just have to put it all aside.
With this book, I had a little bit I asked
for extra time. So normally I have a book out
every two years, and with this book, it's been three years.
And I did love that because I felt I felt
(24:01):
a sense of freedom in that. I was thinking, you
know my terror that I described, I hope it's going
to work this time. I was thinking, work, it doesn't work,
It's okay, I've got time. I can throw it all away,
and eventually it just disappears because then the story takes over.
So then I'm interested enough in my characters and I'm
(24:22):
having fun with it. So it's just getting through those
first early months and knowing the good bits coming where
I'll just be in with them, and just looking forward
to spending the day with those characters.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yeah, and it sounds like managing that self talk is
just so critical.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Oh, it really is.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
What strategies have you found to help with that, either
that you use on your own or maybe that your
husband or friends help with.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Oh, nothing, nothing particularly innovative. I guess the fact that
I've done it. I've done it before, and this is
what always happens. It's it's like the process of doing
a spin class. So when you do it. Anytime I
(25:15):
do a spin class, I can hardly bear those.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
First few songs.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
You know, you know, you're puffing and you're panting, and
just thinks, oh this is this is just horrible. And
then somehow something happens and you warm up, I guess,
and you're in doorphins go and I just think, you
know it will come. It's just you've just got a
puffy way through. So maybe that's all. It's just telling
(25:42):
myself it will it will come, and doing lots of
those those little, those sappy little messages I write to myself.
You might talk to talk to friends who you say
you can do it, but no, you just got to
power your way through.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I want to talk about the process for seeing your
books made into TV shows, and I'd love to know
with big little lies, which I imagine a lot of people
have seen. I personally loved it, loved the book, love
the show. How involved you in that process? What did
(26:22):
that look like behind the scenes.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Well?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I wasn't involved in a hands on way at all.
So I was asked if I wanted to write the screenplay.
But as I said, for me that one of the
biggest pleasures of writing is not knowing what's going to happen.
So to me, the thought of rewriting my own book
(26:49):
for another medium. Actually, it just makes me want to
cry with boredom. I just can think of nothing worse.
So I was never interested in And I also always
have believed that adaptations should not be too faithful to
the source material, that there are some changes that should
(27:12):
be made to suit film or television. And I know
that if I was doing it then I would hold
on to tightly, so I was very happy to just
hand it over. And of course, when I heard that
David E. Kelly was writing the screenplay for Big Little Eyes,
(27:32):
I was thrilled and knew I was in safe hands.
So I was just a very interested bystander. And I
do think I was very lucky because I don't think
every author has that experience in that they kept me,
They kept me involved without me actually having to do anything,
but I always felt part of it. So they were
(27:55):
just lovely to me. And I had the fun of
visiting the set and you know, texting me photos from
the set, and I got to be there on the
night that they were filming the Big School Trivia night,
so that was an amazing night to be there. So
(28:16):
just to see the process, the whole the whole thing,
from catering to the set design to the costumes.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
I just I just loved it.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I imagine that it must be this sort of strange
balancing act, like when you're a writer, but a really
successful one who part of your job is being on
the book tour, the pr circuit talking about your work
after you've gone through quite a solitary process creating it,
and it's very clear that you're much more comfortable in
(28:49):
the writing side of things. How how do you manage
your energy? I guess for when you're in the part
of the process that you're in now, which is talking
about your work.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Well, yeah, it's hard. Did my energy just drop? Did
you feel No?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
I did it. I did it.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
But having read a lot.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Of interviews with you, I know that that's the thing
for you, like that you know this is not your
favorite part of the process.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
I know I should stop saying that. And the fact is,
which has really really been clarified by the pandemic, is
that I do love meeting readers. So I miss the
book tours because I do love that part of my job,
(29:35):
meeting people and hearing readers say, you know, your book
got me through a difficult time or you know, things
that they related to in the book, whether it was
about infertility or domestic violence. Sold have had some really
emotional conversations in the signing line. So I do find
(29:56):
that actually I didn't realize how much I would miss that,
which I have this time, but this side of it,
so I enjoy talking to you. It's the aftermath where
I can go into a spiral of anxiety thinking, oh,
why did you say that? Or I shouldn't have said this,
(30:18):
or you know, replaying everything. It's just an agony of
self consciousness. I feel like when I grow up, I'll
get over that. I'm not sure when I'm going to
grow when I'm sixty.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
How do you get through that then? Because that must
be tiring, like, you know, going, oh God, did I
say that? What did I say?
Speaker 2 (30:42):
You know?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Did I sound okay?
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Yes? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I just have to I don't know. I don't Sometimes
I think, oh, I'm good, I can do this now,
I'm good at this, But then you forget because you
go back into an entirely different way of working, which
is where you're sitting at your at your desk and
you know, talking to friends and family. I sometimes think
(31:08):
it's not good when I get to when I've been
doing too many events, and then I think, oh, no,
you're starting to like this. You're actually starting to like
the sound of your own voice. Look at you and
so there, so that's not good either. I do get
(31:29):
smoother towards the end I'm watching others. I always remember
watching being on the Red Carpet with Nicole and she
was asked, you know, all those cameras are flashing, and
somebody said to her, A journalist said to her something like,
I'll describe describe the series in just a couple of lines.
(31:53):
And I thought to myself, Oh, my goodness, how she
How is she going to do that? Because I think
of every interviewers question as if it's a test and
that I must answer correctly and accurately. And Nicole said, oh,
I'm not going to do that. Watch the series. She said,
it's impossible, and you just moved on. And it was
(32:15):
such a revelation to me that actually, I'm allowed to
You can say no, I can't do that. It's not
a it's not a test.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Love that now.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I mean, you've worked with some incredibly amazing people and
women like Nicole and like Reese Witherspoon would have been
some of the best pieces of advice or things that
they've taught you.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
I don't know that.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I don't think they've given me advice as such, but
things I've learned. Just as I said, by watching them
deal with the media, I have been inspired by their
past and their enthusiasm. It wasn't what I expected. I thought.
(33:06):
I thought that'd be perhaps more cynical or jaded about
the business, but they weren't at all. They still love
what they do, They still care very much about what
they do, and I was really it sounds silly that
I didn't expect them to care to care as much
(33:27):
as I do. I think I thought that'd be cooler
and colder, especially when it came to me, and perhaps
more dismissive with me. But in fact, they're just lovely
and warm and welcoming and cared very much about their work.
So that was the main thing that I've been inspired by.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Now I'm curious about reviews, and one of the things
about putting creative work in the public is that you
get reviews, and some are amazing and some are not.
What's your process for I guess, like reading reviews. Do
you read reviews and how do you deal with negative ones?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Well? I did, I did, used to read all my reviews.
And apparently I said that in an interview because somebody
put that she quoted my strange hearing my own self
say that. Apparently I said I read all my reviews,
and I no longer.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
The fact is I no longer do that. That was
my younger self.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
So I do not look at reader reviews because of
that tendency to you know, you can see ten wonderful reviews,
but it's only the you know, the one negative review
will be the one that gets stuck in your head.
And those voices can get terribly stuck in your head
(34:55):
and you take them, you know, just one person. I'm
trying to think there was one example of something where
I realized I was doing it to please that one person.
I can't think now, but yeah, and then you're ignoring
all the positive comments. So, for example, I know that
(35:21):
sometimes people get disappointed because my books. Sometimes I think
a're marketed too much as thrillers, and I don't think
they're they're thrilling enough to be thrillers. So if you
if you love a thriller, then you might come to
my book and think and become impatient and think, you know,
I get a move on because I'm going too much
(35:42):
into my character's backstories or whatever. But if I listen
too much to that, then the readers who do love
that side of it, then you know that, then I
wouldn't be giving them what they enjoy. So I just
have to write the way of I've always written. But yes,
certain certain reviews. So for example, I can remember reading
(36:08):
one read review many many years ago, and she said,
she's just trying to sound Australian. She's got the characters.
She said, I know somebody who lives in that area
and nobody. They don't call each other mate. And so
(36:29):
now all these years later, whenever I hear anybody saying
oh thanks mate, or whatever, I think to myself, I
have this resemful See see, of course they do. It's
so ridiculous. What does it matter that this one person
I can't get her out of my head? Wow?
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Fair enough. Now, I mentioned to you before we started
recording that I'm about a third of the way through
Apple's Never Fall, and when I'm interviewing someone that has
written their latest book, I'll always have finished it before
the interview, but I said to you, like, I mean,
I've been so looking forward to your next book to
come out because I've read all of your books and
(37:13):
I love them, and it's like, I just love the
process of savoring fiction and that's what I'm doing. But
I must say I'm loving it so far. So for
people that are keen to get their hands on Apple's
never before or consume anything that you have put into
the world. What is the best way for people to
do that?
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Oh, just wherever you buy books, a local bookshop that
you support, that's wonderful. But of course you can also
buy books online. My books are on Audible, my books
are on you can read on your kindles. So however
you buy your books. And my audio narrator is Caroline Lee,
(37:58):
who I know people love, so I would like to
thank her because she adds to my reader's enjoyment. So
wherever you find your books, you should hopefully find a
Lean Mariatti book.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Fantastic, amazing. Well, I've just I've loved chatting with you.
I love everything that you put out into the world.
So thank you so much for bringing so much joy
to my life.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Oh, thank you, Amantha. Thank you. That's a lovely comic.
Thank you so much. I've enjoyed talking to you too,
I promise I really have.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Oh good, that makes me feel good. Thank you so
much for listening. I hope you found some inspiration in
some of Leanne's methods for how she approaches her work.
And if you are not a subscriber or follower of
How I Work, now might be the time to hit
(38:50):
that button wherever you listen to your podcast, because next
week we'll be continuing this theme of wellness at work,
which I've been at during the month of October, and
I will be talking to the ex CEO of Swiss Wellness,
radex Sally, about how he tested his DNA and how
(39:11):
that really changed his behavior. How I Work is produced
by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. The
producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you
to Martin Nimba, who did the audio mix and makes
everything sound better than it would have otherwise. See you
next time.
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