Episode 727: The Power & Spirit of Camp David, with Charles Ferguson

Take a break from the heat today to discuss some of the hidden history, and importance, of the Presidential retreat at Camp David with the author of the book, Presidential Seclusion: The Power of Camp David, Charles Ferguson.

After graduating from Georgia Tech and earning his commission, Charles Ferguson served for 11 years in the Submarine force onboard the USS Louisville and as Weapons Officer onboard USS Buffalo with a shore duty at Nuclear Power School in between. He switched to the IRR as Chaplain Candidate while attending seminary at Duke Divinity School and was recommissioned as an Active Duty Chaplain in 2010. As a chaplain he has served with both Navy and Marine Corps commands to include three and a half years as the Chaplain and Historian at Camp David.

Showlink

• Presidential Seclusion: The Power of Camp David

Summary

This conversation explores the historical significance and operational dynamics of the Presidential retreat of Camp David. The discussion highlights its origins, the Navy's role in its management, and the unique environment it provides for presidents to make critical decisions. The conversation also delves into the architectural design that facilitates diplomacy, notable guests who have visited, and the personal touches each president has added to the retreat. Additionally, the role of the chaplain and the supportive relationship with the local community are examined, emphasizing the importance of solitude for leaders in high-pressure positions.

Chapters

00:00: Introduction to Camp David's Significance
05:35: The Navy's Role in Camp David's History
10:27: Becoming the Chaplain and Historian at Camp David
15:22: The Origins and Transformation of Camp David
20:38: The Impact of Camp David on Presidential Decisions
29:15: Notable Guests and Diplomatic Encounters at Camp David
30:53: Architectural Diplomacy at Camp David
34:20: Presidential Modifications and Personal Touches
38:04: The Origin of Camp David's Name
40:58: Management and Operations at Camp David
43:13: The Role of the Chaplain
45:25: The Solitude of Leadership
49:32: Community Interactions and Local Support
53:22: Memorable Moments and Staff Contributions
58:14: The Importance of Setting Conditions for Peace
01:00: Future Projects and Closing Thoughts

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Welcome to mid Rats with sal from Commander Salamander, an
Eagle one from Eagle Speak at Seer Shore, your home
version of National security issues and all things maritime, and
welcome board everybody. Glad to have you with us today.
So if you are with our esteemed cohort, that's with
us live. I'd like to do the usual alter call.
If you are so inclined, go ahead and find the

(00:51):
chat room strolling over there and jump right in. That's
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(01:14):
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have an opportunity to listen to us. And with that said,
let's go ahead and dive into today's show. And until

(01:36):
I read our guest book presidential seclusion. The power of
Camp David. You go find the link on the show page.
As the professionals like to say, I really didn't realize
the deep roots with the Navy and the Marine Corps
that we have at that rural presidential retreat that has
been part of our history. You hear it on a

(01:57):
regular basis, but also the unique place it is for
our leaders and for our nation, the things that have
taken there, and the catalyst that it's created for a
lot of the events that you hear happen. There is
a connection back to Camp David, and we're going to
dive into some of those details today with the author
of the book, Charles Ferguson, who after serving eleven years

(02:19):
in the Submarine Force, he headed off to seminary at
Duke University Divinity School and was recommissioned as an active
duty chapelain in twenty ten. As a chaplain, he's served
both Navy and Marine Corps commands, including three and a
half years as the chaplain and historian at Camp David. Charles,
Welcome to mid Rats.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Well, I'm glad to be here, Thanks for having me,
and look forward to talking about this little known secluded
place that has affected world history for the last eighty years.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
That's one of the neat things it's like for people
of my age, really everybody's age. Camp David has just
always kind of been there. But it does actually have
a very nautical or gen story dated back to right
before World War Two with with President Roosevelt. And when
you when you hear Camp David, everybody should remember that

(03:10):
without the Kriegsmarine U boat force and the realities of
the Great Depression, this quote rush to rural retreat for
the president really never would have come into being. Talk
for a little bit about as you know, as the historian,
you you had all the access to the original documents,
uh the nature of the origin story of Camp David.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
Well.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
As a former submarine alster myself, uh I, that was
one of the biggest things that surprised me and that
I enjoyed researching, was how much that the the U
boats and what they were doing and attacking Allied shipping
right off the coast of the US. How that triggered
this whole chain of events that sent U President Roosevelt

(03:56):
FDR looking for a different retreat. And as I mentioned
in the book, I talk about how FDR boasts or
bragged that he had ten thousand naval books, you know,
and he was just a kind of a naval history nerd.
But as the war was going on, obviously after Pearl Harbor,
everybody's on edge and worried about the safety of the president.

(04:19):
And Roosevelt would love to just ride his yacht, the Potomac,
up and down the east coast and inside the Chesapeake Bay.
And after Pearl Harbor, you know, when we declared war
on Germany, all of a sudden, they just the German
U boats decided to start attacking Allied shipping up and

(04:40):
down the coast so close to it, off the coast
of New Jersey and Long Island, you could see burning
hulks of ships, and the Secret Service and FDR's advisors
were really worried about if they let him continue going
up and down the coast on the Potomac, a U
boat might get lucky and hit the Potomac, and then

(05:01):
the president of United States and middle of the war
is dead. And so they had to start looking for
an inland retreat for the president to go and relax
or get away from DC. They looked at Hyde Park,
but it was just too far with all the rationing
and the fuel. It just didn't make sense for the
president to flaunt and not follow the rationing mandates he

(05:23):
had put in for everyone else. They were looking at
places within a three hour drive. The advisors found a
bunch of different places, and in early April of nineteen
forty two, really right after the Doolittle raid, they found
this place. Or President Roosevelt decided on this place when

(05:44):
they took into him on the Catoctin Mountains. And it
was actually a camp that had been built as part
of the New Deal by the Works Progress Administration in
the Civilian Conservation Corps, and so it was also physically
or fiscally responsible to convert that camp. So everything just
kind of melded together with the New Deal, the submarine attacks,

(06:05):
and the war to establish this secluded retreat of private
retreat for the president.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
Yeah. Well, let's let's talk a little bit about how
the Navy connection came about. Why, as I told you
to our kind of our pre show, I always thought
this place was run by the Secret Service or the
FBI or somebody. Why does the Navy end up running
his place?

Speaker 2 (06:28):
The Navy ended up with the place just because it
was service of convenience. The presidential yacht, the Potomac, there
was already sailors working that. And then when they decided
to convert the recreation camp to presidential use, it was
just the smartest, easiest decision, because if the president's up

(06:51):
on the mountain, he couldn't be on the yacht. And
so just to have the sailors come up and support
the president every time middle of the wall, or you
don't want to have extra people doing things that make
it look like the president is you know, some kind
of king or you know, a special person.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
So they didn't want to.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Add more things, or add more people, or take people
away from the war effort.

Speaker 3 (07:17):
To facilitate this.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
And then, as I always liked to joke on the Tours,
possession is nine tenths of the law. Once the Navy
had a foothold there, they kept it, and the same
with the Marines. They were it was either the Marines
or the army that were going to guard the president
while he was in residence up there. For whatever reason,
the army kind of demurred and said no, thank you,

(07:42):
and the Marines said.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
Okay, we'll take it.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
And so marines from DC wou would travel up a
couple hours before the President showed up to secure the route,
make sure there were no bombs on the bridges or whatever,
and again possession nine tenths of the law. The Marine
Corps and the Navy were the original ones and never
let go of it.

Speaker 4 (08:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
I found that really humorous. And you know something that
all Navy and Marine Corps people should be proud of
is there was an opportunity and we stepped into it
and we kind of made in many ways a flavor
on our own. Now, for those that have read Fdr.
He as a former under secretary of the Navy, he
always was famously a Navy man. It may be just

(08:28):
an old wives tale or whatever. I read years ago
that one time earlier owned in the war that the
one of the army generals or the Secretary of War,
one of the two had to remind the president he
kept referring to the Navy as we and us as
the Army is them, that he shouldn't do that. So
he had a natural bias for the Navy. But there's

(08:49):
an infusion there, and you know you mentioned how the
Army kind of demurred and fade away. The Marine stayed
right there. I also found it interesting that another you
know you can't you can't buy PR like this is
the the fact that the Marines are the ones that
had the helicopter service. It used to be alternated between

(09:10):
the Army and the Marines, but the Army kind of
decided they wanted to save a couple of bucks back.
I think it was the Eisenhower administration you mentioned in
the book, and the Marine said, hey, this is a
great set of this is a great set of billets
and it's good PR. We'll stick with it. So that
the Navy and the Marine Corps by sheer stick to
itive to have managed to keep that. And there's also

(09:31):
an interesting background I think that also talks about our
Navy history is all the different buildings have little nicknames
that it got at one point or another. And you
mentioned Shangri Law before. One thing that this reminded me
of is for regulars here though, that I've been advocating

(09:52):
for we should be naming one of our aircraft carriers
Shangri Law because the Doolittle raid and Shane gri Law
with FDR. Why he brought that up. It's got a
great history. But also the for people that have visited
the White House. They know the White House Mess. It's
run by the Navy stewarts and one of the correct

(10:15):
and I'm wrong here, I believe it is the the
mess up in Camp David. It is called Little Louzon
because at that point in our Navy the stewards were
almost exclusively Philippine.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
And it's not the mess at the Camp David that
was called Little Luzon. It was the cabin that the
stewards would stay in, which was right next It was
built right next to the President's cabin, which during FDR's
time was called Bear's Den, but theirs was called Little Luzon.
And that cabin has a different name now, but it's

(10:52):
still the original. Both of those original cabins are still
up there. So yeah, the Navy has like this connection
all over the place, and they still do run the
mess at the White House.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
So you're you're a Navy chaplain, you're a submariner. You've
got left active service to go to Duke Divinity and
then you end up uh atty recommissioned, you come back
to service and what happened that gets you to to
Camp David as the as the chapelain and historian.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
Well, it's it's a interesting because everybody at Camp David,
you know, the best of the best are up there,
their hands selected. Everybody has a little bit of a
different selection process for it, but again it's it's the
best of the best. You can call your detailer and

(11:43):
say you want to go, and then for most of
the jobs they'll just be like, oh, that's great, you know,
and may or may not help you because you're asking
to go for the chaplain Specifically, I didn't ask for it.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
I wasn't really aware of it all.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
And funny story because my wonderful wife, who definitely keeps
me grounded, I got an email in December twenty sixteen
saying that I was being asked to apply, that I've
been nominated and they wanted me to apply for this position.
And I told my wife, you know, hey, this is

(12:20):
for the presidential retreat. And her first response was are
you sure it's not spam email? And went through the
whole process. They flew me from Singapore to Camp David
to interview and spent the day there and then found
out later that week that I was selected. Then in

(12:41):
February of twenty eighteen, I showed up as the chaplain
there and so again a regulous thing where they're picking
the best of the best. And to this day, I
don't know who nominated me for it, but I'm forever
grateful for that chance just to participate in something unique, special,
and to work with such an amazing team of just

(13:04):
some of the best sailors and marines that I've ever
met in my life.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
And obviously it was a bright, shiny pebble as you
walked in. But I assume when you know you accepted
to build it and walked in, you did you know
that it also came with the responsibility as historian? And
you know, how did you find out about the additional

(13:29):
collateral duty as historian and what we what were you
starting to discover with the records there that that eventually
led you on that path that we have this book.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
So I knew when I before I showed up, I
knew when I was selected that I would also be
the historian, and I was given a reading list of
some books and things to look over before I showed up.
I did not realize how intense that job would be,
and sometimes I felt like I was more the historian
than the chaplain. It would kind of go back and forth.

(14:03):
So it was a very significant collateral duty. And I'm
forever grateful for the long term people that had worked there,
or people that had visited in one administration and came
back to say, hey, you know, I remember when I
was here last time and this occurred. And some of

(14:23):
them are really interesting, fun stories, and as if I
could corroborate them, I would add them into the tour
to talk about that with guests that I would lead
around the retreat, and a lot of those stories have
made it into the book. The research, obviously there's some
records there at Camp David that I had access to,

(14:45):
but most of it was just reaching out to the
fourteen presidential libraries, working with the wonderful archivist staff there
and them giving me information, pointing me in different directions.
The library down the White House at the Eyes in
our Executive Office building another great resource with some wonderful

(15:05):
librarians that once they knew what I was doing, they
would point me in different directions, and just digging through
autobiographies and memoirs of people that had been there to
see what their feelings were and if what they had
felt in walking through the gates and walking you know,

(15:25):
through the amazingly beautiful and secluded and quiet nature trails
essentially and just seeing you know, the different seasons and
just the way that how that how nature just affects
everybody working through all that just led to this book.

(15:46):
That and you know, some prodding for my wife to say, hey,
these stories are amazing. You probably need to tell more
than just the people that our guests here and give
a wider audience to such a special place.

Speaker 4 (15:58):
Well, it's really an interesting location in between Gettysburg and
I mean there's Gettysburg, there's Camp David, and then there's
the the other mountains which have through which the Appalachian
Trail runs, and so there's a bunch of country out
there that's really pretty. Ivan. I hiked that part of
the Appalation Trail one time. Talk a little bit about

(16:22):
the serenity and I mean it was it was a
camp originally when it was a children's camp or something
to begin with.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yes, it was originally a camp that was designed mostly
for boys for the for boys to camp there. Originally
the Katactin Recreation Demonstration Areas what the original area was
called called for four different Camps three are still in
use today. There's one called Green Top and that camp

(16:53):
hosts for the I think it's the longest running summer
camp for disabled children in America, and so every summer
it booked out for that purpose. There's a camp near
the bottom of the mountain called Misty Mount in the
Katoctin National Park and you can rent cabins at Misty
Mount throughout the year. And then Camp number three, which

(17:16):
became Camp David, was originally going to be a boys camp.
The boy Scouts used it for a little while, and
then there was plans for a fourth camp that never
happened because of the war, and that was going to
be just for girls. And so originally it was twenty
four cabins, a dining hall, a swimming pool, kind of
your typical camp that you would like outdoor camp, summer

(17:39):
camp that people still would go to, just small little
cabins that would sleep two to four, maybe ten. And
then it there was a perfect spot that they picked.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
The woods just keep the the.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
Weather cool and the hot summer when it's hot and
humid like it always is in the mid Atlantic, and
then as a fall.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
It's just amazing.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
The the mountains are on fire with when the leaves change.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
The only downside is when it's cold.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
It's even colder up on the mountain than anywhere else
in the surrounding area. But from the vistas that you
can see from Camp David, especially the one that they
cut out during Truman's administration behind the President's cabin behind Aspen,
when you stand on that patio, you can see all
the way to Keysville, And as I mentioned the book,

(18:35):
that's where Francis Scott Key was born. And so it's
just this really cool connection between where the president is
sleeping and can look out and see where the author
of the National Anthem was born.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
The nuggets that comes out in the book, that's it's
one of those little little moments that reminds you sometimes
that our republic can actually be a very small place.
Is obviously because it was Zion and brought during his
presidency right before the Second World War and through the
Second World War with FDR very much in its origin

(19:09):
and today has FDR's stamp on it. But after the
war was over with and with the new president, there
was a move because of its pre war use for
those camps for children to try to for those familiar
with the nineteen nineties brack to basically brack what we
now know is Camp David and to civilianize that that

(19:32):
actually involved a very powerful political player, the father of
former Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yes, and for me that was very interesting is just
digging through the research and looking for all these documents
that I saw commerce do you cell Adrenda? I'm a
butcher the name do you sella? Drendo's name from Maryland?
And I was like, that name looks the and then
I realized that it was Nancy Pelosi's maiden name, and

(20:04):
then did more research and realized that her father is
essentially one of the one of the key voices that
saved or that was trying to get Camp David returned
back to its original use. However, he didn't win that.
But then green Top was modified, which is kind of

(20:25):
halfway down the mountain. Camp green Top was modified to
to serve that purpose for the disabled children to have
their summer camp.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
So it's just.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
It's a Camp David is like this amazing connector of
all these different threads, not just in US history or
Navy history, but world history, like so much has happened there,
and so many decisions have been made that it's just
got this it it threads the needle through so much

(20:56):
that it just it amazed me. Every time I would
uncover or something in the research, I was like, Oh,
that's an amazing that's an amazing fact and amazing connection
between this little secluded, private mountaintop retreat for the president
that has you know, sens echoes throughout the world.

Speaker 4 (21:15):
And I think that's a really interesting point because you
can talk about this the effect of some of the
situations that presidents have been in World War Two, Korea, Vietnam,
you go through the litany of things we've been fighting
over the years. This seems to be a really important

(21:36):
place for them to get alone or semi alone. Some
of them seem to be less inclined to be by
themselves than others, but to get to the to make
important decisions. Talk a little bit out about in your book.
You did talk about this, but I a little more
about about how that works has worked for the presidents
of the United States.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
I think each president is going to use it a
little differently. Some of them focus it more on bringing
family and friends and just using it primarily to relax.
Others use it primarily for business or for summits and
things like that, but every president has used it for
both purposes. It's just a matter of their personality and

(22:20):
you know, kind of how they want to bring people
up there or not. And I think it's because it's
such a secluded, solitary place where you can just be yourself.
There's no press, and even when the press did kind
of follow them to the area, the press still was

(22:42):
never really allowed inside the gates. There's one time where
they were the camp staff and the White House staff
had put like a little what they called the duck
blind where one or two reporters could look in and
see the helicopter land and take off, and that was it.
That was the only access they had beyond the gate

(23:03):
unless the president invited them in. And I think it's
that seclusion, the ability to be yourself with your friends
and family. And when presidents realized how relaxed it made
them feel and how it brought out who they really were,
they started to invite other world leaders there to get.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
To know them on that.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
I think one of the things that we all keep
coming back to culturally is over time we realize that
it's the relationships that matter, and if we have this
setting that can build relationships away from the social media,
away from all of this, all the distractions and the pressures,

(23:46):
I think we get a lot more done. And as
presidents realize how it relaxes them and they can be
themselves there, they invite other people there to come to
some amazing world changing decisions. I mean that that is
exactly how this happened to be the place for the
Camp David Accords. Jimmy Carter's walking around the grounds, you know,

(24:11):
the peaceful grounds, doing his daily walk with Rosalind and
just says, hey, you know what if I brought my
knocking began and anwar sadat here, just to see if
something could happen. And she looked at him and said, well,
you know you're going to get blamed if it goes wrong.
And his response was basically, well, I'm going to get

(24:31):
blamed no matter what, So let's try this. And because
of that setting, because of the way the spirit of
Camp David worked on Jimmy Carter, we now have the
one and only peace accord that has lasted in the
Middle East. I mean, we're almost fifty years now and
it's still going strong. And I think that solitude it

(24:56):
makes you realize who you are, and then you get
to learn who other people are and you can solve
a lot of problems that way.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
And that'd be a perfect place to bring up a
quote that really stuck with me. Because place matters, environment matters,
circumstance matters. That's why when a lot of these big
conferences and meetings they take place in big cities and
you got a couple of hundred straphangers and it's tightly scheduled,

(25:23):
I don't see how anybody can think or be flexible.
And a lot of times with those real high profile events,
if you have a Brussels or London or Berlin or
Prague or wherever, everything that's going to happen there is
tightly scripted ahead of times, so you don't have much
room for thought. And there's a quote you have in

(25:43):
there that I think speaks to a couple things you
brought up before from Keith Waller. He was the Australian
ambassador to the United States from sixty four to nineteen seventy.
Do a little quote from him that you have in
the book. Quote a great deal of what one might
call highlight level diplomacy depends on the development of the
personal relationship. You must have mutual trust and confidence. You

(26:06):
must have a sense of being at ease, and this
can often be achieved more regularly if you're away from
the formal atmosphere of the White House unquote. And it
had me thinking that besides some of the castles, the
British monarchy may have Camp David in some ways is
a diplomatic strategic asset that the US has. It's hard

(26:29):
to find replicated someplace else in a permanent facility.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
I agree.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
The closest parallel around the world that I can think
of as checkers, which is the Prime Minister the British
Prime Minister's country residents, but it never has had the
cachet or the ability to have these amazing friendships forged
and things happen. It's interesting you bring up the Keith

(26:56):
Waller quote.

Speaker 3 (26:58):
That was an.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Interesting thing for me to learn is just how close
President Johnson became to the Australian Prime Minister Harold Holt,
so much so that when Harold Holt died of some
questionable circumstances, he drowned swimming in the Ocean in Australia.

(27:19):
Johnson decided to fly halfway around the world to his
friend's funeral, you know, just kind of at a drop
of a hat, because of the relationship which was partially
forged up on that mountain where they got to know
each other so well. And that's why the ambassador who
was up there, he saw that happen. It could see
that friendship start over the time. And I think you're right.

(27:41):
It's I think we need more places like that. And
I think countries, if they have the ability to create
or convert something of retreat or a country home into
somewhere where peace can happen, I think they should give
it a try. But there's just something special about that mountain.

(28:05):
And that's what Nikita Krushchev was the one who coined
the phrase the spirit of Camp David, and it really is.
There's there's this this spirit that runs through that camp.
I remember, you know, some of my best memories are
if I if I got overwhelmed or busy, I would
just take a little bit of time and just walk
around you know what we call cabin loop, you know,

(28:26):
through the cabins and the trails and just let the
worries of the world. Drip away and fall away is
as you're just walking in this secluded, serene spot where
you're at one with nature and you can think. And
I saw it when I was giving tours to people
like I could see the pressures of the day fall upon,

(28:48):
you know, fall away from them, and they would start
laughing and joking and open up and it was just
this amazing place that just let you be yourself.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
And I think.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
That's what has made Camp David endure. Numerous administrations have
thought about closing it, but then they go up there
and they realize the power of it and decide that
it's it's just not worth it's worth more than they
pay for it every year and upkeep.

Speaker 4 (29:18):
Yeah, it's you mentioned Khrushchev being there, and and you
know I went to I can't remember everybody that showed up,
and I know that that, uh, it goes all the
way through to Putin, who was invited but initially sent.
The first thing is khrushchef was dubious right about about
being called a camp, because camp seems to be a
little different meaning in the Soviet Union in those days

(29:40):
than than a place to hold such such important meetings
we'll talk a little bit about about the guests that
that have been there other than Bagan and Sadad and
and khruse Chef.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, I think that that's an interesting point. You bring
up your kruse Chef and Putin being invited. As I
talked about in the book, but I hopefully it comes
out is that a lot of the people that get
invited for the big events are who we would consider
enemies of the US or adversaries. Probably the better way
to put it being at Brezhev came so there's been

(30:14):
two Soviet premiers that have come up there. Putin was
invited for the G eight in twenty twelve but instead
did not go, and set Medvedev, Gostor Arafat came up
with Ahud Barak in two thousand when Clinton was trying
to forge peace between the PLO and Israel. And there's

(30:34):
one part I talked about in the book that made
headlines during Trump's first administration. It was kept secret until
after the plan fell apart, but he had planned to
bring the Taliban, Afghanistan, and the US together at Camp
David one weekend to try to hash out a deal,
a withdrawal and peace deal in Afghanistan, and because of

(30:59):
some suicide bombings that happened in the week leading up
to it, it fell apart and Trump announced it on
Twitter or now x, I guess.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
Right at the end.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
And I think it's the power of Camp David that
gives these presidents the confidence to bring people who we
would normally think of adversaries or enemies up there, because
they know that all of the pretension will fall away
and who they really are will come out, and if
they can make something work, it'll happen while they're up there.

(31:32):
And I think that's just, you know, amazing that it
presidents feel okay inviting, not just friendly people like Margaret
Thatcher who came up with gen or the British prime
ministers who have been there a number of times, notably
the first one was Churchill planning to do some war
planning up there. I just think every like the whole

(31:53):
spectrum gets to come up there and it works on everybody.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
There's also a few little details that it's not just
when you look at the layout of it, it's just
not a converted kids camp that they've put some buildings
in as they needed to grow. There's some very interesting
architectural decisions that have you know, as you're talking about
these important people, especially when you bring people who aren't

(32:18):
friends or and opposite as of negotiation, how architecture and layout,
in addition to the atmosphere of the place neutralizes a
lot of the concerns you can have in other places. Specifically,
you have the two buildings called Birch and Dogwood that
have a very very diplomatic design. Talk a little bit

(32:41):
about that and how that's manifested itself a few times.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
Well, first I want to mention you're right, and then
it's more than just a summer camp or a boys camp.
There's all kinds of things to do, and part of
the architecture is you've got to walk to the pool,
you've got to to the skeet range, you've got to
walk to the bowling alley to the movie theater.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
Along these paths.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
So if you're walking with a world leader, there's obviously
time to talk as you're going to do these things.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
So that adds to the ability to.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
Lower some of the boundaries and adds to the diplomacy
because you're forced if you're going to do a recreational activity,
of which there's plenty to do up there. You've still
got to walk together to get there. But you mentioned
Birch and Dogwood, and that was during the Nixon administration.
One of the things that I think people they associate

(33:34):
Nixon with Watergate, and obviously that dominated his presidency. But
at Camp David, he completely renovated a lot of the
buildings because they were old and needed maintenance. But he
built a number of new ones, and he built what's
called the Dogwood and Birch, which are premier cabins, guest
cabins where guests can sleep. And I don't think I

(33:56):
don't know how much the thought went into it, but
diplomatically it turned out to be one of the best
decisions because the cabins are identical design and they are
the exact same distance from the front door of Aspen,
the president's cabin. So you could bring two world leaders
up there and one would not feel like they were

(34:18):
being slighted by the other because of a less prestigious
or a less opulent cabin.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
It's they're both equal.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
They're the same distance to the president, so you can't say, well,
you like him more than me because that person's closer.
And I honestly think and I mentioned this in the book,
is that I think that is one of the reasons
that Jimmy Carter picked Camp David was because of those
two cabins and where they were, and he was thinking

(34:47):
diplomatically and knew that he had to eliminate as many
barriers as possible between the two sides to try to
get them to talk to each other.

Speaker 4 (34:57):
Yeah, I was impressed by the way that number of
presidents have modified Camp David to meet their particular preferences.
So I think you said Truman had a big section
the woods removed so they could get a vista better,
Eisenhower had some had a golf all put in. Talk

(35:18):
about some of the other change.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
But like you said, I think every president puts a
little touch in there somehow. Obviously, you know FDR builds it.
The fish pond is there because of a fear of
fire that FDR.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
Had, And at one point the.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
Wall from the president's bedroom at Aspen to the patio
was can't delivered. So if Roosevelt had a fire, he
could just kind of roll his wheelchair up to the
wall and keep pushing and the wall would fall away
and he could get out that's no longer there, but
that was one of.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
The original designs that he put in.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
Like you said, Truman, they cut a notch into the
trees so that he could see out. But more than that,
they also just cleared an entire basically field and cut
a bunch of trees down so he could see out
as well. For President Kennedy, they brought some horses up
to stable them because they were a big equestrian family.

(36:22):
There's a video on YouTube you can watch if you
type in Caroline Kennedy riding Macaroni at Camp David and
you'll see her riding her pony named Macaroni around. Nixon
did a bunch of things to built a bunch of things. Eisenhower,
they went and or he and Mamy redid a bunch

(36:46):
of the cabins just because it had been fifteen years
at that point and it needed some upgrades.

Speaker 3 (36:51):
They had some flooding issues.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
The most recent is President Trump and Milania together redesigned
the interior of Aspen Cabin And it's this beautiful modern
design that nods back to the history. So it keeps
the history of Camp David and the and the retreat

(37:15):
in mind. But it's just this beautiful modern elegance that's
that's in the president's cabin and as each each cabin
goes under renovation, whatever administration is there, they're going to
add their touches to it to kind of put their
thing there. Even George H. W. Bush put in a
playground right beside the horseshoe pit that he wanted, so

(37:36):
when he's playing, you know, horseshoes, which was his favorite activity,
he could see the grandkids playing on the playground right
right across the path from him. So, like you said,
every president's going to add a little bit. And most
of those touches, the staff does what they can to
keep them there to honor what that president did, but
also just to offer more to the next administration.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
But not all of them do. I had to laugh
and please tell me, as historian of Camp David that
this there's a photographic evidence of this. But you also
mentioned Maimie Eisenhower really really liked pink and she did
a little bit of a festive coloring of the camp
that evidently did not survive the Eisenhower administration. But I

(38:20):
also realized that when we in the beginning of the show,
we didn't talk about as well, how the name Camp
David came into being, which was also at Eisenhower's to
talk a little bit about about Maimie's interior design theory
and where why we actually call it Camp David and
not Shane Girl. I like it its original name.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
Well, to answer the question about Maimie's interior design taste,
I was unable to find any photographic evidence that anything
got painted pink, but there is some evidence out there
it may have, and so we talked about that a
little bit, and that did not survive if there was
anything painted pink. Another thing that what Eisenhower did with

(39:05):
Maimi's help is actually it was Mami's idea.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
They renamed all of the cabins.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
So originally FDR had named them bears Den, ten Downing Street,
just kind of humorous names that he found funny that
had some kind of connection to what that cabin did,
Like ten Downing Street was for the Secret Service, tell
it to the Marines, was the communication cabin, and things

(39:32):
like that. When Maimi came in, they renamed all of
the cabins based on local trees and flowers and and
a nod to her and what she had done for
the naming. They renamed the president's cabin Aspen because she's
from Colorado, and so that's kind of the only non
local tree that a cabin is named after. And so

(39:57):
the naming of Camp David is interesting because at that time,
back then, we had presidential yachts, and so when Eisenhower
showed up, he started naming things about like the kind
of the perks of the presidency, after his grandchildren, to
incorporate his family into this amazing opportunity he had been

(40:18):
given as president. And so he named two of the
yachts after two of his grandchildren. And then he had
his grandson David, and he was like, well, what can
I name after David? And then he decided to name
the retreat. He was going to change it from Shangri
Lau to you know, named after David, and because it
looked like a camp, he just decided to call it
Camp David. What's interesting is he named he changed the

(40:41):
name so close to a visit that the paint was
still wet on the sign when his motorcade drove through.

Speaker 3 (40:49):
And so that's how it became the name Camp David.
And then when.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
JFK came in, I think JFK probably would have renamed
it had his president, had he not been assassinated, because
he had renamed the yachts back to names for his family,
and he had named one after I believe his grandfather,
the Honey Fits, and so I would have I assumed

(41:15):
that would have changed, because that was Eisenhower's whole intent,
was it When the new president came in, they would
just rename everything however they wanted to. But when Kennedy
was assassinated, the name stuck. And then after what happened
with the Camp David Accords, there's no way anybody's ever
going to change the name.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
Now.

Speaker 4 (41:34):
Well, talking a little bit about who manages, you know,
does all this work there? Is? Is that the Navy
CBS is that who is there a CBE officer there
or a similar drink Corps officer there or is it
a regular line officer? And then it's part two, what
does the Navy chaplain do there when he's not running
down the history of them?

Speaker 2 (41:55):
So the site is still managed by the Navy. It's
called Naval Support facil Thermot when the president is not
present and the commanding officer.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
Is as a.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
Civil engineer, Corps officer and then the staff, the Navy
staff that is there is a mix of every rating.
There's Navy cooks, there's Navy cbs, obviously a chaplain and
my assist at the RP. There's some communication people, there's
Corman doctors up there. So it's it's a big wide

(42:29):
swath of Navy ratings. And for anybody that's in the
Navy active duty that's listening, especially the junior people. Camp
David does do some recruiting trips to all the fleet
concentration areas, so keep an eye out for that message.
And when they come through looking to talk about it,
go and at least sit and hear about what opportunities
are there for your rating, because it's an opportunity I think,

(42:51):
you know, if you're motivated, high performing sailor, go and
do it. And then the security is provided by the
Marines who patrol the perimeter and keep keep everything secure.
As for the chaplain, when I'm not running down the history,
I would preach in the chapel every week to the

(43:15):
permanent staff, and then if there are any guests President
or whoever, I get to preach to them as well.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
And just taking care.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
Of the spiritual and morale needs of the staff that
are up there throughout the week, and I would be
the chaplain to the president and the vice president and
their families if they're in residence, and would just take
care of any of the guests if they had anything
come up.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
We would be.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
There to provide whatever help they needed in their.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
Spiritual faith. You know, journey.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
Let's tap into the to the chaplain part of Charles
because I've always maybe because he was president when I
was just starting to understand the world around me, I've
always been very interested in Richard Nixon. And the individual
who showed me this didn't know this, but a friend

(44:11):
of mine was giving me a tour of the old
Executive Office building, and there is an office in there
that Nixon first use when he was vice president. Nowadays
it's not really used for anything, but it's a green
room and you can when you look out the window,
you can see the Washington Monument. It's framed inside the window.

(44:34):
It's a very quiet, you know, that institutional green color
that relaxes everybody. But even when he was president, Nixon
liked to go over there to decompress, get away from
the White House hustle, and there was like one of
the ongoing jokes there is for the National Security Counc's
Little Kissinger tried so hard to get in the White House,

(44:55):
And while Kissinger was in there, Nixon was doing all
I could do is to get out of the White House.
And you know, as a chaplain, a lot of what
you help people with is some of the byproducts of
not just the military line of work, but especially in
a place up at Camp David, people at the very
senior levels of leadership, management, and authority, and it can

(45:19):
be a place full of solitude, and through solitude a
lot of times as chaplains, though, reflection is important to
get through that. And Nixon specifically commented on as president
the lass of privacy and the solace in the sense

(45:41):
of isolation that he had and Camp David. As I
read the book, I didn't realize how much Nixon really
used Camp David. And when as I was reading that,
I kept thinking about other things I had read about Nixon,
and you could see why a place like that would
be of of value and used to an individual like.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
Yeah, it's interesting Nixon used it.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
He's got the second most number of visits at the
one hundred and sixty one in his five years in
the presidency, and I think if he had done the
full eight years, he probably would have eclipsed even Reagan's
one hundred and eighty nine visits. I think it's it's
just I think it's very hard for people to lose
their sense of privacy, you know. I think everybody needs

(46:29):
some solitude at some point. From the chaplain perspective, I
think in any you know, relationship, friendship, family, or whatever,
you kind of got to get away from everybody.

Speaker 3 (46:40):
At some point, you know.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
I think the easiest the analogy I can draw that
most people will be familiar with is that if you've
ever roomed with somebody, you know, you can't spend all
of your time with your roommates. You've got to get
away from them to just be yourself. And I think
that's important for everybody. And when you were the president
of the United States and the office surrounds you literally

(47:06):
twenty four to seven, I mean President Reagan talked about
it as well, or Nancy I think talked about it
in one of her and her memoir when she said,
you know, everywhere we went, there was always a military aid,
a doctor, and some other aids that had to be
with the with what you know, she called him Ronnie
with Ronnie all the time. And the only place that

(47:29):
he could go where they would kind of leave him
alone and not be within sight of him was it
Camp David. Because even at the White House there's this
staff that is their whole job is to wait on
your hand and foot and they're just a call away,
whereas at least at Camp David, if you want to
walk around and relax and just be normal. And I

(47:52):
think that's the key, is that you know that that
ability to get some solitude, to recharge, to think, to
just take a deep breath. We all need that, and
you lose that with the presidency. So I think that's
it's important for everybody, even more so when you know
you've got the nuclear football, you know, within an arms

(48:13):
throw from where you are.

Speaker 4 (48:14):
Well, that raises an interesting question. You're you're you're a
submarine before you became a chaplain. I guess you're still
a submariner, But does that perspective help you and understanding
some of the because you're when you're stuck in a
in a metal tube for a long time with a
bunch of other folks, you don't get much privacy either.
Does that Does that help you understand is the situation

(48:37):
the president was in a little bit.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
I've never thought of that, but I think that that's
probably a good reason why I was able to articulate
that in the book a little better is because I'm
you know, I would spend you know, seventy eighty days underwater,
you know, a three hundred foot tube with one hundred
and fifty my best friends, who I still love and
talk to all the time.

Speaker 3 (48:58):
But you know that when you.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
When you pulled in from those long underways, a lot
of times you just went your separate ways for a
day or two to relax, and then you would come
together or at least for a few hours, just to
have that time. So I think it did give me
a different perspective to understand maybe a little glimpse into
what the president dealt with or you know, all these

(49:23):
presidents have dealt with, from from FDR to to now
Trump two point zero. I think it definitely helped me
in dealing. I think it also helps me deal with
the commanding officers I talked to, because I know how
a lonely command can be. And I think it all
kind of intertwines together. I think being there at Camp

(49:45):
David and seeing what solitude does to the probably loneliest person,
you know, the one that you know command is a
lonely command, the one that's there that nobody else understands.
And talking to commanding officers and learning from canning officers
to talk to high ranking government officials who need a
break and just need somebody to talk to and.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
Vent a little bit.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
With, well something else a Navy chaplain who's probably spent
too much time around marines. It's healthy for anybody is
also aware of is there's a there's a few lighthearted
things in the book as well, besides the diplomacy and
drama and the solitude and their reflection. But one thing
that the chaplains are aware of, and so are commanding officers,

(50:30):
is the quarter mile outside any Navy or Marine Corps
base is fraught with danger, so to speak, with interactions
with the local community, so to speak. And this is
at the end of the day, it's it's a naval
facility with marines and enlisted folks, but there's an interesting
interaction with the local community because it's not like naval

(50:51):
based norfolk or anything, or Camp Pendleton. It's a small place,
but in the local community through both the Navy and
Marine Corps people station there, but also with the presidents.
I thought there was a really nice color about President
eyesen Heller in this regard. But in the local community,
whether it's church, whether it's local restaurants, who's getting married to,

(51:14):
who are keeping frick of the deer away from hunters?
There has been some some good interplay with the local
community out of Camp Dated.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
Yeah, And I think that's I think that is more
the you know, the in the service, we tell everybody,
you know, want to be good neighbors. And I think
when you have the the top notch, like the the
best of the best in terms of service members working
at a base, obviously they're not going to be the
ones that are getting in trouble or they wouldn't be

(51:46):
where they are. And so they understand, you know, everything
they do, both on and off duty, reflects on them
and essentially on the president, and so they're going to
have more positive interactions. And so I think that combined
with the small town America. We're gonna protect our president

(52:09):
regardless of who they are, and we we're going to respect,
you know, respect their privacy. I think Thurmont has has
played this amazing role where this small town has quietly
just supported all this history right up the mountain, and
they guard that as well.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
Like there's not a lot of press.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Doing the research, I didn't find a lot of times
where people in Thermont were complaining about Camp David.

Speaker 3 (52:39):
Occasionally they would, but not very often.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
And most of what I found was they were very
protective of the president, and I think that helped keep
Camp David where it is and open and gave the
presidents the ability to venture down the mountain occasionally. Like
you said, Eisenhower went to church Churchill when he was

(53:04):
up there in nineteen forty three, was down at the
Cozy Inn at the jukebox, you know, smoking his cigars.
And presidents have driven through before, through the city before,
the town before. And then you've got the Marines and
the sailors that live and work there interacting with the
community and people in Thurmont, like if they see Obviously

(53:26):
the military were obvious based on our haircuts and the
way we carry ourselves.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
They never said they never.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
Come and go, oh, where do you work, or they
would just kind of give you a little nod, and
like we know where you work, and welcome to our town,
and and we want, you know, this relationship to work.
And it worked so well that one of the former
Marines became mayor of Thermont for three terms.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
You know.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
So there's there's just this real good symbiotic relationship between
the small town of Thermont and Camp David.

Speaker 4 (53:59):
Yeah, I was. I was get to some of the
magic about the place. And one of the great stories
you're telling there is were George Bush introduced Garbaschev to
horseshoes and Garbashov throws a ringer on it. He's never
played it before, but throws a ringer on his first throw.

(54:19):
And the nice touch about that was this says a
lot about the staff there. The staff got that horseshoe
and and and mounted it somehow and gave it to
Garbashov as a as a as a gift. And that
I mean that speaks about a really a teddy group
of people who who understand how the world works.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Yes, And that I when I first heard that story,
I thought it was a legend.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
And then I found.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
The the transcript of Bush's press conference up following that
visit where he talked about it, and he talked about
it again in another speech. But yes, the staff up there,
they're focused on one thing and that taking care of
the president, first family and their guests and giving them
a five star experience, you know, and I think regardless,

(55:10):
they learn what the president is like. It takes a
few months, but they learn what the president's like, what
they want, what they need, what they appreciate, and then
they kind of gel around that and work to help
the president do what they need to do. They know
that by supporting the president and taking care of them
and the little touches like mounting a horseshoe onto a

(55:32):
plaque makes the president able to do their job more
efficiently and better.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
You know, with the job you did there and everybody
else that station. You know, people the military service, the
service part of service, and when you have an opportunity
to serve the chief executive in a circumstance like that,
and people look at, you know, a country retreat, they
think that, you know, this is a place where somebody

(55:59):
runs to get away from it all, which in a
way it is. But when reading the stories a lot
of it especially you know, thinking as a father and
as a husband in that type of position where you're
on twenty four, seven, three sixty five, you never really
are able to get away, and so that facility, it
seemed to me, you have that support staff there that

(56:21):
is there to create an opportunity where, especially if you
have a president like Kennedy who had young kids, or
you know, the Clintons had had Chelsea who was young,
that they don't have a normal family life, maybe you
can go and escape for a little bit. So there's
that type of service, the service first family as kind
of a decompression valve in a way. But also when

(56:42):
you look at whether it's with Yasser Arafat, Ahud Barak, Brezhnev, Khrushchev,
you have Sadat and began it, also you are serving
a larger strategic and diplomatic role by creating an environment
that as we've discussed earlier, the show is very very

(57:03):
unique in that. So you know, you're talking about people
getting invitations invited to come there. If somebody was really
interested in doing something like that, I don't think besides
White House Service or Camp David, there's really anything similar
to that in the US Military service. About how large
of a cadre is there of people that are invited

(57:24):
to come do that really unique role of service to
their nation.

Speaker 2 (57:28):
Well, I can't talk about how many people are stationed there,
but it's you know, I think over the years, when
you serve for a year with the president directly serving
the president, you get the Presidential Service Badge. And since
its inception, I want to say that was during Eisenhower's term,

(57:49):
I think there's only been like thirty five thirty six
thousand people that have been awarded that badge. So it's
a very rare thing. And that's across all services, both
at the White House, Air Force one, Marine one, and
Camp David and other places, so it's it's a select few,
and so it's it's definitely an honor to be able

(58:11):
to support that. You know, at times you may not
feel like you're supporting the strategic mission by supporting the
president and the guests, but when you do sit back
and reflect on it, you realize that, yeah, I had
a small part in make in setting the conditions for
something greater to happen. And again that's just I think

(58:31):
it's it's kind of the It encapsulates everything of why
we joined the military to serve others and to serve
the country, and you get to see it almost like
up front, how you can set the conditions to let
the decision makers focus on the big things while you're
taking care of the little things.

Speaker 4 (58:50):
Yeah. I think that's a great point. I was as
you were talking. I was thinking when my dad was
in the Strategic Air Command, their their motto was pieces
our profession, and I think the staff up there probably
got to assume that motto was part of their own
because that setting the conditions under which pea stocks could
occur in a congenial place without the people they're having

(59:11):
to worry about anything, like you do if you have
your own place or in a hotel or convention center
or something. I think that's a terrific job and one
well worth serving your country.

Speaker 3 (59:22):
Yeah, I think you know, one of the things to remember.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
Like we talked about how we set the conditions for
strategic stuff, you know, the fun things I think are
what most of the staff remembers, more like taking Caroline Kennedy,
you know, getting horses for her, letting Reagan ride horses
around camp and sometimes off the property.

Speaker 3 (59:44):
Obviously with Secret Service.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
The Bushes, both Bush presidencies, they spent all of their
Christmases at Camp David because both Bush. Both Presidents Bush
realized that by going to Camp David they could it
would be less of a strain on the staff and
more people would be able to get time off, so
they went up there. The Clintons decided that they wanted

(01:00:07):
to do every Thanksgiving up at Camp David, and so
they would invite friends and family up for that. President
Obama he celebrated his birthday up there every year and
did like what the staff called the Camp Athlon, basically
little feats of strength and skill with his friends. And
his fiftieth birthday, they to make it even more special,

(01:00:30):
they brought the actor that did the Most Interesting Man
in the World commercials for Doseki's. He came up and
was part of that celebration. And there's just all kinds
of little things that the staff would support on the
fun side that made the serious stuff possible.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
What Charles, we really appreciate you taking time to be
with us here for the full hour, and again for
the listeners who maybe enjoined us at the beginning. The
book is Presidential Seclusion, The Power of Camp Day and
you'll find a link there on the show page. So
you've got you've got one book under your belt. Have
you have you scratched that itching up or is there
something else you might be working on down the road.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
There's a few others.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
We've got one that's a compilation of my sermons from
Camp David that I'm finishing up editing now and we'll
hopefully get to a publisher soon and hopefully somebody will
publish that one. And then I've got two other history
books that I'm doing some research on, and my wife
and I are working on a couple of joint projects
as well. So this is the first one and hopefully

(01:01:34):
the first and a long line of different projects that
did happen over the next few years.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
That's great, Charles. I look forward to seeing them and
I do appreciate you taking time to to spend with
us here on this Sunday afternoon.

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
Yeah, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
It's, like I said to the pre show, a longtime listener,
first time callers, so it's nice to.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
To be part of this.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
And you know, like just the letter by know, you know,
the easy way to get a hold of me is
through the website Charles Ferguson books dot com and that'll
have all the information that that you need.

Speaker 4 (01:02:10):
Well, thanks thanks again for joining it's been really interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
All right, Thanks gentlemen, and thank you very much Eir
Bonnie for join us for another edition of mid Rats
until next day. I hope you have a great navy day. Cheers.

Speaker 5 (01:02:27):
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Speaker 6 (01:02:51):
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Speaker 5 (01:03:08):
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Speaker 6 (01:03:12):
Fair.

Speaker 5 (01:03:12):
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Speaker 6 (01:03:19):
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