September 21, 2025 • 41 mins
TRIGGER WARNING: This episode touches on religious trauma.
Anna joins the show to share part two of her coming out story following her experience as a Christian missionairy in The Middle East.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/lesbian-chronicles-coming-out-later-in-life--5601514/support.
Anna joins the show to share part two of her coming out story following her experience as a Christian missionairy in The Middle East.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/lesbian-chronicles-coming-out-later-in-life--5601514/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Ali.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I came out after twenty years of marriage and I
have three kids.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
and victories.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
That come with it when coming out feels like the
end of the world, but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This is the Lesbian Chronicles. Welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles.
Where we left everybody on such a cliffhanger.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
And you know, it was a good one.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
It was a good one.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
When I listened back, I literally was like, first of all,
now I've heard the story different way, like a couple times,
and I every time get something new out of it.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, where I'm like, holy shit.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
But before we get back to it with Anna Christy,
who were so excited that she was willing to come
back on, we just want to mention it again in
October eighteenth in Seattle. Get your tickets. We are super pumped.
We have a couple great guests already lined up that
are going to come speak. And it's not too late
for the early bird, is it.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Melissa?
Speaker 4 (01:13):
I think today actually is Today's the.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Last day Okay, So today's the last day to order
get your tickets, and tickets are.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Still on sale. They'll also be on sale at the door.
Like and again, the details are on our website, Lesbian
Chronicles podcast dot com. It pops up right away and
you can buy your tickets through event right too. It's
a secure site.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
So and then I should say that stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Social Queer is an organization in Seattle that's going to.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Host the first hour. So if you're coming by.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yourself, this is an organization that essentially will get the
conversations going, get intros made, like do not sweat coming
by yourself, this is the event to do that if
you need to, Like, don't.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Feel like she's a pro, Like if she sees you
standing alone, she's going to make sure that you're connecting
with other people. That's her purpose, that's what she does
in Seattle. So we're really happy to have her on.
And like Ali said, we've We've lined up two more
people to come on during our portion and I'm so
stoked about it. So it's going to be the best time.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Likewise, all right, well let's let's get into it, because
that's what the people really want.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Anna Christy welcome.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Back, Thank you so much, and thanks again for having
me back.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Let's get back in the pool with the hot girl, right,
but I get back in the pool with the hot girl.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
With the exactly yeah. Sorry, we're in BALI and I
have just been kissed by this woman, and I think that,
you know, there's a few outcomes of what could have
happened next, but I feel it's important to remind you
of the context of I was very, very committed to
(02:55):
my faith, and you know, at this point, I believe
I was thirty years old. I hadn't had a single,
you know, in air quotes homosexual thought since I was
nineteen and gave my life to Jesus. And so I
had this full color moment of like the lights are
all on, I'm experiencing something in my body that I've
(03:19):
never felt in the context of relationship with my husband.
And I did not have the realization in that moment
of oh wow, I must be gay. The realization that
I had in that moment was my body is now awake.
I'm feeling fireworks, and then the fear of God sets
(03:44):
on me. So I told her, you know, very very
shortly after the kiss, we heard the gate unlock, and
both of our husbands came back in, and so it
was a very there wasn't much time for coversation, and
we both went to our separate rooms that we were
staying in with our husbands, and she was sending me
(04:08):
text messages through the night, just saying like that was incredible.
You know, I think I'm in love with you and
this sort of thing, and I was just riddled so
much internal conflict, just the fear of God, the fear
of what had just happened.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
She's not having that. It sounds like she's a little
braver in this moment.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Yeah, okay, And I was unaware that I was like
number ten and a long list of you know, female
trysts that she had this, and so this was sort
of familiar, familiar to her, whereas for me, this was
very disruptive. And so the next morning I didn't respond
(04:52):
to the text messages. The next morning, wait, you didn't respond? No?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Oh, I was just okay, You're I know, is she
like fuck, I'm gonna be so embarrassed at breakfast.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
So I'm like, I'm more impressed by your integrity with
your relationship with.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
God, Like damn, that's it. Yeah, Well, you know, you
have to think about the frame of mind I was in,
like for someone who's willing to risk their life to
go to Iraq and share the gospel, and go to
Libya and share the gospel and now and oman, you know,
this is a person who has deep, deep commitment to
their faith path. And so the next morning we all
(05:30):
went to breakfast at this beach club and I asked her, Hey,
can we go for a walk, And so we walked
down the beach where it was just just she and
I and I turned and looked at her and I said,
you need to understand that this can never ever happen again.
(05:53):
I am a Christian and this is not something. We
don't have extramarital affairs, and we certainly don't have them
with people of the same gender, and so this is
not something that can happen again. And so you kind
of see that transition I talked last time about to
exist as a gay person inside of this hyper evangelical ecosystem,
(06:17):
I had to divorce my head in my heart. So
you can see how overnight I went back up into
my head and said this can never happen again. And
from there, uh, you know, we finished the stay in Bali.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And what was her response to that very clear messaging
on you know, it's a double homicide for me. Not
only are you a woman, but it's unfair. What was
was she like, oh yeah, sorry, or was she like
trying to sell you?
Speaker 4 (06:47):
I think for someone of sort of her socioeconomic level
or position, she has heard no very few times got
in her life, and so I think it was shocking
to her and maybe also a bit of like a
challenge like yeah, I'll get you, I'll get you to
fallow from me and Simon girl. But all that to say,
(07:09):
I uh, you know, we flew back to Oman and
I called our pastors in Waco, Texas, and I said, hey,
I need to make you aware of something that occurred.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Wow, you're trying to cure your conscience.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
I'm trying to, yes, yes, maintain my Christian integrity and
just do the right thing in the ecosystem that I
believe the right thing is. And so I shared that
with my pastors, and the key thing that I said
to them is, you know, I want to make you
(07:50):
all aware that this happened. I've communicated to this woman
that it cannot happen again, but I need you to
stand as my spiritual oversight that there is now a
record that is spinning in my mind that I cannot
(08:12):
escape from, and this is what the tracks are playing
on that record. Number one? Is this why I've never
actually felt emotionally connected to my husband? Number two? Is
this why I've never actually felt physically connected to my
(08:33):
husband and had climax in intercourse with him. I want
you guys to be aware not only of the event
that occurred, but also the thoughts that have accompanied that event.
And so their response to me was, thank you so
much for telling us. Here's what we need you to do.
(08:54):
Go and tell your husband what happened. Yeah, that was fun.
You can do that for me.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I know exactly.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
I've already been very even done the right thing. Are
we done here? Yeah? They were like, we need you
to communicate what happened to your ex husband or you
know now ex husband, but your husband, and you know,
make him aware and request his forgiveness. And then we
would also recommend that we connect you with a woman
(09:26):
a conversion therapist. We have been put in touch with
a specialty resource who helps women of faith like yourself
who are struggling with in air quotes same sex attraction.
She's based out of Oregon, and we want you to
start doing zoom therapy with her. So from there I
(09:49):
went and told my husband what had occurred, and he
was like pretty understanding. I think he was very shocked,
but his his position on it was like, well, I mean,
you didn't really do anything wrong because she kissed you.
And I was like, correct, but I need you to
also hear the second part. This is very disruptive for
(10:12):
me and it's creating a lot of questions. And I
began meeting with that second conversion therapist and in our
first meeting, she kind of laughed at me, and you know,
I explained what I've just explained to you, like the
record started spinning. I'm wondering if actually I am attracted
(10:33):
to women, even though I haven't had these feelings in
eleven years. And she kind of laughed and she said, Anna,
you aren't really attracted to women.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Oh my god, the gaslighting.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
And so yeah, it's the same experience that i'd had
eleven years prior of If we can sew enough doubt
within you, then we can have a big enough opening
to insert what is are truth. And so a couple
months went by and meeting with this woman for therapy,
(11:08):
and something started to happen for me personally. Of the
thread really started to pull at my theology and I
really started to question the actual work that we were
doing and proselytizing Muslims. And what that looked like is
(11:28):
I could feel the internal discontent and I couldn't find
alignment with what we were doing. And what I mean
is I am sitting here saying to people, if you
just follow Jesus, all your wildest dreams will come true.
You'll feel peace, you'll feel joy, and the disconnect was
(11:50):
I was.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Not feeling any of those things.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I had given it all for Jesus. I had gone
to the very extreme of what putting action behind Christian
faith could look like, and I wasn't experiencing those things.
As I began to expose myself to teachers like Eckartole
(12:14):
and even began to study the Bible in more depth,
because you know, we're reading it in Arabic, we're reading
it in English and doing translation, I just began to realize,
like I don't know how much Jesus is actually suggesting
eternal damnation for homosexuals, Like I just don't know that
(12:38):
that's in the narrative. And when I actually read what
he's saying, he's saying things like the Kingdom of Heaven
is at hand, the Kingdom of Heaven is now. He's
not talking about a future afterlife. And so it just
caused me to reflect on how could I live my
(13:01):
whole adult life and the rest of my days as
a suppressed person for an eternal outcome that does not
seem to have a lot of data pointing to reality
what Jesus taught. And so after a couple of months,
I told our pastors, I said, look, I have arrived
(13:23):
at a place where and I left this out, but
during this time, I gave birth to our first son overseas,
and that was you know, I wouldn't recommend giving birth
outside your holy country, especially for your first pregnancy. But
you know, I approached our pastors had a six month
(13:47):
old and I just said, listen, I have been doing
everything I can. I told you, guys, I wasn't in
love with my husband or I wasn't feeling that way.
You guys made the suggest of you know, maybe when
you guys start a family, you will feel feelings of love.
And I've now had a child, and so I want
(14:09):
to be really clear with all of you. I no
longer want to be a missionary. I'm not sure that
I want to be a Christian wife any longer. And
now I'm at the point where I'm really questioning, like
I've had this child to try to create a loving
(14:30):
family unit to stay inside this marriage, and I'm not
sure I want to do that. And so obviously what
I'm communicating is, you know, pretty significant postpartum depression. It
was not identified as such at the time because there
wasn't the resources to be able where I was living
(14:51):
to be able to diagnose that or get care for that.
But I just said to them, because my desires have changed,
I need to come home. Wow, I don't think that
it is in the best interest of me, this new baby,
my husband for us to continue this work.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
And so, and is he on board, your husband or
is he kind of like, what are you doing?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
You're blowing up our entire identity?
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Yeah, I think that. You know, I am a very
assertive personality, and so I guess the best way to
say it would be I sort of drove a lot
of decisions and he's more of a kind gentle personality
(15:42):
and is happy to go along with the flow. And
so when I told him, hey, I think our marriage
is in grave trouble. I think we need to go home,
he was he was okay with that, And so in
February twenty eighteen, we moved back to America, and the
first step was for us to go to California to
(16:06):
like six week marriage intensive. At this time, I was
now pregnant with our second So life is still just
coming at you fast while.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
You're loving him, like you obviously like, were you feeling
like this is a deep friendship with someone who's supporting
me and now I'm having another baby and he sounds
like kind of a boy scout, Like, are you feeling
feelings of maybe not romantic love, but I love this
person and we're doing this together.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Or are you feeling like resentful?
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Yeah? I think that's a great question. And I think
the only way I would alter what you said is
during all this time, from the kiss, you know, to
moving back to the States, what I came to realize
is not only was I not in love with him,
but he wasn't actually my best friend. Oh boy, we
(16:54):
were like really great, uh platonic roommates, and so I
started to do the mental hoops of like, Okay, I
could stay in this marriage until the kids go to college,
and I could do that, but then once they go
to college, it'll just be me and him for the
(17:16):
rest of our days till our hair's white. And that
also made me feel like, well, gosh, when I have
free time, I would much rather spend it with friends
that are women. And my sort of bucket of needs
is more fulfilled by spending time with friends than it
is by him. So I recognize, like, he's not even
really like the best friend. So we did this six
(17:41):
week marriage intensive, you know, several thousand dollars in California.
Then we went to Oregon to my conversion therapist and
did like weekend intensives with her. So what I'm trying
to paint for you guys is I wanted to make
sure that I left it all on the field. If
there was a way to salvage this marriage, if there
(18:04):
was a way to salvage this family, I wanted to
do it so that I couldn't look back and say
like I didn't try everything. Eventually, in time, we decided
to move to Atlanta and he got a great job here.
(18:24):
And at that time I spoke with a friend of
mine who had left our CULTI church and she was
actually in a relationship with a woman, and I was
sharing with her about what had happened, and I really
had spoken to very few people about this and about
the process that my husband and I were walking through.
(18:47):
And she just said to me, Anna, have you thought
that maybe you are in conversion therapy? And I mean
you guys, It was like, wait, what do you think
I am? And she was like, one hundred percent, I
think that you are in conversion therapy. And you've got
(19:07):
a lot of big decisions in front of you. What
if you met with somebody who like actually had a PhD,
who like actually was a psychologist.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Actually actually a smart person.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Yeah, Like what if you just met with like a
true doctor who doesn't really have like any skin in
this game?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, like no bias, Just here are the facts, Here
are the medical facts.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Yeah. And she was like, I have a psychologist who
I have been seeing. She has two paid PhDs and
specializes actually in like religious trauma and religious abuse. She's
based out of Texas, And why don't you just connect
with her and share your story and see what she thinks.
So I reached out to this psychologist and I told
(19:54):
her like, hey, I got a big story, I've been
through a lot, I got big decision head. I'd like
to fly to Texas to meet with you. Let's set
out like four hours. I'll tell you the whole story,
and then you can tell me what to do. And
she was like, great, I'll book half a day and
we'll do it. So I went out there and met
(20:17):
with her, told her the whole story, and I just
looked at her at the end and I said, you
know what, do you what do you think I should do?
Do you think I'm gay? You know what? And she
looked at me and she said, Anna, not only do
I think that you are gay, you are the gayest
(20:40):
woman I've ever that. And she was like, and it
wasn't just because I heard the story. It was how
you walked into the room like you you are the
captain of the lesbians. And you know, I just hadn't
(21:02):
spoken to anyone who could offer that sort of clarity
because I've been in all these rooms of like creating doubt,
vast lighting and so on. And so I'll say.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
You, well, before you move to that like right when
she says that, is your immediate reaction, oh god, like fuck?
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Or is your immediate reaction like.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Oh my god, Like I'm kind of excited now, like
I have this this knowledge now that I can go
be with It's almost like the freedom to go be
with women. Or was it like I'm permission or am
I in big fucking trouble now?
Speaker 4 (21:37):
I think that the best way I could describe it
is like, let's say you've been living with undiagnosed you know,
ADHD your whole life, and you're sitting there, you're talking
to someone and you're like, I'm late all the time,
I lose my keys, I can't focus, and you just
feel like an utter mess who can't get their life together. Yeah,
(21:58):
to have someone looking and say like, let me tell
you there is actually a name for what you're experiencing KDHD,
and also there's a variety of treatment options to help
you with all of this, it lets the shame out
of the balloon. And so that's exactly what she did is, Hey, yes,
(22:20):
there's a name for what you're experiencing. You've been living
a disingenuous life where you have to have one story
for this person and one story for this person, and
what if we could create a life where there's just
one anna, just one story, and you're no longer having
to live a lie. It was freeing, very liberating, And
(22:43):
so she said to me, after clarifying you know, yes
I think you're gay, she said, you know, you have
a lot of important steps in front of you. You
need to dissolve your marriage. You need to separate from
your husband, and you need to come out. And the
(23:03):
first thing that she said to me, which this was
kind of surprising, is she said, the first thing you
need to do is stop drinking alcohol. And that was
kind of like, huh, you know we were drinking.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Like was that part of the story, Like now you well.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
I communicated to her. I said, look, I'm at a
point in my marriage where for me to have sex
with my husband, I cannot do it without being very
tipsy and consuming a lot of alcohol. And she said, yeah,
it's because you are trying to force your body to
do something that you don't want to do. And your
(23:45):
husband's a great guy and he deserves to be with
a woman who doesn't have to get drunk to have
intercourse with him. But she just said, like you need
to walk this process soberly, and there's going to be
a lot of decisions that you're gonna have to make
that you just need that clarity of mind. And you've
(24:07):
lost your intuition and your inner guidance completely because you've
outsourced that to the capital o other, whether that's the
church or the pastors, Jesus himself, you have outsourced that,
and so we need to help you find your way
back to your inner knowing and alcohol will only get
in the way of that. And so it was like, Okay, great,
(24:29):
I won't drink anymore, and you've just got to think
about the practicals. Like here I was, you know, with
a BS resume of being like a church planting Bible smuggler,
and now I'm going to live in Atlanta as a
single mom. I have to find a career and figure
out a way to support myself. So what I want
to say is like her advice to me was actually
(24:52):
life saving advice.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
And I like too what you said, Like, I think
that point about outsourcing is so oh comment. Like I
watch it even in my friends that are like very
smart people. I see so many people do that. They
outsource the decisions with group almost like groupthink. Sometimes sometimes
it's not even God, it's just whatever the pressure may be,
(25:15):
mom and dad, friendships, society norms like. I think that's
such an important point with this demographic of people, because
they're terrified because they don't have a true north inside.
And it's like to find your true north is sometimes
it's scary when you've never had to do it.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
Yeah, exactly. And I think it's important to note. You know,
I had my first meeting with her in September twenty twenty,
so you know, it's now been almost two years of
us being back in the States and I've left the
conversion therapy, I'm meeting with her, and to your point
that you just made, Ali, she said, you know, these
are my findings and my suggestions, but I want you
(25:59):
to take this to your own journal pages. I want
you to take this to your own two way prayer
with God, because again I don't want to outsource the
big decisions of my life to her, and so I
enjoy running and I would go on runs and just
(26:20):
think about the things that she was bringing up in
our therapy sessions. And really something I do to day
still today is two way prayer. And Elizabeth Gilbert talks
a lot about it on her substack and writes about it.
But I would go on these runs and I would
just talk to God. And I was out on a
(26:43):
run and I was talking to God trying to process
all of this, and I felt like what the Divine
made known to me was, Anna, I want you to
think about every man in the world. You can include
Brad Pitt, you can include you known any of your
(27:03):
friend's husbands you've ever thought were handsome. I want you
to think of all the men in the world. And
so I was like, Okay, you know, I've got this,
you know, bucket of people. And I felt like the
next question was just think about a time where you
did feel like intimately connected to another human being. And
(27:25):
the time that I referenced back was not any experience
with my husband, but it was my freshman year of
college girlfriend, you know, just I played soccer in college
and so getting done with a soccer game and then
just laying in my dorm room bed with her and
laughing and giggling, you know, kissing all afternoon. And so
(27:46):
I just felt like the Divine was like, Okay, think
about that moment of connection, and now think about this
bucket of men, Is there any one of those men
that you would want to lay in a twin bed
with and giggle all afternoon with and kiss? And I mean,
I like really really thought about it, and I was like, no, like, there's.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Not a one, not a one.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
And then the final question was, Okay, are there any
potential women that you know who you would like to
do that with? And I was like, the cast of
characters is two thousand names, all of them exactly. And
so the point is, I felt like the divine was like,
(28:38):
you have your answer, because I was just living in
this turmoil of like, how can I pull the trigger
on this? How can I go and tell my husband
after we've invested so much time and money and energy
into this now we have two little kids. Yeah. And
so I got back from the run and I walked
into my house. It's the beginning of October, and I
(29:01):
looked at my husband and I said, we have been
on this journey. Sorry I could get emotional, but we
have been on this journey of trying to figure out
if we can continue. And I do feel like I
have clarity and you are a good man. Yeah, And
(29:22):
the moment that I have clarity. I don't want to
be dishonest with you, and I don't want to drag
this out longer, because you are deserving of a woman who,
when you walk in the door from work says, honey,
I'm so glad you're home and throws her arm around
your neck and kisses you. And that will never be me.
(29:44):
And so I need to tell you I do think
that I'm gay, and I do think we need to
dissolve our marriage. And so from there, I moved into
my parents' basement, which is always really fun. Yeah, because a.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Basement that like makes it extra like that.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
Yeah, I feel like every boomer parent has a basement.
I'm like, no millennials, complete with the elder tables.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Complete with the old table, some paneling, it works.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Yeah, it was a different time in terms of the
square footage you could you could purchase. But yeah, so
I just I felt really really bad because I was like,
here's this man who's been faithful to me, who's walked
this whole journey with me, And so I told him,
I said, look, I'm bringing so much disruption to your
life by coming out as gay. If you want to
stay in the marital home, you can I will get
(30:43):
an apartment. All I ask is that you know, we
do an uncontested divorce and we co parent fifty to
fifty And so our separation was from October twenty twenty
to January twenty twenty one. We began the process of
(31:05):
working on our divorce, which we then finalized in May
twenty twenty one. And a big component of this that
I do want to share is I sat down with
a mentor in Atlanta who is a gay man, and
he was raised by a Southern Baptist pastor and came
(31:29):
out later in life. I didn't know any women who'd
come out later in life, just this one gay man.
And I sat down and told him the whole story,
and he gave me a piece of advice that I
think was critical. And he said, Anna, listen, you're about
to walk away from a marriage, but you're going to
(31:50):
lose your entire community, like you are saying you're basically
to them, raising your hand and saying, I'm electing to
live in sin And it was like, Atlanta is an
expensive city, you've got two kids, You're about to lose
a lot of your support network. I would encourage you
to not make these steps. Until you make six figures.
(32:13):
And I know that sounds like such a you know,
like strange bit of advice, but he was absolutely right
and it informed how I made decisions because when I
moved back to the States, I was like, the only
way that you can make a lot of money in America,
(32:34):
you know, keep in mind had been living abroad a
long time is to be a doctor or a lawyer, right,
And like we talked about in the previous episode, you know,
I had taken the el SAT and applied to law school.
So when I was nine months pregnant with my second
I was living in Atlanta and took the el SAT again,
applied to all the law schools in Georgia. I ended
(32:57):
up getting a full ride to go to Georgia State
and so I was enrolled in law school. And during
that time, I was just in so much turmoil because
I knew this is going to elongate me being able
to get divorced three more years. And one of my
(33:18):
neighbors at the time said, you know, she worked for
a large corporate tech group, and she just said, Hey,
you're one of the most like, tenacious, gritty people I know,
and I think you would do really amazing and corporate
tech sales. You know, I would you consider interviewing with
our company. I'm a first year law student with two kids,
(33:39):
just trying to become an attorney so I can be
a lesbian and come out. And so I got a
job offer from this tech group and it was for
seventy eight K, so it wasn't quite the one hundred
k I needed. But I got the notification on my
email lob in a law school class and I stood up,
(34:04):
got my bag, and I went down to the career
center at Georgia State Law and I said, I need
to speak to a career counselor right now. So they
put me in front of this woman. I told her
the whole thing. I was like, listen, I'm a gay lady.
I'm stuck in this heterosexual marriage. I need to get
to six figures so I can live an authentic life,
(34:25):
you know. And I told her the whole thing, and
she just leaned across the table and looked at me,
and she was like, Anna, take that job. You cannot
betray yourself any longer. You cannot betray your son's any longer.
(34:51):
Give them a mother who will be her authentic self
and who will be happy and so right there in
the law school classroom or I mean sorry, the counseling office,
I filled out the withdrawal papers. I started at the
tech group, and within ten months I crossed that six
figure mark and we were able to finalize our divorce.
(35:13):
I was financially independent, and so I just only include
those details to say, coming out later in life also
has a lot of practical logistics. Sure, it includes sobriety,
It includes reinventing your career. It includes whatever you need
(35:33):
to return to self to find that inner voice to
then do the hard, brave conversations that you're gonna have
to have. And I would just encourage anyone who's sitting
there today listening to this and is like, I just
can't fathom that I would be in a position where
I could live authentically. You can. It's just the next
(35:57):
right step. If I hadn't stopped drinking and have done
while on the LSAT, I wouldn't have then interviewed well
to leave law school and get the tech job and
have the choices exactly. Yeah, And so I feel really
honored not just to be on this podcast today, but
to be friends with both of you in real life,
(36:18):
and I wish that I had known you and others
like you in twenty twenty one. But God was kind
enough to bring those people, those psychologists.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
That's what I keep thinking.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
The characters in your story were discovered right on time.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
Yeah, and so if you point your life at I
just want to live my truth, you were going to
find the guardrails of support around you to do it.
And so thank you guys so much for listening. I've
now been out for about four years, coming up on five,
(37:03):
co parenting with my ex husband, and I can't I
can talk to you guys about the woman that I
was when I was living under that brainwashing, but I
can't emphasize enough how proud it makes me feel to
(37:24):
know I wouldn't have wanted that marriage for either of
my sons, and I wouldn't want that marriage for my
very kind ex husband, and I did brave things to
set us all free to step into our deepest contentment.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
I think that's to say that again. And I did
brave things to set us all free. It's like even
when they don't know what's going to happen, and it
doesn't feel that way. I'm sure your husband was grasping
to keep you. But it's like to say that I
did brave things to set us all free is exactly right.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
Yeah, I think I think when something is true liberating,
it's always liberation for the collective. It's never for just
one person. And so pointing my life at living that
one story, living Anna's truth, not having to hide any
parts of herself, it actually creates ripples of freedom and
(38:20):
liberation for others, for my sons to feel like they
can be whoever they want to be, and.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
And change gears like yeah, of the ultimate pivot, it's
like there's no you made your bed, you sleep in it.
It's like I want my kids to know there's a
pivot always.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
Yeah. The last thing that's important for me to mention
that I didn't say about that run when you know,
I felt like the divine kind of showed me like, hey,
I appreciated that God wasn't like, you're gay, you know,
but led me to that answer myself and sort of
those questions about who could you imagine having that sort
of connection with After that happened, I just really felt
(38:59):
like God said, Anna, I have always accepted every part
of you, even the gay part. Would you go and
do the same because I realized I had just been
rejecting this part of myself and that's where the liberation
(39:21):
comes of you can be your whole self.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah, that's so inspiring. I love that, Anna.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah, this is amazing, And I mean, you make so
many good points and I'm I mean just it's it
makes me proud to know you too, for sure.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
I'm it's like, you're such a badass.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
You did it, and you did it in a way
that you had to step back from something that you
really care about and in order to move forward. And
I think that's really impressive and very unique quality.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Sure, so brave.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
And the practical I like that you mentioned that because
so many people just throw out this nebulous go be authentic,
it's fair to honor that it's not always there are practicalities.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
It's not that easy to just make me authentic.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, it's and you touched on all that, Anna, You're
a badass.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Yeah. Well, thank you guys so much for letting me
chat with you, and I just have the utmost respect
for you both as individuals. But also, you know, if
I had found this podcast and known about this resource
years ago, I'm sure my timeline would have been accelerated.
So I just so appreciate the positive impact you're putting
(40:32):
out into the world for women who are still finding
what's my next practical step to get to the life
I want?
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Thank you aanah amazing. All right, y'all, Well we'll wrap
there because that's a great place. And yeah, thank you,
thank you, thank you for coming on.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
I know this is going to help so many people.
Speaker 4 (40:49):
Yeah, you guys have a great difference. All right too,
by bye bye.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast. Rate us
and write a review on app podcast or Spotify.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
We'd love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Email us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
That's Melissa M. E. L I s A and Ali A. L.
L I at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Or follow us on Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles
I'm Ali.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I came out after twenty years of marriage and I
have three kids.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
and victories.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
That come with it when coming out feels like the
end of the world, but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This is the Lesbian Chronicles. Welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles.
Where we left everybody on such a cliffhanger.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
And you know, it was a good one.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
It was a good one.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
When I listened back, I literally was like, first of all,
now I've heard the story different way, like a couple times,
and I every time get something new out of it.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, where I'm like, holy shit.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
But before we get back to it with Anna Christy,
who were so excited that she was willing to come
back on, we just want to mention it again in
October eighteenth in Seattle. Get your tickets. We are super pumped.
We have a couple great guests already lined up that
are going to come speak. And it's not too late
for the early bird, is it.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Melissa?
Speaker 4 (01:13):
I think today actually is Today's the.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Last day Okay, So today's the last day to order
get your tickets, and tickets are.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Still on sale. They'll also be on sale at the door.
Like and again, the details are on our website, Lesbian
Chronicles podcast dot com. It pops up right away and
you can buy your tickets through event right too. It's
a secure site.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
So and then I should say that stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Social Queer is an organization in Seattle that's going to.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Host the first hour. So if you're coming by.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yourself, this is an organization that essentially will get the
conversations going, get intros made, like do not sweat coming
by yourself, this is the event to do that if
you need to, Like, don't.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Feel like she's a pro, Like if she sees you
standing alone, she's going to make sure that you're connecting
with other people. That's her purpose, that's what she does
in Seattle. So we're really happy to have her on.
And like Ali said, we've We've lined up two more
people to come on during our portion and I'm so
stoked about it. So it's going to be the best time.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Likewise, all right, well let's let's get into it, because
that's what the people really want.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Anna Christy welcome.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Back, Thank you so much, and thanks again for having
me back.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Let's get back in the pool with the hot girl, right,
but I get back in the pool with the hot girl.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
With the exactly yeah. Sorry, we're in BALI and I
have just been kissed by this woman, and I think that,
you know, there's a few outcomes of what could have
happened next, but I feel it's important to remind you
of the context of I was very, very committed to
(02:55):
my faith, and you know, at this point, I believe
I was thirty years old. I hadn't had a single,
you know, in air quotes homosexual thought since I was
nineteen and gave my life to Jesus. And so I
had this full color moment of like the lights are
all on, I'm experiencing something in my body that I've
(03:19):
never felt in the context of relationship with my husband.
And I did not have the realization in that moment
of oh wow, I must be gay. The realization that
I had in that moment was my body is now awake.
I'm feeling fireworks, and then the fear of God sets
(03:44):
on me. So I told her, you know, very very
shortly after the kiss, we heard the gate unlock, and
both of our husbands came back in, and so it
was a very there wasn't much time for coversation, and
we both went to our separate rooms that we were
staying in with our husbands, and she was sending me
(04:08):
text messages through the night, just saying like that was incredible.
You know, I think I'm in love with you and
this sort of thing, and I was just riddled so
much internal conflict, just the fear of God, the fear
of what had just happened.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
She's not having that. It sounds like she's a little
braver in this moment.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Yeah, okay, And I was unaware that I was like
number ten and a long list of you know, female
trysts that she had this, and so this was sort
of familiar, familiar to her, whereas for me, this was
very disruptive. And so the next morning I didn't respond
(04:52):
to the text messages. The next morning, wait, you didn't respond? No?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Oh, I was just okay, You're I know, is she
like fuck, I'm gonna be so embarrassed at breakfast.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
So I'm like, I'm more impressed by your integrity with
your relationship with.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
God, Like damn, that's it. Yeah, Well, you know, you
have to think about the frame of mind I was in,
like for someone who's willing to risk their life to
go to Iraq and share the gospel, and go to
Libya and share the gospel and now and oman, you know,
this is a person who has deep, deep commitment to
their faith path. And so the next morning we all
(05:30):
went to breakfast at this beach club and I asked her, Hey,
can we go for a walk, And so we walked
down the beach where it was just just she and
I and I turned and looked at her and I said,
you need to understand that this can never ever happen again.
(05:53):
I am a Christian and this is not something. We
don't have extramarital affairs, and we certainly don't have them
with people of the same gender, and so this is
not something that can happen again. And so you kind
of see that transition I talked last time about to
exist as a gay person inside of this hyper evangelical ecosystem,
(06:17):
I had to divorce my head in my heart. So
you can see how overnight I went back up into
my head and said this can never happen again. And
from there, uh, you know, we finished the stay in Bali.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And what was her response to that very clear messaging
on you know, it's a double homicide for me. Not
only are you a woman, but it's unfair. What was
was she like, oh yeah, sorry, or was she like
trying to sell you?
Speaker 4 (06:47):
I think for someone of sort of her socioeconomic level
or position, she has heard no very few times got
in her life, and so I think it was shocking
to her and maybe also a bit of like a
challenge like yeah, I'll get you, I'll get you to
fallow from me and Simon girl. But all that to say,
(07:09):
I uh, you know, we flew back to Oman and
I called our pastors in Waco, Texas, and I said, hey,
I need to make you aware of something that occurred.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Wow, you're trying to cure your conscience.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
I'm trying to, yes, yes, maintain my Christian integrity and
just do the right thing in the ecosystem that I
believe the right thing is. And so I shared that
with my pastors, and the key thing that I said
to them is, you know, I want to make you
(07:50):
all aware that this happened. I've communicated to this woman
that it cannot happen again, but I need you to
stand as my spiritual oversight that there is now a
record that is spinning in my mind that I cannot
(08:12):
escape from, and this is what the tracks are playing
on that record. Number one? Is this why I've never
actually felt emotionally connected to my husband? Number two? Is
this why I've never actually felt physically connected to my
(08:33):
husband and had climax in intercourse with him. I want
you guys to be aware not only of the event
that occurred, but also the thoughts that have accompanied that event.
And so their response to me was, thank you so
much for telling us. Here's what we need you to do.
(08:54):
Go and tell your husband what happened. Yeah, that was fun.
You can do that for me.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I know exactly.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
I've already been very even done the right thing. Are
we done here? Yeah? They were like, we need you
to communicate what happened to your ex husband or you
know now ex husband, but your husband, and you know,
make him aware and request his forgiveness. And then we
would also recommend that we connect you with a woman
(09:26):
a conversion therapist. We have been put in touch with
a specialty resource who helps women of faith like yourself
who are struggling with in air quotes same sex attraction.
She's based out of Oregon, and we want you to
start doing zoom therapy with her. So from there I
(09:49):
went and told my husband what had occurred, and he
was like pretty understanding. I think he was very shocked,
but his his position on it was like, well, I mean,
you didn't really do anything wrong because she kissed you.
And I was like, correct, but I need you to
also hear the second part. This is very disruptive for
(10:12):
me and it's creating a lot of questions. And I
began meeting with that second conversion therapist and in our
first meeting, she kind of laughed at me, and you know,
I explained what I've just explained to you, like the
record started spinning. I'm wondering if actually I am attracted
(10:33):
to women, even though I haven't had these feelings in
eleven years. And she kind of laughed and she said, Anna,
you aren't really attracted to women.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Oh my god, the gaslighting.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
And so yeah, it's the same experience that i'd had
eleven years prior of If we can sew enough doubt
within you, then we can have a big enough opening
to insert what is are truth. And so a couple
months went by and meeting with this woman for therapy,
(11:08):
and something started to happen for me personally. Of the
thread really started to pull at my theology and I
really started to question the actual work that we were
doing and proselytizing Muslims. And what that looked like is
(11:28):
I could feel the internal discontent and I couldn't find
alignment with what we were doing. And what I mean
is I am sitting here saying to people, if you
just follow Jesus, all your wildest dreams will come true.
You'll feel peace, you'll feel joy, and the disconnect was
(11:50):
I was.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Not feeling any of those things.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I had given it all for Jesus. I had gone
to the very extreme of what putting action behind Christian
faith could look like, and I wasn't experiencing those things.
As I began to expose myself to teachers like Eckartole
(12:14):
and even began to study the Bible in more depth,
because you know, we're reading it in Arabic, we're reading
it in English and doing translation, I just began to realize,
like I don't know how much Jesus is actually suggesting
eternal damnation for homosexuals, Like I just don't know that
(12:38):
that's in the narrative. And when I actually read what
he's saying, he's saying things like the Kingdom of Heaven
is at hand, the Kingdom of Heaven is now. He's
not talking about a future afterlife. And so it just
caused me to reflect on how could I live my
(13:01):
whole adult life and the rest of my days as
a suppressed person for an eternal outcome that does not
seem to have a lot of data pointing to reality
what Jesus taught. And so after a couple of months,
I told our pastors, I said, look, I have arrived
(13:23):
at a place where and I left this out, but
during this time, I gave birth to our first son overseas,
and that was you know, I wouldn't recommend giving birth
outside your holy country, especially for your first pregnancy. But
you know, I approached our pastors had a six month
(13:47):
old and I just said, listen, I have been doing
everything I can. I told you, guys, I wasn't in
love with my husband or I wasn't feeling that way.
You guys made the suggest of you know, maybe when
you guys start a family, you will feel feelings of love.
And I've now had a child, and so I want
(14:09):
to be really clear with all of you. I no
longer want to be a missionary. I'm not sure that
I want to be a Christian wife any longer. And
now I'm at the point where I'm really questioning, like
I've had this child to try to create a loving
(14:30):
family unit to stay inside this marriage, and I'm not
sure I want to do that. And so obviously what
I'm communicating is, you know, pretty significant postpartum depression. It
was not identified as such at the time because there
wasn't the resources to be able where I was living
(14:51):
to be able to diagnose that or get care for that.
But I just said to them, because my desires have changed,
I need to come home. Wow, I don't think that
it is in the best interest of me, this new baby,
my husband for us to continue this work.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
And so, and is he on board, your husband or
is he kind of like, what are you doing?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
You're blowing up our entire identity?
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Yeah, I think that. You know, I am a very
assertive personality, and so I guess the best way to
say it would be I sort of drove a lot
of decisions and he's more of a kind gentle personality
(15:42):
and is happy to go along with the flow. And
so when I told him, hey, I think our marriage
is in grave trouble. I think we need to go home,
he was he was okay with that, And so in
February twenty eighteen, we moved back to America, and the
first step was for us to go to California to
(16:06):
like six week marriage intensive. At this time, I was
now pregnant with our second So life is still just
coming at you fast while.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
You're loving him, like you obviously like, were you feeling
like this is a deep friendship with someone who's supporting
me and now I'm having another baby and he sounds
like kind of a boy scout, Like, are you feeling
feelings of maybe not romantic love, but I love this
person and we're doing this together.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Or are you feeling like resentful?
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Yeah? I think that's a great question. And I think
the only way I would alter what you said is
during all this time, from the kiss, you know, to
moving back to the States, what I came to realize
is not only was I not in love with him,
but he wasn't actually my best friend. Oh boy, we
(16:54):
were like really great, uh platonic roommates, and so I
started to do the mental hoops of like, Okay, I
could stay in this marriage until the kids go to college,
and I could do that, but then once they go
to college, it'll just be me and him for the
(17:16):
rest of our days till our hair's white. And that
also made me feel like, well, gosh, when I have
free time, I would much rather spend it with friends
that are women. And my sort of bucket of needs
is more fulfilled by spending time with friends than it
is by him. So I recognize, like, he's not even
really like the best friend. So we did this six
(17:41):
week marriage intensive, you know, several thousand dollars in California.
Then we went to Oregon to my conversion therapist and
did like weekend intensives with her. So what I'm trying
to paint for you guys is I wanted to make
sure that I left it all on the field. If
there was a way to salvage this marriage, if there
(18:04):
was a way to salvage this family, I wanted to
do it so that I couldn't look back and say
like I didn't try everything. Eventually, in time, we decided
to move to Atlanta and he got a great job here.
(18:24):
And at that time I spoke with a friend of
mine who had left our CULTI church and she was
actually in a relationship with a woman, and I was
sharing with her about what had happened, and I really
had spoken to very few people about this and about
the process that my husband and I were walking through.
(18:47):
And she just said to me, Anna, have you thought
that maybe you are in conversion therapy? And I mean
you guys, It was like, wait, what do you think
I am? And she was like, one hundred percent, I
think that you are in conversion therapy. And you've got
(19:07):
a lot of big decisions in front of you. What
if you met with somebody who like actually had a PhD,
who like actually was a psychologist.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Actually actually a smart person.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Yeah, Like what if you just met with like a
true doctor who doesn't really have like any skin in
this game?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, like no bias, Just here are the facts, Here
are the medical facts.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Yeah. And she was like, I have a psychologist who
I have been seeing. She has two paid PhDs and
specializes actually in like religious trauma and religious abuse. She's
based out of Texas, And why don't you just connect
with her and share your story and see what she thinks.
So I reached out to this psychologist and I told
(19:54):
her like, hey, I got a big story, I've been
through a lot, I got big decision head. I'd like
to fly to Texas to meet with you. Let's set
out like four hours. I'll tell you the whole story,
and then you can tell me what to do. And
she was like, great, I'll book half a day and
we'll do it. So I went out there and met
(20:17):
with her, told her the whole story, and I just
looked at her at the end and I said, you
know what, do you what do you think I should do?
Do you think I'm gay? You know what? And she
looked at me and she said, Anna, not only do
I think that you are gay, you are the gayest
(20:40):
woman I've ever that. And she was like, and it
wasn't just because I heard the story. It was how
you walked into the room like you you are the
captain of the lesbians. And you know, I just hadn't
(21:02):
spoken to anyone who could offer that sort of clarity
because I've been in all these rooms of like creating doubt,
vast lighting and so on. And so I'll say.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
You, well, before you move to that like right when
she says that, is your immediate reaction, oh god, like fuck?
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Or is your immediate reaction like.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Oh my god, Like I'm kind of excited now, like
I have this this knowledge now that I can go
be with It's almost like the freedom to go be
with women. Or was it like I'm permission or am
I in big fucking trouble now?
Speaker 4 (21:37):
I think that the best way I could describe it
is like, let's say you've been living with undiagnosed you know,
ADHD your whole life, and you're sitting there, you're talking
to someone and you're like, I'm late all the time,
I lose my keys, I can't focus, and you just
feel like an utter mess who can't get their life together. Yeah,
(21:58):
to have someone looking and say like, let me tell
you there is actually a name for what you're experiencing KDHD,
and also there's a variety of treatment options to help
you with all of this, it lets the shame out
of the balloon. And so that's exactly what she did is, Hey, yes,
(22:20):
there's a name for what you're experiencing. You've been living
a disingenuous life where you have to have one story
for this person and one story for this person, and
what if we could create a life where there's just
one anna, just one story, and you're no longer having
to live a lie. It was freeing, very liberating, And
(22:43):
so she said to me, after clarifying you know, yes
I think you're gay, she said, you know, you have
a lot of important steps in front of you. You
need to dissolve your marriage. You need to separate from
your husband, and you need to come out. And the
(23:03):
first thing that she said to me, which this was
kind of surprising, is she said, the first thing you
need to do is stop drinking alcohol. And that was
kind of like, huh, you know we were drinking.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Like was that part of the story, Like now you well.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
I communicated to her. I said, look, I'm at a
point in my marriage where for me to have sex
with my husband, I cannot do it without being very
tipsy and consuming a lot of alcohol. And she said, yeah,
it's because you are trying to force your body to
do something that you don't want to do. And your
(23:45):
husband's a great guy and he deserves to be with
a woman who doesn't have to get drunk to have
intercourse with him. But she just said, like you need
to walk this process soberly, and there's going to be
a lot of decisions that you're gonna have to make
that you just need that clarity of mind. And you've
(24:07):
lost your intuition and your inner guidance completely because you've
outsourced that to the capital o other, whether that's the
church or the pastors, Jesus himself, you have outsourced that,
and so we need to help you find your way
back to your inner knowing and alcohol will only get
in the way of that. And so it was like, Okay, great,
(24:29):
I won't drink anymore, and you've just got to think
about the practicals. Like here I was, you know, with
a BS resume of being like a church planting Bible smuggler,
and now I'm going to live in Atlanta as a
single mom. I have to find a career and figure
out a way to support myself. So what I want
to say is like her advice to me was actually
(24:52):
life saving advice.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
And I like too what you said, Like, I think
that point about outsourcing is so oh comment. Like I
watch it even in my friends that are like very
smart people. I see so many people do that. They
outsource the decisions with group almost like groupthink. Sometimes sometimes
it's not even God, it's just whatever the pressure may be,
(25:15):
mom and dad, friendships, society norms like. I think that's
such an important point with this demographic of people, because
they're terrified because they don't have a true north inside.
And it's like to find your true north is sometimes
it's scary when you've never had to do it.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
Yeah, exactly. And I think it's important to note. You know,
I had my first meeting with her in September twenty twenty,
so you know, it's now been almost two years of
us being back in the States and I've left the
conversion therapy, I'm meeting with her, and to your point
that you just made, Ali, she said, you know, these
are my findings and my suggestions, but I want you
(25:59):
to take this to your own journal pages. I want
you to take this to your own two way prayer
with God, because again I don't want to outsource the
big decisions of my life to her, and so I
enjoy running and I would go on runs and just
(26:20):
think about the things that she was bringing up in
our therapy sessions. And really something I do to day
still today is two way prayer. And Elizabeth Gilbert talks
a lot about it on her substack and writes about it.
But I would go on these runs and I would
just talk to God. And I was out on a
(26:43):
run and I was talking to God trying to process
all of this, and I felt like what the Divine
made known to me was, Anna, I want you to
think about every man in the world. You can include
Brad Pitt, you can include you known any of your
(27:03):
friend's husbands you've ever thought were handsome. I want you
to think of all the men in the world. And
so I was like, Okay, you know, I've got this,
you know, bucket of people. And I felt like the
next question was just think about a time where you
did feel like intimately connected to another human being. And
(27:25):
the time that I referenced back was not any experience
with my husband, but it was my freshman year of
college girlfriend, you know, just I played soccer in college
and so getting done with a soccer game and then
just laying in my dorm room bed with her and
laughing and giggling, you know, kissing all afternoon. And so
(27:46):
I just felt like the Divine was like, Okay, think
about that moment of connection, and now think about this
bucket of men, Is there any one of those men
that you would want to lay in a twin bed
with and giggle all afternoon with and kiss? And I mean,
I like really really thought about it, and I was like, no, like, there's.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Not a one, not a one.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
And then the final question was, Okay, are there any
potential women that you know who you would like to
do that with? And I was like, the cast of
characters is two thousand names, all of them exactly. And
so the point is, I felt like the divine was like,
(28:38):
you have your answer, because I was just living in
this turmoil of like, how can I pull the trigger
on this? How can I go and tell my husband
after we've invested so much time and money and energy
into this now we have two little kids. Yeah. And
so I got back from the run and I walked
into my house. It's the beginning of October, and I
(29:01):
looked at my husband and I said, we have been
on this journey. Sorry I could get emotional, but we
have been on this journey of trying to figure out
if we can continue. And I do feel like I
have clarity and you are a good man. Yeah, And
(29:22):
the moment that I have clarity. I don't want to
be dishonest with you, and I don't want to drag
this out longer, because you are deserving of a woman who,
when you walk in the door from work says, honey,
I'm so glad you're home and throws her arm around
your neck and kisses you. And that will never be me.
(29:44):
And so I need to tell you I do think
that I'm gay, and I do think we need to
dissolve our marriage. And so from there, I moved into
my parents' basement, which is always really fun. Yeah, because a.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Basement that like makes it extra like that.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
Yeah, I feel like every boomer parent has a basement.
I'm like, no millennials, complete with the elder tables.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Complete with the old table, some paneling, it works.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Yeah, it was a different time in terms of the
square footage you could you could purchase. But yeah, so
I just I felt really really bad because I was like,
here's this man who's been faithful to me, who's walked
this whole journey with me, And so I told him,
I said, look, I'm bringing so much disruption to your
life by coming out as gay. If you want to
stay in the marital home, you can I will get
(30:43):
an apartment. All I ask is that you know, we
do an uncontested divorce and we co parent fifty to
fifty And so our separation was from October twenty twenty
to January twenty twenty one. We began the process of
(31:05):
working on our divorce, which we then finalized in May
twenty twenty one. And a big component of this that
I do want to share is I sat down with
a mentor in Atlanta who is a gay man, and
he was raised by a Southern Baptist pastor and came
(31:29):
out later in life. I didn't know any women who'd
come out later in life, just this one gay man.
And I sat down and told him the whole story,
and he gave me a piece of advice that I
think was critical. And he said, Anna, listen, you're about
to walk away from a marriage, but you're going to
(31:50):
lose your entire community, like you are saying you're basically
to them, raising your hand and saying, I'm electing to
live in sin And it was like, Atlanta is an
expensive city, you've got two kids, You're about to lose
a lot of your support network. I would encourage you
to not make these steps. Until you make six figures.
(32:13):
And I know that sounds like such a you know,
like strange bit of advice, but he was absolutely right
and it informed how I made decisions because when I
moved back to the States, I was like, the only
way that you can make a lot of money in America,
(32:34):
you know, keep in mind had been living abroad a
long time is to be a doctor or a lawyer, right,
And like we talked about in the previous episode, you know,
I had taken the el SAT and applied to law school.
So when I was nine months pregnant with my second
I was living in Atlanta and took the el SAT again,
applied to all the law schools in Georgia. I ended
(32:57):
up getting a full ride to go to Georgia State
and so I was enrolled in law school. And during
that time, I was just in so much turmoil because
I knew this is going to elongate me being able
to get divorced three more years. And one of my
(33:18):
neighbors at the time said, you know, she worked for
a large corporate tech group, and she just said, Hey,
you're one of the most like, tenacious, gritty people I know,
and I think you would do really amazing and corporate
tech sales. You know, I would you consider interviewing with
our company. I'm a first year law student with two kids,
(33:39):
just trying to become an attorney so I can be
a lesbian and come out. And so I got a
job offer from this tech group and it was for
seventy eight K, so it wasn't quite the one hundred
k I needed. But I got the notification on my
email lob in a law school class and I stood up,
(34:04):
got my bag, and I went down to the career
center at Georgia State Law and I said, I need
to speak to a career counselor right now. So they
put me in front of this woman. I told her
the whole thing. I was like, listen, I'm a gay lady.
I'm stuck in this heterosexual marriage. I need to get
to six figures so I can live an authentic life,
(34:25):
you know. And I told her the whole thing, and
she just leaned across the table and looked at me,
and she was like, Anna, take that job. You cannot
betray yourself any longer. You cannot betray your son's any longer.
(34:51):
Give them a mother who will be her authentic self
and who will be happy and so right there in
the law school classroom or I mean sorry, the counseling office,
I filled out the withdrawal papers. I started at the
tech group, and within ten months I crossed that six
figure mark and we were able to finalize our divorce.
(35:13):
I was financially independent, and so I just only include
those details to say, coming out later in life also
has a lot of practical logistics. Sure, it includes sobriety,
It includes reinventing your career. It includes whatever you need
(35:33):
to return to self to find that inner voice to
then do the hard, brave conversations that you're gonna have
to have. And I would just encourage anyone who's sitting
there today listening to this and is like, I just
can't fathom that I would be in a position where
I could live authentically. You can. It's just the next
(35:57):
right step. If I hadn't stopped drinking and have done
while on the LSAT, I wouldn't have then interviewed well
to leave law school and get the tech job and
have the choices exactly. Yeah, And so I feel really
honored not just to be on this podcast today, but
to be friends with both of you in real life,
(36:18):
and I wish that I had known you and others
like you in twenty twenty one. But God was kind
enough to bring those people, those psychologists.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
That's what I keep thinking.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
The characters in your story were discovered right on time.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
Yeah, and so if you point your life at I
just want to live my truth, you were going to
find the guardrails of support around you to do it.
And so thank you guys so much for listening. I've
now been out for about four years, coming up on five,
(37:03):
co parenting with my ex husband, and I can't I
can talk to you guys about the woman that I
was when I was living under that brainwashing, but I
can't emphasize enough how proud it makes me feel to
(37:24):
know I wouldn't have wanted that marriage for either of
my sons, and I wouldn't want that marriage for my
very kind ex husband, and I did brave things to
set us all free to step into our deepest contentment.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
I think that's to say that again. And I did
brave things to set us all free. It's like even
when they don't know what's going to happen, and it
doesn't feel that way. I'm sure your husband was grasping
to keep you. But it's like to say that I
did brave things to set us all free is exactly right.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
Yeah, I think I think when something is true liberating,
it's always liberation for the collective. It's never for just
one person. And so pointing my life at living that
one story, living Anna's truth, not having to hide any
parts of herself, it actually creates ripples of freedom and
(38:20):
liberation for others, for my sons to feel like they
can be whoever they want to be, and.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
And change gears like yeah, of the ultimate pivot, it's
like there's no you made your bed, you sleep in it.
It's like I want my kids to know there's a
pivot always.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
Yeah. The last thing that's important for me to mention
that I didn't say about that run when you know,
I felt like the divine kind of showed me like, hey,
I appreciated that God wasn't like, you're gay, you know,
but led me to that answer myself and sort of
those questions about who could you imagine having that sort
of connection with After that happened, I just really felt
(38:59):
like God said, Anna, I have always accepted every part
of you, even the gay part. Would you go and
do the same because I realized I had just been
rejecting this part of myself and that's where the liberation
(39:21):
comes of you can be your whole self.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah, that's so inspiring. I love that, Anna.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah, this is amazing, And I mean, you make so
many good points and I'm I mean just it's it
makes me proud to know you too, for sure.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
I'm it's like, you're such a badass.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
You did it, and you did it in a way
that you had to step back from something that you
really care about and in order to move forward. And
I think that's really impressive and very unique quality.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Sure, so brave.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
And the practical I like that you mentioned that because
so many people just throw out this nebulous go be authentic,
it's fair to honor that it's not always there are practicalities.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
It's not that easy to just make me authentic.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, it's and you touched on all that, Anna, You're
a badass.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Yeah. Well, thank you guys so much for letting me
chat with you, and I just have the utmost respect
for you both as individuals. But also, you know, if
I had found this podcast and known about this resource
years ago, I'm sure my timeline would have been accelerated.
So I just so appreciate the positive impact you're putting
(40:32):
out into the world for women who are still finding
what's my next practical step to get to the life
I want?
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Thank you aanah amazing. All right, y'all, Well we'll wrap
there because that's a great place. And yeah, thank you,
thank you, thank you for coming on.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
I know this is going to help so many people.
Speaker 4 (40:49):
Yeah, you guys have a great difference. All right too,
by bye bye.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast. Rate us
and write a review on app podcast or Spotify.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
We'd love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Email us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
That's Melissa M. E. L I s A and Ali A. L.
L I at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Or follow us on Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.