November 22, 2024 • 30 mins
Welcome to In Sacred Spaces, a three-episode series in which we visit spaces around New
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Episode Transcript
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Colby King (00:00):
[Music starts.] Welcome to In Sacred Spaces, a
(00:07):
three episode podcast series inwhich we visit spaces around New
York City that are sacred tospecific communities. These
include historic Black churchesin Harlem as well as the Chelsea
Piers, a gathering place formembers of the ballroom scene.
There are many kinds of Blackchurches in the United States,
with hundreds of years ofhistory. Ballroom is community
of mostly queer and transperformers from Black and Latinx
(00:29):
backgrounds, originating inHarlem
Aya Labanieh (00:34):
Join us as we walk around these sacred spaces with
the people who love them. Wediscuss their personal journeys
with spirituality and how thespaces they've chosen to inhabit
connect to longer histories ofcivil rights, women's equality
and queer liberation.
Milan Terlunen (00:56):
We hope these conversations will connect with
your own experiences, whetheryou identify as LGBTQ+, as a
Christian, or as part of anyother religious or spiritual
community - or none at all. Ifyou can, we encourage you to
listen to this podcast whilewalking around a place that is
sacred to you.
Colby King (01:19):
Our podcast team includes people with diverse
religious backgrounds and arange of racial, sexual and
gender identities. You can findout more about the team and the
project at our website: insacredspacespodcast.com (01:27):
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Milan Terlunen (01:35):
We hope these episodes will inspire you to
reflect on your own uniquerelationship to spiritual
experience. Throughout eachepisode, we've included musical
interludes composed by StoneButler that give you some
private moments to meditate onwhat you've heard.
Colby King (01:58):
For this episode, we're at St James Presbyterian
Church, and talking with PastorReverend Derrick McQueen.
Derrick explains how spiritualgrace can give oppressed people
a sense of their own sacredvalue. We begin the conversation
outside the church on StNicholas Avenue, a busy main
road running through Harlem, NewYork. We're looking up at an
(02:19):
elegant building with bright reddoors, arched stained-glass
windows and two Gothic-styletowers. There's a constant
stream of traffic rushing by aswe talk. Don't worry, it'll
sound a lot better once we'reinside! [Music ends.]
Derrick McQueen (02:37):
It actually was a church that started downtown.
It actually started downtown in1895, St James, the congregation
actually did. And it startedbecause it wanted to have
another black congregation inNew York City, because the other
one, Shiloh, had just closeddown, and that was the original
one, that was meant forabolition and the freeing of
(02:58):
slaves and the resettling ofblack people in the north. So
when that closed in 1893 peoplefought for another black church,
and here we are at St James. Butwe bought the buildings, which
is incredible for an AfricanAmerican congregation. To
outright buy the building andthe property meant a great deal
(03:18):
in 1927.
Milan Terlunen (03:20):
Yeah. So shall we go in?
Derrick McQueen (03:23):
We can go in.
Milan Terlunen (03:24):
All right.
Aya Labanieh (03:28):
[Music starts.] As we mentioned in the intro, this
podcast features musicalinterludes, And here's the first
one.
Colby King (04:02):
We're now inside the church. We're in a small room
with glowing stained glasswindows on one side and a
doorway into the main churchspace on the other. [Music
ends.]
Milan Terlunen (04:18):
So, I mean you said outside that, you know,
the, sort of, the origins ofthis church, and Shiloh that
came before it, were inabolition, and then also this
pastor talking about, you know,civil rights and race. So is
that, just like a reallyfundamental part of the history
of Saint James?
Derrick McQueen (04:38):
I'll tell you, I've wrapped it into my message
as pastor here. St James hasalways been about liberation.
Abolition is about liberation.Civil rights is about
liberation. And our goal now isto figure out: where do people
need to be liberated? LGBTQIApersons, this is another one of
the frontiers where St James isactually fighting for the
(05:01):
liberation of people, becausethat's really important to
understand (05:03):
that the freedom of everyone is important. You know,
I'm not going to quote King, butI will say that I do agree that
if we're not free, nobody'sfree. If you're not free, I'm
not free. So the liberationaspect of it and building
community among people who needto be healed from the hurt and
the oppression of beingoppressed is what we're all
about.
Milan Terlunen (05:25):
And have been since the beginning.
Derrick McQueen (05:27):
It's what we strive for, right?
Colby King (05:51):
[Music starts.] Now we've entered the main church
space and are walking past thewooden benches that every Sunday
are filled with members of thecongregation. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (06:21):
I sort of have questions that I want to ask
going in two directions. Maybejust first, could you say a
little bit more about ShilohChurch? Just to give us that
real, like, sort of, originstory?
Derrick McQueen (06:36):
Shiloh Presbyterian Church was founded
in 1822, by Samuel Cornish. AndSamuel Cornish is an
abolitionist writer, newspaperwriter. He wrote about freeing
slavery and so on and so forth.And when he got to New York, he
founded this church, not just tobe a church for African
(06:56):
Americans or the coloredPresbyterian Church, but to be a
home for runaway slaves. Okay,runaway slaves coming not into,
you know, a white person's homejust to sort of be on the
Underground Railroad, but ifthey wanted to settle, they
could settle in community.
Milan Terlunen (07:14):
And why did that church end up getting shut down?
Or what happened?
Derrick McQueen (07:18):
You know, as I look through the history
records, I believe it's morebecause slavery ended. There
were some churches that neverwanted an abolitionist church to
begin - to begin with. And thePresbytery of New York City, the
larger body of churches in NewYork City...
Milan Terlunen (07:33):
So some Presbyterians in New York were
for slavery?
Derrick McQueen (07:38):
They were slave holders.
Milan Terlunen (07:40):
Okay, so they were definitely for...
Derrick McQueen (07:44):
Yeah, yeah. We're doing some research and
finding out that that's why.It's so powerful, this story,
because it's not just that thewhite church allowed a Black
church to form. People foughtand fought for the right to,
number one, be a church, be aPresbyterian Church in a space
where the rich people were theslave owners, and they still
(08:06):
started an abolitionist ministryin the city of New York in 1822.
Colby King (08:56):
[Music starts.] As we look towards the front of the
church, we see a grand piano tothe left, a gold organ towering
above and soft pink walls thatframe the raised stage. [Music
ends.]
Milan Terlunen (09:15):
The other question I wanted to ask was
just more about, like, yourpersonal history with this
church. Like, how long have youbeen coming here? What was your
journey to becoming pastor here?
Derrick McQueen (09:26):
I became a member in 2006. I was at Union
Theological Seminary as astudent, but I walked in the
door that we came in, and Ilooked into the sanctuary and
said, "This is home".
Milan Terlunen (09:38):
Yeah...
Derrick McQueen (09:39):
And I've never left. I went to church the next
day. The next Sunday, I wassinging in the choir. I joined,
and then I became part of theleadership, and I was also going
through the ordination process.So I realized that I wanted to
be a minister, and I'm, and I'mactually the first out African
American Presbyterian malepastor here in Harlem and...
Milan Terlunen (10:00):
And let's list that
Derrick McQueen (10:02):
First out, male, African American pastor of
an historic church in Harlem.First out pastor of an historic
church in Harlem, andPresbyterian, yeah.
Milan Terlunen (10:13):
Yeah. That's historic!
Derrick McQueen (10:17):
Yeah, keep it quiet! But yeah, it's a...
they're on record, there havebeen a lot of firsts that have
happened here. You know, at thischurch, it was the first African
American Presbyterian Church,the only African American
Presbyterian Church in New YorkCity to become open and
affirming and to do the processto make that happen.
Milan Terlunen (10:34):
Open and affirming of...?
Derrick McQueen (10:35):
Of LGBTQIA persons. And that was in 2005
before I came.
Milan Terlunen (10:42):
Okay, yeah, so it was already on this journey
of, I think, as you were saying,like liberation, and then...
Derrick McQueen (10:50):
And not denigrating to people that that
gave service here. You know,this is an arts focused church
Harlem School of the Artsstarted in our basement, to be
next door. And you know, we knowthat there's a large LGBTQIA
contingent in the arts, and manyof them sang here. Many of them
(11:10):
do sing here. We had people fromthe Met singing here when I was
here, yeah, it's just you cannothave people doing things for you
and not love them and acceptthem and hold them. It's usury.
Milan Terlunen (11:23):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (11:24):
So yeah...
Milan Terlunen (11:25):
Yeah. That sounds like, yeah. I mean, you
can do those things, but youshouldn't.
Derrick McQueen (11:53):
Well, people do do those things, right. We've
made a decision not to.
Milan Terlunen (12:00):
Yeah.
Colby King (12:01):
[Music starts.] Our voices echo in the sanctuary
space as light streams from thestained glass in a rainbow of
colors. It's raining heavilyoutside, but from in here you
can't tell. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (12:21):
Um, should we, sort of, walk towards the front?
And I want to ask a bit aboutmore, sort of, the theology of
this church, and, yeah, justkind of, you know, we've talked
a lot about, sort of, thehistory, the space, the
building, but also, yeah, I'mcurious about the spiritual
(12:41):
side, like, what are thedefining features here?
Derrick McQueen (12:45):
One of the wonderful things about Reformed
theology, which is part of thereason why I'm a Presbyterian -
because I grew up in anotherdenomination that focused on
salvation and confession andbaptism, and I grew up Baptist.
And I'm not denigrating thatdenomination. But it's saying
when I realized that therewas... I didn't have to look at
(13:06):
myself as as flawed, broken andan abomination in order to be
loved by God. I never felt thatanyway, but talking in the
larger scale... But when youstudy Reformed theology and you
hear the understanding of grace.Grace is that notion that what
happened with Jesus on thatthird day, that that moment
(13:28):
symbolizes that we have been...that our sins have been cleaned,
and everything is clear, theslate is clear, and that through
God's mercy, that grace coversus and helps us to become whole
and better people. And there'snothing that we have to do for
it. That's the caveat. That'sthe caveat about grace. God's
(13:49):
like, it's your gift.
Milan Terlunen (13:50):
So this is to do with with Jesus and His
crucifixion, and... Becausethere's that saying of like, "He
died for our sins", right?
Derrick McQueen (13:57):
Right...
Milan Terlunen (13:58):
This is what you're talking about?
Derrick McQueen (13:59):
Right, that's a whole other... You know, there's
a whole other notion of Jesusbeing our substitute, which can
be hurtful for some people: saying that I still don't want (14:06):
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that on my conscience, right?It's like someone else suffering
because I did something bad,right? And for African American
women, especially, how oftenhave African American women been
asked to substitute, you know,be substitute mothers for their
slave masters? You know, besubstitute this and that for
(14:29):
other persons. And womanism,there's a theology of Black
women who talk in theirunderstanding of God. They
articulate that really, reallybeautifully. But this notion of
grace (14:40):
that there's nothing that we can do. God, God, God's grace
is so powerful, so rich and sovaluable, that there's nothing
that we can do to even thinkabout earning it. And what joy
that brings to us.
Milan Terlunen (15:31):
Yeah.
Colby King (15:31):
[Music starts.] We turn to look up at the balcony.
The choir used to sing there,but the structure can no longer
support their weight. Worshipingin a historic building has its
limitations. [Music ends.]
Derrick McQueen (15:52):
So we've been walking through the space. Can
you hear the difference in thesound quality?
Milan Terlunen (15:58):
I can hear it in your voice, like there's much
more of an echo here.
Derrick McQueen (16:00):
That's the architecture, okay? So when we
were in the back, right...
Milan Terlunen (16:04):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (16:04):
... and we moved through the space...
... and I'm sure that you can hear, even in
Milan Terlunen (16:06):
Yeah.
the recording, that our voiceswill have changed. And when I
filled up this space more,because now we're down in the
front of the church...
Yeah, it resonates.
Derrick McQueen (16:17):
Isn't it resonating much more? It's
really powerful, isn't it?
Milan Terlunen (16:20):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (16:21):
I love this space for that very reason.
Milan Terlunen (16:25):
So, yeah, so, so I wanted to ask a bit more about
what you're saying about graceand the, sort of, you know, at
least for you and for thischurch, like it's, it's not
something that is, sort of,Jesus substituting for us, but
(16:45):
that it's something that'svery... it's like a gift that
keeps on giving, and that...
Derrick McQueen (16:50):
You, you put it absolutely beautifully.
Milan Terlunen (16:52):
I put it in a very cliched way, but...
Derrick McQueen (16:53):
But the whole idea about reacting to grace
that is given freely (16:57):
it shifts your mindset and your spirit, so
that you start moving in anotherdirection, and you start doing
things differently. You startworking towards towards higher
goals and more ethereal thingsfor your heart and your spirit,
in a way, just because of grace.And it's not, it's not anything
(17:20):
like hocus pocus
Milan Terlunen (17:21):
Yeah...
Derrick McQueen (17:22):
It's just sort of like you feel a little bit
better, right? So you're alittle bit nicer. [Laughs]
Milan Terlunen (17:26):
I mean, it sounds like... So like, in the,
like, everyday meaning of theword "grace", I think of it as
being about, sort of, you know,like, elegant, skillful
movements, right? Or sort of,you know... But what you're
describing is almost like a sortof spiritual, psychological
equivalent to that, where you'rethinking more, you know,
gracefully, that you're sort of,you know, moving through the
(17:50):
world and interacting withpeople...
Derrick McQueen (17:52):
You're moving Grace-filled.
Milan Terlunen (17:54):
Grace-filled.
Derrick McQueen (17:55):
Instead of graceful, you're Grace-filled,
Grace f-i-l-l-e-d. And how thatplays out, this is what's really
important, is that it makes yousee the importance of fighting
for the end of slavery, offighting for civil rights, of
fighting for LGBTQIA rights. Itmakes you see that all of us are
(18:18):
worthy of this great gift, andthis great gift is so good you
want everybody else to have it.
Milan Terlunen (18:23):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (18:24):
If, if God, if God has imbued this beauty and,
and wonder in me, and I knowthat it exists in you, how can I
watch your child starve?
Milan Terlunen (18:34):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (18:35):
So it spurs you. Grace spurs you on to do
things. It's not, it's not evenquiet. It really moves you. It
can be a revolutionary forcewhen you recognize that
everybody is deserving of it.[Laughs]
Milan Terlunen (19:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Colby King (19:32):
[Music starts.] The old beams and peeling paint of
the vaulted ceiling testify tothe generations of people who
have made this place theirspiritual home. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (19:51):
Do you have any memories of you know, being in
this space and feeling filledwith grace in that way, like
whether it was you experiencingit or other people in this
space?
Derrick McQueen (20:01):
There's a song called "Blessed assurance, Jesus
is mine".
Milan Terlunen (20:05):
Yeah?
Derrick McQueen (20:05):
Everybody loves it. We sing it, and I do all
these riffs on it, you know,because I love the song as well.
And there's a little boy, whenhe was about four years old, his
mother sent me a Facebookmessage of him getting ready for
bed one night, putting on hispajamas, and he's singing this
song at the top of his lungs.And she's like, "What is he
(20:25):
singing?" And he was imitatingme
Milan Terlunen (20:28):
Oh yeah?
Derrick McQueen (20:29):
Here in the front of the church, like
singing and riffing away. Andthen we had a service where we
ended, we ended the service withthat song. He was way over there
in the sanctuary, like about 12rows back in the corner, way
across from the church, and hestood up on the bench and
started singing at the top ofhis lungs every single word to
(20:51):
the song. And this time he wasabout four and a half, and I
just lost it, because he hadthis sense of being about this
joy, about singing this songabout his assurance, because we
had had a conversation about it.That was Grace. It let people
know the power of love, thepower of joy, the power of what
(21:12):
it means to be community withone another.
Milan Terlunen (21:15):
Yeah, and just that it's not just this kind of
gentle, like warm feelinginside, but that it can have
this real power and sort of movepeople around you. Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (21:47):
Yeah.
Colby King (21:48):
[Music starts.] We step up onto the raised stage at
the front, and Derrick leans onhis podium, smiling. We imagine
this is what he looks like whenhe's delivering his weekly
sermons. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (22:13):
I wanted to also ask a bit more about the word
sin, which you used earlier, andwhich I feel is kind of we've
been talking about this in areally kind of like positive,
empowering way. But I'm justcurious what role sin plays in
relation to grace.
I define sin in a very uniqueway for my ministry. For me, sin
(22:39):
are the... sin is the thingsthat we... are the things that
we do that separate us from theDivine. I don't...
Wait I wanna repeat (22:46):
things that we do that separate us from the
Divine. So, yeah, what, what doyou mean by that?
Derrick McQueen (22:53):
Adam and Eve. We hear that the sin was the
fact that they disobeyed God andthey ate the apple and listen to
the... God's feelings weren'thurt because of the apple. God's
feelings were hurt because theyhid from him. They hid from God.
Milan Terlunen (23:08):
So this is that kind of classic image of them
covering themselves withleaves...
Derrick McQueen (23:11):
It's not even, it's not even hiding and
covering their bodies. It's noteven about body.
Milan Terlunen (23:16):
Yeah...
Derrick McQueen (23:16):
God says, Where are you Adam, where are you Eve?
Milan Terlunen (23:20):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (23:20):
And they are hiding from God, okay? And that
is what breaks God's heart. Andwe do things that keep us away
from from wanting to be near thegood things. And that, to me, is
sin, okay? So when Grace saysyou don't have to separate
yourself from God, because Godalready knows. God is, God is
(23:45):
just looking for you.
Milan Terlunen (23:47):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (23:47):
God's just looking for you. You don't have
to hide.
Milan Terlunen (23:50):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (23:50):
And we do things and the things that we
end up doing... And I rememberwhen a professor said this to me
in a class in seminary, and Iwas literally in class, and I
balled up and I cried. Becauseit was such freedom!
Milan Terlunen (24:05):
Yeah, this way of understanding.
Derrick McQueen (24:08):
You know, even though I'm, I'm an out gay
pastor, right? Even thoughthat's that. There's always that
notion in the back of your head,like, is this, am I still a, am
I still a sin? Not in what I do,am I a sin? Because that's the
language, right? And when Irealized that I'm not hiding
from God and that God loves me,it brought me to tears.
Milan Terlunen (24:30):
Yeah, yeah, that is powerful, because
I think a lot of queer peoplewho have interacted with
religions, you know one of thethings is being told, like, you
know, who you are, or like, whatyou do, is a sin.
Derrick McQueen (24:46):
"An abomination to God", is the language.
Milan Terlunen (24:50):
But the way that you're understanding sin just
completely cuts through that.And it's like, if... It's
whether you are separatingyourself from the Divine or
accepting that you are connectedto it.
Derrick McQueen (25:25):
Yeah.
Colby King (25:25):
[Music starts.] We approach the piano and admire
how it gleams. If you didn'tknow better, you'd think it was
(25:46):
brand new. [Music ends.]
Derrick McQueen (25:53):
This nine-foot baby, foot grand piano that you
see here was a gift to DorothyMaynor, the woman who started
the Harlem School of the Arts,who was an opera singer, a
concert singer, so you know,music was really important to
Milan Terlunen (26:03):
Yeah.
her. This... We take care ofthis piano very well.
Derrick McQueen (26:09):
Yeah, it's about 70 years old now, but it
is just something about hearingthe music from this piano and
singing with it. There'ssomething about it that lets you
know that there is this graceand that that flows through this
space, which is why I mentionedthe sound before.
Milan Terlunen (26:29):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (26:29):
Music enables you to say without saying, and
you feel it. You just feel itbecause of the music. And
there's so much great music inthe church. It's... Whether it's
classical, whether it's jazz,whether it's blues or gospel,
it's all, it's all an effectiveway to bring Grace alive as a
(26:50):
spirit. It's almost like aspirit that goes through people.
Milan Terlunen (26:54):
Yeah. Um... I'm curious to know whether you've
experienced some of that feelingof grace through music outside
of a church, like in othercontexts that are not religious.
And thinking about like, youknow, listeners who maybe don't
attend church, but they have arelationship with music, you
(27:17):
know that this is resonatingwith them, but it might not be
religion.
Derrick McQueen (27:20):
You remember the story I told you when we
first met about the way musicmoves people in their spirit.
And on one of my birthdays, myfriends took me out to a club,
and we went to this gay club inthe 30s, and it was a jam packed
night, and around one o'clock inthe morning the music shifted,
and all of a sudden, everybodywas up on the dance floor. We
(27:42):
went out, we started dancing.And I was like, why am I singing
Milan Terlunen (27:43):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (27:43):
And we were... it was all gospel music. And
the lyrics to these songs?
people were on the floor dancingand singing because it was their
church.
Milan Terlunen (27:57):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (27:57):
It was a place where they felt comfortable,
where they felt grace. And ifthey felt that they couldn't be
in church on Sunday morning,they had it from one to three
o'clock before the drag starcame. [Laughs]
Milan Terlunen (28:09):
So, yeah, a gay club as a place where you can,
you can be filled with grace.
Derrick McQueen (28:16):
That's like the ballroom community is the same
thing. Yeah, it's the same thingin the ballroom, the
quote-unquote "ballroom" scenein the 70s and the 80s, it still
goes on, but it was anopportunity for, for queer folk,
whether they were, whether theywanted to be drag, wanted to be
trans, wanted to be drag, but itwas all contests of different
dancing and different, differentways of performing, and they had
(28:38):
different categories ofdifferent, different ways to be
queer. The ball community wasall about that: finding grace,
finding power, finding presence,finding identity, finding mercy.
You know, all the things thatchurch was supposed to do for
the queer community washappening in the ballroom.
Colby King (28:56):
[Music starts.] We're almost at the end of the
episode, but it's not the end ofthe conversation. We'll now
leave you with a little moreMusic to reflect on what you've
(29:46):
heard.
Milan Terlunen (29:46):
We'd love to hear your response to this
episode. If you have thoughts orstories to share, please send an
email or, even better, a voicenote to
team@insacredspacespodcast.com
Colby King (30:04):
In Sacred Spaces was produced by Olivia Branscum,
Colby King (that's me), AyaLabanieh and Milan Terlunen,
with musical compositions byStone Butler and technical
support from Evan Li and AnaMaria Rodriguez.
Aya Labanieh (30:18):
Thanks to our speakers and to the church and
ballroom communities forinviting us into their spaces.
Thanks also to MarÃa GonzálezPendás and Chris Chang for their
mentorship, and to Humanities NYand Columbia's Heyman Center for
the Humanities for theirsupport.
Milan Terlunen (30:35):
And most of all, thank you for listening. [Music
ends.]
[Music starts.] Welcome to In Sacred Spaces, a
(00:07):
three episode podcast series inwhich we visit spaces around New
York City that are sacred tospecific communities. These
include historic Black churchesin Harlem as well as the Chelsea
Piers, a gathering place formembers of the ballroom scene.
There are many kinds of Blackchurches in the United States,
with hundreds of years ofhistory. Ballroom is community
of mostly queer and transperformers from Black and Latinx
(00:29):
backgrounds, originating inHarlem
Aya Labanieh (00:34):
Join us as we walk around these sacred spaces with
the people who love them. Wediscuss their personal journeys
with spirituality and how thespaces they've chosen to inhabit
connect to longer histories ofcivil rights, women's equality
and queer liberation.
Milan Terlunen (00:56):
We hope these conversations will connect with
your own experiences, whetheryou identify as LGBTQ+, as a
Christian, or as part of anyother religious or spiritual
community - or none at all. Ifyou can, we encourage you to
listen to this podcast whilewalking around a place that is
sacred to you.
Colby King (01:19):
Our podcast team includes people with diverse
religious backgrounds and arange of racial, sexual and
gender identities. You can findout more about the team and the
project at our website: insacredspacespodcast.com (01:27):
undefined
Milan Terlunen (01:35):
We hope these episodes will inspire you to
reflect on your own uniquerelationship to spiritual
experience. Throughout eachepisode, we've included musical
interludes composed by StoneButler that give you some
private moments to meditate onwhat you've heard.
Colby King (01:58):
For this episode, we're at St James Presbyterian
Church, and talking with PastorReverend Derrick McQueen.
Derrick explains how spiritualgrace can give oppressed people
a sense of their own sacredvalue. We begin the conversation
outside the church on StNicholas Avenue, a busy main
road running through Harlem, NewYork. We're looking up at an
(02:19):
elegant building with bright reddoors, arched stained-glass
windows and two Gothic-styletowers. There's a constant
stream of traffic rushing by aswe talk. Don't worry, it'll
sound a lot better once we'reinside! [Music ends.]
Derrick McQueen (02:37):
It actually was a church that started downtown.
It actually started downtown in1895, St James, the congregation
actually did. And it startedbecause it wanted to have
another black congregation inNew York City, because the other
one, Shiloh, had just closeddown, and that was the original
one, that was meant forabolition and the freeing of
(02:58):
slaves and the resettling ofblack people in the north. So
when that closed in 1893 peoplefought for another black church,
and here we are at St James. Butwe bought the buildings, which
is incredible for an AfricanAmerican congregation. To
outright buy the building andthe property meant a great deal
(03:18):
in 1927.
Milan Terlunen (03:20):
Yeah. So shall we go in?
Derrick McQueen (03:23):
We can go in.
Milan Terlunen (03:24):
All right.
Aya Labanieh (03:28):
[Music starts.] As we mentioned in the intro, this
podcast features musicalinterludes, And here's the first
one.
Colby King (04:02):
We're now inside the church. We're in a small room
with glowing stained glasswindows on one side and a
doorway into the main churchspace on the other. [Music
ends.]
Milan Terlunen (04:18):
So, I mean you said outside that, you know,
the, sort of, the origins ofthis church, and Shiloh that
came before it, were inabolition, and then also this
pastor talking about, you know,civil rights and race. So is
that, just like a reallyfundamental part of the history
of Saint James?
Derrick McQueen (04:38):
I'll tell you, I've wrapped it into my message
as pastor here. St James hasalways been about liberation.
Abolition is about liberation.Civil rights is about
liberation. And our goal now isto figure out: where do people
need to be liberated? LGBTQIApersons, this is another one of
the frontiers where St James isactually fighting for the
(05:01):
liberation of people, becausethat's really important to
understand (05:03):
that the freedom of everyone is important. You know,
I'm not going to quote King, butI will say that I do agree that
if we're not free, nobody'sfree. If you're not free, I'm
not free. So the liberationaspect of it and building
community among people who needto be healed from the hurt and
the oppression of beingoppressed is what we're all
about.
Milan Terlunen (05:25):
And have been since the beginning.
Derrick McQueen (05:27):
It's what we strive for, right?
Colby King (05:51):
[Music starts.] Now we've entered the main church
space and are walking past thewooden benches that every Sunday
are filled with members of thecongregation. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (06:21):
I sort of have questions that I want to ask
going in two directions. Maybejust first, could you say a
little bit more about ShilohChurch? Just to give us that
real, like, sort of, originstory?
Derrick McQueen (06:36):
Shiloh Presbyterian Church was founded
in 1822, by Samuel Cornish. AndSamuel Cornish is an
abolitionist writer, newspaperwriter. He wrote about freeing
slavery and so on and so forth.And when he got to New York, he
founded this church, not just tobe a church for African
(06:56):
Americans or the coloredPresbyterian Church, but to be a
home for runaway slaves. Okay,runaway slaves coming not into,
you know, a white person's homejust to sort of be on the
Underground Railroad, but ifthey wanted to settle, they
could settle in community.
Milan Terlunen (07:14):
And why did that church end up getting shut down?
Or what happened?
Derrick McQueen (07:18):
You know, as I look through the history
records, I believe it's morebecause slavery ended. There
were some churches that neverwanted an abolitionist church to
begin - to begin with. And thePresbytery of New York City, the
larger body of churches in NewYork City...
Milan Terlunen (07:33):
So some Presbyterians in New York were
for slavery?
Derrick McQueen (07:38):
They were slave holders.
Milan Terlunen (07:40):
Okay, so they were definitely for...
Derrick McQueen (07:44):
Yeah, yeah. We're doing some research and
finding out that that's why.It's so powerful, this story,
because it's not just that thewhite church allowed a Black
church to form. People foughtand fought for the right to,
number one, be a church, be aPresbyterian Church in a space
where the rich people were theslave owners, and they still
(08:06):
started an abolitionist ministryin the city of New York in 1822.
Colby King (08:56):
[Music starts.] As we look towards the front of the
church, we see a grand piano tothe left, a gold organ towering
above and soft pink walls thatframe the raised stage. [Music
ends.]
Milan Terlunen (09:15):
The other question I wanted to ask was
just more about, like, yourpersonal history with this
church. Like, how long have youbeen coming here? What was your
journey to becoming pastor here?
Derrick McQueen (09:26):
I became a member in 2006. I was at Union
Theological Seminary as astudent, but I walked in the
door that we came in, and Ilooked into the sanctuary and
said, "This is home".
Milan Terlunen (09:38):
Yeah...
Derrick McQueen (09:39):
And I've never left. I went to church the next
day. The next Sunday, I wassinging in the choir. I joined,
and then I became part of theleadership, and I was also going
through the ordination process.So I realized that I wanted to
be a minister, and I'm, and I'mactually the first out African
American Presbyterian malepastor here in Harlem and...
Milan Terlunen (10:00):
And let's list that
Derrick McQueen (10:02):
First out, male, African American pastor of
an historic church in Harlem.First out pastor of an historic
church in Harlem, andPresbyterian, yeah.
Milan Terlunen (10:13):
Yeah. That's historic!
Derrick McQueen (10:17):
Yeah, keep it quiet! But yeah, it's a...
they're on record, there havebeen a lot of firsts that have
happened here. You know, at thischurch, it was the first African
American Presbyterian Church,the only African American
Presbyterian Church in New YorkCity to become open and
affirming and to do the processto make that happen.
Milan Terlunen (10:34):
Open and affirming of...?
Derrick McQueen (10:35):
Of LGBTQIA persons. And that was in 2005
before I came.
Milan Terlunen (10:42):
Okay, yeah, so it was already on this journey
of, I think, as you were saying,like liberation, and then...
Derrick McQueen (10:50):
And not denigrating to people that that
gave service here. You know,this is an arts focused church
Harlem School of the Artsstarted in our basement, to be
next door. And you know, we knowthat there's a large LGBTQIA
contingent in the arts, and manyof them sang here. Many of them
(11:10):
do sing here. We had people fromthe Met singing here when I was
here, yeah, it's just you cannothave people doing things for you
and not love them and acceptthem and hold them. It's usury.
Milan Terlunen (11:23):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (11:24):
So yeah...
Milan Terlunen (11:25):
Yeah. That sounds like, yeah. I mean, you
can do those things, but youshouldn't.
Derrick McQueen (11:53):
Well, people do do those things, right. We've
made a decision not to.
Milan Terlunen (12:00):
Yeah.
Colby King (12:01):
[Music starts.] Our voices echo in the sanctuary
space as light streams from thestained glass in a rainbow of
colors. It's raining heavilyoutside, but from in here you
can't tell. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (12:21):
Um, should we, sort of, walk towards the front?
And I want to ask a bit aboutmore, sort of, the theology of
this church, and, yeah, justkind of, you know, we've talked
a lot about, sort of, thehistory, the space, the
building, but also, yeah, I'mcurious about the spiritual
(12:41):
side, like, what are thedefining features here?
Derrick McQueen (12:45):
One of the wonderful things about Reformed
theology, which is part of thereason why I'm a Presbyterian -
because I grew up in anotherdenomination that focused on
salvation and confession andbaptism, and I grew up Baptist.
And I'm not denigrating thatdenomination. But it's saying
when I realized that therewas... I didn't have to look at
(13:06):
myself as as flawed, broken andan abomination in order to be
loved by God. I never felt thatanyway, but talking in the
larger scale... But when youstudy Reformed theology and you
hear the understanding of grace.Grace is that notion that what
happened with Jesus on thatthird day, that that moment
(13:28):
symbolizes that we have been...that our sins have been cleaned,
and everything is clear, theslate is clear, and that through
God's mercy, that grace coversus and helps us to become whole
and better people. And there'snothing that we have to do for
it. That's the caveat. That'sthe caveat about grace. God's
(13:49):
like, it's your gift.
Milan Terlunen (13:50):
So this is to do with with Jesus and His
crucifixion, and... Becausethere's that saying of like, "He
died for our sins", right?
Derrick McQueen (13:57):
Right...
Milan Terlunen (13:58):
This is what you're talking about?
Derrick McQueen (13:59):
Right, that's a whole other... You know, there's
a whole other notion of Jesusbeing our substitute, which can
be hurtful for some people: saying that I still don't want (14:06):
undefined
that on my conscience, right?It's like someone else suffering
because I did something bad,right? And for African American
women, especially, how oftenhave African American women been
asked to substitute, you know,be substitute mothers for their
slave masters? You know, besubstitute this and that for
(14:29):
other persons. And womanism,there's a theology of Black
women who talk in theirunderstanding of God. They
articulate that really, reallybeautifully. But this notion of
grace (14:40):
that there's nothing that we can do. God, God, God's grace
is so powerful, so rich and sovaluable, that there's nothing
that we can do to even thinkabout earning it. And what joy
that brings to us.
Milan Terlunen (15:31):
Yeah.
Colby King (15:31):
[Music starts.] We turn to look up at the balcony.
The choir used to sing there,but the structure can no longer
support their weight. Worshipingin a historic building has its
limitations. [Music ends.]
Derrick McQueen (15:52):
So we've been walking through the space. Can
you hear the difference in thesound quality?
Milan Terlunen (15:58):
I can hear it in your voice, like there's much
more of an echo here.
Derrick McQueen (16:00):
That's the architecture, okay? So when we
were in the back, right...
Milan Terlunen (16:04):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (16:04):
... and we moved through the space...
... and I'm sure that you can hear, even in
Milan Terlunen (16:06):
Yeah.
the recording, that our voiceswill have changed. And when I
filled up this space more,because now we're down in the
front of the church...
Yeah, it resonates.
Derrick McQueen (16:17):
Isn't it resonating much more? It's
really powerful, isn't it?
Milan Terlunen (16:20):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (16:21):
I love this space for that very reason.
Milan Terlunen (16:25):
So, yeah, so, so I wanted to ask a bit more about
what you're saying about graceand the, sort of, you know, at
least for you and for thischurch, like it's, it's not
something that is, sort of,Jesus substituting for us, but
(16:45):
that it's something that'svery... it's like a gift that
keeps on giving, and that...
Derrick McQueen (16:50):
You, you put it absolutely beautifully.
Milan Terlunen (16:52):
I put it in a very cliched way, but...
Derrick McQueen (16:53):
But the whole idea about reacting to grace
that is given freely (16:57):
it shifts your mindset and your spirit, so
that you start moving in anotherdirection, and you start doing
things differently. You startworking towards towards higher
goals and more ethereal thingsfor your heart and your spirit,
in a way, just because of grace.And it's not, it's not anything
(17:20):
like hocus pocus
Milan Terlunen (17:21):
Yeah...
Derrick McQueen (17:22):
It's just sort of like you feel a little bit
better, right? So you're alittle bit nicer. [Laughs]
Milan Terlunen (17:26):
I mean, it sounds like... So like, in the,
like, everyday meaning of theword "grace", I think of it as
being about, sort of, you know,like, elegant, skillful
movements, right? Or sort of,you know... But what you're
describing is almost like a sortof spiritual, psychological
equivalent to that, where you'rethinking more, you know,
gracefully, that you're sort of,you know, moving through the
(17:50):
world and interacting withpeople...
Derrick McQueen (17:52):
You're moving Grace-filled.
Milan Terlunen (17:54):
Grace-filled.
Derrick McQueen (17:55):
Instead of graceful, you're Grace-filled,
Grace f-i-l-l-e-d. And how thatplays out, this is what's really
important, is that it makes yousee the importance of fighting
for the end of slavery, offighting for civil rights, of
fighting for LGBTQIA rights. Itmakes you see that all of us are
(18:18):
worthy of this great gift, andthis great gift is so good you
want everybody else to have it.
Milan Terlunen (18:23):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (18:24):
If, if God, if God has imbued this beauty and,
and wonder in me, and I knowthat it exists in you, how can I
watch your child starve?
Milan Terlunen (18:34):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (18:35):
So it spurs you. Grace spurs you on to do
things. It's not, it's not evenquiet. It really moves you. It
can be a revolutionary forcewhen you recognize that
everybody is deserving of it.[Laughs]
Milan Terlunen (19:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Colby King (19:32):
[Music starts.] The old beams and peeling paint of
the vaulted ceiling testify tothe generations of people who
have made this place theirspiritual home. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (19:51):
Do you have any memories of you know, being in
this space and feeling filledwith grace in that way, like
whether it was you experiencingit or other people in this
space?
Derrick McQueen (20:01):
There's a song called "Blessed assurance, Jesus
is mine".
Milan Terlunen (20:05):
Yeah?
Derrick McQueen (20:05):
Everybody loves it. We sing it, and I do all
these riffs on it, you know,because I love the song as well.
And there's a little boy, whenhe was about four years old, his
mother sent me a Facebookmessage of him getting ready for
bed one night, putting on hispajamas, and he's singing this
song at the top of his lungs.And she's like, "What is he
(20:25):
singing?" And he was imitatingme
Milan Terlunen (20:28):
Oh yeah?
Derrick McQueen (20:29):
Here in the front of the church, like
singing and riffing away. Andthen we had a service where we
ended, we ended the service withthat song. He was way over there
in the sanctuary, like about 12rows back in the corner, way
across from the church, and hestood up on the bench and
started singing at the top ofhis lungs every single word to
(20:51):
the song. And this time he wasabout four and a half, and I
just lost it, because he hadthis sense of being about this
joy, about singing this songabout his assurance, because we
had had a conversation about it.That was Grace. It let people
know the power of love, thepower of joy, the power of what
(21:12):
it means to be community withone another.
Milan Terlunen (21:15):
Yeah, and just that it's not just this kind of
gentle, like warm feelinginside, but that it can have
this real power and sort of movepeople around you. Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (21:47):
Yeah.
Colby King (21:48):
[Music starts.] We step up onto the raised stage at
the front, and Derrick leans onhis podium, smiling. We imagine
this is what he looks like whenhe's delivering his weekly
sermons. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (22:13):
I wanted to also ask a bit more about the word
sin, which you used earlier, andwhich I feel is kind of we've
been talking about this in areally kind of like positive,
empowering way. But I'm justcurious what role sin plays in
relation to grace.
I define sin in a very uniqueway for my ministry. For me, sin
(22:39):
are the... sin is the thingsthat we... are the things that
we do that separate us from theDivine. I don't...
Wait I wanna repeat (22:46):
things that we do that separate us from the
Divine. So, yeah, what, what doyou mean by that?
Derrick McQueen (22:53):
Adam and Eve. We hear that the sin was the
fact that they disobeyed God andthey ate the apple and listen to
the... God's feelings weren'thurt because of the apple. God's
feelings were hurt because theyhid from him. They hid from God.
Milan Terlunen (23:08):
So this is that kind of classic image of them
covering themselves withleaves...
Derrick McQueen (23:11):
It's not even, it's not even hiding and
covering their bodies. It's noteven about body.
Milan Terlunen (23:16):
Yeah...
Derrick McQueen (23:16):
God says, Where are you Adam, where are you Eve?
Milan Terlunen (23:20):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (23:20):
And they are hiding from God, okay? And that
is what breaks God's heart. Andwe do things that keep us away
from from wanting to be near thegood things. And that, to me, is
sin, okay? So when Grace saysyou don't have to separate
yourself from God, because Godalready knows. God is, God is
(23:45):
just looking for you.
Milan Terlunen (23:47):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (23:47):
God's just looking for you. You don't have
to hide.
Milan Terlunen (23:50):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (23:50):
And we do things and the things that we
end up doing... And I rememberwhen a professor said this to me
in a class in seminary, and Iwas literally in class, and I
balled up and I cried. Becauseit was such freedom!
Milan Terlunen (24:05):
Yeah, this way of understanding.
Derrick McQueen (24:08):
You know, even though I'm, I'm an out gay
pastor, right? Even thoughthat's that. There's always that
notion in the back of your head,like, is this, am I still a, am
I still a sin? Not in what I do,am I a sin? Because that's the
language, right? And when Irealized that I'm not hiding
from God and that God loves me,it brought me to tears.
Milan Terlunen (24:30):
Yeah, yeah, that is powerful, because
I think a lot of queer peoplewho have interacted with
religions, you know one of thethings is being told, like, you
know, who you are, or like, whatyou do, is a sin.
Derrick McQueen (24:46):
"An abomination to God", is the language.
Milan Terlunen (24:50):
But the way that you're understanding sin just
completely cuts through that.And it's like, if... It's
whether you are separatingyourself from the Divine or
accepting that you are connectedto it.
Derrick McQueen (25:25):
Yeah.
Colby King (25:25):
[Music starts.] We approach the piano and admire
how it gleams. If you didn'tknow better, you'd think it was
(25:46):
brand new. [Music ends.]
Derrick McQueen (25:53):
This nine-foot baby, foot grand piano that you
see here was a gift to DorothyMaynor, the woman who started
the Harlem School of the Arts,who was an opera singer, a
concert singer, so you know,music was really important to
Milan Terlunen (26:03):
Yeah.
her. This... We take care ofthis piano very well.
Derrick McQueen (26:09):
Yeah, it's about 70 years old now, but it
is just something about hearingthe music from this piano and
singing with it. There'ssomething about it that lets you
know that there is this graceand that that flows through this
space, which is why I mentionedthe sound before.
Milan Terlunen (26:29):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (26:29):
Music enables you to say without saying, and
you feel it. You just feel itbecause of the music. And
there's so much great music inthe church. It's... Whether it's
classical, whether it's jazz,whether it's blues or gospel,
it's all, it's all an effectiveway to bring Grace alive as a
(26:50):
spirit. It's almost like aspirit that goes through people.
Milan Terlunen (26:54):
Yeah. Um... I'm curious to know whether you've
experienced some of that feelingof grace through music outside
of a church, like in othercontexts that are not religious.
And thinking about like, youknow, listeners who maybe don't
attend church, but they have arelationship with music, you
(27:17):
know that this is resonatingwith them, but it might not be
religion.
Derrick McQueen (27:20):
You remember the story I told you when we
first met about the way musicmoves people in their spirit.
And on one of my birthdays, myfriends took me out to a club,
and we went to this gay club inthe 30s, and it was a jam packed
night, and around one o'clock inthe morning the music shifted,
and all of a sudden, everybodywas up on the dance floor. We
(27:42):
went out, we started dancing.And I was like, why am I singing
Milan Terlunen (27:43):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (27:43):
And we were... it was all gospel music. And
the lyrics to these songs?
people were on the floor dancingand singing because it was their
church.
Milan Terlunen (27:57):
Yeah.
Derrick McQueen (27:57):
It was a place where they felt comfortable,
where they felt grace. And ifthey felt that they couldn't be
in church on Sunday morning,they had it from one to three
o'clock before the drag starcame. [Laughs]
Milan Terlunen (28:09):
So, yeah, a gay club as a place where you can,
you can be filled with grace.
Derrick McQueen (28:16):
That's like the ballroom community is the same
thing. Yeah, it's the same thingin the ballroom, the
quote-unquote "ballroom" scenein the 70s and the 80s, it still
goes on, but it was anopportunity for, for queer folk,
whether they were, whether theywanted to be drag, wanted to be
trans, wanted to be drag, but itwas all contests of different
dancing and different, differentways of performing, and they had
(28:38):
different categories ofdifferent, different ways to be
queer. The ball community wasall about that: finding grace,
finding power, finding presence,finding identity, finding mercy.
You know, all the things thatchurch was supposed to do for
the queer community washappening in the ballroom.
Colby King (28:56):
[Music starts.] We're almost at the end of the
episode, but it's not the end ofthe conversation. We'll now
leave you with a little moreMusic to reflect on what you've
(29:46):
heard.
Milan Terlunen (29:46):
We'd love to hear your response to this
episode. If you have thoughts orstories to share, please send an
email or, even better, a voicenote to
team@insacredspacespodcast.com
Colby King (30:04):
In Sacred Spaces was produced by Olivia Branscum,
Colby King (that's me), AyaLabanieh and Milan Terlunen,
with musical compositions byStone Butler and technical
support from Evan Li and AnaMaria Rodriguez.
Aya Labanieh (30:18):
Thanks to our speakers and to the church and
ballroom communities forinviting us into their spaces.
Thanks also to MarÃa GonzálezPendás and Chris Chang for their
mentorship, and to Humanities NYand Columbia's Heyman Center for
the Humanities for theirsupport.
Milan Terlunen (30:35):
And most of all, thank you for listening. [Music
ends.]
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