December 4, 2024 • 28 mins
Heritage sites like the medieval palace Bayt Al Razzaz in Egypt and the picturesque Blickling estate in the UK, are under threat from climate change.
What connects these vastly different places? And what can the guardians of these historic treasures learn from each other as they battle extreme weather, social upheaval and other challenges?
Discover the global fight to protect our heritage.
You can watch a video of this podcast on National Trust Youtube:
https://ntpodcasts.org/Video
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Production
Host: James Grasby and Jesse Edbrooke
Producers: Jesse Edbrooke
Sound Design: Jesus Gomez
Further Information
INTO - The International National Trusts Organisation
https://www.into.org/
Withstanding Climate Change
https://www.into.org/withstanding-change-project/
Blickling and Bayt Al Razzaz in partnership
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/visit/norfolk/blickling-estate/blickling-estate-twins-with-bayt-al-razzaz-in-cairo
If you'd like to get in touch with feedback, or have a story connected with the National Trust, you can contact us at podcasts@nationaltrust.org.uk
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Open the door to more with aNational Trust membership. As
well as free entry and parkingat over 500 places we care for,
you'll receive access to ouronline members area full of
exclusive member-only content, ayearly handbook packed with
visit inspiration, and ouraward-winning member magazine
three times a year. To find outmore, visit
(00:23):
nationaltrust.org.uk/become-a-m-ember.
Hello and welcome to thisepisode of the National Trust
Podcast. I'm James Grasby,curator of buildings and
(00:45):
historic landscapes for theTrust. Join me as we compare two
remarkable estates that are atrisk. The picturesque Blickling
Estate in Norfolk, England, andthe enchanting former palace
Bayt al-Razzaz in the heart ofCairo, Egypt.
We will meet the inspiringpeople who are responsible for
protecting these culturaltreasures from destruction
(01:06):
through extreme weather eventsand political and social
upheaval. Prepare to fly 4,000miles from the UK to one of the
historical centres of theArab-Speaking world in Cairo.
Telling the story is producerJesse Edbrooke.
The flight time is about fourand a half hours from London
(01:28):
Heathrow. Emerging from thearrivals hall onto the streets
of Cairo, the sights, sounds andenergy of the place are
immediately apparent. Trafficweaves frantically in and out as
we take the highway from theairport to the historic quarter
in the old town.
The destination is a formermedieval palace and family home
(01:48):
called Bayt al-Razzaz. Since the1960s, the property has been
owned by Egypt's Ministry OfAntiquities, and now it's looked
after by the Egyptian HeritageRescue Foundation. Architect and
historian Omniya Abdul Barr isits manager and the visionary to
restoring the property that hadfallen into disrepair.
She's invited Heather Jermy, thegeneral manager of National
(02:11):
Trust's Blickling Estate, tojoin her. The properties have
been twinned by theInternational National Trust's
organisation, or INTO, to shareknowledge and insight in the
fight against climate change ona program called Withstanding
Change, funded by the BritishCouncil.
We join Heather and Omniya inCairo.
(02:31):
So welcome to Bayt al-Razzaz.I'm Omniya Abdul Barr. I'm happy
to welcome Heather.
It's good to be here. Hi.
So we are standing in the streetof Babul Ozir and you see in
front of you this line ofminarets, the minaret of the
Blue Mosque. The minaret of UmmAl-Sultan Shaa’ba, which is the
mosque next to Bayt al-Razzaz.
(02:52):
Minarets are towers withdistinctive designs. Everything
from squat steeples to soaringpencil-thin spires that project
the call to prayer.
Cairo is called the city of athousand minarets.
It's so beautiful.
It is amazing, isn't it? It'squite busy out here.
It's always busy.
(03:12):
And there's little cafes, littleworkshops.
Cairo has always been busy.
Yeah.
Omniya trained as an architectand historian specializing in
the Mamluk period of Egyptianhistory. Bayt al-Razzaz was
originally constructed by theSultan Qaytbay in the mid-15th
century.
Take me now into our entrancealley.
(03:34):
So yeah, this is a pretty bigwooden door that we're about to
go through.
And it feels a little bit likeleaving the busy street behind,
doesn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We're now going down into thiscorridor and it just feels a bit
darker and almost a little bitquieter.
Wow, look at this. Oh, it'sabsolutely beautiful. This big,
(03:56):
huge open courtyard space. There's so much going on, I don't
quite know where to look first.
In Cairene design, the courtyardserves many purposes. For
instance, it's a cooler spaceused for gathering and working,
with a through breeze to otherspaces in the house for cooling.
Omniya explained that in manyways it was the heart of the
House. It also bears the coreprinciple of Islamic design,
(04:18):
that the facade is notglamorous. But the inside is
where the beauty and uniquenessis to be found.
The way to enter places is neverdirect. You never enter and then
the final place. You have to gothrough small little alleys.
Even Sultan Hassan, which is thebiggest mosque from this period,
you enter, then you go left,then you go right, then you go
(04:39):
left, and then you find thecourtyard. And it's as if it's
preparing you to what you'reabout to see.
So one of the things that isreally striking about this
courtyard firstly, it's so quietcompared to the really noisy
street outside. But alsoeverywhere I look, I see these
layers of history that havebuilt up over time. Whether it's
an archway that looks like it'sbeen blocked or there's an
(05:02):
inscription here, paintingsthere. It's just these beautiful
layers of history.
We're trying to keep as manylayers as we can. So you have
the window from the inside andthen a window from the outside.
It's part of the history of theplace.
Definitely.
But climate change is nowthreatening Cairo's historic
buildings such as Baytal-Razzaz. Instead of hotter
(05:22):
weather damaging the structures,heavier bouts of rain have
caused problems in a city whereflat roofs and no drainage are
the norm.
The corner House is an importantthree-story section of Bayt
al-Razzaz that was damaged whenthe houses adjoining it
collapsed in an unseasonablyheavy thunderstorm in 2020. The
Corner House was dismantled andis being rebuilt brick by brick,
(05:45):
as can be heard by thebackground sounds.
So this used to be, we call itthe Corner House, which connects
with the houses which areoverlooking the street. The
House next to us collapsedbecause of the amount of rain
that we are experiencing. Andbecause people are not used to
do- maintenance, like checkingtheir gutters and checking their
(06:06):
roofs and even insulating theirroofs.
The core philosophies ofarchitecture and design in the
UK and Egypt are beingstretched. And now they are
learning from each other.
In Egypt, we always think, howare we getting rid of the heat?
And in Europe, we're alwaysthinking, how are we keeping the
heat? So it took me a while tounderstand the wall system.
(06:28):
In Egypt in the medieval times,we built thick walls because we
wanted to create cool areas inthe inside, while in here we
wanted to isolate them from thecold outside.
The important work of restoringBayt al-Razzaz is organized by
the Egyptian Heritage RescueFoundation. It was started by
volunteers to protect culturalheritage from looting and
(06:48):
destruction. This became a majorissue when the Arab Spring
started in 2011. And people roseup to overthrow the government.
In the chaos and politicalupheaval that followed,
different factions protested andfought. Omniya shares the
details of the truly dramaticday that was the catalyst to
(07:08):
meeting the EHRF team andchanging the course of her life.
On the 24th of January 2014, acar bomb took place in front of
the Museum Of Islamic Art. Thetarget was the security building
of Cairo.
It was a huge bomb attack.
It was six in the morning. Thesound woke me up.
(07:30):
And on this side of the road.
You can see the historic facade,the Islamic Museum Of Art,
severely damaged by the blast.
I opened the windows and I sawsmoke coming out of downtown.
And I looked at Twitter and theysaid the security building was
hit. And then I looked at myhusband and I said, the museum
is in front of the securitybuilding. I have to go.
(07:50):
The attack took place outsideone of the most important
museums for Islamic art in theworld.
Well you can a huge crater thatwas left after the bomb blast.
It blew through the concrete andtwisted metal can be seen
everywhere.
What happened with the explosionis that we lost all the windows.
The doors and windows of themuseum were destroyed. Thousands
of protesting Egyptianssurrounded the museum. In the
(08:13):
chaos, there was a danger thatpeople would move in and steal
the artifacts to sell on theblack market.
We weren't sure if the army willbe able to secure the place.
Since we arrived. Riot policehave been attempting to control
the crowd.
Despite the extremely dangeroussituation, the team of EHRF
gathered at the museum to try tosave the priceless artefacts.
(08:35):
These brave volunteers realisedthat they were the last line of
defence and had to move theartefacts to a secure location
inside the museum. Omniya, whois not yet part of the team, had
just arrived at the museum tosee what she could do to help.
And I remember the museumdirector looked at me and said,
so who are you? I said, Omniya."Omniya what?" Abdul Barr. I'm
(08:58):
just a citizen, concerned abouther head. And he was so sweet.
He said, OK, get along and work.
In the chaos inside the museum,Omniya had a chance encounter
with the chairman of the EHRF,Abdelhamid.
I saw Abdelhamid, who's ourchairman. Then I looked at him
and said, "OK, what do youneed?" And he said, "I need
boxes, I need bubble wrap, Ineed pencils and papers.".
(09:20):
In such a high-pressuresituation, where could Omniya
find enough bubble wrap tosecure a thousand priceless
pieces?
Next to the museum, there is anarea called Bab Zuweila, which
is actually medieval from the14th century. We have a saying
in Arabic, you find everythingfrom the needle to the rocket.
And over there you have lots ofcarpenters and people do lots of
(09:41):
woodwork, so eventually theyhave bubble wrap.
And the funny thing, I didn'thave money, but I saw someone
else who came from anotherinstitution and said, I have
money. So we went together and Iwas holding the boxes like
proper ancient Egyptian,everything on my hand and
walking inside the museum.
Back at the museum, the policehad secured the building and the
teams inside were smashing glasscases that held more than 1,000
(10:03):
artifacts. It was then thatanother serious setback
occurred.
Because of the fire system, youhad water coming down the
ceilings, so we were underwater,and at the same time we have
everything, you were walking onbroken glass and broken windows.
Despite the almost overwhelmingodds against them, the EHRF team
worked tirelessly. As the daywore on, artefacts that were at
(10:24):
risk of water damage were movedfirst. Then gradually, the glass
cases were smashed, and the restof the items were then wrapped
and moved to a secure locationin the museum. Everything was
documented before it was removedand numbered when it was stored.
It was a very emotionalexperience for me because I was
collecting objects I know sowell, cracked, broken and in
(10:44):
pieces. There is one specificpiece that is now restored,
thankfully, with his name on it.
Qaytbay was the Sultan whooriginally built Bayt al-Razzaz
and ruled Egypt for a fewdecades.
I remember collecting it fromthe rubble and holding it in my
hand after I secured it in abox. And now that it's restored,
I always have to go and see itand as if I'm saluting it in a
(11:06):
way, say, hello. It gives mehope because you see, after all
the destruction we've seen, themuseum is now open and it's
fabulous and a wonderful placeto be.
Incredibly, the team succeededin saving every artifact in the
museum and the protesters didn'tbreak into the building.
It's a day I will never, never,ever forget.
(11:27):
I'm grateful I had thisexperience because the
day-to-day is not easy, but whenyou remember that you lived a
catastrophe and now it haschanged completely, it gives you
hope. It will not always be thatnegative.
I asked the head of the EgyptianRescue Heritage Foundation why
he risked his life to save theartefacts, and he responded, if
(11:49):
we can protect our history andthrough it understand our past,
then nobody can manipulate ourfuture.
The experience of working withother Egyptians who risked so
much to protect their historypropelled Omniya to a
life-changing decision.
That day, and after working withall the team of EHRF, I felt how
genuine they are, how loving forEgypt, you know. And immediately
(12:12):
I told Abdelhamid, OK, what doyou need? He said, "we need
money and we need to do moretraining." So I started by
fundraising for the foundation.
After successfully fundraisingfor EHRF, Omniya decided to
dedicate her time to restoringthe property we had been
(12:32):
exploring earlier in theepisode, Bayt al-Razzaz. We
rejoin Heather and Omniya in thecourtyard at a celebration of
the work completed on theproperty so far. They have also
been sharing their findings onclimate change adaption for
heritage properties withdignitaries from around the
world.
I'm Gareth Bailey, BritishAmbassador to Egypt. When I was
here last in the 90s, the wholeplace was a ruin. What we've got
(12:54):
today is nothing other than anoasis, because all around us is
a teeming city of 25 millionpeople. And then right in the
heart of it, there's just aperfectly calm, beautifully
restored courtyard with acharming garden. And it's just a
place I think people will see asa refuge.
I'm called John De Konig, and Iwork as part of the evaluation
(13:16):
and support team for thisproject on withstanding climate
change. If you'd been hereyesterday, you would have seen a
large group of small childrenmoving around the place and
learning how to plantdrought-resistant varieties and
things like that.
It was very nice. On this site,they would find a piece of their
(13:38):
history and a piece of theiridentity. And what more can you
expect?
The time arrived for Heather toleave, but not before giving an
invitation for Omniya to visitNorfolk for the next chapter of
the exchange. On the way to theairport, Heather shared her
observations and takeaways fromthe trip.
I'm currently on the bus, havingleft the hotel and making my way
(14:02):
to the airport at the end of mytrip to Cairo. I feel really
overwhelmed by the experiencesthat I've had. One of the things
that I've really taken away fromespecially having those
conversations at Bayt al-Razzazis the work that they do with
community and with local people,with young people, talking to
them about the site.
And mixing into that anunderstanding of the impact that
(14:25):
climate change is having. It'ssomething that we want to do
more of at Blickling. It'ssomething that we're starting to
do. But actually, I thinkthey're just miles ahead of us
in terms of really understandinghow to bring those messages to
the people around them.
Over the following months, bothHeather and Omniya were busy
restoring and managing theirrespective properties. Before
(14:46):
long, it was time for Omniya'sreturn visit to Norfolk, England
and the picturesque BlicklingHall. It's a magnificent
Jacobean Mansion with a richheritage.
Similar to Bayt al-Razzaz, itwas constructed centuries ago
and needs constant maintenanceto fight climate change. It
possesses one of the mostimportant libraries in England
with over 12,000 books. Omniyawas hoping to gain more insight
(15:08):
into how Heather and her teamwere adapting to the challenges
of climate change.
Hi Omnyia, it's really great tosee you again.
Thanks Heather, and I see therain is not leaving us.
No, so here we are at Blicklingand one of the things we'll be
talking about today is rain andthe effect it has on our
buildings and on our gardens andactually the rain is quite
(15:32):
heavily falling at the moment.
Yeah, it's a good start.
Yeah, so we'll get our brolliesup and we will go up for a walk
up the front drive and show youthe house.
Yalla, let's go.
Alrighty.
And now you'll have to walk overone of our many makeshift
streams that occur when it'sraining.
(15:55):
On the left is the wall to ourorchard and walled garden. That
has been a kitchen garden forthe Hall since the 1600s.
Oh, that's impressive.
Yeah.
And do we know what sort ofthings they were planting? And
did it change?
One of the great stories is thatwhen we had glass houses along
one of the walls, there used tobe a competition between us and
(16:18):
another country estate in thearea who could grow the best
pineapples.
You wouldn't think pineapplesgrowing in such weather.
No. Although, speaking ofclimate change, you never know,
we might be able to grow apineapple soon.
The Blickling Estate is over4,600 acres and Blickling Hall
is among the many buildingslooked after by the National
(16:40):
Trust on the land. Originallyconstructed in the 17th century
for Sir Henry Hobart, it cameinto the National Trust's hands
in 1940 by Philip Kerr, LordLothian. It welcomes hundreds of
thousands of visitors annually.
I like to call this front drivebit the warm hug of Blickling.
(17:01):
If you look at how the two wingscome down the side and the
mansion is there, it feelsalmost a little bit like the
wings are coming around to giveyou a Blickling hug.
As we're going to cross over thebridge, you'll see that there's
two bulls here. These are theHenry Hobart bulls. So he was
the first real owner of theestate of Blickling, but they're
kind of also based on the Boleynbulls. So you know Anne Boleyn?
(17:25):
Yes.
Famous Anne Boleyn. She was bornhere.
How interesting. Yeah.
Actually, she wasn't born inthis House. Anne Boleyn was born
at Blickling, as far as we know.Yeah. But it was a different
House at the time.
The bull is a symbol that theHobart family used, and
historical records suggest itwas from a desire to associate
themselves with Anne Boleyn,whose family's symbol was a
(17:46):
bull.
Omniya, I'm really excitedbecause I'm about to take you
into Blickling Hall and we'reabout to go and knock, then we
can show you around some of ourfantastic spaces and talk about
actually how climate change isaffecting them.
The rain has stopped.
It's letting up a little bit.
Yeah, we need to open ourumbrellas.
Omniya, why don't you knock onthe knocker for us?
(18:07):
I love that.
Someone will let us in.
Hello, we've just been greetedby our property curator, Megan
Dennis. Hi, Megan.
Hi nice to meet you.
I'm Omniya. I'm from Cairo.
Over the years, Blickling Hallhas seen many owners and even
(18:28):
housed soldiers during theSecond World War.
Okay, Omniya, here we are. We'rein the Great Hall Of Blickling.
I think it's pretty spectacular.What do you think?
It's very impressive with thecoloured glass in front of us.
Heather and Omniya notesimilarities between Blickling's
ornate ceilings and windowdecorations and those at Bayt
al-Razzaz. The murals in themain library of Blickling Hall
(18:51):
are likely to have beeninfluenced by Victorian
Egyptomania, featuring Egyptianplants and animals.
So actually the canvas panelsapplied onto the ceiling.
Really? Because we have a canvasceiling as well in Bayt
al-Razzaz and it's very, veryweird to find such a thing. I
don't think it exists anywhereelse in Cairo.
We have a spare one kind ofrolled up in the store as well.
(19:12):
I'd love to see that!
That canvas one at Baytal-Razzaz is that beautiful,
chevron, kind of zigzag pattern,isn't it?
Yeah, like on a Sony ceiling!
It is, yeah.
Blickling Hall suffers fromsimilar water-related issues to
Bayt al-Razzaz, with thedrainage systems in the roof
unable to cope with the amountof rainfall. Damp leaks into the
(19:32):
house cause water ingress. Thiscreates a perfect environment
for invasive bugs.
We're trying to do a lot morework with engaging young people
and families. It's kind of underthe banner of'conservation
conversations' say that 10 timesfast!
But it was all about bugsbecause one of the things that
(19:54):
we face, especially with wateringress and humidity levels, is
lots of bugs. And so it wasconnecting particularly young
people from the local schoolsand areas like that with the
impact that bugs have on ourbuildings and collection.
Here's Megan Dennis, theproperty curator.
(20:14):
We've been monitoring pestswithin the house for decades and
in the last couple of yearswe've really noticed enormous
increases in the number ofsilverfish in this room, which
is a real concern because of thehand-painted wallpaper.
These little creatures, theyvary between kind of 5mm to
about 10mm long. They look alittle bit like wood lice.
(20:37):
They're kind of silvery, hencethe name, and they've got two
little things that come out oftheir back end. You commonly see
them in a kitchen or a bathroombecause they like it where it's
nice and damp.
And so we now have silverfishinfestation as a result of the
water ingress above. They'recoming in, they're loving all
the damp wood, then they'recoming down here and they're
loving all the juicy wallpaper,which is a real issue. We can't
(21:01):
stop them coming in. They've gotthe perfect habitat here. What
we try and do is get rid of themas quickly as we can before they
do too much damage.
So how do you get rid ofsilverfish as quickly as
possible?
We use a desiccant powder, butwe dry them out. Basically, they
kind of get dried and then wejust hoover them up.
We're now outside of the hall.Omniya, I hope you had an
(21:24):
amazing time looking aroundinside.
It's fabulous!
And we talked a little bit aboutall of the issues we have with
water management here and reallyproud of a project that we've
just completed, all to do withhow we manage water.
This is Katherine, who was headof this National Trust funded
project as an example of climateadaption best practice in
heritage buildings to explainmore about what was going wrong
(21:46):
and the danger posed toBlickling Hall.
And historically, if we hadprolonged heavy rainfall, it
would be so wet here, the waterwould be nearly up to the window
level in the basement and wewould have the fire brigade here
pumping out and it was a regularoccurrence.
So how did the team go aboutfixing this issue?
Yes so it kicked off a couple ofyears ago with actually some
(22:07):
repairs to the lake wall that weneeded to do and we needed to
drop the lake level and wecouldn't do it because the
sluice was broken.
The sluice is a sliding gate inthe dam wall that can be opened
or closed to let out water fromthe lake.
So that then sparked a largerpiece of work to fix the broken
sluice and in doing the sort ofpre-work on that we realised
(22:27):
that the lakeside culvert wascompletely blocked and that
takes all of the surface waterfrom the gardens and the
mansion.
After discovering that the maindrainage tunnel for the water
was blocked, emergency work wentahead to try and clear the
blockage. The team used aremote-controlled drain
inspection vehicle to check the300 meter distance. The findings
were surprising.
(22:48):
It starts off a big brickculvert about 300 millimeter
diameter. And then when theyreplaced the final section, they
put a clay pipe in that wasabout half of the size. So when
you get a lot of water chargingdown the culvert, it suddenly
meets a point where it gets alot smaller. And that's where
all the sludge and the silt willthen gather. And that was
blocking up the pipe.
(23:10):
A culvert is a tunnel-likestructure that directs water
away from a road, railway orbuilding to prevent flooding. It
can be in different forms suchas a pipe, tunnel or ditch.
So we cleared that. Whichenabled us to get into the lake.
We had to dam the lake so we'vedrained the top end of the lake,
we've repaired the wall, we'vereplaced the sluice, got all of
that functioning.
(23:31):
The work was soon put to thetest.
And during that work, so we wentthrough three major storms and
for the first time in I think 20years the basement didn't flood
because we cleared the surfacewater culvert.
Congratulations.
So we were, time we had the highrainfall, we kind of looked
around the project team andlooked at Heather and went we
think we might have fixed theflooding problem, but we're not
(23:53):
going to get too excited. Andthen after the second heavy
rainfall event, we did have somehigh fives at that point and
said I think we've cracked it.
And then after the third one, wewere actually quite relaxed
going, I think we've solved theproblem. Yeah, let the rain
come. So we now know that thatlakeside culvert is absolutely
key to keeping the mansion dry.And also now we can lower the
(24:15):
lake levels so we can pre-emptheavy rainfall and we can
actually lower the lake so thatit's got more capacity because
it will take all of the waterrunoff.
The project was successful, andthe team now regularly clean the
clay culvert to allow the waterto flow through. But it is
showing signs of wear, so itwill need to be replaced soon.
The fight to keep Blickling Hallfrom flooding will continue.
(24:38):
Heather shared her thoughts onthe work so far.
This project is gold star allaround because from concept
through to completion was, Ithink, what, 18 months?
In the heritage world, that's avery speedy project.
It was so important that we goton top of that conservation of
the lake wall.
It's quite a delicate process,but it's all underground and
(24:59):
underwater and you spend a lotof money and you don't see a lot
of change other than knowingthat the water's going where it
needs to go.
I have to say, it's a lot ofwork. That's quite impressive.
Well done.
Thank you.
When these places were built,they didn't anticipate the
amount of rainfall that we'renow seeing, so that's that other
added kind of headache that wenow need to look at.
(25:19):
After the tour of Blickling,Heather and Omniya shared what
they feel they have gained fromthe twinning so far.
For me, straight away, I'mseeing a team. And I'd love to
see a team. And Bayt al-Razzazis as functioning and loving as
the Blickling team. And I thinkI was just telling Heather, I'd
love to know as well howengagement, your volunteer
(25:40):
system must be also somethingvery exciting to explore.
We don't have that volunteersystem yet. So, yeah, so I think
for me, it's just that seeingthat the team exists, that
encourages me to create my own.
I am endlessly impressed by you,Omniya, actually. Just when
somebody cares so much. I reallylike the way that you were kind
(26:04):
of inviting people into Baytal-Razzaz because, you know,
once they get in there, they'regoing to understand it, they're
going to love it and they'regoing to want to help.
Isn't it interesting? It's aboutpeople. Climate change is real.
We're seeing the impact of it.We can share the practical
stuff. We can share thingsabout, you know, here's a report
I did and here's my monitoringbut actually all of that is
(26:25):
driven by people.
Totally yes yeah.
(26:48):
What an inspiring place to endthis episode a relationship
built between people who are nowfriends and between cultures
that are vastly different butfacing each challenge together.
If you want to find out moreabout the INTO twinning
partnership, Bayt al-Razzaz orBlickling, please search for
INTO Withstanding Change or INTOon the National Trust website.
(27:11):
The Withstanding Change projecthas been funded by the British
Council. To hear more episodesof the National Trust Podcast,
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Hello and welcome to thisepisode of the National Trust
Podcast. I'm James Grasby,curator of buildings and
(00:45):
historic landscapes for theTrust. Join me as we compare two
remarkable estates that are atrisk. The picturesque Blickling
Estate in Norfolk, England, andthe enchanting former palace
Bayt al-Razzaz in the heart ofCairo, Egypt.
We will meet the inspiringpeople who are responsible for
protecting these culturaltreasures from destruction
(01:06):
through extreme weather eventsand political and social
upheaval. Prepare to fly 4,000miles from the UK to one of the
historical centres of theArab-Speaking world in Cairo.
Telling the story is producerJesse Edbrooke.
The flight time is about fourand a half hours from London
(01:28):
Heathrow. Emerging from thearrivals hall onto the streets
of Cairo, the sights, sounds andenergy of the place are
immediately apparent. Trafficweaves frantically in and out as
we take the highway from theairport to the historic quarter
in the old town.
The destination is a formermedieval palace and family home
(01:48):
called Bayt al-Razzaz. Since the1960s, the property has been
owned by Egypt's Ministry OfAntiquities, and now it's looked
after by the Egyptian HeritageRescue Foundation. Architect and
historian Omniya Abdul Barr isits manager and the visionary to
restoring the property that hadfallen into disrepair.
She's invited Heather Jermy, thegeneral manager of National
(02:11):
Trust's Blickling Estate, tojoin her. The properties have
been twinned by theInternational National Trust's
organisation, or INTO, to shareknowledge and insight in the
fight against climate change ona program called Withstanding
Change, funded by the BritishCouncil.
We join Heather and Omniya inCairo.
(02:31):
So welcome to Bayt al-Razzaz.I'm Omniya Abdul Barr. I'm happy
to welcome Heather.
It's good to be here. Hi.
So we are standing in the streetof Babul Ozir and you see in
front of you this line ofminarets, the minaret of the
Blue Mosque. The minaret of UmmAl-Sultan Shaa’ba, which is the
mosque next to Bayt al-Razzaz.
(02:52):
Minarets are towers withdistinctive designs. Everything
from squat steeples to soaringpencil-thin spires that project
the call to prayer.
Cairo is called the city of athousand minarets.
It's so beautiful.
It is amazing, isn't it? It'squite busy out here.
It's always busy.
(03:12):
And there's little cafes, littleworkshops.
Cairo has always been busy.
Yeah.
Omniya trained as an architectand historian specializing in
the Mamluk period of Egyptianhistory. Bayt al-Razzaz was
originally constructed by theSultan Qaytbay in the mid-15th
century.
Take me now into our entrancealley.
(03:34):
So yeah, this is a pretty bigwooden door that we're about to
go through.
And it feels a little bit likeleaving the busy street behind,
doesn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We're now going down into thiscorridor and it just feels a bit
darker and almost a little bitquieter.
Wow, look at this. Oh, it'sabsolutely beautiful. This big,
(03:56):
huge open courtyard space. There's so much going on, I don't
quite know where to look first.
In Cairene design, the courtyardserves many purposes. For
instance, it's a cooler spaceused for gathering and working,
with a through breeze to otherspaces in the house for cooling.
Omniya explained that in manyways it was the heart of the
House. It also bears the coreprinciple of Islamic design,
(04:18):
that the facade is notglamorous. But the inside is
where the beauty and uniquenessis to be found.
The way to enter places is neverdirect. You never enter and then
the final place. You have to gothrough small little alleys.
Even Sultan Hassan, which is thebiggest mosque from this period,
you enter, then you go left,then you go right, then you go
(04:39):
left, and then you find thecourtyard. And it's as if it's
preparing you to what you'reabout to see.
So one of the things that isreally striking about this
courtyard firstly, it's so quietcompared to the really noisy
street outside. But alsoeverywhere I look, I see these
layers of history that havebuilt up over time. Whether it's
an archway that looks like it'sbeen blocked or there's an
(05:02):
inscription here, paintingsthere. It's just these beautiful
layers of history.
We're trying to keep as manylayers as we can. So you have
the window from the inside andthen a window from the outside.
It's part of the history of theplace.
Definitely.
But climate change is nowthreatening Cairo's historic
buildings such as Baytal-Razzaz. Instead of hotter
(05:22):
weather damaging the structures,heavier bouts of rain have
caused problems in a city whereflat roofs and no drainage are
the norm.
The corner House is an importantthree-story section of Bayt
al-Razzaz that was damaged whenthe houses adjoining it
collapsed in an unseasonablyheavy thunderstorm in 2020. The
Corner House was dismantled andis being rebuilt brick by brick,
(05:45):
as can be heard by thebackground sounds.
So this used to be, we call itthe Corner House, which connects
with the houses which areoverlooking the street. The
House next to us collapsedbecause of the amount of rain
that we are experiencing. Andbecause people are not used to
do- maintenance, like checkingtheir gutters and checking their
(06:06):
roofs and even insulating theirroofs.
The core philosophies ofarchitecture and design in the
UK and Egypt are beingstretched. And now they are
learning from each other.
In Egypt, we always think, howare we getting rid of the heat?
And in Europe, we're alwaysthinking, how are we keeping the
heat? So it took me a while tounderstand the wall system.
(06:28):
In Egypt in the medieval times,we built thick walls because we
wanted to create cool areas inthe inside, while in here we
wanted to isolate them from thecold outside.
The important work of restoringBayt al-Razzaz is organized by
the Egyptian Heritage RescueFoundation. It was started by
volunteers to protect culturalheritage from looting and
(06:48):
destruction. This became a majorissue when the Arab Spring
started in 2011. And people roseup to overthrow the government.
In the chaos and politicalupheaval that followed,
different factions protested andfought. Omniya shares the
details of the truly dramaticday that was the catalyst to
(07:08):
meeting the EHRF team andchanging the course of her life.
On the 24th of January 2014, acar bomb took place in front of
the Museum Of Islamic Art. Thetarget was the security building
of Cairo.
It was a huge bomb attack.
It was six in the morning. Thesound woke me up.
(07:30):
And on this side of the road.
You can see the historic facade,the Islamic Museum Of Art,
severely damaged by the blast.
I opened the windows and I sawsmoke coming out of downtown.
And I looked at Twitter and theysaid the security building was
hit. And then I looked at myhusband and I said, the museum
is in front of the securitybuilding. I have to go.
(07:50):
The attack took place outsideone of the most important
museums for Islamic art in theworld.
Well you can a huge crater thatwas left after the bomb blast.
It blew through the concrete andtwisted metal can be seen
everywhere.
What happened with the explosionis that we lost all the windows.
The doors and windows of themuseum were destroyed. Thousands
of protesting Egyptianssurrounded the museum. In the
(08:13):
chaos, there was a danger thatpeople would move in and steal
the artifacts to sell on theblack market.
We weren't sure if the army willbe able to secure the place.
Since we arrived. Riot policehave been attempting to control
the crowd.
Despite the extremely dangeroussituation, the team of EHRF
gathered at the museum to try tosave the priceless artefacts.
(08:35):
These brave volunteers realisedthat they were the last line of
defence and had to move theartefacts to a secure location
inside the museum. Omniya, whois not yet part of the team, had
just arrived at the museum tosee what she could do to help.
And I remember the museumdirector looked at me and said,
so who are you? I said, Omniya."Omniya what?" Abdul Barr. I'm
(08:58):
just a citizen, concerned abouther head. And he was so sweet.
He said, OK, get along and work.
In the chaos inside the museum,Omniya had a chance encounter
with the chairman of the EHRF,Abdelhamid.
I saw Abdelhamid, who's ourchairman. Then I looked at him
and said, "OK, what do youneed?" And he said, "I need
boxes, I need bubble wrap, Ineed pencils and papers.".
(09:20):
In such a high-pressuresituation, where could Omniya
find enough bubble wrap tosecure a thousand priceless
pieces?
Next to the museum, there is anarea called Bab Zuweila, which
is actually medieval from the14th century. We have a saying
in Arabic, you find everythingfrom the needle to the rocket.
And over there you have lots ofcarpenters and people do lots of
(09:41):
woodwork, so eventually theyhave bubble wrap.
And the funny thing, I didn'thave money, but I saw someone
else who came from anotherinstitution and said, I have
money. So we went together and Iwas holding the boxes like
proper ancient Egyptian,everything on my hand and
walking inside the museum.
Back at the museum, the policehad secured the building and the
teams inside were smashing glasscases that held more than 1,000
(10:03):
artifacts. It was then thatanother serious setback
occurred.
Because of the fire system, youhad water coming down the
ceilings, so we were underwater,and at the same time we have
everything, you were walking onbroken glass and broken windows.
Despite the almost overwhelmingodds against them, the EHRF team
worked tirelessly. As the daywore on, artefacts that were at
(10:24):
risk of water damage were movedfirst. Then gradually, the glass
cases were smashed, and the restof the items were then wrapped
and moved to a secure locationin the museum. Everything was
documented before it was removedand numbered when it was stored.
It was a very emotionalexperience for me because I was
collecting objects I know sowell, cracked, broken and in
(10:44):
pieces. There is one specificpiece that is now restored,
thankfully, with his name on it.
Qaytbay was the Sultan whooriginally built Bayt al-Razzaz
and ruled Egypt for a fewdecades.
I remember collecting it fromthe rubble and holding it in my
hand after I secured it in abox. And now that it's restored,
I always have to go and see itand as if I'm saluting it in a
(11:06):
way, say, hello. It gives mehope because you see, after all
the destruction we've seen, themuseum is now open and it's
fabulous and a wonderful placeto be.
Incredibly, the team succeededin saving every artifact in the
museum and the protesters didn'tbreak into the building.
It's a day I will never, never,ever forget.
(11:27):
I'm grateful I had thisexperience because the
day-to-day is not easy, but whenyou remember that you lived a
catastrophe and now it haschanged completely, it gives you
hope. It will not always be thatnegative.
I asked the head of the EgyptianRescue Heritage Foundation why
he risked his life to save theartefacts, and he responded, if
(11:49):
we can protect our history andthrough it understand our past,
then nobody can manipulate ourfuture.
The experience of working withother Egyptians who risked so
much to protect their historypropelled Omniya to a
life-changing decision.
That day, and after working withall the team of EHRF, I felt how
genuine they are, how loving forEgypt, you know. And immediately
(12:12):
I told Abdelhamid, OK, what doyou need? He said, "we need
money and we need to do moretraining." So I started by
fundraising for the foundation.
After successfully fundraisingfor EHRF, Omniya decided to
dedicate her time to restoringthe property we had been
(12:32):
exploring earlier in theepisode, Bayt al-Razzaz. We
rejoin Heather and Omniya in thecourtyard at a celebration of
the work completed on theproperty so far. They have also
been sharing their findings onclimate change adaption for
heritage properties withdignitaries from around the
world.
I'm Gareth Bailey, BritishAmbassador to Egypt. When I was
here last in the 90s, the wholeplace was a ruin. What we've got
(12:54):
today is nothing other than anoasis, because all around us is
a teeming city of 25 millionpeople. And then right in the
heart of it, there's just aperfectly calm, beautifully
restored courtyard with acharming garden. And it's just a
place I think people will see asa refuge.
I'm called John De Konig, and Iwork as part of the evaluation
(13:16):
and support team for thisproject on withstanding climate
change. If you'd been hereyesterday, you would have seen a
large group of small childrenmoving around the place and
learning how to plantdrought-resistant varieties and
things like that.
It was very nice. On this site,they would find a piece of their
(13:38):
history and a piece of theiridentity. And what more can you
expect?
The time arrived for Heather toleave, but not before giving an
invitation for Omniya to visitNorfolk for the next chapter of
the exchange. On the way to theairport, Heather shared her
observations and takeaways fromthe trip.
I'm currently on the bus, havingleft the hotel and making my way
(14:02):
to the airport at the end of mytrip to Cairo. I feel really
overwhelmed by the experiencesthat I've had. One of the things
that I've really taken away fromespecially having those
conversations at Bayt al-Razzazis the work that they do with
community and with local people,with young people, talking to
them about the site.
And mixing into that anunderstanding of the impact that
(14:25):
climate change is having. It'ssomething that we want to do
more of at Blickling. It'ssomething that we're starting to
do. But actually, I thinkthey're just miles ahead of us
in terms of really understandinghow to bring those messages to
the people around them.
Over the following months, bothHeather and Omniya were busy
restoring and managing theirrespective properties. Before
(14:46):
long, it was time for Omniya'sreturn visit to Norfolk, England
and the picturesque BlicklingHall. It's a magnificent
Jacobean Mansion with a richheritage.
Similar to Bayt al-Razzaz, itwas constructed centuries ago
and needs constant maintenanceto fight climate change. It
possesses one of the mostimportant libraries in England
with over 12,000 books. Omniyawas hoping to gain more insight
(15:08):
into how Heather and her teamwere adapting to the challenges
of climate change.
Hi Omnyia, it's really great tosee you again.
Thanks Heather, and I see therain is not leaving us.
No, so here we are at Blicklingand one of the things we'll be
talking about today is rain andthe effect it has on our
buildings and on our gardens andactually the rain is quite
(15:32):
heavily falling at the moment.
Yeah, it's a good start.
Yeah, so we'll get our brolliesup and we will go up for a walk
up the front drive and show youthe house.
Yalla, let's go.
Alrighty.
And now you'll have to walk overone of our many makeshift
streams that occur when it'sraining.
(15:55):
On the left is the wall to ourorchard and walled garden. That
has been a kitchen garden forthe Hall since the 1600s.
Oh, that's impressive.
Yeah.
And do we know what sort ofthings they were planting? And
did it change?
One of the great stories is thatwhen we had glass houses along
one of the walls, there used tobe a competition between us and
(16:18):
another country estate in thearea who could grow the best
pineapples.
You wouldn't think pineapplesgrowing in such weather.
No. Although, speaking ofclimate change, you never know,
we might be able to grow apineapple soon.
The Blickling Estate is over4,600 acres and Blickling Hall
is among the many buildingslooked after by the National
(16:40):
Trust on the land. Originallyconstructed in the 17th century
for Sir Henry Hobart, it cameinto the National Trust's hands
in 1940 by Philip Kerr, LordLothian. It welcomes hundreds of
thousands of visitors annually.
I like to call this front drivebit the warm hug of Blickling.
(17:01):
If you look at how the two wingscome down the side and the
mansion is there, it feelsalmost a little bit like the
wings are coming around to giveyou a Blickling hug.
As we're going to cross over thebridge, you'll see that there's
two bulls here. These are theHenry Hobart bulls. So he was
the first real owner of theestate of Blickling, but they're
kind of also based on the Boleynbulls. So you know Anne Boleyn?
(17:25):
Yes.
Famous Anne Boleyn. She was bornhere.
How interesting. Yeah.
Actually, she wasn't born inthis House. Anne Boleyn was born
at Blickling, as far as we know.Yeah. But it was a different
House at the time.
The bull is a symbol that theHobart family used, and
historical records suggest itwas from a desire to associate
themselves with Anne Boleyn,whose family's symbol was a
(17:46):
bull.
Omniya, I'm really excitedbecause I'm about to take you
into Blickling Hall and we'reabout to go and knock, then we
can show you around some of ourfantastic spaces and talk about
actually how climate change isaffecting them.
The rain has stopped.
It's letting up a little bit.
Yeah, we need to open ourumbrellas.
Omniya, why don't you knock onthe knocker for us?
(18:07):
I love that.
Someone will let us in.
Hello, we've just been greetedby our property curator, Megan
Dennis. Hi, Megan.
Hi nice to meet you.
I'm Omniya. I'm from Cairo.
Over the years, Blickling Hallhas seen many owners and even
(18:28):
housed soldiers during theSecond World War.
Okay, Omniya, here we are. We'rein the Great Hall Of Blickling.
I think it's pretty spectacular.What do you think?
It's very impressive with thecoloured glass in front of us.
Heather and Omniya notesimilarities between Blickling's
ornate ceilings and windowdecorations and those at Bayt
al-Razzaz. The murals in themain library of Blickling Hall
(18:51):
are likely to have beeninfluenced by Victorian
Egyptomania, featuring Egyptianplants and animals.
So actually the canvas panelsapplied onto the ceiling.
Really? Because we have a canvasceiling as well in Bayt
al-Razzaz and it's very, veryweird to find such a thing. I
don't think it exists anywhereelse in Cairo.
We have a spare one kind ofrolled up in the store as well.
(19:12):
I'd love to see that!
That canvas one at Baytal-Razzaz is that beautiful,
chevron, kind of zigzag pattern,isn't it?
Yeah, like on a Sony ceiling!
It is, yeah.
Blickling Hall suffers fromsimilar water-related issues to
Bayt al-Razzaz, with thedrainage systems in the roof
unable to cope with the amountof rainfall. Damp leaks into the
(19:32):
house cause water ingress. Thiscreates a perfect environment
for invasive bugs.
We're trying to do a lot morework with engaging young people
and families. It's kind of underthe banner of'conservation
conversations' say that 10 timesfast!
But it was all about bugsbecause one of the things that
(19:54):
we face, especially with wateringress and humidity levels, is
lots of bugs. And so it wasconnecting particularly young
people from the local schoolsand areas like that with the
impact that bugs have on ourbuildings and collection.
Here's Megan Dennis, theproperty curator.
(20:14):
We've been monitoring pestswithin the house for decades and
in the last couple of yearswe've really noticed enormous
increases in the number ofsilverfish in this room, which
is a real concern because of thehand-painted wallpaper.
These little creatures, theyvary between kind of 5mm to
about 10mm long. They look alittle bit like wood lice.
(20:37):
They're kind of silvery, hencethe name, and they've got two
little things that come out oftheir back end. You commonly see
them in a kitchen or a bathroombecause they like it where it's
nice and damp.
And so we now have silverfishinfestation as a result of the
water ingress above. They'recoming in, they're loving all
the damp wood, then they'recoming down here and they're
loving all the juicy wallpaper,which is a real issue. We can't
(21:01):
stop them coming in. They've gotthe perfect habitat here. What
we try and do is get rid of themas quickly as we can before they
do too much damage.
So how do you get rid ofsilverfish as quickly as
possible?
We use a desiccant powder, butwe dry them out. Basically, they
kind of get dried and then wejust hoover them up.
We're now outside of the hall.Omniya, I hope you had an
(21:24):
amazing time looking aroundinside.
It's fabulous!
And we talked a little bit aboutall of the issues we have with
water management here and reallyproud of a project that we've
just completed, all to do withhow we manage water.
This is Katherine, who was headof this National Trust funded
project as an example of climateadaption best practice in
heritage buildings to explainmore about what was going wrong
(21:46):
and the danger posed toBlickling Hall.
And historically, if we hadprolonged heavy rainfall, it
would be so wet here, the waterwould be nearly up to the window
level in the basement and wewould have the fire brigade here
pumping out and it was a regularoccurrence.
So how did the team go aboutfixing this issue?
Yes so it kicked off a couple ofyears ago with actually some
(22:07):
repairs to the lake wall that weneeded to do and we needed to
drop the lake level and wecouldn't do it because the
sluice was broken.
The sluice is a sliding gate inthe dam wall that can be opened
or closed to let out water fromthe lake.
So that then sparked a largerpiece of work to fix the broken
sluice and in doing the sort ofpre-work on that we realised
(22:27):
that the lakeside culvert wascompletely blocked and that
takes all of the surface waterfrom the gardens and the
mansion.
After discovering that the maindrainage tunnel for the water
was blocked, emergency work wentahead to try and clear the
blockage. The team used aremote-controlled drain
inspection vehicle to check the300 meter distance. The findings
were surprising.
(22:48):
It starts off a big brickculvert about 300 millimeter
diameter. And then when theyreplaced the final section, they
put a clay pipe in that wasabout half of the size. So when
you get a lot of water chargingdown the culvert, it suddenly
meets a point where it gets alot smaller. And that's where
all the sludge and the silt willthen gather. And that was
blocking up the pipe.
(23:10):
A culvert is a tunnel-likestructure that directs water
away from a road, railway orbuilding to prevent flooding. It
can be in different forms suchas a pipe, tunnel or ditch.
So we cleared that. Whichenabled us to get into the lake.
We had to dam the lake so we'vedrained the top end of the lake,
we've repaired the wall, we'vereplaced the sluice, got all of
that functioning.
(23:31):
The work was soon put to thetest.
And during that work, so we wentthrough three major storms and
for the first time in I think 20years the basement didn't flood
because we cleared the surfacewater culvert.
Congratulations.
So we were, time we had the highrainfall, we kind of looked
around the project team andlooked at Heather and went we
think we might have fixed theflooding problem, but we're not
(23:53):
going to get too excited. Andthen after the second heavy
rainfall event, we did have somehigh fives at that point and
said I think we've cracked it.
And then after the third one, wewere actually quite relaxed
going, I think we've solved theproblem. Yeah, let the rain
come. So we now know that thatlakeside culvert is absolutely
key to keeping the mansion dry.And also now we can lower the
(24:15):
lake levels so we can pre-emptheavy rainfall and we can
actually lower the lake so thatit's got more capacity because
it will take all of the waterrunoff.
The project was successful, andthe team now regularly clean the
clay culvert to allow the waterto flow through. But it is
showing signs of wear, so itwill need to be replaced soon.
The fight to keep Blickling Hallfrom flooding will continue.
(24:38):
Heather shared her thoughts onthe work so far.
This project is gold star allaround because from concept
through to completion was, Ithink, what, 18 months?
In the heritage world, that's avery speedy project.
It was so important that we goton top of that conservation of
the lake wall.
It's quite a delicate process,but it's all underground and
(24:59):
underwater and you spend a lotof money and you don't see a lot
of change other than knowingthat the water's going where it
needs to go.
I have to say, it's a lot ofwork. That's quite impressive.
Well done.
Thank you.
When these places were built,they didn't anticipate the
amount of rainfall that we'renow seeing, so that's that other
added kind of headache that wenow need to look at.
(25:19):
After the tour of Blickling,Heather and Omniya shared what
they feel they have gained fromthe twinning so far.
For me, straight away, I'mseeing a team. And I'd love to
see a team. And Bayt al-Razzazis as functioning and loving as
the Blickling team. And I thinkI was just telling Heather, I'd
love to know as well howengagement, your volunteer
(25:40):
system must be also somethingvery exciting to explore.
We don't have that volunteersystem yet. So, yeah, so I think
for me, it's just that seeingthat the team exists, that
encourages me to create my own.
I am endlessly impressed by you,Omniya, actually. Just when
somebody cares so much. I reallylike the way that you were kind
(26:04):
of inviting people into Baytal-Razzaz because, you know,
once they get in there, they'regoing to understand it, they're
going to love it and they'regoing to want to help.
Isn't it interesting? It's aboutpeople. Climate change is real.
We're seeing the impact of it.We can share the practical
stuff. We can share thingsabout, you know, here's a report
I did and here's my monitoringbut actually all of that is
(26:25):
driven by people.
Totally yes yeah.
(26:48):
What an inspiring place to endthis episode a relationship
built between people who are nowfriends and between cultures
that are vastly different butfacing each challenge together.
If you want to find out moreabout the INTO twinning
partnership, Bayt al-Razzaz orBlickling, please search for
INTO Withstanding Change or INTOon the National Trust website.
(27:11):
The Withstanding Change projecthas been funded by the British
Council. To hear more episodesof the National Trust Podcast,
please subscribe to wherever youget your podcasts. Until next
time, goodbye.
Our award-winning MembersMagazine is now digital. It
includes the same great contentas the print magazine, plus
(27:34):
interactive features likevideos, soundscapes and podcasts
like this one. For a taste ofwhat to expect, along with five
delicious regional recipes fromTrust places, go to
nationaltrust.org.uk/historic-r-ecipes, or see this episode's
show notes to find out how toswitch.
(27:57):
Whatever your choice, you'll behelping look after nature,
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Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com