July 30, 2025 • 26 mins
In this episode of the MGMA Business Solutions Podcast, Dr. Michael Blackman, Chief Medical Officer at Greenway Health, explores how AI and automation can help reduce provider burnout and improve medical practice efficiency. The conversation highlights Greenway's Clinical Assist technology while offering insights for medical practice leaders looking to leverage AI as a supportive tool rather than a replacement for healthcare professionals.
Key Takeaways:
- 05:39 AI as an Assistant, Not a Replacement
- 08:47 Ambient Documentation with Greenway Clinical Assist
- 13:19 Time Pressure Reduction
- 15:27 Staff Adoption Strategy
- 18:49 Enhanced Information Retrieval
- 20:17 Future Trends in Clinical Decision Support, Virtual Care, and Healthcare Interoperability
Resources:
Visit the Greenway Health website
Learn more about Greenway Clinical Assist
Connect with Dr. Michael Blackman on LinkedIn
Additional Resources:
Email us at dwilliams@mgma.com if you would like to appear on an episode. If you have a question about your practice that you would like us to answer, send an email to advisor@mgma.com. Don't forget to subscribe to our network wherever you get your podcasts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Daniel Williams (00:02):
Well, hi, everyone. I'm Daniel Williams,
senior editor at MGMA and hostof the MGMA Podcast Network. We
are back today with another MGMAbusiness solutions podcast, and
we have a repeat guest, someonewho's been on our show numerous
times. That's doctor MichaelBlackman. He's chief medical
(00:23):
officer at Greenway Health, anddoctor Blackman is a primary
care physician and a health caretechnology leader.
Doctor Blackman, welcome back tothe show.
Dr. Michael Blackman (00:34):
Thanks. Pleasure to be here.
Daniel Williams (00:36):
I'm just so glad that we we enjoyed each
other's company enough, soyou're back on the show with us.
And for this episode, we'regonna talk a lot about AI
automation, how it's helpingprovider burnout, and helping
alleviate some of those painpoints in that regard. We're
(00:56):
also gonna be talking aboutGreenway Clinical Assist. We'll
probably define some of thetopics and terms that we're
gonna be talking about. Butfirst, even though you've been
on the show numerous times, whatI wanted to do was just have you
share a little bit about yourbackground just in case
someone's never heard the showsthat you've been on.
(01:17):
So if you don't mind just givingus a little bit about that
background.
Dr. Michael Blackman (01:21):
Yeah. So, obviously, as you mentioned, I'm
I'm the chief medical officer atGreenway Health. I'm a primary
chair physician by training,trained in both internal
medicine and pediatrics. So thatsort of gives you, you know, my
my view of the world a littlebit. And despite working now on
the technology side for, dare Isay, you know, fifteen plus
years, first as the ChiefMedical Information Officer at a
(01:45):
health system and then movingover to the vendor side, I'm not
the technology guy.
I'm one who looks at it says,Okay, what can these tools do
for us? How can they makepeople's lives better? What the
technology is? Yes. It can beexciting and fun and all of
that, but that's traditionallynot where my focus is.
Daniel Williams (02:07):
Okay. And then for anybody who's listening,
these are our medical practiceleaders. Most will know Greenway
Health for anybody who doesn't.Just share a little bit about
Greenway Health and what yourrole is there.
Dr. Michael Blackman (02:19):
Yeah. So Greenway Health focuses on the
ambulatory space. We arestrictly in the ambulatory space
looking at providing, you know,a full set of solutions to
ambulatory practices to helpthem succeed.
Daniel Williams (02:31):
You and I and your team shared some
information back and forth so wewould really be able to zero in
on a particular topic to talkabout. So even though, as you
said, you're not maybe, writingcode or anything of that nature,
that's not your background. Butwhat I have learned from talking
to your team, Greenway reallytakes a team approach to health
(02:54):
care technology. Talk a littlebit because you are a leader. So
you might not be a, you know,quote, tech guy, but you are a
leader.
And so you understand howimportant it is to have that
team based approach. Talk aboutthat and how Greenway can help
medical practices really kind ofembrace that team approach.
Dr. Michael Blackman (03:17):
Yeah. No. And so we take a team approach,
not only in the work we dowithin Greenway, it takes a
village. We also want to supportthe team that it takes to run a
practice. There is no person,whether that be the person at
the front desk, a medicalassistant, a nurse, a physician,
an administrator, anyone else,can run a medical practice on
(03:40):
their own and provide good careon their It requires that team
approach and so as we buildsolutions, we wanna be certain
that we're supporting thatentire team, that we're giving
people the ability to do thework they do best, to do the
most important thing, which issupport patients.
Daniel Williams (03:59):
Right. Well, thank you for sharing that. So
that topic that we're reallygonna zero in on today is about
AI and burnout. I'm just I'msitting with that for a second
because that is the topic thatwe we hear out there. Wow.
We've got AI going on. We've gotburnout, but we're really trying
(04:22):
to look at how we can mesh thosetogether, how AI can alleviate
some of those incredible painpoints that our clinicians and
their support team is goingthrough. Talk about that a
little bit.
Dr. Michael Blackman (04:33):
We've talked about burnout for a a
long time. Yeah. And we peoplehave done different things and
different approach to say, howcan you eliminate burnout? You
often hear about, you know, callit different things, but pajama
time. People taking work homehome with them in the evening.
Certainly, when I was in fulltime practice, I don't think we
called it pajama time then, butI certainly did. Didn't call it
(04:56):
that, but certainly broughtstuff home. Sure. You know, you
know, after I put my kids tobed, you can often find me
sitting on the couch callingpatients, and patients often be
surprised. They get a call fromme at, you know, eight or 09:00
at night.
But that's when I had the timeto do it, and it was important
to catch up with them. You know,AI and and people use the term
very broadly, it can mean a lotof different things.
Daniel Williams (05:18):
Right.
Dr. Michael Blackman (05:19):
But I think it comes down to what are
the available tools that canreally help? Think about it as
an assistant. It's not areplacement, but an assistant.
And there are some things thatcan replace in some tasks. Some
tasks, it's an additional speed.
(05:39):
I use AI tools a lot myself fordoing different things. Even for
something as simple as if I'mthinking about creating a
presentation, I could sit andwrite an initial draft and it
might take me a while. I canequally take AI and say, hey,
what are the seven things or 10things you would talk about on
this topic?
Daniel Williams (05:58):
Right.
Dr. Michael Blackman (05:58):
And then edit it from there. I think the
point of it being an assistantis critical, especially if we
get to other pieces like usingAI for clinical decision
support. Notice I said thatsupport and not decision making,
this still requires humanoversight and paying attention
to what you're looking at. Youknow? AI can still hallucinate
(06:20):
in certain situations, so yougotta make sure what's what's
being presented is real andmakes sense.
Daniel Williams (06:25):
You make great points there, and we've talked
about that before on this show.And, obviously, anyone who's
interacted with, the differentAI tools that are out there,
they'll be humming along, andthen all of a sudden, there's
something just, as you said, thehallucination, the just getting
things completely wrong. Or ifyou are looking at, as you were
(06:49):
saying, making a presentation,it's not the right tone. You
know? It's not really hittingthe way you wanna address it.
So I think what's so important,and this is the point we make a
lot here, at least in this dayand age, We're not replacing
jobs per se, but what we'redoing is really giving us,
whether it's you, me,physicians, clinicians, anybody
else out there, some reallyimportant tools. And then we
(07:11):
have to use our wisdom, ourknowledge, our education base.
And it sounds like you've reallydealt with that as well.
Dr. Michael Blackman (07:19):
Yeah. You know, it often comes up. People
say, well, is it gonna replacepeople? It's gonna cause people
to do different things. And Idon't know where this quote
originated.
It it's not mine, but I'm gonnashare it. You know, people talk,
oh, will AI replace doctors? Andthe short answer to that is no.
But likely, doctors who use AImay replace those who don't.
Daniel Williams (07:42):
I love that quote. I mean, not not for what
it means for Vivo's job, butthat that's the reality that
we're in. And I think the peoplewho really are making that
adoption to using the tools andusing them wisely are gonna be
ahead of the ones who aren't. Imean, that's just the clear way
to say it. So let's talk about avery specific AI tool.
(08:02):
That's the one that Greenway isworking with. It's Greenway
Clinical Assist. Talk about thatbecause in the name itself, it's
not Greenway Clinical Replace.It's Greenway Clinical Assist.
Talk about a little bit aboutwhat you see in its usage as a
tool and the way that you'reseeing administrators and
practice leaders using it?
Dr. Michael Blackman (08:24):
So our vision for Greenway Clinical
Assist is just that. It's anassistant that helps you, you
know, across the board as you'reworking your way through any
variety of tasks in thepractice. The place that it's
starting is assisting withdocumentation. At its core, it
starts with being an ambientdocumentation solution. So as
you're having a conversationwith the patient, this system
(08:48):
listens to the conversation andthen writes a note based on that
conversation, leaving in, youknow, the the pertinent medical
parts and stripping out otherpieces that it doesn't deem are
pertinent.
Now going back to the comment Imade before, you still need to
read your note. Right. You know?So you read it. You say, okay.
Yep. That makes sense. Or wait.It didn't it left out something
(09:10):
I think is important, and youcan then just tell it to put it
back in. It's really very, verysimple in that regard.
But what it does do at its corethough, is it turns
documentation from being whathas traditionally been an after
event. Do all of the work andnow write down everything you
did, to being a byproduct of thework you're already doing. So
that in itself saves time. Andat least, you know, we've seen
(09:37):
with this, you know, both in theliterature and in direct
conversations with itsproviders, is it also creates in
a lot of cases, a more accuratenote. Obviously in the course of
a medical visit, you're talkingto the patient, thinking about
things, and the patient may saysomething you miss.
It's just part of aconversation. Well, I've had
(10:00):
conversations with physiciansand others when they say, Well,
wait a minute, this showed up inthe note. I don't remember that
coming up. We go back, we lookat the transcript, and sure
enough, it's there. And theyfeel like, wow, I I missed that.
You know, missed that comment.So I think that's important. One
one provider in particular saidto me, he said, I'm getting to
(10:21):
spend more focus on my patient.It's taking me less time, and
it's generating a better note.Truthfully, I take any one of
those three outcomes, let aloneall three.
Daniel Williams (10:32):
I would too. I wish I spent twenty five years
as a reporter, like, jottingdown notes or recording it and
having to go back and transcribeit myself. I'd spend the whole
afternoon just typing up theinterview, and now you can just
get the audio, drop it into oneof the different platforms,
whatever it might be. And thenin a minute or five minutes or
(10:53):
so, you have the transcription.Now you can really use your
Dr. Michael Blackman (10:56):
Yeah.
Daniel Williams (10:56):
Analytical skills to, decipher what's
right, what's wrong in there. SoI do wanna follow-up with you
one more question about theproduct itself. How does it work
in practice? Is it withinembedded in an app, or what what
is where is it located, and howis it used?
Dr. Michael Blackman (11:16):
Yeah. So the way really, it's embedded in
an app. Walk in, start start theapp, and then just ignore it.
Daniel Williams (11:24):
Okay.
Dr. Michael Blackman (11:24):
Have a have a conversation. It would be
usual conversation, usualinteraction with the patient.
And then when you're done, yousimply hit the stop button, it
generates the note, you have achance to review it, and then
you press another button and offit goes right into the
electronic health record. Now Ithink, you know, one of the
things that is different aboutthis a little bit, is that this
(11:50):
may sound sort of obvious, butit can only record things in the
note that the system hears. So,you know, the way what one
chooses to vocalize during thecourse of the visit has to
change a little bit if you wantthat to show up in your note.
You know, for example, you know,typically, as you're doing the
physical exam, you'll you don'tnecessarily vocalize all of
(12:12):
those findings. Right. You wouldjust eventually write them down.
But if you want the system tocapture it, you'd have to say
things like, yep, what was yourheart exam? What was your lung
exam?
What are your other findings?Now, personally, I think there's
some benefit from that just toconveying that information to
the patient, but it's it's a,you know, necessary step if you
(12:33):
wanted to do that. If you don'twant it to and you wanna put it
in later, that's totally up tothe user.
Daniel Williams (12:38):
And that's a great point that it actually
hearing you say that, it reallyincreases that patient
engagement in the way thatyou're being very transparent.
There are some things you mightjust jot down. Now you're
verbally saying it. They'rehearing it. They might even have
a well, is that a good readingor a bad reading?
Tell me tell me more about that.So, I think that there's a real
(13:02):
benefit in actually verbalizingwhat is being done. So Mhmm. Now
with your team, y'all sharedsome metrics with me. I wanna
make sure I get these right.
You shared metrics like 90%report less time pressure and
81% patient satisfaction. I knowwhat the patient satisfaction
is. That report less time whatis time pressure? What are we
(13:26):
talking about there?
Dr. Michael Blackman (13:27):
Yeah. Time pressure sort of goes back to
burnout and back to that pajamatime. You know, If you think
about the day of a typicalprimary care physician, you have
a series of appointments back toback, morning session, afternoon
session. And yes, it obviouslyvaries by practice and other
things. But typically we'retalking about fifteen minute
(13:50):
appointments, sometimes 30s forphysicals, maybe a little less.
So you People want to stay ontime. You know? Mhmm. People
we've all been to the doctor'soffice, myself included, where
you're sitting there waiting,going, you know, my appointment
was an hour ago. Why am I stillsitting here?
Daniel Williams (14:09):
Right.
Dr. Michael Blackman (14:11):
And, you know, so having people giving
the ability to sort of movethrough their day a little more
efficiently, that's that timepressure. Now Okay. Does that
mean everybody's gonna be out oftime all day long? No. You know?
And I'll speak speak strictlyfor myself. You know, always
wanted to make sure I gaveeveryone the time they needed.
(14:32):
And if that meant running alittle behind and giving someone
more time, that's what I alwaysdid. And people, you know, who
were late when I was runninglate, if they, you know, were
concerned about that, and Isaid, listen. I spent time with
someone.
If you needed it or your familymember needed, I'd spend time
with you. That usually solvedthe conversation pretty quickly.
Daniel Williams (14:50):
Right. The other statistic is eighty one
percent patient satisfaction.It's understandable on the
surface, but do you have anyexamples of what are what's the
feedback you're getting? Whatspecifically are the patients
seeing, experiencing that theygo, this is a better patient
experience for me.
Dr. Michael Blackman (15:09):
This is some of information we're
getting back, you eitheranecdotally or from from
surveys, you know, we we putthat afterwards. And it goes
back to some of the things wewere talking about a second ago,
that sort of greater awarenessof the patient about what's
going on and their involvementand a better chance to ask
questions.
Daniel Williams (15:25):
Okay. I'm looking at some other notes I
have here. We talked a lot aboutthat fear of AI and automation
replacing jobs. We talked aboutit already, but what I would
like to talk about now is how dohow do you recommend practices
reframe that to their staff sothere's not that fear, oh my
(15:45):
gosh. We've got this the machinecoming in, and now I'm gonna not
have a job anymore.
How are you reframing that? Whatis a guideline or best practice
to use so it can be used as anupsell to the staff that, hey.
This is gonna help us all do ourjobs better.
Dr. Michael Blackman (16:02):
I think my first question to people is
pretty much, what are you notspending time on that you would
like to?
Daniel Williams (16:08):
Okay.
Dr. Michael Blackman (16:09):
What are you not doing that you think
would help, either help thepractice or help patients, or
were you, yo, you're rushed? Toa person, everyone has an answer
to that question. Oh yeah, no.Then the other piece is, what
are you doing that you don'tthink adds value? So we start
(16:30):
looking at those two pieces andokay, what are the things you're
doing that are necessary, butyou don't think adds value or
where it's not value from you,it becomes more rogue?
Well, where can we automatethose as best we can, And then
therefore free you up to spendmore time on things that matter.
Everything matters, but an extraconversation with a patient, an
(16:54):
extra two minutes, whatever itmay be, you know, improving that
human interaction Mhmm. And nottaking away from it.
Daniel Williams (17:04):
With that said, is there data? Do y'all have
data yet either internally orthere are other studies out
there? You're already talkingabout, well, we're able to
reduce some of that pajama time.What about the time spent in
front of the patient? Have younoticed is there is it allowing
for more time to be on thatspecifically on the patient
(17:25):
visit, or is there any data onthat yet?
Dr. Michael Blackman (17:27):
You know, we don't have I haven't seen
specific data on that yet, but Imean, it's but I do think it's a
function of not only it's notjust the amount of time
Daniel Williams (17:37):
Right.
Dr. Michael Blackman (17:37):
But it's the quality of the time. Yeah.
You know, that if you can sitand have that conversation and,
you know, really focus on thepatient, and especially as we
get, you know, further along, aswe continue to use AI to help,
you know, bring otherinformation to the fore and
present things to people,they'll spend less time digging,
you know, quote, unquote,digging through the chart.
Daniel Williams (17:59):
Right. As soon as that those words came out of
my mouth, I went, you know,quantity may not be the best
thing. It could be quality, andit may be when how do we define
that quality then? Is it havingthe clinicians better informed?
They're not having to digthrough a lot of stuff, but it's
been very because I know when Iwork with AI, I can have just a
(18:19):
couple of bullet points that aresummarized, and I now better
understand this patient orwhatever it is we're doing.
Is that how you're definingquality, or what are you looking
at there?
Dr. Michael Blackman (18:29):
I think that's a that's a big piece of
it. The other is adding, youknow, beyond the the
summarization capabilities and,you know, search capabilities as
well, to make it easy to findthe information. Right.
Certainly if you have acomplicated patient who wanna
see you for years, there's atremendous amount of data there.
The best sort of corollary I canuse here is to think about the
(18:53):
old days before electronicrecords.
So you had something like that,you might have five volumes of
thick chart, You'd stack up on adesk. Well, you didn't read the
whole thing. Nobody did. You hadit for reference to find you
know, go searching forsomething. Well, manually
searching for something in fivevolumes of paper chart is hard,
(19:15):
and that assumes it was filedcorrectly.
Yeah. But electronically, westart having greater capability
of pulling things out or beingable to sort of you asked about
this, Perhaps you're interestedin this and bring and just bring
it to the fore without youasking for it.
Daniel Williams (19:33):
Right. That's a really good point. Couple of
final questions then before wesign off. I really wanna ask
you. I know you're not, yeah,I'll put the quotes again, tech
guy, but you are a leader inhealth care.
And so you're understanding thebigger picture of things. Are
there some other trends orthere's some other things
happening in health IT, healthcare IT right now in addition to
(19:57):
AI that you might wanna sharewith our listeners?
Dr. Michael Blackman (20:00):
Yeah. I think there's a lot going on, as
there always is. I think thereare probably three things that I
would sort of focus on. One isrelated to AI. And so how do we
continue to improve clinicaldecision support?
Really leverage the informationthat's out there. You know,
moving beyond, you know, simplealgorithms, but more complex
(20:21):
models to say, hey. Did youthink about this? And, again,
not decision making, butsupport. Because if you have a
constellation of symptoms, maybeto me, I think of five things in
the differential diagnosis orthree things.
Well, maybe there should havebeen six or seven. And it, you
know, hey, give me a fullerdifferential. I may then dismiss
(20:41):
some of them or not, or say, No,so I should look into that
further. Why did that show upthere? Especially in complicated
cases.
So I think that's one. Obviouslythere's risk in all of this. You
gotta watch for bias in thealgorithms and things like that.
You wanna be sure that we'rewithin regulatory compliance and
all of those kinds of funthings. But I think there are
(21:02):
real advantages.
Second, continued increases invirtual care, remote monitoring
and things like that. Thingsthat are real shift in our
traditional healthcare model, isin The US traditionally we've
had sick insurance, we treatpeople when they're ill. How do
(21:22):
we shift more to keeping peoplehealthy and doing things to keep
them out of the hospital? That'sbetter. Some hospital
administrators might not agreewith that statement from a
financial point of view.
But from a health standpoint,we're much better off if we can
do more of that. And thenfinally, again, somebody's been
talked about for a long time isinteroperability. How do we
(21:43):
continue to share data andinformation across practices in
different places and TEFCA andsome of the other regulatory
structures are really startingto come to the fore. We say
that, you know, every year orso, but I think we may be
finally getting close.
Daniel Williams (22:02):
Yeah. All of those are some we could just
break off and start talkingabout each one of those and have
a full episode. But the one thatreally struck me was the virtual
care and how much that is gonnabe part of our future because
you and I are in different partsof the country talking now. And
we're gonna broadcast this, andit's gonna be published, and
(22:23):
people are gonna see it andlisten to it. And so when it's
appropriate, should, you know,adopt that as well wherever it
can.
Dr. Michael Blackman (22:33):
Yeah. I I think one of the things that's
important there is for people tokeep in mind that there are
plenty of things that can bedone remotely. And there are
plenty of things that can't.Right. And that, you know, an
expectation of, well, they sawme remotely the last time I
should be able to do thisremotely true, may or may not be
true.
And that, you know, we need touse in whether it's AI decision
(22:56):
support, remote monitoring,telehealth, those two they're
they're simply tools. Mhmm. Andwe and the users of those tools
need to use them appropriately.
Daniel Williams (23:06):
I think I I need to do some study and just
see what the adoption rate is ofmedical practices, MGMA members
who have used AI tools. Withouthaving that information right in
front of me, what I would wannaask you here as a final
question, we're here talkingabout Greenway Clinical Assist.
(23:27):
There are other AI tools outthere, and it could be
overwhelming to someone to go,okay. We need to get on this
ship now so we're not leftbehind. But at the same time, if
they're trying to makedecisions, what should they what
are the questions they should beasking?
What should they be looking forin AI tools to assist them?
Dr. Michael Blackman (23:47):
I think you sort of start back and say
what problem you're trying tosolve.
Daniel Williams (23:50):
Okay.
Dr. Michael Blackman (23:51):
You know, always a a great place to start.
You know, what are the concernsyou have for your practice? What
are the things you would wannado that you can't that you think
you can't do today? And whatoutcomes are you looking for?
The next piece is that, right, ahodgepodge of tools isn't
necessarily helpful.
How do those tools potentiallywork together? How do you make
(24:12):
sure it all works together as acore system? And then equally,
look at what you currently have.It's quite possible that what
you currently have has morecapability than you realize, or
than one realizes, and you wannamake sure you're getting good
value from all of those thingsas you're doing it. I think
about myself and use ofsomething like Microsoft Word.
(24:33):
Don't know what percentage offeatures in Microsoft Word I
actually use. All I can tell youis that it's small. It has far
more capability than I takeadvantage of. And that's often
true for the tools that peopleput into their practices. And
they look for a point solutionwhen their core solution already
does it.
Daniel Williams (24:52):
Great point. So before we before we leave then,
are there if people wanna get intouch with you or the Greenway
team, how would they do that?What are any resources that we
can put in the episode shownotes?
Dr. Michael Blackman (25:04):
Yeah. So, obviously, you can you know, it
was on my website, which isgreenwayhealth.com. Okay. You
know, always send me an email.It's very simple.
It'sMichael.Blackman@GreenwayHealth.com.
I'll respond or get it to theright place. And there are lots
of we're thinking aboutresources about the advent of
(25:25):
AI, the use of AI in healthcare.I think there are lots of great
resources out there. A couplethat I particularly like is one
is the Stanford Center forBiomedical Informatics.
Duke Health also has Duke AI,which I think is pretty good.
And then for those interested,sort of a a podcast, there's one
on it's called creating newhealth care, which I'm very fond
(25:49):
of, hosted by doctor Zev Newers,who's done a lot of work in in
health care transformation overthe years.
Daniel Williams (25:55):
All right. Well, Doctor. Blackman, it is so
much fun to have you on the showyet again, and just connect with
you and hear what is going on atGreenway, and how you're
interacting with those practicesout there.
Dr. Michael Blackman (26:07):
Now we're looking forward to continuing to
make make them successful, tocreate healthier communities, by
empowering the patients.
Daniel Williams (26:15):
All right, well, everyone, we will put
those links and Doctor.Blackmon's email address in our
episode show notes. We're alsogonna create an article from
this conversation so you canaccess it in a lot of different
ways either through YouTube,Spotify, and the other podcast
platforms, or on the MGMA siteto read that article. So until
(26:38):
then, thank you all so much forbeing MGMA podcast listeners.
Well, hi, everyone. I'm Daniel Williams,
senior editor at MGMA and hostof the MGMA Podcast Network. We
are back today with another MGMAbusiness solutions podcast, and
we have a repeat guest, someonewho's been on our show numerous
times. That's doctor MichaelBlackman. He's chief medical
(00:23):
officer at Greenway Health, anddoctor Blackman is a primary
care physician and a health caretechnology leader.
Doctor Blackman, welcome back tothe show.
Dr. Michael Blackman (00:34):
Thanks. Pleasure to be here.
Daniel Williams (00:36):
I'm just so glad that we we enjoyed each
other's company enough, soyou're back on the show with us.
And for this episode, we'regonna talk a lot about AI
automation, how it's helpingprovider burnout, and helping
alleviate some of those painpoints in that regard. We're
(00:56):
also gonna be talking aboutGreenway Clinical Assist. We'll
probably define some of thetopics and terms that we're
gonna be talking about. Butfirst, even though you've been
on the show numerous times, whatI wanted to do was just have you
share a little bit about yourbackground just in case
someone's never heard the showsthat you've been on.
(01:17):
So if you don't mind just givingus a little bit about that
background.
Dr. Michael Blackman (01:21):
Yeah. So, obviously, as you mentioned, I'm
I'm the chief medical officer atGreenway Health. I'm a primary
chair physician by training,trained in both internal
medicine and pediatrics. So thatsort of gives you, you know, my
my view of the world a littlebit. And despite working now on
the technology side for, dare Isay, you know, fifteen plus
years, first as the ChiefMedical Information Officer at a
(01:45):
health system and then movingover to the vendor side, I'm not
the technology guy.
I'm one who looks at it says,Okay, what can these tools do
for us? How can they makepeople's lives better? What the
technology is? Yes. It can beexciting and fun and all of
that, but that's traditionallynot where my focus is.
Daniel Williams (02:07):
Okay. And then for anybody who's listening,
these are our medical practiceleaders. Most will know Greenway
Health for anybody who doesn't.Just share a little bit about
Greenway Health and what yourrole is there.
Dr. Michael Blackman (02:19):
Yeah. So Greenway Health focuses on the
ambulatory space. We arestrictly in the ambulatory space
looking at providing, you know,a full set of solutions to
ambulatory practices to helpthem succeed.
Daniel Williams (02:31):
You and I and your team shared some
information back and forth so wewould really be able to zero in
on a particular topic to talkabout. So even though, as you
said, you're not maybe, writingcode or anything of that nature,
that's not your background. Butwhat I have learned from talking
to your team, Greenway reallytakes a team approach to health
(02:54):
care technology. Talk a littlebit because you are a leader. So
you might not be a, you know,quote, tech guy, but you are a
leader.
And so you understand howimportant it is to have that
team based approach. Talk aboutthat and how Greenway can help
medical practices really kind ofembrace that team approach.
Dr. Michael Blackman (03:17):
Yeah. No. And so we take a team approach,
not only in the work we dowithin Greenway, it takes a
village. We also want to supportthe team that it takes to run a
practice. There is no person,whether that be the person at
the front desk, a medicalassistant, a nurse, a physician,
an administrator, anyone else,can run a medical practice on
(03:40):
their own and provide good careon their It requires that team
approach and so as we buildsolutions, we wanna be certain
that we're supporting thatentire team, that we're giving
people the ability to do thework they do best, to do the
most important thing, which issupport patients.
Daniel Williams (03:59):
Right. Well, thank you for sharing that. So
that topic that we're reallygonna zero in on today is about
AI and burnout. I'm just I'msitting with that for a second
because that is the topic thatwe we hear out there. Wow.
We've got AI going on. We've gotburnout, but we're really trying
(04:22):
to look at how we can mesh thosetogether, how AI can alleviate
some of those incredible painpoints that our clinicians and
their support team is goingthrough. Talk about that a
little bit.
Dr. Michael Blackman (04:33):
We've talked about burnout for a a
long time. Yeah. And we peoplehave done different things and
different approach to say, howcan you eliminate burnout? You
often hear about, you know, callit different things, but pajama
time. People taking work homehome with them in the evening.
Certainly, when I was in fulltime practice, I don't think we
called it pajama time then, butI certainly did. Didn't call it
(04:56):
that, but certainly broughtstuff home. Sure. You know, you
know, after I put my kids tobed, you can often find me
sitting on the couch callingpatients, and patients often be
surprised. They get a call fromme at, you know, eight or 09:00
at night.
But that's when I had the timeto do it, and it was important
to catch up with them. You know,AI and and people use the term
very broadly, it can mean a lotof different things.
Daniel Williams (05:18):
Right.
Dr. Michael Blackman (05:19):
But I think it comes down to what are
the available tools that canreally help? Think about it as
an assistant. It's not areplacement, but an assistant.
And there are some things thatcan replace in some tasks. Some
tasks, it's an additional speed.
(05:39):
I use AI tools a lot myself fordoing different things. Even for
something as simple as if I'mthinking about creating a
presentation, I could sit andwrite an initial draft and it
might take me a while. I canequally take AI and say, hey,
what are the seven things or 10things you would talk about on
this topic?
Daniel Williams (05:58):
Right.
Dr. Michael Blackman (05:58):
And then edit it from there. I think the
point of it being an assistantis critical, especially if we
get to other pieces like usingAI for clinical decision
support. Notice I said thatsupport and not decision making,
this still requires humanoversight and paying attention
to what you're looking at. Youknow? AI can still hallucinate
(06:20):
in certain situations, so yougotta make sure what's what's
being presented is real andmakes sense.
Daniel Williams (06:25):
You make great points there, and we've talked
about that before on this show.And, obviously, anyone who's
interacted with, the differentAI tools that are out there,
they'll be humming along, andthen all of a sudden, there's
something just, as you said, thehallucination, the just getting
things completely wrong. Or ifyou are looking at, as you were
(06:49):
saying, making a presentation,it's not the right tone. You
know? It's not really hittingthe way you wanna address it.
So I think what's so important,and this is the point we make a
lot here, at least in this dayand age, We're not replacing
jobs per se, but what we'redoing is really giving us,
whether it's you, me,physicians, clinicians, anybody
else out there, some reallyimportant tools. And then we
(07:11):
have to use our wisdom, ourknowledge, our education base.
And it sounds like you've reallydealt with that as well.
Dr. Michael Blackman (07:19):
Yeah. You know, it often comes up. People
say, well, is it gonna replacepeople? It's gonna cause people
to do different things. And Idon't know where this quote
originated.
It it's not mine, but I'm gonnashare it. You know, people talk,
oh, will AI replace doctors? Andthe short answer to that is no.
But likely, doctors who use AImay replace those who don't.
Daniel Williams (07:42):
I love that quote. I mean, not not for what
it means for Vivo's job, butthat that's the reality that
we're in. And I think the peoplewho really are making that
adoption to using the tools andusing them wisely are gonna be
ahead of the ones who aren't. Imean, that's just the clear way
to say it. So let's talk about avery specific AI tool.
(08:02):
That's the one that Greenway isworking with. It's Greenway
Clinical Assist. Talk about thatbecause in the name itself, it's
not Greenway Clinical Replace.It's Greenway Clinical Assist.
Talk about a little bit aboutwhat you see in its usage as a
tool and the way that you'reseeing administrators and
practice leaders using it?
Dr. Michael Blackman (08:24):
So our vision for Greenway Clinical
Assist is just that. It's anassistant that helps you, you
know, across the board as you'reworking your way through any
variety of tasks in thepractice. The place that it's
starting is assisting withdocumentation. At its core, it
starts with being an ambientdocumentation solution. So as
you're having a conversationwith the patient, this system
(08:48):
listens to the conversation andthen writes a note based on that
conversation, leaving in, youknow, the the pertinent medical
parts and stripping out otherpieces that it doesn't deem are
pertinent.
Now going back to the comment Imade before, you still need to
read your note. Right. You know?So you read it. You say, okay.
Yep. That makes sense. Or wait.It didn't it left out something
(09:10):
I think is important, and youcan then just tell it to put it
back in. It's really very, verysimple in that regard.
But what it does do at its corethough, is it turns
documentation from being whathas traditionally been an after
event. Do all of the work andnow write down everything you
did, to being a byproduct of thework you're already doing. So
that in itself saves time. Andat least, you know, we've seen
(09:37):
with this, you know, both in theliterature and in direct
conversations with itsproviders, is it also creates in
a lot of cases, a more accuratenote. Obviously in the course of
a medical visit, you're talkingto the patient, thinking about
things, and the patient may saysomething you miss.
It's just part of aconversation. Well, I've had
(10:00):
conversations with physiciansand others when they say, Well,
wait a minute, this showed up inthe note. I don't remember that
coming up. We go back, we lookat the transcript, and sure
enough, it's there. And theyfeel like, wow, I I missed that.
You know, missed that comment.So I think that's important. One
one provider in particular saidto me, he said, I'm getting to
(10:21):
spend more focus on my patient.It's taking me less time, and
it's generating a better note.Truthfully, I take any one of
those three outcomes, let aloneall three.
Daniel Williams (10:32):
I would too. I wish I spent twenty five years
as a reporter, like, jottingdown notes or recording it and
having to go back and transcribeit myself. I'd spend the whole
afternoon just typing up theinterview, and now you can just
get the audio, drop it into oneof the different platforms,
whatever it might be. And thenin a minute or five minutes or
(10:53):
so, you have the transcription.Now you can really use your
Dr. Michael Blackman (10:56):
Yeah.
Daniel Williams (10:56):
Analytical skills to, decipher what's
right, what's wrong in there. SoI do wanna follow-up with you
one more question about theproduct itself. How does it work
in practice? Is it withinembedded in an app, or what what
is where is it located, and howis it used?
Dr. Michael Blackman (11:16):
Yeah. So the way really, it's embedded in
an app. Walk in, start start theapp, and then just ignore it.
Daniel Williams (11:24):
Okay.
Dr. Michael Blackman (11:24):
Have a have a conversation. It would be
usual conversation, usualinteraction with the patient.
And then when you're done, yousimply hit the stop button, it
generates the note, you have achance to review it, and then
you press another button and offit goes right into the
electronic health record. Now Ithink, you know, one of the
things that is different aboutthis a little bit, is that this
(11:50):
may sound sort of obvious, butit can only record things in the
note that the system hears. So,you know, the way what one
chooses to vocalize during thecourse of the visit has to
change a little bit if you wantthat to show up in your note.
You know, for example, you know,typically, as you're doing the
physical exam, you'll you don'tnecessarily vocalize all of
(12:12):
those findings. Right. You wouldjust eventually write them down.
But if you want the system tocapture it, you'd have to say
things like, yep, what was yourheart exam? What was your lung
exam?
What are your other findings?Now, personally, I think there's
some benefit from that just toconveying that information to
the patient, but it's it's a,you know, necessary step if you
(12:33):
wanted to do that. If you don'twant it to and you wanna put it
in later, that's totally up tothe user.
Daniel Williams (12:38):
And that's a great point that it actually
hearing you say that, it reallyincreases that patient
engagement in the way thatyou're being very transparent.
There are some things you mightjust jot down. Now you're
verbally saying it. They'rehearing it. They might even have
a well, is that a good readingor a bad reading?
Tell me tell me more about that.So, I think that there's a real
(13:02):
benefit in actually verbalizingwhat is being done. So Mhmm. Now
with your team, y'all sharedsome metrics with me. I wanna
make sure I get these right.
You shared metrics like 90%report less time pressure and
81% patient satisfaction. I knowwhat the patient satisfaction
is. That report less time whatis time pressure? What are we
(13:26):
talking about there?
Dr. Michael Blackman (13:27):
Yeah. Time pressure sort of goes back to
burnout and back to that pajamatime. You know, If you think
about the day of a typicalprimary care physician, you have
a series of appointments back toback, morning session, afternoon
session. And yes, it obviouslyvaries by practice and other
things. But typically we'retalking about fifteen minute
(13:50):
appointments, sometimes 30s forphysicals, maybe a little less.
So you People want to stay ontime. You know? Mhmm. People
we've all been to the doctor'soffice, myself included, where
you're sitting there waiting,going, you know, my appointment
was an hour ago. Why am I stillsitting here?
Daniel Williams (14:09):
Right.
Dr. Michael Blackman (14:11):
And, you know, so having people giving
the ability to sort of movethrough their day a little more
efficiently, that's that timepressure. Now Okay. Does that
mean everybody's gonna be out oftime all day long? No. You know?
And I'll speak speak strictlyfor myself. You know, always
wanted to make sure I gaveeveryone the time they needed.
(14:32):
And if that meant running alittle behind and giving someone
more time, that's what I alwaysdid. And people, you know, who
were late when I was runninglate, if they, you know, were
concerned about that, and Isaid, listen. I spent time with
someone.
If you needed it or your familymember needed, I'd spend time
with you. That usually solvedthe conversation pretty quickly.
Daniel Williams (14:50):
Right. The other statistic is eighty one
percent patient satisfaction.It's understandable on the
surface, but do you have anyexamples of what are what's the
feedback you're getting? Whatspecifically are the patients
seeing, experiencing that theygo, this is a better patient
experience for me.
Dr. Michael Blackman (15:09):
This is some of information we're
getting back, you eitheranecdotally or from from
surveys, you know, we we putthat afterwards. And it goes
back to some of the things wewere talking about a second ago,
that sort of greater awarenessof the patient about what's
going on and their involvementand a better chance to ask
questions.
Daniel Williams (15:25):
Okay. I'm looking at some other notes I
have here. We talked a lot aboutthat fear of AI and automation
replacing jobs. We talked aboutit already, but what I would
like to talk about now is how dohow do you recommend practices
reframe that to their staff sothere's not that fear, oh my
(15:45):
gosh. We've got this the machinecoming in, and now I'm gonna not
have a job anymore.
How are you reframing that? Whatis a guideline or best practice
to use so it can be used as anupsell to the staff that, hey.
This is gonna help us all do ourjobs better.
Dr. Michael Blackman (16:02):
I think my first question to people is
pretty much, what are you notspending time on that you would
like to?
Daniel Williams (16:08):
Okay.
Dr. Michael Blackman (16:09):
What are you not doing that you think
would help, either help thepractice or help patients, or
were you, yo, you're rushed? Toa person, everyone has an answer
to that question. Oh yeah, no.Then the other piece is, what
are you doing that you don'tthink adds value? So we start
(16:30):
looking at those two pieces andokay, what are the things you're
doing that are necessary, butyou don't think adds value or
where it's not value from you,it becomes more rogue?
Well, where can we automatethose as best we can, And then
therefore free you up to spendmore time on things that matter.
Everything matters, but an extraconversation with a patient, an
(16:54):
extra two minutes, whatever itmay be, you know, improving that
human interaction Mhmm. And nottaking away from it.
Daniel Williams (17:04):
With that said, is there data? Do y'all have
data yet either internally orthere are other studies out
there? You're already talkingabout, well, we're able to
reduce some of that pajama time.What about the time spent in
front of the patient? Have younoticed is there is it allowing
for more time to be on thatspecifically on the patient
(17:25):
visit, or is there any data onthat yet?
Dr. Michael Blackman (17:27):
You know, we don't have I haven't seen
specific data on that yet, but Imean, it's but I do think it's a
function of not only it's notjust the amount of time
Daniel Williams (17:37):
Right.
Dr. Michael Blackman (17:37):
But it's the quality of the time. Yeah.
You know, that if you can sitand have that conversation and,
you know, really focus on thepatient, and especially as we
get, you know, further along, aswe continue to use AI to help,
you know, bring otherinformation to the fore and
present things to people,they'll spend less time digging,
you know, quote, unquote,digging through the chart.
Daniel Williams (17:59):
Right. As soon as that those words came out of
my mouth, I went, you know,quantity may not be the best
thing. It could be quality, andit may be when how do we define
that quality then? Is it havingthe clinicians better informed?
They're not having to digthrough a lot of stuff, but it's
been very because I know when Iwork with AI, I can have just a
(18:19):
couple of bullet points that aresummarized, and I now better
understand this patient orwhatever it is we're doing.
Is that how you're definingquality, or what are you looking
at there?
Dr. Michael Blackman (18:29):
I think that's a that's a big piece of
it. The other is adding, youknow, beyond the the
summarization capabilities and,you know, search capabilities as
well, to make it easy to findthe information. Right.
Certainly if you have acomplicated patient who wanna
see you for years, there's atremendous amount of data there.
The best sort of corollary I canuse here is to think about the
(18:53):
old days before electronicrecords.
So you had something like that,you might have five volumes of
thick chart, You'd stack up on adesk. Well, you didn't read the
whole thing. Nobody did. You hadit for reference to find you
know, go searching forsomething. Well, manually
searching for something in fivevolumes of paper chart is hard,
(19:15):
and that assumes it was filedcorrectly.
Yeah. But electronically, westart having greater capability
of pulling things out or beingable to sort of you asked about
this, Perhaps you're interestedin this and bring and just bring
it to the fore without youasking for it.
Daniel Williams (19:33):
Right. That's a really good point. Couple of
final questions then before wesign off. I really wanna ask
you. I know you're not, yeah,I'll put the quotes again, tech
guy, but you are a leader inhealth care.
And so you're understanding thebigger picture of things. Are
there some other trends orthere's some other things
happening in health IT, healthcare IT right now in addition to
(19:57):
AI that you might wanna sharewith our listeners?
Dr. Michael Blackman (20:00):
Yeah. I think there's a lot going on, as
there always is. I think thereare probably three things that I
would sort of focus on. One isrelated to AI. And so how do we
continue to improve clinicaldecision support?
Really leverage the informationthat's out there. You know,
moving beyond, you know, simplealgorithms, but more complex
(20:21):
models to say, hey. Did youthink about this? And, again,
not decision making, butsupport. Because if you have a
constellation of symptoms, maybeto me, I think of five things in
the differential diagnosis orthree things.
Well, maybe there should havebeen six or seven. And it, you
know, hey, give me a fullerdifferential. I may then dismiss
(20:41):
some of them or not, or say, No,so I should look into that
further. Why did that show upthere? Especially in complicated
cases.
So I think that's one. Obviouslythere's risk in all of this. You
gotta watch for bias in thealgorithms and things like that.
You wanna be sure that we'rewithin regulatory compliance and
all of those kinds of funthings. But I think there are
(21:02):
real advantages.
Second, continued increases invirtual care, remote monitoring
and things like that. Thingsthat are real shift in our
traditional healthcare model, isin The US traditionally we've
had sick insurance, we treatpeople when they're ill. How do
(21:22):
we shift more to keeping peoplehealthy and doing things to keep
them out of the hospital? That'sbetter. Some hospital
administrators might not agreewith that statement from a
financial point of view.
But from a health standpoint,we're much better off if we can
do more of that. And thenfinally, again, somebody's been
talked about for a long time isinteroperability. How do we
(21:43):
continue to share data andinformation across practices in
different places and TEFCA andsome of the other regulatory
structures are really startingto come to the fore. We say
that, you know, every year orso, but I think we may be
finally getting close.
Daniel Williams (22:02):
Yeah. All of those are some we could just
break off and start talkingabout each one of those and have
a full episode. But the one thatreally struck me was the virtual
care and how much that is gonnabe part of our future because
you and I are in different partsof the country talking now. And
we're gonna broadcast this, andit's gonna be published, and
(22:23):
people are gonna see it andlisten to it. And so when it's
appropriate, should, you know,adopt that as well wherever it
can.
Dr. Michael Blackman (22:33):
Yeah. I I think one of the things that's
important there is for people tokeep in mind that there are
plenty of things that can bedone remotely. And there are
plenty of things that can't.Right. And that, you know, an
expectation of, well, they sawme remotely the last time I
should be able to do thisremotely true, may or may not be
true.
And that, you know, we need touse in whether it's AI decision
(22:56):
support, remote monitoring,telehealth, those two they're
they're simply tools. Mhmm. Andwe and the users of those tools
need to use them appropriately.
Daniel Williams (23:06):
I think I I need to do some study and just
see what the adoption rate is ofmedical practices, MGMA members
who have used AI tools. Withouthaving that information right in
front of me, what I would wannaask you here as a final
question, we're here talkingabout Greenway Clinical Assist.
(23:27):
There are other AI tools outthere, and it could be
overwhelming to someone to go,okay. We need to get on this
ship now so we're not leftbehind. But at the same time, if
they're trying to makedecisions, what should they what
are the questions they should beasking?
What should they be looking forin AI tools to assist them?
Dr. Michael Blackman (23:47):
I think you sort of start back and say
what problem you're trying tosolve.
Daniel Williams (23:50):
Okay.
Dr. Michael Blackman (23:51):
You know, always a a great place to start.
You know, what are the concernsyou have for your practice? What
are the things you would wannado that you can't that you think
you can't do today? And whatoutcomes are you looking for?
The next piece is that, right, ahodgepodge of tools isn't
necessarily helpful.
How do those tools potentiallywork together? How do you make
(24:12):
sure it all works together as acore system? And then equally,
look at what you currently have.It's quite possible that what
you currently have has morecapability than you realize, or
than one realizes, and you wannamake sure you're getting good
value from all of those thingsas you're doing it. I think
about myself and use ofsomething like Microsoft Word.
(24:33):
Don't know what percentage offeatures in Microsoft Word I
actually use. All I can tell youis that it's small. It has far
more capability than I takeadvantage of. And that's often
true for the tools that peopleput into their practices. And
they look for a point solutionwhen their core solution already
does it.
Daniel Williams (24:52):
Great point. So before we before we leave then,
are there if people wanna get intouch with you or the Greenway
team, how would they do that?What are any resources that we
can put in the episode shownotes?
Dr. Michael Blackman (25:04):
Yeah. So, obviously, you can you know, it
was on my website, which isgreenwayhealth.com. Okay. You
know, always send me an email.It's very simple.
It'sMichael.Blackman@GreenwayHealth.com.
I'll respond or get it to theright place. And there are lots
of we're thinking aboutresources about the advent of
(25:25):
AI, the use of AI in healthcare.I think there are lots of great
resources out there. A couplethat I particularly like is one
is the Stanford Center forBiomedical Informatics.
Duke Health also has Duke AI,which I think is pretty good.
And then for those interested,sort of a a podcast, there's one
on it's called creating newhealth care, which I'm very fond
(25:49):
of, hosted by doctor Zev Newers,who's done a lot of work in in
health care transformation overthe years.
Daniel Williams (25:55):
All right. Well, Doctor. Blackman, it is so
much fun to have you on the showyet again, and just connect with
you and hear what is going on atGreenway, and how you're
interacting with those practicesout there.
Dr. Michael Blackman (26:07):
Now we're looking forward to continuing to
make make them successful, tocreate healthier communities, by
empowering the patients.
Daniel Williams (26:15):
All right, well, everyone, we will put
those links and Doctor.Blackmon's email address in our
episode show notes. We're alsogonna create an article from
this conversation so you canaccess it in a lot of different
ways either through YouTube,Spotify, and the other podcast
platforms, or on the MGMA siteto read that article. So until
(26:38):
then, thank you all so much forbeing MGMA podcast listeners.
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