Gaza, Sde Teiman, Mamdani, Rabin

On this week’s episode, Israel Policy Forum Policy Advisor and Tel Aviv-based journalist Neri Zilber and Israel Policy Forum Director of Strategic Initiatives and IPF Atid Shanie Reichman discuss the state of play in the Gaza ceasefire, the recent scandal over the IDF military advocate general and the Sde Teiman abuse, the American Jewish community after the ceasefire, the NYC election and Jewish community reactions to it, remembering Yitzhak Rabin z”l, and more.

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Episode Transcript

Shanie (00:05):
Shalom and welcome to Israel Policy Pod.
I'm your host, Shani Reichman,the Director of Strategic
Initiatives and of IPF at Teedat Israel Policy Forum.
I'm joined here by Nari Zilber,your usual host, a journalist
based in Tel Aviv and a policyadvisor at Israel Policy Forum.
Hi, Nari.

Neri (00:22):
Hi, Shani.
Uh yes, normally based in TelAviv, but now I'm wearing this
uh long-sleeved shirt uh made ofwool.
I think it's it's called uhsomething called a sweater.
Uh and it's cold outside andthey're a tall, very tall
building.
So I'm actually in New York aswell.

Shanie (00:38):
Um I think our listeners should know that it's 59
degrees Fahrenheit in Manhattanright now.
It is not cold.

Neri (00:45):
It's uh all relative.
And when you come from uh Eastor West Asia and the eastern
med, uh it's it's a bit nippyoutside, but I'm enjoying it.
Uh but yes, I'm uh I'm in NewYork and we're recording this on
uh November 4th.
Yes.
Uh an auspicious, inauspiciousday, I believe.

Shanie (01:03):
Um I I don't know the right word.

Neri (01:05):
Um Yeah, we're gonna go uh inauspicious day, probably
probably the right adjective.
Uh 30 years to the day of theuh assassination on the on the
Gregorian calendar, not the artsite.
Right.
Um although the the date itselfuh is seared in in most
Israelis' memory.

(01:26):
Uh not not the Hebrew calendarday, but the actual the actual
date.
Uh it's definitely seared inmine.
Uh 30 years to theassassination of uh Israeli
Prime Minister Ithaca Rabin inuh what came to be known as
Rabin Square, uh formerly KikarMal Khizrael uh in central Tel
Aviv, next to the municipality.
So uh 30 years to to that uhhorrific day.

(01:49):
Uh and also I hear it's uhelection day here in New York
City.
Yes.
That's not the reason why I'mhere, but uh but it's happening
as we speak.

Shanie (01:59):
Yes.
Uh there is a mayoral electionhappening right now in New York
City that has really centered onissues affecting Jews in Israel
in a way that's pretty unusualfor local elections.
So we'll talk more about thatas well.
But of course, we're going totalk about um your usual side of
the world in Ari, uh includingthe state of play in Gaza and
some internal Israeli affairs,including the State Iman affair

(02:21):
that we covered, I think a yearago, maybe more.
I'm sure that's now back on thenews cycle.
So um let's dig into it.

Neri (02:28):
And yes, we'll definitely get into it.
And I'd like to do uh like uhwhat they call a home and away
Shini, even though we're both inin your home, in my former home
in New York.
So uh what I'd like to do ifpossible, the first half we'll
talk about Israel and the secondhalf we'll talk about America.
Uh and I love to talk aboutAmerica.
Yeah, and it's uh yourspecialty.
So uh we'll talk about Mamdaniand the general state of

(02:51):
American Jewish well, the thegeneral state of the American
Jewry.
Um, but after we do like alittle wrap-up of uh of Israel
affairs, uh and I got in, I gotinto New York uh over this past
weekend.
So um a lot has happened as asusual in Israel.
Uh thankfully no full-scalewar.
Uh, like listeners and viewersof the podcast uh know I'm a bit

(03:14):
of a bit of a hex, but uh nolack of news uh in Israel the
last couple days.

Shanie (03:19):
You know, I like to keep my questions really short.
So you mentioned that the warin Gaza is still over.
So yes or no, why or why not?
Um, because I feel like everyperson I talk to has a different
perspective.
There are people who feel likeeverything's back to normal.
We're on the right track.
Other times you talk to folkswho make it seem as though it

(03:39):
could blow up at any moment.
In Israel, anything can alwaysblow up at any moment.
So um tell us what's going onon that front.

Neri (03:47):
So obviously, uh a fragile ceasefire already for a couple
of weeks uh in Gaza.
And we got into uh the lateststate of play last week with uh
Ambassador Dan Shapiro, whichwas a terrific episode, uh going
going deep into uh where we'reat and where we may be headed.
But look, back of the envelopecurrent state of play.
Yeah, the ceasefire is holdingbecause Donald Trump wants it to

(04:10):
hold.
And we've had two, basicallytwo serious uh escalations uh
since the ceasefire took hold.
One last week, uh early lastweek, the one the week prior.
But Trump really uh bore downon both the Netanyahu government
and uh via the various Arab andMuslim states on Hamas.

(04:31):
So the ceasefire is movingahead.
Uh we just saw three moredeceased hostages uh return for
burial uh to their families backin Israel.
We're expecting another one, wehope, later tonight.
Um, and by the way, the lastthree uh deceased hostages that
came back, uh all three were IDFsoldiers.
One was uh Asaf Khamimi, themost senior uh IDF commander and

(04:56):
officer to fall on October 7th,and really through throughout
the war, there were he was acolonel.
Um he was the head of theSouthern Gaza Brigade.
So basically the Gaza divisionuh that was overrun uh on that
morning is made up of tworegional brigades, the Northern
Gaza Brigade and the SouthernGaza Brigade.
He was a commander of theSouthern Gaza Brigade, and he

(05:18):
really was, if not the first,and one of the first commanders
to go out and and try to stopHamas with just a handful of uh
what they call his kind of uh HQdetail, uh, just a handful of
other soldiers, and he really uhput up a courageous fight
before he fell, and then hisbody was uh seized and taken

(05:38):
back to Gaza.
And uh he actually was thefirst one, we believe, uh, that
relayed back to well, the GazaDivision and the General Army,
uh, that Israel was now at war.
So he actually declared uh thatit was a war very early on in
the morning of October 7th.
So he he was returned and wasjust buried um, I believe

(05:59):
earlier today.
Uh and so there are now uh uheight bodies uh still in
captivity being held by Hamas.
Uh, we hope that'll go down toseven by the time this podcast
goes up.
Um five of, well, six of them,six of the eight uh are
Israelis, two of them, by theway, are foreign nationals.

(06:19):
So we're making progress, andthat's all for the good, even
though uh Hamas was uh slowrolling the process a little bit
uh for its own purposes, as weknow.
But uh it looks like there'senough pressure being brought to
bear on Hamas to actually moveahead, you know, every few days
with that.
Uh, we hope that all of themcome back, obviously.
Um, and then that the hope isthat that will um facilitate and

(06:42):
ease a transition between thisphase one of the deal as we've
come to know it into phase twoof the deal and all the bigger
picture uh heavy.

Shanie (06:52):
Theoretically, there are like 20 steps to this whole
plan, right?
So where are we in that list ofsteps?
Um, and how do we kind of movefrom one to the other?
Is there like a is there asequence where, okay, once all
the bodies of hostages arereturned, then we move into this
next phase?
Or are all these thingshappening simultaneously?

(07:13):
Because we do know there's talkof an international
stabilization force as it'sbeing called, right?
Um, so there are a lot ofdifferent moving pieces
happening at the same time.

Neri (07:21):
There are.
Um there are a lot of movingpieces, and I'd love to tell you
that there are uh uh concreteanswers, but there are no
concrete answers as we've cometo understand them.
There's still discussions aboutall the issues, and yeah, this
all came about.
This uh Gaza ceasefire dealcame about because of Trump's
20-point plan to end the war.
But that was a very ambitiousand very kind of bigger picture

(07:45):
document.
Um essentially the first phasehas to do with the first nine
points of the plan, more orless, depending on who's
counting.
Then you have uh, you know,maybe nine others that are
related to the second phase,each one of them a world unto
itself, a massive diplomaticlift.
Then you have these longer-termvisions um as part of the plan,

(08:08):
like uh discussions over thePalestinian Authority reforming
itself and returning back toactually govern and control the
Gaza Strip.
Uh, nobody believes that willhappen tomorrow or be allowed to
happen tomorrow, by the way,especially by the Israeli
government.
Uh, and then I think, you know,even the last point, the 20th
point, is um discussions betweenIsraelis and Palestinians about

(08:30):
uh um pathway to Palestinianself-determination.
Uh again, that is a alonger-term process, but all
that was in the 20-point planthat Trump laid out and that the
Israeli government agreed to,shouldn't, shouldn't uh go
unnoticed, uh, that thisfar-right Israeli government
agreed to to precisely thosethings that it vowed it would

(08:50):
never agree to.
But uh anyway, we're still uhin the first few points.
We're still in the first stageof of the ceasefire.
And the hope is that uh, well,um, once all the hostages are
back, or at least the vast, vastmajority of them, um, that
we'll start seeingimplementation of phase two,
which um a big part of it is,like you said, the the the kind

(09:12):
of development and raising andthen deployment of this
international stabilizationforce um a few blocks away from
where where we're recordingthis, Shanille, uh, at the UN uh
H HQ on the on the East River.
Um the they're trying to hashout a UN Security Council
resolution.
So again, there have beencertain leaks about that.

(09:33):
So, can you get a UN SecurityCouncil resolution to back this
force?
What will its mandate be?
Who will take part in it?
That's also unclear.
Earlier discussions aboutpotentially European uh and
Western uh militaries being partof it are most likely off the
table.
Uh, you have um likely Arab andMuslim states, but which Arab

(09:55):
and Muslim states?
Uh some are very cautious, someare uh maybe a bit more
proactive for their ownpurposes, but how effective are
they?
How effective are theirmilitaries?
And again, that's all still intrain.
Uh, but then you also have thegoverning component of it.
Um, the makeup of thePalestinian Technocratic
Committee that is set to run theday-to-day of the Gaza Strip,

(10:17):
still unclear.
Uh, the Palestinians are stillnegotiating various candidates
and names uh in Egypt that willbe part of it, very contentious.
Uh, and then all above all ofthis, both the International
Stabilization Force and thePalestinian Technocratic
Committee, there's supposed tobe um what uh the Trump uh plan
calls the Board of Peace.
Donald Trump is gonna be thechair.

(10:39):
I don't know how uh kind of uhday-to-day uh executive he's
gonna be in the Board of Peace.
I'm I'm doubtful.
Uh this is obviously the bodyalso that um Tony Blair was uh
was mooted to be to be a part ofand to potentially lead.
So who's gonna make up theBoard of Peace?
Uh, what is its manic gonna be?
How is it gonna work inpractice on the ground with the

(11:00):
various moving parts of both uhthe the various militaries, the
various uh governing committees,Hamas obviously still a factor
on the ground, the variousclans.
So again, a lot of work stillneeds to uh a lot of work still
needs uh to be done, but at thevery least, uh ceasefire is is

(11:21):
holding uh and we have to kindof wait and see patiently.
This is gonna be um weeks andmonths, I imagine, and not days,
but uh at the very least, uhIsrael is getting back hostages,
and for the most part, um theceasefire has held uh in Gaza
itself, which uh both all forthe good.

Shanie (11:40):
And what are the sentiments on the grounds in
Israel?
How are people feeling?
I I will say I unfortunatelywas not in Israel the actual day
that the living hostages allreturned.
It seemed very celebratory fromafar.
It was certainly a celebratoryatmosphere here in the American
Jewish community.
Um I arrived at Israel a fewdays later, and Saturday night I
went to Hostage Square.
And I was a little bitsurprised, I'll admit, um,

(12:03):
because it still felt like areal um space for mourning and
desperation, because of courseit was filled with families who
are still waiting for the bodiesof their family members to
return so that they can have afuneral in Sitchiva and have a
proper mourning period.
Um and it sort of felt like itfelt similar to how it would
have felt before um all of theliving hostages came back, it

(12:25):
seems.
So um there's I don't know ifit was cognitive dissonance I'm
describing, but I felt a littlebit strange.
Um and I I'm wondering if thatis how people are feeling in
Israel, or is that reallylimited to the hostage square
and everywhere else people arefeeling as though everything's
not going back to normal, butwe're in a post-war society.

Neri (12:44):
So I don't know if Israel is necessarily in a post-war
society, and even if it is, uh Ithink it'll take a long time
for everyone to kind of believethat we're in a post-war
society, given just the the pasttwo years.
Uh so I think it it's still um,you know, you don't you don't
quite believe that it's thatit's true.
You're still waiting for the uhalert on your phone for a
incoming Hootie ballisticmissile, but they've also

(13:06):
stopped.
Uh and you know, all kiddingaside, uh there's still RDF
soldiers deployed in the GazaStrip.
And the IDF has taken severalcasualties uh in southern Gaza,
as we've talked about in thispodcast.
So um there is still there'sstill combat going on, or you
know, if not a war situation,then at least a not normal or

(13:29):
abnormal um military situationstill ongoing.
I don't want to say kind of aspecial military operation that
has a different connotations inin different parts of the world,
but but yes, it it's you know,for the most part, overall,
Israel is is slowly coming backto um um a pre- and post-war
reality and that has its owncomplications, as I'm sure we're

(13:51):
gonna get into in in in just aminute, talking about the uh the
various uh news of the past fewdays.
Um but in terms of your actualquestion shitty, I think, you
know, again, I don't want tospeak to the hostage families
and the hostage uh forum.
Um I'm just an observer and ajournalist, and having covered
it for very closely on aday-to-day basis, literally um

(14:14):
every day for the past twoyears, I'll I'll venture to say
that it's it's more gearedtowards hostage square than
society at large.
The hostage square, and reallythe hostage families themselves,
including now many returnedhostages, and the hostage forum,
which is the main bodyrepresenting all of them and has
done a fantastic job for fortwo years under very difficult

(14:37):
circumstances.
They want to keep the pressureon to get everyone back home.
So there are still eight peoplein captivity in Gaza that they
want to get back home.
So they're doing their utmostto keep pressure on the
government, definitely, on themediators, um, on Donald Trump
itself, you know, issuingstatements addressing Trump
directly, and publicly in inIsrael.

(14:59):
So they want to keep keep upthe pressure until everyone
comes home, as they say, untiluntil the last one.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
Yeah.

Neri (15:06):
So it's uh I I completely understand the sentiment and and
thankfully it is moving forwardslower than we had hoped, but
it's still moving forward.
And um, you know, we're now ateight.
Hopefully it'll be seven by thetime the podcast goes up, and
uh we're we're getting there.
And uh you and I were chattingoffline before we started
recording, Shiny.
I mean, to my mind, it's a it'sa major miracle that we've

(15:27):
gotten to this point.
If you had told me on October8th, 2023, that you know, there
were 251 people, both alive andand deceased, taken on the day,
and you add that to the fourIsraeli hostages uh that precede
October 7th.
So the two fallen IDF soldiersfrom the 2014 war and the two um

(15:48):
civilians who you know havetheir own kind of um mental
issues and then entered Gazaalone.
Uh so you had 255 Israelis andfour national hostage in Gaza on
October 8, 2023.
If you had told me that uh we'dnow be down to eight, and you
know, obviously two years ofvery difficult war, but um you

(16:09):
know, Israel was negotiatingwith Hamas for over a decade for
two bodies and two civilians.
And uh a very senior Israeliofficial told me at the very
start of the war, I mean, thosenegotiations were going nowhere
because Hamas was demanding anexorbitant price.
Um and now we just got threebodies back the other day, and

(16:29):
you know, it's part of thisoverall deal.
But um, I the price I dare saywas um one that Israel was ready
to to pay and and did pay, andthat's also good.

Shanie (16:40):
Yes.
That that said, um Israel hasalso shifted a lot of their
preferences throughout this war.

Neri (16:47):
What do you mean?

Shanie (16:48):
I would say at the start, there was a resistance to
any any deal that called for acomplete end to the war.
And there was a there was apreference for a temporary
ceasefire over a full deal.
Right now, they signed a fulldeal at this point, right?
They even preferred it by now.
Right.
So there was a shift there.

Neri (17:07):
No, I mean 100%.
Um, you know, in the beginningof the war, Netanyahu didn't
even want to include the returnof hostages as part of the the
the war aims, the official goalsof the war.
Um, in the very beginning ofthe war, he didn't even mention
the hostages until umessentially he was he was forced
into it.
Uh yeah, I mean again, we don'tneed to kind of rehash how we

(17:29):
how we got here over the pastmonth.
But yes, uh there was DonaldTrump pressure on Netanyahu to
end the war.
But I'm just saying, in termsif you step back and leave aside
the personalities involved andthe various um permutations
politically of the past twoyears, just in terms of the cold
hard deal that was struck umand the fact that Israel was

(17:49):
able to extricate so manyhostages, especially in recent
weeks, really, uh, out of out ofGaza, extraordinary kind of in
in historical perspective, uhmaybe not in the perspective of
the October 7th war.

Shanie (18:03):
Yeah.
All the credit to those whodidn't let us and didn't let
politicians forget about them.
Right.

Neri (18:09):
All credit to the hostage families, honestly.

Shanie (18:12):
I don't know if you're ready to move on from the Gaza
conversation back inside insideIsrael, as they say.
Um, but I I think I am.
We'll talk about.
I told you I don't even knowhow to ask you this question in
an intelligent way, but thegeneral states Iman affair,
could we call it an affair?
Um, that is also bringing upthe uh confrontations between

(18:33):
the struggle, power strugglebetween the judicial system and
political echelon.
What is going on?

Neri (18:40):
Well, uh it's you you pose it very well.
What what the hell is going onuh in recent days with regard to
the State Iman scandal?
I mean, it's not just anaffair, it's it's it's a scandal
and and a disgrace, really, um,without prejudging it.
Uh, and I'll get into what itwas exactly.
And then really the the news ofrecent days, which was the head

(19:02):
lawyer for the IDF, themilitary advocate general, the
MAG, um, Ifat Tomir Yerushalmi.
So basically think of like youknow, the Jag Corps in the US
military, judge advocategeneral, so like a few good men,
various TV shows and movies.
So basically the the headlawyer for the IDF is called the

(19:22):
Mag, the military advocategeneral.
Um, Ifat Tomir Yerushalmi, uhonly the second female uh major
general in IDF history.
Uh yeah.
Um, so really a senior officer,um, a seasoned lawyer uh was
part of this unit for for many,many years.
And she uh she got herself intoa lot of trouble due to this

(19:48):
affair.
Um now, if we take a step back,just for our listeners and
viewers, uh, what is a Stateimanaffair?
Basically, back in the summer,the early summer of 2024, um, a
scandal broke out, uh,allegations of serious, serious
abuse uh of a Palestiniandetainee taken from Gaza during

(20:08):
the war and detained atStateiman.
Stateiman is a, well, it was ananonymous and very small
military base outside Belshevain Israel's southern Negev that
nobody had ever really heardabout until really October 7th,
when it was turned into the maindetention facility for uh
potential combatants.
So it's essentially set up aslike this temporary prison to

(20:29):
hold Gazans uh taken um, well,during October 7th, but really
over the course of the Gaza War.
And this individual was one ofthem.
Um, we believe he may have beena Hamas policeman inside Gaza,
uh, not as some Israeliright-wingers claimed, uh, a
Nukba terrorist, one of thehardcore commandos that invaded
southern Israel uh on October7th.

(20:51):
Uh anyway, these are thedetails.
Uh the allegations, again,there were allegations, and also
there was serious um proof ofit of major abuse uh of this
detainee by at least fiveIsraeli, for lack of a better
word, prison guards, the unitthat was tasked with um Are
prison guards part of themilitary?

Shanie (21:13):
Are these soldiers are these considered soldiers?
They're not general, like sortof hired security.

Neri (21:19):
No, they're not hired security.
Um I mean, some are regulararmies, some are reservists.
I mean, there's also been umthis incident aside, there were
many reports either in theinternational media or even uh
in local media, but really by byHAR, it's uh the left-wing
newspaper.
Um anonymous individuals thathad served in at State T Iman

(21:40):
coming forward and saying, yeah,this was the situation there
was was quite bad in terms ofabuse.
Now, again, um this needs to beinvestigated, which is what the
MAG is for, right?
They're investigating uh one oftheir purposes is investigating
wrongdoing inside the IDF.
Uh the IDF is committed to uhacting and operating according
to both Israeli law andinternational law, and things

(22:02):
have to be legal.
That is the difference betweena Western army and a militia,
right?
You can't just do whatever youwant, uh whatever you want to
whoever you want.
So again, going back to StateIman uh and this specific
incident, there are seriousallegations.
I mean, this is a familypodcast, so I'm not going to get

(22:24):
into the most graphic of theabuse allegations.
You can all Google it, fine.
Uh so the MAG uh startedinvestigating, and effectively
it raided State Iman andarrested uh some of these, for
lack of a better word, again,prison guards.
This set off a firestorm,especially amongst the Israeli

(22:46):
right.
So supporters of the Netanyahugovernment, you know, Channel
14, the kind of right-wingmouthpiece for Netanyahu.
Um you had a situation whereeven Netanyahu coalition members
and ministers, so Knessetmembers and ministers, um, broke
into State Iman in protest.

Shanie (23:08):
In defense of the prison guards.
It I would say in part, I justwant to add the context that um
this is in the aftermath ofOctober 7th, and of course the
prisoners themselves are aresome of the worst perpetrators
of the October 7th massacres.
So that definitely adds a lotof sensitivity here.
Not in defense of the prisonguards.
I just wanted to add that.

Neri (23:27):
No, no, look, all of it is in the context of October 7th.
There wouldn't be a state imanin any of this if it wasn't
October 7th.
Um, you can you can use thatcaveat for everything that has
gone on inside the Gaza Stripfor the past two years.
Yes, we all hold Hamas uh uhmore responsible than any other
actor or decision maker in allof this, and yet uh and yet,

(23:50):
right?
Israel is a country of laws.
The IDF is an army of laws anda chain of command, and you
can't just do whatever you want,no matter if it's the worst
person in the world that you'redealing with, either on the
battlefield or in detention.
So, anyway, uh to get back tothe kind of state the the

(24:13):
timeline of events, you had theuh essentially Netanyahu
coalition members invadeSteteman in support of the
arrested IDF soldiers.
You then had an invasion ofanother IDF base in central
Israel, which is where the thekind of IDF prosecution's

(24:33):
offices and detention facilitiesare.
So they invaded yet another uhIDF base in Betlid, right?
And again, uh the Israel policedid very little to to stop
them.
That's a separate issue, but uhagain, there were no
consequences for uh you knowIsraeli ministers invading an
IDF base, right?

(24:54):
Uh and again, it shows youwhere it's pretty controversial.
It's controversial, and again,we you know this was a it's a
massive scandal a year ago, umover a year ago, who you know
who remembers?
So in this public and politicalclimate, uh Ifato Meri
Rushalmi, the mag, the headlawyer in the IDF, took it upon
herself to leak video of theguards again allegedly abusing

(25:19):
the Palestinian detainee.

Shanie (25:21):
Is it alleged?
Is it alleged if it's on video?

Neri (25:25):
Look, again, videos are videos, but this is why we have
um due process and courts andall of that stuff that uh all of
my lawyer friends you know liketo talk about.
Um this is important.
It's not a minor issue, right?
But she took it, she took itupon herself, um, her and a
number of people in her in herteam, but at the very top levels

(25:48):
of the military advocategeneral unit in the IDF to leak
this video to Channel 12 news inAugust of 2024 to essentially
relieve pressure on her and herunit, uh, given the political
and public climate.
Um, and that set off a massive,again, public debate inside
Israel.

(26:09):
The lines of the debate prettypredictable, right?
The right wing is saying uhdoesn't matter what these prison
guards did, they're heroes.
Like you said, they're dealingwith the worst of the worst,
responsible for October 7th,even though that individual may
not have been personallyresponsible for October 7th,
fine.
Um, and then you had, let'ssay, the more liberal side of

(26:30):
the Israeli, uh Israelispectrum.
Spectrum, saying, you know,we're a country of laws, uh,
we're not militias.
We are in the Middle East, butwe don't want to be like the
Middle East.
And if these uh villa in thejungle.
Yeah, which is also um, youknow, the jungle is overrunning

(26:52):
the villa.
Even if you even if you even ifyou believe that uh overused uh
cliche, uh, you know, this isone of those incidents where
yeah, the the jungle is very,very clearly overrunning your
villa um in, you know, on the onthe shores of the
Mediterranean.
So basically, uh she leakedthis this video uh to relieve

(27:15):
pressure from her to essentiallyexplain and to trigger this
debate that did happen.
Um but more recently, this iswhere she gets into trouble.
I'll spare you the details, butit came out uh inside the
system that her unit, and thenit turned out her per she
personally leaked the video.
Um, and that in priorinvestigations into the leak,

(27:39):
she had lied to both theattorney general and definitely
to the Supreme Court.
That's perjury, right?
Because the peopleinvestigated, you know, where
the leak came from.
Uh the leak itself, sinceyou're the highest legal
authority in the army, that'syou know, obstruction of
justice, right?
You know, you're you're messingup with the the due process

(28:01):
that you yourself and your yourunit, your people, have to
provide to the alleged prison,you know, alleged abusers.
Um and that quickly snowballed,right, when it came to the fore
and uh became public last week.
Uh very quickly, the Nanyaogovernment and defense ministry

(28:21):
Salikats, you know, were callingfor her head.
So she would very clearly hadto kind of take leave.
And then last Friday sheactually admitted uh that she
herself leaked it, because Ithink the evidence against her
was um overwhelming.
You know, WhatsApp messages anduh people that were involved in
it, you know, had essentiallysaid as much.
Uh she resigned on Friday.

(28:42):
So she is now the former headlawyer of the IDF, the she is
the former MAG.
Uh and I mean the tale takesanother turn uh on Sunday, which
you you may have seen, but uhit definitely made news
internationally.
Uh Ifate Tomelujani wentmissing on Sunday for several

(29:05):
hours.
And she allegedly left a noteto her family, and her car was
found kind of deserted near umnear the beach kind of north of
Tel Aviv.
And there were for a number ofhours there was serious concern
for her life.

unknown (29:22):
Right?

Neri (29:22):
Where did she go?
Because again, you know, you uha week prior, you were a major
general in the IDF, and in justa matter of days, you not only
had to resign, you're now beinginvestigated for crime, right?
Perjury, obstruction ofjustice, all of that.
The defense minister isthreatening to uh take away your
rank, which has kind of knockon effects in terms of pension

(29:44):
and and your future uh yourfuture situation.
Uh, and you may go to prison,right?
So you're looking at it kind ofa you know trial.
So again, you were the toplawyer in the IDF, and now this
again, so there was a majorconcern.
Thankfully, thankfully,thankfully, they found her uh a
few hours later on the beach uhIn Eritalia, she was uh she was
fine.
Um, and they took her in uh forquestioning, for checkups, and

(30:07):
then they arrested her becauseuh the I the Israel police can't
find her phone.
So her phone is part of theevidence, and she again,
according to reports, she didn'tquite provide a reasonable
explanation as to what happenedto her phone.
She may have thrown it into theinto the sea.
Seems plausible.
Yeah.

(30:28):
Um, I mean, a bit of sarcasm inyour voice.

Shanie (30:31):
But again, so again, no, I sorry, I did not mean to be
sarcastic.
I think that it's prettysketchy to not be able to find
your phone as part of a criminalinvestigation.
She like, okay, I'll stop spI'll stop speculating now, but
no, again, it's not sarcastic.

Neri (30:44):
I'm trying to just detail like what we know for sure and
what's speculation.
So again, this is she is nowcurrently still under arrest.
She's being investigated.
They're looking for her phone.
Literally, they have diverslooking for her phone because
they think she threw away thephone when she went missing for
those several hours.
Now, again, was she really umin serious distress?

(31:05):
Was it a ploy to find a, likeyou said, a plausible
explanation for why you wouldlose to your phone?
I don't know.
The whole thing is terrible,it's a terrible story.
By all accounts, she was ahighly regarded officer and
lawyer who made a terriblemistake.
And like in most of thesecases, cover-up was worse than

(31:29):
the crime.
So you leaked the video andthen you tried to cover it up
and lied to, amongst others, theSupreme Court.
Uh, and now it all came out allof a sudden.
So this is essentially uh, youcall it the State Teman affair,
but for most Israelis, it's theMAG affair, the military
advocate general affair.
Because, and this is the reallythe crux of the matter, for the

(31:50):
right wing led by thegovernment and the defense
minister, and definitely theprime minister, um, this is
proof that you can't trust thelawyers, that as Israel Khatz,
the defense minister said, um,they were cooking up blood
libels against our soldiers.
Why were you in eveninvestigating our soldiers?
You know, let alone leaking thetape and causing Israel massive

(32:13):
international damage.
They're missing the major pointthat we all can clearly see is
that, yeah, you know, therewouldn't have been an
investigation or a tape if therehadn't been major, major
allegations of abuse in StateIman.
Number one.
Number two, the MAGs, one ofits roles is to actually
investigate wrongdoing by thearmy.
So you can't just say allwrongdoing is not wrongdoing

(32:36):
because it happens to be anIsraeli soldier doing it, right?
Which is essentially the theline that the government is
taking, including um today, whena new military advocate general
was appointed.
Actually, by all accounts, avery reasonable appointment.
But Israel Khat said, you know,uh, we want we want our MAG to
not cook up uh essentially bloodlibels against our soldiers.

(32:59):
It's like, well, I mean, youknow, there may be wrongdoing.
I dare say there likely iswrongdoing by certain, you know,
soldiers and officers andunits.
It has to be investigated,right?
That's obvious that's clearlyright.
But in terms of the hierarchyof the current debate, um, it's
fallen way, way down below thereal debate or the overwhelming

(33:20):
debate right now, which is um,you know, what this specific mag
did or did not do, leaking thevideo, who knew about the leak,
the conspiracy theories thatstem from that, and so on and so
forth.
So again, uh she this is thebottom line, she caused major
damage to trust in not only thatspecific institution, but all

(33:43):
kind of judicial institutions inIsrael, which has been a major,
major point of contention nowsince this Netanyahu government
came into power three years ago.
Um, she caused major, majordamage to what I like to call
you know the anti-anti-Netanyahuliberal forces or camp in
Israel, because you know, a arun-of-the-mill middle Israel

(34:07):
citizenslash potential futurevoter will say, Well, they're
all the same, they're allterrible.
Right?
Uh Netanyahu may have done thisor that you know and blade into
his corruption trial, but lookat the top lawyer of the IDF,
right?
Leaking this tape and you know,all of that.
Um, so she she caused majordamage, and you know, I all my

(34:28):
sympathy goes out to her, butshe it's just not done.
It's just not done, um,especially as uh for a person in
that position.
And then my final point,Shanie, this all comes uh in
addition to the news, I believeit was yesterday, uh, another
kind of legal political scandal.
The police raided theHistadrut, um, the big trade

(34:51):
union federation, theheadquarters in in central Tel
Aviv, uh, massive kind ofscandal involving corruption,
favorite trading, all of that.
Um again, the details are lessimportant than the bottom line,
which is the head of theHistadrut was also part of the
let's let's call it again, theanti-Netanyahu liberal camp.
He was a major um, I want tosay gatekeeper, but he was a

(35:15):
major counterbalancing forceagainst the government if, say,
the government was evenconsidering uh not adhering to a
Supreme Court decision, right?
So the head of the Histadrutsaid, you know, if you do that,
we're gonna shut down thecountry, we're gonna go on
strike, right?
When Netanyahu tried to fireformer defense minister Joav
Garant way back in March of2023, it was the Histadrut that

(35:36):
actually brought the country toa halt the next day and forced
Netanyahu to backtrack.
So again, you should have donebetter.
Again, I mean, if you know theHistadrut, you know that uh this
is this is probably not new forthem in terms of you know shady
dealings and corruption.
But you yourself as a as afigure um trying to uphold
certain norms and defendingcertain institutions in the

(35:57):
country, uh, you can't do that.
Um and now the Hazi Stadut isin jail, he's being
investigated.
Many others are as well.
Uh so again, a very uh bad fewdays for um uh the liberal quote
unquote or democratic camp,probably better name for it, the
democratic camp in Israel.
Uh, and that all ties back touh, well, part of it to State

(36:19):
Iman.
Uh so yeah, I'll stop there.
By the way, Shani, I know youyou had many questions going in.
Did that answer your question?

Shanie (36:27):
Honestly, yes.
I think that was reallycomprehensive.
That was really comprehensive.
I did come in here thinking itwas the Seitiman affair, and you
convinced me it was the Magaffair, which was um, I think
your goal.
So I definitely am on board.
And to be honest, I did nothave all the information you
provided.
So that was great.

Neri (36:43):
Yeah.
Um again, it's kind of insidebaseball, but it has a warm.

Shanie (36:48):
No, but it was also some really it felt like some fun
gossip too.
Not gossip, obviously, becauseit's journalism.
But when journalism feels likegossip, you know that's my
favorite thing.
So Yeah.

Neri (36:58):
And you know, you're you're following the news.
Again, I was here, but I wasfollowing the news on Sunday.
It's like, wait, she wentmissing?
Where is she like I honestly itcould have been?

Shanie (37:06):
She was hiding in the beach?
Like, no, no.

Neri (37:08):
It could have been obviously it ended could have
ended very, very tragically.
Thankfully it didn't.
But you're saying this is thisis like uh House of Cards, like
a Netflix show.

Shanie (37:16):
Aaron Powell I was worried you were going into
murder mystery territory, butluckily we we didn't.

Neri (37:21):
No, but uh did she stage the disappearance to get rid of
the phone?
I mean, let's call it like itis, right?
Uh so they're looking for thephone.
Anyway, that's that's what'shappening in Israel.
This is all part of this is allpart of the post-war um you
know, back to reality, eventhough it's uh very far from
reality.

Shanie (37:41):
Uh I just want to note that I know that most people
don't watch this on YouTube, butyou're missing out because
there are a lot of facialexpressions expressions
revealing all of my trueemotions and some of Nari's as
well.
Uh so I just want to name that,even though most of our
listeners are not on YouTube.

Neri (37:58):
Yeah, I hope the uh the disappointment and anger uh
comes across in my facialexpressions because uh these
things are just not done.
And it's definitely not donewhen you yourself and the entire
system and all theseinstitutions are under major,
major stress and under major,major fire, metaphorical fire,
but fire from the currentgovernment, and you're not

(38:21):
making anyone's life uh easier.
And if we're looking atelections coming up in well, the
coming year, uh this will be amajor uh point, you know, to
kind of dilute the anger at thegovernment, saying, well, how
can you trust these gate, theseactual gatekeepers, these
institutions?

(38:41):
They're all the same.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
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We promote policy measuresendorsed by credible security

(39:05):
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that engage and educate leadersacross the political,
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(39:26):
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Neri (39:41):
That is uh all the news that's fit to uh fit to talk
about from Israel, I believe.
Uh I wanted to shift Shani toyour neck of the woods, which is
now my neck of the woods.
Um first, I mean, very briefly,what was your I mean, you kind
of big picture you, like you interms of, you know, American

(40:01):
Jewish society, the discourse,and also you personally, as
Sheny, uh head of uh IPF's uhYoung Professional Network, has
there been a change in theconversation since ceasefire
took effect?
Um has the has the kind of uhlevel of emotions gone down a

(40:22):
little bit or has it remainedsteady?

Shanie (40:25):
I think the emotions are going down a little bit.
The broad spectrum of we'llcall them liberal American Jews,
which of course is the majorityof American Jews, are feeling
that sigh of relief, are feelingthe move towards a post-war
Israel that we can relate to ina very different way.
Doesn't mean that people areready to have the hard

(40:46):
conversations that, frankly,we've been postponing for two
years, um, that were put onpause within Israeli society to
some extent and between AmericanJewry and Israeli society.
Uh, but I think that's wherewhere we're looking towards.
And of course, those of us whoreally exist in um spaces that
are trying to influence thepublic discourse and are

(41:06):
thinking critically about policyare very much in this headspace
of what is the horizon, what isthe vision for Israel, both in
the democratic front and thesecurity front and the peace
front and in all of thesespaces.
And um, some of us are areitching to get to get back to it
and and and think about how wecan move in a positive
direction.
Um, but but I don't know that Idon't know that that's where
Israelis are at, as you noted.
I said, Are we in a post-warsociety?

(41:28):
And you almost laughed in myface, right?
Like, of course, we're we'renowhere near that.
And I certainly felt that whenI was in Israel, and of and and
I think that that that gap is isgonna remain because the sort
of trauma of of war doesn't uhfade that quickly, I suppose.

Neri (41:45):
Yeah, the the hardening of um Israeli minds.
It's almost the war was almost,I don't want to say a
distraction, but when whenyou're in it, you're kind of
focused on the day-to-day andand what will happen tomorrow
and all that.
Now that Israelis are kind ofum well, at least there's a
ceasefire.
It's uh uh I think there's alot of processing going on, and

(42:08):
some of the processing has beenum well, more hard line than
than I'd like.
But uh I think that's like yousaid, it's gonna be a a a longer
term process.

Shanie (42:18):
And in terms of American Jews, I mean I think most of us
are hoping that the discoursein this country can move past
Israel a little bit.
It's been so centered aroundIsrael at every level, federal,
national, and we're and we'regonna talk about local,
literally a local mayorelection, not even at the state
level, um, that's centeringaround Israel in a lot of ways.
And I think a lot of us arejust hoping we could be ignored

(42:41):
for a little bit and thateveryone will stop talking about
us so much and stop talkingabout Israel so much.
I don't think that'snecessarily in the cards.
Um because to be honest, therewas a frustrating component of
seeing the uh we'll call themdetractors of Israel, right?
Like sort of the properanti-Israel camp, um not really

(43:03):
expressing what I would think tobe like a legitimate relief.
Or I think part of the issue isthat Trump was the one who
orchestrated the ceasefire.
And so for those on the farleft, it's it is hard to
acknowledge a positive thingcoming from Trump, right?
I think you've talked aboutthis in the podcast before.
It's been even hard for me, Iwill say, um, to be so positive
about something that Trump did,someone with whom I disagree in

(43:24):
a lot of things.
And so um, on certainly on thefar left and in in the
anti-Israel camp on the left,it's been hard to be positive
about this.
But I would hope that peoplewho have been yelling about this
war for two years since the dayit started against Israel would
at least acknowledge that it isnow at least temporarily over.
And we haven't seen any ofthat.
So the discourse hasn't shiftedthat much outside of the

(43:48):
American Jewish community, eventhough I think a lot of us are
taking a breath.
But um I do want to talk abouthow it's played into the race in
New York City.
Today is election day.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
It is.

Shanie (43:58):
Everyone I talk to, I've been talking to mostly Israelis
today, so everybody wants toknow what the hell's going on.

Neri (44:03):
Um I want to know what's going on.

Shanie (44:06):
Okay.
So I'll speak about AmericanJewry in general, and then I'll
speak about young people becauseobviously there's there are
different politics amongst youngpeople and the general um
community.
Insofar as there is a unifiedAmerican Jewish community in New
York, they they're not votingfor Mamdani and they do not like
him.
Um, over a thousand rabbissigned a letter opposing him

(44:29):
last week, um, including somereally prominent ones.
Rabbi Elliott Cosgrove of ParkAvenue Synagogue, again, one of
the uh largest, most prominentcongregations here, um, gave a
whole sermon about it.
There is this new developmentin which it is now legal and
maybe even encouraged now forreligious leaders, which
includes rabbis, to take stanceson candidates.

(44:51):
They can endorse candidatesnow, which is really unique.
I don't know how I don't knowif that's a good thing or a bad
thing broadly.

Neri (44:57):
This was illegal before?

Shanie (44:59):
Yeah, because the same way that nonprofits, right?
Like Israel Policy Forum cannotendorse a candidate as a
nonprofit organization.
You're a 5001 C3.
So a synagogue, a synagogue anda church wasn't able to either
before.
That has recently shifted.
And so that's why you are nowseeing.
I was actually shocked.
I didn't realize that the lawhad changed, and all of a sudden
I see rabbis um publiclyendorsing Cuomo or publicly

(45:22):
speaking out against Modani,who's gonna be the could will
very likely be the mayor of thecity that um they're running a
pulpit in.
Um and then I realized this umis a recent law that changed.
Um interesting.
So that's added a reallyinteresting dynamic.
Um, before people were a lotmore subtle in their criticisms
of public officials of electedofficials, and now far less so.

(45:42):
In terms of young people,certainly there are a lot of um
young American Jews who, like alot of young New Yorkers, are
energized by Bam Dani.
They see, first of all, theydeeply have deep disdain for
Cuomo for a variety of reasons,including the sexual harassment
allegations against him, um, anda lot of other uh components of
his handling and andspeculation of corruption,

(46:04):
things like that.
Um, the general, to be honest,a lot of these are criticisms
that young people have of theold guard in general, the old
political guard, which Cuomodoes represent in a lot of ways.
And they're excited by someoneum young in Mamdani who also has
a lot of what they perceive asnew and fresh ideas, free buses
and childcare and all the likeum sort of democratic socialist

(46:24):
um policies that you see.
So I think a lot of people wantto be energized by him.
Obviously, there's a lot ofconflicting feelings for the
pro-Israel Jewish community.
Um, I still see young peoplekind of on the fence.
To be honest, a lot of my myfriends are are on the fence
about this because they don'treally want to vote for an
anti-Israel candidate, which heobjectively is.

(46:46):
Um, and so it's a struggle.
But to be honest, the thepolling that I've seen, the last
polling, had only 16% of Jewsvoting for Mamdani.
So if there was ever areferendum, like only getting
16% of Jews in New York meansthe Jews don't like you, right?
Um, which um That's animportant point.
That's an important point,right?
So as much as I might see theyoung progressive lefties who

(47:08):
are even canvassing for Mamdani,that is not representative.
16% is like nobody, right?
I don't know if that's gonna betrue.
We'll see in the exit polls.
We don't know for sure yet, butagain, that's extremely low
with Cuomo getting, I think, 60%in the last poll.
Again, these are this is notwho actually voted.
This is just like preliminaryearly voting exit polls, things
like that.

(47:28):
I will say, I think theconversation shifted a lot with
people who were on the fence,moving a little bit in the last
week.
There was a resurfaced video ofhim in 2023 saying that this is

a direct quote (47:38):
when the boot of the NYPD, the police
department, is on your neck,it's laced by the IDF, right?
So directly tying this line,which I would say is very
clearly an anti-Semiticconspiracy theory, that the
problems of our current societyin America, the most violent of
our problems, are is tied backto Israel, is tied back to the
Jewish state.
Um, and I'll go so far as tosay the Jewish people, right?

(47:59):
And that seems to have been ared line for some who are
keeping more of an open mind.
Angela Buktal, who I willcomfortably call like the most
famous American rabbi, basicallyat Central Synagogue, um,
potentially our largestcongregation here in New York,
um, who did not sign that letteroriginally, um, spoke in a
sermon about this.
I won't say that shespecifically endorsed or didn't

(48:20):
endorse, but she called it whatit is, which is, you know, uh
anti-Semitism last Shabbat, Ibelieve.
Um so that changed a fewthings.
And there was a phone bank fromAmdani with Jeremy Corbyn.
Um and I think that those twocombined.

Neri (48:35):
Um the former head of the Labor Party in the UK who was uh
drummed out of the party overreal allegations of, you know,
not only anti-Israel sentiment,but anti-Semitism.

Shanie (48:47):
Aaron Powell Yes.
Uh so I think those two thingscombined, which are happening in
the last week, probably shiftedthings a little bit.
I think that a lot of thepeople who were on the fence,
and I say this genuinely, Ithink a lot of young progressive
Jews are struggling with thisdecision.
And I I I speculate that thatshifted um a couple folks.
But again, um if it's true andthere's only 16% of Jews voting

(49:08):
for Umdani, then that's as muchas referendums against him as
anything will be.
So that's what we're seeingright now.
And of course, like all theUpper East Side Jewish moms
where I live are campaigningactively for Cuomo, just to give
some more context here.
Um anyone I yeah, anyone I talkto who's over 30, it's not even
a question, to be honest.

Neri (49:26):
Right.
Uh and it's worth mentioningyou are a denizen and a citizen
of the Upper East Side.

Shanie (49:31):
Aaron Powell I am a citizen of the Upper East Side,
yes.
Where it's pretty obvious whopeople in my neighborhood are
voting for.

Neri (49:37):
Yeah.
Uh I guess the the vibe wouldbe a bit different, say, in uh
deep Brooklyn.

Shanie (49:41):
Um Yes.
Brooklyn's a little different.

Neri (49:45):
Aaron Powell And Shani.
So okay, I mean it's obviouslyelection day, and you know, I
saw one poll last night becauseI, you know, I'm on the front
lines of of this of the storynow.
Unbeknownst to me, but um I sawa poll last night that the gap
was actually narrowing betweenMamdani and and Como.
I mean, again, uh this podcastwill likely go up tomorrow, so

(50:07):
we'll be a lot smarter, or ourlisteners will be a lot smarter.
But um, in the event thatMamdani wins, what will be the
reaction from the Jewishcommunity here in New York and
maybe farther afield?

Shanie (50:20):
Okay.
So, first of all, I want to sayI know it's always risky the
day of an election to predicthow the election's gonna go.
Very few people are predictingthat Mamdani will lose.

unknown (50:29):
Right.

Shanie (50:30):
She is with a with up with almost certainty going to
be our next mayor.
I I know I really like I don'twant to say hope that I'm wrong.
I I could easily be wrong, um,but it will it will be
surprising.
I've been looking at a lot ofpolls all day, but again,
anything can happen.
Um, anything can happen ifMamdani wins.
I think there are a lot ofinstitutions that are actually

(50:51):
prepared to work with him.
Even pretty mainstream ones areare working very hard.
Of course, there are those whoare it's hard when you spent
several weeks or monthscampaigning against him to then
go and extend a hand.
But there are still very largecongregations and um large New
York Jewish institutions, verymainstream ones, that held
mayoral debates that includedhim, um, and that I think are

(51:14):
are thinking really criticallyabout how to engage him
thoughtfully if he becomes themayor.
Um, I have a lot of of faith inum the Federation here and the
JCRC here and a lot of theinstitutions that they take
their job seriously ofrepresenting the Jews of New
York.
Um and I I have I have a lot ofum trust that they will build a
relationship with him.
I don't know his hisreceptiveness to this sort of

(51:36):
thing.
It's hard to tell during acampaign, especially when his
whole base is young progressiveswho are in aren't really into
Israel.
And um it's it's hard to knowwhat he'll actually do if he
wins.
Um, but I do think the Jewishcommunity is preparing for that
really actively.
We have a really good uminfrastructure here for that.
So I have a lot of faith thatwe'll make it work whenever it

(51:57):
happens.
Um I I will add because I'm umI'm a person who I don't think
who I think will be lessaffected than a lot of others.
Um but I do worry um that inplaces like Brooklyn, where
there are a lot ofultra-orthodox Jews who receive
a lot more anti-Semitic or aresubject to a lot more

(52:17):
anti-Semitism and hate crimesand even violent hate crimes,
um, I am concerned that thiswill embolden a lot a lot of the
people who commit those hatecrimes against them.
I just want to name that.
Um although a Satmer leader,who obviously represents a
really small portion of thecommunity, but a Satmar Hasidic
leader actually endorsed Mamdaniyesterday, I think.
Um but again, that's not reallyrepresentative of the Jewish

(52:39):
community or certain or theOrthodox community either, which
I'm I'm also sort of live inthat community as well.

Neri (52:47):
And bigger picture, the fact that this kind of candidate
running on a democratic ticket,right, in okay, uh New York,
New York City is is fairlyliberal, but uh, you know, there
are major pockets of New YorkCity who voted for Donald Trump
last time, right?
He did better this pastelection um you know in New York

(53:08):
City than he did than he didpreviously.
What does it say about thedirection not only of the
Democratic Party but politics inAmerica, where such a uh I'll
I'll use the word, unabashedlyanti-Israel candidate, right,
um, who actually didn't backdown at all during the campaign.
I mean, I you know, it didn'tseem like he really backed down

(53:30):
from those positions uh when hewas asked flat out.
Maybe he didn't address themdirectly, but he didn't back
down from it, didn't apologize.
What does it say about uhpotentially future races, future
directions in Americanpolitics?
Or should we not read into whathappens today in New York City
vis-a-vis the wider country?

Shanie (53:48):
I I don't think people are voting for Amdani because
he's because he doesn't supportIsrael.
I think that they're voting forhim for a lot of reasons, and a
lot of them have to do withAndrew Cuomo.
I want to say that a lot ofthem have to do with Andrew
Cuomo and not about Amdanihimself and support for him.
And a really young, energetic,well-spoken candidate.
I don't know if you watch thedebates, but for most of them,

(54:10):
he in the primaries, he easilywon those debates really well.
Even for someone like me whodoesn't really support a lot of
his positions.
I was, I mean, he really wonthose debates handed.
Um so I think it's more than Idon't think people are like
sitting around voting for Omdanibecause he um is perceived as
being like pro-Palestine oranti-Israel.

(54:31):
Not that I want to frame thoseas against each other, because I
don't necessarily umanti-Israel, and there's also,
you know, a certain kind ofpro-Palestinian.
And uh Yeah, absolutely.
Um so I don't want to see itthat way on a larger level.
I think that many perceive aBamdani win as being very good

(54:52):
for Donald Trump because then hecan position this as being the
standard Democrat is a socialistand is anti-Israel, et cetera,
et cetera.
And that's really good on anational level for Republicans.
So I will say that's a lot ofwhat I'm hearing about the
impact.
Um, less about marginalizing,um, actually marginalizing

(55:14):
moderate Democrats, more aboutthe perception of them being
marginal and presenting this asbeing the dominant democratic
opinion or views, which I don'tthink it is.
I think that people vote forvery different issues on in a
local election, and they wouldvote very differently on a
national scale.

Neri (55:30):
So I think this is a very important point, maybe obvious
maybe to Americans, but all ourlisteners, um, whether
especially in Israel, but alsoaround the world.
Uh you know, you can saywhatever you want about Mamdani
as both a candidate and apolitician, but there was a
certain specific context to thisspecific race in the specific
city.

(55:50):
Uh Israel was obviously a bigpart of it, but not maybe I'll
venture to say not theoverwhelming part of it.
So maybe extrapolating too muchfrom his potential victory
would also be erroneous.

Shanie (56:06):
Yeah.
I will just add, in an ideallocal election, Israel does not
come up at all.
It is not asked about, it isnot mentioned.
Jews and anti-Semitism shouldbe mentioned because it is the
most Jewish city in thiscountry, or like then any city
in this country.
But to be asking directly aboutthis shouldn't happen.
It happened because a lot ofhis campaign or happened to have

(56:29):
to do with some of theseissues.
He's been bringing up this upin his activist career for a
decade.
I was thinking about it.
And of course, Benger Cuomowanted to position it that way
too, right?
Everybody wanted to position itthis way for different reasons.
In an ideal scenario, thiswould have nothing to do with
Israel.

Neri (56:45):
Yeah.
Um I mean, some of it Mamdanihimself bears responsibility for
because uh I know this fromsomeone who went to college with
him.
Uh this was, you know, theIsrael thing didn't pop up uh at
the start of this campaign.
It's been with Mamdani sincecollege.
Um it's not really my story totell, but you know, he was very
anti-Israel, very um, very uhBDS-y uh during his college

(57:12):
days, and I think that thatcontinued maybe even until the
present.
So uh he, you know, that's partof his record as well,
publicly.

Shanie (57:20):
Yeah, yeah.

Neri (57:22):
Uh okay.

Shanie (57:23):
Um I think we've we've devoted enough time to this
conversation because honestly,I'm exhausted thinking about the
mayoral election here.
But I do want to end byacknowledging what day it is.
Okay.
I I I spend a lot of timethinking about Rabin's legacy.
For those who don't know IsraelPolicy Forms founding, while
our organization has evolved alot over the past uh few

(57:45):
decades, we were founded toadvance Rabin's vision.
And he really was a visionaryand he had a lot of courage and
a lot of resilience.
And he was really trying tomake a better Israel.
And he made a lot of reallyhard decisions.
And I want to honor that today.
Um, and I want to encourage allof us to think about what it
what it means to be a braveleader, because I think that

(58:07):
having strong visionaryleadership is what's missing for
Israelis and Palestinians andmaybe Americans and everybody
else right now.
So I do want to recognize thattoday.
Um, I don't see it as centralto the discourse.
I'm curious if Israelis aretalking and thinking about
Urbeen's legacy today.
I I think there are a lot ofreally amazing folks working in

(58:30):
the American Jewish community tobring that up more and more.
Um, I I just showed you today aclass of 95.
Um, my friend Barak Sella uhtranslated a literary anthology
of the assassination of PrimeMinister Yshak Rabin with a
bunch of poems, um, which isgreat.
And he's one of the peoplewho's really trying to raise
awareness so that people don'tforget the legacy of Rabin.

(58:50):
But um, it is a struggle hereto bring this up every year.
And I'm wondering what theperception is in Israel, if we
can cover that quickly.

Neri (58:58):
Yeah, I mean, look, there was a major rally uh on Saturday
night, uh, right at uh nowRabin Square, uh, although it's
under renovation, so it was onthe side of Rabin Square, uh
near near where the actual sitethat he that he was shot three
times by Igar Amir.
Um and it you know, it's verymuch in the discourse now,

(59:19):
again, in a amongst certainkinds of Israelis, we have to be
we have to be kind of carefulwith how we with how we portray
things.
Uh obviously we have our owncommunities and our own biases,
but but no, I think the factthat it was a a major milestone
anniversary, 30 years, I thinkdid play a big part in it.
The fact that uh we just comeout of two years of terrible war

(59:41):
and uh almost three years ofthis terrible government and
likely heading into an electionyear or definitely heading into
an election year.
I think all of that brought upfond memories of Robin himself
as a leader, as a man, um, youknow, leaving aside the actual
policies, just the integrity ofthe man, the example, the
person.
An example that he that he setfor the country.

(01:00:02):
And you look around now at thepolitical establishments.
I mean, we talked about itearlier, but just political
establishment from the primeminister on down.
And it's it's it's a joke.
Um, you know, again, 30 yearsis a long time, so we can't kind
of romanticize the past.
Uh because uh Israeli politicswas was still Israeli politics

(01:00:23):
30 years ago, trust me.
But uh Rabbi himself was aunique historical figure, again,
a real man, so flawed in someways, but really uh a figure of
world historical importance.
And when he when he wasassassinated, uh, I personally
believe it was a major turningpoint for the country, um, a
massive turning point for thecountry.

(01:00:43):
Um, I know it was a massiveturning point for me.
Um, I was 14 years old, and uh,as Neri Zilbert, there was a
before and after, right?
Before November 4th, 1995, uhNeri Zilbert didn't did not
really care about politics,didn't follow it that closely.
Uh, the very next day, it wasuh front and center in my mind

(01:01:04):
and has been pretty much everyday for the past 30 years, uh on
some level, in one way oranother.
Uh so it was a major turningpoint in my life, a major
turning point for the country,I'd argue for the worse.
Um and we're kind of dealingwith the ramifications of that
assassination still, uh, notleast because the person who

(01:01:26):
became prime minister afterRabin in in the election of uh
spring of 1996 was BenjaminNetanyahu.
And um now almost three threedecades later, he he is still a
prime minister, notconsecutively, but he's still
leading the country.
So, you know, by definition, uhit is still with us.
It is still with us.

(01:01:47):
And um, you know, I think thelessons of Robbie's
assassination, yes, and by theway, there was a very good
speech by opposition leaderYayel Lapid about that, that you
know, it wasn't only a man thatwas killed on that terrible
night, Saturday night in TelAviv, but also an idea that Igal
Amir was trying to kill, anddid a pretty good job of you

(01:02:09):
know, uh, if not killing itoutright, then severely,
severely injuring it.
Uh, and it's up to the currentgeneration of Israelis to um uh
repair and mend the idea thatwas injured uh 30 years ago and
put Israel back on the rightcourse.
Um, it's up to the Israelipublic.
You know, just like the votersof New York City will um decide

(01:02:31):
the fate of this great city uhfor the next four years at
least, uh whenever Israel goesto the polls in the coming 12
months, they will have toactually take matters into their
own hands.

Shanie (01:02:43):
So here's hoping we have a future that rejects the sort
of incitement and division andhatred that directly led to the
assassination of Itzhak Rabinand instead look towards a more
hopeful vision for Israel andthe Jewish people.

Neri (01:02:57):
Absolutely.
And um, you know, there was uhand just a final point, you
know, obviously there was uh thepush for peace and the need for
peace that Rabin was waspromoting and cost him his life.
There was um the push fordemocracy, right?
A more liberal Israel, youknow, the the literal uh slogan
of that um of that rally thatSaturday night was yes to peace,

(01:03:21):
no to violence, right?
And violence not only physical,but also just um verbal,
political violence.
That was a literal slogan.
Uh and if you go back and youwatch Robbie's interviews in the
months leading up to hisassassination, to his death, um,
the one word that he used morethan well, more than anything

(01:03:44):
other than maybe peace was uhhypocrisy.
And he was saying the leader ofthe opposition is a hypocrite
because he knows better and yetis saying the opposite and is
inciting his followers and hispolitical supporters um against
the government, against the thepush that was being promoted by

(01:04:05):
the by the government, up to, Imean, you know, Robin couldn't
have known it, but it it it youknow it paved the way, shall we
say.
It loosened the guardrails andled up to the terrible night of
November 4th, 1995.
So hypocrisy um was the whatthe was the major charge of
robbing uh vis-a-vis BenjaminAtanyahu.

(01:04:26):
Thirty years later, not muchhas changed.

Shanie (01:04:33):
Thanks, Nari.

Neri (01:04:34):
Take care, Shiny.
Good to be with you in NewYork.

unknown (01:04:36):
Bye.