Join us in this insightful episode as we unravel the mystery of seeing the same ads repeatedly on streaming platforms like YouTube TV, Hulu, and Peacock. We sit down with Caleb Williams and Moe Chughtai, leading figures at MiQ, a forefront player in programmatic marketing. We delve into the strategic choices behind ad repetition, discussing the roles of budget, targeting, ad inventory, and frequency capping. Listen in as we explore the psychological effect of repeated exposure to advertisements and its potential pitfalls, such as viewer ad fatigue.
Advertising on streaming platforms is a delicate balancing act, and Caleb and Moe shed light on the effort that goes into creating a viewer-friendly and effective ad campaign. As a viewer, if you've ever asked yourself why you're repeatedly exposed to the same ads, this episode is a must-hear. As industry professionals, the knowledge shared in this episode provides a fresh perspective on ad strategies in the digital age.
Please comment on this episode and let's continue the conversation.
Guest: Caleb Williams, Senior Sales Director at MiQ
Guest: Moe Chughtai, Product and Strategy Executive | Global Head of Advanced TV at MiQ
Producer: Rolf Ruiz, Digital Strategist, Creative Technologist & Agricultor at LERMA/
Host: Francisco Cardenas, Principal of Digital Strategy & Integration at LERMA/
Music: Pedro Lerma and the Band, LERMA/
Remember to tune in and let's demystify digital advertising together!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey, Rose, what are you annoyed last night?
I was just dreaming, Austin Powers, you know, everything is
fine. If it is good and suddenly I'm
getting after out about bacon sauce, making flowers bacon,
floors on. Yeah.
They control us like 20 times one after another Did you floss
(00:20):
see? Yes, but not with bacon, I mean,
the other ones that so who's in control of that?
I mean, who pays for that? It's a problem in the
advertising industry, we should ask them.
I know a guy in media, his name is Caleb Williams.
(00:48):
Welcome to loud and clear the podcast.
For those who give a shit about advertising, I am your host
Francisco Cardenas, principal ofdigital strategy and integration
at Lerma in the production, we have rolled freeze we're getting
ready to head into presidential primary elections, the Olympics
next year, the PGA Tour and livegolf are merging.
(01:10):
What the hell is going on in themiddle of all of this CTV users,
get hit with a frequency of bats.
That seems to be most That's if and wide.
Why is it question and to speak about this?
We have two very special guests from miq.
The first one is Mo to Ty and I hope I said that, right.
(01:31):
He's the head of advanced TV at miq where he leads a mic use
Global TV, product partnership and strategy functions having
built a business line over the last five years.
That's commitment. He has over a decade of product
and strategy leadership experience building and scaling
advertising businesses and delivering, impactful products
(01:53):
that deliver results for agencies and marketers the
second and a long friend of mine, kallab Williams, he's a
results-driven media. Professional who has spent the
majority of his 15 plus year. Career solving critical business
challenges through the power of digital media.
He has been recognized by his peers and clients as a trusted
(02:15):
advisor for premium Brands business forward through
intelligent use of A insights and media activation.
He has been from agency side to social media platforms as almost
like startups. Today, Caleb is a current senior
director of miq as a sales. So welcome guys.
(02:36):
Did I miss anything on that introduction?
That you would want to add? I love the intro and I was gonna
say kill 15 years, you know, still look 25, so you're doing
great on them. Yeah, it's weird to think of it.
It's weird to think of it in. Francisco is good too.
Good to be on this podcast with you after so many years.
This is fantastic now. What a thank you for the thank
(02:57):
you for the time. I know, we're all super busy and
I am really thankful we made. We made the time to discuss this
important topic, that I think we're all talking about it.
We're trying to figure it out. But yes, hey love.
And I went to lunch the other day and we discussed it and we
want to just see what's happening.
Why is it happening? And if there's any answers or
(03:19):
How can we guide or clients and partner up with media to fix
this? Totally, you know, it's funny
but before we get into, I don't worry we'll get into some of the
technical kind of why this is happening and how to fix it.
But as you were talking, one thing that just came to mind,
was even the fact that we're talking about sort of frequency,
(03:39):
problem is sort of a good thing in a way because it means people
are watching the ads and noticing the content that's in
because how many teeth Seen the same Banner ad on your phone or,
you know, on your desktop or whatever, you probably get this
Earth. That's a tad over and over and
over again. But, you know, on TV, you
actually notice the odds, right?So the fact that you're noticing
(04:02):
a frequency problem, but I should be a, you know, positive
thing to begin with. I agree and now and I'll just
I'll just add to that, you know,TV that, you know, fighting for
the biggest screen in the house is something that isn't going to
stop right. Whether it be Publishers who are
creating, you know, really expensive content and trying to
(04:26):
win Awards shows and then use that to leverage for subscriber
base, right? Like they need to compete for
eyeballs whether it be a marketer who's trying to get a
message out and you know build up their there they're following
or new product launches or whatever I mean it's on all
sides right? And then to your point like your
(04:47):
dad being a consumer, right? It just a bystander of wanting
to watch content and going men. Why does you know what is my
son? Keep getting hit up with, you
know, different kinds of Pampersads or something, you know?
So so I think those are those are all challenges and they have
different facets to him and so excited to kind of explore some
(05:07):
of that. Yeah, I think I think it's
right, right? Like the frequency, is there the
presence is there that's that's a good indicator.
That consumers are noticing. However, I would say some
consumers, you say Pampers had, I don't remember what the ad
that that that he was seeing, I would need to ask him, but what
(05:29):
is it doing for brands that are actually appearing?
So many times. So, frequently in such a short
period of time? I understand that that
potentially at some point meets some metrics as far as goals but
is it doing Good for the brands.I think now there's the
(05:51):
opportunity to do sequential advertising and storytelling in
a very clever way but appearing in such a repetitive way.
Is is evidently without a doubt.Even if we look at it
optimistically yes were present.The frequency is their consumers
are noticing but it has to have some sort of negative effect on
(06:14):
the brand. That's appearing.
Thoughts on that Moe? Yeah, I mean I think your
herbicide right? I didn't want to dismiss the
fact that frequency is a problem.
I just thought it was sort of interesting right that are
noticing. Okay.
It's definitely a problem, right?
Like if you feel like a brand isintrusive Lee telling the same
story over and over again and not sort of aware of how much
(06:39):
their messaging to you. It's really easy to get
frustrated without experience asa user and rather than Give me
that. I mean, you know, as the sort of
failing of the ad Tech system that's going on, you're likely
to attribute, that blame to The Advertiser themselves, right?
So, you know, why am I seeing the same papers add or the same
(06:59):
Amazon add? I get served Amazon, warehouse
adds all the time. And so there's a relevance sort
of component to that, but there's definitely a component,
which is, you know, if I see toomany repetitive ads, I'm going
to get annoyed and you know thathas the opposite effect.
Obviously of what brands are Aretrying to do with their media, I
was doing a search on. Why do I keep getting the same
(07:24):
ads on Google and there was like, two point two billion
search results from it. So there's like we're not alone.
It's hitting a nerve with people, for sure.
Yeah, it's not just those three trying to figure it out, but one
thing is, is that we saw as research in as a causes like,
you know, budget hearing that, you know, some companies,
perhaps have large in advertising budgets than others.
(07:47):
Ken's win that space of appearing more times, the other
potential could be. We've gotten so good at
targeting right that, you know, it's so precise and so effective
that we're getting the right, people many times.
(08:07):
But again, that's where we need to see.
Okay, how good is good, and how good is it doing for for our
brand? And then, I think and you guys
can Talk more about that. But the idea of AD inventory and
how would the liver in and working with different dies
pieces, especially when you think of programmatic, what is
it doing for the industry? How can we put all that in a
(08:29):
blender to make it work in a more seamless way?
We know it's working for sure, but we always want to believe
that that we could do it better.Yeah, I think so.
Just two things kind of stand out to me to begin with one is
just quantifying that this is anissue, right?
As in is. Something that one person is
feeling clearly not. If two billion people are sort
(08:50):
of moving this or, is this sort of a real issue in one of the
numbers behind it. So, leading up to this, I
actually went into our sort of data that that I like you Klutz.
We've got data on that over 60 million TV sets in America.
So we get to see what they're seeing on connected TV as well
as what they're watching on Whittier tubing and so don't use
(09:12):
any of the ads or any of the content, whatever sort of
they're saying and And what's interesting is I ran the top
sort of 26 brands that are on linear TV across a bunch of
different verticals, right? Finance Insurance, Q Sr, you
know, sort of retail kind of everything even
direct-to-consumer with sort of,you know, one or two.
(09:33):
We're in there. And what we thought was if you
looked at the frequencies on connected TV and layer obviously
linear had higher frequency, right?
You're reaching sort of the sameusers many many times and most
brands are still spending. More money on linear than the
are connected TV. But when you looked at the
frequency distribution and what that means is, how of the ads
(09:55):
that you served, how many were served heavy users, people who
watch a lot of TV. How many were serve Delight
users? What you would ideally like to
see is everyone got served the same number of ads, right but if
someone wants ten times more content than the other person,
they're going to see more ads. And what we ended up seeing was
the frequency. Distribution problem was as bad
or worse. On connected TV that I wasn't
(10:18):
later as they allow heavy streamers were being served even
more ads as a percentage of all the see TV ads.
Then heavy linear TV Watchers here.
And so, you know, we've got somegood data that have a share
afterwards, but I think that that sort of very much
quantifies. The issue of there actually is a
problem here. Heavy streamers are seeing a lot
(10:40):
of ads and then there's some people who, you know, maybe
aren't seeing many ads at all. Oh, wow.
So, it seems that I didn't know that and and that seems to be.
Then it takes the problem to be a problem over X versus a
problem of a specific technology, right?
(11:00):
Is it, it's, you know, given that it's, there's, there's more
options and it's not only limited to necessarily connected
TV. Correct?
Yeah, I will just throw in there.
That you know what Moses explaining?
I would say part of the car because trying to understand
what's causing it, right? That's that's that's what we're
(11:21):
trying to get down. To is what's causing it and I
think there's there's multiple facets and it's complex, it's
not super distilled or simplified all the way from the
publisher side, right? So that these Publishers these,
you know, networks, these content producers they're
fighting for eyeballs, right? And there's two ways that people
can can, you know, run their Media or show up on their
(11:44):
They're on their services, right?
And that's either a direct by and going to, you know, Hulu or
a Disney plus, you know, HBO MaxParamount and buying a Direct
Buy and then trying to guaranteea certain amount of Impressions
and marketer saying, we need to spend x amount of dollars a year
to guarantee a certain amount ofeyeballs.
That's one way and the other waylike you said is
(12:06):
programmatically, right in offering up real time.
Remnant inventory and deliveringit through a lot of people
there. Challenges on both of those
sides that I would just call outone being I think Publishers
sometimes are hesitant to call out their actual subscriber
numbers and so some of the timesand I'm not trying to like I'm
(12:28):
not pointing the blame at them only by any means.
I know I'm just surfacing these things right is is you know
Netflix was massive in this where they wanted to demand a
really high premium and marketers are going.
Well, that's that's way more. You know that That CPM is
significantly more than I'm paying in these other places.
What makes you so special? They're like well we're you know
(12:51):
we have the biggest largest subscriber base in in you know
the us but you're like yes but how many of them are actually
able to view ads and they weren't wanting to be real with
it. And in March, we found out that
it's roughly that they're just under a million right?
Under a million subscribers. So if you only have a million
people and you're trying to fulfill big large, commitments
(13:11):
from these Brands and dollars and at the same time, Most of
these Brands, only want to run on the top genres.
That's that's, that's a marketerChallenge and marketers.
Wanting only want, everybody wants the same.
Everybody wants the same. Everybody wants to be like, no,
I don't want to run on those things because it could be less
premium or less, you know, and I'm saying that in air quotes
because they just know that theywant to hit the big top shows.
(13:34):
Well, if you're trying to hit the big top shows, then you're
hitting the people who are, you know, lower there's a lower base
to reach because of the subscribers.
And then on top of that, they'reonly going to run ads on those.
Top shows then you're going to get hit up quite a bit, right?
And so there's multiple facets to that and then separately I
throw this in there is that while you can have direct buys,
(13:58):
you can also try to buy through exchanges and I'll point the
finger at us from the industry on the supply.
And the demand side of it is that there are a lot of
resellers in the mix right. There are a lot of people, a lot
of different Avenues and ways tobe able to go and say I want to
access You know, Hulu inventory,and you could have different
(14:19):
Supply pass and exchanges running through that.
And if you don't, if they're notbeing transparent, if you
haven't done the due diligence and you don't work with a
partner like in my queue, that'strying to create transparency
and path, then then you could bebuying it at multiple Avenues.
Plus you stack that with your Direct Buy and then all of a
sudden you're hitting that same user targeting that one dma
(14:40):
getting really precise on that targeting like you said and then
You create a little bit of this conundrum.
Can I just add some stats to what?
Caleb just said right about? Yes, through Kraut.
Really what you're talking about.
Caleb is I'm crowding about Dollad dollars, right?
Everyone wants to be sort of crowded around the top end
number of applications of Publishers and Francisco.
(15:03):
You've probably seen it all the time, right?
When a client wants to jump intoscreaming, they've got an idea
of which apps that means, right?And they're coming to you.
And going I want to be on Hulu or I want to be on whatever.
YouTube TV. I've got sort of probably two
three, four apps that I want to be on and this incredible study
in 2021 couple years ago during sort of the pandemic where they
(15:27):
looked at you know sort of 25 to50 of the largest C to B
marketers on their platform and looked at what percentage of
reachable ad-supported sort of TV host, CTV homes.
Each marketer was able to reach.So if you had a campaign of one
Uh, sure, even if that was a bigpublisher like a Hulu or
(15:47):
YouTube, or if you had a campaign of five Publishers or
you had a campaign, a 10 Publishers, what does your
campaign reached look like, right?
And what they found was, you know, these large budgets that
were going to a single publisher, sometimes you were
reaching single digit percentages of the total
addressable connected TV audience, because that's just
(16:08):
who was live on that one publisher at that, given time.
So, even though you're sort of amplifying your spend, you know,
Over and over, and over again. What you're really doing is
having up spend to realistically, who is available
within that Publishers ad supported, you know, viewer base
at that time. And they found even up to 10
viewers and up, you know, I've got to get the numbers right on
(16:30):
this, but even up to ten Publishers on a plan, you were
still only reaching about a quarter of the addressable
connected TV audience, right? And so, you know, that kind of
speaks a little bit to that problem that killed just Don,
you know, if you're going in with a heavily heavily sort of
targeted view of the audience, you know, across a few
Publishers, you're likely going to be crowding towards users
(16:53):
who, you know, exists within those worlds obviously.
So. So we see is it correct to say
that maybe you're hitting that 25% many times versus the entire
spectrum of absolutely, right? Absolutely.
And that's, that's what you knowwhen when you're able to look at
(17:14):
Use the ACR data and understand that's one of the that's one of
the the solutions that we can. You know, we can talk about our
the solves is just as a marketeryou know being able to work with
folks that give you the data behind it to really understand
what your reach is from a linearperspective and what your
reaches from a you know connected TV and streaming side.
(17:38):
You know that is what you find is that the the top 25% of your
audience, got hit You know, with60 70 percent, 80 percent of
your entire budget, right? And and what's crazy about that
is again, this is all digital and this is all connected and
that data is available to us to be able to say, you know what,
(17:58):
why don't we suppress that, why don't we, why don't we work
toward sharing the love and spreading the the marketing
dollars to those other quartilesor quintiles that maybe got hit
once not 25 times, right? And and, and And in that you
start to create a better user experience, you start to create
(18:19):
better efficiency for a marketer, right?
And that your media dollars aren't being delivered only into
one spot and it holds some accountability to the whole
ecosystem and how do we how do we achieve that?
Yeah, so I think just adding to that point on that killed just
brought up, right? You know, everyone's listening
(18:39):
to this and going, wow, frequencies a big problem.
But it's not a problem for me, because I've looked at my
frequency report and it says, three and a half times that I'm
crossing it right then. So in Excel in the Excel sheet,
it looks great. Yes.
We're yeah. It's sort of like, you know, put
all the marketers that are room,have them look left and right
and go. Everyone else has a frequency
problem, but not, not me in my campaign because I'm looking at
(19:00):
it. So I think that the number one
thing I would say say is the learning for us is it's not a
frequency problem, it's a frequency distribution problem
which is the fact that your average frequency is very high,
it's a fact that if you look at your ad server, reporting broken
down by sort of, you know, frequent like Impressions by
(19:23):
frequency group, you're going tofind.
There's one group that got served 100 Impressions and
there's one group. That's a very, very large.
I got served what impression andyour average frequency might be
three and a half but you Over that's over.
The entirety of the audience. So if there's one thing that you
can start to do as a brand or asan agency, managing your spend
is starting to look at your ad server reporting.
(19:44):
Not an average frequency level but looking at distribution
within that average frequency, So basically, your 25% got to be
200 times right back to what youwere saying?
Yeah, I think connecting the dots and it's almost like a
communication problem. And I was thinking as we were
talking about the analogy of of my wife, sending it with my
daughter, with to the grocery store and both of us having the
(20:07):
same list and going in and trying to get everything and
both coming back to the same stuff, which is what I feel it's
happening, right? Like, instead of dividing and
knowing, hey, you need to hit. It, this audience, this amount
of times, but distributor acrossthe entire audience.
So one percentage of that audience does not get affected
(20:29):
in a nasty way. So is that what you would call
when we talk about frequency capping?
It would that be more of a distribution solution?
So, like you don't necessarily Kappa 21, audience is just like
more address larger In order to meet that commitment in
(20:51):
frequency. Yeah, I would say that, you
know, frequency capping, that the way that I would Define that
is really about how you're setting up something in a
console or, you know, or not or in a DSP, right?
Where you're trying to say, hey only, I'm trying to distribute
my budget, you know, in a good ratio writer clean line.
(21:13):
And so I'm going to cap the number of people that I can
serve against per hour per day. Day or per week, right?
So that's a that's a frequency capping piece.
That is part of it for sure but but what what most talking about
and will correct me if I'm wronghere.
But it's that distribution and that's a different data set so
that's not necessarily in this setup that's not something
(21:34):
standard that you would have access to in a DSP but it's more
of getting these you know reports working with a partner
that has access to ACR data thatcan provide an overall
frequency. Tribution and it comes in to
play, you know, there's a lot ofrich don't want to miss out on
(21:54):
this massive pieces. There's a lot of data science to
it. There's a lot of analysis and
just because you can get access to data doesn't mean, you know
what to do with it. And so you have to have the
right individuals, put piecing it together to be able to make
sense of how can I segment theseaudiences?
How can I distribute it? Accordingly.
And how do I not just understandwho I hit?
(22:18):
How many households are And how many times I reach them.
But what was then the associatedoutcome.
What was the end K pi r or objective at the brand marketer
wanted to accomplish? Was it did we actually drive
people in store? Did we take them and you know,
increase awareness, or did we take them to the site to engage
with with the content? And so it's mixing all of those
(22:40):
things and layering it all together to then, understand
that distribution. And then being able to build
some really cool segments and audiences to go.
You know what we are going to Peace this out, right somos,
correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, don't worry about it.
I think they all, did I think the only thing I would build on
top of that is, you know, where programmatic people.
So, we almost make the assumption that the defaults
(23:01):
choice for marketers programmatic, and the reality
is, it's not right? The, a ton of CTP budgets, go
direct to publisher. A ton of CTV, goes through up
front, even if it's not on fronts, there's still tons of
dirt to publisher up there. And so, you know, this is an
area that I think It's really important for agencies and bread
Partners to be vigilant on whichis your publisher Partners.
(23:25):
Probably are applying frequency caps right Within Walls and
they're trying their best to sort of manage the frequency
within the walls that they have.But what ends up happening is
you might have a direct by with five six, seven eight, maybe ten
Publishers, each individually, applying frequency caps, right?
And heavy screaming, audience isa heavy streaming audience is a
(23:47):
heavy streaming audience across all of those Different
Publishers and so 3 here 3 here 3 here, 3 here and you hadn't
been a place. Still wear your frequency in
aggregate. When you look at the ad server
or you look at you know, a partner, they see are still ends
up being very, very high to thatheavy streaming audience, right?
So, you know, this is I tend to do not a lot of pitching on my
(24:09):
side. I mean, you know, this is why I
Kayla was more of a sales person.
I'm more of a kind of beating beating person.
But, you know, when I, when I think about sort of how do you
manage That I think two things are really important for
agencies. One is in as much as they can
leverage best-in-class, Tech that's out there with the likes
of a programmatic. Or would the likes of a even PG
(24:31):
deals of direct buys? I think that helps you monitor
the frequency problem across different Publishers, which is
important. And the second is, you know, if
there's cases where you have to go direct binocular, PG ad
server, reporting. What you should look at, right?
Because really, you want to go across Publishers?
Not look. Sir frequency within one
publisher. Hey, the importance of the
(24:53):
people behind it that are kind of stitching everything
together, so it makes sense, right?
So why is this not happening more often?
Is it, is it that we're not being able to sell the value of
connecting and having those analyses don't constantly.
So again, going back to the original problem.
This is still happening. The there's articles about it,
(25:16):
there's me to and adds that I'm Afraid that might be over-served
or wear out in a month. Right?
What's what can change? Yeah.
Why is it still happening? So I'll just share a couple
quick things. One I'd say is Is one get
getting your hands on the data can be costly and investing in
(25:41):
trying to do this on your own, can be massively costly and, you
know, testing and learning and understand.
It is really challenging to be amarketer because all the, all
the methodologies, all the ways that you prove, the, you know,
the ROI and you take that back to your, you know, executive
(26:01):
board, improve how your marketing dollars.
And are built on different technologies that don't always
talk and interact with each other, right?
Right. And so, you know, whether it's
an mmm model and and you know, that maybe lean more heavily
toward TV because for so many years, that was the way that it
(26:22):
was defined, right? It favors TV, that's one aspect
that can be challenging and it'sstill tricky and finicky.
The other piece that I would addin there, is that on the
programmatic side and on the addtext side, we haven't made it
easy. E for them either because
there's not a true overarching, easy way to manage reach and
frequency across everything. A lot of people can try to cheat
(26:43):
the system or, you know, play a cheat code and try to just go.
We're only going to use one console because then that one
console can tell us within theirown little universe or their own
graph of people who we reached. But again, you miss out on so
much opportunity and scale. Right?
And so those are that's, that's another challenge.
But I would say the bigger bigger challenges.
(27:05):
This data set is costly to play with and to interact with and
investing the energy the effort and the time can require a
really big amount of dollars that as a marketer who's trying
to move things forward, that might not be the utmost
priority, right? And so you're kind of left to
(27:27):
your your ad Tech Partners to try to solve?
Hmm, interesting. Yeah, especially if it looks
good on On paper and I met my goals, like, why would I, you
know, sometimes it looks bad forus as marketers to go and
present results, and, and present something that could
have cost in theory a little bitless a quarter, right?
(27:50):
Say hey, it cost 75 percent morebut, but, you know, the numbers
are right. When your colleague on the other
side, has the same numbers on anExcel sheet and spent less.
So, I get that and that's, that's an insult, those models.
Yeah. So it's so nice.
Close that everything's built into right and how we report out
on it. But I will say this, I think
don't think creative is lost, right?
(28:12):
I don't think all hope is lost. So you gave an anecdote and I'll
give you my anecdote, my nine-year-old daughter.
Absolutely loves the Aldi commercial and she will pause
whatever. She's doing to hear the whole,
you know, so it's not a sale sale.
So clever, you know, like that whole engagement that whole
dialogue, my daughter, eats it up and she can hear it with Her
(28:35):
ears, wherever it says, she might need to be watching the
TV. She can hear in the background.
She runs into the room and she just wants to watch it.
So to me I'm not saying, you know, all hope is lost there
because what what people like you and your team do and what
Lerma does and puts forward killer messaging that that's
(28:55):
parks and hits that magical connection with with humans
where a brand can interact. I think that's still valid and
And we'll cut through the Clutter so yeah no no I agree
with my daughter also to that and I'll be like every time she
grabs an avocado almost sing thejingle, right.
(29:15):
Like yeah a little marketing monsters.
This this there's there's opportunity.
So one last question is it is italso that they that we need more
Brands to jump into the space sothat we have More you know,
(29:36):
basically they offer and demand right model.
We're in a way it would make it more affordable.
There's more players as more people kind of kind of play in
the space versus having one brand, owning all the inventory
and and having that is there, something about that that's
(29:58):
happening as well? I wouldn't say we're early in
the game but still a young industry without a doubt.
I think part of it is when I is I'm thinking about that, right?
Like you think of all the battleon the war that is going on,
from a, you know, publisher Network side of it, right?
(30:21):
Where it used to be, everything was bundled into one place,
right? In cable is easy.
And then, you know, here came digital and screwed everything
up. And so now everybody is trying
to fight to build their own platform, right?
And you got Paramount trying to do its own thing.
And then you got HBO Max You know, joining forces and trying
to, you know, get subscribers and so right now unfortunately I
(30:44):
think we're in this day and age of more silos.
Not recommendation. Yeah.
More fragmentation in the content and Publishing world
because everyone is trying to keep that that money and going
your right to get the advertising dollars.
(31:04):
But then also too. Keep winning awards for their
content, right? And so, there's a lot of
fighting happening. I don't see a future right now.
We're all of that. Now, some of them may not there.
They're added models might not work and, you know, they're
their stock prices might go down.
The shoulder value goes down, and they might start merging.
And I do think that there will be, you know, we see it all the
(31:26):
time right in the news, every, every year, every quarter, where
certain Publishers are joining forces with others, but that's
been a battle from, you know, Nofrom even before digital so I
think that battle is going to continue.
Yeah they the war of subscription video on the van
(31:47):
versus ad-supported video on demand it's on I was joking if
the mo with Caleb earlier than it's incredible that sometimes
we work in an industry. If you know I went to speaking
to a conference and I'm like youguys are sometimes willing to
pay Do not hear or see what I work on every day, right?
(32:12):
So if you know, I asked the audience who here has Spotify
Premium, you know? And I know you guys are willing
like, basic, what you what you walk-in away from is the ads but
then you don't want to pay for it.
So it's like it's a give or take, right?
Like, it's a back and forth and then the fragmentation where we
thought that walking away from DirecTV were saving dollars.
(32:36):
Now, suddenly we have, you know,five or seven different Services
where we're paying double that. So it's interesting, it's
interesting. I think it's it's putting it out
there and see how the market reacts and learn from it and
then and then become more efficient with with you by
analyzing that behavior. Yeah, we just had a, I think the
(32:58):
economics of this this industry or topsy-turvy about to figure
themselves out and next two years like I don't think anyone
knows, right? Now the true value of an a bod
subscriber where you paid somebody to per month plus you
know, get some ads and that relative to an esbat subscriber
that's pure play. No ads because the reality is
(33:19):
depending on the month, depending on how strong the
market is, depending on your cpms and your ad load one might
be much more profitable than theother.
And so, you know, you get a scenario where Netflix knocks
one of its cheaper at plans thatare ad-free plans out.
And says, nope, you're going to do the ad supported model.
Or you're going to do this more expensive ad free model, right?
(33:39):
And so, all of these sort of Economics, I think need to work
themselves out of the next two years before Publishers really
discover what an ad-supported you were as worthless to them
from a monthly you know, Revenueperspective.
Yeah, it's exciting times without a doubt and we again
like this is, this is more. We as ad agencies, really
(34:01):
appreciate models and having that conversation and openness
of Partners like you guys. When you spend the time for to
do this, or coming to the agencyto talk and Educators a little
bit more about it. So, so it's great.
I think the conversation is to continue.
There's there has to be a solve.I think there is a Time
(34:21):
component. As you were saying more, as time
passes, we're going to see the week, the consumer Behavior.
What do they truly prefer or prioritize?
And then, that's also going to help marketers and advertisers
and the inventory too. Kind of saddle and distribute a
little bit more evenly if if I were to come in to a conclusion
(34:42):
of what I'm hearing and what I'mlearning from this conversation.
Yeah, absolutely. And the last thing that I would
throw their Francisco is just for marketers to is
understanding that there is, there is data out there, there
is things Partners available to them that can allow them to kind
of expand Beyond this only heavystreaming, heavy usage, heavy,
(35:06):
That, you know, audience or top Publishers and to understand
their did their frequency distribution.
A lot better. I think that's, that's one of
the key pieces, that could be a solve that we're just tapping
into an exploring. So that's all.
Well, we're coming were coming to an end, but I would like to
kind of open it up for you guys to like people try to reach you
(35:28):
or have any questions or anything.
If you guys want to share their social channels or email or
whatever you're welcome to use. Space.
Yeah I would just say you know come check out in our website.
We are am iq.com just fantastic resources that marketers can use
and see we've got blog post. We've got any time Mo goes and
(35:52):
does a new researcher or a talk on this.
We typically try to give you access to it and you know we're
someone who wants to be transparent and help everyone
kind of went in this space and so There's a lot of great
resources there I would say. Love it.
(36:12):
Mo anywhere where people can reach you.
Yeah. So I think killed is nothing
right? I think, you know, we're an
omni-channel providers. So we test a lot of different
types of media. If you wanted to focus on TV
specifically, we are am iq.com aTV.
Hey, it's where all the team research and stuff is located.
(36:33):
I also personally tweet a lot ofthat technology sense on
Twitter. So if anyone's in the market for
a hot, Not, I'm owner score ribson Twitter so they can find me
there and find some some bad takes on that.
Well, thank you so much for the openness and transparency.
(36:55):
Putting the issue on the table. I appreciate you guys being
here. This has been loud and clear,
you can listen to loud and clearon on Spotify, Apple podcast
Stitcher, I heart now. So So anywhere, where you want?
Listen to your podcast, we love the topics, we love to put
(37:16):
things on the table that kind ofmake us uncomfortable.
So if you have any topics, also,check us out later.
Matt. A agency.com or you can find me
also on Twitter. Cheeto Cardenas, thank you so
much. Okay little, thank you so much
more. It's a it's a great
conversation. More to be seen and more to be
(37:36):
had. So I really appreciate you guys
Hey, Rose, what are you annoyed last night?
I was just dreaming, Austin Powers, you know, everything is
fine. If it is good and suddenly I'm
getting after out about bacon sauce, making flowers bacon,
floors on. Yeah.
They control us like 20 times one after another Did you floss
(00:20):
see? Yes, but not with bacon, I mean,
the other ones that so who's in control of that?
I mean, who pays for that? It's a problem in the
advertising industry, we should ask them.
I know a guy in media, his name is Caleb Williams.
(00:48):
Welcome to loud and clear the podcast.
For those who give a shit about advertising, I am your host
Francisco Cardenas, principal ofdigital strategy and integration
at Lerma in the production, we have rolled freeze we're getting
ready to head into presidential primary elections, the Olympics
next year, the PGA Tour and livegolf are merging.
(01:10):
What the hell is going on in themiddle of all of this CTV users,
get hit with a frequency of bats.
That seems to be most That's if and wide.
Why is it question and to speak about this?
We have two very special guests from miq.
The first one is Mo to Ty and I hope I said that, right.
(01:31):
He's the head of advanced TV at miq where he leads a mic use
Global TV, product partnership and strategy functions having
built a business line over the last five years.
That's commitment. He has over a decade of product
and strategy leadership experience building and scaling
advertising businesses and delivering, impactful products
(01:53):
that deliver results for agencies and marketers the
second and a long friend of mine, kallab Williams, he's a
results-driven media. Professional who has spent the
majority of his 15 plus year. Career solving critical business
challenges through the power of digital media.
He has been recognized by his peers and clients as a trusted
(02:15):
advisor for premium Brands business forward through
intelligent use of A insights and media activation.
He has been from agency side to social media platforms as almost
like startups. Today, Caleb is a current senior
director of miq as a sales. So welcome guys.
(02:36):
Did I miss anything on that introduction?
That you would want to add? I love the intro and I was gonna
say kill 15 years, you know, still look 25, so you're doing
great on them. Yeah, it's weird to think of it.
It's weird to think of it in. Francisco is good too.
Good to be on this podcast with you after so many years.
This is fantastic now. What a thank you for the thank
(02:57):
you for the time. I know, we're all super busy and
I am really thankful we made. We made the time to discuss this
important topic, that I think we're all talking about it.
We're trying to figure it out. But yes, hey love.
And I went to lunch the other day and we discussed it and we
want to just see what's happening.
Why is it happening? And if there's any answers or
(03:19):
How can we guide or clients and partner up with media to fix
this? Totally, you know, it's funny
but before we get into, I don't worry we'll get into some of the
technical kind of why this is happening and how to fix it.
But as you were talking, one thing that just came to mind,
was even the fact that we're talking about sort of frequency,
(03:39):
problem is sort of a good thing in a way because it means people
are watching the ads and noticing the content that's in
because how many teeth Seen the same Banner ad on your phone or,
you know, on your desktop or whatever, you probably get this
Earth. That's a tad over and over and
over again. But, you know, on TV, you
actually notice the odds, right?So the fact that you're noticing
(04:02):
a frequency problem, but I should be a, you know, positive
thing to begin with. I agree and now and I'll just
I'll just add to that, you know,TV that, you know, fighting for
the biggest screen in the house is something that isn't going to
stop right. Whether it be Publishers who are
creating, you know, really expensive content and trying to
(04:26):
win Awards shows and then use that to leverage for subscriber
base, right? Like they need to compete for
eyeballs whether it be a marketer who's trying to get a
message out and you know build up their there they're following
or new product launches or whatever I mean it's on all
sides right? And then to your point like your
(04:47):
dad being a consumer, right? It just a bystander of wanting
to watch content and going men. Why does you know what is my
son? Keep getting hit up with, you
know, different kinds of Pampersads or something, you know?
So so I think those are those are all challenges and they have
different facets to him and so excited to kind of explore some
(05:07):
of that. Yeah, I think I think it's
right, right? Like the frequency, is there the
presence is there that's that's a good indicator.
That consumers are noticing. However, I would say some
consumers, you say Pampers had, I don't remember what the ad
that that that he was seeing, I would need to ask him, but what
(05:29):
is it doing for brands that are actually appearing?
So many times. So, frequently in such a short
period of time? I understand that that
potentially at some point meets some metrics as far as goals but
is it doing Good for the brands.I think now there's the
(05:51):
opportunity to do sequential advertising and storytelling in
a very clever way but appearing in such a repetitive way.
Is is evidently without a doubt.Even if we look at it
optimistically yes were present.The frequency is their consumers
are noticing but it has to have some sort of negative effect on
(06:14):
the brand. That's appearing.
Thoughts on that Moe? Yeah, I mean I think your
herbicide right? I didn't want to dismiss the
fact that frequency is a problem.
I just thought it was sort of interesting right that are
noticing. Okay.
It's definitely a problem, right?
Like if you feel like a brand isintrusive Lee telling the same
story over and over again and not sort of aware of how much
(06:39):
their messaging to you. It's really easy to get
frustrated without experience asa user and rather than Give me
that. I mean, you know, as the sort of
failing of the ad Tech system that's going on, you're likely
to attribute, that blame to The Advertiser themselves, right?
So, you know, why am I seeing the same papers add or the same
(06:59):
Amazon add? I get served Amazon, warehouse
adds all the time. And so there's a relevance sort
of component to that, but there's definitely a component,
which is, you know, if I see toomany repetitive ads, I'm going
to get annoyed and you know thathas the opposite effect.
Obviously of what brands are Aretrying to do with their media, I
was doing a search on. Why do I keep getting the same
(07:24):
ads on Google and there was like, two point two billion
search results from it. So there's like we're not alone.
It's hitting a nerve with people, for sure.
Yeah, it's not just those three trying to figure it out, but one
thing is, is that we saw as research in as a causes like,
you know, budget hearing that, you know, some companies,
perhaps have large in advertising budgets than others.
(07:47):
Ken's win that space of appearing more times, the other
potential could be. We've gotten so good at
targeting right that, you know, it's so precise and so effective
that we're getting the right, people many times.
(08:07):
But again, that's where we need to see.
Okay, how good is good, and how good is it doing for for our
brand? And then, I think and you guys
can Talk more about that. But the idea of AD inventory and
how would the liver in and working with different dies
pieces, especially when you think of programmatic, what is
it doing for the industry? How can we put all that in a
(08:29):
blender to make it work in a more seamless way?
We know it's working for sure, but we always want to believe
that that we could do it better.Yeah, I think so.
Just two things kind of stand out to me to begin with one is
just quantifying that this is anissue, right?
As in is. Something that one person is
feeling clearly not. If two billion people are sort
(08:50):
of moving this or, is this sort of a real issue in one of the
numbers behind it. So, leading up to this, I
actually went into our sort of data that that I like you Klutz.
We've got data on that over 60 million TV sets in America.
So we get to see what they're seeing on connected TV as well
as what they're watching on Whittier tubing and so don't use
(09:12):
any of the ads or any of the content, whatever sort of
they're saying and And what's interesting is I ran the top
sort of 26 brands that are on linear TV across a bunch of
different verticals, right? Finance Insurance, Q Sr, you
know, sort of retail kind of everything even
direct-to-consumer with sort of,you know, one or two.
(09:33):
We're in there. And what we thought was if you
looked at the frequencies on connected TV and layer obviously
linear had higher frequency, right?
You're reaching sort of the sameusers many many times and most
brands are still spending. More money on linear than the
are connected TV. But when you looked at the
frequency distribution and what that means is, how of the ads
(09:55):
that you served, how many were served heavy users, people who
watch a lot of TV. How many were serve Delight
users? What you would ideally like to
see is everyone got served the same number of ads, right but if
someone wants ten times more content than the other person,
they're going to see more ads. And what we ended up seeing was
the frequency. Distribution problem was as bad
or worse. On connected TV that I wasn't
(10:18):
later as they allow heavy streamers were being served even
more ads as a percentage of all the see TV ads.
Then heavy linear TV Watchers here.
And so, you know, we've got somegood data that have a share
afterwards, but I think that that sort of very much
quantifies. The issue of there actually is a
problem here. Heavy streamers are seeing a lot
(10:40):
of ads and then there's some people who, you know, maybe
aren't seeing many ads at all. Oh, wow.
So, it seems that I didn't know that and and that seems to be.
Then it takes the problem to be a problem over X versus a
problem of a specific technology, right?
(11:00):
Is it, it's, you know, given that it's, there's, there's more
options and it's not only limited to necessarily connected
TV. Correct?
Yeah, I will just throw in there.
That you know what Moses explaining?
I would say part of the car because trying to understand
what's causing it, right? That's that's that's what we're
(11:21):
trying to get down. To is what's causing it and I
think there's there's multiple facets and it's complex, it's
not super distilled or simplified all the way from the
publisher side, right? So that these Publishers these,
you know, networks, these content producers they're
fighting for eyeballs, right? And there's two ways that people
can can, you know, run their Media or show up on their
(11:44):
They're on their services, right?
And that's either a direct by and going to, you know, Hulu or
a Disney plus, you know, HBO MaxParamount and buying a Direct
Buy and then trying to guaranteea certain amount of Impressions
and marketer saying, we need to spend x amount of dollars a year
to guarantee a certain amount ofeyeballs.
That's one way and the other waylike you said is
(12:06):
programmatically, right in offering up real time.
Remnant inventory and deliveringit through a lot of people
there. Challenges on both of those
sides that I would just call outone being I think Publishers
sometimes are hesitant to call out their actual subscriber
numbers and so some of the timesand I'm not trying to like I'm
(12:28):
not pointing the blame at them only by any means.
I know I'm just surfacing these things right is is you know
Netflix was massive in this where they wanted to demand a
really high premium and marketers are going.
Well, that's that's way more. You know that That CPM is
significantly more than I'm paying in these other places.
What makes you so special? They're like well we're you know
(12:51):
we have the biggest largest subscriber base in in you know
the us but you're like yes but how many of them are actually
able to view ads and they weren't wanting to be real with
it. And in March, we found out that
it's roughly that they're just under a million right?
Under a million subscribers. So if you only have a million
people and you're trying to fulfill big large, commitments
(13:11):
from these Brands and dollars and at the same time, Most of
these Brands, only want to run on the top genres.
That's that's, that's a marketerChallenge and marketers.
Wanting only want, everybody wants the same.
Everybody wants the same. Everybody wants to be like, no,
I don't want to run on those things because it could be less
premium or less, you know, and I'm saying that in air quotes
because they just know that theywant to hit the big top shows.
(13:34):
Well, if you're trying to hit the big top shows, then you're
hitting the people who are, you know, lower there's a lower base
to reach because of the subscribers.
And then on top of that, they'reonly going to run ads on those.
Top shows then you're going to get hit up quite a bit, right?
And so there's multiple facets to that and then separately I
throw this in there is that while you can have direct buys,
(13:58):
you can also try to buy through exchanges and I'll point the
finger at us from the industry on the supply.
And the demand side of it is that there are a lot of
resellers in the mix right. There are a lot of people, a lot
of different Avenues and ways tobe able to go and say I want to
access You know, Hulu inventory,and you could have different
(14:19):
Supply pass and exchanges running through that.
And if you don't, if they're notbeing transparent, if you
haven't done the due diligence and you don't work with a
partner like in my queue, that'strying to create transparency
and path, then then you could bebuying it at multiple Avenues.
Plus you stack that with your Direct Buy and then all of a
sudden you're hitting that same user targeting that one dma
(14:40):
getting really precise on that targeting like you said and then
You create a little bit of this conundrum.
Can I just add some stats to what?
Caleb just said right about? Yes, through Kraut.
Really what you're talking about.
Caleb is I'm crowding about Dollad dollars, right?
Everyone wants to be sort of crowded around the top end
number of applications of Publishers and Francisco.
(15:03):
You've probably seen it all the time, right?
When a client wants to jump intoscreaming, they've got an idea
of which apps that means, right?And they're coming to you.
And going I want to be on Hulu or I want to be on whatever.
YouTube TV. I've got sort of probably two
three, four apps that I want to be on and this incredible study
in 2021 couple years ago during sort of the pandemic where they
(15:27):
looked at you know sort of 25 to50 of the largest C to B
marketers on their platform and looked at what percentage of
reachable ad-supported sort of TV host, CTV homes.
Each marketer was able to reach.So if you had a campaign of one
Uh, sure, even if that was a bigpublisher like a Hulu or
(15:47):
YouTube, or if you had a campaign of five Publishers or
you had a campaign, a 10 Publishers, what does your
campaign reached look like, right?
And what they found was, you know, these large budgets that
were going to a single publisher, sometimes you were
reaching single digit percentages of the total
addressable connected TV audience, because that's just
(16:08):
who was live on that one publisher at that, given time.
So, even though you're sort of amplifying your spend, you know,
Over and over, and over again. What you're really doing is
having up spend to realistically, who is available
within that Publishers ad supported, you know, viewer base
at that time. And they found even up to 10
viewers and up, you know, I've got to get the numbers right on
(16:30):
this, but even up to ten Publishers on a plan, you were
still only reaching about a quarter of the addressable
connected TV audience, right? And so, you know, that kind of
speaks a little bit to that problem that killed just Don,
you know, if you're going in with a heavily heavily sort of
targeted view of the audience, you know, across a few
Publishers, you're likely going to be crowding towards users
(16:53):
who, you know, exists within those worlds obviously.
So. So we see is it correct to say
that maybe you're hitting that 25% many times versus the entire
spectrum of absolutely, right? Absolutely.
And that's, that's what you knowwhen when you're able to look at
(17:14):
Use the ACR data and understand that's one of the that's one of
the the solutions that we can. You know, we can talk about our
the solves is just as a marketeryou know being able to work with
folks that give you the data behind it to really understand
what your reach is from a linearperspective and what your
reaches from a you know connected TV and streaming side.
(17:38):
You know that is what you find is that the the top 25% of your
audience, got hit You know, with60 70 percent, 80 percent of
your entire budget, right? And and what's crazy about that
is again, this is all digital and this is all connected and
that data is available to us to be able to say, you know what,
(17:58):
why don't we suppress that, why don't we, why don't we work
toward sharing the love and spreading the the marketing
dollars to those other quartilesor quintiles that maybe got hit
once not 25 times, right? And and, and And in that you
start to create a better user experience, you start to create
(18:19):
better efficiency for a marketer, right?
And that your media dollars aren't being delivered only into
one spot and it holds some accountability to the whole
ecosystem and how do we how do we achieve that?
Yeah, so I think just adding to that point on that killed just
brought up, right? You know, everyone's listening
(18:39):
to this and going, wow, frequencies a big problem.
But it's not a problem for me, because I've looked at my
frequency report and it says, three and a half times that I'm
crossing it right then. So in Excel in the Excel sheet,
it looks great. Yes.
We're yeah. It's sort of like, you know, put
all the marketers that are room,have them look left and right
and go. Everyone else has a frequency
problem, but not, not me in my campaign because I'm looking at
(19:00):
it. So I think that the number one
thing I would say say is the learning for us is it's not a
frequency problem, it's a frequency distribution problem
which is the fact that your average frequency is very high,
it's a fact that if you look at your ad server, reporting broken
down by sort of, you know, frequent like Impressions by
(19:23):
frequency group, you're going tofind.
There's one group that got served 100 Impressions and
there's one group. That's a very, very large.
I got served what impression andyour average frequency might be
three and a half but you Over that's over.
The entirety of the audience. So if there's one thing that you
can start to do as a brand or asan agency, managing your spend
is starting to look at your ad server reporting.
(19:44):
Not an average frequency level but looking at distribution
within that average frequency, So basically, your 25% got to be
200 times right back to what youwere saying?
Yeah, I think connecting the dots and it's almost like a
communication problem. And I was thinking as we were
talking about the analogy of of my wife, sending it with my
daughter, with to the grocery store and both of us having the
(20:07):
same list and going in and trying to get everything and
both coming back to the same stuff, which is what I feel it's
happening, right? Like, instead of dividing and
knowing, hey, you need to hit. It, this audience, this amount
of times, but distributor acrossthe entire audience.
So one percentage of that audience does not get affected
(20:29):
in a nasty way. So is that what you would call
when we talk about frequency capping?
It would that be more of a distribution solution?
So, like you don't necessarily Kappa 21, audience is just like
more address larger In order to meet that commitment in
(20:51):
frequency. Yeah, I would say that, you
know, frequency capping, that the way that I would Define that
is really about how you're setting up something in a
console or, you know, or not or in a DSP, right?
Where you're trying to say, hey only, I'm trying to distribute
my budget, you know, in a good ratio writer clean line.
(21:13):
And so I'm going to cap the number of people that I can
serve against per hour per day. Day or per week, right?
So that's a that's a frequency capping piece.
That is part of it for sure but but what what most talking about
and will correct me if I'm wronghere.
But it's that distribution and that's a different data set so
that's not necessarily in this setup that's not something
(21:34):
standard that you would have access to in a DSP but it's more
of getting these you know reports working with a partner
that has access to ACR data thatcan provide an overall
frequency. Tribution and it comes in to
play, you know, there's a lot ofrich don't want to miss out on
(21:54):
this massive pieces. There's a lot of data science to
it. There's a lot of analysis and
just because you can get access to data doesn't mean, you know
what to do with it. And so you have to have the
right individuals, put piecing it together to be able to make
sense of how can I segment theseaudiences?
How can I distribute it? Accordingly.
And how do I not just understandwho I hit?
(22:18):
How many households are And how many times I reach them.
But what was then the associatedoutcome.
What was the end K pi r or objective at the brand marketer
wanted to accomplish? Was it did we actually drive
people in store? Did we take them and you know,
increase awareness, or did we take them to the site to engage
with with the content? And so it's mixing all of those
(22:40):
things and layering it all together to then, understand
that distribution. And then being able to build
some really cool segments and audiences to go.
You know what we are going to Peace this out, right somos,
correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, don't worry about it.
I think they all, did I think the only thing I would build on
top of that is, you know, where programmatic people.
So, we almost make the assumption that the defaults
(23:01):
choice for marketers programmatic, and the reality
is, it's not right? The, a ton of CTP budgets, go
direct to publisher. A ton of CTV, goes through up
front, even if it's not on fronts, there's still tons of
dirt to publisher up there. And so, you know, this is an
area that I think It's really important for agencies and bread
Partners to be vigilant on whichis your publisher Partners.
(23:25):
Probably are applying frequency caps right Within Walls and
they're trying their best to sort of manage the frequency
within the walls that they have.But what ends up happening is
you might have a direct by with five six, seven eight, maybe ten
Publishers, each individually, applying frequency caps, right?
And heavy screaming, audience isa heavy streaming audience is a
(23:47):
heavy streaming audience across all of those Different
Publishers and so 3 here 3 here 3 here, 3 here and you hadn't
been a place. Still wear your frequency in
aggregate. When you look at the ad server
or you look at you know, a partner, they see are still ends
up being very, very high to thatheavy streaming audience, right?
So, you know, this is I tend to do not a lot of pitching on my
(24:09):
side. I mean, you know, this is why I
Kayla was more of a sales person.
I'm more of a kind of beating beating person.
But, you know, when I, when I think about sort of how do you
manage That I think two things are really important for
agencies. One is in as much as they can
leverage best-in-class, Tech that's out there with the likes
of a programmatic. Or would the likes of a even PG
(24:31):
deals of direct buys? I think that helps you monitor
the frequency problem across different Publishers, which is
important. And the second is, you know, if
there's cases where you have to go direct binocular, PG ad
server, reporting. What you should look at, right?
Because really, you want to go across Publishers?
Not look. Sir frequency within one
publisher. Hey, the importance of the
(24:53):
people behind it that are kind of stitching everything
together, so it makes sense, right?
So why is this not happening more often?
Is it, is it that we're not being able to sell the value of
connecting and having those analyses don't constantly.
So again, going back to the original problem.
This is still happening. The there's articles about it,
(25:16):
there's me to and adds that I'm Afraid that might be over-served
or wear out in a month. Right?
What's what can change? Yeah.
Why is it still happening? So I'll just share a couple
quick things. One I'd say is Is one get
getting your hands on the data can be costly and investing in
(25:41):
trying to do this on your own, can be massively costly and, you
know, testing and learning and understand.
It is really challenging to be amarketer because all the, all
the methodologies, all the ways that you prove, the, you know,
the ROI and you take that back to your, you know, executive
(26:01):
board, improve how your marketing dollars.
And are built on different technologies that don't always
talk and interact with each other, right?
Right. And so, you know, whether it's
an mmm model and and you know, that maybe lean more heavily
toward TV because for so many years, that was the way that it
(26:22):
was defined, right? It favors TV, that's one aspect
that can be challenging and it'sstill tricky and finicky.
The other piece that I would addin there, is that on the
programmatic side and on the addtext side, we haven't made it
easy. E for them either because
there's not a true overarching, easy way to manage reach and
frequency across everything. A lot of people can try to cheat
(26:43):
the system or, you know, play a cheat code and try to just go.
We're only going to use one console because then that one
console can tell us within theirown little universe or their own
graph of people who we reached. But again, you miss out on so
much opportunity and scale. Right?
And so those are that's, that's another challenge.
But I would say the bigger bigger challenges.
(27:05):
This data set is costly to play with and to interact with and
investing the energy the effort and the time can require a
really big amount of dollars that as a marketer who's trying
to move things forward, that might not be the utmost
priority, right? And so you're kind of left to
(27:27):
your your ad Tech Partners to try to solve?
Hmm, interesting. Yeah, especially if it looks
good on On paper and I met my goals, like, why would I, you
know, sometimes it looks bad forus as marketers to go and
present results, and, and present something that could
have cost in theory a little bitless a quarter, right?
(27:50):
Say hey, it cost 75 percent morebut, but, you know, the numbers
are right. When your colleague on the other
side, has the same numbers on anExcel sheet and spent less.
So, I get that and that's, that's an insult, those models.
Yeah. So it's so nice.
Close that everything's built into right and how we report out
on it. But I will say this, I think
don't think creative is lost, right?
(28:12):
I don't think all hope is lost. So you gave an anecdote and I'll
give you my anecdote, my nine-year-old daughter.
Absolutely loves the Aldi commercial and she will pause
whatever. She's doing to hear the whole,
you know, so it's not a sale sale.
So clever, you know, like that whole engagement that whole
dialogue, my daughter, eats it up and she can hear it with Her
(28:35):
ears, wherever it says, she might need to be watching the
TV. She can hear in the background.
She runs into the room and she just wants to watch it.
So to me I'm not saying, you know, all hope is lost there
because what what people like you and your team do and what
Lerma does and puts forward killer messaging that that's
(28:55):
parks and hits that magical connection with with humans
where a brand can interact. I think that's still valid and
And we'll cut through the Clutter so yeah no no I agree
with my daughter also to that and I'll be like every time she
grabs an avocado almost sing thejingle, right.
(29:15):
Like yeah a little marketing monsters.
This this there's there's opportunity.
So one last question is it is italso that they that we need more
Brands to jump into the space sothat we have More you know,
(29:36):
basically they offer and demand right model.
We're in a way it would make it more affordable.
There's more players as more people kind of kind of play in
the space versus having one brand, owning all the inventory
and and having that is there, something about that that's
(29:58):
happening as well? I wouldn't say we're early in
the game but still a young industry without a doubt.
I think part of it is when I is I'm thinking about that, right?
Like you think of all the battleon the war that is going on,
from a, you know, publisher Network side of it, right?
(30:21):
Where it used to be, everything was bundled into one place,
right? In cable is easy.
And then, you know, here came digital and screwed everything
up. And so now everybody is trying
to fight to build their own platform, right?
And you got Paramount trying to do its own thing.
And then you got HBO Max You know, joining forces and trying
to, you know, get subscribers and so right now unfortunately I
(30:44):
think we're in this day and age of more silos.
Not recommendation. Yeah.
More fragmentation in the content and Publishing world
because everyone is trying to keep that that money and going
your right to get the advertising dollars.
(31:04):
But then also too. Keep winning awards for their
content, right? And so, there's a lot of
fighting happening. I don't see a future right now.
We're all of that. Now, some of them may not there.
They're added models might not work and, you know, they're
their stock prices might go down.
The shoulder value goes down, and they might start merging.
And I do think that there will be, you know, we see it all the
(31:26):
time right in the news, every, every year, every quarter, where
certain Publishers are joining forces with others, but that's
been a battle from, you know, Nofrom even before digital so I
think that battle is going to continue.
Yeah they the war of subscription video on the van
(31:47):
versus ad-supported video on demand it's on I was joking if
the mo with Caleb earlier than it's incredible that sometimes
we work in an industry. If you know I went to speaking
to a conference and I'm like youguys are sometimes willing to
pay Do not hear or see what I work on every day, right?
(32:12):
So if you know, I asked the audience who here has Spotify
Premium, you know? And I know you guys are willing
like, basic, what you what you walk-in away from is the ads but
then you don't want to pay for it.
So it's like it's a give or take, right?
Like, it's a back and forth and then the fragmentation where we
thought that walking away from DirecTV were saving dollars.
(32:36):
Now, suddenly we have, you know,five or seven different Services
where we're paying double that. So it's interesting, it's
interesting. I think it's it's putting it out
there and see how the market reacts and learn from it and
then and then become more efficient with with you by
analyzing that behavior. Yeah, we just had a, I think the
(32:58):
economics of this this industry or topsy-turvy about to figure
themselves out and next two years like I don't think anyone
knows, right? Now the true value of an a bod
subscriber where you paid somebody to per month plus you
know, get some ads and that relative to an esbat subscriber
that's pure play. No ads because the reality is
(33:19):
depending on the month, depending on how strong the
market is, depending on your cpms and your ad load one might
be much more profitable than theother.
And so, you know, you get a scenario where Netflix knocks
one of its cheaper at plans thatare ad-free plans out.
And says, nope, you're going to do the ad supported model.
Or you're going to do this more expensive ad free model, right?
(33:39):
And so, all of these sort of Economics, I think need to work
themselves out of the next two years before Publishers really
discover what an ad-supported you were as worthless to them
from a monthly you know, Revenueperspective.
Yeah, it's exciting times without a doubt and we again
like this is, this is more. We as ad agencies, really
(34:01):
appreciate models and having that conversation and openness
of Partners like you guys. When you spend the time for to
do this, or coming to the agencyto talk and Educators a little
bit more about it. So, so it's great.
I think the conversation is to continue.
There's there has to be a solve.I think there is a Time
(34:21):
component. As you were saying more, as time
passes, we're going to see the week, the consumer Behavior.
What do they truly prefer or prioritize?
And then, that's also going to help marketers and advertisers
and the inventory too. Kind of saddle and distribute a
little bit more evenly if if I were to come in to a conclusion
(34:42):
of what I'm hearing and what I'mlearning from this conversation.
Yeah, absolutely. And the last thing that I would
throw their Francisco is just for marketers to is
understanding that there is, there is data out there, there
is things Partners available to them that can allow them to kind
of expand Beyond this only heavystreaming, heavy usage, heavy,
(35:06):
That, you know, audience or top Publishers and to understand
their did their frequency distribution.
A lot better. I think that's, that's one of
the key pieces, that could be a solve that we're just tapping
into an exploring. So that's all.
Well, we're coming were coming to an end, but I would like to
kind of open it up for you guys to like people try to reach you
(35:28):
or have any questions or anything.
If you guys want to share their social channels or email or
whatever you're welcome to use. Space.
Yeah I would just say you know come check out in our website.
We are am iq.com just fantastic resources that marketers can use
and see we've got blog post. We've got any time Mo goes and
(35:52):
does a new researcher or a talk on this.
We typically try to give you access to it and you know we're
someone who wants to be transparent and help everyone
kind of went in this space and so There's a lot of great
resources there I would say. Love it.
(36:12):
Mo anywhere where people can reach you.
Yeah. So I think killed is nothing
right? I think, you know, we're an
omni-channel providers. So we test a lot of different
types of media. If you wanted to focus on TV
specifically, we are am iq.com aTV.
Hey, it's where all the team research and stuff is located.
(36:33):
I also personally tweet a lot ofthat technology sense on
Twitter. So if anyone's in the market for
a hot, Not, I'm owner score ribson Twitter so they can find me
there and find some some bad takes on that.
Well, thank you so much for the openness and transparency.
(36:55):
Putting the issue on the table. I appreciate you guys being
here. This has been loud and clear,
you can listen to loud and clearon on Spotify, Apple podcast
Stitcher, I heart now. So So anywhere, where you want?
Listen to your podcast, we love the topics, we love to put
(37:16):
things on the table that kind ofmake us uncomfortable.
So if you have any topics, also,check us out later.
Matt. A agency.com or you can find me
also on Twitter. Cheeto Cardenas, thank you so
much. Okay little, thank you so much
more. It's a it's a great
conversation. More to be seen and more to be
(37:36):
had. So I really appreciate you guys
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