Join us for a thought-provoking episode of our podcast, where we sit down with two dynamic women, Reonna Johnson and Shannon Dunbar-Rubio, to discuss the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion in advertising. With their extensive experience in the industry, Reonna and Shannon offer valuable insights into the challenges companies face in promoting DE&I efforts, and the solutions they have found to be effective. As the founder of Three's a Crowd and the Pledge for 13 campaign, Reonna sheds light on the need for greater Black representation in leadership roles, while Shannon, as the Sr. Director of Strategic Planning at LERMA/ and leader of Inclusivista, offers practical steps companies can take to create a more inclusive workplace culture. This conversation is a must-listen for anyone interested in making a positive impact in the advertising industry. So, tune in now to discover why the solution to DE&I is not simply black and white.
(Episode entry courtesy of GPT-4)
Episode references:
BIPI (Brand Inclusivity Performance Index)
https://www.pledgeinfor13.com/
Guest: Reonna Johnson, Co-Founder of Three's a Crowd, Pledge for 13 and VP/ Director of Growth Strategy at Deutsch LA
Guest: Shannon Dunbar-Rubio Sr. Director of Strategic Planning at LERMA/ and Managing Director/Sr. Consultant at Inclusivista.
Producer: Rolf Ruiz, Digital Strategist, Creative Technologist & Agricultor at LERMA/
Host: Francisco Cardenas, Principal of Digital and Social Strategy at LERMA/
Music: Pedro Lerma and the Band, LERMA/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So the representation number will never move until these the
(00:05):
other work is done internally. Let's quit dividing each other.
It's really sad. And now, someone is telling me
that what I stand for, my beliefis wrong.
I'm not a dni professional. I-i'm just a black woman who
(00:26):
worked in these spaces for 20 years.
But I felt like I had to prove Prove my show, like, well, what
made you qualify to have this conversation?
The expectation of a person, starting a job, doesn't mean you
have to get all the coffee and get all the dry cleaning, the
expectation of that has changed within our lifetime kind of
(00:46):
thing. So I think it's looking at
progress and change differently because it's not, it's not just
this exponential change and thenit's perfect like that Parts
done. Next, next thing we need to
check off this is loud and clear a
(01:15):
podcast. For those who give a shit about
advertising, this is your host. We'll cover than us.
Today is a day that we have beentrying to make happen for
several weeks. Now, we have two amazing women
in this episode or first guest is someone, you know, in the
show, Shannon bonbarb Rubio. She is our senior director of
strategic planning at Lerma and also leads a new diversity
(01:38):
equity and inclusion entity named inclusive Vista.
This entity helps companies and Brands think and looked into
what they're doing on their d e and i efforts you Might remember
her from our episode, where we spoke about launching BP, which
is our brand, inclusivity performance, index tool.
(01:59):
This is for brands. On the other side, we have
Rihanna Johnson an icon in our industry that today holds the
position of pp director of growth strategy at Deutsche, La
AKA new business. Rihanna has experienced that
ranges from media and publishingcompanies like Fox and Capitol
Records. To agencies like McGarry bound,
(02:22):
wondrous RPA, and of course toysshe is at 2021 at weak woman
Trailblazer which hits right in the spot as it is now
International history women's month where we can celebrate and
think all women for their contribution to the world and
their Industries. Truth be told.
Oh, and as I said earlier, we'vebeen trying to get this podcast
(02:45):
in the books for several weeks which would fall into Black
History Month. The reason I mention this is
Rihanna is the founder of the movement Three's, a Crowd and
the campaign pledge in 413. I would explain what this is but
I rather have Rihanna talk aboutit.
And tell that story put a littlebit of a hint is 13%, of course,
(03:07):
is the population America, that is black.
So why the hell is the percentage of our colleagues?
Not reflective of that number when it comes to diversity and
much less in leadership, I'm sure we'll talk about it.
So anyway, thank you so much, Shannon, and reona for being
here, and thank you for being inconformist or doing something
(03:29):
and changing the world of advertising into something
better. I think a lot of us talk about
it, not all of us do something and and you both are an example
of you guys taking action and doing something around this,
great. Thanks Poncho.
It's great to be back for havingme and invited me to this
conversation. No awesome.
(03:50):
I was very excited on our pre-call which was a couple of
weeks ago on what we were talking about pledge in 413
Three's, a Crowd. Can you Rihanna explain a little
bit about what this is about andif I missed anything on your
introduction like, feel free to tell us you didn't miss anything
I but I do want to give a shout out to all the amazing people
(04:12):
who helped build Three's a Crowdand 413.
I'm the co-founder and so there's There's other folks that
help with this as well. So I can't still it all for
myself, but I will say that in Three's, a Crowd started,
probably this year will be our fifth year.
And it's pretty much a black creative Collective here in LA
(04:35):
and we started because we felt like there were a lot of black
professionals. It didn't really have a
community and I'm from LA, but I've lived in New York for a
while. And when I came back to LA I
noticed that It Community was something that we'd lacked in
terms of being professionals andnot necessarily having a place
to connect. And so it started off with like
(04:58):
seven of us and then it went to 30 of us.
And then we got all the way up to, like, a mailing list of
about 150 people that either arefrom Allah and wanted some sort
of community or not from LA and came to LA.
And felt like I need folks who are in the same business that
I'm in, and that looked like me and can understand some of Of
(05:18):
the things that I may be struggling with that word.
And so, me being a new business person.
I felt like we need to shape this into some sort of like
process or some sort of like, what do we stand for?
What are we doing? It's all these amazing talented
people in here but we need to figure out what is it that we
want and it kind of came up withthree pillars.
(05:39):
One being how do we use our voice in the advertising
industry to make a change, whichis how we came about later
within 413. The second one was, How do we
make content? That's unapologetically black.
You know, we were in these roomsA lot of times and sometimes you
have to meet certain points of views, but if no one had to go
through an approval process and we could just make stuff, what
(06:02):
was that look like? And then we developed a podcast
called hex code black, which is our version of just talking
about different things that we may want to talk about.
So our content and then the lastpiece is, how do we live in our
Legacy? And how do we get back to our
youth? And so, we started a program
called Each one, teach one for high schoolers to understand
(06:23):
advertising. If they decide to not go to
college, here's how you'd have to hustle to get into this
industry. If you do, go to college here,
some things that you should knowwhen you're in applying for What
majors and things you want to specialize in.
And so, we're kind of like this holistic sort of community.
We're outside of that we networkwith each other, we help each
other with passion projects, anda bunch of other things.
(06:46):
We're getting to the point now, where folks even call us for
job. Our leads or you know, people
that we met. No.
Yeah, yeah. So that's three is a crowd.
What's crazy? Is is no one cared about
anything? We have to say until 2020.
And so we're 20, 20 rolled around.
We said, let's, let's activate that first pillar of like, how
(07:07):
do we use on 20/20 killing of George floor?
And we were in a very, very interesting point in this
country where we're not only didthis happen, but it happened
during a global pandemic and happening during a global
pandemic, where folks are scaredfor their own health, their own
(07:28):
families, their own Survival. And now you're going to start
dealing with systemic racism in a virtual environment.
And so, the need for reach out and the need for finding people
in the need for hearing different voices was so so, so
honored. At that time, I can't say it's
honored in the same way now, butI can't say it.
(07:49):
Any, it was definitely honored. And so we said, okay, so what do
we want to do? Now that folks actually want to
hear what our points of views are?
And we said, well, let's turn this.
Let's speak the language of advertising.
Let's turn this into a brief from Black America and say we
want to raise leadership to reflect the black US population,
(08:13):
which is 13%. And we want to do it by 2023,
which is this year and So we didthat in this way because as, you
know, in advertising nothing gets done without a brief, a
goal the deadline. So we gave all three.
So it's spoke the language to agencies that they're used to
hearing and it made them feel empowered to be able to fix a
(08:34):
problem, which we fix problems all the time for clients.
So why speak the same language back to each other?
And because it felt like this problem is, it's a moral
problem, it's a Humane problem but And I think if we can
activate some of the thinking asa business problem as well and
put that into thinking, that it'll Empower people to look at
(08:56):
it in the same way that they would if it were client.
So we had took the pledge and kind of ended up at this point
that we're at now. But it's a lot we can talk about
wants to dig into the conversation a bit more but it
was an interesting time three years ago where the conversation
was open to hearing this this particular Need for what is it
(09:20):
that were not getting and havingblack voices in leadership is
still an ongoing problem that that we're still trying to
tackle. Do you see the commitment of the
agencies still alive and well, three years later and on the
(09:41):
year of the deadline that we setourselves to achieve this, I
think the commitment has shifted.
So it kind of went in phases andIvan kind of went through this,
when begin end of last year because for me it's how do we
want? How do we want three?
(10:01):
Crap. I have a it's like I'm a vehicle
to this change. So what is the Legacy we want in
for 13 to be? And so I started thinking about,
well, let me recap like what's happened.
And the first year, it was much more about folks wanting to
understand the problem. So, this is why they wanted to
talk to everybody. I want to hear from voices.
(10:23):
So how do I understand systemic racism?
What is systemic racism? What role should I be playing in
this? I should be an anti-racist, so,
So the the eagerness to learn was in the first year and I want
to hear from all different typesof people, the second year
became more of why do I do it? Who's doing it right?
(10:45):
Where's the Playbook? Where's the checklist?
Where is a way for me to get started?
Let's look at other Industries is Tech doing it, right?
Is music doing it right. Is Pharmaceuticals doing it.
Who's doing it right? We found out.
Nobody's doing it right. Everybody has to say same exact
problem. They may have a different.
Set of tools. They may have a much more robust
(11:05):
leadership team or that, or thatcould tackle this a little bit
differently. Like, for example, Google owns
everything. So, of course, they have a way
to approach data, and a way to approach certain things because
they have more resources, but they still have the same
problem. And so we started to realize no
one. There isn't a Playbook, there
isn't a plug-and-play everythingrequires you to burn down the
(11:28):
house and started over which is very very scary.
Three for these spaces. The only space that we saw that
actually did it, right? Was someone whose brand new that
can start with inclusivity in mind.
So, like wanna build, you know, Fendi and that sort of thing,
her whole model is built around it from the beginning.
(11:48):
So, she has a different set of, you know, mandate than what
you're trying to change it internally from something that
systemic now that we're in year three, Now that all that
teaching and learning has happened, the shift has turned
into, oh we have it, we get it. We don't need to talk to a bunch
of people anymore. We don't need a bunch of
(12:09):
playbooks, we don't need any of that.
We now know, on our roster to fix this.
So now everyone is going internal, so the commitment
becomes a little bit more like yes, yes, yes, we are working on
it, but we're going to keep it to ourselves as to how we're
doing it and what we're doing. And I have to keep the people.
(12:30):
Year more. So because at the same time
retention is all over the place.So to say that the commitment
has definitely shifted but it shifted in a way that is almost
like has what. I think the learning has has
been ingrained in people to the point of.
(12:51):
Okay, I know how to eat properlynow I know I know what to do.
You know I'm on the diet. I get it.
All right, come thing to Nowhere.
Is this more day, Dangerous know, this is like having a guy
that says, I know how to drive and do you really, you know?
Like so let me do my thing that's interesting and then
Shannon you you on your side youjust launched a company in to
(13:15):
see Vista and use here in Rihanna on these stages that I
had the fortune of meeting Rihanna and on a panel on 2021
with Isabella and ranking were talking about, I think it was a
month of March, we're talking about the role of women in our
Etc. Are you seeing this kind of
attitude from the client you reaching out to what's happening
(13:36):
from your perspective? You've been in Hispanic
marketing for over 20 years. So you've watched up close and
personal. What's happening in our
industry? What is your take?
Well, I agree with Rihanna a lotin terms of what's happened
since 2020. I think the biggest challenge
that we have is, you can, you know, go through that Awakening
(13:59):
as an organization Even you can bring in people to help train to
help, you know overhaul, your HRoverhaul, your hiring practices
and recruitment Etc. But the biggest challenge is how
do you change hearts and Minds? You know, because you can have
all of your employees sit through training sessions and
(14:22):
try to understand, but if they don't truly empathize and they
don't truly experience it themselves, A lot of times, it's
hard for them really to authentically act and change
their ways. So I think that's been the
biggest hurdle for us and we've been working on different
(14:44):
strategies and tactics of how can we really help people
understand? How can you create that empathy?
Because there's a lot of resistance, a lot of people are
like, you know, enough enough D.And I you know, and they're
forgetting what the bottom line is the whole purpose of all of
us is to bring people together. Help each other understand each
(15:05):
other and be a good human being.You know it goes all back to The
be golden proposition do unto others as you want them to do
unto yourself. It's that simple.
But what I'm finding is that there are certain people or
communities that are politicizing this.
And in some areas I feel like it's very disheartening to say
(15:28):
this but I feel like it's actually polarizing Us in some
ways and making us more divisive.
Hmm. And Rihanna I'd love your
perspective on that as well because It's something.
We've talked a lot about internally and again, it's, how
do you bring people to the tabletogether in a safe Zone?
(15:50):
Non-confrontational, it really helped understand each other.
We're all human. It didn't matter where in the
world, we are from, doesn't matter your skin color, our
religious beliefs, you know, ourlife experiences every single
human being that walks this planet has a story.
You know, and and we can all learn from each other.
(16:14):
I love that. And and and it's I think what?
Because I do feel like it's becoming a polarizing
conversation and it's because it's like we have these the
system in place that's like, let's just call it capitalism.
We have this system in place that has been on autopilot for
(16:36):
the founding of this country. And now we're trying to
integrate a human element in a help, an element of being
inclusive in this structure thathas been designed so well, to
not do those things. And so, when we try to bring
(16:56):
those two into like the reality of what's happening in this
world, people are hesitant because I think that It's the
idea of. So, how is this going to affect
me for money? How am I managing shareholders?
How am I doing this? Why are we talking about this?
You know, the clients are only want this and so then they, they
(17:17):
go into this. This mindset of business as
usual because I have very results driven results, driven
and we work at the speed of light in this industry and so we
can really reconcile that part. Then it's always going to feel
like that's a Nice to have or that I don't have time for.
(17:38):
Or I can't really feel like we don't even value feelings in
our, in our culture and our culture.
But you know, we're trying to say let's start feeling and
work. So I think we have to deal with
our hypocrisy in general of our of our country but that's a
bigger broader conversation thatI don't necessarily think folks
(17:59):
want to entertain and work. The challenge with that is is
that there is a A generation whowill not work.
Unless this is talked about who will not conform, who will, Who
will challenge it to why not, orhow come, you know?
And so it's a bigger conversation that is eventually
going to have to be bite-size down to actually happen.
(18:22):
As we move into a younger generation entering the
workforce, but it has become polarized and it's like, okay,
enough of this, why are we talking about this still?
Because it's not fixed, keep talking about it because it's
not fixed. So then I'm starting to think
about is the work just that justkeep going.
Like keep going with the yet. We don't talk about it again
yet. We're going to talk about again
(18:43):
and again and again and again until something happens because
you know I want to say Optimistically, but also naively
three years ago, the idea of it can actually be so different.
(19:03):
Was something I still hold but it's also like, yeah, this work
isn't going to be done like that, this work doesn't move in
the same way that it moves as like a case study in a wrap up
at the end. This work is like life one coin.
I'm going it. I mean it's like you pass the
(19:24):
Baton to the next person to takeit over.
There's never going to be a cross, the finish line kind of
moment. But I think It is you, we talk
about empathy and doing the right thing, and then we also
talked about this being a capitalist country.
You know, results being a big motivator.
(19:46):
But there's that ton of that outthere that shows that being
diverse being inclusive, bringing bringing a good team of
people that have different points of view that come from
different backgrounds, Etc, delivers better.
It's yeah. So what the hell is happening?
(20:06):
Who's not, who's not reading thelines or, you know, what's wrong
with us II? Agree.
I just don't think that thinkinghas caught up with the reality.
I don't think so. I think they're the idea of
yeah, let's have a diverse team.Yeah, yeah that's great.
Great Point Stephanie, great point.
So and so, but at the end of theday, it's going to go with who
(20:27):
is running that table kind of thing.
So right that hasn't even been reconciled you.
I mean because yeah, we have a diversity but it's going to be
laddered up to the person or theteam who has the most experience
who's used to dealing. And that's typically not a
diverse team. So that's never really been
(20:47):
thick. When do we get to a point where
you could fail up, where you cangive a team something and it's
like, just let him go, we're notthere because it's too much
money on the table. We move too quickly and we just
don't have that as an as an option kind of thing we could,
but no one is taking That kind of you know, shoot they know
what works from what their experience is, you know, you
(21:12):
know, I think you have a really good point there.
And it's funny because if you step back and think about the
advertising industry in particular, and how you
mentioned earlier and this is actually something Rihanna you.
And I had talked about a few weeks ago but we're so used to
delivering, you know, you get the breathe come up with
(21:33):
anything. Has the concepts and you solve
that problem, right? You check the box and I think
just by the nature of our industry and the people who work
in it, that's what drives us. That is the next challenge.
And I love to solve these puzzles.
Let's solve it. And let's see it out there in
the world and make that change the difference with this
(21:53):
initiative. Just like, we're talking about,
it's an evolution. It is literally a societal
change that takes time. And one of the things that that
our team is also talked about it, Great Links, is this whole
generational divide, you know, and I think everything that
(22:14):
we're doing is vitally important.
I mean, I've got three multiracial children.
I've seen how they've had to navigate life and society and
their community, and friendship groups, and schools, and
everything else, and it's reallybeen awakened.
And that's one of the reasons why it's really become a passion
(22:36):
point for me, but, It's convicted as they are to help
make these changes. Sometimes I have to stop and
remind them to listen because I feel like sometimes they fail
that they're very critical of certain generations and certain
(22:58):
points of view and they don't want to hear it because it's
wrong, fair enough but they're never going to change those
mindsets and they're never really going to be able to
harness that true empathy until they are quiet and they actually
listened to the other side. Side and they can slowly reach
their hand across the table and bring them over and help them
(23:22):
understand, you know, one of thethings that it's always shocking
to me, it wasn't until 1982 and I know we're a little older 82
really? Isn't that old high school?
But in 1982 women were finally able to go to the bank and get a
loan without their husbands signature.
(23:43):
I was 1982. Yeah, you know.
Back in the civil rights movement, that was just a
generation ago, you guys. And if pause and truly look at
how far we've come in such a short amount of time.
We have had incredible strides, you know, both racially, you
(24:05):
know, gender-wise age-wise. You know, I mean I feel like we
are so much more appreciative and give equality for younger
employees who are just entering because they know things we
don't know and we realized that,you know, but they've got a much
(24:27):
stronger voice than I had. When I first entered the in
Dustry, that's for sure. So just something to think about
I love, I love what you're saying because it's almost like
I have this this when you said that about the younger
generation, I was watching this comedian and she was talking
about how yes, they have a very strong point of view.
(24:53):
But she said age requires wisdom, the will you get wisdom
with age? So it's the I've seen a few
things, I know how to work this room a little bit differently
because I had the wisdom to kindof read the room.
Versus I just have all the answers because they have all
the answers right at their fingertips.
Like, I have to go to the library.
You have it at your fingertips, like you research and sea life,
(25:16):
completely different than another generation.
But then I also think about the idea of every generation, kind
of serves its purpose. Like I was trying to explain to
To a mentee, they ask me. How did I get started?
And I was like, well, I just dideverything.
I got coffee, I've got dry cleaning, I answer phones, I did
(25:37):
whatever and they looked at me, like he'll there's no way I'm
ever doing that and the idea that I did that.
So you could actually have a jobwhere I can actually listen to
you because no one listened to me when I was coming up.
So, now that I'm in a position of being able to even hire you,
(25:57):
or even consider having, or You enter the meeting, maybe I got
the coffee because that's what Ifelt at that time.
I needed to do that, you know, and I did not have the
experience of challenging. Why do I have to get the coffee?
I just did it because that's howI was raised in to getting jobs.
I say that to say that I think the idea of progress has to be
(26:20):
challenged as well because we work in a fast-paced space.
We think it it will work in thatway, but also change does not
Societal change doesn't happen in that way.
You take two steps forward to go10 steps back.
Then you go two steps forward togo.
Three steps back. And so we also have to challenge
how we are looking at change andprogress.
(26:42):
What does that actually look like?
And I thought about when you were talking about the 1982
thing about the highwomen, I mean, I was five or six during
that time so I can just imagine what the women in my my
generation was telling me what Needed to do to get a job and
then it made me think about the Civil Rights Movement of the
(27:06):
busing of, like there was a law that said kids could go to these
schools but it didn't change thebehavior of the schools, but
they still sent the kids to the school until eventually that
became a thing. And then it also became a thing
where they never challenged. Well why not just fix the
schools where the kids go, why the kid needs to be best?
(27:26):
So that was all another thing I'm saying.
That to say that, I think we have to look at how we see
progress and maybe it's not being as critical or maybe it's
not being as like, it is so slow, it's so slow.
But then taking those small victories within it to say like
you know, there's charter schools now, or people can go to
(27:47):
all different types of schools in different neighborhoods.
Women are killing it in the workplace and can vote and do
whatever they want, and not as their husbands for permission or
whatever, like remembering, those moments as well.
Yeah, the expectation of a person starting a job, doesn't
mean you have to get all the coffee and get all the dry
cleaning, the expectation of that has changed within our
(28:09):
lifetime kind of thing. So I think it's looking at
progress and change differently because it's not, it's not just
this exponential change and thenit's perfect like that Parts
done. Next, next thing we need to
check off. You know, I love that that
optimistic point of view I thinkLooking at it as celebrating the
(28:31):
winds. I think could potentially
generate momentum to reach for more wins for more microgreens
and for more progress in a way or what are our interpretation
of progress, as, I believe thosethree are in the same page.
I wanted to ask you both about fragmentation, and when I speak
(28:56):
about fragmentation is, I think All in for 13 is an amazing or
pledge in 413 is an amazing initiative.
I think inclusive Vista is an amazing initiative.
I think add color is an amazing initiative.
How does that? It might be that.
(29:17):
It's great, like, being fragmented and doing their
efforts here and there. It's great for in a world were
could potentially People Unite, especially nowadays, right with
technology. And these be In an industry.
So, tight and close. What is fragmentation or efforts
here and they're doing for the overall goal.
Is it helping? Is it not helping?
(29:38):
What could be done better? Well to me, the problem is so
big. You need it all.
So, you know, honestly and bunches you need, everything you
need. Somebody on the ground on the
top of the middle of the wherever.
And I think too, you know, we first launched in 413 we would
(30:02):
get pressed asking us. Like what's the difference
between this and 600 and Rising it?
What's how do you, how do you feel about at Co?
And it was almost like I had to be like, we're all cousins like,
it doesn't it? We're all competing know.
We all have a different Lane andto be quite honest.
Because there isn't like a mega voice of like, one organization
(30:24):
or one holding company, or all the holding companies getting
together and saying, we're goingto fix this.
The none of us would exist if somebody really did that, but
nobody does that. So we have to exist because
nobody's owning the conversationlike that where it's a trusted
Source. Like I said if all of the hold
Companies got together and say we're going to fix this if a and
(30:47):
a and for a raise or I don't I don't know who it is said we're
owning that we're going to own that and people trusted the
source and they saw the results all this Grassroots do it may be
here but it may not because we feel like there's some kind of
trusted Source. But I will say, I do believe
that because I'm going to contradict what I just said.
(31:09):
Just the idea of like I think you need it all, you need it,
all you need. You know, will in 4:30 never be
add color. No.
Because at color serves a great cause we're small were
Grassroots. We're not trying to be like my
hat comes off. That organization has been
around for over 15 years. They have they started this
(31:31):
conversation before people were talking about black excellence
and all this. So give them their credit where
credit is due kind of thing. You know we can all sit back and
criticize whatever we want to criticize when people say why
Why isn't 413 a pledge Pleasuresare stupid?
Okay, well, at least we got 20 agencies together to talk about
the problem. You can criticize it if you
want, however, you want. So, I think everything is needed
(31:55):
and it's just coming from different angles and spokes,
because the problem is that big and I don't think anyone should
feel as though, it's fragmented.I think we should look at it as
everything has a lane in a purpose and just use the with
how we see fit. Now, it's interesting when
(32:16):
you're talking about celebrating, you know, the
positive wins that, we've had anabsolutely need to do that but
it doesn't negate. Our responsibility especially
within our industry. Yes, everybody needs to come to
the table and help, you know, help Enlighten, help, educate
help, generate that empathy. But in particular advertising,
(32:45):
the entertainment industry, the music industry.
Hello. I have some big big issues
there. It is up to us to heart to start
really resetting and establishing some of these new
Norms of what's accepted and what's not accepted anymore.
And it's a little things, you know, the languages that we use
(33:09):
the But that is featured in different creative, how can we
make sure that we are exposing the world, to what it really is
today and not what it was even ten years ago because it's
changed. It's already evolved, you know,
it's how many of our clients do,do you see, they want to
(33:32):
capitalize for lack of better words on?
Oh, I want to go reach Hispanicsor went to go reach the black
community or, you know, the elbeD TQ Community, whatever it
might be, but they don't understand the culture.
You know, they don't they absolutely are not
representative of the marketplace today and you know,
(33:54):
I think there's such an opportunity for us to set the
precedent and then help our clients and help those other
organizations out there, truly understand and evolve as well
and that will enable them to further capital.
Lies on growth of what the marketplaces today.
So, you know, I think ER, jeez absolutely the employee resource
(34:20):
groups. They might seem a little more
divisive or you know segregated for lack of better words within
the organization but you don't have to necessarily be part of
that Community to be part of theERG.
Part of the, the whole purpose of that is to help others
understand. So if I wanted to understand the
black community, you know, much more deeply, I would join the
(34:43):
ERG and, you know, really saturate myself.
That community and have a safe space to really truly
authentically, understand and empathize, you know, whatever
those ER G's are. But then you can leverage that
diversity to really maximize whatever offerings you have,
(35:03):
whether it's, you know, a specific service, whether it's a
specific product, whatever it might be.
I wonder. So I agree I think We shouldn't
Kris scientist individual, and of course, but I wonder if there
was a higher. So, to me, add color, or what
(35:25):
Mac Mark preacher is saying, right constantly or giving the
space. If you were able to connect
those dots if I was at color andI see pledging for 13.
And I don't know if this has happened or what conversations,
but I would be very excited thatRihanna created this movement
that I could potentially adopt and even In finance, right?
(35:46):
And even make within the organization I've campaigned
with, in a common goal, that hasactionable.
Like, I think the beauty is, youhad a brief.
You had a goal, you have a deadline, right?
That has actionable items that has very clear perhaps Cena in a
(36:07):
little bit. Small, a micro level, but it's a
win and my comment about fragmentation, is why the hell
would I not will? Mark, Richard not say great.
I'm out preaching about about this, this goal, or this
passion, I have, but I have thiscampaign pledge in 413, that is
(36:29):
amazing. That's built out that has a
website. That explains what it is, that
has a goal of brief like let me get behind it.
Hey Proctor guys, brand managers.
Let's go look at this, right andagencies, how do we bring this
to life in a more aggressive way?
On what not to Greece. I think it's amazing what you've
done real now, but like, you know, you don't have the funds.
(36:51):
So how do we bring that here? Well, or inclusive Issa?
Okay, how do we get on top of that?
Like, it connecting those dots of those efforts.
I feel would make us a hundred percent stronger.
I totally agree with you. And since this is a very candid
conversation, I will say that. What happens?
(37:13):
I do think we need them all Whathappened?
What I felt started to happen within 413 is we start to feel
like we were a vendor, it started to feel like I had to
almost pitch it in for people tobe like poor, are you doing our
diversity and equity and inclusion work?
Like are you saying like you're like your thing is going to
(37:34):
replace our thing. I didn't say that at all.
I said I'm offering something that could complement what
you're already doing. Well I already where I'm already
working with you know. One, two, three.
A organization. I'm already working with 712
organized. I'm already working with all of
these different ones. What's your feel?
So then it started to feel like,I don't need to pitch this in
(37:57):
this way. Like either you want to be in it
or you don't kind of thing, right?
And so because there are so manypeople with different agendas
and different things. And then you also have
internally. And we already have a team or if
I have a dni lead or if I have ahead of Talent OR HR or whatever
how about? Putting together something.
Why do I need this bill kind of thing because I get their
(38:19):
premise. I mean, you could I've heard
people, you know. No shade kind of rip it off a
little bit like oh we're going to do and for whatever kind of
thing and it's like pitch it however they want.
It's a very simple formula kind of thing.
And so, I guess what I'm trying to say is that it becomes like a
thing where we start to let the bureaucracy of how we're used to
(38:42):
operating Big Chain. Change the actual agenda where
it's like, well, why would I do that versus Sally?
And I are working on this or whywould I do this when I already
work with for the people and youknow, kind of thing?
And so now we get in our own ways and then becomes like I
don't have money for that or I don't know why would I invest in
(39:03):
that thinking or whatever it maybe.
So then it starts to feel smaller and smaller and smaller
because of the bureaucracy or the tape that we have to jump
through in order to prove the validity of it.
I mean, I'm not a dni professional.
I-i'm just a black woman who worked in these spaces for 20
years but I felt like I had to prove my show like well what
(39:24):
made you qualify to have this conversation?
You work in new business so thenthe people are asking me like
well what have you studied and why do I need to study?
And you know, right try lived it.
Yeah, but it didn't matter. It was almost like, you know oh
so you do have a full. This is not your own, okay?
(39:45):
So yeah, we're doing this kind of thinking already and house.
I say that to say that I think everyone has their way of how
they want to do it, and if your way compliments their way, or if
your way is like, how do I work it into what I'm already doing?
Then it'll work if it doesn't and it feels like it's like I'm
(40:07):
doing the hands and has too much, the ones going to really
support it in that same way. It's very similar to the way
inclusive Vista. Works with our clients.
No, two clients. No two organizations are ever
the same. They're all very, very different
(40:27):
in terms of their, I'm going to call d e and eye development
awareness, internal Acceptance in the way that they are
actually making it actionable. And so, you know, I think it's
the same with, in our industry in particular, people are it At
levels and you have to meet themat their level.
In order again, to put your handacross the table and help bring
(40:51):
and guide them. You know, we have some clients
that are going home and they're great and they're making
progress and they're very aligned and really motivated to
adopt a new anything that they absolutely can we have other
clients that have internal? Dissonance, they have certain
sites that are more resistant. They are hesitant, they're
(41:15):
scared, whether it's, you know because of political challenges,
or religious beliefs, or whatever it might be.
So we have to we have to slow down and that's okay.
You know because again we meet them where they are and the
whole purposes is to create thislevel of empathy and
(41:36):
understanding and truly changingthe mindset.
And when you have you know people that Very strongly
ingrained, beliefs ways of thinking, or you know, have
strong stereotypes in their minds, you have to help them
(41:57):
understand. You have to help guide them and
teach them and be patient. So it's been an Awakening on our
side. I think as well because you come
in and you think you know this is the right thing to do.
Let's all just be human beings and get All right, try to
understand each other and they want to do that, but it's not
(42:20):
always that easy. It becomes you see when they see
that, that's the result. And to your point we own is like
why would why would the head of new business be doing this?
I could argue that because it's good for business, it's not just
because of the goodness of your heart.
But if somebody's not convinced enough because that's the
(42:42):
goodness of Their heart or because that's the right thing
to do what you were saying and it should be because it's good
for business, it's good for new business, it's good for
evolution is good to have more ample view right and this is the
this is goes back to that first part.
You got me excited when you saidthat.
So I didn't mean to cut you off.You got me excited because this
(43:03):
goes back to we done it this wayand we've made a lot of money
for a long time. Now, you're asking me to bring
in that part. And this is where And that part,
being inclusive, beti race, religion, and politics, and all
these other things. And for whatever reason, that's
a whole, we could have a whole other podcast about how is it
(43:24):
racist political. But that's, that's a whole
nother thing. But it makes it very complicated
to have these conversations because those things become
triggers where it's like, it's about money, it's about
business. So why are we bringing that
stuff in? We've been able to run business
so long without those things. And so not I would say my
business can be better, how showme.
(43:46):
And that's going to take a lot of time to be able to say it is
going to make it better. You know, at some point maybe
everybody has to die, I don't know, but it probably won't be
in my lifetime. But I guess what I'm saying is
that what you were saying, Shannon about the teaching and
the patients and it is going back to that that conversation
(44:09):
of bringing these two worlds into one space.
And that's the Uncomfortable words, becomes polarizing.
And it becomes like, now I have to retrain the client, and the
client doesn't probably want to hear that they want to hear.
How am I going to connect to sell stuff?
How am I going to connect for them to want my friend?
I get the other part. I just can't deal with that
(44:30):
right now, kind of thing. And that's where it gets a
little, a little like, banging your head up against the wall.
But do you know what? It's one of the most gratifying
things for me. Is, when you have a client who
does resistant or really unawareof how I'm going to say vital.
(44:52):
Because it's vital to it is nowadays to really understand
the next wave of consumers. The next wave of employees, you
know, the next wave of influencers that are out there
and you can go into a board roomand you say, yeah.
Yes, these are your customers, your consumers, your fans,
(45:17):
whatever they may be today. But have you looked at the
individuals who are under the age of 20, because guess what?
It's totally flip flopped. Yeah.
Guess what? These people have a voice and
not just a voice. They've got minds.
And they've got dollars and different. ideologies and
(45:38):
perspectives at the world, and if you don't work to understand
that, You're you're in trouble. Yeah, you're not going to
progress and grow. You are going to be the old
dinosaur in the room that has resisted evolving for so long.
(45:58):
That when it's time for you to, you know, you're forced to do
it. It's too late.
Exactly. It is absolutely too late.
You know, and you look well whathappened with digital right?
A lot of people that were makingmoney on 30-second spots they
Stayed behind them, they were desperate to catch up with a
trend that was evident, right? Not as serious as this, but it
(46:21):
happened. Fascinating to me.
I was listening to actually an MPR podcast yesterday and they
were talking a little bit about this resistance in particular,
the lgbtq community, and how individuals just didn't
understand, you know, that how can a third of gen Z almost a
(46:42):
third. You know, self identify as lgbtq
and why has that grown? And it was fascinating to me
because they're saying, it's always been that way.
It's just people are talking about more is more able to talk
about it and having social platforms and online platforms.
(47:03):
Have been able people to have a voice and be themselves and be
accepted in ways that they were able to even 20 years ago?
You know, and it's like that I think with all different groups
and you know of any ideologies, any cultural background
(47:24):
experiences Etc. It's always been that way.
We just haven't heard about it because to communicate with a
friend, you had to pick up the phone and call them or get on
your bicycle and drive to their house.
You could, you know, there were no cell phones, there were no no
ways to communicate like there are today I was going to add
(47:45):
that. I think the problem where it
gets the resistance is, it's almost like your word saying
that you don't know something and you're challenging, my
thinking and how I see the world.
(48:06):
And so, when you challenge it, it becomes like, let's say, I
believe this for 50 years and now someone is telling me What I
stand for my belief is wrong or it's not inclusive or and it
becomes like a defensive sort ofthing.
It's almost like, when, when youhear people about like, you
(48:27):
know, raise yourself up by your bootstraps, I did it, and it's
like, well, yeah. But there's a whole bunch of
other people who didn't have boots.
And so, it's like, it's hard to even fathom that thinking,
because I'm just in my world andyou're now telling me That like
I'm a pain in it to like like you know what I mean?
(48:49):
Like I the way I see the world is, is tilted that's in XK.
I think that's scary for people to be able to say, like it's not
tilted. Yours is still do know.
I'm right. You know, so I don't know.
Yeah. Think it's pushing up against
something a little deeper where they're like.
Whoa! Hold on.
You can't tell me. I don't know anything or you
(49:11):
know, I've been in this Rodeo. Do we have to listen because if
we expect them to change their mind sets we have to help them
understand it was fascinating. We it was at a Buddy Guy concert
the other night here in Dallas was awesome and I don't know if
(49:31):
you've ever been to one of his concerts but he tells stories
you know, he grew up in Louisiana, he's 85 years old and
think something around there andhe was talking about growing up
with you know, no. Water.
And, you know, none of the things that most people had at
that time and somebody yelled out from the audience.
(49:51):
And I don't know what they said,but they yelled out from the
audience and I loved his reaction.
He literally called the individual out in the crowd and
said, I'm sorry sir, but you need to shut up.
It's people like you that Drew fuse to listen and interrupt hmm
that are perpetuating the problem shut up and listen.
(50:15):
In the whole crowd went wild like Yay, you know, just but
it's one of those things that goes on both sides.
We have to stop and listen to each other and just because you
have a perspective and have a perspective, I mean, I kind of
know which one I think is the right perspective, right?
But we have to meet halfway and help each other understand each
(50:36):
other so that we can evolve thatmindset in generate that
empathy. And I will meet you halfway but
also because halfway we don't know what it is.
Like the 13% and and it's hands reach potentially, right?
Like it's something that you don't have to go into a hole.
(50:57):
Philosophy of I was wrong. I was not looking at.
No. Do you agree that you can you
achieve 13 percent almost like achallenge, right?
It's that simple, right? And I think also, you know,
companies like need to see Vistashould jump into campaigns like
this and saying that's somethingI can Implement right now and go
out and sell and you do 30%, do you want to change?
(51:17):
Do you want to see if you can even achieve it and see what
happens? So, I mean, perhaps that a
little doing a little bit more of Connecting dots of seeing the
greatness, the South there. The micro efforts that are here
and there and being and trying to organize them.
That's a, that could be a potential natural Next Step but
(51:40):
but yeah. Anyway, like we, I think we need
to wrap up. I know you guys are busy but any
last words of advice anything? I mean we could go on like I
love this topic. Just hearing you guys talk and
there's so much to say about this but any any like call to
Well, I'll say yes. Every 13 has a very clear
(52:00):
formula. Latin Community is in for a
teenage, the American is in 46, just saying.
So it's a very clear formula andyou can follow, I will say you
will never get to that number until you change your culture,
until you do the harder work. That is a representation.
Number that shows all the efforts of your work and I think
(52:23):
in 2020 people thought I got it.I just need two people.
And guess what? Those two people quit in six
months because the work was never done internally.
And what I mean by the work is are they invisible projects?
Are they real leaders? Are they being promoted in a
certain way? Are they being reflective of
(52:43):
being a true next-gen or person who actually has a department?
Has a team? Are they really real leaders?
Are I do they belong there? Do they have a real voice?
Where what they say? We matters is not they're just
they're saying I think this great not doing that kind of
thing. So the work was never really
(53:04):
done. So the representation number
will never move until thus the other work is done internally.
So what I would say, I think my big stick is really the golden
rule. This isn't about politics.
(53:25):
This isn't about, you know, one group wanting to have more power
over the other group or whateverthis is literally about being
human and treating other people with a dignity respect and
understanding that we all want to have.
And the companies that are politicizing it and are scared
(53:46):
to get on board or shooting themselves in the foot because
it's the future, and it's not really the future, it's today
and you know, I guess my call toaction is just step back and,
and be real and take a look at the reality of today and what
(54:09):
the reality is definitively going to be tomorrow.
And let's all just work to be good people.
Let's quit dividing each other. It's really sad.
You know, it's to make this a divisive topic is absolutely
ridiculous. You know, the whole purpose is
(54:29):
bringing bringing individuals together in appreciating the
beauty that different cultures and life experience.
Actually brings it only enricheseverything.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, good message.
Where can people find you guys? They have any questions.
Is there any social me? What's the best way to get in
touch with you? If any of our listeners want to
(54:50):
continue a one-on-one with you guys?
What the, I can't reach that Three's, a Crowd that black we
have a link to pledge in 413 on there.
We also have a link to our podcast as well on there if you
want to be, if you want to be involved with in fourth. 13 just
(55:10):
send us a note on pledge and 413.com you want to be in, want
to hear more about three is a crowd.
You can send a note, a Three's, a Crowd that black and you can
get a conversation or something going.
Thank you. And we'll put those on the notes
of the podcast so people can click on it and Shannon perfect
inclusive. Vista.com, Albert contact
(55:34):
information is there. You can contact me directly,
send me an e-mail. Give me a phone call and would
love to talk further about it. Awesome.
Well, thank you so much for being here beyond that.
Good to see you again soon. This has been loud and clear,
the podcast, for those who give a shit about advertising, let's
(55:54):
hope we change it together. Let's challenge.
How we do things. Let's make it better.
We have a lot of space to improve.
You can find those on Spotify. Apple podcast, I heart Stitcher,
we're going to be on our website.
We're redoing our website so we'll be there up again in a
couple of weeks. Thank you for listening and
(56:14):
we'll be back and hope to hear you and see you soon.
Thank you for listening and we'll be back and hope to hear
you and see you soon.
So the representation number will never move until these the
(00:05):
other work is done internally. Let's quit dividing each other.
It's really sad. And now, someone is telling me
that what I stand for, my beliefis wrong.
I'm not a dni professional. I-i'm just a black woman who
(00:26):
worked in these spaces for 20 years.
But I felt like I had to prove Prove my show, like, well, what
made you qualify to have this conversation?
The expectation of a person, starting a job, doesn't mean you
have to get all the coffee and get all the dry cleaning, the
expectation of that has changed within our lifetime kind of
(00:46):
thing. So I think it's looking at
progress and change differently because it's not, it's not just
this exponential change and thenit's perfect like that Parts
done. Next, next thing we need to
check off this is loud and clear a
(01:15):
podcast. For those who give a shit about
advertising, this is your host. We'll cover than us.
Today is a day that we have beentrying to make happen for
several weeks. Now, we have two amazing women
in this episode or first guest is someone, you know, in the
show, Shannon bonbarb Rubio. She is our senior director of
strategic planning at Lerma and also leads a new diversity
(01:38):
equity and inclusion entity named inclusive Vista.
This entity helps companies and Brands think and looked into
what they're doing on their d e and i efforts you Might remember
her from our episode, where we spoke about launching BP, which
is our brand, inclusivity performance, index tool.
(01:59):
This is for brands. On the other side, we have
Rihanna Johnson an icon in our industry that today holds the
position of pp director of growth strategy at Deutsche, La
AKA new business. Rihanna has experienced that
ranges from media and publishingcompanies like Fox and Capitol
Records. To agencies like McGarry bound,
(02:22):
wondrous RPA, and of course toysshe is at 2021 at weak woman
Trailblazer which hits right in the spot as it is now
International history women's month where we can celebrate and
think all women for their contribution to the world and
their Industries. Truth be told.
Oh, and as I said earlier, we'vebeen trying to get this podcast
(02:45):
in the books for several weeks which would fall into Black
History Month. The reason I mention this is
Rihanna is the founder of the movement Three's, a Crowd and
the campaign pledge in 413. I would explain what this is but
I rather have Rihanna talk aboutit.
And tell that story put a littlebit of a hint is 13%, of course,
(03:07):
is the population America, that is black.
So why the hell is the percentage of our colleagues?
Not reflective of that number when it comes to diversity and
much less in leadership, I'm sure we'll talk about it.
So anyway, thank you so much, Shannon, and reona for being
here, and thank you for being inconformist or doing something
(03:29):
and changing the world of advertising into something
better. I think a lot of us talk about
it, not all of us do something and and you both are an example
of you guys taking action and doing something around this,
great. Thanks Poncho.
It's great to be back for havingme and invited me to this
conversation. No awesome.
(03:50):
I was very excited on our pre-call which was a couple of
weeks ago on what we were talking about pledge in 413
Three's, a Crowd. Can you Rihanna explain a little
bit about what this is about andif I missed anything on your
introduction like, feel free to tell us you didn't miss anything
I but I do want to give a shout out to all the amazing people
(04:12):
who helped build Three's a Crowdand 413.
I'm the co-founder and so there's There's other folks that
help with this as well. So I can't still it all for
myself, but I will say that in Three's, a Crowd started,
probably this year will be our fifth year.
And it's pretty much a black creative Collective here in LA
(04:35):
and we started because we felt like there were a lot of black
professionals. It didn't really have a
community and I'm from LA, but I've lived in New York for a
while. And when I came back to LA I
noticed that It Community was something that we'd lacked in
terms of being professionals andnot necessarily having a place
to connect. And so it started off with like
(04:58):
seven of us and then it went to 30 of us.
And then we got all the way up to, like, a mailing list of
about 150 people that either arefrom Allah and wanted some sort
of community or not from LA and came to LA.
And felt like I need folks who are in the same business that
I'm in, and that looked like me and can understand some of Of
(05:18):
the things that I may be struggling with that word.
And so, me being a new business person.
I felt like we need to shape this into some sort of like
process or some sort of like, what do we stand for?
What are we doing? It's all these amazing talented
people in here but we need to figure out what is it that we
want and it kind of came up withthree pillars.
(05:39):
One being how do we use our voice in the advertising
industry to make a change, whichis how we came about later
within 413. The second one was, How do we
make content? That's unapologetically black.
You know, we were in these roomsA lot of times and sometimes you
have to meet certain points of views, but if no one had to go
through an approval process and we could just make stuff, what
(06:02):
was that look like? And then we developed a podcast
called hex code black, which is our version of just talking
about different things that we may want to talk about.
So our content and then the lastpiece is, how do we live in our
Legacy? And how do we get back to our
youth? And so, we started a program
called Each one, teach one for high schoolers to understand
(06:23):
advertising. If they decide to not go to
college, here's how you'd have to hustle to get into this
industry. If you do, go to college here,
some things that you should knowwhen you're in applying for What
majors and things you want to specialize in.
And so, we're kind of like this holistic sort of community.
We're outside of that we networkwith each other, we help each
other with passion projects, anda bunch of other things.
(06:46):
We're getting to the point now, where folks even call us for
job. Our leads or you know, people
that we met. No.
Yeah, yeah. So that's three is a crowd.
What's crazy? Is is no one cared about
anything? We have to say until 2020.
And so we're 20, 20 rolled around.
We said, let's, let's activate that first pillar of like, how
(07:07):
do we use on 20/20 killing of George floor?
And we were in a very, very interesting point in this
country where we're not only didthis happen, but it happened
during a global pandemic and happening during a global
pandemic, where folks are scaredfor their own health, their own
(07:28):
families, their own Survival. And now you're going to start
dealing with systemic racism in a virtual environment.
And so, the need for reach out and the need for finding people
in the need for hearing different voices was so so, so
honored. At that time, I can't say it's
honored in the same way now, butI can't say it.
(07:49):
Any, it was definitely honored. And so we said, okay, so what do
we want to do? Now that folks actually want to
hear what our points of views are?
And we said, well, let's turn this.
Let's speak the language of advertising.
Let's turn this into a brief from Black America and say we
want to raise leadership to reflect the black US population,
(08:13):
which is 13%. And we want to do it by 2023,
which is this year and So we didthat in this way because as, you
know, in advertising nothing gets done without a brief, a
goal the deadline. So we gave all three.
So it's spoke the language to agencies that they're used to
hearing and it made them feel empowered to be able to fix a
(08:34):
problem, which we fix problems all the time for clients.
So why speak the same language back to each other?
And because it felt like this problem is, it's a moral
problem, it's a Humane problem but And I think if we can
activate some of the thinking asa business problem as well and
put that into thinking, that it'll Empower people to look at
(08:56):
it in the same way that they would if it were client.
So we had took the pledge and kind of ended up at this point
that we're at now. But it's a lot we can talk about
wants to dig into the conversation a bit more but it
was an interesting time three years ago where the conversation
was open to hearing this this particular Need for what is it
(09:20):
that were not getting and havingblack voices in leadership is
still an ongoing problem that that we're still trying to
tackle. Do you see the commitment of the
agencies still alive and well, three years later and on the
(09:41):
year of the deadline that we setourselves to achieve this, I
think the commitment has shifted.
So it kind of went in phases andIvan kind of went through this,
when begin end of last year because for me it's how do we
want? How do we want three?
(10:01):
Crap. I have a it's like I'm a vehicle
to this change. So what is the Legacy we want in
for 13 to be? And so I started thinking about,
well, let me recap like what's happened.
And the first year, it was much more about folks wanting to
understand the problem. So, this is why they wanted to
talk to everybody. I want to hear from voices.
(10:23):
So how do I understand systemic racism?
What is systemic racism? What role should I be playing in
this? I should be an anti-racist, so,
So the the eagerness to learn was in the first year and I want
to hear from all different typesof people, the second year
became more of why do I do it? Who's doing it right?
(10:45):
Where's the Playbook? Where's the checklist?
Where is a way for me to get started?
Let's look at other Industries is Tech doing it, right?
Is music doing it right. Is Pharmaceuticals doing it.
Who's doing it right? We found out.
Nobody's doing it right. Everybody has to say same exact
problem. They may have a different.
Set of tools. They may have a much more robust
(11:05):
leadership team or that, or thatcould tackle this a little bit
differently. Like, for example, Google owns
everything. So, of course, they have a way
to approach data, and a way to approach certain things because
they have more resources, but they still have the same
problem. And so we started to realize no
one. There isn't a Playbook, there
isn't a plug-and-play everythingrequires you to burn down the
(11:28):
house and started over which is very very scary.
Three for these spaces. The only space that we saw that
actually did it, right? Was someone whose brand new that
can start with inclusivity in mind.
So, like wanna build, you know, Fendi and that sort of thing,
her whole model is built around it from the beginning.
(11:48):
So, she has a different set of, you know, mandate than what
you're trying to change it internally from something that
systemic now that we're in year three, Now that all that
teaching and learning has happened, the shift has turned
into, oh we have it, we get it. We don't need to talk to a bunch
of people anymore. We don't need a bunch of
(12:09):
playbooks, we don't need any of that.
We now know, on our roster to fix this.
So now everyone is going internal, so the commitment
becomes a little bit more like yes, yes, yes, we are working on
it, but we're going to keep it to ourselves as to how we're
doing it and what we're doing. And I have to keep the people.
(12:30):
Year more. So because at the same time
retention is all over the place.So to say that the commitment
has definitely shifted but it shifted in a way that is almost
like has what. I think the learning has has
been ingrained in people to the point of.
(12:51):
Okay, I know how to eat properlynow I know I know what to do.
You know I'm on the diet. I get it.
All right, come thing to Nowhere.
Is this more day, Dangerous know, this is like having a guy
that says, I know how to drive and do you really, you know?
Like so let me do my thing that's interesting and then
Shannon you you on your side youjust launched a company in to
(13:15):
see Vista and use here in Rihanna on these stages that I
had the fortune of meeting Rihanna and on a panel on 2021
with Isabella and ranking were talking about, I think it was a
month of March, we're talking about the role of women in our
Etc. Are you seeing this kind of
attitude from the client you reaching out to what's happening
(13:36):
from your perspective? You've been in Hispanic
marketing for over 20 years. So you've watched up close and
personal. What's happening in our
industry? What is your take?
Well, I agree with Rihanna a lotin terms of what's happened
since 2020. I think the biggest challenge
that we have is, you can, you know, go through that Awakening
(13:59):
as an organization Even you can bring in people to help train to
help, you know overhaul, your HRoverhaul, your hiring practices
and recruitment Etc. But the biggest challenge is how
do you change hearts and Minds? You know, because you can have
all of your employees sit through training sessions and
(14:22):
try to understand, but if they don't truly empathize and they
don't truly experience it themselves, A lot of times, it's
hard for them really to authentically act and change
their ways. So I think that's been the
biggest hurdle for us and we've been working on different
(14:44):
strategies and tactics of how can we really help people
understand? How can you create that empathy?
Because there's a lot of resistance, a lot of people are
like, you know, enough enough D.And I you know, and they're
forgetting what the bottom line is the whole purpose of all of
us is to bring people together. Help each other understand each
(15:05):
other and be a good human being.You know it goes all back to The
be golden proposition do unto others as you want them to do
unto yourself. It's that simple.
But what I'm finding is that there are certain people or
communities that are politicizing this.
And in some areas I feel like it's very disheartening to say
(15:28):
this but I feel like it's actually polarizing Us in some
ways and making us more divisive.
Hmm. And Rihanna I'd love your
perspective on that as well because It's something.
We've talked a lot about internally and again, it's, how
do you bring people to the tabletogether in a safe Zone?
(15:50):
Non-confrontational, it really helped understand each other.
We're all human. It didn't matter where in the
world, we are from, doesn't matter your skin color, our
religious beliefs, you know, ourlife experiences every single
human being that walks this planet has a story.
You know, and and we can all learn from each other.
(16:14):
I love that. And and and it's I think what?
Because I do feel like it's becoming a polarizing
conversation and it's because it's like we have these the
system in place that's like, let's just call it capitalism.
We have this system in place that has been on autopilot for
(16:36):
the founding of this country. And now we're trying to
integrate a human element in a help, an element of being
inclusive in this structure thathas been designed so well, to
not do those things. And so, when we try to bring
(16:56):
those two into like the reality of what's happening in this
world, people are hesitant because I think that It's the
idea of. So, how is this going to affect
me for money? How am I managing shareholders?
How am I doing this? Why are we talking about this?
You know, the clients are only want this and so then they, they
(17:17):
go into this. This mindset of business as
usual because I have very results driven results, driven
and we work at the speed of light in this industry and so we
can really reconcile that part. Then it's always going to feel
like that's a Nice to have or that I don't have time for.
(17:38):
Or I can't really feel like we don't even value feelings in
our, in our culture and our culture.
But you know, we're trying to say let's start feeling and
work. So I think we have to deal with
our hypocrisy in general of our of our country but that's a
bigger broader conversation thatI don't necessarily think folks
(17:59):
want to entertain and work. The challenge with that is is
that there is a A generation whowill not work.
Unless this is talked about who will not conform, who will, Who
will challenge it to why not, orhow come, you know?
And so it's a bigger conversation that is eventually
going to have to be bite-size down to actually happen.
(18:22):
As we move into a younger generation entering the
workforce, but it has become polarized and it's like, okay,
enough of this, why are we talking about this still?
Because it's not fixed, keep talking about it because it's
not fixed. So then I'm starting to think
about is the work just that justkeep going.
Like keep going with the yet. We don't talk about it again
yet. We're going to talk about again
(18:43):
and again and again and again until something happens because
you know I want to say Optimistically, but also naively
three years ago, the idea of it can actually be so different.
(19:03):
Was something I still hold but it's also like, yeah, this work
isn't going to be done like that, this work doesn't move in
the same way that it moves as like a case study in a wrap up
at the end. This work is like life one coin.
I'm going it. I mean it's like you pass the
(19:24):
Baton to the next person to takeit over.
There's never going to be a cross, the finish line kind of
moment. But I think It is you, we talk
about empathy and doing the right thing, and then we also
talked about this being a capitalist country.
You know, results being a big motivator.
(19:46):
But there's that ton of that outthere that shows that being
diverse being inclusive, bringing bringing a good team of
people that have different points of view that come from
different backgrounds, Etc, delivers better.
It's yeah. So what the hell is happening?
(20:06):
Who's not, who's not reading thelines or, you know, what's wrong
with us II? Agree.
I just don't think that thinkinghas caught up with the reality.
I don't think so. I think they're the idea of
yeah, let's have a diverse team.Yeah, yeah that's great.
Great Point Stephanie, great point.
So and so, but at the end of theday, it's going to go with who
(20:27):
is running that table kind of thing.
So right that hasn't even been reconciled you.
I mean because yeah, we have a diversity but it's going to be
laddered up to the person or theteam who has the most experience
who's used to dealing. And that's typically not a
diverse team. So that's never really been
(20:47):
thick. When do we get to a point where
you could fail up, where you cangive a team something and it's
like, just let him go, we're notthere because it's too much
money on the table. We move too quickly and we just
don't have that as an as an option kind of thing we could,
but no one is taking That kind of you know, shoot they know
what works from what their experience is, you know, you
(21:12):
know, I think you have a really good point there.
And it's funny because if you step back and think about the
advertising industry in particular, and how you
mentioned earlier and this is actually something Rihanna you.
And I had talked about a few weeks ago but we're so used to
delivering, you know, you get the breathe come up with
(21:33):
anything. Has the concepts and you solve
that problem, right? You check the box and I think
just by the nature of our industry and the people who work
in it, that's what drives us. That is the next challenge.
And I love to solve these puzzles.
Let's solve it. And let's see it out there in
the world and make that change the difference with this
(21:53):
initiative. Just like, we're talking about,
it's an evolution. It is literally a societal
change that takes time. And one of the things that that
our team is also talked about it, Great Links, is this whole
generational divide, you know, and I think everything that
(22:14):
we're doing is vitally important.
I mean, I've got three multiracial children.
I've seen how they've had to navigate life and society and
their community, and friendship groups, and schools, and
everything else, and it's reallybeen awakened.
And that's one of the reasons why it's really become a passion
(22:36):
point for me, but, It's convicted as they are to help
make these changes. Sometimes I have to stop and
remind them to listen because I feel like sometimes they fail
that they're very critical of certain generations and certain
(22:58):
points of view and they don't want to hear it because it's
wrong, fair enough but they're never going to change those
mindsets and they're never really going to be able to
harness that true empathy until they are quiet and they actually
listened to the other side. Side and they can slowly reach
their hand across the table and bring them over and help them
(23:22):
understand, you know, one of thethings that it's always shocking
to me, it wasn't until 1982 and I know we're a little older 82
really? Isn't that old high school?
But in 1982 women were finally able to go to the bank and get a
loan without their husbands signature.
(23:43):
I was 1982. Yeah, you know.
Back in the civil rights movement, that was just a
generation ago, you guys. And if pause and truly look at
how far we've come in such a short amount of time.
We have had incredible strides, you know, both racially, you
(24:05):
know, gender-wise age-wise. You know, I mean I feel like we
are so much more appreciative and give equality for younger
employees who are just entering because they know things we
don't know and we realized that,you know, but they've got a much
(24:27):
stronger voice than I had. When I first entered the in
Dustry, that's for sure. So just something to think about
I love, I love what you're saying because it's almost like
I have this this when you said that about the younger
generation, I was watching this comedian and she was talking
about how yes, they have a very strong point of view.
(24:53):
But she said age requires wisdom, the will you get wisdom
with age? So it's the I've seen a few
things, I know how to work this room a little bit differently
because I had the wisdom to kindof read the room.
Versus I just have all the answers because they have all
the answers right at their fingertips.
Like, I have to go to the library.
You have it at your fingertips, like you research and sea life,
(25:16):
completely different than another generation.
But then I also think about the idea of every generation, kind
of serves its purpose. Like I was trying to explain to
To a mentee, they ask me. How did I get started?
And I was like, well, I just dideverything.
I got coffee, I've got dry cleaning, I answer phones, I did
(25:37):
whatever and they looked at me, like he'll there's no way I'm
ever doing that and the idea that I did that.
So you could actually have a jobwhere I can actually listen to
you because no one listened to me when I was coming up.
So, now that I'm in a position of being able to even hire you,
(25:57):
or even consider having, or You enter the meeting, maybe I got
the coffee because that's what Ifelt at that time.
I needed to do that, you know, and I did not have the
experience of challenging. Why do I have to get the coffee?
I just did it because that's howI was raised in to getting jobs.
I say that to say that I think the idea of progress has to be
(26:20):
challenged as well because we work in a fast-paced space.
We think it it will work in thatway, but also change does not
Societal change doesn't happen in that way.
You take two steps forward to go10 steps back.
Then you go two steps forward togo.
Three steps back. And so we also have to challenge
how we are looking at change andprogress.
(26:42):
What does that actually look like?
And I thought about when you were talking about the 1982
thing about the highwomen, I mean, I was five or six during
that time so I can just imagine what the women in my my
generation was telling me what Needed to do to get a job and
then it made me think about the Civil Rights Movement of the
(27:06):
busing of, like there was a law that said kids could go to these
schools but it didn't change thebehavior of the schools, but
they still sent the kids to the school until eventually that
became a thing. And then it also became a thing
where they never challenged. Well why not just fix the
schools where the kids go, why the kid needs to be best?
(27:26):
So that was all another thing I'm saying.
That to say that, I think we have to look at how we see
progress and maybe it's not being as critical or maybe it's
not being as like, it is so slow, it's so slow.
But then taking those small victories within it to say like
you know, there's charter schools now, or people can go to
(27:47):
all different types of schools in different neighborhoods.
Women are killing it in the workplace and can vote and do
whatever they want, and not as their husbands for permission or
whatever, like remembering, those moments as well.
Yeah, the expectation of a person starting a job, doesn't
mean you have to get all the coffee and get all the dry
cleaning, the expectation of that has changed within our
(28:09):
lifetime kind of thing. So I think it's looking at
progress and change differently because it's not, it's not just
this exponential change and thenit's perfect like that Parts
done. Next, next thing we need to
check off. You know, I love that that
optimistic point of view I thinkLooking at it as celebrating the
(28:31):
winds. I think could potentially
generate momentum to reach for more wins for more microgreens
and for more progress in a way or what are our interpretation
of progress, as, I believe thosethree are in the same page.
I wanted to ask you both about fragmentation, and when I speak
(28:56):
about fragmentation is, I think All in for 13 is an amazing or
pledge in 413 is an amazing initiative.
I think inclusive Vista is an amazing initiative.
I think add color is an amazing initiative.
How does that? It might be that.
(29:17):
It's great, like, being fragmented and doing their
efforts here and there. It's great for in a world were
could potentially People Unite, especially nowadays, right with
technology. And these be In an industry.
So, tight and close. What is fragmentation or efforts
here and they're doing for the overall goal.
Is it helping? Is it not helping?
(29:38):
What could be done better? Well to me, the problem is so
big. You need it all.
So, you know, honestly and bunches you need, everything you
need. Somebody on the ground on the
top of the middle of the wherever.
And I think too, you know, we first launched in 413 we would
(30:02):
get pressed asking us. Like what's the difference
between this and 600 and Rising it?
What's how do you, how do you feel about at Co?
And it was almost like I had to be like, we're all cousins like,
it doesn't it? We're all competing know.
We all have a different Lane andto be quite honest.
Because there isn't like a mega voice of like, one organization
(30:24):
or one holding company, or all the holding companies getting
together and saying, we're goingto fix this.
The none of us would exist if somebody really did that, but
nobody does that. So we have to exist because
nobody's owning the conversationlike that where it's a trusted
Source. Like I said if all of the hold
Companies got together and say we're going to fix this if a and
(30:47):
a and for a raise or I don't I don't know who it is said we're
owning that we're going to own that and people trusted the
source and they saw the results all this Grassroots do it may be
here but it may not because we feel like there's some kind of
trusted Source. But I will say, I do believe
that because I'm going to contradict what I just said.
(31:09):
Just the idea of like I think you need it all, you need it,
all you need. You know, will in 4:30 never be
add color. No.
Because at color serves a great cause we're small were
Grassroots. We're not trying to be like my
hat comes off. That organization has been
around for over 15 years. They have they started this
(31:31):
conversation before people were talking about black excellence
and all this. So give them their credit where
credit is due kind of thing. You know we can all sit back and
criticize whatever we want to criticize when people say why
Why isn't 413 a pledge Pleasuresare stupid?
Okay, well, at least we got 20 agencies together to talk about
the problem. You can criticize it if you
want, however, you want. So, I think everything is needed
(31:55):
and it's just coming from different angles and spokes,
because the problem is that big and I don't think anyone should
feel as though, it's fragmented.I think we should look at it as
everything has a lane in a purpose and just use the with
how we see fit. Now, it's interesting when
(32:16):
you're talking about celebrating, you know, the
positive wins that, we've had anabsolutely need to do that but
it doesn't negate. Our responsibility especially
within our industry. Yes, everybody needs to come to
the table and help, you know, help Enlighten, help, educate
help, generate that empathy. But in particular advertising,
(32:45):
the entertainment industry, the music industry.
Hello. I have some big big issues
there. It is up to us to heart to start
really resetting and establishing some of these new
Norms of what's accepted and what's not accepted anymore.
And it's a little things, you know, the languages that we use
(33:09):
the But that is featured in different creative, how can we
make sure that we are exposing the world, to what it really is
today and not what it was even ten years ago because it's
changed. It's already evolved, you know,
it's how many of our clients do,do you see, they want to
(33:32):
capitalize for lack of better words on?
Oh, I want to go reach Hispanicsor went to go reach the black
community or, you know, the elbeD TQ Community, whatever it
might be, but they don't understand the culture.
You know, they don't they absolutely are not
representative of the marketplace today and you know,
(33:54):
I think there's such an opportunity for us to set the
precedent and then help our clients and help those other
organizations out there, truly understand and evolve as well
and that will enable them to further capital.
Lies on growth of what the marketplaces today.
So, you know, I think ER, jeez absolutely the employee resource
(34:20):
groups. They might seem a little more
divisive or you know segregated for lack of better words within
the organization but you don't have to necessarily be part of
that Community to be part of theERG.
Part of the, the whole purpose of that is to help others
understand. So if I wanted to understand the
black community, you know, much more deeply, I would join the
(34:43):
ERG and, you know, really saturate myself.
That community and have a safe space to really truly
authentically, understand and empathize, you know, whatever
those ER G's are. But then you can leverage that
diversity to really maximize whatever offerings you have,
(35:03):
whether it's, you know, a specific service, whether it's a
specific product, whatever it might be.
I wonder. So I agree I think We shouldn't
Kris scientist individual, and of course, but I wonder if there
was a higher. So, to me, add color, or what
(35:25):
Mac Mark preacher is saying, right constantly or giving the
space. If you were able to connect
those dots if I was at color andI see pledging for 13.
And I don't know if this has happened or what conversations,
but I would be very excited thatRihanna created this movement
that I could potentially adopt and even In finance, right?
(35:46):
And even make within the organization I've campaigned
with, in a common goal, that hasactionable.
Like, I think the beauty is, youhad a brief.
You had a goal, you have a deadline, right?
That has actionable items that has very clear perhaps Cena in a
(36:07):
little bit. Small, a micro level, but it's a
win and my comment about fragmentation, is why the hell
would I not will? Mark, Richard not say great.
I'm out preaching about about this, this goal, or this
passion, I have, but I have thiscampaign pledge in 413, that is
(36:29):
amazing. That's built out that has a
website. That explains what it is, that
has a goal of brief like let me get behind it.
Hey Proctor guys, brand managers.
Let's go look at this, right andagencies, how do we bring this
to life in a more aggressive way?
On what not to Greece. I think it's amazing what you've
done real now, but like, you know, you don't have the funds.
(36:51):
So how do we bring that here? Well, or inclusive Issa?
Okay, how do we get on top of that?
Like, it connecting those dots of those efforts.
I feel would make us a hundred percent stronger.
I totally agree with you. And since this is a very candid
conversation, I will say that. What happens?
(37:13):
I do think we need them all Whathappened?
What I felt started to happen within 413 is we start to feel
like we were a vendor, it started to feel like I had to
almost pitch it in for people tobe like poor, are you doing our
diversity and equity and inclusion work?
Like are you saying like you're like your thing is going to
(37:34):
replace our thing. I didn't say that at all.
I said I'm offering something that could complement what
you're already doing. Well I already where I'm already
working with you know. One, two, three.
A organization. I'm already working with 712
organized. I'm already working with all of
these different ones. What's your feel?
So then it started to feel like,I don't need to pitch this in
(37:57):
this way. Like either you want to be in it
or you don't kind of thing, right?
And so because there are so manypeople with different agendas
and different things. And then you also have
internally. And we already have a team or if
I have a dni lead or if I have ahead of Talent OR HR or whatever
how about? Putting together something.
Why do I need this bill kind of thing because I get their
(38:19):
premise. I mean, you could I've heard
people, you know. No shade kind of rip it off a
little bit like oh we're going to do and for whatever kind of
thing and it's like pitch it however they want.
It's a very simple formula kind of thing.
And so, I guess what I'm trying to say is that it becomes like a
thing where we start to let the bureaucracy of how we're used to
(38:42):
operating Big Chain. Change the actual agenda where
it's like, well, why would I do that versus Sally?
And I are working on this or whywould I do this when I already
work with for the people and youknow, kind of thing?
And so now we get in our own ways and then becomes like I
don't have money for that or I don't know why would I invest in
(39:03):
that thinking or whatever it maybe.
So then it starts to feel smaller and smaller and smaller
because of the bureaucracy or the tape that we have to jump
through in order to prove the validity of it.
I mean, I'm not a dni professional.
I-i'm just a black woman who worked in these spaces for 20
years but I felt like I had to prove my show like well what
(39:24):
made you qualify to have this conversation?
You work in new business so thenthe people are asking me like
well what have you studied and why do I need to study?
And you know, right try lived it.
Yeah, but it didn't matter. It was almost like, you know oh
so you do have a full. This is not your own, okay?
(39:45):
So yeah, we're doing this kind of thinking already and house.
I say that to say that I think everyone has their way of how
they want to do it, and if your way compliments their way, or if
your way is like, how do I work it into what I'm already doing?
Then it'll work if it doesn't and it feels like it's like I'm
(40:07):
doing the hands and has too much, the ones going to really
support it in that same way. It's very similar to the way
inclusive Vista. Works with our clients.
No, two clients. No two organizations are ever
the same. They're all very, very different
(40:27):
in terms of their, I'm going to call d e and eye development
awareness, internal Acceptance in the way that they are
actually making it actionable. And so, you know, I think it's
the same with, in our industry in particular, people are it At
levels and you have to meet themat their level.
In order again, to put your handacross the table and help bring
(40:51):
and guide them. You know, we have some clients
that are going home and they're great and they're making
progress and they're very aligned and really motivated to
adopt a new anything that they absolutely can we have other
clients that have internal? Dissonance, they have certain
sites that are more resistant. They are hesitant, they're
(41:15):
scared, whether it's, you know because of political challenges,
or religious beliefs, or whatever it might be.
So we have to we have to slow down and that's okay.
You know because again we meet them where they are and the
whole purposes is to create thislevel of empathy and
(41:36):
understanding and truly changingthe mindset.
And when you have you know people that Very strongly
ingrained, beliefs ways of thinking, or you know, have
strong stereotypes in their minds, you have to help them
(41:57):
understand. You have to help guide them and
teach them and be patient. So it's been an Awakening on our
side. I think as well because you come
in and you think you know this is the right thing to do.
Let's all just be human beings and get All right, try to
understand each other and they want to do that, but it's not
(42:20):
always that easy. It becomes you see when they see
that, that's the result. And to your point we own is like
why would why would the head of new business be doing this?
I could argue that because it's good for business, it's not just
because of the goodness of your heart.
But if somebody's not convinced enough because that's the
(42:42):
goodness of Their heart or because that's the right thing
to do what you were saying and it should be because it's good
for business, it's good for new business, it's good for
evolution is good to have more ample view right and this is the
this is goes back to that first part.
You got me excited when you saidthat.
So I didn't mean to cut you off.You got me excited because this
(43:03):
goes back to we done it this wayand we've made a lot of money
for a long time. Now, you're asking me to bring
in that part. And this is where And that part,
being inclusive, beti race, religion, and politics, and all
these other things. And for whatever reason, that's
a whole, we could have a whole other podcast about how is it
(43:24):
racist political. But that's, that's a whole
nother thing. But it makes it very complicated
to have these conversations because those things become
triggers where it's like, it's about money, it's about
business. So why are we bringing that
stuff in? We've been able to run business
so long without those things. And so not I would say my
business can be better, how showme.
(43:46):
And that's going to take a lot of time to be able to say it is
going to make it better. You know, at some point maybe
everybody has to die, I don't know, but it probably won't be
in my lifetime. But I guess what I'm saying is
that what you were saying, Shannon about the teaching and
the patients and it is going back to that that conversation
(44:09):
of bringing these two worlds into one space.
And that's the Uncomfortable words, becomes polarizing.
And it becomes like, now I have to retrain the client, and the
client doesn't probably want to hear that they want to hear.
How am I going to connect to sell stuff?
How am I going to connect for them to want my friend?
I get the other part. I just can't deal with that
(44:30):
right now, kind of thing. And that's where it gets a
little, a little like, banging your head up against the wall.
But do you know what? It's one of the most gratifying
things for me. Is, when you have a client who
does resistant or really unawareof how I'm going to say vital.
(44:52):
Because it's vital to it is nowadays to really understand
the next wave of consumers. The next wave of employees, you
know, the next wave of influencers that are out there
and you can go into a board roomand you say, yeah.
Yes, these are your customers, your consumers, your fans,
(45:17):
whatever they may be today. But have you looked at the
individuals who are under the age of 20, because guess what?
It's totally flip flopped. Yeah.
Guess what? These people have a voice and
not just a voice. They've got minds.
And they've got dollars and different. ideologies and
(45:38):
perspectives at the world, and if you don't work to understand
that, You're you're in trouble. Yeah, you're not going to
progress and grow. You are going to be the old
dinosaur in the room that has resisted evolving for so long.
(45:58):
That when it's time for you to, you know, you're forced to do
it. It's too late.
Exactly. It is absolutely too late.
You know, and you look well whathappened with digital right?
A lot of people that were makingmoney on 30-second spots they
Stayed behind them, they were desperate to catch up with a
trend that was evident, right? Not as serious as this, but it
(46:21):
happened. Fascinating to me.
I was listening to actually an MPR podcast yesterday and they
were talking a little bit about this resistance in particular,
the lgbtq community, and how individuals just didn't
understand, you know, that how can a third of gen Z almost a
(46:42):
third. You know, self identify as lgbtq
and why has that grown? And it was fascinating to me
because they're saying, it's always been that way.
It's just people are talking about more is more able to talk
about it and having social platforms and online platforms.
(47:03):
Have been able people to have a voice and be themselves and be
accepted in ways that they were able to even 20 years ago?
You know, and it's like that I think with all different groups
and you know of any ideologies, any cultural background
(47:24):
experiences Etc. It's always been that way.
We just haven't heard about it because to communicate with a
friend, you had to pick up the phone and call them or get on
your bicycle and drive to their house.
You could, you know, there were no cell phones, there were no no
ways to communicate like there are today I was going to add
(47:45):
that. I think the problem where it
gets the resistance is, it's almost like your word saying
that you don't know something and you're challenging, my
thinking and how I see the world.
(48:06):
And so, when you challenge it, it becomes like, let's say, I
believe this for 50 years and now someone is telling me What I
stand for my belief is wrong or it's not inclusive or and it
becomes like a defensive sort ofthing.
It's almost like, when, when youhear people about like, you
(48:27):
know, raise yourself up by your bootstraps, I did it, and it's
like, well, yeah. But there's a whole bunch of
other people who didn't have boots.
And so, it's like, it's hard to even fathom that thinking,
because I'm just in my world andyou're now telling me That like
I'm a pain in it to like like you know what I mean?
(48:49):
Like I the way I see the world is, is tilted that's in XK.
I think that's scary for people to be able to say, like it's not
tilted. Yours is still do know.
I'm right. You know, so I don't know.
Yeah. Think it's pushing up against
something a little deeper where they're like.
Whoa! Hold on.
You can't tell me. I don't know anything or you
(49:11):
know, I've been in this Rodeo. Do we have to listen because if
we expect them to change their mind sets we have to help them
understand it was fascinating. We it was at a Buddy Guy concert
the other night here in Dallas was awesome and I don't know if
(49:31):
you've ever been to one of his concerts but he tells stories
you know, he grew up in Louisiana, he's 85 years old and
think something around there andhe was talking about growing up
with you know, no. Water.
And, you know, none of the things that most people had at
that time and somebody yelled out from the audience.
(49:51):
And I don't know what they said,but they yelled out from the
audience and I loved his reaction.
He literally called the individual out in the crowd and
said, I'm sorry sir, but you need to shut up.
It's people like you that Drew fuse to listen and interrupt hmm
that are perpetuating the problem shut up and listen.
(50:15):
In the whole crowd went wild like Yay, you know, just but
it's one of those things that goes on both sides.
We have to stop and listen to each other and just because you
have a perspective and have a perspective, I mean, I kind of
know which one I think is the right perspective, right?
But we have to meet halfway and help each other understand each
(50:36):
other so that we can evolve thatmindset in generate that
empathy. And I will meet you halfway but
also because halfway we don't know what it is.
Like the 13% and and it's hands reach potentially, right?
Like it's something that you don't have to go into a hole.
(50:57):
Philosophy of I was wrong. I was not looking at.
No. Do you agree that you can you
achieve 13 percent almost like achallenge, right?
It's that simple, right? And I think also, you know,
companies like need to see Vistashould jump into campaigns like
this and saying that's somethingI can Implement right now and go
out and sell and you do 30%, do you want to change?
(51:17):
Do you want to see if you can even achieve it and see what
happens? So, I mean, perhaps that a
little doing a little bit more of Connecting dots of seeing the
greatness, the South there. The micro efforts that are here
and there and being and trying to organize them.
That's a, that could be a potential natural Next Step but
(51:40):
but yeah. Anyway, like we, I think we need
to wrap up. I know you guys are busy but any
last words of advice anything? I mean we could go on like I
love this topic. Just hearing you guys talk and
there's so much to say about this but any any like call to
Well, I'll say yes. Every 13 has a very clear
(52:00):
formula. Latin Community is in for a
teenage, the American is in 46, just saying.
So it's a very clear formula andyou can follow, I will say you
will never get to that number until you change your culture,
until you do the harder work. That is a representation.
Number that shows all the efforts of your work and I think
(52:23):
in 2020 people thought I got it.I just need two people.
And guess what? Those two people quit in six
months because the work was never done internally.
And what I mean by the work is are they invisible projects?
Are they real leaders? Are they being promoted in a
certain way? Are they being reflective of
(52:43):
being a true next-gen or person who actually has a department?
Has a team? Are they really real leaders?
Are I do they belong there? Do they have a real voice?
Where what they say? We matters is not they're just
they're saying I think this great not doing that kind of
thing. So the work was never really
(53:04):
done. So the representation number
will never move until thus the other work is done internally.
So what I would say, I think my big stick is really the golden
rule. This isn't about politics.
(53:25):
This isn't about, you know, one group wanting to have more power
over the other group or whateverthis is literally about being
human and treating other people with a dignity respect and
understanding that we all want to have.
And the companies that are politicizing it and are scared
(53:46):
to get on board or shooting themselves in the foot because
it's the future, and it's not really the future, it's today
and you know, I guess my call toaction is just step back and,
and be real and take a look at the reality of today and what
(54:09):
the reality is definitively going to be tomorrow.
And let's all just work to be good people.
Let's quit dividing each other. It's really sad.
You know, it's to make this a divisive topic is absolutely
ridiculous. You know, the whole purpose is
(54:29):
bringing bringing individuals together in appreciating the
beauty that different cultures and life experience.
Actually brings it only enricheseverything.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, good message.
Where can people find you guys? They have any questions.
Is there any social me? What's the best way to get in
touch with you? If any of our listeners want to
(54:50):
continue a one-on-one with you guys?
What the, I can't reach that Three's, a Crowd that black we
have a link to pledge in 413 on there.
We also have a link to our podcast as well on there if you
want to be, if you want to be involved with in fourth. 13 just
(55:10):
send us a note on pledge and 413.com you want to be in, want
to hear more about three is a crowd.
You can send a note, a Three's, a Crowd that black and you can
get a conversation or something going.
Thank you. And we'll put those on the notes
of the podcast so people can click on it and Shannon perfect
inclusive. Vista.com, Albert contact
(55:34):
information is there. You can contact me directly,
send me an e-mail. Give me a phone call and would
love to talk further about it. Awesome.
Well, thank you so much for being here beyond that.
Good to see you again soon. This has been loud and clear,
the podcast, for those who give a shit about advertising, let's
(55:54):
hope we change it together. Let's challenge.
How we do things. Let's make it better.
We have a lot of space to improve.
You can find those on Spotify. Apple podcast, I heart Stitcher,
we're going to be on our website.
We're redoing our website so we'll be there up again in a
couple of weeks. Thank you for listening and
(56:14):
we'll be back and hope to hear you and see you soon.
Thank you for listening and we'll be back and hope to hear
you and see you soon.
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