January 31, 2024 • 62 mins
In the latest installment of the Echo Podcast, Pastor Dan Sinkhorn and Adrienne Tarullo from Shiloh Church of Jasper, Indiana, take listeners on a profound journey into the essence of Christian faith in contemporary times. This insightful episode explores the allure and danger of counterfeit Christianity, the spiritual confusion prevalent in society, and encouragingly suggests a revival of authentic faith.
Drawing fascinating parallels between the evolution of monetary anti-counterfeit technology and the church, the conversation ultimately encourages Christians to vigilant scrutiny of their practices against the gold standard of the Bible to ensure genuine faith. It also highlights the empowerment and growth that embracing personal vulnerability can bring in one's spiritual journey.
The episode further illuminates a critical takeaway - the concept of the church as a gathering that transcends physical locations. It promotes a view of community that extends beyond the walls of a traditional church into more unconventional spaces. The conversation intrigues with its emphasis on humility, acceptance, and true fellowship, nudging listeners to see church as a place where they truly belong.
Listen to 'Diving into Authentic Christianity: Counteracting Counterfeit Faith on Echo Podcast--22 to unravel a fresh perspective on the essence of Christianity. This thought-provoking episode will leave you contemplating your faith journey and inspire you to seek and establish a deeply personal relationship with God.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:16):
Hi, welcome to the Echo Podcast, where we discuss how our hearts and minds can
be an echo of God's heart and mind and what that even means in this world.
We're Pastor Dan Sinkhorn and Adrienne Tarullo from Shiloh Church of Jasper,
Indiana, and we're going pulpit to podcast.
So, Pastor Dan, last Sunday, you had another great sermon, by the way,
(00:37):
and you discussed basically just a lot of things,
but what stood out to me most was was this like cast of characters that you talked about.
And again, coming from the Insurgents book by Frank Viola. I always want to say Viola.
I don't know why. I'm sure he gets that a lot. I'm sure. Yeah.
(00:58):
He'll probably be all right. Sorry, Frank. Viola. I've been doing better.
Anyway, so you talked about these casts of characters, and I was panning through
the sermon notes, and I loved how with each story that you told of the people from the New Testament,
you showed how each
(01:20):
story reveals something about who Jesus is and about how this cast of characters
are people who are marginalized or embarrassed or or cast out from society,
and Jesus loves them.
So, it's a great example of how Jesus loves these people and how we should love them too.
(01:45):
And I think that flowed beautifully from last week's Echo podcast when we talked
about beauty and how beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
And I posed the question, how beautiful are you in God's eyes?
And you beautifully answered it, right, with these stories.
And it's not you, it's Jesus, right? Jesus is answering the question, but you taught us.
(02:09):
Well, I was talking with our coworker, Barbara, earlier today,
and along a similar vein, I was just saying, truth is truth.
It doesn't really matter who says it.
And you and I talk talk a lot about the harmony and resonance of the Holy Spirit.
And when the Spirit's talking, truth is what you hear. The Spirit's talking, it's truth and love.
(02:35):
And if I happen to be the instrument or the oracle or whatever you want to call
it, so be it. That's my goal.
I mean, as a pastor and a preacher, I hope and pray that God speaks through me.
But it would be really bad if he spoke through me and I thought I did that,
(02:56):
you know? And so I try really hard to give him all the honor and glory and not
in some false humility, you know, because you hear that a lot,
I'm afraid, in our business.
But yeah, you know, credit goes to, well, Frank, for one thing,
because he spoke in his book,
the cast of characters illustration, and I simply took that forward and spoke it in my own way.
(03:21):
So God worked through Frank, and then I used Frank's words, and he worked through
me so that God got the word across one way or another.
So, you know. Yeah. And when you say you spoke it in your own way,
I think you really took it to a next level in the sermon this past weekend by
quite literally speaking of your own story and your own journey and how you
(03:45):
can relate to these characters.
And if I may, why did you decide to go in that direction?
I do think it was very impactful. I think a lot of people appreciated your candor
and just openness. this. Well, thank you.
I don't know. I feel like these last couple of years have changed me a lot.
(04:07):
I suppose they have everybody.
And as I tend to do, and it seems like every week I start by saying,
as I tend to do, which I just overthink things a lot of times.
And so I think about what I'm saying and why I say it and how consistent it is and all that.
But at the end of of the day, I've realized that maybe because of where I am
(04:32):
in my life in this aging process,
maybe because I've been profoundly affected and afflicted by all the same conditions
that have gotten everybody in the last few years.
And maybe there's a spiritual maturity that's awakening, Because I don't think
anybody's ever done cooking in the sense that the Holy Spirit is sanctifying us.
(04:58):
If sanctification is a process of preparing you, then we're never done cooking,
not until the Lord says so.
And so all that to say, I don't know.
I can't really name one thing. All I can say is that I've become a lot more
fearless at this point in my life than I think I've ever been.
(05:22):
And it's been out of necessity to a certain extent because quite honestly,
the last couple of years, I've reached a point of just being tired of being
wounded for doing my job the best I can.
And I don't want to sound like I'm feeling sorry for myself.
You know, there's all kinds of people out there defending pastors,
(05:44):
mostly pastors, but there are a few people out there who actually think their
pastors get mistreated or whatever.
But church people, what I think is happening is I think that our church here
at Shiloh and many similar churches with similar people and similar dynamics
are going through this, too.
(06:05):
I just don't know it, you know, but I believe it. I think we're all awakening
to the idea that there is something radically flawed about the way we've been
doing church for the last several decades,
maybe longer, maybe for the last 50 to 100 years.
Because I feel like around this time, 100 years ago, there was this shift towards
(06:32):
something called the social gospel.
And there was a guy around a hundred years ago named Rosen Bush,
who, who kind of sort of gave voice to this social gospel movement.
And, and he was just a catalyst really for something.
And this is so easy for me to go off on a tangent.
(06:54):
And I don't want to do that or stay on target, but you, you know,
you, what I'm realizing is, is that 100 years ago, people came out of World War I disillusioned.
Those who fought that war and lived it in Europe came out of it disillusioned
because they didn't know that humanity had the capacity to kill and destroy
(07:20):
on a level as great as that.
You know what I mean? They saw something They thought they couldn't have imagined,
you know, they, they gas.
You know, poison gas and, and just things like that, like could not have conceived
of a war on that scale, global war, you know?
(07:41):
Okay. So, so they come out of that and that's where we get guys like CS Lewis
and J R R Tolkien, you know, they're veterans of that war.
Or Chesterton has some imaginative characters he's created that are built around
their war experience in World War I.
And, you know, Britain felt that war more acutely than America can imagine,
(08:05):
which is why they still wear poppies to this day around what we call Veterans Day.
But bottom line is that society was really jaded.
And then we had this pandemic 100 years ago that was far more severe and shockingly
violent than the one we went through a few years ago. And all this happened 100 years ago.
(08:31):
And then World War I Part II starts, you know, or the Great War Part II. World War II happens.
And our capacity for destruction.
Exponentially increases over
the unimaginable destruction and death that happened in World War I, okay?
So now we're already halfway through the century. We're already halfway here where we are now.
(08:57):
And we've seen nuclear weapons, we've seen death camps that killed tens of millions
of people in a mechanical, like, death factory kind of way.
We see maniacal leaders with evil capacity beyond our comprehension,
and we're just halfway to where we are now.
(09:18):
And so, all of that to say, no wonder people started losing faith in God as
they understood God, because it looked like the the devil was winning.
And so we've ended up reaching a point then where right after World War II, there's peace.
And here in America, we think we did that.
(09:42):
Because unlike the rest of the world, our little chunk of land called North
America is pretty much unscathed.
We haven't seen our cities destroyed and bombed. We haven't seen death camps in our forests.
We haven't seen invading forces coming across, you know, leaving tracks and
(10:05):
tanks and munitions and mines, and we haven't experienced any of that.
And our economy immediately takes off as soon as the war is over.
And so naturally, all the Christians go around going, see, God favors us.
We're America, and we're better than everybody else.
That's why we're prospering and thriving, because because we are better.
(10:30):
I don't even know whether that's wrong in itself, but it is wrong when it becomes pride.
Because one of the things we did as Americans immediately after World War II
was over is we went back and we dusted our enemies off and cleaned them up and
helped them out. It was very Christian.
(10:53):
You know, we beat them, and then we said, now that you've stopped this insanity,
let's work together to make a better world.
I mean, we really were a pretty decent country in those days,
trying to do the right thing.
But eventually it started jading us and twisting us.
And the next thing you know, it's the 60s, and this jaded, twisted sort of thing
(11:16):
is starting to take hold. and that's where we get this generation that,
well, was running things up until recently because, you know, that was their turn.
And look how our society got decadent and got, you know, turned from God and
become a wicked world in so many ways.
And all of this brings us to the end of the century, and now you and I are living
(11:41):
into another century, and we're seeing in so many ways the repeat of what happened
100 years earlier. Only one thing's changed.
Instead of turning from God, I think our country and a lot of its people are
turning to God, but they're turning away from religion.
They're turning away from the false prophets of Christianity.
(12:01):
They're turning away from a lot of the people who have perpetuated a counterfeit Christianity.
Christianity, you know, we hadn't talked about this a lot lately,
but counterfeit is what Satan specializes in.
He creates a tree that looks like the tree of life, but it isn't the tree of
life. It's a really convincing duplicate.
(12:24):
When you think in terms of counterfeit, the word counterfeit is most often used
for us in regard to fake money.
You know, well, counterfeit money that isn't very very convincing doesn't get very far.
I, I can't go into the restaurant with a black and white photocopy of a $20
bill and say, here, this is money. You know, they're going to look at that and go, that's crap.
(12:45):
You know, what are you really trying to pull here? You know?
Yeah. And, and yet if I do make something really convincing, they might take it.
And I believe that America and Christians in this country and a lot of the free world,
they've been buying a counterfeit version of Christianity for a long time,
(13:06):
and now they don't even know that what they've been spending isn't real currency.
And it's the people who walked away from that false Christianity,
that fake Christianity.
They walked away from it a long time ago, and then their sons and daughters
came back, And they, they can see as plain as day that that's not real.
(13:30):
You know what I mean? Like they, they look at what, you know,
maybe, maybe one way to illustrate this is that, that even when you were young,
you know, and I got a few years on you, but even when you were young,
money, wasn't the same as it is now.
There have been so many new technologies introduced into our currency in the
last 20 years or so in your lifetime.
(13:52):
Time i know you're more than 20 but i mean you know the last 20
years or so currency's been upgraded substantially with
all kinds of new tricks and and traits to keep it from being duplicated and
and falsified so so that's the only money you know the hundred dollar bill you
grew up with isn't the same hundred dollar bill i grew up with in fact we didn't
use a lot of hundred dollar bills when i was a kid because the 20 got the work
(14:15):
got the job done well you know because of the economy.
But I'm just saying the $20 bill, the $5 bill that I spent when I was your age
didn't look the same as the one you spent.
They were basically the same, but yours has got technology built into it and
it's got all kinds of wild and crazy stuff in it that you're used to.
So if I gave you a counterfeit of the $20 bill that I saved from when I was
(14:42):
25 years old, or I gave you the $25 bill that I had when I was 25 years old.
If I had a $20 bill and I gave it to you when I was 25, this is confusing.
Lots of numbers. I should have picked a different denomination.
If I found an envelope in my closet and I had $20 bills in there from when I
was your age or younger, and I gave it to you, you'd go, is that real?
(15:07):
And then you'd look at it and you'd go, well, yeah, I think it's real.
And I would say, yeah, it's real money. It's just old, real money.
But then if I found in that envelope that somebody had slipped me a few counterfeits,
you'd spot it in a second.
And you'd say, why couldn't you see that? You know what I mean?
(15:28):
Because you're conditioned by your world to recognize the counterfeits from
my world because that counterfeit thing has become a part of your world.
Does that make sense the way I'm trying to explain that? I think so.
You know, I didn't – if I keep following that line of thought,
(15:48):
the counterfeit currency thing, What I'm trying to say is that our money wasn't
as sophisticated in the way that it was made.
I mean, literally, the way a $20 bill was made in 1980 when I graduated from
high school is so far and away different from the way a $20 bill is made now.
Because now it's made with all kinds of anti-counterfeiting technology that didn't exist then.
(16:14):
So you might look at the $20 bill from 1980 and say, well, that looks like play money.
But you'd know that it wasn't because, well, for one thing, play money is made with paper.
And even back when I was, you know, in high school, money was made with more than paper.
It was made with cloth and, you know, it had a certain texture to it that you knew made it real.
(16:40):
But I think if I had a 45-year-old counterfeit 20, you'd spot it so fast.
And you'd say, well, why did you hang on to that for the last 45 years?
Didn't you know that was fake?
Well, no. Or I wouldn't have kept it.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think people who have not been immersed
(17:03):
in Christianity for the last 40 or 50 years are more readily recognized phony
Christianity than the Christians do.
That's my point. Yeah. My point is that those of us who have been spending and
exchanging currency that is counterfeit all these years don't know how to spot counterfeit.
(17:29):
But those who have never handled our counterfeit currency, they come in and
they look at it and immediately recognize that it's counterfeit.
And I think that's a good thing. I think we're in a good place right now.
I just, you know, kind of like our church, I think there's a revival happening
in our church. I think amazing things are happening in our church.
(17:49):
I just wish it was happening a little faster.
You know, I told our friend Barbara this morning, because we were talking about
some things that were exciting, that I'm seeing all kinds of change.
All the things I'd hoped for are happening. happening what i'm realizing is
it's not a problem of speed it's a problem of distance,
all this time i thought we just weren't going fast enough but
(18:11):
it turns out we're going really fast you know our hair's on fire we're going
so fast but the problem is that i didn't estimate how far we had to go correctly
yeah so all this time i thought we were just not going fast enough but it turns
out we're going plenty fast it's just that we got a lot further to go than I thought.
And so, if you see the correlation,
(18:35):
because the problem is a lot of these things make sense in my head,
but when I try to explain them, maybe they don't come out as clearly as I hope,
is you asked me why I was willing to be so vulnerable and put myself out there.
And my answer to the question is, I think that the world is changing for Christians
(18:55):
right now, And it's not all bad.
It's not. In fact, I think the counterfeit Christianity that we bought into
for the last 50 or 60 years or more,
I think that the consequence of this whole evangelicalism and a lot of other
isms around church and everything,
I think one of the things that's happened is that our counterfeit Garden of
(19:22):
Eden looks very enticing.
But it's still counterfeit, you know, and, and I see it and,
and I see people walking right towards the brink and getting ready to just step off the ledge.
And, and it's, it's like, there's this mirage that they've been walking towards all this time.
(19:45):
That's the promised land mirage. It's the garden of Eden mirage.
And they've been walking towards it.
And I see these people walking right towards it.
And I see the abyss on the other side of the mirage.
And, and it's like, stop, I'm screaming at them.
Stop, stop before it's too late, you know, stop. stop.
(20:07):
And at this point, I'm so desperate to find a way to get them to stop that I'm
willing to throw myself in front of them and let them walk over me while I try.
I'm saying that I'll be vulnerable in a way that I've never thought I could
be because this is another way that I'm trying to scream at them, stop.
You're walking into the abyss. You're walking towards a mirage. you've got to stop.
(20:31):
You've got to recognize that this is the devil at his best.
He's created an image of Eden. He's created an image of the church.
He's created a counterfeit to the tree of life, and he has tricked you yet again
into going right towards it.
And I'm just saying, and this cast of characters that Jesus embraced were all
(20:58):
people who were countercultural.
He was the chief counterculturalist, and he was embracing the counterculture
because he was watching the religious authorities, the Pharisees,
the people of God, the ones who had the way, the keys to the kingdom.
They had it, and they were walking towards a mirage. They were walking towards certain destruction.
(21:21):
And I mean, if you, you know, because I can't help mixing history and metaphor.
I mean, if you look at what happened to the people who killed Jesus,
who punished his followers, who tried to suppress him,
70 years later, their temple and their city and their their very lives were
(21:45):
destroyed and remained nothing but dust and ruin for hundreds and hundreds of years.
I mean, he told them they were walking towards a mirage and they were getting
ready to step into the abyss. He told them.
His apostles saw it clearly because he took the blinders off their eyes like he did with Paul.
(22:09):
Paul was a religious Pharisee who who was walking towards the abyss,
walking towards a mirage in an abyss.
His blinders have fallen away. The scales on his eyes fall away,
and suddenly he sees things the way they really are.
That's truth and metaphor in the story for what a religious person like him
(22:32):
was about and what they did.
And we're still there now. And so for me,
it feels like my calling is not so much to, I don't know, violently oppose the
people who are foolishly walking towards their own destruction, but to plead with them.
And if it gets their attention because I'm willing to say things about myself
(22:56):
that would make them more readily relate with the trustworthy nature of my message.
You know, why would you believe me if I don't say to you, I know where you've been,
I've been there too, but I've seen where it goes, and I'm going this way now,
and I need you to come with me before you go too far and end up in a place you
(23:19):
can't get back from, you know?
Like, that's what I was doing when I said things in the sermon that were,
you know, revelatory about my life and my feelings.
And, you know, I've decided that the best thing I can do at this point in my
life is embrace who I am and let that person be God's messenger instead of trying
(23:43):
to craft a messenger for God to use.
You know, I am this broken person who's got a disability that you can't see,
but it's as disabling and crippling as any that you can see.
I have this history that has informed how I interpret life and I've chosen a better way.
(24:06):
And that, you know, that's why I talked about like, you know,
how I raised my children.
And it was a deliberate attempt to try to raise better children and raise,
not better children, but raise them a better way.
And to give them a better life and better feelings about themselves and the world and everything.
And, you know, to just kind of hit the reset button for my family tree.
(24:29):
And to say, this branch has been cut away from the unhealthy trunk tree.
And it's been grafted to a healthier trunk. And since I'm the branch that got
cut away and grafted, I have a wound that will never go away.
I have a worn spot.
I have a scar.
(24:50):
I have this part of me that's still wounded. But from me, something entirely
new and better has emerged because I was willing to suffer for the sake of the
ones that will follow me.
You know, and I think being vulnerable in that way and explaining to people
(25:10):
in that way that I can look at a person in Jesus's sphere when he's walking
the earth and see myself in all of those characters.
I can see myself as the woman at the well who's made mistakes that have shamed
me to the extent that I don't want to be around people who remember me when I was that stupid.
But, you know, I can identify with the man who's been cast out of his sphere
(25:36):
of, of society and his family doesn't even want anything to do with him because
they feel that his disability is a sign of weakness.
And more than that, it's a sign that they failed somehow and he failed somehow.
And so looking at his crippled body makes them think that they're failures and
he's a failure and that's embarrassing and shaming.
(25:57):
But his friends just see this guy they really love.
And they think Jesus can help him, and they're willing to do what his family
wouldn't do, which is cheat to get him at the head of the line with Jesus so
he could be healed, you know, because they loved him that much,
you know, and I can relate to that.
I can relate to that, you know. And so every time I look at this cast of characters
(26:20):
that Jesus surrounded himself with, I see something about them that I can relate
to, and I think that's the point.
I am Peter, you know, oh, many people like to claim that they're Peter and they
like to identify with Peter and Peter's kind of like Jimmy Stewart or who's
a more modern version of the every man kind of guy that Tom Hanks,
(26:43):
you know, he's, he's goofy and the Disney cartoons, you know, he's every man. man.
Peter is the guy we can all relate to. I know, you know, it's a man and,
you know, he certainly was a man's man.
But there are probably women in the Bible that would be like most women can relate to.
But the point that I wish to make is that he surrounds himself with these characters
(27:07):
because they're people that we can all relate to.
And he's saying, it's you I I came for.
That's why I like to tell people, just keep in mind that when he was hanging
on the cross, he was thinking of you.
And I believe that's literally true, because he has that timeless capacity as
God in the flesh to be thinking of you.
(27:30):
Even before he met you, even before you were born, even before you were conceived,
he's still on the cross thinking of you.
And that's the point, you know
so anyway did i kind of
answer that question i think you did i think
you did why was i making myself vulnerable in that
particular way yeah that's what i thought i was answering yeah and you did i
(27:55):
want to back up to a few subject topics ago because i made a weird face listener
you don't know that but i made a weird face because it was it was not thank
you for that that, though.
So, when you were talking about the abyss and people walking towards this mirage
or towards this abyss... I remembered the face. Yes. So...
(28:19):
In the youth group, we have participated in something called Dare to Share Live the past two years.
And last year, so, okay, 2022 in November, that was literally the drama that
they did in the Dare to Share thing.
Like, to a T, the girl described seeing a line of people, basically zombies,
(28:45):
just walking walking mindlessly towards this abyss.
And she sees this happening. And these people are just falling off a cliff to their death.
And they have no idea because they're just mindlessly following.
She sees this. She's freaking out. She's yelling at them. She's trying to shake
them saying, wake up, wake up. This is not the path.
Basically, this is not the path to righteousness. This is the counterfeit that
(29:08):
you're just mindlessly following.
She runs back into her church. She tells the church and they just sit there
and they don't do anything. And so it was a really cool metaphor.
But I'm weirdly smiling as you're telling the story because there's a sign of
us walking in the spirit.
Right. And you had no idea. I didn't tell you that was a drama at all.
(29:29):
And even if I did, I mean, it probably would have forgotten if it were me.
That was a year and a half ago.
Where have I heard this story before? She thought. I'm like,
what? Wait a minute. He wasn't there.
And so that was just such a cool moment. And I think if we're talking about
the counterfeit, and we're talking about the counterfeit of Christ,
(29:50):
there are moments where...
Kind of like the dollar bill or the $20 bill. There are certain characteristics
in that bill that make you know that it's not the counterfeit.
And I think when we're in church and we're walking in the spirit,
there are signs that tell us that this is not the counterfeit.
And so I just kind of wanted to go back to that topic for a second,
(30:12):
because there are countless times here at Shiloh where I just know this is not the counterfeit.
And there are moments like that, or a couple weeks ago with the Lion of Judah reference.
And I think it's important for people who are seeking Christ to truly know what
(30:34):
are the signs that this is a true $20 bill.
And so I think one of those signs is when you connect with people on such a
spiritual level that is entirely unplanned, that can only mean that you're walking in the Spirit together.
And I know that you and I have those moments all the time, and I hear from other
(30:57):
people who are leading other Bible studies and things that that's happening to them too.
And so I think that's one sign. Can you think of other signs that might be helpful?
Pete Yeah, in fact, I think there's a little bit of resonance happening here
in the Shiloh office on a Wednesday because,
(31:17):
you know, I was talking with Barbara this morning, who is a little bit older than I am,
and she is actively involved in Bible study and things like that with people
who are considered older members of our congregation,
and among them are some people who are really awakening and feeling the movement
(31:39):
of the Spirit, and they've talked to me, and they've talked to each other,
and then she's told me about it, right?
So all that to say that I hear these moments of resonance where we're in harmony or we're in sync,
and those, as you say, I am certain are the signs of the Holy Spirit,
because Because there's nothing else that can explain, you know,
(32:02):
how pieces and parts that are so far distant can interact with each other on
such a complex level, you know.
And as we, you and I were talking in your office earlier, you know,
the devil, he delights in chaos, which means he's not going to cause those kinds
of interconnectedness to happen. He's going to do everything he can to disrupt them.
(32:24):
So, it has to be the Holy Spirit. It has to be a good...
And with that being said, if you're looking for those signs, listen for the harmony.
You know, hear the way these things resonate with each other.
Notice that you're hearing something.
(32:46):
Well, like I was telling you, I was watching this preview for an Angel Studios
movie, and the devil is the character in this story that's played by an actor
who's actually a very serious as a devout Christian.
And this Christian man is portraying the devil so magnificently.
(33:07):
And in this preview of this movie, at one point, he's being called out by a
good person as, you're Satan, aren't you?
And he doesn't deny it, but he basically says, and chaos is what I I love to create.
And my wife looked at me and she said, isn't that what you say all the time?
(33:29):
And I said, that's resonance.
It's not like they were listening to my sermon way out there in Hollywood and
said, hey, that's a good idea.
Let's put it in the script for this movie. It's just truth.
It's just truth. It exists because it's real and true, and it's just waiting for you to discover it.
So if you're trying to figure out how to find the truth, If you're trying to
(33:53):
figure out how to hear the harmony that comes from the Spirit or the heart and
mind of God, it's just waiting to be discovered.
It's not hidden from you. It's not hidden.
It's just that you've got to go looking for it.
So to bring it down to earth, one of the things that Adrian and I both hope
(34:14):
for desperately with this podcast is that it's reaching people who don't go to church,
that it's reaching people who aren't members at Shiloh.
We're glad our Shiloh friends are listening. And quite honestly,
a lot of what we say on this podcast is probably very difficult for our Shiloh
friends, at least some of them.
(34:35):
And some of what we talk about on this is probably very difficult for people
who go to other churches in this community and they go, see,
that's what I told you about those Shiloh people.
The next thing you're going to hear is they're wrestling with snakes in their
worship service, right?
You know, and whatever. You know, I don't care.
(34:56):
We decided to start doing this podcast because we wanted to be able to say things.
That we say all the time anyway, but they don't get in sermons.
They don't get heard by the people who never go to a Sunday school class or
never attend one of my Wednesday night roundtable discussions.
And so there's plenty of time and opportunity for you to hear the kinds of thoughts
(35:20):
that Adrian and I express, but you got to go look and you have to find it.
I don't know how to tell How do I tell someone who's not listening to this podcast
to listen to this podcast?
You know, I mean, you tell them, friends, if you're listening and you're saying,
I wish Fred could hear this, because whenever Fred is talking about church,
(35:42):
he's always talking about those hypocrites and those this and those that. And Fred's not wrong.
It's just that he might be wrong about us. He might realize if he listened to
something like this that Christians aren't all a bunch of old school,
dyed-in-the-wool, personally,
my problem, people who are married to a counterfeit version of Christianity.
(36:07):
They're not all like that, Fred. Listen. Listen, please.
Go seek the truth, and you will find it. that there are people out there who
are talking about Christianity in a way that you've never heard before.
There are people who go to church who are doing Christianity in a way you've never seen before.
(36:28):
And they're not all like whatever it is you've imagined it to be.
But listen, I'll be the first to acknowledge that there's plenty of corrupt
Christianity out there.
There are plenty of people going to church. Right.
Who are doing it in a way that is unfortunately a slow walk over the abyss,
(36:49):
over the edge into the abyss.
There are lots and lots of people going to church and their lives are molded
around this habit of going to church, molded around these religious habits.
In a couple of weeks, they're going to start eating fish on Fridays,
even if they're not Catholic, because somehow that makes them feel like they're being good Christians.
(37:10):
And it's like, no, it doesn't. It doesn't even matter.
It doesn't even matter. None of it matters.
If you don't know why, or if you've managed to recite an answer to why that
is basically, you know, like the standard answer that you've been taught to
give when people criticize you for such things,
(37:32):
you're probably just mindlessly walking towards the edge of the abyss,
and you can't see what it is because you're looking at an illusion.
Or a delusion that is made up in your own mind.
I mean, this is harsh, but I'm just leveling with people.
If you can't answer honestly what motivates you to have this religious activity
(37:56):
in your life that is supposedly about Jesus,
but you really don't know Jesus, Jesus, if you're not radically in love with
Jesus because his beauty has.
Just stunned you into submission. That's the whole point of these last two weeks of sermons.
(38:17):
This is the whole point of Frank's chapter in his book, Insurgence,
Reclaiming the, Recapturing or Reclaiming the Kingdom of, the Gospel of the Kingdom.
My mind's going ahead of my mouth, too.
Reclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom. Thank you very much. You're very welcome.
You know, the book's sitting on my desk.
It's right over here behind me, and I love the author and I love the book and
(38:38):
he's my friend, he's my brother in Christ, but I can't seem to get the title
right right this minute. It's okay, I can't get his last name right half the time.
We still love him. But the point that I wish to make is he wants you to see,
Frank wants you to see, I want you to see that if you're a Christian mindlessly
walking towards the abyss, it's because you have been ignoring the real Christ.
(39:03):
You've been walking towards something that's more appealing to you than Jesus
Christ, and it's a religion.
It's a Christianity that's comfortable and easy, and the reality is following
Jesus will get you labeled as an insurgent.
Following Jesus will make you say things on podcasts that are going to tick
(39:27):
people off, and they're going to say hateful things about you or to you. you.
Following Jesus is going to make you say something in a sermon that's way too
personal for a sermon, but you're going to do it because you want people to
love him as much as you do or more.
That's what it means to be a Christian, to love Jesus, to be madly in love with
Jesus, because his beauty is so stunningly, overwhelmingly irresistible.
(39:53):
And people People would rather just go through life walking towards a picture
of Jesus that's transparent and sitting on the edge of a cliff,
and they're going to walk through it and fall into the abyss.
Listener, did you hear it? Did you hear the true gospel? Did you hear the true love for Jesus?
(40:14):
There's a sign for you. See, we want you to know him. And we know that knowing
Christians can be a way of knowing him.
But you have to know, you have to understand what you're looking for.
I want you to look. I want you to go out there and look. I want you to go ask.
(40:37):
I'll tell you what. So Barbara and I were talking this morning because she really
likes these roundtable discussions I have on Wednesday nights.
So, I mean, if you're in the Jasper area, come over and have supper with us at five.
And then at six, we just sit around after supper and talk. How cool is that?
I mean. And then your kids can come to youth group. That's right.
Kids are going to youth group.
Yeah. Thank you for. Just do a little plug there. Yeah. Because if you hadn't
(40:58):
noticed, this Adrienne is pretty awesome, and kids love her.
And she really, really loves them, and she is helping them grow in Christ.
So it's like, basically, if you come over here and you have supper with us on
Wednesday nights at 5, and then sit around at 7 while the kids are going to
children's church or children's activities, which are really awesome,
(41:19):
and Kimberly takes good care of them.
And then you can go and do, the youth can go do things with Adrienne and her
gang. And it's just all kinds of great things to do.
But at the end of the day, there's this group of adults that sits around after
supper, after the dishes are done, and we talk about whatever.
And so Barbara and I were talking about that this morning. And I said,
(41:40):
well, you know, Barbara,
I'm starting to think that the people out there who are hungry
for truth are more desperate to have a conversation like that than they are
to take a class or watch a video with a really cool pastor with spiky hair and
an untucked shirt and props and lights and smoke machines.
(42:01):
You know, like, they just want to talk to somebody that looks like they really
believe this, that they're willing to bet their life on it, that they're willing
to bet their eternal soul on it.
I think people are looking for that. Yeah.
And I think that...
More than anything, the answer to your question is, you know,
(42:24):
when you ask, like, what should they do?
What should they look for? How do they spot the counterfeits? All that.
Start talking to people. The one thing you can't do is ignore Christians and
ignore churches because you think there's never going to be anything relevant coming from them.
Because unfortunately, that's like saying, I want to get well,
(42:45):
but I hate hospitals, so I'm not going anywhere near a hospital.
Hospital and maybe that stems from the fact that
every time you've been to the hospital it's been a big waste of time and
money and they really didn't do you any good but sooner or later you're going
to need that kind of help and there will be a moment when you actually get good
help so by the way that was just an illustration i don't really feel that way
(43:09):
about hospitals or encourage anybody anybody to feel that way.
But, but my point is, is that, that, you know, you, you can't just whitewash
everything and say, well, I have one bad experience.
I've had 10 bad experiences, so I'm never going to have a good experience.
I get it. The more you keep sticking your finger in that hole and getting bit,
(43:33):
the less likely you're ever going to do that.
Again, I get that. I really do. I,
I totally understand that, that, that every time Charlie Brown agrees to let
Lucy hold the football for him, she still pulls it out and makes him fall on his back.
She, you know, it's like, like that's an old reference, but you know,
(43:55):
back in the peanuts days when Charlie Brown and Lucy would play football together,
she would always tell him she wouldn't pull the football ball away this time,
but she always pulls the football away. I get it.
But somehow I want to convince people that even though you may have had a bad
experience with churches many times, you could develop a test.
(44:17):
And maybe somehow we're doing that. Like somehow we're helping you develop a test.
That would be one of the great outcomes that we could take away from making
this podcast is maybe I haven't actually told you exactly what to look for,
but you're You're hearing things that really intrigue you.
And so from that, you can develop a test.
I have certain tests that I use with people.
(44:41):
I'm unfortunately very suspicious of other clergy, and I probably shouldn't be as suspicious as I am.
But like everyone else in the world, I've had more than enough negative experiences
to be highly distrusting.
And so I just have certain things that I listen for, some of them good, some of them bad.
(45:04):
I listen for the harmony and the resonance of the Holy Spirit,
but I also listen for for the signs of pride and angst and stuff like that, you know?
And so I guess what I would say to the people out there trying to find the truth
and love and, and, you know, it's, yes, you got to go to church.
Not, not that church is the only way, but you know, if you're trying to find something, you know,
(45:32):
I want to make an illustration because I can't just seem to say this the way
I want to, but you know, if you're, if you're looking for grass in the forest,
then you're going to have to spend a lot of time walking around the forest looking for some grass.
On the other hand, if you go where grass grows, like my front yard or the park
or whatever, then you say, yeah, but I'm looking for four-leaf clover.
(45:57):
Okay. And that's still not a very good illustration,
but I'm just saying that you're It's still more likely to hear Christian truth
and love where Christians gather because there are many Christians who hang
out with other Christians, even if they know that the Christians are hanging
out with don't seem to get it.
(46:18):
Because who would you rather hang out with? People who like the same things
you like and do the same things you do, but maybe don't appreciate it to the
extent that you do, you know?
I mean, you like a certain kind of music. You like being around people who like
that. But then when they start talking like they don't.
Football, there's a good one. You know, now that all the Swifties are into football,
(46:40):
you can go to a bar or a pub or something and you can listen to people talking about football.
And there are some that know the game.
And they know the history and the nuance of football, but then there's some
Swifties over there, you know, drinking fruity cocktails, watching the game,
and they don't know anything.
They just know that the camera's going to pan to Taylor at some point. Yep. Right?
(47:05):
And yet you'd still rather be in the football bar than not.
You know what I mean? Because, you know, I hope that illustration somehow helps.
It's like, please, give it a try. So in that metaphor, is the bar church?
Well, it could be. Okay. I think an awful lot of good Christianity happens in bars.
(47:26):
Sure. I really do. I think that people find fellowship, acceptance.
I've read something recently that I can't recall where or what exactly the wording
was, but it was something to the effect of that it shouldn't surprise you that
people go to church church and be turned away,
treated like outcasts, you know, stared at for not fitting in, you,
(47:52):
chided and mistreated because they don't know the rules that are just sort of
hidden that everybody else knows.
And yet that same person can go to the bar and they'll be accepted,
you know, they'll be welcome, you know.
And so, yeah, there's a lot of good ministry that happens in bars.
It's just not in the name of Jesus, but it looks an awful lot like good Christianity.
(48:15):
And I often think that church would be a lot more fun if people would behave
like they do at bars, without the drunkenness and the debauchery that comes
with drunkenness. Yeah. You know?
What you said reminds me of someone newer to the Shiloh family who came in recently,
and she joined one of our Wednesday night classes.
(48:36):
And she asked, she said, all right, y'all, tell me the rules.
Like, I'm in, but I want to know the rules. I don't want to do anything wrong.
I don't want to mess up, you know? And I can understand. It hurts.
I can understand where she's coming from, because I've been there too.
It does. But like, if you're concerned about fitting some mold or following
(48:59):
some rules, throw all of that out the window and just walk in the door.
I mean, that's truly her. Thankfully, someone I know very well was in that class
with her and they were like, don't worry about it. We just love Jesus. Yeah.
Just don't stress so much about it. I mean, I know everybody in this congregation.
(49:21):
Some of them have even complained that they don't think I know them, but they're wrong.
I know them. And I'm sure that if you got into a conversation with some of them,
you'd have the same negative experience that you expected.
Because they've been going here a long time, and they're not going to change
just because there's one radical pastor.
(49:41):
They've had many pastors. They've seen many come and go. And I've heard it all.
Sure. and and the thing is is i don't know anybody in this church that i don't love,
and don't like on a certain level but i do know some who they're just stuck
and they're just going to do what they do and they're probably more blind to
(50:04):
it than anyone around them,
and to a certain extent you just kind of feel sorry for them and you know i
describe myself is being disabled in certain ways that are not seen but they're
there and you know what there's a lot of people like that in church you remember
this was it this Sunday or the previous Sunday that I said I look out at the
congregation and I see sick people.
(50:26):
Yeah. You know? And out of context, it would have sounded horrible for the pastor
to stand up there, but they all understood.
I didn't see anybody going, what did he just say? They all were with me because
I had built up to that point by saying, we need to understand that the church
is a place where soul-sick people go to get well, you know?
(50:49):
And that that's what it is at its best.
And I described myself as the chief practitioner at this hospital for the soul,
but I also said that I'm the head inmate in the asylum,
that I didn't describe myself as someone who was superior to everybody else,
and that's why I was qualified to help heal.
(51:11):
I'm a walking wounded myself.
I'm a head inmate in the asylum. I'm a broken, wounded person who's following
Jesus desperately because I can't help it, and I'm willing to drag you along
with me even as I limp closer to his grace.
It's like that's one of the things you look for, brothers and sisters. That's the sign.
(51:33):
You find the best way to identify a true Christian is is humility.
I think if you're trying to decide in quickest way whether you're talking to
a real Christian or not, you listen for the humility.
Because an awful lot of Christians, so-called, are vain. And they say vain things.
They judge you. You're right to turn away from someone in a church who is judgy and mean.
(51:59):
You're right to turn from them.
Shake the dust off your feet and leave them if they reject you.
Jesus said that. But when you talk to someone who's humble, when they smile
and laugh at themselves because they're not very good at remembering names and
they've already forgotten yours and you told them five minutes ago,
recognize that for what it is.
(52:21):
When they say, well, we're not used to seeing new people around here as often
as we'd like, but sure, I'm glad you're here.
You can be embarrassed or frustrated by that, or you can say,
well, here's a nice person And it's just saying the truth and,
you know, not ashamed to admit that they don't, you know, I've heard people,
I remember an incident in one of my churches years ago where a black lady came
(52:46):
to the church and it's an all white church.
And one of our members came up to her and said, well, I expect the music isn't
what you're accustomed to, but I hope you have a good time with us.
And, and I, and I remember the conversation that happened after that.
And it just happened that this lady was one of the professors that my daughter
(53:07):
went to school with, Ball State, right?
So it's really kind of funny because they had a conversation about it.
And the professor was very interested in what I thought about all of it.
And what I said was, well, there's a couple of ways you can look at it.
The lady who said that is really one of the most humble servants in the church,
and she's always taken a backseat to the big mouths who think they run everything
(53:31):
in that church. church and what she said to you was just truth.
Now, her truth was misguided because she just assumed because you were black
that you preferred different kind of music than what you would hear in this church.
And that's not racism.
That's really just a humble, ignorant person demonstrating their ignorance.
(53:52):
And her professor, to her credit, said, you know, I never thought about it that way. you know?
And nowadays somebody would say, well, that's an indication of systemic racism.
No, it's not. It's just ignorance.
And ignorance is not a crime.
Ignorance isn't a crime against humanity. It's not a crime against a race or
(54:14):
anything else. It's just ignorance.
Now, when you get knowledge, what you do with it says something about your character.
So, had they carried on their conversation, this sweet, humble lady, her name was Kathy.
If that woman had said to her, well, I can understand why you drew that conclusion,
but the truth is, is I like all kinds of music, and I might really like what I'm about to hear.
(54:39):
You know, Kathy's the kind of person that would have said, oh, good, you know? Yeah.
And my answer then is, is were you looking for a real Christian?
Because, you know, you found one. She may not be the most profoundly gifted
spiritually or the most unique,
like, you know, you can't look for some person that's like Jesus Christ in,
(55:01):
you know, second cousin once removed form, right?
You know, like, you know, you look at this person and you go,
well, I thought you'd be as close to Jesus Christ as a human being could be.
Well, I'm as close to Jesus Christ as I can be right now.
There's your sign. That's what you should be looking for, people.
If you're looking for a way to know whether you're in a church full of Christ
followers, look at the humility and see it for what it is. So it requires humility on your part.
(55:27):
So what I would say to that professor, who was a wonderful person that I have
no dispute with at all, but just for the sake of the discussion,
I'm just going to say, well, professor, you didn't exactly know how to respond to that.
So you just kind of dismissed it and she walked away and you walked away and
then you didn't come back. And, you know, like, well, some of that's on you. too.
(55:47):
If you were willing to be in a church where you're the only black person and
the first person you met said something that indicates they really don't know black people very well.
Then you had to make a decision about how to respond to that.
And that isn't about your race. That's about your character.
That's about your identity. That's about you as a human being.
(56:10):
And what I love about Christians is the really good ones, the ones that have
really accepted accepted Christ are just humble about things like that.
And they don't immediately draw on some satanic sort of nugget of chaos that's
just looking for a place to grow.
You know what I mean? Instead, they go, she's a sweet lady, but she obviously
(56:34):
doesn't know very many black people.
And then the black lady says, well, then in that case, I'm going to ask her
her name, and I'm going to talk to her.
And this could be my first friend in this church. But she didn't make that decision.
She wasn't mean. She wasn't cruel. She was a well-educated, intelligent lady
(56:55):
who just chose to take the high road and say, well, thank you for that.
But you made thoughts and decisions
in your mind that changed how you were going to go forward with this.
And you could have made other decisions. Mm-hmm. On the other hand,
(57:38):
if you just come up against somebody who's just ignorant,
but they have the humility to try.
Here's the thing. Nobody else walked up to her and talked to her except me.
And everybody in the church would go, well, that's his job. Even the guest assumed
it was just me doing my job.
So come on. If you really want to know, if you really hunger for truth,
(58:03):
you have to be prepared to do your part, and you have to be willing to search for that truth.
And when you find someone who's humble, you're on the right path. So stick with it. Yeah.
We've talked a lot of metaphors in today's episode, and I love it.
You just mentioned being on the right path, and I thought I'd end with this one last metaphor.
(58:28):
It was from one of our Shiloh family members. He told me that your sermon prompted
him to think this this past Sunday.
He said, for the first time in my life, and he's an older guy,
first time in my whole life, I could picture so clearly myself walking on this path,
and all around me, there's things trying to distract me. There's ditches on both sides.
(58:50):
They're throwing things at me. They're trying to get me to lose my sight,
but my sight is on Jesus, and I'm looking straight ahead.
And for the first time, I could just see that so clearly from Pastor Dan's sermon.
It's just amazing. I didn't get that from your sermon, but- Thank you for that. Yeah.
And he was just so moved by that. And he was like, man, I could just, he was just on and on.
(59:14):
I could just see myself walking. It was so amazing. Amazing.
And that's church, right? We should be that path that people are continuing to look to Christ.
We're just the path, right?
That's good. And in its healthiest form of church, right?
So I just wanted to share that with you and with the listeners.
(59:34):
If you're in a church and you don't have your eyes focused on Christ,
dust your feet off, walk away and find him, find the truth, because he's beautiful and he's love.
Amen amen see you
next week we went a little long today didn't we we did oops oops
maybe a two-parter i don't
(59:55):
know i don't either i wouldn't know where to split it yeah
well folks you know there's a pause button on your podcasting device you can
always pick it up and finish it later i guess well thanks for listening in real
humility i appreciate you more than you know because you you actually find some value in this.
(01:00:17):
And if you're still here at this point in this long podcast, God bless you.
Be sure to contact us and let us know how you're blessed by this. And, you know, be nice.
We're tenderhearted, but we do want to hear from you.
See ya. Bye.
Music.
Music.
(00:16):
Hi, welcome to the Echo Podcast, where we discuss how our hearts and minds can
be an echo of God's heart and mind and what that even means in this world.
We're Pastor Dan Sinkhorn and Adrienne Tarullo from Shiloh Church of Jasper,
Indiana, and we're going pulpit to podcast.
So, Pastor Dan, last Sunday, you had another great sermon, by the way,
(00:37):
and you discussed basically just a lot of things,
but what stood out to me most was was this like cast of characters that you talked about.
And again, coming from the Insurgents book by Frank Viola. I always want to say Viola.
I don't know why. I'm sure he gets that a lot. I'm sure. Yeah.
(00:58):
He'll probably be all right. Sorry, Frank. Viola. I've been doing better.
Anyway, so you talked about these casts of characters, and I was panning through
the sermon notes, and I loved how with each story that you told of the people from the New Testament,
you showed how each
(01:20):
story reveals something about who Jesus is and about how this cast of characters
are people who are marginalized or embarrassed or or cast out from society,
and Jesus loves them.
So, it's a great example of how Jesus loves these people and how we should love them too.
(01:45):
And I think that flowed beautifully from last week's Echo podcast when we talked
about beauty and how beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
And I posed the question, how beautiful are you in God's eyes?
And you beautifully answered it, right, with these stories.
And it's not you, it's Jesus, right? Jesus is answering the question, but you taught us.
(02:09):
Well, I was talking with our coworker, Barbara, earlier today,
and along a similar vein, I was just saying, truth is truth.
It doesn't really matter who says it.
And you and I talk talk a lot about the harmony and resonance of the Holy Spirit.
And when the Spirit's talking, truth is what you hear. The Spirit's talking, it's truth and love.
(02:35):
And if I happen to be the instrument or the oracle or whatever you want to call
it, so be it. That's my goal.
I mean, as a pastor and a preacher, I hope and pray that God speaks through me.
But it would be really bad if he spoke through me and I thought I did that,
(02:56):
you know? And so I try really hard to give him all the honor and glory and not
in some false humility, you know, because you hear that a lot,
I'm afraid, in our business.
But yeah, you know, credit goes to, well, Frank, for one thing,
because he spoke in his book,
the cast of characters illustration, and I simply took that forward and spoke it in my own way.
(03:21):
So God worked through Frank, and then I used Frank's words, and he worked through
me so that God got the word across one way or another.
So, you know. Yeah. And when you say you spoke it in your own way,
I think you really took it to a next level in the sermon this past weekend by
quite literally speaking of your own story and your own journey and how you
(03:45):
can relate to these characters.
And if I may, why did you decide to go in that direction?
I do think it was very impactful. I think a lot of people appreciated your candor
and just openness. this. Well, thank you.
I don't know. I feel like these last couple of years have changed me a lot.
(04:07):
I suppose they have everybody.
And as I tend to do, and it seems like every week I start by saying,
as I tend to do, which I just overthink things a lot of times.
And so I think about what I'm saying and why I say it and how consistent it is and all that.
But at the end of of the day, I've realized that maybe because of where I am
(04:32):
in my life in this aging process,
maybe because I've been profoundly affected and afflicted by all the same conditions
that have gotten everybody in the last few years.
And maybe there's a spiritual maturity that's awakening, Because I don't think
anybody's ever done cooking in the sense that the Holy Spirit is sanctifying us.
(04:58):
If sanctification is a process of preparing you, then we're never done cooking,
not until the Lord says so.
And so all that to say, I don't know.
I can't really name one thing. All I can say is that I've become a lot more
fearless at this point in my life than I think I've ever been.
(05:22):
And it's been out of necessity to a certain extent because quite honestly,
the last couple of years, I've reached a point of just being tired of being
wounded for doing my job the best I can.
And I don't want to sound like I'm feeling sorry for myself.
You know, there's all kinds of people out there defending pastors,
(05:44):
mostly pastors, but there are a few people out there who actually think their
pastors get mistreated or whatever.
But church people, what I think is happening is I think that our church here
at Shiloh and many similar churches with similar people and similar dynamics
are going through this, too.
(06:05):
I just don't know it, you know, but I believe it. I think we're all awakening
to the idea that there is something radically flawed about the way we've been
doing church for the last several decades,
maybe longer, maybe for the last 50 to 100 years.
Because I feel like around this time, 100 years ago, there was this shift towards
(06:32):
something called the social gospel.
And there was a guy around a hundred years ago named Rosen Bush,
who, who kind of sort of gave voice to this social gospel movement.
And, and he was just a catalyst really for something.
And this is so easy for me to go off on a tangent.
(06:54):
And I don't want to do that or stay on target, but you, you know,
you, what I'm realizing is, is that 100 years ago, people came out of World War I disillusioned.
Those who fought that war and lived it in Europe came out of it disillusioned
because they didn't know that humanity had the capacity to kill and destroy
(07:20):
on a level as great as that.
You know what I mean? They saw something They thought they couldn't have imagined,
you know, they, they gas.
You know, poison gas and, and just things like that, like could not have conceived
of a war on that scale, global war, you know?
(07:41):
Okay. So, so they come out of that and that's where we get guys like CS Lewis
and J R R Tolkien, you know, they're veterans of that war.
Or Chesterton has some imaginative characters he's created that are built around
their war experience in World War I.
And, you know, Britain felt that war more acutely than America can imagine,
(08:05):
which is why they still wear poppies to this day around what we call Veterans Day.
But bottom line is that society was really jaded.
And then we had this pandemic 100 years ago that was far more severe and shockingly
violent than the one we went through a few years ago. And all this happened 100 years ago.
(08:31):
And then World War I Part II starts, you know, or the Great War Part II. World War II happens.
And our capacity for destruction.
Exponentially increases over
the unimaginable destruction and death that happened in World War I, okay?
So now we're already halfway through the century. We're already halfway here where we are now.
(08:57):
And we've seen nuclear weapons, we've seen death camps that killed tens of millions
of people in a mechanical, like, death factory kind of way.
We see maniacal leaders with evil capacity beyond our comprehension,
and we're just halfway to where we are now.
(09:18):
And so, all of that to say, no wonder people started losing faith in God as
they understood God, because it looked like the the devil was winning.
And so we've ended up reaching a point then where right after World War II, there's peace.
And here in America, we think we did that.
(09:42):
Because unlike the rest of the world, our little chunk of land called North
America is pretty much unscathed.
We haven't seen our cities destroyed and bombed. We haven't seen death camps in our forests.
We haven't seen invading forces coming across, you know, leaving tracks and
(10:05):
tanks and munitions and mines, and we haven't experienced any of that.
And our economy immediately takes off as soon as the war is over.
And so naturally, all the Christians go around going, see, God favors us.
We're America, and we're better than everybody else.
That's why we're prospering and thriving, because because we are better.
(10:30):
I don't even know whether that's wrong in itself, but it is wrong when it becomes pride.
Because one of the things we did as Americans immediately after World War II
was over is we went back and we dusted our enemies off and cleaned them up and
helped them out. It was very Christian.
(10:53):
You know, we beat them, and then we said, now that you've stopped this insanity,
let's work together to make a better world.
I mean, we really were a pretty decent country in those days,
trying to do the right thing.
But eventually it started jading us and twisting us.
And the next thing you know, it's the 60s, and this jaded, twisted sort of thing
(11:16):
is starting to take hold. and that's where we get this generation that,
well, was running things up until recently because, you know, that was their turn.
And look how our society got decadent and got, you know, turned from God and
become a wicked world in so many ways.
And all of this brings us to the end of the century, and now you and I are living
(11:41):
into another century, and we're seeing in so many ways the repeat of what happened
100 years earlier. Only one thing's changed.
Instead of turning from God, I think our country and a lot of its people are
turning to God, but they're turning away from religion.
They're turning away from the false prophets of Christianity.
(12:01):
They're turning away from a lot of the people who have perpetuated a counterfeit Christianity.
Christianity, you know, we hadn't talked about this a lot lately,
but counterfeit is what Satan specializes in.
He creates a tree that looks like the tree of life, but it isn't the tree of
life. It's a really convincing duplicate.
(12:24):
When you think in terms of counterfeit, the word counterfeit is most often used
for us in regard to fake money.
You know, well, counterfeit money that isn't very very convincing doesn't get very far.
I, I can't go into the restaurant with a black and white photocopy of a $20
bill and say, here, this is money. You know, they're going to look at that and go, that's crap.
(12:45):
You know, what are you really trying to pull here? You know?
Yeah. And, and yet if I do make something really convincing, they might take it.
And I believe that America and Christians in this country and a lot of the free world,
they've been buying a counterfeit version of Christianity for a long time,
(13:06):
and now they don't even know that what they've been spending isn't real currency.
And it's the people who walked away from that false Christianity,
that fake Christianity.
They walked away from it a long time ago, and then their sons and daughters
came back, And they, they can see as plain as day that that's not real.
(13:30):
You know what I mean? Like they, they look at what, you know,
maybe, maybe one way to illustrate this is that, that even when you were young,
you know, and I got a few years on you, but even when you were young,
money, wasn't the same as it is now.
There have been so many new technologies introduced into our currency in the
last 20 years or so in your lifetime.
(13:52):
Time i know you're more than 20 but i mean you know the last 20
years or so currency's been upgraded substantially with
all kinds of new tricks and and traits to keep it from being duplicated and
and falsified so so that's the only money you know the hundred dollar bill you
grew up with isn't the same hundred dollar bill i grew up with in fact we didn't
use a lot of hundred dollar bills when i was a kid because the 20 got the work
(14:15):
got the job done well you know because of the economy.
But I'm just saying the $20 bill, the $5 bill that I spent when I was your age
didn't look the same as the one you spent.
They were basically the same, but yours has got technology built into it and
it's got all kinds of wild and crazy stuff in it that you're used to.
So if I gave you a counterfeit of the $20 bill that I saved from when I was
(14:42):
25 years old, or I gave you the $25 bill that I had when I was 25 years old.
If I had a $20 bill and I gave it to you when I was 25, this is confusing.
Lots of numbers. I should have picked a different denomination.
If I found an envelope in my closet and I had $20 bills in there from when I
was your age or younger, and I gave it to you, you'd go, is that real?
(15:07):
And then you'd look at it and you'd go, well, yeah, I think it's real.
And I would say, yeah, it's real money. It's just old, real money.
But then if I found in that envelope that somebody had slipped me a few counterfeits,
you'd spot it in a second.
And you'd say, why couldn't you see that? You know what I mean?
(15:28):
Because you're conditioned by your world to recognize the counterfeits from
my world because that counterfeit thing has become a part of your world.
Does that make sense the way I'm trying to explain that? I think so.
You know, I didn't – if I keep following that line of thought,
(15:48):
the counterfeit currency thing, What I'm trying to say is that our money wasn't
as sophisticated in the way that it was made.
I mean, literally, the way a $20 bill was made in 1980 when I graduated from
high school is so far and away different from the way a $20 bill is made now.
Because now it's made with all kinds of anti-counterfeiting technology that didn't exist then.
(16:14):
So you might look at the $20 bill from 1980 and say, well, that looks like play money.
But you'd know that it wasn't because, well, for one thing, play money is made with paper.
And even back when I was, you know, in high school, money was made with more than paper.
It was made with cloth and, you know, it had a certain texture to it that you knew made it real.
(16:40):
But I think if I had a 45-year-old counterfeit 20, you'd spot it so fast.
And you'd say, well, why did you hang on to that for the last 45 years?
Didn't you know that was fake?
Well, no. Or I wouldn't have kept it.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think people who have not been immersed
(17:03):
in Christianity for the last 40 or 50 years are more readily recognized phony
Christianity than the Christians do.
That's my point. Yeah. My point is that those of us who have been spending and
exchanging currency that is counterfeit all these years don't know how to spot counterfeit.
(17:29):
But those who have never handled our counterfeit currency, they come in and
they look at it and immediately recognize that it's counterfeit.
And I think that's a good thing. I think we're in a good place right now.
I just, you know, kind of like our church, I think there's a revival happening
in our church. I think amazing things are happening in our church.
(17:49):
I just wish it was happening a little faster.
You know, I told our friend Barbara this morning, because we were talking about
some things that were exciting, that I'm seeing all kinds of change.
All the things I'd hoped for are happening. happening what i'm realizing is
it's not a problem of speed it's a problem of distance,
all this time i thought we just weren't going fast enough but
(18:11):
it turns out we're going really fast you know our hair's on fire we're going
so fast but the problem is that i didn't estimate how far we had to go correctly
yeah so all this time i thought we were just not going fast enough but it turns
out we're going plenty fast it's just that we got a lot further to go than I thought.
And so, if you see the correlation,
(18:35):
because the problem is a lot of these things make sense in my head,
but when I try to explain them, maybe they don't come out as clearly as I hope,
is you asked me why I was willing to be so vulnerable and put myself out there.
And my answer to the question is, I think that the world is changing for Christians
(18:55):
right now, And it's not all bad.
It's not. In fact, I think the counterfeit Christianity that we bought into
for the last 50 or 60 years or more,
I think that the consequence of this whole evangelicalism and a lot of other
isms around church and everything,
I think one of the things that's happened is that our counterfeit Garden of
(19:22):
Eden looks very enticing.
But it's still counterfeit, you know, and, and I see it and,
and I see people walking right towards the brink and getting ready to just step off the ledge.
And, and it's, it's like, there's this mirage that they've been walking towards all this time.
(19:45):
That's the promised land mirage. It's the garden of Eden mirage.
And they've been walking towards it.
And I see these people walking right towards it.
And I see the abyss on the other side of the mirage.
And, and it's like, stop, I'm screaming at them.
Stop, stop before it's too late, you know, stop. stop.
(20:07):
And at this point, I'm so desperate to find a way to get them to stop that I'm
willing to throw myself in front of them and let them walk over me while I try.
I'm saying that I'll be vulnerable in a way that I've never thought I could
be because this is another way that I'm trying to scream at them, stop.
You're walking into the abyss. You're walking towards a mirage. you've got to stop.
(20:31):
You've got to recognize that this is the devil at his best.
He's created an image of Eden. He's created an image of the church.
He's created a counterfeit to the tree of life, and he has tricked you yet again
into going right towards it.
And I'm just saying, and this cast of characters that Jesus embraced were all
(20:58):
people who were countercultural.
He was the chief counterculturalist, and he was embracing the counterculture
because he was watching the religious authorities, the Pharisees,
the people of God, the ones who had the way, the keys to the kingdom.
They had it, and they were walking towards a mirage. They were walking towards certain destruction.
(21:21):
And I mean, if you, you know, because I can't help mixing history and metaphor.
I mean, if you look at what happened to the people who killed Jesus,
who punished his followers, who tried to suppress him,
70 years later, their temple and their city and their their very lives were
(21:45):
destroyed and remained nothing but dust and ruin for hundreds and hundreds of years.
I mean, he told them they were walking towards a mirage and they were getting
ready to step into the abyss. He told them.
His apostles saw it clearly because he took the blinders off their eyes like he did with Paul.
(22:09):
Paul was a religious Pharisee who who was walking towards the abyss,
walking towards a mirage in an abyss.
His blinders have fallen away. The scales on his eyes fall away,
and suddenly he sees things the way they really are.
That's truth and metaphor in the story for what a religious person like him
(22:32):
was about and what they did.
And we're still there now. And so for me,
it feels like my calling is not so much to, I don't know, violently oppose the
people who are foolishly walking towards their own destruction, but to plead with them.
And if it gets their attention because I'm willing to say things about myself
(22:56):
that would make them more readily relate with the trustworthy nature of my message.
You know, why would you believe me if I don't say to you, I know where you've been,
I've been there too, but I've seen where it goes, and I'm going this way now,
and I need you to come with me before you go too far and end up in a place you
(23:19):
can't get back from, you know?
Like, that's what I was doing when I said things in the sermon that were,
you know, revelatory about my life and my feelings.
And, you know, I've decided that the best thing I can do at this point in my
life is embrace who I am and let that person be God's messenger instead of trying
(23:43):
to craft a messenger for God to use.
You know, I am this broken person who's got a disability that you can't see,
but it's as disabling and crippling as any that you can see.
I have this history that has informed how I interpret life and I've chosen a better way.
(24:06):
And that, you know, that's why I talked about like, you know,
how I raised my children.
And it was a deliberate attempt to try to raise better children and raise,
not better children, but raise them a better way.
And to give them a better life and better feelings about themselves and the world and everything.
And, you know, to just kind of hit the reset button for my family tree.
(24:29):
And to say, this branch has been cut away from the unhealthy trunk tree.
And it's been grafted to a healthier trunk. And since I'm the branch that got
cut away and grafted, I have a wound that will never go away.
I have a worn spot.
I have a scar.
(24:50):
I have this part of me that's still wounded. But from me, something entirely
new and better has emerged because I was willing to suffer for the sake of the
ones that will follow me.
You know, and I think being vulnerable in that way and explaining to people
(25:10):
in that way that I can look at a person in Jesus's sphere when he's walking
the earth and see myself in all of those characters.
I can see myself as the woman at the well who's made mistakes that have shamed
me to the extent that I don't want to be around people who remember me when I was that stupid.
But, you know, I can identify with the man who's been cast out of his sphere
(25:36):
of, of society and his family doesn't even want anything to do with him because
they feel that his disability is a sign of weakness.
And more than that, it's a sign that they failed somehow and he failed somehow.
And so looking at his crippled body makes them think that they're failures and
he's a failure and that's embarrassing and shaming.
(25:57):
But his friends just see this guy they really love.
And they think Jesus can help him, and they're willing to do what his family
wouldn't do, which is cheat to get him at the head of the line with Jesus so
he could be healed, you know, because they loved him that much,
you know, and I can relate to that.
I can relate to that, you know. And so every time I look at this cast of characters
(26:20):
that Jesus surrounded himself with, I see something about them that I can relate
to, and I think that's the point.
I am Peter, you know, oh, many people like to claim that they're Peter and they
like to identify with Peter and Peter's kind of like Jimmy Stewart or who's
a more modern version of the every man kind of guy that Tom Hanks,
(26:43):
you know, he's, he's goofy and the Disney cartoons, you know, he's every man. man.
Peter is the guy we can all relate to. I know, you know, it's a man and,
you know, he certainly was a man's man.
But there are probably women in the Bible that would be like most women can relate to.
But the point that I wish to make is that he surrounds himself with these characters
(27:07):
because they're people that we can all relate to.
And he's saying, it's you I I came for.
That's why I like to tell people, just keep in mind that when he was hanging
on the cross, he was thinking of you.
And I believe that's literally true, because he has that timeless capacity as
God in the flesh to be thinking of you.
(27:30):
Even before he met you, even before you were born, even before you were conceived,
he's still on the cross thinking of you.
And that's the point, you know
so anyway did i kind of
answer that question i think you did i think
you did why was i making myself vulnerable in that
particular way yeah that's what i thought i was answering yeah and you did i
(27:55):
want to back up to a few subject topics ago because i made a weird face listener
you don't know that but i made a weird face because it was it was not thank
you for that that, though.
So, when you were talking about the abyss and people walking towards this mirage
or towards this abyss... I remembered the face. Yes. So...
(28:19):
In the youth group, we have participated in something called Dare to Share Live the past two years.
And last year, so, okay, 2022 in November, that was literally the drama that
they did in the Dare to Share thing.
Like, to a T, the girl described seeing a line of people, basically zombies,
(28:45):
just walking walking mindlessly towards this abyss.
And she sees this happening. And these people are just falling off a cliff to their death.
And they have no idea because they're just mindlessly following.
She sees this. She's freaking out. She's yelling at them. She's trying to shake
them saying, wake up, wake up. This is not the path.
Basically, this is not the path to righteousness. This is the counterfeit that
(29:08):
you're just mindlessly following.
She runs back into her church. She tells the church and they just sit there
and they don't do anything. And so it was a really cool metaphor.
But I'm weirdly smiling as you're telling the story because there's a sign of
us walking in the spirit.
Right. And you had no idea. I didn't tell you that was a drama at all.
(29:29):
And even if I did, I mean, it probably would have forgotten if it were me.
That was a year and a half ago.
Where have I heard this story before? She thought. I'm like,
what? Wait a minute. He wasn't there.
And so that was just such a cool moment. And I think if we're talking about
the counterfeit, and we're talking about the counterfeit of Christ,
(29:50):
there are moments where...
Kind of like the dollar bill or the $20 bill. There are certain characteristics
in that bill that make you know that it's not the counterfeit.
And I think when we're in church and we're walking in the spirit,
there are signs that tell us that this is not the counterfeit.
And so I just kind of wanted to go back to that topic for a second,
(30:12):
because there are countless times here at Shiloh where I just know this is not the counterfeit.
And there are moments like that, or a couple weeks ago with the Lion of Judah reference.
And I think it's important for people who are seeking Christ to truly know what
(30:34):
are the signs that this is a true $20 bill.
And so I think one of those signs is when you connect with people on such a
spiritual level that is entirely unplanned, that can only mean that you're walking in the Spirit together.
And I know that you and I have those moments all the time, and I hear from other
(30:57):
people who are leading other Bible studies and things that that's happening to them too.
And so I think that's one sign. Can you think of other signs that might be helpful?
Pete Yeah, in fact, I think there's a little bit of resonance happening here
in the Shiloh office on a Wednesday because,
(31:17):
you know, I was talking with Barbara this morning, who is a little bit older than I am,
and she is actively involved in Bible study and things like that with people
who are considered older members of our congregation,
and among them are some people who are really awakening and feeling the movement
(31:39):
of the Spirit, and they've talked to me, and they've talked to each other,
and then she's told me about it, right?
So all that to say that I hear these moments of resonance where we're in harmony or we're in sync,
and those, as you say, I am certain are the signs of the Holy Spirit,
because Because there's nothing else that can explain, you know,
(32:02):
how pieces and parts that are so far distant can interact with each other on
such a complex level, you know.
And as we, you and I were talking in your office earlier, you know,
the devil, he delights in chaos, which means he's not going to cause those kinds
of interconnectedness to happen. He's going to do everything he can to disrupt them.
(32:24):
So, it has to be the Holy Spirit. It has to be a good...
And with that being said, if you're looking for those signs, listen for the harmony.
You know, hear the way these things resonate with each other.
Notice that you're hearing something.
(32:46):
Well, like I was telling you, I was watching this preview for an Angel Studios
movie, and the devil is the character in this story that's played by an actor
who's actually a very serious as a devout Christian.
And this Christian man is portraying the devil so magnificently.
(33:07):
And in this preview of this movie, at one point, he's being called out by a
good person as, you're Satan, aren't you?
And he doesn't deny it, but he basically says, and chaos is what I I love to create.
And my wife looked at me and she said, isn't that what you say all the time?
(33:29):
And I said, that's resonance.
It's not like they were listening to my sermon way out there in Hollywood and
said, hey, that's a good idea.
Let's put it in the script for this movie. It's just truth.
It's just truth. It exists because it's real and true, and it's just waiting for you to discover it.
So if you're trying to figure out how to find the truth, If you're trying to
(33:53):
figure out how to hear the harmony that comes from the Spirit or the heart and
mind of God, it's just waiting to be discovered.
It's not hidden from you. It's not hidden.
It's just that you've got to go looking for it.
So to bring it down to earth, one of the things that Adrian and I both hope
(34:14):
for desperately with this podcast is that it's reaching people who don't go to church,
that it's reaching people who aren't members at Shiloh.
We're glad our Shiloh friends are listening. And quite honestly,
a lot of what we say on this podcast is probably very difficult for our Shiloh
friends, at least some of them.
(34:35):
And some of what we talk about on this is probably very difficult for people
who go to other churches in this community and they go, see,
that's what I told you about those Shiloh people.
The next thing you're going to hear is they're wrestling with snakes in their
worship service, right?
You know, and whatever. You know, I don't care.
(34:56):
We decided to start doing this podcast because we wanted to be able to say things.
That we say all the time anyway, but they don't get in sermons.
They don't get heard by the people who never go to a Sunday school class or
never attend one of my Wednesday night roundtable discussions.
And so there's plenty of time and opportunity for you to hear the kinds of thoughts
(35:20):
that Adrian and I express, but you got to go look and you have to find it.
I don't know how to tell How do I tell someone who's not listening to this podcast
to listen to this podcast?
You know, I mean, you tell them, friends, if you're listening and you're saying,
I wish Fred could hear this, because whenever Fred is talking about church,
(35:42):
he's always talking about those hypocrites and those this and those that. And Fred's not wrong.
It's just that he might be wrong about us. He might realize if he listened to
something like this that Christians aren't all a bunch of old school,
dyed-in-the-wool, personally,
my problem, people who are married to a counterfeit version of Christianity.
(36:07):
They're not all like that, Fred. Listen. Listen, please.
Go seek the truth, and you will find it. that there are people out there who
are talking about Christianity in a way that you've never heard before.
There are people who go to church who are doing Christianity in a way you've never seen before.
(36:28):
And they're not all like whatever it is you've imagined it to be.
But listen, I'll be the first to acknowledge that there's plenty of corrupt
Christianity out there.
There are plenty of people going to church. Right.
Who are doing it in a way that is unfortunately a slow walk over the abyss,
(36:49):
over the edge into the abyss.
There are lots and lots of people going to church and their lives are molded
around this habit of going to church, molded around these religious habits.
In a couple of weeks, they're going to start eating fish on Fridays,
even if they're not Catholic, because somehow that makes them feel like they're being good Christians.
(37:10):
And it's like, no, it doesn't. It doesn't even matter.
It doesn't even matter. None of it matters.
If you don't know why, or if you've managed to recite an answer to why that
is basically, you know, like the standard answer that you've been taught to
give when people criticize you for such things,
(37:32):
you're probably just mindlessly walking towards the edge of the abyss,
and you can't see what it is because you're looking at an illusion.
Or a delusion that is made up in your own mind.
I mean, this is harsh, but I'm just leveling with people.
If you can't answer honestly what motivates you to have this religious activity
(37:56):
in your life that is supposedly about Jesus,
but you really don't know Jesus, Jesus, if you're not radically in love with
Jesus because his beauty has.
Just stunned you into submission. That's the whole point of these last two weeks of sermons.
(38:17):
This is the whole point of Frank's chapter in his book, Insurgence,
Reclaiming the, Recapturing or Reclaiming the Kingdom of, the Gospel of the Kingdom.
My mind's going ahead of my mouth, too.
Reclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom. Thank you very much. You're very welcome.
You know, the book's sitting on my desk.
It's right over here behind me, and I love the author and I love the book and
(38:38):
he's my friend, he's my brother in Christ, but I can't seem to get the title
right right this minute. It's okay, I can't get his last name right half the time.
We still love him. But the point that I wish to make is he wants you to see,
Frank wants you to see, I want you to see that if you're a Christian mindlessly
walking towards the abyss, it's because you have been ignoring the real Christ.
(39:03):
You've been walking towards something that's more appealing to you than Jesus
Christ, and it's a religion.
It's a Christianity that's comfortable and easy, and the reality is following
Jesus will get you labeled as an insurgent.
Following Jesus will make you say things on podcasts that are going to tick
(39:27):
people off, and they're going to say hateful things about you or to you. you.
Following Jesus is going to make you say something in a sermon that's way too
personal for a sermon, but you're going to do it because you want people to
love him as much as you do or more.
That's what it means to be a Christian, to love Jesus, to be madly in love with
Jesus, because his beauty is so stunningly, overwhelmingly irresistible.
(39:53):
And people People would rather just go through life walking towards a picture
of Jesus that's transparent and sitting on the edge of a cliff,
and they're going to walk through it and fall into the abyss.
Listener, did you hear it? Did you hear the true gospel? Did you hear the true love for Jesus?
(40:14):
There's a sign for you. See, we want you to know him. And we know that knowing
Christians can be a way of knowing him.
But you have to know, you have to understand what you're looking for.
I want you to look. I want you to go out there and look. I want you to go ask.
(40:37):
I'll tell you what. So Barbara and I were talking this morning because she really
likes these roundtable discussions I have on Wednesday nights.
So, I mean, if you're in the Jasper area, come over and have supper with us at five.
And then at six, we just sit around after supper and talk. How cool is that?
I mean. And then your kids can come to youth group. That's right.
Kids are going to youth group.
Yeah. Thank you for. Just do a little plug there. Yeah. Because if you hadn't
(40:58):
noticed, this Adrienne is pretty awesome, and kids love her.
And she really, really loves them, and she is helping them grow in Christ.
So it's like, basically, if you come over here and you have supper with us on
Wednesday nights at 5, and then sit around at 7 while the kids are going to
children's church or children's activities, which are really awesome,
(41:19):
and Kimberly takes good care of them.
And then you can go and do, the youth can go do things with Adrienne and her
gang. And it's just all kinds of great things to do.
But at the end of the day, there's this group of adults that sits around after
supper, after the dishes are done, and we talk about whatever.
And so Barbara and I were talking about that this morning. And I said,
(41:40):
well, you know, Barbara,
I'm starting to think that the people out there who are hungry
for truth are more desperate to have a conversation like that than they are
to take a class or watch a video with a really cool pastor with spiky hair and
an untucked shirt and props and lights and smoke machines.
(42:01):
You know, like, they just want to talk to somebody that looks like they really
believe this, that they're willing to bet their life on it, that they're willing
to bet their eternal soul on it.
I think people are looking for that. Yeah.
And I think that...
More than anything, the answer to your question is, you know,
(42:24):
when you ask, like, what should they do?
What should they look for? How do they spot the counterfeits? All that.
Start talking to people. The one thing you can't do is ignore Christians and
ignore churches because you think there's never going to be anything relevant coming from them.
Because unfortunately, that's like saying, I want to get well,
(42:45):
but I hate hospitals, so I'm not going anywhere near a hospital.
Hospital and maybe that stems from the fact that
every time you've been to the hospital it's been a big waste of time and
money and they really didn't do you any good but sooner or later you're going
to need that kind of help and there will be a moment when you actually get good
help so by the way that was just an illustration i don't really feel that way
(43:09):
about hospitals or encourage anybody anybody to feel that way.
But, but my point is, is that, that, you know, you, you can't just whitewash
everything and say, well, I have one bad experience.
I've had 10 bad experiences, so I'm never going to have a good experience.
I get it. The more you keep sticking your finger in that hole and getting bit,
(43:33):
the less likely you're ever going to do that.
Again, I get that. I really do. I,
I totally understand that, that, that every time Charlie Brown agrees to let
Lucy hold the football for him, she still pulls it out and makes him fall on his back.
She, you know, it's like, like that's an old reference, but you know,
(43:55):
back in the peanuts days when Charlie Brown and Lucy would play football together,
she would always tell him she wouldn't pull the football ball away this time,
but she always pulls the football away. I get it.
But somehow I want to convince people that even though you may have had a bad
experience with churches many times, you could develop a test.
(44:17):
And maybe somehow we're doing that. Like somehow we're helping you develop a test.
That would be one of the great outcomes that we could take away from making
this podcast is maybe I haven't actually told you exactly what to look for,
but you're You're hearing things that really intrigue you.
And so from that, you can develop a test.
I have certain tests that I use with people.
(44:41):
I'm unfortunately very suspicious of other clergy, and I probably shouldn't be as suspicious as I am.
But like everyone else in the world, I've had more than enough negative experiences
to be highly distrusting.
And so I just have certain things that I listen for, some of them good, some of them bad.
(45:04):
I listen for the harmony and the resonance of the Holy Spirit,
but I also listen for for the signs of pride and angst and stuff like that, you know?
And so I guess what I would say to the people out there trying to find the truth
and love and, and, you know, it's, yes, you got to go to church.
Not, not that church is the only way, but you know, if you're trying to find something, you know,
(45:32):
I want to make an illustration because I can't just seem to say this the way
I want to, but you know, if you're, if you're looking for grass in the forest,
then you're going to have to spend a lot of time walking around the forest looking for some grass.
On the other hand, if you go where grass grows, like my front yard or the park
or whatever, then you say, yeah, but I'm looking for four-leaf clover.
(45:57):
Okay. And that's still not a very good illustration,
but I'm just saying that you're It's still more likely to hear Christian truth
and love where Christians gather because there are many Christians who hang
out with other Christians, even if they know that the Christians are hanging
out with don't seem to get it.
(46:18):
Because who would you rather hang out with? People who like the same things
you like and do the same things you do, but maybe don't appreciate it to the
extent that you do, you know?
I mean, you like a certain kind of music. You like being around people who like
that. But then when they start talking like they don't.
Football, there's a good one. You know, now that all the Swifties are into football,
(46:40):
you can go to a bar or a pub or something and you can listen to people talking about football.
And there are some that know the game.
And they know the history and the nuance of football, but then there's some
Swifties over there, you know, drinking fruity cocktails, watching the game,
and they don't know anything.
They just know that the camera's going to pan to Taylor at some point. Yep. Right?
(47:05):
And yet you'd still rather be in the football bar than not.
You know what I mean? Because, you know, I hope that illustration somehow helps.
It's like, please, give it a try. So in that metaphor, is the bar church?
Well, it could be. Okay. I think an awful lot of good Christianity happens in bars.
(47:26):
Sure. I really do. I think that people find fellowship, acceptance.
I've read something recently that I can't recall where or what exactly the wording
was, but it was something to the effect of that it shouldn't surprise you that
people go to church church and be turned away,
treated like outcasts, you know, stared at for not fitting in, you,
(47:52):
chided and mistreated because they don't know the rules that are just sort of
hidden that everybody else knows.
And yet that same person can go to the bar and they'll be accepted,
you know, they'll be welcome, you know.
And so, yeah, there's a lot of good ministry that happens in bars.
It's just not in the name of Jesus, but it looks an awful lot like good Christianity.
(48:15):
And I often think that church would be a lot more fun if people would behave
like they do at bars, without the drunkenness and the debauchery that comes
with drunkenness. Yeah. You know?
What you said reminds me of someone newer to the Shiloh family who came in recently,
and she joined one of our Wednesday night classes.
(48:36):
And she asked, she said, all right, y'all, tell me the rules.
Like, I'm in, but I want to know the rules. I don't want to do anything wrong.
I don't want to mess up, you know? And I can understand. It hurts.
I can understand where she's coming from, because I've been there too.
It does. But like, if you're concerned about fitting some mold or following
(48:59):
some rules, throw all of that out the window and just walk in the door.
I mean, that's truly her. Thankfully, someone I know very well was in that class
with her and they were like, don't worry about it. We just love Jesus. Yeah.
Just don't stress so much about it. I mean, I know everybody in this congregation.
(49:21):
Some of them have even complained that they don't think I know them, but they're wrong.
I know them. And I'm sure that if you got into a conversation with some of them,
you'd have the same negative experience that you expected.
Because they've been going here a long time, and they're not going to change
just because there's one radical pastor.
(49:41):
They've had many pastors. They've seen many come and go. And I've heard it all.
Sure. and and the thing is is i don't know anybody in this church that i don't love,
and don't like on a certain level but i do know some who they're just stuck
and they're just going to do what they do and they're probably more blind to
(50:04):
it than anyone around them,
and to a certain extent you just kind of feel sorry for them and you know i
describe myself is being disabled in certain ways that are not seen but they're
there and you know what there's a lot of people like that in church you remember
this was it this Sunday or the previous Sunday that I said I look out at the
congregation and I see sick people.
(50:26):
Yeah. You know? And out of context, it would have sounded horrible for the pastor
to stand up there, but they all understood.
I didn't see anybody going, what did he just say? They all were with me because
I had built up to that point by saying, we need to understand that the church
is a place where soul-sick people go to get well, you know?
(50:49):
And that that's what it is at its best.
And I described myself as the chief practitioner at this hospital for the soul,
but I also said that I'm the head inmate in the asylum,
that I didn't describe myself as someone who was superior to everybody else,
and that's why I was qualified to help heal.
(51:11):
I'm a walking wounded myself.
I'm a head inmate in the asylum. I'm a broken, wounded person who's following
Jesus desperately because I can't help it, and I'm willing to drag you along
with me even as I limp closer to his grace.
It's like that's one of the things you look for, brothers and sisters. That's the sign.
(51:33):
You find the best way to identify a true Christian is is humility.
I think if you're trying to decide in quickest way whether you're talking to
a real Christian or not, you listen for the humility.
Because an awful lot of Christians, so-called, are vain. And they say vain things.
They judge you. You're right to turn away from someone in a church who is judgy and mean.
(51:59):
You're right to turn from them.
Shake the dust off your feet and leave them if they reject you.
Jesus said that. But when you talk to someone who's humble, when they smile
and laugh at themselves because they're not very good at remembering names and
they've already forgotten yours and you told them five minutes ago,
recognize that for what it is.
(52:21):
When they say, well, we're not used to seeing new people around here as often
as we'd like, but sure, I'm glad you're here.
You can be embarrassed or frustrated by that, or you can say,
well, here's a nice person And it's just saying the truth and,
you know, not ashamed to admit that they don't, you know, I've heard people,
I remember an incident in one of my churches years ago where a black lady came
(52:46):
to the church and it's an all white church.
And one of our members came up to her and said, well, I expect the music isn't
what you're accustomed to, but I hope you have a good time with us.
And, and I, and I remember the conversation that happened after that.
And it just happened that this lady was one of the professors that my daughter
(53:07):
went to school with, Ball State, right?
So it's really kind of funny because they had a conversation about it.
And the professor was very interested in what I thought about all of it.
And what I said was, well, there's a couple of ways you can look at it.
The lady who said that is really one of the most humble servants in the church,
and she's always taken a backseat to the big mouths who think they run everything
(53:31):
in that church. church and what she said to you was just truth.
Now, her truth was misguided because she just assumed because you were black
that you preferred different kind of music than what you would hear in this church.
And that's not racism.
That's really just a humble, ignorant person demonstrating their ignorance.
(53:52):
And her professor, to her credit, said, you know, I never thought about it that way. you know?
And nowadays somebody would say, well, that's an indication of systemic racism.
No, it's not. It's just ignorance.
And ignorance is not a crime.
Ignorance isn't a crime against humanity. It's not a crime against a race or
(54:14):
anything else. It's just ignorance.
Now, when you get knowledge, what you do with it says something about your character.
So, had they carried on their conversation, this sweet, humble lady, her name was Kathy.
If that woman had said to her, well, I can understand why you drew that conclusion,
but the truth is, is I like all kinds of music, and I might really like what I'm about to hear.
(54:39):
You know, Kathy's the kind of person that would have said, oh, good, you know? Yeah.
And my answer then is, is were you looking for a real Christian?
Because, you know, you found one. She may not be the most profoundly gifted
spiritually or the most unique,
like, you know, you can't look for some person that's like Jesus Christ in,
(55:01):
you know, second cousin once removed form, right?
You know, like, you know, you look at this person and you go,
well, I thought you'd be as close to Jesus Christ as a human being could be.
Well, I'm as close to Jesus Christ as I can be right now.
There's your sign. That's what you should be looking for, people.
If you're looking for a way to know whether you're in a church full of Christ
followers, look at the humility and see it for what it is. So it requires humility on your part.
(55:27):
So what I would say to that professor, who was a wonderful person that I have
no dispute with at all, but just for the sake of the discussion,
I'm just going to say, well, professor, you didn't exactly know how to respond to that.
So you just kind of dismissed it and she walked away and you walked away and
then you didn't come back. And, you know, like, well, some of that's on you. too.
(55:47):
If you were willing to be in a church where you're the only black person and
the first person you met said something that indicates they really don't know black people very well.
Then you had to make a decision about how to respond to that.
And that isn't about your race. That's about your character.
That's about your identity. That's about you as a human being.
(56:10):
And what I love about Christians is the really good ones, the ones that have
really accepted accepted Christ are just humble about things like that.
And they don't immediately draw on some satanic sort of nugget of chaos that's
just looking for a place to grow.
You know what I mean? Instead, they go, she's a sweet lady, but she obviously
(56:34):
doesn't know very many black people.
And then the black lady says, well, then in that case, I'm going to ask her
her name, and I'm going to talk to her.
And this could be my first friend in this church. But she didn't make that decision.
She wasn't mean. She wasn't cruel. She was a well-educated, intelligent lady
(56:55):
who just chose to take the high road and say, well, thank you for that.
But you made thoughts and decisions
in your mind that changed how you were going to go forward with this.
And you could have made other decisions. Mm-hmm. On the other hand,
(57:38):
if you just come up against somebody who's just ignorant,
but they have the humility to try.
Here's the thing. Nobody else walked up to her and talked to her except me.
And everybody in the church would go, well, that's his job. Even the guest assumed
it was just me doing my job.
So come on. If you really want to know, if you really hunger for truth,
(58:03):
you have to be prepared to do your part, and you have to be willing to search for that truth.
And when you find someone who's humble, you're on the right path. So stick with it. Yeah.
We've talked a lot of metaphors in today's episode, and I love it.
You just mentioned being on the right path, and I thought I'd end with this one last metaphor.
(58:28):
It was from one of our Shiloh family members. He told me that your sermon prompted
him to think this this past Sunday.
He said, for the first time in my life, and he's an older guy,
first time in my whole life, I could picture so clearly myself walking on this path,
and all around me, there's things trying to distract me. There's ditches on both sides.
(58:50):
They're throwing things at me. They're trying to get me to lose my sight,
but my sight is on Jesus, and I'm looking straight ahead.
And for the first time, I could just see that so clearly from Pastor Dan's sermon.
It's just amazing. I didn't get that from your sermon, but- Thank you for that. Yeah.
And he was just so moved by that. And he was like, man, I could just, he was just on and on.
(59:14):
I could just see myself walking. It was so amazing. Amazing.
And that's church, right? We should be that path that people are continuing to look to Christ.
We're just the path, right?
That's good. And in its healthiest form of church, right?
So I just wanted to share that with you and with the listeners.
(59:34):
If you're in a church and you don't have your eyes focused on Christ,
dust your feet off, walk away and find him, find the truth, because he's beautiful and he's love.
Amen amen see you
next week we went a little long today didn't we we did oops oops
maybe a two-parter i don't
(59:55):
know i don't either i wouldn't know where to split it yeah
well folks you know there's a pause button on your podcasting device you can
always pick it up and finish it later i guess well thanks for listening in real
humility i appreciate you more than you know because you you actually find some value in this.
(01:00:17):
And if you're still here at this point in this long podcast, God bless you.
Be sure to contact us and let us know how you're blessed by this. And, you know, be nice.
We're tenderhearted, but we do want to hear from you.
See ya. Bye.
Music.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.