Episode 307: Sabrina Zohar's No BS Relationship Advice

Dating coach Sabrina Zohar joins the show to drop some major knowledge on how our brains work in relationships -- limerence, mistaking attachment for connection, and how avoidants are often misunderstood.

Sabrina Zohar is a dynamic entrepreneur and dating coach renowned for her transformative podcast, The Sabrina Zohar Show. With a clear, no-nonsense approach to relationship advice, Sabrina's podcast has resonated globally, ranking in the top 0.05% of all podcasts. Each episode features practical tips backed by board-certified and licensed psychologists, aimed at helping listeners improve their dating lives by fostering self-worth and personal growth.

Follow Sabrina on Instagram and TikTok or visit her website.
And check out her podcast! 

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/lesbian-chronicles-coming-out-later-in-life--5601514/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Ali.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
I came out after twenty years of marriage and I
have three kids.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
and victories.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
That come with it when coming out feels like the
end of the world, but it's really just the beginning.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
This is the Lesbian Chronicles. Welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles,
where we have a super exciting guest that we've like
patiently been awaiting with a few reschedules, but we're so
excited that you could join, Sabrina.

Speaker 4 (00:46):
Thanks guys, I'm excited. I apologize. I had to get
unexpected mouth surgery and nothing will keep you quieter long
enough than spending a shit ton of money in your mouth.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Oh my god, so true.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
And it hurts like a bit, Like I don't think
people realize how bad your mouth hurts.

Speaker 4 (01:00):
When I was eighteen, I got a nose job and
that was like the one that was the one thing
I did and I'm so grateful, and it's the same thing.
I didn't realize how much you use certain body parts
until you can't even make a facial expression. You're like, oh,
that kills and it was the same here. I didn't
expect the pain to be what it was, but I'm
so glad to be on the other side of it.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
I bet well, Sabrina, we love your show, like we
were fans for a long time.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
My gosh, can I just start off by saying, like,
you saved my life over the last year the breakup
that I went through, Like I was listening to you
every week and like taking notes, so very appreciate what
you do.

Speaker 4 (01:34):
Thank you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, you're like the girlfriend that everybody needs because it's
like it's like harsh in the best way.

Speaker 4 (01:40):
It's the stuff that nobody wants. It's the seven when
you're out and you're like, why is nobody saying that?
And it's like it's almost the can you read the
room type moment of like Okay, well, I'm just gonna
say it right. So I appreciate. I am proud of
you guys for being here and being on the other
side of it. And I'm really excited to talk today
about whatever it is. It's going to help other people
because I think I was her. I was that girl
I And again I will preface I I'm only speaking

(02:02):
in heterosexual norms just because that's what I dealt with
and dated. But to me, if it's a personal thing,
I will But otherwise, like to me, love is love,
and I understand as a human we all do share
very similar experiences, and so I'm excited to understand different
perspectives and what you guys went through as well.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
I think like the first thing that comes to mind
is I'll just give you like a little like interesting
thing about our demographic, which is that it started really
with and now it's just all queer people. But I
think like it started with women coming out later that had,
you know, families, and then now they're coming out at thirty, forty,
fifty sixty and they're starting dating for the first time.

(02:41):
I mean, and honestly, you feel like an adolescent, Like
you feel like a reckless teenage boy out there on
the scene meeting women and nervous and then getting your
heart broken, and so it's like all those experiences that
shape you when you're eighteen to twenty.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
We're doing later.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
And I think that's where there's a disc Even with
Melissa and I personally, like we'll call each other and
be like, how am I fifty years old and like
having this fucking experience that's terrible. And also I'm acting
like a lunatic putting up with shit I should never
put up with, but it's like for a woman. And
so I think that's where like this kind of started

(03:19):
for us. And then we thought, oh my god, we
have got to get Sabrina from the Sabrina Zohar Show
to like come on our show because we hear these same.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
Stories over and over of like why am I putting
up with this?

Speaker 5 (03:31):
God?

Speaker 4 (03:31):
I could go on for hours about this. Sorry, Melissa,
did you want to add anything?

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah? No, I was just gonna say I think it's
interesting because you brought up the heteronormative stuff. But it's
it's funny listening to your podcast because sometimes I relate
to like the aspects that.

Speaker 5 (03:42):
You're saying, like this man.

Speaker 3 (03:43):
Did this, and I'm like, well I don't now, and
then like you know the other side of the female.

Speaker 5 (03:51):
So it's very interesting.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
But I think the biggest takeaway that I've had with
dating women is that there's no pacer.

Speaker 5 (03:57):
Yeah, there's no like all the.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
Oceans around the table right off the gate, like all
those things, so it's there is a little bit of
a different dynamic on the table with women dating women,
for sure.

Speaker 4 (04:09):
One hundred percent, Yeah, one hundred percent is same with
so like I grew up, my dad owned a gay
club in New York for thirty something years, So I
grew up. He had porn theaters in Midtown and the
gay club, so like I was thrown into sex positivity
and love is love, and like he had, they were
the drag show and I would go hang out with
the girls, and I was like, I loved it. It
was one of my favorite things to do. And I

(04:31):
really started to see, even at a young age, talking
to the girls, like hearing what their experiences were they
were talking about dating. I'm like nine years old, being
like yeah, I get it, no idea, Oh my god,
and really seeing like not much has changed besides to
your point when we start to look at the nooks
and crannies of like okay, in heterosexual relationships, man does this,
woman does this, and even now we're like fuck that.

(04:51):
I don't want to play those games anymore, right, Like
even in my household, the man makes the money, No,
the woman makes the money in our household, Like I'm
the bread winner and my partner works for me, and
it's like he does the cooking and I do more.
Like we have different variables and different things at work,
but they work for us. And I think to your point,
like you said, I feel like an adolescent, right. And
I have one of my friends, she's forty seven, and

(05:13):
she's she's in the line like she's a very well
known human in the world, so like you know, not
to blow her up, but she was married for twenty
five years, got out and to her point, the other
day she texted me and she was like, I feel
like I'm moron. I said, what happened? And she said,
I met this guy and he she and the way
she's telling it, I could see the naivete and she's like, yeah,
he told me to he had our second date. He

(05:34):
invited me at to dinner. He told me to pack
my overnight bag and I just looked at her and
I was like, and did you And she's like, yeah,
I brought my pajamas and I was like, oh my god.
And she's going on about how she went to his hotel.
He got mad at her that she wouldn't sleep with him,
and I was like, now, girl, I have never nothing
is your fault. Like, let's just preface, no one is
to blame her, Shane, he has no right expecting things.

(05:55):
But to your point, as a teenager, you go in going, oh, yeah,
we're going to cut at night.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (06:00):
But then as the adult, we're like, hey, people aren't
as good, right, Like we have to be able to
see the bad in people as well as the good.
And I think what really happens is a couple of things.
One who taught us anything else? Right to your point,
if you've been doing something one way for forty years
and then now all of a sudden, you're like, I
have to learn to walk, you know, even as me
as a millennial personally, I I'm thirty five. Even when

(06:22):
we were children, we were taught hustle, work hard, you know,
go to college, get your degree, you'll be able to
make millions. Now we're in our thirties going none of
that's applying. All of those things that we were taught
are not transferable skills in the world that we're in today.
And so I think what's really interesting is it is
you are relearning. And what we have to also remember
is that there is an inner child that when we
get triggered when we get things like that, if we

(06:44):
were never taught how to stand up for ourselves, how
to say no, how to have boundaries, how to ask
for our needs to be met. Just because you're in
your forties doesn't mean that your inner system understands how
to do that, because the fun fact is your brain
stops growing, like the two and a half three pound
mush in your head, that part of your brain that
stops growing at twenty eight. That doesn't mean you can't

(07:04):
change or evolve, but that's neuroplasticity. From that point on.
At twenty eight, you are done developing as a child
into your adult life.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (07:13):
But really what that also means is by the time
you're twenty eight, you've cemented core beliefs. You've cemented the
way that you believe and think. So moving forward, your
brain doesn't help you grow. It's designed to keep you safe.
Your mind is what helps you grow. Mindfulness, understanding pattern interruption, right,
And so if you're going out into the world as
like a brand new baby, just remind yourself I am
because there's parts of me I've never met, there's parts

(07:35):
of me I've never acknowledged, and there's parts of me
that think they're protecting me by acting in ways that
I knew as a kid, which means allowing bullshit, which
means staying silent, which means allowing someone to love bomb
me because I'm insecure and I'm worried that if I
say something, they're going to leave. When we'd become the
adult and we come back into the room, we can say,
wait a minute, who gives a shit? If they leave?
I need to make sure I don't.

Speaker 5 (07:56):
Damn.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, the neuro I never knew that about twenty eight
years old. Like, if you grow up a total people
pleaser your whole life, your parents teach you people pleasing, smile,
go along, to get along, go with the flow, how
much of that can shift?

Speaker 1 (08:10):
Say, by forty.

Speaker 4 (08:12):
You can absolutely shift it? Like for me, it took
me nine about an year and eight or nine. I
think in my journey something like that with like since
I really started to understand, like, hey, I think there's
something going on to now being like the version of me.
Neuroplasticity is very real, But we also have to remember
it's gonna take a bit of time. And I think
that's what people don't want to hear. They hear, Oh God,
I'm gonna have to do this for a few years.

(08:33):
It's like, well, it took you forty to get to
where you are now, so it's gonna take and I
look at it so fun fact and here's like a
neuroscience fact. It takes three hundred repetitions for your body
to remember a move. So I have to do three
hundred reps at the gym for my body to go,
oh okay, this is the part I activate, and this
is what I turn on. It takes your brain three
thousand repetitions to create a new neural pathway. So if

(08:55):
we're used to saying, you know, the people I date, they,
I'm just gonna say they It's just yeah, argument's sake,
they are such trash, right, we hear like women are crazy,
men are trash, right, all of those norms or this
this and this and this, this and this. What you're
doing is you're cementing that core belief. Even more so
if we want to change that, that means we need
to reframe and say, maybe the people I haven't I
have met thus far aren't great, But that doesn't mean

(09:17):
that I'm not going to meet amazing people coming forward.
You know, moving forward, you need to do that three
thousand times for your brain to start to default, and
instead of going towards the negative, understand, Oh okay, then
we have to go into the inner child work. Are
we understanding the parts of us? Are we giving them
a space to speak and to hold compassion for them?
Are we curious about it? Because I could be forty

(09:37):
five and still acting like I'm six, because I'm so
disconnected from myself. I'm letting that part of my brain
activate and I don't know how to emotionally regulate and
come back to the place I'm at now.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
And like for the friend in the hotel room, let's say, okay,
so now she's there and she's so terrified this guy's
going to break up with her if she doesn't fulfill
the expectation. How what does I mean now she's live
in the part in the scene she.

Speaker 4 (10:03):
And my heart when she told me the story after,
I was like moving forward, I'm like, bitch, you send
me your fucking location and we have a fucking code
word because I would have been there to pick her
up and really, truthfu he told the guy groomed her.
He knew what he was doing, he knew and he
was younger than her, he knew if he said certain things,
like our biggest fear was that she was going to
be you know, that she was going to not consensually

(10:23):
agree to something. And what ended up happening was he
got mad and he started getting volatile with her, like
yelling at her, screaming at her. And she, I hate
to say it, but she did what a lot of
us are used to doing. Let me just get this
done with and she she didn't go all the way,
but she did stuff. She was like, I just needed
to get the fuck out. And it's I've been there.
I have been there. I have had to sleep with

(10:45):
people because I'm terrified if I say no, that this six',
five three hundred pound man is going to do to. Me.

Speaker 5 (10:51):
Yeah, well AND i think that's a similar experience for.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
Women you, know when we're coming out and we're it
feels like a scary space to enter to start dating,
women and you kind of end up going with kind
of whatever's presented.

Speaker 5 (11:03):
To you and you end up in these really like shitty.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
Relationships we say this all the, time like we've been
dating women and we're, LIKE i would never have put
up with this from a.

Speaker 5 (11:12):
Man, no like it's like excusable for someone.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
It's like, Scarcity like you're scared because you're you.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Don't want to, lose you don't want this person to leave,
you and now you're back single.

Speaker 4 (11:22):
Again especially AND i would imagine Now i'm curious your.
Experiences i'm obviously Like I've i've thought about. Women, oh
don't get me, WRONG i.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Think that everybody thinks about Women's. Sabrina, yes like maybe.

Speaker 4 (11:31):
Maybe it's more, fun and So i'm doubt you, know the.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
Record show it is more, fun but Proceed AND i.

Speaker 4 (11:39):
Had a feeling it might be it. Is BUT i
think one thing that we have to look at, too
is like it also depends on the mindset that we're
entering in if the scarcity mindset is, there of, like
oh if this is the BEST i could. Get Now i've,
DECIDED i KNOW i don't want. MEN i like, women,
RIGHT i, Mean i'm, Curious i'm. Excited this feels really. Good,
well then we go into but what IF i never
meet anybody? Else what if? This what if that woman
who accepts me no one? Else? Smite? Right did you

(12:01):
guys ever watch Ninety Day? Fiance do you watch any of?

Speaker 5 (12:03):
THEM i know the. Premise i've watched like a little, bit.

Speaker 4 (12:06):
But so there's one there's a lesbian couple on, there
and they are the epitome of like the, issues, Right
it's like they're Too they met online and they went to,
morning noon and night texting and like twenty four to
seven obsession with each. Other then what. Happens one of
them goes TO i think she was from THE uk
or something like, THAT i can't. Remember one of them goes
over and the girl from here as anxious as anxious

(12:28):
is and the other girls like kind of, secure like
she's kind of looking at this being LIKE i don't
really understand what's going, on what's, Happening like why are
you what are we doing? Here and the other girl
is just everything is like why are you leaving? Me
where are you? Going and it's like, girl the girl's
going to the, bathroom like let her go do her.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Thing oh my, god this is just this.

Speaker 4 (12:47):
Sou less and it's like and what? Happened sure, enough
the first trip is a nightmare and instead of them, going,
hey maybe we should break, up not only did they
Not the other girl comes back to The. States the
one in THE uk sells all of her stuff the
girl and sells everything so that they could get a
van together and move. In, meanwhile the girl in The
states didn't do any of. That she kept her apartment
behind her back because she kept, SAYING i don't know

(13:07):
if it's gonna. Work that's the girl that was love
bombing because she was so, insecure and she, said my
mother left me as a. Child i'm terrified anybody is
going to leave. Me to what. Happened she goes over
to THE. Uk the other girl is open of, LIKE
i sold. Everything she finds out that the other girl
didn't and sure, enough and it's like in the girl's freaking, out,
saying why weren't you honest with? ME i sold my
Life and it's, like but that's where we have to

(13:29):
say both of them are responsible because no one had,
Boundaries no one said, no nobody was critically thinking because
they were both so terrified of you're gonna leave, me
you're gonna abandon, me that they were no longer. Connecting
they were. Attaching and when you, attach what you're telling
is my nervous system is Saying i'm only safe IF
i have, you and if it's a mother, wound if
it's a deeper core. Issue we're going to accept what

(13:49):
we believe we deserve because there's something called repetition. Compulsion
For adie in, term some of the stuff he did was,
okay including, This you are going to date the unhealed
parts of you because there's a conscious part Is let's,
say is this my father's a. Narcissist so IF i
date a narcissist and they tell Me i'm not too
much and That i'm a good girl AND i did everything,
right well then it'll clear all the Pain i've ever
gone through because this narcissist told Me i'm. Fine, well

(14:11):
what ends up? Happening that narcissist ends up reaffirming my core,
beliefs makes ends, up you, know making me feel LIKE
i don't have any, value discarding, me and then it
just ends up repetition. Compulsion, yeah the. Same and how do.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
You ever end up if you keep looking for people
to date to heal this?

Speaker 1 (14:28):
Shit how do you ever end up? Solid you?

Speaker 4 (14:32):
Don't that's. Why then we'll be in marriages that are not.
Happy you end up in relationships that you're not satisfied.
In have you ever seen? Those And i'm sure you
know these people girls GOT i don't care who they,
are the ones that their needs are never fucking, satisfied,
Right like you. Have we all have those friends that you're,
like so the guy texts you five times today and
that's not good, enough and it's, like, oh he didn't
answer your call or she didn't answer they didn't answer

(14:52):
your call for twenty, minutes and you're losing your. Shit
it's not about the other person. Anymore it's about the
story and the narrative we're creating within.

Speaker 3 (14:58):
Ourselves, yeah that's really, interesting what the connection versus, attachment
BECAUSE i think that's just. It we're all we're attaching
to people and mistaking it for connection and then kind
of like your story about the ninety dight, fiance like
one person's you, know keeping their shit solid and the
other one's selling, everything you, Know LIKE i Think ali

(15:18):
AND i.

Speaker 5 (15:19):
Can both attesting in situations like.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
This where we're mistaking that for, connection and it's.

Speaker 4 (15:25):
Just, well you, know that's like how.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Long like sometimes you're dating someone and they're looking for
a quick like real they constantly need reassurance that the
relationship is going in the right, direction and then all
of a, sudden you have a girlfriend and you're, like what?
Happened LIKE i have barely know you, well.

Speaker 4 (15:42):
And that what happened is like that person's outsourcing their emotional, regulation,
right instead of taking accountability and ownership and SAYING i
need to stick in my, shit they're outsourcing that onto.
You you tell me it's going to be. Okay that
is classic anxious, attachment low sense of, self high sense of.
Others if you tell me we're, okay we're, OKAY i
don't trust That i'm going to be ok BECAUSE i
don't trust.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
Myself oh and that's a big responsibility on the Partner like.

Speaker 1 (16:04):
That that.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
Sucks it feels. Overwhelming it feels because the reality is
Then i'm, like, oh so AM i now your? PARENT
i have to parentify. You NOW i have to help.
You it's not reciprocal and it's not an adult, relationship
and it's the same have you. GUYS i don't know
if this has crossed over into the. Community you tell,
Me Princess, Trebit, okay, YEAH.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
I think for.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Sure, yeah you mean like a woman needs to be
like cared for in such a way of Like i'm
getting your, Drink i'm getting your this this plan set
up for us the reservation that they're just waiting to
have the.

Speaker 4 (16:36):
Plan an article reached out of, like, hey could you
chime in on, this AND i was, like, yeah what's?
Up so they sent me the video that kind of
started it, all and it makes me want to cry
because it's just a woman talking about how she was
on a date and she was dating a guy and
that he they went to the restaurant and he, said,
hey could, you, Like i'm gonna go park the, car
could you go in and check in for the. Reservation
Now i'm curious you guys hearing that that sounds pretty, reasonable,

(16:59):
right go?

Speaker 1 (17:00):
Park? Yeah especially because exactly.

Speaker 4 (17:04):
Yeah and her response was that's me living in my
Masculine why DO i have? To and it's, Like i'm, sorry?
What because now what we've done is we've disneyfied. Everything
because let's talk about what is the? Princess, right she'd
never earned anything in her, life she was given everything
by her. Father she needs to be. Saved she's a. Commodity,
Right we'll think Of Princess, jasmine think of all The

(17:24):
disney princesses Of. Cinderell they were. Commodities they Were it's
something that people were trying to either give, off sell, off,
right somebody come and marry my, daughter somebody come and
Get so now we've created this this world now of
LIKE i don't want to, WORK i don't want to
have to do. ANYTHING i want it all done for.
Me why isn't it just? Flowing we have this wildly
unrealistic expectation of what healthy and secure relationships, are thinking, that,

(17:46):
well you should be reading my mind and you should
be attuning to my. Needs and it's like we haven't
learned that you also have to ask for those needs
to be, met and we also have to learn that
communication is really, important but so is comprehension that not
everything is just WELL i met this, woman and she
should just know WHAT i, want AND i SHOULD i
want someone to text me every, day AND i want
someone that does all these. Things because then what you're
doing is you're consistently, outsourcing and that's how codependency, starts
because your nervous system is dependent on them to quill. It.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
Damn, yeah, YEAH i think that is something that like
we have to kind of learn as we're coming out
of as far as, like because there are a lot
of expectations coming from being with men where they were
doing these.

Speaker 5 (18:22):
THINGS i had a girlfriend at one point who had
moved into my.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
Place there was boxes sitting in the hallway and it was,
Like i'm sitting, there like is.

Speaker 5 (18:31):
She going to take these boxes? Out she's waiting for
me to take the boxes down to the.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Dumpster the, man it's so. Obvious it felt probably the.

Speaker 5 (18:37):
Man is, obvious he's going to take the boxes. Down
BUT i was like suddenly, like oh, shit LIKE i.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
Think I'm i'm the, MAN i.

Speaker 4 (18:44):
Know and that's. Why So Charles, DOUHIG i love. Him
he's a communication specialist and he always talks about meta
communication and it's like that's super. Important is like having
conversations about. Conversations, Right so to your, point the, Boxes
my partners are, Saying i'll leave the boxes Because i'm, like, no,
no you, man do this, right you can bring them,

(19:04):
down you take them, Out and he, wasn't and he.
Wasn't he was just leaving them. There and finally he,
said and he was. Honest he looked at me and
he said this entitlement that you Think i'm just gonna
take care of. Everything he was, Like i'm not here
to clean up after. You you're an. Adult he was,
like if those are your, boxes break them. Down and
it was a, conversation and then we had to sit
AND i, said, okay, right it is. Hot he, said.
Soundaries and then we had to sit and, say, okay

(19:24):
you take care of all the, Cooking you do all the,
ears so much better at. It so you know what
my part, Is i'll buy the. Groceries, okay you clean
all of, this if you do the laundry and. Everything
because what's my. Part i'm going to hire the. HOUSEKEEPER
i don't want to have to do. It that's where
we have to say what are our choices here and
how are we actually because here's the THING i don't.
WANT i don't want someone to take care of me
in that sense BECAUSE i had someone that took care

(19:45):
of me as a child and they fucked me up
and they didn't they didn't do the job. RIGHT i
want somebody that can support, me BUT i ultimately need
to be the adult in the room that takes care of,
me because IF i still outsource that to other, people
well then What i'm telling my little IS i still
don't believe in, her AND i still don't trust, her
AND i still don't think that she's worthy of being.
Saved so that's WHERE i have to step in and
talk about. It, Right, hey we just started. Dating i'd

(20:06):
love more communication in between our. DATES i noticed that
you hate. Texting can we bridge the? Gap can we
talk about? This have conversations about what you, need what you,
want what you, desire because you'll get what you, want
which is, them or you get what you, need which is.
Clarity it's a win.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
Win i'm curious what you'd say About Like melissa AND,
i we our lives tend to like follow the same.
Path that's really, uncanny but we both came out of
relationships that were like heartbreaking a little over a year, ago, Right,
melissa maybe a little over a year, ago and we
both find ourselves like dating and we're in relationships and

(20:38):
we're like we're kind of, avoidant like a little, bit
or maybe like feeling like we're not. Sure it's hard to,
say like DO i how AM i? Feeling because you're
so scared after being you don't trust your feelings. Anymore
it's LIKE i did trust my feelings and look where
it landed. Me so it's like you come into the
new thing almost like not only needing, reassurance but also feeling,

(21:02):
like oh, shit when you give me too much, reassurance
Now i'm like pulling. Away and we talk about it a,
lot but it's it keeps you from moving on.

Speaker 4 (21:11):
When i'm glad you brought this, up BECAUSE i think
a lot of people see that as, like, OH i
used to be, anxious Now i'm. Avoiding it's, like that's
not how that. Works what it is is that your
your nervous system is shutting. Down because so we have
something called our window of, tolerance and what that essentially
means is that's the, space like if you think of
it as like literally a, window that's the space of
which we can emotionally. Regulate, right so like we might
feel a little, anxiety but we're still in our window

(21:33):
of capacity that we have a flexible nervous. System when
we get, activated we still have the tools to bring ourselves.
Down what ends up happening is when our window of
tolerance is not, expanded when it's super, small every single
thing sets you either getting super disregulated or shutting. Down
and so really what we have to look at here
is one thing is like you, SAID i don't, trust
it's really THAT i don't trust myself, because like you,

(21:54):
SAID i THOUGHT i had seen it before there THEN
i was, Wrong so Now i'm doubting. Myself so then what.
Happened then we look At i'm, Scared i'm gonna get.
Rejected fear starts to take. Over thank you so much
for bringing to the point Of anxious and avoidant are very.
Similar both of them are terrified of being, abandoned terrified
of being, rejected. Terrified and what. Happens one person goes, Outward,
Hey i'm, Scared please reassure. Me the other one goes inward,

(22:16):
Going i'm fucking. TERRIFIED i can't rely on. Anybody this
is not. Safe IF i open my, Mouth i'm going
to get. Rejected what's the? POINT i might as well
just stay. Silent and what we want to look at
is what it sounds, like is that both of you,
guys and it's really. Valid after you got, hurt it
sounds like your inner child or that part of you was,
like Oh, GOD i never want to feel this. Again
and so a protector part was formed of, like don't,
WORRY i won't let you get hurt ever, again or

(22:37):
maybe there was already a protector part that was there, going, well,
see you didn't listen to me and you didn't let
me teep you. Safe and so what's happening is when
these parts what it so Brit frank calls it mind.
Fusion it's not the that's not the clinical term of,
it because mind fusion is not. That but for argument's,
sake and so what happens is when we have these,
parts if we don't integrate the, parts if we don't,

(22:58):
Learn like for, me, RIGHT i have parts of me
that feel like they're too. Much so when they start to,
flare IF i don't understand how to integrate them into my,
life they're going to take over because they're screaming louder and,
louder being like you're not listening to. Me, okay WELL
i need to be the one that steps. Up but
WHEN i integrate those, parts which MEANS i separate. Them
so mind fusion IS i am, ANXIOUS i am, SCARED
i am. This we are fusing with those parts and

(23:20):
SAYING i am that versus there's a part of me
that's really. Scared right, now let me get curious and.
Understand essentially what you're doing Is i'm the leader inside
out Right i'm the leader of the, board and all
of these are casts of characters that come into my
life for me to understand what's going. On, so if
you had a really bad breakup and what, happens maybe
you had axile parts that are Like i'm so. Stupid the,

(23:41):
shame the, blame the. Guilt those parts are coming, out
and then you're, like, OH i feel so, Terrible and
then we have the protector parts that are, like, well,
yeah because you're an idiot and you didn't listen to,
me AND i need to keep you. Safe you see
how much further away we're getting from ourselves because all
of these different things are coming. Up so if we
really want to move, on then really what the work
is is holding space and compassion so that when those

(24:02):
parts come, of, wow you fairly. Stupid well that makes
so much sense that you'd feel dumb because this person
acted in this. Way but CAN i be clear to
let you know that you're a human and you did
the best you could? Write how CAN i be the
ADULT i didn't have WHEN i was a? Kid how
CAN i be the Person i've always needed to? Be, Like, Hey,
sab you know there's nothing wrong with you that person's
just an, asshole and you're, like, oh, thanks thanks for validating.
ME i felt crazy because if we are not that

(24:25):
voice who steps in all the, parts and then all
of a, sudden you start to feel spiraling and anxious
and sad and scared because you're having this cast of
characters keeping you safe when you're not fighting off the
same tiger that you were when you were a.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
Kid are you actively doing, That sabrina for yourself or
are you doing that with a good friend or like
a good like is your brain, like are you sitting
there Saying, Okay i'm.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Starting to feel scared right.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
NOW i KNOW i need, reassurance but are You you're
not calling a, Friend you're like monitoring it on your.

Speaker 4 (24:56):
Own so there's something called the orbitio there's a part
of your bread right for. That or it's like the
orb orbito. Frontal it's like one of those long terns
And i'm like orbo. Funtal so pretty, much there's a
part of your brain that cannot differentiate between coregulation and self.
Regulation it just knows it needs. It so you can
absolutely hugging a friend will calm that part of your brain,
down but so will self, soothing because self soothing is

(25:18):
showing yourself. Compassion showing yourself compassion released to. Dopamine and
so usually What i'll do is there are, times, right
how many times where you say Something you're, LIKE i
need to call, somebody LIKE i need to you PROBABLY
i need to Call. MELISSA i need to call it right.
Now that is so real because there's a part of,
it so it's, like CAN i just use someone else's
nervous system to calm? Down but then there are other
moments Where i'll be you, know let's say something Like
i'll be online in a, troll will say something and

(25:39):
all of a, Sudden i'm, like oh my, god AM
i gonna lose? Everything And i'll stop And i'm, Like,
sam this person is fucking miserable in their. LIFE i
as if you have a cup of coffee with a.
Friend If melissa called you right now and was, Like
i'm fucking freaking, out would you be, like, yeah because
you're a dumb, bitch like how did you? Call, sometimes
but typically you'd be, like, hey, dude what's coming up for?
You like do you want to talk about? It you
show come passion and curiosity of like, hey do we

(26:02):
have facts to back that? Up or does that sound
like maybe you're talking to your. Dad, okay so you're
talking to dad right, now what do you want to tell?
Him how do you feel about? That where AM i
feeling the? SENSATIONS i sit with it BECAUSE i need
to be my own best friend because IF i understand. Her,
oh she's really. Scared we're going to lose. Everything but
here's my. Choices we've got money in the, Bank we've
got an amazing support, System we've got all of these.

(26:23):
Things you're safe now Because i've got. You and THEN
i can ask that, part what do you need for
me to remove and? Release? Oh you need me to
be nicer to. You that makes total. Sense thank you
for letting me, know because Then i'm not fighting myself
because what we resist persists more often than. Not And
i'm curious both of. You don't bullshit me when you're
going through the. Breakup what was more painful losing them
or the story that you created about the. Breakup that is.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Probably one of the biggest things That i've had to
like regulate in my brain is the story THAT i
had in my head for the longest time of what was.
Happening and of course some of that is because of
what we the things that we talked, about the life
that we had talked, about and then being, like, okay
but she was leaving that life behind long BEFORE i,
Realized and that's WHAT i was attached, to was the

(27:08):
story of like WHAT i thought was going to, happen
and coping with, that mourning that. Loss, no not so much,
her it's it's kind of What i've said, lately is
LIKE i don't want her.

Speaker 5 (27:19):
BACK i just missed that open FEELING i.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Used to, have like the naivete of like the beginning
of a relationship where you're full of, hope hope and.

Speaker 4 (27:28):
Fantasy, right that's a coping. Mechanism it's a coping mechanism
because as a, kid that's how we had to survive
R i don't know about you, guys but for, me
oh my, GOD i had every poster of a boy
band in my. ROOM i listened TO i played. BARBIES
i was anything escapism because IF i could, FANTASIZE i
don't have to deal with the. Reality IF i could,
project oh my, god they're gonna be all of these,
THINGS i don't have to sit with the fact That i'm, like,

(27:49):
Oh i'm really unhappy with my own. Life Oh i'm really.
UNHAPPY i feel really insecure right. Now IF i can
project it onto, THEM i don't have to deal with
what's really coming up for. Me and that's how limerence.
Happens limerence is very, real and it's especially if you HAVE.
Adhd you, know our, brain the brain just works, differently
and when we become obsessive with, somebody it's typically we
have to look at what are we obsessed? With LIKE i,
know for, ME i was. Obsessed oh my, GOD i

(28:10):
was obsessed with this guy WHEN i lived In. Venice
he was, cute don't get me, Wrong but IF i
showed you, him you're not going to be like haah,
Bahaba you're like he's. Okay he was, like you, know he's,
Okay he's. Not every one of my friends was, like,
dude what is it about this? Guy like you haven't
You it's not LIKE i got. Digmatized there was. Nothing
we just kissed.

Speaker 5 (28:26):
One that was.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
It tell people what limerence, is because some of our
listeners probably don't know what that.

Speaker 4 (28:31):
Is So limerens is a coin is a term coined
and some people have never heard of. It it's essentially
just an obsession with somebody that you may have that
you may have never had a relationship, with or very
like early. On you can become limerent once you're in a,
relationship but typically, speaking that's just more like trauma, codependency
maybe even trauma. Bonding, limerens, though is like fantasizing all of. That,
so like an example would BE i had this date

(28:53):
with this, guy AND i was already fantasizing of Like
i'd look at his photos and be, like oh he
went tier a, week could go, There oh maybe if
HE i would already. START i was planning the wedding
in our. HEAD i was mourning in AND i checking my.
PHONE i was. Obsessive and WHEN i started to really
understand and like this guy breadcrumbed. Me he was just
fuck boy. Central but right before the, date my friend
AND i were together AND i, said, oh you, Know

(29:14):
i'm going out with so and so because he was a,
big big deal in the. Area and my friend looked and,
goes good, luck like he'll actually show, up AND i,
said he already confirmed the, Date and even my friend was, like,
really he doesn't ever show, Up so of, course right
now my nervous Syst i'm, like we're gonna. Win we
are gonna win because guess what if he it had
nothing to do with. Him this guy is still, single
he is forty, three he is so and bless. Him nice,

(29:36):
guy but a hot fucking. Mess what it was WAS
i truth be. TOLD i was a. NOBODY i didn't
have my. CAREER i had my clothing line software and
that was. IT i was not even. SUCK i had no.
MONEY i was broke as. Fuck and my thoughts, were
if this guy likes, me who's, Respected i'm then gonna be.
Respected if this guy likes me and he Thinks i'm,
cool then look all of you are going to respect.

(29:56):
Me and if he likes, me then, Look i'm not too.
Much there's not something wrong with. ME i was able
to get the guy AND i could turn. HIM i
could make him from the playboy to. Me and what
ended up HAPPENING i self. ABANDONED i self abandoned instead
of stopping and going, sab this doesn't work for. You
this guy is emotionally. Unavailable he does not have the
chops for. YOU i played into it BECAUSE i was

(30:17):
it was easier for me to focus on. Him than
it was for me to sit with the fact of feeling,
rejected feeling, abandoned and truth be, told feeling stupid THAT
i gave somebody a chance like that who just very
clearly didn't have the chops to show up for. Me
That's limerens in a. Nutshell.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah the self abandoning, TOO i, think is such a
thing in our at, Least i'm sure all over but
our community for, Sure LIKE i see it all the
time with.

Speaker 4 (30:39):
PEOPLE i see it, too especially like AND i feel.
BAD i feel bad in the lesbian community and then
the gay community because like you to the, point what
are the, rules, right like in the gay community and
for the, men, okay well who's going to text to?
First if the guy texts, first, okay well that's solved right.
There and same with the lesbian. Community it's like who's
going to be the one to, say, Hey i'm, sorry
this is moving a little, fast or, HEY i don't

(31:02):
feel comfortable with, this like this speed is not really
something for me because we're operating on, systems especially like
when we talk about, culturally like even, societally in the
last ten, YEARS i, mean gay marriage was just, legalized
what not even fifteen years. AGO i remember being in
years ten years, Right SO i THOUGHT i was like twenty,
thirteen twenty, fifteen something like. THAT i was. THERE i
remember seeing the first couple coming. Down it's still very

(31:25):
new and it's still not socially fully. Accepted AND i
can understand. Why if you grew up feeling like you weren't,
yourself you couldn't be, yourself and your body something felt,
disconnected then it's going to make total sense that this
would be anxiety inducing because you've always been rejected for
who you, are and now you're hoping that when you're finally,
yourself you'll be, seen and that's really. Scary, Yeah AND.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
I think that's like that goes into kind of what
we're experiencing and coming out later is like relearning. Yourself you,
know a lot of us having been married to, men
it felt almost performative in some ways and just trying
of like matching what'sc axiety expected of, us and then
to come out and then be, Like, okay but who
AM i? Really how DO i? Act what DO i

(32:07):
want in a? Relationship who AM i attracted? To even
a lot of like for, ME i didn't THINK i
was gay for a very long time because the lesbians
THAT i, SAW i was, like That's i'm not attracted to.

Speaker 5 (32:17):
THAT i didn't identify with how they, looked you. Know
SO i think there's a lot of.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
Us like we mentioned the adolescence, thing it's that's what
it feels.

Speaker 5 (32:25):
Like it feels like being fifteen again and being, like,
well what what clothes DO i? Like you, know who
AM i attracted?

Speaker 2 (32:32):
To it's it's and even while you show up like the,
standard like IF i would meet a man WHEN i was,
straight it's.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
Like, obvious man likes, woman woman likes.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
Man like You're you're instantly in a situation that clearly
this might be romantic where it's like you're around women
and you're like the set point is.

Speaker 5 (32:50):
Friendship oh my, god the way THAT i have like row, Relationships.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
I'm, like how do this isn't how does? It it's hard.

Speaker 4 (32:59):
To navigate that one hundred, percent especially because friendships are weird, too,
right and you're weird, Too, yeah friendships into your ADULT
i just did an episode on that of like friendships
are strange in your adult, life especially Like i've met
people And i'm, like do you want to be? FRIENDS i,
mean look at. Me i'm, LIKE i don't know how
else to do. This i'm, LIKE i don't want to
go home, Alone so, like do you want to be
friends with? Me but you, know it's, INTERESTING i, Think,
melissa to your, point we're also describing really. Beautifully is

(33:23):
that whole you? Know AND i think you're already kind
of doing the. Work but something to really get curious
about is when something comes. Up and so here's like
a quick hack of, like if you really want to
understand what's happening within you when something comes up and you, say,
MAN i feel Like i'm. FIFTEEN i want you to
do a couple of. Things ONE i want you to
stop and say and where DO i feel that sensation
in my? Body? Right because so that's WHY i love
yoga and breathwork and, meditation not because they're fun, buzzwords

(33:45):
but because they help you connect mind to body. Connection
when we're just in our brain trying to intellectualize, everything
we're not actually connected to our. Body and then that's
why you know you could feel a pain in your
chest and UNTIL i, understand, Oh i'm just, Regulated i'm
going to just be Like i'm, Scared i'm, anxious give
me my. Medication so the first THING i want us
to do, Is, okay, WHOA i feel that fifteen year
old right here in my. Chest, oh she's in my.

(34:06):
Sternum this is actually where your vegus nerves. Live so
if you start to feel things in here here and along,
down' that's. Anxiety that's your nervous system being. Activated great.
Cool same with shoulders being test a, tense jaw. Clenched
those are all for. Me When i'm, DISREGULATED i get
this wave of heat all of a, sudden like it's
like someone just blasted me with a blower And i'm, like,
OOOH i feel. It so that's my body's adrenaline and

(34:30):
way of, knowing, hey you're not. Safe it doesn't mean
that there's validity to, it, Right what do you Mean
i'm not? Safe this person's they're. Fine THEN i want
you to start to, say, OKAY i feel like i'm fifteen.
Again that's the part of you that's trying to protect
you right. Now so If i'm, offline let's Say i'm
justsregulated and we've all done, this you react instead of.
Respond you might say something and then or you you,
know you get the email and you're, like fuck, them

(34:50):
and then two hours later you're, like, oh wasn't that? Bad?
Right you reread it and you're, like, oh they didn't
actually say. THAT i just saw Because i'm reading it
As i'm against, you, Right, oh this is my partner
and we're with each, other so taking the pause, huge
but then really Understanding, OKAY i feel Like i'm, fifteen.
Right and so an example is an in real. Time
WHEN i first dared Dating, RYAN i, said, hey, babe

(35:11):
do you want to do? Something and he just went,
no and like. Yeah to a lot of, people they'd be,
like what's the big deal he said? No oh to,
me that was it the wave of HEAT i started.
ALL i was just sitting there AND i was, like that's.
It he's leaving me What AND i was like where
did this come? From SO i already knew WHEN i
sat there AND i, said, Sup, brina how weld do you?
Feel AND i was, LIKE i feel Like i'm fucking?
Seven AND i said, Okay and what? HAPPENED i, SAID
i feel Like i'm talking to. DAD i was, like

(35:32):
there it, is AND i was, like because my dad
is very. Dismissive, Okay so what happened it's not that
my partner said. NO i felt. DISMISSED i didn't feel. Heard,
okay that's, valid doesn't mean that my partner did anything.
Wrong so WHEN i said, THAT i, said, Okay, SAB
i know that that feels Like. Dad but this Is.
Ryan this Isn't. Dad and what do you need from?
Me you need me to speak up because you're. Scared
you got a. Baby i'm gonna speak up for. Us

(35:52):
AND i turned To ryan AND i, said CAN i
share something with? You and he was, like of, course
that's our code. Word CAN i share something with you
is code for hey or to avoid. Resentment i'd like to.
Share we both know phones, down look at each other
AND i, SAID i want to. Preface you didn't do anything,
wrong so please don't think that this is me attacking.
You he's more. AVOIDANT i don't need to get him
set up Of ti tisk little. Boy BUT i, said
when you said, THIS i felt really. Triggered it made

(36:13):
me shut down because growing, up IF i asked for
my needs to be met for my, dad he would
just go and walk. Off and it felt really. Dismissed
i'm not asking you to, change but WHAT i am
saying is moving? Forward could you just say no and
maybe just give me a, reason or like, no why
don't we do it? Later or, no, Babe i'm just
not in the mood right, NOW i, Said because then
that WAY i don't have to guess your true meeting.
Intentions and he looked at me and he was like

(36:34):
one hundred. Percent he was, like thank you so much
for telling me we've never had this issue. Again and
that's WHAT i mean by in the moment WHEN i
get shut, DOWN i want to understand how old DO i?
Feel because IF i were to go what fuck? You
then fine really or walk off and be like, FINE
I i don't need to do, this that would be
the little girl that's coming up going this is dad.
Attack but THEN i had to be the adult to, say, hey,

(36:54):
baby this Isn't, dad this is your. Partner he hasn't
done anything wrong to. You you're valid and it's also.
Real what do you need from me right? Now for
us to know That i've got your back and you
don't need to protect me because her protecting me is
old coping mechanisms that are, outdated AND i get to
be the one to let her know we don't have
to do that. Anymore Does ryan do that?

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Back, like does he have things where he does it?

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Back or is it like you're this this character and
he's this. Character you're the one who needs the, thing
he's the one who fixes.

Speaker 4 (37:21):
It so we have a bit of a balance right,
now like because of his avoidant leaning for, him his
needs are different than. Mine for, him his needs are
could we have more? Space? Right can we have more time?
Apart and he loves so like we have that balance
because in the, workday, Right i'm here with you, guys
and Then i'm gonna go on calls all. Day by
the TIME i talk to him, again it might not
be until three o'clock in the. Afternoon his needs are.
Met but really what it is is like we both,

(37:43):
acknowledged AND i, think to your, POINT i have more.
NEEDS i have more needs that he because more so
Because i'm a very like when you have the high,
anxiety we learn how to attune to people's needs. Quicker
we learn how to be more. Giving, right we have
baselines of things That i'm working on as, well my
boundaries of saying, No i'm not just. Overgiving but BECAUSE
i can attune to his needs a little bit easily

(38:04):
more easily BECAUSE i learned that from my dad of, like,
oh he looks he just rolled his. Eyes, okay give
him a, minute, right instead of it being, like you're
not going to tell me what you, Need SO i
think we've gotten. Now but he will do, That he'll
say to avoid, resentment CAN i? Share and he'll be,
like you know, WHAT i asked you for five minutes
and you didn't give that to. Me and NOW i
feel like you didn't respect me WHEN i told YOU
i was offline AND i was feeling really, activated And i'm, like,

(38:25):
whoa you're. RIGHT i, Apologize like what are your? Needs
you need me to give you? TIME i. Apologize you're,
RIGHT i didn't respect you in that.

Speaker 5 (38:31):
Moment, YEAH i think that's.

Speaker 3 (38:33):
Huge like that's one of the things That i've kind
of learned since coming out because really being married to a,
man there weren't a.

Speaker 5 (38:39):
Lot of like activating situations for.

Speaker 3 (38:41):
Me you know, It like as much AS i loved
him to the capacity THAT i could at the, time you,
KNOW i wasn't like as emotional AS i can be
now with a, woman and So i've had to learn
to be, like, okay, pause like let's digest this And
i'll tell Whoever i'm, dating you, know like. THAT i
need these moments sometimes BECAUSE i need to. PROCESS i

(39:04):
need to, think like where is this coming? From SO
i know that these are things That i'm like taking
away from your listening to your podcasts and your words
and being, like you're. Right you, know this is that
little fifteen year old that who mom was making fun
of WHAT i was, wearing you, know like those kind of.
Things so it's it's it is interesting how well that can.

Speaker 5 (39:25):
Work to just.

Speaker 4 (39:25):
Take a bee the pause has changed my. LIFE i
used to be so, Reactive LIKE i don't know if
you guys are Watching Love, island every one of their mother,
is but there's the one girl on, there and she's incredibly,
volatile like she just pops off like she the guys
had said something she, had like she's like fuck you
stupid bitch and like going off and you're, like, oh
you're not. Stable that WAS i was from zero to

(39:47):
one hundred like. That My mama always, Said, sabrina it's
not the, message it's your. Delivery and NOW i am
a different PER i, Mean I'm i'm still spicy AND
i still have my. Shit but now when someone says,
Something i'll, okay AND i look And i'm, like who
AM i dealing? With or to your, point, Right i've heard,
this especially in the lesbian, community trauma dumping right of

(40:07):
like first or second date or EVEN i had a
friend of mine went out with a girl and she
was saying it was a lesbian, situation and the girl was,
saying you, know, well you're not gonna ghost, me right
like all the PEOPLE i did always ghost. Me and
the girl sitting there and she's, like, DUDE i don't
know you like and then the girl was, like you,
know and my last boyfriend did this and then my
dad used to do this all within the first. Date
and she was, like, dude this makes me feel really.
Uncomfortable and then what. Happened the girl started, saying you're

(40:28):
you don't respect, me you don't appreciate, me you don't
care about. Me and it's like those are all trauma,
responses and that's called protest behavior because what happens is that,
girl the anxious. One she was coming in AND i
don't think she's a bad person at. ALL i don't
think she's a bad. PERSON i don't think she's. MALICE
i think she's a hurt, individual but she was trying
to expedite the intimacy. Connection, look IF i share with
you all of these things about me and you accept, it,

(40:50):
great then you're not gonna judge me for. It and, look,
look look we're closer now because you know all of
my fuck up problems and you're not leaving. Me and
then when she perceived a brave a threat to the
connection of the person saying, hey well this feels really.
INTENSE i don't know you very. WELL i don't know
how to support. You protest behavior started. Happening and then
it was because she's hoping IF i act, out you're
gonna then reconnect with. Me as a, child that, worked,
right your parents say, something you scream and, cry they

(41:12):
come back to. You, LOOK i got the connection. Back
it doesn't work in your adult. Life so if somebody's
gonna come in and trauma dump and start SAYING i
want you to be my girlfriend after one date saying, no,
hey that feels like a. Lot if that bruises their
ego or that makes them act, out you already know
this person doesn't have the emotional regulation techniques and. Tools
i'm going to require to be in a healthy and
secure relationship with.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
Them, YEAH i see that all the.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
TIME I, mean our listener is right in about that
all the. TIME i think that's, like it is so.
Common it's LIKE i need to make a scene to
get you to kind of soothe me in some way
and stick, around which also kind of leads me to
another thing THAT i we notice as like the people
who you aren't interested in the woman until they're about

(41:55):
to leave, you and then it's, like oh my, god
oh my, god don't leave.

Speaker 5 (41:59):
Me I'm i'm way.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
IN i want you. Back like that.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
Dynamic of like, yeah like they you're, not you kind
of blow them, off, breadcrumb breadcrumb until they're about to,
leave and now all of a, sudden you're the love
of my.

Speaker 4 (42:10):
Life and we know how unsustainable that. Is it's, like
wait a. Minute that's the same as, like, oh, WELL
i want to play the. GAME i want to play
the cool, girl and you're, like you play the, game
you're gonna get. Players you can't be shocked that when
you play a, game who's going to invest in that
game with? You because in that, dynamic that's a childhood
core belief right. There so IF i show, you IF
i pretend Like i'm not, interested and then you're gonna
come back to.

Speaker 3 (42:30):
Me.

Speaker 4 (42:30):
Great what do you think is going to happen when
they come? Back do you think that all of a
sudden they're, like oh my, GOD i realize, no because
what happens is their nervous system got triggered and activated
and they, thought, Oh i'm going to lose. Them oh my,
God i'm not going to have. THEM i need. Safety
it's not actually about you and the, connection because if
it was about you and the, connection then they wouldn't
have been disinterested to begin. With but what it is
is that when you come on and you're, healthy, Right,

(42:50):
HEY i like. You we had a great. Date i'd
love to see you. Again they bread, Crumb, Hey i'd
love to check in with. You right when you're showing
up authentically and you're, consistent you're. Reciprocal what happens is
to somebody whose core beliefs Are i'm not worthy of
deserving of, MORE i have to earn, love they're looking at, that,
going this is too. Easy what do you mean you like?

Speaker 5 (43:07):
Me?

Speaker 4 (43:08):
Yeah it's. Unhealthy is just as triggering as, healthy and
that's why people say health equals. Boring, no it's just
that your nervous system is, inactivated and then what, Happens
you're about to leave me trigger, right and then they
go into. PERFORMATIVE i have to earn your love, back
and then they get, it and THEN i feel. SUFFOCATED
i didn't really, Right you see that dynamic play out
because it was never about the. Person it was about

(43:28):
how the other person felt by their, absence.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
And how do you heal?

Speaker 2 (43:31):
That like how if you recognize that pattern or, like
let how do you start to address that if you're
on the unhealthy side of, that where it's like my
nervous system only feels normal when it's.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
TRIGGERED i guess.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
Like i'm not saying that about, Me i'm just saying in,
general like what's the work?

Speaker 3 (43:47):
There?

Speaker 4 (43:48):
Oh the work is the same AS i think kind
of where everybody else is like taking a pause and
getting curious of, like what's the narrative That i've built
around love right THAT i have to earn? It, okay
where DID i learn that? From? Oh as a, kid
IF i didn't perform for my? Mom, Right, Like i've
one CLIENT i love him and he had a dad
that was incredibly hard on, him like if he as a,
kid if he so much is late on the couch

(44:08):
at like it Was World war three and the dad
was calling him names and putting him. Down this kid
was out on the working with his dad for nine ten, hours,
exhausted and then the next day it was back on.
It it was the moving target was never, enough and
so sure enough he, feels IF i don't, PERFORM i
don't deserve. Love so when someone loves him, freely he
just doesn't know what to do with. It he's, like
what are you talking? ABOUT i didn't earn. This and

(44:29):
so the work that we're doing is to let his
inner child know you don't have to perform to be.
Loved that this is what safety feels. Like that think
about your, friend, right you have a best, friend you
guys that when you're, together you're, LIKE i don't have
to perform for. HER i could just BE i could
just say that's stopping and saying to your nervous, system
we deserve. This this is what safety feels. Like it's
rewriting the story that we've created because for, ME i

(44:50):
always THOUGHT i had to earn. Love i'm too, much
But i'm not, Enough, right that's the child of a.
Narcissist i'm too. Much that's why they keep, leaving But
i'm not enough because they won't. Stay and so that
DYNAMIC i really had to. Learn, okay where DID i
learn that? From how? Old DO i? Feel? Okay, well
how CAN i be there to support myself and let
myself know, that, hey they're allowed to, leave that doesn't
mean there's anything wrong with. Me and if we're in that,

(45:10):
dynamic take the. Pause AM i doing this BECAUSE i
genuinely care about? Them? Okay list me five reasons THAT
i want to be in a relationship with this. Person
and if all five, are they make me feel. Safe
they do this for. Me they do, that so it's
not actually about, them it's what they do for. You
and So i've seen. THAT i asked my. Part we
almost broke, up maybe like seven or eight months. Ago
it was just one of those moments that you're, like,
HEY i don't know if we can move past. This

(45:32):
and his therapist told, HIM i want you for thirty
one days to write the reasons you love. Suprein every,
morning write one, reason and he was not allowed to
use any of the THINGS i do for him so
it couldn't be, well she makes me comfortable around, this,
okay but that's not then you love me for WHAT
i do for, you but you don't love me for
the person THAT i. Am and so we then have to, say,

(45:52):
okay well they're so, thoughtful list three things that make them.
Thoughtful because then when we, challenge LIKE i had a
FRIEND i did that to her and she was hard
being over this, guy harping over, him and she's going,
on if we have these deep, conversations we have, connection
we do all, this And ryan just stopped to. Go
he asked her who do you have deep connections? About
who do you have deep conversations? About and she, said,

(46:12):
WELL i tell him. Everything and he said And ryan,
said and what does he do? Back and she stopped
and she's, like oh my, GOD i just realized you're.
Right he tells me he's not, comfortable he doesn't want
to talk about. It he changes the. Subject and then she.
Realized she's, like we don't really have a deep. CONNECTION
i have. Depth we haven't connected and she was, like
oh my, god he hasn't shared. Anything and it became
clear to, Her i'm connecting on the idea of him

(46:33):
but it's BECAUSE i don't FEEL i want to feel
Like i'm not too. Much and so IF i share
AND i share AND i share and they're still, there
look See i'm not too. Much but that's not actually
connecting with. Them and so that's why we have to
stop and, say is this about who they? Are because
IF i do this to them, again that's not? Fair
or is it about what it does for? Me because
then if it's what it does for, me well then
THEN i have to take ownership and, say, well Then
i'm not going to reach out to them because that's

(46:54):
not for the right. Intentions but do you see how
much self awareness that?

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Takes damn, yeah because it's Like i'm even trying to
do that, now like give because it is so easy
to just feel, like well they're so they're so kind
because they cooked me this meal or everything is like
a service, thing, right it's.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
Hard to like dig in on the app start to.

Speaker 4 (47:13):
Ask, yourself how DO i feel When i'm with? Them
do you feel do you feel? Seen heard and? Understood,
okay IF i feel? Seen what makes me feel seen
that WHEN i walk in they? Know like With, ryan
what made me feel really seen was THAT i told
HIM i don't really eat lunch Because i'd get so
busy in the day that all of a, Sudden i'm,
like oh my, god it's six. O'CLOCK i haven't eaten.
Today and BEFORE i even after our second, date WHEN
i was, leaving he, goes, oh by the way, here

(47:33):
AND i, said what's this and he, GOES i packed you.
Lunch you mentioned on our first date that you don't eat,
enough SO i wanted to make sure THAT i made
you lunch for.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Tomorrow damn.

Speaker 4 (47:40):
Wow AND i was, like, oh, wow thank. You that
made me feel very. Seen he's. Thoughtful he thinks of me, great,
right or WHEN i say something he'll. Validate, okay that
makes me feel. Seen that's WHAT i mean by, like
what tangible steps DO i have to show that this
perchase and makes Me. Otherwise if we're like they're, thoughtful
what makes them? Thoughtful, well they were nice to the, waiter,
okay doesn't necessarily make them. Thoughtful that just makes them

(48:02):
that they're not an.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
Asshole yeah, right it's like the bare, minimum yeah, Exactly
and we romanticize the fuck out of that.

Speaker 5 (48:08):
When you say someone's like you said.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
Your partner was, avoidant leaning, like are we all a
little bit?

Speaker 4 (48:15):
Something everybody there was So Amir, levine the writer Of,
Attached he came out recently and SAID i was one
way too hard on the. Avoidant he, said WHEN i
wrote the, BOOK i didn't understand them, enough and he
was ADMITTED i was way too hard on. Them second
thing he brought that fifty percent of the population is.
Secure now recently he came out and, said wildly and,
correct wildly and. Correct in my, life my adult, LIFE

(48:38):
i have met one person that is. Secure And i'm
talking like. Truly this girl never attacks herself because when
you meet her, family you're, LIKE i see, WHY i see.
Why they are the epitome of, like, wow you guys
all like actually like each. Other you support each other
like it's. Wild she never doesn't have a, boyfriend but
she's like very healthy about, it Like i've never met
a G i, mean she's stunningly. Beautiful she'll leave a

(49:00):
date and be, like, oh it was. Fun IF i
see him, again cool and if, not what are you gonna? Do,
okay you want to go out tomorrow? Night And i'm,
like you're not thinking of? Him and she's, like why WOULD?
I it's his loss wild do you know WHAT i?
Mean like you're? Whoa so, uh here's a fun. Fact
anxious or avoidant and avoidant or anxious all of us.
Are why are anxious? Avoidant why you? Ask we're avoiding
doing the deeper. Work we're avoiding sitting with. Ourselves we're
avoiding taking a, pause we're avoiding getting. Deeper, no it's, Them,

(49:24):
well he didn't text, me and she didn't do, this
and she didn't do. That, okay but what about? Me
and then avoidant they're also. Anxious they are. Free you
meet more avoidant. People they are like riddled with. Anxiety
they just don't know how to communicate about. It the
REASON i say avoidant leaning is because attachment styles can,
change and too many people self, identify, Well i'm anxious. Attachment,

(49:44):
okay so you have no accountability or ownership in this.
Dynamic SO i say he's avoidant leaning because we've earned our.
Security but his baseline is to go. Inwards my baseline
is to come. Outwards so that doesn't mean that we
can't still grow and fluctuate in, everything but that's his,
way that's his Perceived and to be, fair SOMETIMES i
get avoidant. Too Sometimes i'll shut down and he'll look

(50:05):
at me and he's, like are you gonna talk to?
Me And i'm, LIKE i can't even form a sentence
right now BECAUSE i just shut. Down it's really, then
is he?

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Scared does he get into he's scared of losing you
like A sabrina might break up with?

Speaker 4 (50:15):
Me? Oh, yeah we've talked about. That he cried the
other day and he was, Like i'm so terrified of losing.
You AND i, said, well what do you? Do he.
Goes THEN i get in my head even more and
THEN i start to. Overthink and that's my point of,
like we have this villainization that avoidants are terrible. People
they are struggling so hard of their own. Way it's
just a different way than, ours and there's the difference
explanation or, excuse, Right And i'm SURE i don't know

(50:37):
if you guys have heard. THIS i hear the, anxious
especially the anxious, girlies of, like, well why DO i
have to be the one to? Change why doesn't the?
Avoidant and it's, like, no, bitch no one said that
you have to be the only. One what's your part in?
This your part in this is learning how to? Pause
your part in this is taking a. Beat your part
in this is challenging your. Narrative their, part what's their?
Part their part is learning to come closer during, discomfort

(50:59):
learning that safety MEANS i can't express. Myself both people
have a job to. Do what are they doing about?

Speaker 5 (51:05):
IT i think so.

Speaker 3 (51:06):
Many people have a hard time admitting to being an,
avoidant and like that's something THAT i don't don't, GOSH
i have such a weird relationship with detachment styles BECAUSE
i know it's different in every relationship for, me and
to realize That i'm an avoidant right now and kind.

Speaker 5 (51:22):
Of how to address.

Speaker 3 (51:23):
THAT i know it's because of my, past my past,
relationship you, know BUT i think it is kind of
Like ali always, says like name the. Monster that's the,
monster you, know.

Speaker 4 (51:33):
And what are your secondary? Gains? Right start to think
about what are my secondary? Gains so If i'm leaning more, avoidant,
right So i'm shutting down a, lot what are my secondary? Gains?
Okay what feelings AM i? Avoiding cicky? With what reality
is AM i? Avoiding? Acknowledging, okay, well so then what's the. Issue,
okay if it's that this woman is being really, thoughtful
she's being, really she's being, great, right there's no issues

(51:54):
with the other. Person, well then what the issue? Is
so what AM i? Avoiding? Feeling that Maybe i'm actually
not good enough to deserve? This there something is wrong with.
Me but maybe she doesn't have value if she sees. Mine,
okay well those are my secondary? Gains or AM i? Solf,
yeah that's that's What i'm avoiding. Feeling i'm avoiding. Feeling
i'm scared of getting fucking. Hurt i'm scared that IF
i actually open, Up i'm scared THAT i don't trust,
myself that MAYBE i am misreading. This so it's easier

(52:15):
for me to shut down and avoid than it is
for me to sit with my emotions and, feelings because
then that means, FUCK i have a.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
Choice BUT i That's, Sabrina you're hitting on something because
it's like, maybe, yeah like, subconsciously like you don't think
you're why does this person just like me this?

Speaker 1 (52:30):
Much it's like you just why do you like me this?
Much what's?

Speaker 2 (52:33):
Wrong like it does make you feel Like i'm Not
Maybe i'm not good enough and they're going to find
that out the longer this goes. On but they just
keep showing up liking me and wanting to be with.
Me this is weird And i'm Not i'm not good.

Speaker 4 (52:45):
Enough goes against your core beliefs all your. Life, right
we've been bred that this is the problem with. Me
and then you meet someone GOING i don't think that's
a problem with, you and you're, like, wait, what you're
full of? Shit?

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Yeah what do you?

Speaker 4 (52:55):
Mean it's not? Right you're, LIKE i don't believe. You,
YEAH i don't full of shit because we pre jeck
that onto. Them that little inner child is, going no
one's ever liked. You, no that's the protector, part, right
no one's ever liked. You they think you're a fucking.
Loser and that's. Why and that's where we have to.
Stop so what are we? Avoiding we're avoiding going back
and talking to that. Part what are we? Avoiding BECAUSE
i feel Like i'm in middle? School what happened WHEN
i was in middle? School too painful to go back?

Speaker 5 (53:15):
To?

Speaker 4 (53:16):
Ah there it. Is it's not actually about the other,
person it's what they are. Of what's the story THAT
i don't want to? Face start to get?

Speaker 3 (53:22):
Curious, DAMN i love, It, Sabrina you're so, Brilliant, like, yeah,
truly we appreciate you taking the time to come on
and talk with, us LIKE i could talk to you
for like all day.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
Long now you're like the girlfriend everybody. NEEDS i have
one more little THING i want to point out that
you said. THAT i just think it's a killer fucking dating,
advice which Is sabrina and one of your shows talked
about like if you're going on a, date many times
you're like sitting there THINKING i want this person to like,
me So i'm going to like make them like, Me
and really it should be more DO i like? You
LIKE i should be on the date thinking DO i

(53:54):
want to be sitting here with this? Person AND i,
think like that was such a, Turning LIKE i thought
about that because you're right like EVERYONE i, know you
show up for the, DATE i hope they like, Me
and really that's it's the.

Speaker 4 (54:05):
OPPOSITE i don't go to a job interview being LIKE
i hope they like. Me, NO i hope THAT i
align with this job Right Like I'M i always, SAY
i am the founder of my company And i'm hiring THE,
ceo the most important position that there isn't a company
outside of the fucking. Founder AM i just going to
give that position to someone because we had one good? Interview?

Speaker 1 (54:23):
Yeah fuck.

Speaker 4 (54:23):
NO i want to see. THEM i want to vet.
THEM i want to see. THEM i saw one thing
that was really beautiful was they, said if you're hiring
A ceo for your, company always make sure you go
out to dinner with their, partner BECAUSE i want to
see how do they treat the partner in their? Life
how do they treat, women how do they? Write how
do they treat the other? Person are they? Respectful do
they put them? Down do they act as if they're
not really? There because Then i'm not going to probably

(54:44):
have you on because how much of a team player are?
You and so we have to. SEE i want to
see you in different. ENVIRONMENTS i don't really care if
you like, me because then that Means i'm seeking external.
VALIDATION i care how DO i feel When i'm with?
You how does my nervous system? Feel DO i feel
safe and? Secure DO i feel really? Unsure DO I
i feel like this person has actual qualities THAT i
could have a future. With what are my non? Negotiables

(55:04):
what are THINGS i used to accept That i'm no
longer willing to? Look how much more. Curious we can
get about ourselves more so than do they like, me
BECAUSE i don't really give up a shit if they like.
YOU i care if you like.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
You, YES i love.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
This that is the perfect like the advice for people,
dating especially in our. Community, sabrina thank, you thank, you
thank you for coming.

Speaker 4 (55:21):
On thank you guys for having. ME i apologize about the,
snaffoo but we fucking did it And i'm for you.

Speaker 3 (55:25):
Guys, Yep, YES i love it so great to talk with.

Speaker 4 (55:28):
You. Yes, likewise have a Great.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
Greek, hi.

Speaker 5 (55:31):
Guys.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
BYE i want to support The Lesbian chronicles.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
Podcast rate us.

Speaker 4 (55:38):
And write a review On apple podcast Or.

Speaker 5 (55:40):
Spotify we love listener.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Feedback if you'd like to share your, story email us
At melissa And ali at gmail dot.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
Com That's MELISSA. M. E L i S a And
ALI A. L L i at gmail dot.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
Com or follow us On instagram At Lesbian chronicles