#368: Write Better Music Through Storytelling w/ Jeff Leisawitz

Jeff Leisawitz is a musician, producer, coach, college songwriting professor, and author. His new book The Magical Impact of Storytelling explores how creatives can connect with their audiences and produce more meaningful work with effective storytelling. 

It was great to have Jeff back on the Music Production Podcast to discuss how we can use storytelling to make better music. We talk about how writing about the specific helps illuminate the universal. Jeff shares famous stories that have helped hit songs connect with listeners. We discuss dealing with the inner critic and the concepts of The Golden Repair, The Hero's Journey, and Head, Heart, and Hands. 

Takeaways

• Storytelling in music has the power to create emotional connections with listeners.
• Specific details in storytelling can make a story more relatable and memorable.
• Balancing the specific and the universal in storytelling can create a deeper emotional impact.
• Limitations and experimentation can lead to unique and creative musical experiences.
• Being vulnerable and authentic in expressing emotions through music is essential.
• Accompanying songs with stories of their creation can add depth and interest to the music.
• Having a unique story and perspective is crucial for musicians to stand out in a saturated market.
• The Hero's Journey can serve as a template for creating compelling narratives in music.
• Embracing imperfections and using them to create something beautiful can add depth and character to music.
• The inner critic can be seen as a collaborator rather than an adversary, providing valuable feedback and pushing for improvement.

Listen on Apple, Spotify, Google, YouTube

Links:

• Jeff's Site - https://jeffleisawitz.com
• The Magical Impact of Storytelling - https://amzn.to/3QNSCYJ
• Complementary Coaching Session with Jeff - https://jeffleisawitz.com/coaching/
• Not F*ing Around - https://amzn.to/3QJyqXS
• Jeff's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYewSq3WO-mEy3JwcOuHedQ
• Jeff's Music - Electron Love Theory - https://electron-love-theory.com
• Jeff's 1st Appearance on the Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/blog/jeff-leisawitz
• Rolling Stone AI Song Went Viral - https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/suno-ai-chatgpt-music-soul-of-the-machine-1234992365/
• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com
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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Jeff, welcome back, great to see youagain.
Hey, great to be here.
Thanks for having me on your show.
Yeah, it's really nice to have you.
We spoke, I think we said it was likeabout two years ago.
And that was when you released your book,Not F 'ing Around, which is a fun read and
has some great takeaways.
And now you have a new one, The MagicalImpact of Storytelling.

(00:25):
Very exciting.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Yeah, I'm all about the storytelling and Ithought I'd write a book about it.
You know, when I saw the title of the bookand I started looking through it, it
reminded me of a story you told me lasttime we spoke about getting into music.
And I think you were at like a summer campor something.

(00:47):
And there was like an older dude that waslike, Hey man, check this out.
I showed you drums and stuff.
I think the who's won't be fooled again.
And it occurred to me like, you know,that's the story.
And that's kind of like the folklore ofyour...
you know, coming to be.
And it stuck with me as opposed to like,yeah, you know, I just kind of got into

(01:10):
music and older guys showed me, you know,whatever.
You could have really taken it down anotch, but the way you told the story made
it stick in my head, you know, even afterall this time.
So there's definitely a power there.
There is, stories have a ton of power andwhen they are told authentically and with
some craft, whether that's in a novel or alittle verbal story over cocktails or in a

(01:35):
song, it can have real power and that isthe power of storytelling.
It connects us emotionally as opposed to alot of other kinds of communication which
is almost more informationally.
Yeah.
And I feel like my instinct would havesaid, if you tell this really specific

(01:58):
story about your life, the more specificyou got, it would almost distance me from
it.
Like I won't connect to it anymore becausethat didn't happen to me in that way.
But I think actually the opposite happens.
We start to connect to it more and seehow, even though...
That didn't happen to me that way.
I can relate to the idea of being turnedon to some music by somebody else.

(02:22):
Absolutely, it's true.
So one of the things I talk about in thebook is the secret sauce for a great story
or a great lyric and the secret sauce isis half of what you well actually all of
what you just said the very specifics of astory is what makes it personal and the

(02:45):
universal themes of a story
is what makes it connect with others.
So in the story that I told you before,you know, I was at summer camp and...
You know, it was after dinner one nightand it was the late 70s and all this and
that.

(03:05):
And the counselor asks me to come in tothe cabin where he's playing the drums
with the who and all this and that.
It's very specific.
The story itself is very specific, likeyou said, but the universal piece is that
we've all, I suspect all your listenershere have all had some moment where

(03:26):
they're like, oh.
I get it.
I understand music.
It blows my heart out.
Like, wow, I gotta do this.
So it's the universal theme, at least forthis community, songwriters and musicians
and stuff, and then my specific storyaround it.

(03:50):
It's like, I tell this one to a moregeneral audience.
So this was back in college.
I'm...
In college, it's a beautiful autumn day.
I decide, of course, to cut class with mygirlfriend at the time.
It's a Tuesday afternoon.

(04:10):
We get out of there.
We go get some ice cream.
She gets the chocolate with a ton of thosecolored sprinkles.
We go down to this little park.
There's a lake down there.
We're standing on this bridge.
And these little ducks go by.
And all of a sudden, she's like, it'sover.
What?

(04:31):
So if I asked a thousand people, have youever experienced this exact story?
The answer is going to be no, because it'stoo specific with the sprinkles and the
ducks and all this and that.
Right.
But if I asked the same thousand peoplewho here has ever been dumped?
Everybody gets that.

(04:53):
So that is the universal theme.
And that's what we can do in our storiesand in our songs.
If we can connect that, bam, you willconnect with your audience.
And by the way, it's exactly what TaylorSwift does, right?
She's really, really good at that.
Yeah, she has a knack for little detailsthat say a lot.

(05:20):
I remember one song sticks out where shetalks about like leaving her scarf behind
and just this kind of little detail thatsort of connects you back to a person,
maybe even like intentionally done, youknow, it's almost like the traditional
favor, you know, from going back ages.

(05:40):
But you don't have to have.
left your scarf to get this feeling oflike you want to do something that will
force this person to reach out to youagain.
Yeah, yeah.
Exactly, and it doesn't have to be ascarf, right?
That was her detail, but it could havebeen a hat.
It could have been, I left my phone atyour apartment.

(06:02):
I could gotta get it, you know?
Yeah.
Right.
I remember, I think my wife, when she wasmy girlfriend, left something.
It might have been like a belt or likeboots or something, you know?
Like something, some other article.
And it was like the thing, well, I had toget in touch with her again.

(06:24):
And there's this like kind of excuse I wasalmost thankful for to have to bring up.
You should ask her if that was part of herplot there.
You'll never know.
ask her again now that, uh, you know, shedoesn't have to play games anymore.

(06:45):
right.
But yeah, it's funny.
And you know, it's funny too, is I'mrealizing I was doing this today at my job
as an English teacher.
We just finished reading of Mice and Men.
If you remember that story, George andLenny, and it's the big thing is, well,

(07:06):
that I'm drawing some light on is justthis idea of like an ethical dilemma.
Like what's, sometimes there's no rightthing to do.
And, you know, I guess I won't spoil ofMice and Men for everyone, but the...
George has one of those big ones and hemakes a decision that under any normal
circumstances seems ludicrous, which I'lljust say it, you know, the book's 100

(07:29):
years old, but he shoots his best friend,you know, kills him.
But it sounds crazy that that would be theright thing to do, but the author's
crafted a world where that is actuallyprobably the best thing for everybody,
including his best friend.
And...
You know, none of my students have beenthrough that.
I've never been through that, but we allrelate to that feeling of like, you know,

(07:53):
there's just nothing right.
What do you do here?
And I brought in a Bruce Springsteen song,Highway Patrolman, and he's story, he's a,
you know, like a state trooper and hisbrother gets into trouble.
And eventually, you know, he has to chasedown his brother, but he lets him get away
across the border.
And.

(08:15):
You know, again, like I've never been inthat position, but you get that feeling of
like, you gotta like, you decide to do afavor for somebody.
You have to weigh two different sets ofvalues you hold and make it a choice.
Um, but yeah, it's like nothing to do withthose specifics, but it hits harder

(08:36):
because it's so specific.
Because we've all had difficult choices.
It doesn't matter who you are.
Whether you're on the playground as asixth grader or an adult, there are
difficult choices in the world.
I'm curious about, as far as detail goes,what your thoughts are about how much

(09:01):
detail to give.
Like you didn't tell me much about thesummer camp itself.
You left me to fill that in, which wasfine.
But in the ice cream story, which Iremembered from your book, those sprinkles
stick out.

(09:22):
And that's a detail you could have leftout.
But what makes you decide, I'm going toput this in there and maybe we don't need
to go into this part of it.
Great question.
So you're right.
Many people add too many details thatdon't really matter and sort of detract

(09:44):
from a story or a story.
people of course don't have enoughdetails.
Alright, so the question is what detailsdo you want to add?
And I believe the answer is, first of all,it needs to be relevant.
So in terms of the sprinkles, that was anevocative detail.

(10:06):
When I told you that, I'm not inside yourbrain, but I suspect you're like, oh yeah,
colorful sprinkles on ice cream.
I get that, right?
Yeah, it's fun.
You can almost taste it.
You can see it, right?
It's really powerful.
The pretty girl's got the ice cream.
Oh, that's great, right?
It's like kind of burned into your brain.

(10:26):
But I did...
need to tell you about, you know, theparking lot in the park.
Why does that matter?
Unless it's relevant to the story.
Oh, there were no spaces left so we had topark on the grass.
Okay.
That makes it more adventurous, a littlebit dangerous, something like that.
So what you really want to do is, youknow, consider what the, what are you

(10:51):
trying to say with the story or the lyric?
and then really consider does this add tothe story?
Does it deepen the character or push thenarrative forward?
Mm -hmm.
And if it's not a hell yeah, then it's...

(11:15):
Okay.
So when old Taylor Swift says somethingabout the scarf, there's a reason for that
scarf and that line.
I don't really know what song you'retalking about, but she did it
intentionally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a thoughtful thing.
And I guess the ice cream cone with thesprinkles, that's fun.

(11:38):
Like you said, sweet.
And even this idea of cutting class on anice day or on this bridge.
It sounds like you're setting me up for agood story, a romantic story.
Right.
So that's another piece of thestorytelling.
The unexpected.
Right.
If we get what we expect, it's kind ofboring.

(12:00):
Right.
If I said, oh, so we got the ice cream andwe had this beautiful kiss in the middle
of this day and, you know, everything wasgreat.
Okay.
Nice, but boring.
Right.
You don't see the breakup coming.
And you know, I specifically told it.
So it's like, oh, this is young love andeverything's going great.

(12:23):
Right?
So that's also what we want to do in oursongs and in our lyrics.
Think about how can we not be so obviousabout what we're saying?
We turn the story, the lyric, the line,the word.

(12:44):
Right.
Maybe even a little deliberate misleadingjust to get to the, to set up the shock a
little bit.
Exactly.
So, you know, that's a great point, whichis the stories, your songs that you write,
a lot of times artists and songwritersbelieve that it has to be true, like

(13:05):
factually true.
Don't let the facts get in the way of agood story, of a good line, of a good
chorus.
You're not a historian.
You're not reporting for the Wall StreetJournal or the New York Times or
something.
You're trying to convey some feeling, someidea through your story.

(13:31):
So however you can do that to make itbetter, I say go for it.
Yeah, I agree.
I'd even do that with grammar and thingslike that in lyrics.
Sometimes the lyric fits better if youthrow in a couple extra words or mix up
the structure of the sentence a littlebit.

(13:54):
Absolutely, I was just driving the otherday and...
heard some song with, you know, made upwords.
I'm like, this is perfect.
Why limit yourself to the vocabulary thateverybody else uses?

(14:17):
Right?
Yeah.
mean a lot of singing is just like emotivesounds.
You know, yeah's and ah's and oo's andthings like that.
Right, if it connects with the audience,if it connects first with you and feels
authentic to you and then connects withthe audience, well, that's what you're
trying to do.
You're trying to get the audience, youknow, bobbing their head, jumping around,

(14:41):
throwing shit at the wall, falling inlove, you know, with you, driving fast,
you know, I don't know, like what is itthat you're trying to evoke in your
audience?
I mean, that's a good question to ask anysongwriter to ask themselves.
yeah, the purpose of the song in a way.
What am I trying to get to?

(15:02):
I find that's a really great guidepost isjust emotional impact.
You know, that's a lot of times how I makedecisions mixing even or choosing notes or
whether the song should have a longerverse or not.
Like what's the emotional impact?
I think that's really.
Kind of the whole point of a lot of musicis just to play with the emotions to

(15:25):
create emotions and feelings.
Absolutely, and that's what makessongwriters and musicians, producers, you
know, this kind of magical creatures,right?
We can conjure these emotions and expressthem in ways that the mere mortals kind of
can't.

(15:46):
Right?
You know, the guy or the girl who wants togo out dancing on Saturday night, they get
the vibe, but they can't, they can'tcreate that thump.
They can't, you know, get the room movingby talking about it.
Right?
That's where the music comes in.

(16:07):
We can craft that in a way that affectsthe world.
It's cool.
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of a superpower.
My first musical moment that sticks out tome was being a little kid, probably five
or six, maybe seven, at the most, beingangry about something.

(16:28):
I'm mad, I'm just a rotten little kid andI storm away.
And I put on some music and four minuteslater I felt totally different.
And I came out of my room and I realizedlike, I'm supposed to be mad, you know?
I'm supposed to be angry about something,but I'm not.

(16:49):
And that song did it to me.
And it struck me and I was like, there'ssomething going on here.
This has a power.
Music is medicine, right?
It can change us.
So let me ask you a question.
So do you put on music to alter your mood,like the story you just told me, or do you

(17:09):
typically put it on to match your mood?
I'm feeling happy, so I put on a happysong.
You know, probably more often to matchthese days.
I think it's when it comes on.
somewhere, you know, that I'm not incontrol of the music when it changes me

(17:31):
more.
I think a lot of times when I'm lookingfor something, and this might be why
sometimes I scroll forever looking forlike, what I want to hear today, I can
have anything.
It's too many choices.
How do I feel?
What am I in the mood for?
And sometimes you almost don't even know.
Well, that's a really interesting questionand almost a bigger question.

(17:52):
If we're finding music to fit our mood andour vibe, we have to know what we feel.
Because if we don't, we can't pick theright music, can we?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I run into that a lot now that Iconsider it.
Yeah.
Cause, uh, you know, whatever, if it's anactivity you're doing or just like a time

(18:14):
of day, you know, you can really make someserious mismatches if I'm trying to fall
asleep and some heavy metal comes on, likedoesn't fit.
But.
Sometimes you're not aware exactly ofwhere you want to go or where you are
even.

(18:36):
Yeah, so from the composer's side, soyou're talking about the listener's side
now, but from the composer, thesongwriter's side, that's also a really
interesting question.
Right, I'm going into the studio, or I'mgonna sit there with my notebook and write
some lyrics.
How do I really feel right now?
What's really going on?

(18:57):
this feeling well.
You're making me laugh.
and, yeah, and, you know, in my experienceand really in my clients and, you know,
associates, people that I've worked withover the years, many times we use the
writing process more specifically withlyrics or just words to understand what

(19:20):
we're feeling, to explore what we'refeeling so that we can express what we're
feeling.
feeling and that is what an artist does.
You have to know.
Yet you experience something, youinternalize it, you interpret it, and then

(19:40):
you express it.
Hmm.
Well, that definitely happens too.
Looking back at music I've made, I can seealmost like phases I was going through or
kind of like, oh, I didn't realize thatwas going on.
But you know, maybe down the road, I'mlike, I've been really feeling that way a
lot.
You know, but at the time you kind of, youalmost feel like you're just throwing

(20:04):
things together, picking out words andmelodies and stuff.
but it can be like an interesting selfanalyzing activity to just see what are
you doing?
Yeah, and to do that you really have to bevulnerable with yourself.
You have to be willing to almost go tosometimes, you know, scary or

(20:27):
uncomfortable places within yourself.
I had a poetry teacher, you know, when Iwas in college and she would talk about
the turn of the poem.
What she meant was, we generally start outwriting, we think we know what we're
writing about.
And we start writing, and we write, andthen if you're doing it properly,

(20:52):
somewhere in that poem or in that song,it's gonna shift into something that you
didn't know.
you wrote it.
And that's where the truth of the poem orthe song comes from.
And then from there, of course, you can goback and, you know, iterate on it.

(21:14):
I don't even know.
I hear no strange clicking noise.
I kind of ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta.
Do you hear that?
It just started.
Let me just make sure.

(21:36):
I'm going to mute.
Yeah, not here.
Um, let me also look at something.
my internet.
usually stops pretty quickly.
Is it still there?

(21:57):
Yeah.
It almost sounds like a person tapping ona keyboard, like a computer keyboard.
Yeah, no, it's very, it's rhythmic.
Sample it, man, like, you might have achance.
yeah, we're recording it now.

(22:17):
I wonder if there's anything we could doabout that.
Gone.
Whatever you did there was perfect.
Let me just make a note of that.
Kind of just came in for a second and thenwent away.

(22:42):
Okay.
All right, we'll go with it.
Seems good.
All right.
It's an interesting way to learn aboutyourself through what you write.
But you got to show up, I guess, for thatkind of stuff, right?
You can't just like think about it andhope it comes to you.

(23:03):
You sort of have to go through the processof putting the words to the paper or
playing the notes, playing the music.
I think there's sort of like a travelingthrough the weeds or the tall grass forest
kind of period.
Absolutely.
Yeah, and you know, that's why you kind ofcan't rush the creative process.

(23:27):
A lot of people sort of think like, I'mgonna just bust this thing out.
Well, you can do it if you've got theskills, I suppose.
But that doesn't mean you're gonna reallytap in.
Anybody can just write some chords, okay,fine.
But can you find the chords?
Can you feel the chords?

(23:49):
Because if you can't feel them, nobodyelse is gonna.
Right.
Yeah, that's an interesting point.
And this is a balance I'm trying to figureout, I guess, on some levels too.
Because I do like moving fast.
I think not overly considering too manydecisions, going through it, not getting

(24:13):
stuck in endless options.
And I think that's the real problem,there's just too many choices.
We have so many tools these days.
But, um,
Sometimes you can blow past the phase ofsearching through things a little bit in
the interest of charging to the finishline.

(24:35):
Sure.
a challenging balance to strike.
Sometimes there's a lot of value in topspeed and sometimes it's good to pull back
a little too.
Exactly.
I mean, one of the biggest problems, Iwould say, I mean, it's like a blessing

(24:56):
and a curse kind of thing, is there areliterally infinite choices in a decent
recording studio at this point.
In a laptop, in your freaking phone.
I mean, one of the stories I used to tellmy songwriting students when I was
teaching at the college,
You know, now you've got like the guitaramp emulators.

(25:20):
Right?
So you can get one of these things andthere's like a million sounds.
You just plug the guitar in and just like,you can change it afterwards, this and
that.
It reminds me, the opposite of thatreminds me of a story with Led Zeppelin.
So one of their albums, they rented, Isuppose, a castle in England somewhere.
And they're like, we gotta get a coolguitar sound.

(25:43):
And they're like, I don't know, whatshould we do?
They ended up sticking an amp in achimney.
in the fireplace and pointing it up thechimney and they had a guy at the top with
a microphone down the chimney.
Right?
Well, number one, awesome story, right?

(26:03):
Number two, right?
But I mean, you can still do somethinglike that, you know, minus the castle, I
suppose, you know, but these days,
producers, songwriters, they don't reallythink like that.
They think a lot more like, well, it'sjust easier to kind of dial through these

(26:24):
million sounds.
And it is, it's definitely easier, but itdoesn't mean it's better.
You know?
Yeah.
And that's, that's a decision, right?
That's a choice to go through the troubleof getting someone to climb up on the top
of a castle.
Who knows how high that was.
And there's, there's something thathappens, I think too, when you kind of

(26:48):
commit to an idea, you, you sort of becomea little bit loyal to it and you, and you
appreciate it more.
Where, where's yeah, I have AmpliTube.
I love it.
It's great.
You know, and I, but.
I'm always kind of wondering if the nextsound is a little better.
You know, and then maybe I star one that Ilike and then I'll just keep seeing.

(27:10):
But if it's like just my amp, I've got twodecent guitar amps, one or the other and
go, or if I take the trouble to set it upin the castle's chimney, then it's like,
we got to use that.
Yeah, I got one chimney, kind of one shotat doing it right.
And.

(27:30):
You know, we gotta use that one, juststick it in there somewhere.
Exactly.
If nothing else, let's put it this way, 50years later we're talking about it.
Nobody's going to be talking about whichdial you changed on AmpliTube, you know
what I mean?
So again, stories, right?
That's the story of Led Zeppelin's guitarsound.

(27:51):
That's cool, right?
Where we lose so much of that when it'sjust software and a million patches and
tweaks and stuff like that.
I almost want to, you know, go to someartist and be like, okay, you can't use
any of this shit.
Right?
Like make a record like it's 1975.

(28:14):
See what you can do.
Don't rely on all this.
Yeah.
It's, it's a fun process.
I have a eight track reel to reel machinejust over here on the side.
And with my band, we have everything setup.
It is going through the computer.
Stuff's getting processed, but then I justrun it right to the tape machine.

(28:38):
So we got the drum sounding nice.
And then those went to two tracks on themachine and then everything else went
right to the machine.
And it was so much fun.
And.
It moved really fast.
And yeah, all of those choices like, youknow, which compressor, which of the, it
was like, no, just we got to get it soundas good as we can.

(29:00):
And I really enjoyed that limitedstreamlined process where there just
wasn't as much to think about.
So we were forced to get creative in likeother ways, you know, microphone
placements and, you know, we didn't usethe chimney.
I didn't think of that, but.
give me a call when you got that going on,man.

(29:20):
right.
But it leads you into those moreadventurous situations.
Then, well, you know, we've got a reallycool reverb plug -in.
We probably could sound like it.
It should probably sound betterobjectively, but, you know.
in the day, I was doing a recording and weended up getting one of those like
aluminum trash cans.

(29:43):
You know, those like old, right?
And we, what did we do?
We like stuck the, stuck the kick drum micin there.
You know, it's like stuff like this.
It's just so much more fun.
Really.
It's a different way to be creative.
Yeah.
happens if.

(30:05):
How can we mess with the sound or create asound that is really unique?
Even if it's like sampling and stuff likethat.
Go find and record in the world reallyweird sounds.
Then come back and make a beat out of it.

(30:27):
I think that's a lot of fun.
It is a, I don't know, yeah.
You know, we, again, we have access toeverything.
Pretty much every drum sound you canimagine, even like the John Bonham kit,
you know, that that's out there somewhere.
But yeah, the random things you'll collecton a walk through the park today, even

(30:48):
compared to tomorrow or a week from now,that's a unique, interesting collection
that only you could get.
And then how you process it and deal withit is also another layer of putting it
through your own filter machine of yourmind and creativity.

(31:10):
Yeah, yeah, that stuff is fun.
One of the ones I remember from years agowas I always liked the sound of striking a
match where the match kind of explodesthere for a second, fizzes, yeah.
So I just remember sitting there in theapartment, like lighting all these matches

(31:32):
in front of the microphone.
Trying not to burn the apartment down,yes.
Yeah.
But a cool thing, you know?
Like cool.
See what happens.
A lot of stages to that sound now that Ithink about it.
There's the kind of swipe, and it kind ofpops and then sizzles a little bit.

(31:56):
Yeah.
How so?
Was it like percussion or something else?
it with percussion.
So I think I used it like in a drum fillwhere, you know, maybe pieces of the
strike were kind of coordinated with.

(32:20):
Right.
Yeah, that's fun.
And again, like interesting story.
There are a few things, you know, when Ithink back the, of all the music I've
done, it's always those kind ofadventurous little things that stick out.
You know, the thousandth time I've pluggedmy guitar directly into my interface and

(32:41):
uploaded a preset or something.
They don't really stand out much.
Maybe the first time when I was like, wow,like listen to all these sounds I got.
But other than that, it's useful.
It's nice to have, but you can definitelybring a little, you know, sass to your
music that way and a little story.

(33:02):
almost makes me, so you know, as acreativity coach, life coach, I'm always
like thinking like, how can we do thingsdifferently?
How can we change stuff?
So like, how about this for a studioproject.
Create a song and make as many storiesaround the creation of the song as you

(33:26):
can.
So it's not really about the song, it'sabout the stories of making the song.
So like I said, striking the match orputting the guitar amp in the chimney.
Like what else could you maniacs out therecome up with?
How many stories?
What could you do on the street?

(33:47):
What could you do, like this Seattle bandfrom years ago, the presidents of the USA.
Hell yeah.
Sure.
Lump and Peaches, yeah.
It was a fun band.
Yeah, fun band.
They're like, we don't wanna play regularguitars and basses.
So they kinda like made like it was onebass string and you know, something like

(34:10):
this.
a three string guitar with like a bassstring and a couple.
Yeah, it was pretty interesting.
Very minimal band.
Even the drum kit, I think was just like akick and a snare and a high.
but interesting stories.
So, you know, studio musicians out thereor live players out there, maybe your next

(34:33):
song could be how many stories can youcreate in writing and recording this
thing?
And please email me and tell me thembecause I'm psyched already.
Yeah, I think I'm going to borrow thatbecause I started doing these weekly
prompts for songwriting, the weekly musicmission, and that would be a good one.

(34:56):
You know, just...
yeah, I'll totally give me a call when youget some of these going.
I definitely want to hear about this.
Oh yeah.
I mean, that's, you know, what I likeabout that too is I just felt it happen in
my mind where I stopped getting concernedabout almost the, really the outcome, but
musical stuff, you know, and I don't know,maybe this is part of my own musical

(35:21):
insecurity where I feel like I need tokind of always do something clever.
Like, is this smart enough?
Am I doing something interesting here withthe
chords or whatever it is, even though mostof the music I listened to was pretty
straightforward.
But taking it, the focus to like, oh,maybe I'll like, you know, the bathtub

(35:44):
resonates kind of funny when you bang itwith something like that's, I'm going to
use that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now I'm not, it's almost like I'm notresponsible.
You know, I'm, I'm doing all theseexperiments and I'm
letting those things decide how the musiccomes out a little bit.

(36:04):
Yeah.
And it, it, you know, so I used to be amusic journalist when I first moved to
Seattle in the nineties.
I was a music journalist for the radiostation.
I'll say the radio station that brokegrunge music to the world.
And we were working on a little thing atthe time.
We weren't sure if it was going to happen.
It was called a web site.

(36:26):
Yes, it turned out to be caught on.
So as.
I did not invent it, but I did show upearly.
So as a music journalist, it was alwaysabout the story of the band.
How can I write about a band in aninteresting way?
Having a radio single, that's not a story.

(36:50):
Who cares?
Right?
Sometimes the lyrics of the songs, if theywere good, had a story, but the really
interesting stories were things that theband was doing.
So for instance, one that I particularlyremember, there was a band called Bicycle,
and these are three guys, and I shit younot, they were really into bikes, and they

(37:15):
somehow got their whole little...
set of instruments and stuff onto bikes.
They biked across the country with theirequipment, playing music.
Like, it's insane.
They got into Time magazine with that.
And it was not because they were a greatband.
It was because they were biking across thecountry.

(37:37):
It's a great story.
Right?
So it makes me, you know, everybody's likesearching for attention, you know, online
and everything like that.
You gotta have a great story.
What's your story?
What's interesting about you?
Nope, you know, quite frankly, we've heardall the beats, you know, this and that.

(38:00):
It's all, you know, it might be good, butit's all, you know, there's millions of
songs out there.
What's your story around it?
Yeah, and there's so much great music too.
I mean, even just the great stuff youcould never listen to that comes out.
I read somewhere that like 120 ,000 songsget uploaded to streaming every day.

(38:23):
Oh good God.
I was doing the math and that's like somemillions of songs per year, you know, to
listen to those, if those were like twominutes each, you'd be doing it for 200
years to get through this one year or oneday or something crazy, you know?
But that's, I guess, where it matters, youknow, because which band am I going to

(38:50):
listen to?
Which song am I going to listen to whenthey're all, I've got to...
lot of great songs to choose from.
But let me hear the guys that bicycleacross the country.
Yeah, what's their deal?
Right?
Or another great thing that you can do asa musician to kind of create a story

(39:12):
around you is to think about what youreally believe in.
What do you really care about outside ofyourself?
Is it the environment?
Is it some political cause?
Is it something like this?
How can you attach your ideas to somethingbigger and support or express around that?

(39:37):
And when you do that, you can see plentyof examples where this works quite well.
in getting attention and telling storiesand creating stories.
Yeah, it's a great thing to think about.
And that's an interesting aspect too, fromthe journalist perspective to sort of help

(39:58):
them, help you kind of, right?
because I'll tell you what, 99 % of themusicians and producers out there are not.
Hmm.
Yeah.
they're just like, here's my stuff.
They're like, okay.
that's not enough.
It's not enough.

(40:20):
Sadly.
And you know, when you're talking aboutthe uploads to the streamers and stuff,
back in the 90s when we're still makingrecords on tape, I was making an album
with a band called Tumble here in Seattle.
And you know, I was all into the music bizand stuff.
And I remember reading back in the late90s before computers came in with all

(40:43):
this.
There were something like 20 ,000independent albums released in a year in
the US compared to, what do you say, 120,000 songs a day.
So that's how much the market has changed.
Right.

(41:04):
Yeah, I guess it was a little harder backthen.
was a lot harder and a lot more expensive.
Yeah, my high school band, we recordedfour songs and put it on CD by the time
like right about when we graduated justbefore and that was a big deal for kids
like us, you know in 1998 to have a CD.

(41:29):
A year or two later, it made nodifference, you know, it wasn't and it
wasn't enough to make a difference foranyone but our friends really.
Like anyone outside
that was actually into music, into themusic industry at all, it was like, had
seen billions of CDs.
It was no longer a feather in your cap,but as a kid at that age it was, but that

(41:51):
went away really fast.
A year later, it didn't matter, everyonehad them.
But it's something that I think about alittle bit with AI and generative music,
that that's never gonna have the story.
Well, maybe if someone will figure out away, but I've said this before, if I'm

(42:12):
repeating myself to everyone, sorry, butAI music is not gonna make me wear ripped
jeans in finals like I did when I was 14and Nirvana came out.
That was like a thing, like, oh, this iscool.
This is...
of rejection of something that's beenforced down our throats that we didn't

(42:32):
really like anyway.
So you latched onto it.
But the idea of like, kind of just likefabricated stuff, which I mean, a lot of
music has felt that way already anyway,even with artists behind it, but more so
now like, who cares?
It's kind of the feeling.

(42:55):
Well, I mean, it's interesting becausemusicians are always going to keep making
music.
Okay, fine.
But the business of music, it's a businessand they want to do everything as cheaply
and as profitably as they can.
So if you can buy a computer...
use some software or whatever and create apop star where you don't have to pay them,

(43:16):
they don't have to, you know, they're notgonna have to go to rehab in the middle of
the tour, you know, all this kind ofstuff.
You can guarantee it's gonna happen,right, from the business side.
It's only a matter of time.
They've already done stuff like that inJapan and maybe Korea and things.
Yeah.
at a rapper too that really kind ofbackfired and didn't go too well.

(43:39):
But these are the first efforts.
But the human heartbeat is definitely atthe core of what music is.
The AI is going to be able to emulate thatsonically.
It can play a synthesizer or now evenguitar parts.

(44:01):
I don't know if you saw that in RollingStone.
There's some company that, this is readyto go.
It's almost ready for prime time wheresomebody on an app is just going to be
able to...
to a text prompt, the one that they saidin Rolling Stone was something like, play
an acoustic Mississippi blues guitar withan old male singer singing about whatever.

(44:28):
And it happened.
I saw that.
That was pretty crazy.
And I would have never known that wasn'treal.
And even sounded like an old recording,you know, had like that flavor.
Yeah, that's, like you said, it is prettymuch ready for prime time.
Yeah, so musicians out there, get yourstories together and get your live show

(44:52):
happening because recorded music is, it'salready a tough deal.
It's gonna be a lot tougher.
for real, we gotta do that.
Get it together.
So how do we tell a good story?
How do we tell a good story?
I guess, the hero's journey.

(45:13):
It's a decent place to start.
Do you want to get into that for anyonethat's not familiar?
yeah.
Yeah.
So the Hero's Journey is a sort oftemplate of storytelling created by Joseph
Campbell.
He was a guy who studied all these mythsfrom around the world and kind of came up

(45:34):
with this idea of what the Hero's Journeyis.
And essentially, it is, it starts withyour hero and they're living their normal
life.
whatever's happening.
And then something happens in their life,which in the hero's journey they call the
call to adventure, where it's like, hmm,is the hero going to choose to step

(45:58):
forward into this adventure?
And then the answer is yes, right?
The hero has to go on the adventure forthe story to happen.
And by the way, this is a good thing toremember in your...
actual personal life.
Right?
Your stories are going to get better ifyou choose the adventure.

(46:20):
If you don't choose the adventure, it'sgoing to, you're never going to change.
You're never going to.
Good point.
of yourself.
So anyway, you choose the adventure andthis is where things get difficult.
Right?
You have some goal that you're after andyou're gonna come up against challenges.

(46:41):
They're gonna get worse and worse, biggerand bigger.
You're gonna encounter allies and enemiesalong the way.
And then eventually...
is the breakthrough.
And the breakthrough is the shift between,on two levels.
One is the external and the other is theinternal.

(47:03):
And when both of these switch, thecharacter changes and they return to the
world, a different world, a new world.
They bring something back that isdifferent and valuable.
And this is essentially the hero'sjourney.
Might sound complicated, but it's reallynot that complicated.

(47:23):
It just simply means we have to moveforward, both in our personal lives and
let's say in your song lyrics, and choosedifficult things and get past them and
then we'll...
change in the internal world and external.

(47:44):
Let's take Star Wars, the first Star Wars,which is a good example because basically
everybody knows it.
So the external change, well first of allthe call to adventure, Luke gets, you
know, the droids show up and you know,here's Ben Kenobi, right, and he's like,
oh what the hell is going on here?

(48:04):
That's the call to adventure and then he'sgot to leave his home.
small planet.
He's like, I gotta get out of here.
Call to adventure.
All kinds of crazy stuff happens.
Blah, blah, blah.
Kind of gets to the climax, the very edge,which is they're shooting down the Death
Star.
And he's got one shot left.

(48:24):
And what does he do?
He turns the freaking scope off.
Right?
So that's an internal change.
He's like, I believe in the Force.
I believe it.
I got one chance and I believe it.
Makes no sense, but he does it.
And then he hits the target and bam, savesthe day.
That's the external change.

(48:46):
Right?
So these are sort of the elements ofstory.
Can you condense that into a couple ofverses and a chorus?
Sure.
You can do it.
You just have to know what your story isand you gotta move forward with that in
some way that shows the change and showsthe challenge.

(49:11):
Yeah.
that's a funny format too, because it justshows up everywhere.
This idea of like the hero, they oftenreject it at first.
They're not sure.
All that self -doubt.
You're right, even when it's like a bigbad guy, a Darth Vader evil villain that
they have to overcome, there's alwayssomething internal that has to happen as

(49:36):
well.
Exactly.
And the reason why this is such a powerfultemplate in storytelling, or in
songwriting, is because it is adistillation of our lives.
Right?
We're all, just like what you're talkingabout before, we're all going to have
specific details to our lives.
No one...

(49:57):
lives the exact same life as anybody else.
It's impossible.
Right?
But we also have similar themes.
These are themes of trust and respect andmaking a living for yourself and love and
healing and like all these big things thatevery human encounters in one way or
another.
So that's why this template sort of workswith everything.

(50:20):
And your job as a storyteller is well,what kind of stories do you want to tell?
And how do you...
tell them with craft and style.
One of the ones that I, or a couple that Iused again in my songwriting classes, and
this is gonna date me even further, butJack and Diane, you know, John Cougar

(50:43):
Mellencamp, right, he's talking aboutthese high school kids having these dreams
and then the chorus says, you know, lifegoes on even after the thrill of living is
gone.
He's like, whoa, that's like...
some wisdom, you know, it sort of impliesthat the youth is not going to last, which
it doesn't for anybody.

(51:05):
Or another great one, you know, don't stopbelieving, journey.
You know, just a small town girl living ina lonely world.
Right?
There's a story for you.
Don't stop believing that pushes itforward, like you got to keep going.
too, because when that comes on, everybodyrelates to it.

(51:28):
City girls, guys, like they all relate tothis idea.
You don't have to be a small town girl,you know?
It's fascinating and I've looked at thissong and I'll try to remember it here
without screwing it up.
Small town girl in a lonely world takingthe midnight train, she's gotta get out.
City boy in South Detroit, he's gotta getout.

(51:53):
So in those two freaking lines, you'retalking about men and women, rural and
urban.
That's everybody.
In two lines.
Like you want to write a classic song, dothat.
Yeah, it is.
It still amazes me that that song stillstrikes people so hard, but you can

(52:17):
understand, you know, that, like you said,the universal themes are really what we're
going at.
That's where we connect.
You know, our different stories are justkind of like our own paths, but we all
wind up in that, whether it's loss or loveor victory or defeat.

(52:38):
We all get a taste.
Right?
Yeah.
who hasn't thought about that?
Am I lucky?
Am I a loser?
Am I destined for this?
Are greater things like going to be mine?
Anybody who's got a freaking brain.

(53:00):
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
So in your workshops, are you gettingpeople, I believe you do like exercises to
generate ideas and get started.
Anything interesting you think might beuseful to the musicians, songwriters out
there?
Well, I love the idea that we came up withbefore, which is create a song based on

(53:23):
the stories of creating the song.
I think that's cool.
What else could you do?
A lot of your audience is aroundproduction.
Yes, music production.
What emotion are you feeling?

(53:46):
What is authentic to you?
And how can you create or capture thatsound?
Right?
So instead of, you know, dialing throughAmpliTube or one of these things.
Okay, I'm feeling, I'm feeling angry.
I'm gonna take my little field recorderand go smash shit in the alley.

(54:09):
Interesting.
Right?
Very different way to approach it.
Like this whole thing is, you know, it'sabout creativity, it's about expression.
But we often tend to...
you know, kind of express in a similarway.
Like maybe here's one.
Come up with ideas, write down words.

(54:31):
Just write down a whole list of words,verbs, you know, adjectives, nouns,
whatever you want.
Once you have this, pick one and then gofind or create a sound for that.
Right?
The word is flower.
Okay, go find or make the sound of aflower.

(54:56):
What the hell is that gonna be?
I don't know.
But, you know, that's your job.
You're the creative here.
Yeah, that's cool.
I think lots of different results.
yeah, different results.
This kind of thing reminds me of that carddeck that Brian Eno made years ago to
stimulate creativity.

(55:17):
It's basically just like, forget all thethings you think you know about what
you're doing and force yourself intosomething really weird.
Like one of the things he...
he would say with bands is, okay, you'rethe guitar player, you're playing drums.
What?
You know, you play bass, you're singing.

(55:38):
Wait, what?
Yeah, let's just see what happens.
Flipping around, stuff like that.
Play it left handed, play the guitar lefthanded.
It's one of my favorite times of all myband practices is when I get to play the
drums for a little while.
You know, a lot of our ideas are born outof that actually too, which is kind of

(55:59):
funny.
But we've had a couple songs get developedout of those jams.
There's something, even like, I usuallyhave the mic as well when I'm playing and
you sing rhythmically when you're hittingdrums, you know, I kind of like.
Very staccato and it makes things come outof me in a different way.

(56:24):
You know, when you're just blabbering andjamming.
Right, so that's, you know, that's anothergateway to different kind of creativity
and it's also a story.
Right?
What if you play the keyboard with onehand?
What if you taped two of your fingerstogether and did it?
You know?

(56:44):
This is like, something weird's gonnahappen.
You know, they say Jerry Garcia inGrateful Dead, he somehow lost one of his
fingers.
Did it?
he was a kid.
Yeah, I mean this guy's like one of thegreatest guitar players around.
And you know, it's like, yeah, he'smissing a finger.

(57:05):
Hmm, is it possible that he came up withweird different cool stuff because he just
didn't have that finger?
Yeah, I'm sure.
Right?
Like, I would play different if I didn'thave, I guess.
Hmm.
That must be like his, uh, picking hand, Iguess.
I don't know.

(57:28):
Yeah.
Well, even, you know, like you said, thedon't let the truth get in the way of a
good story is a great example of, uh, um,what that, that does, you know?
Like now I'm going to look into that.
I want to know what's that story.
Well, the, uh, who was it as the likefinger famous guitarist?

(57:50):
I can't think of his name right now.
Metal.
Get the fingertips.
Uh, geez, isn't it black Sabbath guitarplayer?
Um, uh, I don't know why this is slippingmy mind, but he's missing his fingertips.
He's got these like kind of things.
little metal fingertips.

(58:14):
Yeah, I'll have to, I'm drawing a blank onit right now.
Yeah, don't tell me something weird.
That sounds true.
I agree.
There's something that you put in that Ithink sums up a lot of what you're saying.
This is a line from your book where yousay you want to intersect your personal

(58:36):
perspective with the universal themes ofhuman experience.
And I think that's a lot of what we'regetting at here is how to see...
Sometimes that's hard to see, I guess,too, like how your own person...
Like what you said to me just about likeme...
a band switching around and playing thedrums, like there's the story.

(58:58):
Didn't occur to me as like being storyworthy.
So that's a, it's a great thing to keep inmind that we're all having that in all of
our experience that we're all goingthrough these universal things, but
sometimes you have to almost step back andrecognize it.

(59:19):
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
I wanted to ask you a little bit aboutthis idea of golden repair.
You spoke a bit about the book.
And there was a Japanese term for thatthat I didn't put down, but how do you say

(59:40):
that?
Kintsugi.
Kintsugi, it's a Japanese term for goldenrepair and it refers to mending something
and it becomes more beautiful in that itscharacter has sort of been broken and put

(01:00:03):
apart, put together again.
So, you know, the typical...
image of this is like, you know, thisbeautiful handmade vase that gets, you
know, cracked down the side, a couple ofpieces come flying off.
So they put it together with seams ofgold, right?
And you look at this thing, you're like,wow, it's even more beautiful because it's

(01:00:25):
not perfect.
Right?
So that's a, that's a term in Japanese.
And when I heard this, I'm like, wow.
That's cool for a bunch of vases, but it'seven cooler for us as humans because we
are all, we all get battered and crackedand sometimes broken through the course of

(01:00:47):
our lives.
And then the question is, what are wegoing to do with that?
Right?
If we do not heal ourselves, well, or,
attempt to heal ourselves, well it's gonnaget worse, right?
Your heart's gonna break, you're gonnaquit, you're gonna whatever, it can go
really south.
But on the other hand, when we healourselves, when we go through that hero's

(01:01:10):
journey, we become more beautiful.
The seams of gold are within our hearts,within our souls, you know, that kind of
thing, right?
When you understand how precious love is,
You know, because your heart's beenbroken, you're going to treat it, you're
going to see it in a very different way.
Stuff like this.

(01:01:30):
So in the book and, and you know, here,like how are, how are we as individuals
broken or have been damaged and how canwe, how can we heal that?
How can we mend that?
And then how can we express that in astory?
Because again,

(01:01:51):
You know, universal themes, right?
Everybody's got it.
You can't find one human in life who'snever been damaged and hurt.
It's not gonna happen.
Right.
Those are usually very formativeexperiences too.
They make you who you are.
And it's a good point.
I think that's probably the benefit ofgetting your heart broken, right?

(01:02:15):
Because then you realize how fresh,precious and fragile things are.
And you maybe play a little more carefullynext time or more gently.
But it changes you.
and how you approach things.
But there's some of that too, even in someof the things we have.

(01:02:38):
Like you get like that ding on your guitarat your concert.
You're kind of like, yeah, it's kind ofcool.
It's got some character now.
It's like, yeah, you want to keep thatthing in beautiful shape if you can.
But you can look at that and be like,yeah, it was the time we played whatever.
It's a crazy day.

(01:02:59):
I was in college, this is a great one, oneof my early recording stories, in college
in a studio, guitar player, this amazingguitar player, I was playing bass, and
playing the song, it's a rock song, he'skind of doing the solo, and in the middle
of the solo, his guitar shorts out.

(01:03:19):
And he literally bangs it with his, hesmacks it with his hand and it comes on in
this like sort of jarring thing and thenhe just starts playing again.
And we're done and I'm like, you know,let's do it again.
He's like, no, I listened to this, youknow, 35 years later.
I'm like, oh my God, that's so beautiful.
right.
again, it's the story.

(01:03:40):
It reminds me of, like, we're in there,it's so exciting, the equipment's not
working, you know, bam, but we pull itoff.
Yeah, that's a good point.
And that, of all the guitars you've doneand recorded, you know, that's one that
sticks out.

(01:04:00):
It's got that thing that happened to it.
And you could polish that away easyenough, but...
Oh, especially now.
Oh yeah.
I had a job many years ago.
sorry.
I think it, okay.
That was it.
Just wanted to, yeah, just wanted tocontribute, I guess.

(01:04:21):
I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
years ago, I had a job, a great job, I'vehad some great jobs in the music biz.
This one was reviewing what they used tocall in print catalog albums.
So not new stuff, but things that werestill selling.

(01:04:44):
So I went to my boss, this was for thisearly internet thing, and he's like, come
up with 100 of these albums and you can goreview them.
So I looked through my collection and Icame back with 300.
And this is stuff like The Beatles and TheStones and Zeppelin and Billy Joel and Tom
Petty and it's like all this stuff.

(01:05:04):
It's like so great.
And it's still selling.
So, so the job was, I spent like sixmonths listening, listening to these
albums and reviewing them.
I've heard them all a million times, butwhen I listen to them, I'm like, wow,
there are full on errors in a lot of thesesongs.

(01:05:28):
Right?
The beat's a little off, like clearly off.
The guitar doesn't quite catch it.
Right?
But these are the classic songs.
This is, if you fixed it, it would soundweird.
Right?
So again, kintsugi.
Right?
It makes it more human.
And by the way, the flip side of this iswhat all the digital recording is screwing

(01:05:50):
with.
Right?
You can make it perfect.
So almost everybody does.
Right?
And then you lose that humanity.
And now you've got, of course, your...
sort of screw with the quantization humaneyes or whatever, right?
Make it perfect and then make it notperfect.

(01:06:11):
You're like, okay, great.
Which I do love that you can do that, butyeah, it's a tricky thing.
I think, especially if you're workingalone to know where that line is, you
know, cause you're trying to be emotionaland expressive, but you're also trying to

(01:06:31):
get it right.
Sometimes it's just nice to have somebodysay like, no, no, no, no, no, don't record
over that.
Keep that.
Well, it reminds me of that Beatles song,Twist and Shout, you know, one of their
old songs.
John's voice is like destroyed on thatsong.
And they're like, it sounds awesome.

(01:06:54):
They're like, we're keeping it.
They were singing all day.
He was singing all day.
That was like the last song they did.
And if they would have recorded it, youknow, if they would have done a better
version the next week, it wouldn't havebeen better.
yeah, that like wear and tear comesthrough.
It's just raw and emotional.

(01:07:17):
Yeah, that's how emotions are, you know?
You're crying and there's snot coming outof your nose and like, you know, your face
is all messed up, but that's how it is.
You know, it's not pretty.
not pretty, just make sure you got theright level on that mic.
right.
It's a funny thing.

(01:07:39):
I want to thank you for something you putin my head that stuck with me for a while.
It was about the inner critic.
When we were talking about your last book,which was that not to fight it.
I don't know if that was in the book ornot, but it was something you said.
But not to fight it, I almost see it aslike a collaborator.

(01:08:03):
I think it's a...
It is a collaborator.
It just doesn't look like one.
It's a collaborator in disguise.
The reason we all have our inner critic,right?
You suck, you're not good enough, blah,blah, blah, all that kind of stuff.
We've all heard it, right?
Full -time little bitch in there, right?

(01:08:26):
But the truth is that part of ourselves isthere for a reason and the reason is
positive.
The reason is to help us get better.
When we feed the inner critic withnegativity, you know, shut up inner
critic, you know, like that kind of stuff.

(01:08:47):
All it really does is give it energy.
and then it's louder and you feel worseabout yourself, et cetera, et cetera.
So the trick is you surprise this littlebugger first by naming it, you know, I
like to call mine Mr.
Craptacular, the Craptacular babbler,right?

(01:09:09):
And then you love it.
Thank you for these thoughts.
I don't really want to hear it right now,so I'll let you know when I want to hear
it.
And suddenly these sort of internal piecesstart to align in a different way.
When you get that going, you can use thisenergy more for your goals, whatever they

(01:09:35):
happen to be.
It's a cool way to think about it becausewe can over identify with those thoughts.
And what you're really doing is justalmost just compartmentalizing it and
identifying it as these are just thoughtsI'm having.
It's, and by giving it this like kind ofcantankerous personality, you can, okay, I

(01:10:01):
hear you, but we're not going to payattention to this right now.
We're going to.
go somewhere else with their thoughtshere.
Exactly, except for one tweak on what yousaid.
We're not compartmentalizing it.
We're integrating it.
Right?
When it's the other, when it's outside ofyourself, that's when it gets the power.
And that's when it screws you up.

(01:10:23):
When it's like, oh, you are a part of meand you're trying to help me.
Come here, friend.
Right?
That's really different.
It loses its power.
Its negative power.
Hmm.
Almost like collaborating with a group ofpeople and there's one that's always going

(01:10:43):
to say, ugh, I don't like it.
But it is a valuable perspective to hearsometimes.
I guess that really saves us a lot ofdangers in the real world, stops us from
doing stupid things.

(01:11:05):
Sometimes, I guess, making fools ofourselves too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, it's like the inner criticis part of us.
It's never going away, right?
But how can we relate to it in a differentway that is more valuable and useful for
us and what we want and how we feel?

(01:11:25):
Yeah.
It's an important thing and it's stuckwith me.
You know, since we've spoke, I've thoughtabout that a lot just in like, when it
comes up to just, okay, that's, so it'stime for you to speak up.
Okay.
Thanks for your input.
Right.
Maybe later.

(01:11:47):
Yeah.
Right.
Yes.
Well, cool.
So the book is called The Magical Impactof Storytelling.
Jeff Lysowitz.
It's available anywhere, right?
Amazon, you can find this.
would be the place to be but yeah, you canprobably get it anywhere.

(01:12:10):
So we can send people there and I think wecan also send them to your website too.
You should definitely send them to mywebsite, where I would be more than happy
to do a complimentary coaching sessionwith people.
Yeah, I mean, I help people all over theworld on Zoom, all kinds of creatives,

(01:12:31):
musicians, you know, rock stars, which Ican't really name here.
screenwriters, advertising people,authors, podcasters, really anybody.
So in the creative process, in thebusiness aspects, really, I mean, I've
kind of been around, let's put it thatway.

(01:12:52):
So I'd be happy to talk to anybody.
Just sign up on the website and find thetime and yeah.
incredibly generous of you.
Very nice.
Cool.
That's at JeffLizowitz .com.
Those links will be in the show notes.
I appreciate you coming back and sharingword of the book.

(01:13:13):
It was a great read.
It's nice and you can read it in a day andan afternoon.
I like that, by the way, more and morethings distilled down.
Mm -hmm.
I mean, I'm sure you're obviously atalented enough writer if you wanted to
really stretch this out into some giganticthing, but you really get down to the

(01:13:35):
point, which I appreciate a lot because Iwant to act, you know, act on this stuff,
not just keep reading about it.
So more and more, even like my samplepacks, I like them smaller.
I like fewer choices, less to go throughso I can get things going.
So I think you did a really nice jobdistilling a lot of

(01:13:56):
really helpful and encouraging ideas thatare inspiring at the end of the day.
You know, finish that book, you're like,okay, let's do it.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Well, thanks for coming on the show.
Thank you, the listener.
It's great to have you here and we hopeyou have a great day.
Yeah, rock on.

(01:14:18):
God.
Awesome, man.