September 1, 2025 • 60 mins
Bob talks about his mom’s death and his grief
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/KIRK to get 10% off your first month.
00:00 His mom's decline
03:51 Do Bob's siblings validate his experience?
11:04 How does Bob feel about her passing?
23:33 Did Bob's parents ever apologize?
39:05 Bob's anticipatory grief
43:02 Dr. Kirk's book is done!
48:42 Am I experiencing empathy or shame?
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September 1, 2025
The Psychology In Seattle Podcast ®
Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
Disclaimer: The content provided is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only. Nothing here constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis, or creates a counselor-client relationship. Topics discussed may generate differing points of view. If you participate (by being a guest, submitting a question, or commenting) you must do so with the knowledge that we cannot control reactions or responses from others, which may not agree with you or feel unfair. Your participation on this site is at your own risk, accepting full responsibility for any liability or harm that may result. Anything you write here may be used for discussion or endorsement of the podcast. Opinions and views expressed by the host and guest hosts are personal views. Although, we take precautions and fact check, they should not be considered facts and the opinions may change. Opinions posted by participants (such as comments) are not those of the hosts. Readers should not rely on any information found here and should perform due diligence before taking any action. For a more extensive description of factors for you to consider, please see www.psychologyinseattle.com
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/KIRK to get 10% off your first month.
00:00 His mom's decline
03:51 Do Bob's siblings validate his experience?
11:04 How does Bob feel about her passing?
23:33 Did Bob's parents ever apologize?
39:05 Bob's anticipatory grief
43:02 Dr. Kirk's book is done!
48:42 Am I experiencing empathy or shame?
Become a member: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOUZWV1DRtHtpP2H48S7iiw/join
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/PsychologyInSeattle
Email: https://www.psychologyinseattle.com/contact
Website: https://www.psychologyinseattle.com
Merch: https://psychologyinseattle-shop.fourthwall.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/psychologyinseattle/
Facebook Official Page: https://www.facebook.com/PsychologyInSeattle/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kirk.honda
September 1, 2025
The Psychology In Seattle Podcast ®
Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
Disclaimer: The content provided is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only. Nothing here constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis, or creates a counselor-client relationship. Topics discussed may generate differing points of view. If you participate (by being a guest, submitting a question, or commenting) you must do so with the knowledge that we cannot control reactions or responses from others, which may not agree with you or feel unfair. Your participation on this site is at your own risk, accepting full responsibility for any liability or harm that may result. Anything you write here may be used for discussion or endorsement of the podcast. Opinions and views expressed by the host and guest hosts are personal views. Although, we take precautions and fact check, they should not be considered facts and the opinions may change. Opinions posted by participants (such as comments) are not those of the hosts. Readers should not rely on any information found here and should perform due diligence before taking any action. For a more extensive description of factors for you to consider, please see www.psychologyinseattle.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So, Bob, your mom died. Yeah, And I don't know
if the listeners know the details that you've talked about
on the podcast about your mom and your current relationship
and your past relationship. But I don't know how much
you want to talk about here. But I thought that
(00:24):
when you showed up today, since this is the first
time we've seen each other in person since your mom died,
I asked you if you wanted to talk about it
off Mike, because that would be something normally that we
would do. But I thought, given how people look up
to you and how much healing happens when people hear
you talk about your inner life, I thought maybe, and
(00:49):
I asked you if you wanted to talk about it
on Mike.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
So, how are things going good? You know, she had
Alzheimer's and the last year, in particular, last several months,
we're just a major decline. And so so she's had
Alzheimer's for probably five six years and was in memory
(01:13):
care and she's in New Jersey, near my brother. She
moved out of the house that you know, she had
forever and we grew up in a little less than
two years ago, into the memory care place, and you know,
she and then she just declined and lost consciousness and
slipped away about three weeks ago. So I think I
(01:36):
saw her last fall, and uh, she she could talk,
but it was all word salad, and she was very
slowed down and clearly cognitively, just really deteriorated and losing,
losing weight a lot, and uh, losing you know, control
(01:59):
of some parts of her body, and just really, you know,
I can't say that we were close, you know, and
we had a difficult relationship and you know, but but
just the sideline view of that fucking disease. Man, nobody
deserves to go through that, and she really suffered. And
(02:21):
I feel sad about that, you know. I guess I'm
glad she's out of that. I don't I don't know
what's better death or or that kind of decline. I
don't know, but she's not suffering. And my sibs, my
brother in particular, and well all of them really, but
Danny lived five minutes from her, uh you know, spent
(02:43):
a lot of time looking after her and you know,
managing her care. And my sister same and they're relieved.
They're sad, of course, but relieved. They they had a
different kind of relationship with her, and you know, like
(03:04):
that's just normal for kids. You grew up in a household.
But you know, for kids, four different experiences have grown up,
so mine meaning it was better, yeah in some ways
for Danny, yeah, that's yea, that's your younger brother. Yeah,
And for Lisa complicated, and for Peter complicated, but probably
better than for me. And I moved out here, you know,
(03:25):
three thousand miles, so there became a lot more distance.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
So but if we would have asked you when you
were fifteen, if you felt like close to your mom,
you would have said not really right.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I probably would have said yeah, but I wouldn't really
understood the question. I just would have understood the words
and spit out an answer. But you know that's that's
I mean.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Or because you guys talk, you and your three siblings,
and do they discount your experience.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
No, never, No, they're all very decent. In fact, I
have to say that's the best part of the whole
thing is I showed up a couple days before she passed,
and then my sister came, and then my brother Pete came,
and on the morning that she passed, we all got there.
We were taking turns with shifts and then but then
(04:21):
it looked like it was the end. So we all
showed up and we just sat around and talked and
it was lovely. They're fun they're funny, they're realistic. They
so that's that's like the best part of the whole
thing is that my sibs are just They're people I
(04:42):
would be friends with if I wasn't related to them,
but they are. They were like this when my dad passed.
They're just cooperative and supportive and decent and kind and realistic.
Like we actually had to talk about life growing up
and we don't share the same experience, but everybody is
(05:04):
respectful of one another and open and welcoming. And after
a funeral day after a funeral, we're hanging out and
we're gonna leave the next day, and Lisa and Danny
are like, well, now you don't have a reason. You
don't have excuse not to come home anymore. So I do.
I hope that, I hope that I see them more.
(05:26):
I think about that, and I think it's kind of
shitty that I would avoid going there because going there
would mean spending time with my mom and dad. Well,
my dad when he was alive and not just like
I'm allowed to like go see my brother or go
see my sister, and you know, like we're allowed to
have our own thing. You know, it doesn't have to be, but.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
It gets weird, right, Yeah, ten years ago, if you
didn't see your mom a significant amount of time. Plus
you don't go anywhere, So that's true. I'm travelphobic, so yeah, same.
So it's not like it's you're flying all over the
place and avoiding Philly. You're just not going anywhere. You're
(06:06):
not even going the town over from Seattle. Same. You know,
we're in the same boat there. It's compounded by the
fact that I podcast from home. So at least do
you leave the house to come here? I don't even
leave to work. But I'm curious. You don't have to
(06:26):
answer this question, obviously, but I'm curious because of your
own validation and needs that. Do your siblings understand or
validate or what's their explanation for having a different experience.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Oh well, two of them are making no bones about
the abuse, just pretty straightforward they were abused, and yeah,
nobody nobody Danny less, So I think youngest and also
his temperament is I don't know, Like he has capacity
to deal with stress, probably better than me, and so
(07:05):
he's he's just less affected. And plus they were you know,
he was the fourth of four, so I suspect that
their parenting attitudes had shifted some by the time he
came around.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
And it's well, research shows that parents get better with age,
not always, but on average.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Makes sense, learning curvenyl less stress.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
At work because you're more financially secure, you've parented before,
you probably have more resources.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
So yeah, yeah, and since so much of this shit,
the impactful stuff happens, you know, between birth and three years,
you know, that's a pretty crucial time.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
So yeah, so they recognize the abuse that you all experienced,
or you experienced all of us, and they just like
your older siblings, have just a different a pro to
that memory, like yeah, my mom was abusive, but I
(08:06):
still love her and she's still my mom, whereas you
took a different road.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah that's true, Yes they do.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Why is that do you think?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it might just
be some of its geography, Like when you live out here,
there's a natural distance that happens. Because so it could
be that I, as I live out here, I extricate
myself from that and then just create more distance around it.
(08:36):
And my only contact with them was you know, phone
calls every two or four weeks.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
And so we're also the only therapist in the group, right,
So you think that would affect things.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
My yeah, yeah, I hope it would. I mean, I
don't know, well, wait, wait, what do you mean.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Meaning that you've investigated your feelings in past and acknowledge
reality and don't deny and value yourself get more validation
than maybe your siblings would. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
There three of them are or two three of us
are very familiar with therapy, so I don't know. Maybe
I don't. I don't know why.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
But do you think you might have absorbed more of
it or like like zero to five, or or that
you got more of it?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
It's funny, you know. My opinion about that has been
that my brother being the oldest, Peter being the oldest
that you know, first went through the wall, gets the bloodiest.
But what he said a couple weeks ago was now, Bob,
you got it worse. And I don't know what he meant.
Maybe it's a temperament thing. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Well, it sounds like he means you got it worse.
It's just like empirically regardless of your temperament.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I didn't. I didn't.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
He would know he was there. He was there, he
was old enough to remember seeing you know.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah. Yeah, So anyways, there's a there's a tremendous relief.
There's a lot of laughing, some irreverence around the things
that happened, and just enjoyment.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah. I was glad to hear that you and your
siblings were and always have gotten along. We're there for
each other through this.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah yeah, yeah, And so that was you know, it
was funerals. It's not like they're fun, but we saw
people from when we were little, like my parents' church.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I don't know, I feel like funerals memorials are fun
in my family anyway.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Okay, then yes, it was a riot.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
They're a blast. There's like a ton of laughter and
you know, seeing old faces you haven't seen a lot
of time, telling old stories. And I would assume the
deceased would like it that way. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
I think my mom would have. I think she would
have enjoyed us sitting around while she was you know,
passing enjoying one of those company and you know whatever,
and so.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Do you believe in it afterlife?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
No?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Do your siblings? Yes? You did? Your mom yes?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Catholic? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah? And your dad died how many years ago?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Twelve years?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And how do you feel about her death? Her final passing?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Sad not for any loss that I suffered, but sad
for that the life that she had didn't afford her
a kind of piece that I would have wanted for.
My mom was wrecked, my dad, they're both wrecked. They're
(11:51):
pretty amazing for what they came out of and having
had no support and what I think was probably a
very troubled marriage.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
They had a rough childhood, both of them.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah. Yeah, abuse on my dad's side. I'm not sure
about my mother, but some really angry, hostile shit going
on in her growing up house with her parents, and
then they lived with her dad's parents. Because my family
(12:25):
owned a box making business. They made boxes like hat
boxes and that sort of thing. And when the technology
switched and people started doing the boxes that fold you know,
like you go to the clothing store and they put
it in a box, but the boxes just they have
to fold it up and then put it in and
it's not a rigid box. They didn't adapt and the
(12:45):
business failed and they ended up living in living with
my dad my grandpa's parents, which I think was a
really bad fit for my grandma, who I never met.
But I think that there was a lot of anger
and hostility and money, stress and.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Ply Your mom's family, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Probably alcoholism. And my mom is the youngest of four
and she's actually the last one to pass. I don't
have a lot of good feelings about my one aunt,
my other and I don't really know very well. And
my uncle, who I know even less. He passed maybe
twenty years ago, maybe a little more. I don't really
(13:27):
know him at all. They were fractured, like there were
many years my mom didn't years without speaking to them
because of you know, feuds and fractures, and you know,
they didn't know how to resolve things. Irish Catholic, they
know how to all a grudge. So I didn't grow
up with my aunts and uncles around. My dad's an
only child, and I didn't know my cousins. I still
(13:50):
don't know my cousins. I saw three of them at
the four of them, excuse me, at five of them anyways,
at my mom's funeral, but I hadn't seen three of them,
and probably probably since my when my father passed, I
probably saw him then. Yeah. So anyways, a lot of fracture,
(14:12):
and you know, for what they came out of they did,
they did remarkably well. They they pulled themselves up and
created you know, material and financial stability for themselves. And
they stayed together fifty years. I don't know if that's
a good or bad thing, but your parents, yeah, yeah,
(14:35):
they stayed and they uh yeah, anyways, but they both
have narcissism, had narcissism, and they were they didn't they
didn't know how to work with one another very well.
And I think they hurt each other a lot, hurt
(14:55):
you a lot, Yeah, they did.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, So I just always think about the story you
told all the podcast about pretty sure the podcast about
you had come home from school, like in late grade
school or something, and your mom made you a sandwich
(15:18):
or something.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Ye, thanks, sandwich, and you were.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Telling your mom about a girl from school.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
It was her birthday, and my mother wanted to know
her name. And I thought, if I tell the name,
she's going to know. I think the girl's cute, and
so I just kept my mouth shut.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
And then your mom started laying into you and asking
you weird questions like how come you won't tell me
her name? And you're just frozen, obviously afraid or at
the very least just being shy or something. And she
gets she takes it personally, and she starts to lay
into you, and you're just sitting there, stunned and silent,
(15:57):
with a big bite of egg sandwich in your mouth,
and the thing that I told you when you were
telling me that your mom died, as you can finally
swallow the savage. Yeah. I don't know if that makes
any sense, but that's how it feels to me.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
It makes sense.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
How so.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Well, there is relief with her passing. There's a sense
of responsibility lifted, so I can go east now, And
I mean I always could, but now I feel like
it's easier to go east and see my peeps and
(16:39):
spend time with them without the specter of that shit
hanging over and without being enraged with it, having no
place to go because I'm not going I can't. I
tried when I was in my twenties to make something
different between us, and that went nowhere, which in retrospect
is not a shock at all, in part because of me,
(17:03):
but but and also part because of their inability to transcend,
you know, their own pain and to see me as
an individual that's not them or not a reflection of them,
and just my own whatever. And they couldn't do it.
And I wasn't necessarily artful in my attempt, but it
(17:26):
was an attempt, and not a very welcome one. So
you know, that kind of scar tissue whatever, I don't
have to that's gone. It's gone. So if I want
to go see my brother or my sister, my other brother,
I can do that now freely and easily, and and
(17:48):
enjoy their company because I love them. They're they're really
nice people. They're really decent folks. And there their partners,
very decent people. So and and kids, there's a lot,
there's six kids now kids. The youngest is senior in
high school, you know, but lovely young people, really nice folks. Yeah,
(18:11):
So I can. I can do that now and more
more easily and freely.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
So yeah, is there any sort of liberation in side
your soul, inside your self esteem or your sense of
agency or something healing something? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
It's a really interesting question. Yeah, although I don't understand
it yet, there is So the last three weeks what's
been on my mind is assertiveness and autonomy quite a bit,
and both a desire for it. I want to be
more assertive and autonomous, and also some ignorance about when
(18:52):
passivity shows up and it's many forms and disguises, and uh,
fear of being more assertive and autonomous. So like we were,
we went and saw some friends last night for dinner
in Edmunds. I left, I left Seattle and one of
our friend's birthday and so we had some cards there
(19:16):
at home to pick from, and I actually chose one.
I said I want to do this card, and Colin
was like, yeah, great, that card's fine. But it's the
kind of thing where I would just automatically defer to
her or really anybody else's choice without expressing any desire
of my own. And if she had said no, I
don't want to do that card, to do this other
card or whatever, I mean, I wasn't gonna fight. I mean,
(19:36):
it's not something, but to actually exercise a preference and
speak it is hopefully a growing skill, though my therapist
would probably be like, dude, I've been trying to get
you to do this for eight years, which is true.
It's true. Most every session this is a focus. So
but I'm wondering if I said to him, oh, you're
(19:59):
looking your chop on this one because of sartenness of
a time we came up in a recession right after
my mother passed, and I'm like, well, here's what I want.
And he's like, huh. And I said, oh, you're looking
your chops because she just died and I'm talking about
this and he and he just kind of laughed, I think,
and it was a little bit funny. So, well, here's
(20:20):
what I'm wondering, if if with her passing somehow this
is just a part of me that's just freeing up
to take more risk.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, yeah, why, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, maybe just like the specter of being judged or
rejected even though you know, like I haven't really talked
to her in three or four years.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
And yeah, but you know, we can't ever dis lodge
ourself from underneath one's thumb, right, yes, even if they're
dead sometimes but sometimes with that, yeah, it feels less.
So I'll wonder if.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Is that true for you, Like have you had that
experience when somebody passes. No, Well, I don't think that's
going to be likely true for you, because you're very
good at exercising your agency.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Well, I've never been underneath someone's thumb.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
That helps.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
I think that's the key. But but you know, maybe
there's nuances. I'm so sorry. You know. Another I think
possibility is that you're the top of the family tree,
if you will, you know what I mean. Your parents'
generation is gone and now you're that that top generation
(21:41):
who was still alive, and there's something transitional about that.
But I also wonder if the intensity or the requirements
of the emotional experience of grieving together with your siblings,
the concentrating nature of it liberated you independent of your
(22:03):
mom passing. You know, it's being in your feelings, in
you allowed to be. You might have facilitated some generalization
of that feeling outside of that.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, it could be. I hope it continues, because as
scary as it is to express preference, I want to. Yeah,
even saying that is scary.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, And I've seen the sine wave of this with you,
you know, maybe overall in an upward direction. But I
remember when you went to the writing retreat and you
got back, and I was a good six to nine
months of you being very much in your agency, not
(22:49):
at not anything close to being too much in your agency,
just like the real Bob really is the way that
I see it. And then the slow kind of dissent again,
and then there was another uptick. I can't remember what
it was. It wasn't as long or as big, but
(23:12):
maybe this also is. So there's you know something about
that kind of experience, the intense emotional group experience that
kind of pushes you past the typical defenses and modes
that you get into or something. Well, you know, I
(23:39):
personally have a lot of rage at your mom, and
I that hasn't changed with her passing, and I also
am hearing I think that she might improved on the model,
(24:02):
so to speak, regarding her childhood, but I don't know.
Even if you're suffering, it's not hard to love and
make your child feel safe most of the time, and
so this doesn't change that.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, it's funny, I remark to my clients frequently because
many of my clients come out of trauma and abuse,
and many of them are parents, and almost to a person,
they all impress me because they're capable of raising their
children in wisdom and care and all the good stuff,
even though they don't have a personal model of how
(24:46):
to do that. It's really lovely and remarkable.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah. You know, if you've been through tremendous trauma growing up,
you're probably gonna make some mistakes. Sure, the parents that
I think that you're referring to, typically in my experience,
they'll come around and apologize. Which did your mom ever apologize?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
She can't do that. Neither one of them could do it.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Now, when I was twenty two, I was first sort
of yeah, I suppose really the first time I was
in psychotherapy and I was talking about this and sort
of confronting inside myself like that was abusive that whole
first nineteen years. And so wrote a letter to my
(25:37):
dad about some of his behavior, and he wrote back
a very strange I probably told you this. He wrote
back something very strange. First off, he took the letter
I wrote and cut it into strips and taped it
to paper, and then wrote comments beneath each strip of
you know, paragraph or whatever, comments about I still have
(25:57):
that letter, I should take it out and look at it.
His comments about what I had written, and he didn't
deny any of it. It wasn't like he was saying no,
that never happened. But what he did say was, I
don't know what you want me to do with this information,
which is sort of interesting. If you hit somebody with
your car and you knock them down and they're on
the ground and they're writhing in pain, you're getting a
(26:17):
lot of information. But it isn't much question about what
to do. It's just like fucking call nine to one
and get him to the side and say you're sorry, right,
Like it's pretty fucking easy. Yeah, right, So you know
then I didn't understand. I mean, I don't even know
if I understand it now, but I didn't understand how
simple that is. But the best he could do was
just to say I acknowledge that this is true, and
(26:40):
I don't know what you want me to do with it,
which I want to say, fuck you, man. Yeah, fucking
just fucking say you're sorry, like if or say you're
not if you're not, but whatever, right, Like you know,
I mean, guy had four kids and he was twenty
nine years old, with no equipment, no psychological wherewithal, and
(27:01):
you know that was the day when you know, the
kids leave the house and they run around all day.
It's not like they're you know, we're sort of out
of sight, out of mind. And so, you know, I
feel bad for him because he's Catholic and he would
bid off more than he could chew because he's a
(27:22):
rule follower. Right, So they say you're not allowed to
use birth control, right, that's a fucking blew his head
when my mother insisted, but he relented, like when she said, nope,
we're going on the pill, he breathed and accepted influence,
which I'm not sure really means that he came to
(27:43):
a conclusion on his own so much has just followed
her lead because you know, it's hard for him to
be in his autonomy and agency. So I don't really know.
I can't ask him now. And anyways, he he he
couldn't he couldn't see beyond his own pain, right, and
(28:04):
he was in a lot of it. And yeah, I mean,
do you ever think about this, like I think how
good it is to be alive now with the degree
of psychological sophistication there is now. And so when you
find a therapist, you find somebody that has skills that
(28:24):
are fifty years at more advanced than they were in
the seventies. Now. I don't know if that's true. But
when I think about that, I think my folks who
had access to therapy. Though I couldn't say anything about
the quality of the therapist. I don't know any of them.
I sort of think, you know, did they have available
(28:47):
to them something optimal? And I don't know the answer
to that, though object relation has been around a long
time and people have been good at it for a
long time.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah, that's a good question. It's impossible to know. My
tense given that when we were in grad school in
the nineties and we were exposed to those therapists that
would be practicing in the seventies, is that there's a
similar Bell curve of competence or general wisdom or something.
(29:17):
But it just looked different. It was across more psychoanalytic circles.
You could have a psychoanalytic oriented therapist that was pretty
bad and also one that was pretty good. I mean,
Irvin Yallam was practicing in the seventies and he is
arguably at least psychodynamically oriented, you know, but in today's
(29:40):
world there's a similar Bell curve, but the theories are
different in terms of how they identify. You know, you
can be a CBT therapist and be extremely wise and
caring and healing, and you can be a psychoanalytic therapist
and be a dunce. You know. So it's this just
(30:03):
you know, my sense of things. Yeah, But the thing
that they had were priests, and some of them are
some of the best listeners of all time. And I'm
sure that today and back then, especially because those were
the people that people went to, it's that they would
(30:26):
have some way of helping your parents reorient towards the
light and away from abuse and toward healing that was
available to them.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
My mom faith very important to her and mostly on
her own. And after I was born, she goes to
the priest and says, I don't want to have any
more kids, and the priest says to her, motherfucker. He's like, well,
it's your duty to have sex with your husband when
he wants it. Complete bunk and birth controls the sin
(31:02):
more bunk. So she actually quit the formal church and
they were still they were in a like a hippie
underground church, right, Like the person that officiated her wedding
was ordained a priest in their hippie church, a woman
(31:22):
that was back in the mid late seventies. So I
hadn't seen that lady in thirty five or forty years.
It's sorry the other day.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Anyways, your parents got married in the late seventies.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
No, No, my parents got married in nineteen sixty one
or two. Yeah, but they dropped out of the formal
Catholic church, you know, like Catholics. The way it's supposed
to be is wherever you live, that's where you go
to church. So you're in a parish, right they call
them that. I don't think they might call them that,
but yeah, I think they do. And so that's like
(31:55):
a county, like a church county, and you go to
the church, but I mean that you're just going to
the like local dude. It has nothing to do with
quality control or you know, careful shopping. It's just this
is where you go. And so they they she quit
and after that they I don't know how they got
(32:17):
involved in this, you know, sort of underground Catholic hippie church.
Where we met at an American this back when they
made us go to church, met in the American Legion
Hall like a couple of towns over or we were
in the basement of this elementary school.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Yeah. Same, So I think it was kind of a
movement at the time.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, makes sense.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
We were non denominational because there's less there's fewer Catholics
out here in Seattle. But it was the same that
we met in some hall that they rented on Sunday
morning and right, and I would call it a hippie church.
I mean, it wasn't hippie hippie like nudity and drugs
and stuff, but it was baby boomers, young in their twenties,
(33:02):
breaking away from their parents' old, stuffy religion more humanistic.
So was this new hippie church more likely available to
help your parents with their emotions? Yeah? Yeah, but not
the original.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
And ultimately that church was the source of a great
deal of marital stress, which I'll say for another time.
It fun to talk about, but so I don't know
if it was a good fit. But at some point
they stopped making us go, which was fucking awesome because
A they leave the house on Sunday morning and so
they're not around awesome, and B the three Stooges were
(33:44):
on on Sunday mornings and so we used to just
watch the Three fucking Stooges for fucking hours. It was great.
So did you ever go back to church? Not in
any kind of really.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
How old were you when that happened?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I think I was nine or ten?
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
My family went to church every sing my whole time,
my whole life.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Growing up, like through high school. Yeah, and you went
with them every Sunday.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
When just did you stop? You stopped doing it.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
At some point when I went to college.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
And what was that like?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Was that like a good thing or a neutral thing or.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Multifaceted? I was pretty into church growing up, and I
was really a you know, the youth group was actually
a big part of my life. I was invited to
go to youth group but resisted a lot. But they
actually what I would call to be a little bit
(34:40):
of a coercive tactic. Or for my memory, I think
they literally just showed up at my house with my
parents' permission and said, come out with us, you know,
just socialize, come to Dairy Queen with us or something,
and or or or my mom agreed that I would go.
(35:01):
I just remember going, I don't want to, okay, And
I ended up really loving this group. Yeah, and I
looked up. I was one of the younger kids in
the youth group, and there were these other teens that
were like four years older, and I really looked up
to them. They were super cool. They were what I
(35:23):
guess today we would call like hipsters or goth or something.
But in the eighties they listened to a lot of
European music, you know, And a lot of my music
tastes actually comes from them. A lot of the music
that they listened to I had never heard before and
became exposed to. And and I don't know, I just
(35:46):
I still think about that older kind of crowd and
their sense of humor and stuff. And we would sit
around in a circle and sing songs and we would
talk about our feelings, and there would be God in
Jesus and stuff and scripture. But that was pretty minor,
and the youth pastors seemed old. But I think they
(36:07):
were like twenty, you know what I mean. And we
would do these missions, so to speak, not like the Mormons,
but we would do these charitable trips where we would
help the disadvantage. We went to Mexico one time and
built these kind of what do you call it, the
(36:33):
organization that hamity, yeah, habitat, and it's sort of like
it might have even been that. I don't know, but
there were these very simple but sturdy structures that replaced
these very ramshackle houses that these very poor people lived
(36:53):
in Mexico. And it was very formative, you know, to
be twelve years old and to see these people and
to see them being happy. That was a thing. Like
these families were happy. They had nothing, just rags on
their backs and a plastic sheet that protected them from
(37:14):
the sun at night or you know, in the sun
at night. But you know, like some shelter and the
kids are running around having a good time. Now. You know,
things weren't great in their life. They were without any
services and education or power or protections, you know. But anyway,
it was. It was a very formative time and that
(37:38):
lasted through the end of high school. I mean I
was a little less involved later on, but I was
still involved. But going to college, I it was such
an overwhelming experience being in the frat and you know,
imagine living in a on a block on a street
where you have literally will estimate, like a thousand kids
(38:03):
between the age of eighteen and twenty one, and everyone's
horny and drunk and also kind of smart because you know,
you dubbed attracts the smart crow and ready to party
and ready to have experiences and ready to meet people
(38:25):
and ready to go, ready to be creative, ready to
have experiences, ready to march. You know, we would march politically,
you know. And there was just a lot of things,
and I was in such a whirlwind that everything got
(38:46):
pushed to the side. It was kind of a whirlwind.
But anyway, there's an email that kind of pertains that
I thought we should read. But let's take a break.
What do you say right now? All right, we're back
(39:06):
from the break. I mean, most of all, Bob, I
just want to say, you know, I'm sorry for what
your parents did to you. I'm sure it's way even
more complicated than you could possibly describe, right, all the
ins and outs. And I guess one of the things
(39:27):
that I'm observing, given your reaction talking to you today,
given my experience with grieving, is that you grieved her
decades ago in a way, you know, and as especially
she entered the more advanced stages of Alzheimer's, you were
(39:48):
pretty realistic about well, she's kind of gone already and
whatever sort of bits of attachment and sadness you would
have had, either you gave up a long time ago
and felt or it was sort of piecemealed over time.
But you seem generally at peace, and you did when
(40:08):
we were talking when you were in Philly.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Whereas I think for other people when they go through
what I would call a complicated relationship loss, there's more
unresolved issues, more hopes that are finally dashed, right, Like
you don't seem to have that. You don't seem to
(40:36):
be like, oh, I held out hope that she would have.
You've processed that you grieve, that you distance yourself. You
grieved the loss of not only a childhood that you deserved,
but also the mom that you wished you had or
something you know, a long long time ago. Through all
(40:57):
the therapy and the boundary, you know, there's a lot
of moments that you had to bump up against it
going home when you were still in the kind of
the limbo in your twenties and thirties and trying to
make it work. And you know, you talked about trying
to reorient your relationship with your mom in your twenties,
and the pain and anger and the venting and the
(41:17):
processing and the shame and the building yourself back up again.
That all happened way long ago, and so as she
was fading away, the last bits of your grief were expressed,
which it wasn't much really, and then when she finally passed,
it wasn't a huge blow.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
No, it's not. Yeah, yeah, I don't really feel bad
about that. I think, you know, we have a cookie cutter,
you know, version of what is supposed to look like
when somebody dies, But our responses are the full wings
of responses. Is is what's normal.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
So yeah, it goes with that saying. But I guess
I'll say it that there's a contingency of our society,
pretty big one that says that universally, it's disrespectful to
speak ill of the dead, particularly of your mom, or
to turn away from your mom. You know, moms gives
so much, this kind of thing, and it's just like,
(42:23):
either you've never been through what these people have been through,
or you have some sort of religious political agenda that
I just have no time for. Yeah, a child's love
is earned, and most parents earn it. And if you
don't fucking earn it, then you don't fucking deserve it.
(42:45):
Here's an email long term annual patron from New Jersey, Jersey. Interesting.
She says, Hi, doctor Kirk and Bob I had an
upbringing similar to Bob's, and I now have complex PTSD
and disorganized attachment by the way, I the top of So,
I just finished my book and sent it to you
(43:05):
bomb a couple of days ago to review. And let's
talk about that for.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
A congratulations, fantastic accomplishment.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah, how many years? Ten to eleven, eleven years, maybe longer,
I don't know. Wow. Well, it's mainly a product of
just how shitty of a writer I am and how
long it took me to develop the ability to write.
It's kind of weird because I've said I'm never writing
another fucking book because it takes too long and I
have other things I want to do. I would like
(43:36):
to write again, but there's too many other things I
want to do, too many deep dives. Really is the
kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Well, it's a testament to perseverance.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
And completionism, you know, like I always complete what I
set out to do, which is a blessing and a curse,
but also I'm passionate about the topic. I'm also passionate
about the whole thing because it's not just about the
(44:07):
narrow topic of grief the way people usually talk about it.
When I get into the book, it basically is about
life and death and healing and love and connection and
attachments and shame and emotion and society and culture and
all the things history, genealogy, the very meaning of life
(44:33):
really is kind of expressed through the whole thing. And
the book is this kind of weird combo I think
of academic and personal and therapeutic, and it's just it's
kind of like the podcast in a way.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
It's your wheelhouse.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, so yeah, it feels good to be done. If
no one buys it, I you know, I'll ninety five
percent of my enjoyment will have been met already because
I don't know, I cried multiple times while writing. Sometimes
(45:12):
I would even mention it. I would say, well, that
one made me cry or something. So I don't know, Like,
but I really appreciate your looking it over because you
helped me with my last book, and you spend a
lot of time and effort and you give good advice.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
It's a good book if you're looking for a book
about supervision. It is a very good book.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Thanks, so yeah, and I'm my current thought is that
the feedback that I get from you and a couple
other editors. Colin Miller actually, for those who know, he's
is on the podcast occasionally Call In with Colin we
(45:58):
call it. He is an editor as well, and so
he's going to look it over. And then there's another
colleague named Christine who she's going to look it over
as well. She's a writer and a clinician, so she
knows about these and she's written about grief herself, so
she is a good resource in that way. But it's
(46:19):
also pretty personal. I mean I get a lot into
my own personal experiences, you know, And there have been
some interesting stories because as I talk about individual people
in my past, I feel compelled to reach out to
those people, including you, by the way, for permission to
(46:40):
talk about it, you know, and be like, is it okay?
Then I'm telling this story about you, by the way,
and they will always say yes. And then and then
I ask, you know, do you have any clarifications? And
there's been some huge revelations from this fantastic yeah, and
some reconnections you know, so that's been interesting to experience
(47:04):
but also to document, you know, say, like by the way,
I reached out for permission and let me give you
an update on that, you know that kind of anyway.
But uh, why was I talking about that?
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Because you've finished the damn thing just the other day. Yeah,
and it's on your mind and it's fantastic. Oh and
I think that whoever wrote in mentioned something about.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Oh, oh, so thank you. I the How so I've been,
as people have heard me talk i'd nausem about, is
I've been trying to get better work life balanced back
the past couple of years, a few years and about
a year and a half ago, I finally got to
(47:50):
a point where I could sort of breathe, and with
that breathing, I decided to allocate basically all that free
time to finishing the book. So for the past couple
of years, I've been spending entire days, you know, or
weeks at a time, because it requires that kind of time,
(48:15):
especially when you have citations and references and research and
da da da, and so I have been doing that.
But now that that's done, now I'm really free. Yeah,
so I want to do deep dives and two of
the top deep dives I want to do is one
(48:36):
complex PTSD and the other one limerents and three would
be psychopathy any social So that's why I can talk
about so Hi doctor and Bob. I had an upbringing
similar to Bob's, and I now have complex PTSD and
disorganized attachment. I decided to go no contact with both
of my parents, and even though it is the right
(48:57):
decision for me, quite honestly, it sucks. My dad is
recently sick and recently almost died, and I upheld my
no contact decision with my parents. But I am really
warm and empathetic and compassionate, and sometimes I feel like
my no contact decision is the wrong one. It feels
like I am going against how much I value empathy
(49:18):
and relationships. All I want to do is to be
with my family. But as soon as my dad's health
scare happened, even without speaking to my parents directly, I
had a massive uptick in PTSD symptoms. I know for
my well being, I can't talk to my parents at
least right now. What advice do you have to get
myself through this? It has caused me so much guilt
(49:38):
and grief. Thank you so much, and I appreciate you
both very much. Also as a fellow Penn State grad Bie, Hey,
rid On, Bob is right, Nitny Lyons over Huskies, sorry,
doctor Kirk And of email, well, Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
They're coming, Penn State's coming in fall of twenty twenty six,
and we are going to the game.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
And I don't well, we'll see how you Dub does
this year. I'm not confident, but you never know.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
We're going to the game and you're gonna wear purple
and I'm gonna wear blue, and we're gonna have some
beer in a good time. Yeah, that's the point.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
Well, I have a whole big frat group of guys
that go all the time. Great, and so we can
actually we can get tickets with them, okay, great yeah yeah,
oh our accountant, yeah yeah, our accounts so yeah, yeah, yeah.
I like Darrell and we can do the prefunk and
the post funk at the house anyway.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
So.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
What advice do you have getting So it kind of
sounds like she is at a point where you might
have been like twenty years ago or something. So what
advice do you have?
Speaker 2 (50:44):
Well, this is tricky. I mean, I don't think that
I never went no contact with my folks, and when
they each did get sick, I you know, I was
around to some extent, not very much, sort of minimally.
So that said, I think it sort of depends on
what you want, Like when you're asking for advice, do
(51:08):
you what do you want? Do you want like relief
from pain that you're having when you don't have contact
with them, or do you want to have your PTSD
symptoms abate enough so that you can have contact with them.
And by the way, having contact with them has nothing
to do with having empathy you. This is what struck
(51:28):
me when I read this, was how they seem to
be juxtaposed as I'm an empathic person, but I'm shutting
the door on my parents, So what a dick I am.
That's how I read it, and I don't buy that
at all. What I think, what I actually think is happening,
is there's a part of you that is really afraid
of your stance and afraid of just standing in your
(51:49):
own space and doing what you need. And the way
it rebels is it says you're an asshole who doesn't
have empathy for your parents even when they're sick as shit.
What's wrong with you. I think it's just an artifact
of defense and it's no big deal. And I could
be wrong, but if I'm not wrong, then it's no
big deal. It's just lately I've been thinking about this shit.
(52:10):
It's like a shark's tooth. Sharks teeth are really interesting
in that they point inward. So if you get bit
by a shark and you pull your, say, your arm out,
what happened is the teeth will dig in in your
arm doesn't want to get dinged up some more. So
what do you do?
Speaker 1 (52:25):
You go?
Speaker 2 (52:26):
You have to go into the shark's mouth in order
to not have teeth sticking in you, and of course
that's death right. So what I think is that humans
do something or you know, maybe not human, would we
do something similar in that when we are going against
long held, perhaps erroneous beliefs about what we're supposed to be,
(52:46):
When when we buck the trend, then our brain is
going to throw up storms and threads and anything it
can think of to get us to toe the line,
because it's to your brain, it's just about it's what
do I gotta do survive this? And so for me,
having quote empathy is a survival skill. But it isn't
(53:08):
in my case, really empathy. It's just a way to
survive this fucking nonsense and chaos and danger. So and
in my case it's closet narcissism. So you know, what
are you gonna do?
Speaker 1 (53:21):
Right?
Speaker 2 (53:21):
But I don't think that you attacking yourself simply because
you notice this thing come up. No, sorry, I'm not
saying it right. What I mean to say is I
don't think that I think you should consider is this
really empathy because it might not be.
Speaker 1 (53:43):
Dude, that makes sense, h yeah, total sense right now,
right right. I mean you could say empathy deserves to
go a lot of inter directions, including yourself.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
Yeah, you could say that.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
But I think another way of saying what you're saying
is that it might not be empathy or compassion as
much as it's shame.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah, thank you. That's a nice, very distinct way to say.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
There's a there's a feeling of within of like you're
supposed to care or express care, and we can mistake
that feeling for compassion when possibility it's just shame. It's
the shame and internalized depression, you know, internalized notions of
you must be nice to your parents no matter what. Yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Be kind to yourself at the least whether you do
anything with your folks. Maybe it's just another matter, but
there is no benefit to giving yourself a hard time
about whatever your stance happens to be.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
And you know, one can have compassion without exposing oneself.
You can in your mind and your heart maybe even
express it in some way, maybe through a card or
something if you felt that was safe enough, or compassion
from afar or something, but it doesn't mean that you
(55:12):
have to be right by their side exposing yourself to
being traumatized again. The other thing that I'll say is
that any child who you know, adult child who draws
a boundary with a parent, I've never met an adult
child that drew a boundary with a parent that didn't
deserve to draw a boundary with their parent, people who,
(55:34):
in fact, it's almost always the opposite. I'm always thinking
that person deserves to draw a boundary with their parent,
and they're not. People who draw boundaries with parents have
tried everything under the sun before they drew a boundary
with their parent. So now I'm sure there are some
(55:54):
isolated cases, like if a child was traumatized by the
other parent and had a general personality disorder that caused
them to target the other parent. You know, I could
see that something. But generally speaking, you know, if someone
doesn't have a significant personality disorder, but even if they
(56:14):
do honestly and they've drawn a boundary with the parent,
all I ninety nine percent of my assumption is that
that decision was made after they after they gave it
too much time and effort to not draw boundary. So
my guess is long term annual patron from New Jersey,
(56:36):
you what I hear is you deserve to draw a
boundary years before you actually did so. I'm guessing there's
no basis for guilt or shame at all. Compassion and
love from one's children is earned. It's not a right.
(57:00):
Parents aren't entitled to love from us. They earn it.
I love my parents because they earned it ten times over.
I don't just give it to them because I'm a
good person. I give it to them because I want to.
(57:21):
You know, it just happens. I don't have to force it.
That's what you know. That's what good enough parents get
from their adult children is not love out of obligation
or duty, but love because it just it just feels right.
It just comes out of me. It's just it's natural.
(57:43):
So if it's not coming out of you naturally, then
don't force yourself or shame yourself into it. They don't
deserve it, And fuck them, honestly, really, just fuck them. Fine,
they had a bad childhood, Fuck them. I don't give
a fuck. The many people who have had bad childhoods,
(58:03):
who you know, with mistakes make up for it somehow
validate it, apologize something. And if parents still do that,
then fuck them. Fuck them. So fucking angry at these people.
I mean, how hard is it to love your child
and apologize? Man? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
I apologize all the time. I don't have kids, but
I apologize to Colleen because I'm sometimes the nightmare but
it's not her fault, and so I constantly make I'm
not quite the same mistake over and over again, but
I make the mistake frequently, and I'm very fast and
good at saying I'm sorry, and not just like I'm sorry,
(58:47):
so you don't have to suck it up now because
I said I'm sorry, but like, actually care about whatever
might be helpful for her to feel whole again. So
it's not enough to stay sorry. It's like, what do
you need? What can I do? How can I be?
How can I make this right with you? Or how
can I help you heal from or resolve you know,
(59:09):
the bullshit thing I just did or said or whatever
it is that you know whatever, It's not hard, No,
it's fucking easy. And actually I learned this one from you.
It feels good to do it, so good.
Speaker 1 (59:21):
It feels good to crest the hill and plan to
do it. Yeah, just the thought of, oh, yeah I
should probably apologize, and right then I feel better. I
feel Oh, I feel so much better now, just the
thought and then you know, then apologize, bah bah blah.
(59:42):
But yeah, everyone wins.
Speaker 2 (59:45):
Yeah, everybody wins.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
Yeah, well that does it for that episde psychology see Ott.
Everyone out there, please take care of yourself because you
deserve it.
So, Bob, your mom died. Yeah, And I don't know
if the listeners know the details that you've talked about
on the podcast about your mom and your current relationship
and your past relationship. But I don't know how much
you want to talk about here. But I thought that
(00:24):
when you showed up today, since this is the first
time we've seen each other in person since your mom died,
I asked you if you wanted to talk about it
off Mike, because that would be something normally that we
would do. But I thought, given how people look up
to you and how much healing happens when people hear
you talk about your inner life, I thought maybe, and
(00:49):
I asked you if you wanted to talk about it
on Mike.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
So, how are things going good? You know, she had
Alzheimer's and the last year, in particular, last several months,
we're just a major decline. And so so she's had
Alzheimer's for probably five six years and was in memory
(01:13):
care and she's in New Jersey, near my brother. She
moved out of the house that you know, she had
forever and we grew up in a little less than
two years ago, into the memory care place, and you know,
she and then she just declined and lost consciousness and
slipped away about three weeks ago. So I think I
(01:36):
saw her last fall, and uh, she she could talk,
but it was all word salad, and she was very
slowed down and clearly cognitively, just really deteriorated and losing,
losing weight a lot, and uh, losing you know, control
(01:59):
of some parts of her body, and just really, you know,
I can't say that we were close, you know, and
we had a difficult relationship and you know, but but
just the sideline view of that fucking disease. Man, nobody
deserves to go through that, and she really suffered. And
(02:21):
I feel sad about that, you know. I guess I'm
glad she's out of that. I don't I don't know
what's better death or or that kind of decline. I
don't know, but she's not suffering. And my sibs, my
brother in particular, and well all of them really, but
Danny lived five minutes from her, uh you know, spent
(02:43):
a lot of time looking after her and you know,
managing her care. And my sister same and they're relieved.
They're sad, of course, but relieved. They they had a
different kind of relationship with her, and you know, like
(03:04):
that's just normal for kids. You grew up in a household.
But you know, for kids, four different experiences have grown up,
so mine meaning it was better, yeah in some ways
for Danny, yeah, that's yea, that's your younger brother. Yeah,
And for Lisa complicated, and for Peter complicated, but probably
better than for me. And I moved out here, you know,
(03:25):
three thousand miles, so there became a lot more distance.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
So but if we would have asked you when you
were fifteen, if you felt like close to your mom,
you would have said not really right.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I probably would have said yeah, but I wouldn't really
understood the question. I just would have understood the words
and spit out an answer. But you know that's that's
I mean.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Or because you guys talk, you and your three siblings,
and do they discount your experience.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
No, never, No, they're all very decent. In fact, I
have to say that's the best part of the whole
thing is I showed up a couple days before she passed,
and then my sister came, and then my brother Pete came,
and on the morning that she passed, we all got there.
We were taking turns with shifts and then but then
(04:21):
it looked like it was the end. So we all
showed up and we just sat around and talked and
it was lovely. They're fun they're funny, they're realistic. They
so that's that's like the best part of the whole
thing is that my sibs are just They're people I
(04:42):
would be friends with if I wasn't related to them,
but they are. They were like this when my dad passed.
They're just cooperative and supportive and decent and kind and realistic.
Like we actually had to talk about life growing up
and we don't share the same experience, but everybody is
(05:04):
respectful of one another and open and welcoming. And after
a funeral day after a funeral, we're hanging out and
we're gonna leave the next day, and Lisa and Danny
are like, well, now you don't have a reason. You
don't have excuse not to come home anymore. So I do.
I hope that, I hope that I see them more.
(05:26):
I think about that, and I think it's kind of
shitty that I would avoid going there because going there
would mean spending time with my mom and dad. Well,
my dad when he was alive and not just like
I'm allowed to like go see my brother or go
see my sister, and you know, like we're allowed to
have our own thing. You know, it doesn't have to be, but.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
It gets weird, right, Yeah, ten years ago, if you
didn't see your mom a significant amount of time. Plus
you don't go anywhere, So that's true. I'm travelphobic, so yeah, same.
So it's not like it's you're flying all over the
place and avoiding Philly. You're just not going anywhere. You're
(06:06):
not even going the town over from Seattle. Same. You know,
we're in the same boat there. It's compounded by the
fact that I podcast from home. So at least do
you leave the house to come here? I don't even
leave to work. But I'm curious. You don't have to
(06:26):
answer this question, obviously, but I'm curious because of your
own validation and needs that. Do your siblings understand or
validate or what's their explanation for having a different experience.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Oh well, two of them are making no bones about
the abuse, just pretty straightforward they were abused, and yeah,
nobody nobody Danny less, So I think youngest and also
his temperament is I don't know, Like he has capacity
to deal with stress, probably better than me, and so
(07:05):
he's he's just less affected. And plus they were you know,
he was the fourth of four, so I suspect that
their parenting attitudes had shifted some by the time he
came around.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
And it's well, research shows that parents get better with age,
not always, but on average.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Makes sense, learning curvenyl less stress.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
At work because you're more financially secure, you've parented before,
you probably have more resources.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
So yeah, yeah, and since so much of this shit,
the impactful stuff happens, you know, between birth and three years,
you know, that's a pretty crucial time.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
So yeah, so they recognize the abuse that you all experienced,
or you experienced all of us, and they just like
your older siblings, have just a different a pro to
that memory, like yeah, my mom was abusive, but I
(08:06):
still love her and she's still my mom, whereas you
took a different road.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah that's true, Yes they do.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Why is that do you think?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it might just
be some of its geography, Like when you live out here,
there's a natural distance that happens. Because so it could
be that I, as I live out here, I extricate
myself from that and then just create more distance around it.
(08:36):
And my only contact with them was you know, phone
calls every two or four weeks.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
And so we're also the only therapist in the group, right,
So you think that would affect things.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
My yeah, yeah, I hope it would. I mean, I
don't know, well, wait, wait, what do you mean.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Meaning that you've investigated your feelings in past and acknowledge
reality and don't deny and value yourself get more validation
than maybe your siblings would. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
There three of them are or two three of us
are very familiar with therapy, so I don't know. Maybe
I don't. I don't know why.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
But do you think you might have absorbed more of
it or like like zero to five, or or that
you got more of it?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
It's funny, you know. My opinion about that has been
that my brother being the oldest, Peter being the oldest
that you know, first went through the wall, gets the bloodiest.
But what he said a couple weeks ago was now, Bob,
you got it worse. And I don't know what he meant.
Maybe it's a temperament thing. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Well, it sounds like he means you got it worse.
It's just like empirically regardless of your temperament.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I didn't. I didn't.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
He would know he was there. He was there, he
was old enough to remember seeing you know.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah. Yeah, So anyways, there's a there's a tremendous relief.
There's a lot of laughing, some irreverence around the things
that happened, and just enjoyment.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah. I was glad to hear that you and your
siblings were and always have gotten along. We're there for
each other through this.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah yeah, yeah, And so that was you know, it
was funerals. It's not like they're fun, but we saw
people from when we were little, like my parents' church.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I don't know, I feel like funerals memorials are fun
in my family anyway.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Okay, then yes, it was a riot.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
They're a blast. There's like a ton of laughter and
you know, seeing old faces you haven't seen a lot
of time, telling old stories. And I would assume the
deceased would like it that way. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
I think my mom would have. I think she would
have enjoyed us sitting around while she was you know,
passing enjoying one of those company and you know whatever,
and so.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Do you believe in it afterlife?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
No?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Do your siblings? Yes? You did? Your mom yes?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Catholic? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah? And your dad died how many years ago?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Twelve years?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And how do you feel about her death? Her final passing?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Sad not for any loss that I suffered, but sad
for that the life that she had didn't afford her
a kind of piece that I would have wanted for.
My mom was wrecked, my dad, they're both wrecked. They're
(11:51):
pretty amazing for what they came out of and having
had no support and what I think was probably a
very troubled marriage.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
They had a rough childhood, both of them.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah. Yeah, abuse on my dad's side. I'm not sure
about my mother, but some really angry, hostile shit going
on in her growing up house with her parents, and
then they lived with her dad's parents. Because my family
(12:25):
owned a box making business. They made boxes like hat
boxes and that sort of thing. And when the technology
switched and people started doing the boxes that fold you know,
like you go to the clothing store and they put
it in a box, but the boxes just they have
to fold it up and then put it in and
it's not a rigid box. They didn't adapt and the
(12:45):
business failed and they ended up living in living with
my dad my grandpa's parents, which I think was a
really bad fit for my grandma, who I never met.
But I think that there was a lot of anger
and hostility and money, stress and.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Ply Your mom's family, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Probably alcoholism. And my mom is the youngest of four
and she's actually the last one to pass. I don't
have a lot of good feelings about my one aunt,
my other and I don't really know very well. And
my uncle, who I know even less. He passed maybe
twenty years ago, maybe a little more. I don't really
(13:27):
know him at all. They were fractured, like there were
many years my mom didn't years without speaking to them
because of you know, feuds and fractures, and you know,
they didn't know how to resolve things. Irish Catholic, they
know how to all a grudge. So I didn't grow
up with my aunts and uncles around. My dad's an
only child, and I didn't know my cousins. I still
(13:50):
don't know my cousins. I saw three of them at
the four of them, excuse me, at five of them anyways,
at my mom's funeral, but I hadn't seen three of them,
and probably probably since my when my father passed, I
probably saw him then. Yeah. So anyways, a lot of fracture,
(14:12):
and you know, for what they came out of they did,
they did remarkably well. They they pulled themselves up and
created you know, material and financial stability for themselves. And
they stayed together fifty years. I don't know if that's
a good or bad thing, but your parents, yeah, yeah,
(14:35):
they stayed and they uh yeah, anyways, but they both
have narcissism, had narcissism, and they were they didn't they
didn't know how to work with one another very well.
And I think they hurt each other a lot, hurt
(14:55):
you a lot, Yeah, they did.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, So I just always think about the story you
told all the podcast about pretty sure the podcast about
you had come home from school, like in late grade
school or something, and your mom made you a sandwich
(15:18):
or something.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Ye, thanks, sandwich, and you were.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Telling your mom about a girl from school.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
It was her birthday, and my mother wanted to know
her name. And I thought, if I tell the name,
she's going to know. I think the girl's cute, and
so I just kept my mouth shut.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
And then your mom started laying into you and asking
you weird questions like how come you won't tell me
her name? And you're just frozen, obviously afraid or at
the very least just being shy or something. And she
gets she takes it personally, and she starts to lay
into you, and you're just sitting there, stunned and silent,
(15:57):
with a big bite of egg sandwich in your mouth,
and the thing that I told you when you were
telling me that your mom died, as you can finally
swallow the savage. Yeah. I don't know if that makes
any sense, but that's how it feels to me.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
It makes sense.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
How so.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Well, there is relief with her passing. There's a sense
of responsibility lifted, so I can go east now, And
I mean I always could, but now I feel like
it's easier to go east and see my peeps and
(16:39):
spend time with them without the specter of that shit
hanging over and without being enraged with it, having no
place to go because I'm not going I can't. I
tried when I was in my twenties to make something
different between us, and that went nowhere, which in retrospect
is not a shock at all, in part because of me,
(17:03):
but but and also part because of their inability to transcend,
you know, their own pain and to see me as
an individual that's not them or not a reflection of them,
and just my own whatever. And they couldn't do it.
And I wasn't necessarily artful in my attempt, but it
(17:26):
was an attempt, and not a very welcome one. So
you know, that kind of scar tissue whatever, I don't
have to that's gone. It's gone. So if I want
to go see my brother or my sister, my other brother,
I can do that now freely and easily, and and
(17:48):
enjoy their company because I love them. They're they're really
nice people. They're really decent folks. And there their partners,
very decent people. So and and kids, there's a lot,
there's six kids now kids. The youngest is senior in
high school, you know, but lovely young people, really nice folks. Yeah,
(18:11):
So I can. I can do that now and more
more easily and freely.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
So yeah, is there any sort of liberation in side
your soul, inside your self esteem or your sense of
agency or something healing something? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
It's a really interesting question. Yeah, although I don't understand
it yet, there is So the last three weeks what's
been on my mind is assertiveness and autonomy quite a bit,
and both a desire for it. I want to be
more assertive and autonomous, and also some ignorance about when
(18:52):
passivity shows up and it's many forms and disguises, and uh,
fear of being more assertive and autonomous. So like we were,
we went and saw some friends last night for dinner
in Edmunds. I left, I left Seattle and one of
our friend's birthday and so we had some cards there
(19:16):
at home to pick from, and I actually chose one.
I said I want to do this card, and Colin
was like, yeah, great, that card's fine. But it's the
kind of thing where I would just automatically defer to
her or really anybody else's choice without expressing any desire
of my own. And if she had said no, I
don't want to do that card, to do this other
card or whatever, I mean, I wasn't gonna fight. I mean,
(19:36):
it's not something, but to actually exercise a preference and
speak it is hopefully a growing skill, though my therapist
would probably be like, dude, I've been trying to get
you to do this for eight years, which is true.
It's true. Most every session this is a focus. So
but I'm wondering if I said to him, oh, you're
(19:59):
looking your chop on this one because of sartenness of
a time we came up in a recession right after
my mother passed, and I'm like, well, here's what I want.
And he's like, huh. And I said, oh, you're looking
your chops because she just died and I'm talking about
this and he and he just kind of laughed, I think,
and it was a little bit funny. So, well, here's
(20:20):
what I'm wondering, if if with her passing somehow this
is just a part of me that's just freeing up
to take more risk.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, yeah, why, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, maybe just like the specter of being judged or
rejected even though you know, like I haven't really talked
to her in three or four years.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
And yeah, but you know, we can't ever dis lodge
ourself from underneath one's thumb, right, yes, even if they're
dead sometimes but sometimes with that, yeah, it feels less.
So I'll wonder if.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Is that true for you, Like have you had that
experience when somebody passes. No, Well, I don't think that's
going to be likely true for you, because you're very
good at exercising your agency.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Well, I've never been underneath someone's thumb.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
That helps.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
I think that's the key. But but you know, maybe
there's nuances. I'm so sorry. You know. Another I think
possibility is that you're the top of the family tree,
if you will, you know what I mean. Your parents'
generation is gone and now you're that that top generation
(21:41):
who was still alive, and there's something transitional about that.
But I also wonder if the intensity or the requirements
of the emotional experience of grieving together with your siblings,
the concentrating nature of it liberated you independent of your
(22:03):
mom passing. You know, it's being in your feelings, in
you allowed to be. You might have facilitated some generalization
of that feeling outside of that.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, it could be. I hope it continues, because as
scary as it is to express preference, I want to. Yeah,
even saying that is scary.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, And I've seen the sine wave of this with you,
you know, maybe overall in an upward direction. But I
remember when you went to the writing retreat and you
got back, and I was a good six to nine
months of you being very much in your agency, not
(22:49):
at not anything close to being too much in your agency,
just like the real Bob really is the way that
I see it. And then the slow kind of dissent again,
and then there was another uptick. I can't remember what
it was. It wasn't as long or as big, but
(23:12):
maybe this also is. So there's you know something about
that kind of experience, the intense emotional group experience that
kind of pushes you past the typical defenses and modes
that you get into or something. Well, you know, I
(23:39):
personally have a lot of rage at your mom, and
I that hasn't changed with her passing, and I also
am hearing I think that she might improved on the model,
(24:02):
so to speak, regarding her childhood, but I don't know.
Even if you're suffering, it's not hard to love and
make your child feel safe most of the time, and
so this doesn't change that.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, it's funny, I remark to my clients frequently because
many of my clients come out of trauma and abuse,
and many of them are parents, and almost to a person,
they all impress me because they're capable of raising their
children in wisdom and care and all the good stuff,
even though they don't have a personal model of how
(24:46):
to do that. It's really lovely and remarkable.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah. You know, if you've been through tremendous trauma growing up,
you're probably gonna make some mistakes. Sure, the parents that
I think that you're referring to, typically in my experience,
they'll come around and apologize. Which did your mom ever apologize?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
She can't do that. Neither one of them could do it.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Now, when I was twenty two, I was first sort
of yeah, I suppose really the first time I was
in psychotherapy and I was talking about this and sort
of confronting inside myself like that was abusive that whole
first nineteen years. And so wrote a letter to my
(25:37):
dad about some of his behavior, and he wrote back
a very strange I probably told you this. He wrote
back something very strange. First off, he took the letter
I wrote and cut it into strips and taped it
to paper, and then wrote comments beneath each strip of
you know, paragraph or whatever, comments about I still have
(25:57):
that letter, I should take it out and look at it.
His comments about what I had written, and he didn't
deny any of it. It wasn't like he was saying no,
that never happened. But what he did say was, I
don't know what you want me to do with this information,
which is sort of interesting. If you hit somebody with
your car and you knock them down and they're on
the ground and they're writhing in pain, you're getting a
(26:17):
lot of information. But it isn't much question about what
to do. It's just like fucking call nine to one
and get him to the side and say you're sorry, right,
Like it's pretty fucking easy. Yeah, right, So you know
then I didn't understand. I mean, I don't even know
if I understand it now, but I didn't understand how
simple that is. But the best he could do was
just to say I acknowledge that this is true, and
(26:40):
I don't know what you want me to do with it,
which I want to say, fuck you, man. Yeah, fucking
just fucking say you're sorry, like if or say you're
not if you're not, but whatever, right, Like you know,
I mean, guy had four kids and he was twenty
nine years old, with no equipment, no psychological wherewithal, and
(27:01):
you know that was the day when you know, the
kids leave the house and they run around all day.
It's not like they're you know, we're sort of out
of sight, out of mind. And so, you know, I
feel bad for him because he's Catholic and he would
bid off more than he could chew because he's a
(27:22):
rule follower. Right, So they say you're not allowed to
use birth control, right, that's a fucking blew his head
when my mother insisted, but he relented, like when she said, nope,
we're going on the pill, he breathed and accepted influence,
which I'm not sure really means that he came to
(27:43):
a conclusion on his own so much has just followed
her lead because you know, it's hard for him to
be in his autonomy and agency. So I don't really know.
I can't ask him now. And anyways, he he he
couldn't he couldn't see beyond his own pain, right, and
(28:04):
he was in a lot of it. And yeah, I mean,
do you ever think about this, like I think how
good it is to be alive now with the degree
of psychological sophistication there is now. And so when you
find a therapist, you find somebody that has skills that
(28:24):
are fifty years at more advanced than they were in
the seventies. Now. I don't know if that's true. But
when I think about that, I think my folks who
had access to therapy. Though I couldn't say anything about
the quality of the therapist. I don't know any of them.
I sort of think, you know, did they have available
(28:47):
to them something optimal? And I don't know the answer
to that, though object relation has been around a long
time and people have been good at it for a
long time.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah, that's a good question. It's impossible to know. My
tense given that when we were in grad school in
the nineties and we were exposed to those therapists that
would be practicing in the seventies, is that there's a
similar Bell curve of competence or general wisdom or something.
(29:17):
But it just looked different. It was across more psychoanalytic circles.
You could have a psychoanalytic oriented therapist that was pretty
bad and also one that was pretty good. I mean,
Irvin Yallam was practicing in the seventies and he is
arguably at least psychodynamically oriented, you know, but in today's
(29:40):
world there's a similar Bell curve, but the theories are
different in terms of how they identify. You know, you
can be a CBT therapist and be extremely wise and
caring and healing, and you can be a psychoanalytic therapist
and be a dunce. You know. So it's this just
(30:03):
you know, my sense of things. Yeah, But the thing
that they had were priests, and some of them are
some of the best listeners of all time. And I'm
sure that today and back then, especially because those were
the people that people went to, it's that they would
(30:26):
have some way of helping your parents reorient towards the
light and away from abuse and toward healing that was
available to them.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
My mom faith very important to her and mostly on
her own. And after I was born, she goes to
the priest and says, I don't want to have any
more kids, and the priest says to her, motherfucker. He's like, well,
it's your duty to have sex with your husband when
he wants it. Complete bunk and birth controls the sin
(31:02):
more bunk. So she actually quit the formal church and
they were still they were in a like a hippie
underground church, right, Like the person that officiated her wedding
was ordained a priest in their hippie church, a woman
(31:22):
that was back in the mid late seventies. So I
hadn't seen that lady in thirty five or forty years.
It's sorry the other day.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Anyways, your parents got married in the late seventies.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
No, No, my parents got married in nineteen sixty one
or two. Yeah, but they dropped out of the formal
Catholic church, you know, like Catholics. The way it's supposed
to be is wherever you live, that's where you go
to church. So you're in a parish, right they call
them that. I don't think they might call them that,
but yeah, I think they do. And so that's like
(31:55):
a county, like a church county, and you go to
the church, but I mean that you're just going to
the like local dude. It has nothing to do with
quality control or you know, careful shopping. It's just this
is where you go. And so they they she quit
and after that they I don't know how they got
(32:17):
involved in this, you know, sort of underground Catholic hippie church.
Where we met at an American this back when they
made us go to church, met in the American Legion
Hall like a couple of towns over or we were
in the basement of this elementary school.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Yeah. Same, So I think it was kind of a
movement at the time.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, makes sense.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
We were non denominational because there's less there's fewer Catholics
out here in Seattle. But it was the same that
we met in some hall that they rented on Sunday
morning and right, and I would call it a hippie church.
I mean, it wasn't hippie hippie like nudity and drugs
and stuff, but it was baby boomers, young in their twenties,
(33:02):
breaking away from their parents' old, stuffy religion more humanistic.
So was this new hippie church more likely available to
help your parents with their emotions? Yeah? Yeah, but not
the original.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
And ultimately that church was the source of a great
deal of marital stress, which I'll say for another time.
It fun to talk about, but so I don't know
if it was a good fit. But at some point
they stopped making us go, which was fucking awesome because
A they leave the house on Sunday morning and so
they're not around awesome, and B the three Stooges were
(33:44):
on on Sunday mornings and so we used to just
watch the Three fucking Stooges for fucking hours. It was great.
So did you ever go back to church? Not in
any kind of really.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
How old were you when that happened?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I think I was nine or ten?
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
My family went to church every sing my whole time,
my whole life.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Growing up, like through high school. Yeah, and you went
with them every Sunday.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
When just did you stop? You stopped doing it.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
At some point when I went to college.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
And what was that like?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Was that like a good thing or a neutral thing or.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Multifaceted? I was pretty into church growing up, and I
was really a you know, the youth group was actually
a big part of my life. I was invited to
go to youth group but resisted a lot. But they
actually what I would call to be a little bit
(34:40):
of a coercive tactic. Or for my memory, I think
they literally just showed up at my house with my
parents' permission and said, come out with us, you know,
just socialize, come to Dairy Queen with us or something,
and or or or my mom agreed that I would go.
(35:01):
I just remember going, I don't want to, okay, And
I ended up really loving this group. Yeah, and I
looked up. I was one of the younger kids in
the youth group, and there were these other teens that
were like four years older, and I really looked up
to them. They were super cool. They were what I
(35:23):
guess today we would call like hipsters or goth or something.
But in the eighties they listened to a lot of
European music, you know, And a lot of my music
tastes actually comes from them. A lot of the music
that they listened to I had never heard before and
became exposed to. And and I don't know, I just
(35:46):
I still think about that older kind of crowd and
their sense of humor and stuff. And we would sit
around in a circle and sing songs and we would
talk about our feelings, and there would be God in
Jesus and stuff and scripture. But that was pretty minor,
and the youth pastors seemed old. But I think they
(36:07):
were like twenty, you know what I mean. And we
would do these missions, so to speak, not like the Mormons,
but we would do these charitable trips where we would
help the disadvantage. We went to Mexico one time and
built these kind of what do you call it, the
(36:33):
organization that hamity, yeah, habitat, and it's sort of like
it might have even been that. I don't know, but
there were these very simple but sturdy structures that replaced
these very ramshackle houses that these very poor people lived
(36:53):
in Mexico. And it was very formative, you know, to
be twelve years old and to see these people and
to see them being happy. That was a thing. Like
these families were happy. They had nothing, just rags on
their backs and a plastic sheet that protected them from
(37:14):
the sun at night or you know, in the sun
at night. But you know, like some shelter and the
kids are running around having a good time. Now. You know,
things weren't great in their life. They were without any
services and education or power or protections, you know. But anyway,
it was. It was a very formative time and that
(37:38):
lasted through the end of high school. I mean I
was a little less involved later on, but I was
still involved. But going to college, I it was such
an overwhelming experience being in the frat and you know,
imagine living in a on a block on a street
where you have literally will estimate, like a thousand kids
(38:03):
between the age of eighteen and twenty one, and everyone's
horny and drunk and also kind of smart because you know,
you dubbed attracts the smart crow and ready to party
and ready to have experiences and ready to meet people
(38:25):
and ready to go, ready to be creative, ready to
have experiences, ready to march. You know, we would march politically,
you know. And there was just a lot of things,
and I was in such a whirlwind that everything got
(38:46):
pushed to the side. It was kind of a whirlwind.
But anyway, there's an email that kind of pertains that
I thought we should read. But let's take a break.
What do you say right now? All right, we're back
(39:06):
from the break. I mean, most of all, Bob, I
just want to say, you know, I'm sorry for what
your parents did to you. I'm sure it's way even
more complicated than you could possibly describe, right, all the
ins and outs. And I guess one of the things
(39:27):
that I'm observing, given your reaction talking to you today,
given my experience with grieving, is that you grieved her
decades ago in a way, you know, and as especially
she entered the more advanced stages of Alzheimer's, you were
(39:48):
pretty realistic about well, she's kind of gone already and
whatever sort of bits of attachment and sadness you would
have had, either you gave up a long time ago
and felt or it was sort of piecemealed over time.
But you seem generally at peace, and you did when
(40:08):
we were talking when you were in Philly.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Whereas I think for other people when they go through
what I would call a complicated relationship loss, there's more
unresolved issues, more hopes that are finally dashed, right, Like
you don't seem to have that. You don't seem to
(40:36):
be like, oh, I held out hope that she would have.
You've processed that you grieve, that you distance yourself. You
grieved the loss of not only a childhood that you deserved,
but also the mom that you wished you had or
something you know, a long long time ago. Through all
(40:57):
the therapy and the boundary, you know, there's a lot
of moments that you had to bump up against it
going home when you were still in the kind of
the limbo in your twenties and thirties and trying to
make it work. And you know, you talked about trying
to reorient your relationship with your mom in your twenties,
and the pain and anger and the venting and the
(41:17):
processing and the shame and the building yourself back up again.
That all happened way long ago, and so as she
was fading away, the last bits of your grief were expressed,
which it wasn't much really, and then when she finally passed,
it wasn't a huge blow.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
No, it's not. Yeah, yeah, I don't really feel bad
about that. I think, you know, we have a cookie cutter,
you know, version of what is supposed to look like
when somebody dies, But our responses are the full wings
of responses. Is is what's normal.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
So yeah, it goes with that saying. But I guess
I'll say it that there's a contingency of our society,
pretty big one that says that universally, it's disrespectful to
speak ill of the dead, particularly of your mom, or
to turn away from your mom. You know, moms gives
so much, this kind of thing, and it's just like,
(42:23):
either you've never been through what these people have been through,
or you have some sort of religious political agenda that
I just have no time for. Yeah, a child's love
is earned, and most parents earn it. And if you
don't fucking earn it, then you don't fucking deserve it.
(42:45):
Here's an email long term annual patron from New Jersey, Jersey. Interesting.
She says, Hi, doctor Kirk and Bob I had an
upbringing similar to Bob's, and I now have complex PTSD
and disorganized attachment by the way, I the top of So,
I just finished my book and sent it to you
(43:05):
bomb a couple of days ago to review. And let's
talk about that for.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
A congratulations, fantastic accomplishment.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah, how many years? Ten to eleven, eleven years, maybe longer,
I don't know. Wow. Well, it's mainly a product of
just how shitty of a writer I am and how
long it took me to develop the ability to write.
It's kind of weird because I've said I'm never writing
another fucking book because it takes too long and I
have other things I want to do. I would like
(43:36):
to write again, but there's too many other things I
want to do, too many deep dives. Really is the
kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Well, it's a testament to perseverance.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
And completionism, you know, like I always complete what I
set out to do, which is a blessing and a curse,
but also I'm passionate about the topic. I'm also passionate
about the whole thing because it's not just about the
(44:07):
narrow topic of grief the way people usually talk about it.
When I get into the book, it basically is about
life and death and healing and love and connection and
attachments and shame and emotion and society and culture and
all the things history, genealogy, the very meaning of life
(44:33):
really is kind of expressed through the whole thing. And
the book is this kind of weird combo I think
of academic and personal and therapeutic, and it's just it's
kind of like the podcast in a way.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
It's your wheelhouse.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, so yeah, it feels good to be done. If
no one buys it, I you know, I'll ninety five
percent of my enjoyment will have been met already because
I don't know, I cried multiple times while writing. Sometimes
(45:12):
I would even mention it. I would say, well, that
one made me cry or something. So I don't know, Like,
but I really appreciate your looking it over because you
helped me with my last book, and you spend a
lot of time and effort and you give good advice.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
It's a good book if you're looking for a book
about supervision. It is a very good book.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Thanks, so yeah, and I'm my current thought is that
the feedback that I get from you and a couple
other editors. Colin Miller actually, for those who know, he's
is on the podcast occasionally Call In with Colin we
(45:58):
call it. He is an editor as well, and so
he's going to look it over. And then there's another
colleague named Christine who she's going to look it over
as well. She's a writer and a clinician, so she
knows about these and she's written about grief herself, so
she is a good resource in that way. But it's
(46:19):
also pretty personal. I mean I get a lot into
my own personal experiences, you know, And there have been
some interesting stories because as I talk about individual people
in my past, I feel compelled to reach out to
those people, including you, by the way, for permission to
(46:40):
talk about it, you know, and be like, is it okay?
Then I'm telling this story about you, by the way,
and they will always say yes. And then and then
I ask, you know, do you have any clarifications? And
there's been some huge revelations from this fantastic yeah, and
some reconnections you know, so that's been interesting to experience
(47:04):
but also to document, you know, say, like by the way,
I reached out for permission and let me give you
an update on that, you know that kind of anyway.
But uh, why was I talking about that?
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Because you've finished the damn thing just the other day. Yeah,
and it's on your mind and it's fantastic. Oh and
I think that whoever wrote in mentioned something about.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Oh, oh, so thank you. I the How so I've been,
as people have heard me talk i'd nausem about, is
I've been trying to get better work life balanced back
the past couple of years, a few years and about
a year and a half ago, I finally got to
(47:50):
a point where I could sort of breathe, and with
that breathing, I decided to allocate basically all that free
time to finishing the book. So for the past couple
of years, I've been spending entire days, you know, or
weeks at a time, because it requires that kind of time,
(48:15):
especially when you have citations and references and research and
da da da, and so I have been doing that.
But now that that's done, now I'm really free. Yeah,
so I want to do deep dives and two of
the top deep dives I want to do is one
(48:36):
complex PTSD and the other one limerents and three would
be psychopathy any social So that's why I can talk
about so Hi doctor and Bob. I had an upbringing
similar to Bob's, and I now have complex PTSD and
disorganized attachment. I decided to go no contact with both
of my parents, and even though it is the right
(48:57):
decision for me, quite honestly, it sucks. My dad is
recently sick and recently almost died, and I upheld my
no contact decision with my parents. But I am really
warm and empathetic and compassionate, and sometimes I feel like
my no contact decision is the wrong one. It feels
like I am going against how much I value empathy
(49:18):
and relationships. All I want to do is to be
with my family. But as soon as my dad's health
scare happened, even without speaking to my parents directly, I
had a massive uptick in PTSD symptoms. I know for
my well being, I can't talk to my parents at
least right now. What advice do you have to get
myself through this? It has caused me so much guilt
(49:38):
and grief. Thank you so much, and I appreciate you
both very much. Also as a fellow Penn State grad Bie, Hey,
rid On, Bob is right, Nitny Lyons over Huskies, sorry,
doctor Kirk And of email, well, Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
They're coming, Penn State's coming in fall of twenty twenty six,
and we are going to the game.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
And I don't well, we'll see how you Dub does
this year. I'm not confident, but you never know.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
We're going to the game and you're gonna wear purple
and I'm gonna wear blue, and we're gonna have some
beer in a good time. Yeah, that's the point.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
Well, I have a whole big frat group of guys
that go all the time. Great, and so we can
actually we can get tickets with them, okay, great yeah yeah,
oh our accountant, yeah yeah, our accounts so yeah, yeah, yeah.
I like Darrell and we can do the prefunk and
the post funk at the house anyway.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
So.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
What advice do you have getting So it kind of
sounds like she is at a point where you might
have been like twenty years ago or something. So what
advice do you have?
Speaker 2 (50:44):
Well, this is tricky. I mean, I don't think that
I never went no contact with my folks, and when
they each did get sick, I you know, I was
around to some extent, not very much, sort of minimally.
So that said, I think it sort of depends on
what you want, Like when you're asking for advice, do
(51:08):
you what do you want? Do you want like relief
from pain that you're having when you don't have contact
with them, or do you want to have your PTSD
symptoms abate enough so that you can have contact with them.
And by the way, having contact with them has nothing
to do with having empathy you. This is what struck
(51:28):
me when I read this, was how they seem to
be juxtaposed as I'm an empathic person, but I'm shutting
the door on my parents, So what a dick I am.
That's how I read it, and I don't buy that
at all. What I think, what I actually think is happening,
is there's a part of you that is really afraid
of your stance and afraid of just standing in your
(51:49):
own space and doing what you need. And the way
it rebels is it says you're an asshole who doesn't
have empathy for your parents even when they're sick as shit.
What's wrong with you. I think it's just an artifact
of defense and it's no big deal. And I could
be wrong, but if I'm not wrong, then it's no
big deal. It's just lately I've been thinking about this shit.
(52:10):
It's like a shark's tooth. Sharks teeth are really interesting
in that they point inward. So if you get bit
by a shark and you pull your, say, your arm out,
what happened is the teeth will dig in in your
arm doesn't want to get dinged up some more. So
what do you do?
Speaker 1 (52:25):
You go?
Speaker 2 (52:26):
You have to go into the shark's mouth in order
to not have teeth sticking in you, and of course
that's death right. So what I think is that humans
do something or you know, maybe not human, would we
do something similar in that when we are going against
long held, perhaps erroneous beliefs about what we're supposed to be,
(52:46):
When when we buck the trend, then our brain is
going to throw up storms and threads and anything it
can think of to get us to toe the line,
because it's to your brain, it's just about it's what
do I gotta do survive this? And so for me,
having quote empathy is a survival skill. But it isn't
(53:08):
in my case, really empathy. It's just a way to
survive this fucking nonsense and chaos and danger. So and
in my case it's closet narcissism. So you know, what
are you gonna do?
Speaker 1 (53:21):
Right?
Speaker 2 (53:21):
But I don't think that you attacking yourself simply because
you notice this thing come up. No, sorry, I'm not
saying it right. What I mean to say is I
don't think that I think you should consider is this
really empathy because it might not be.
Speaker 1 (53:43):
Dude, that makes sense, h yeah, total sense right now,
right right. I mean you could say empathy deserves to
go a lot of inter directions, including yourself.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
Yeah, you could say that.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
But I think another way of saying what you're saying
is that it might not be empathy or compassion as
much as it's shame.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah, thank you. That's a nice, very distinct way to say.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
There's a there's a feeling of within of like you're
supposed to care or express care, and we can mistake
that feeling for compassion when possibility it's just shame. It's
the shame and internalized depression, you know, internalized notions of
you must be nice to your parents no matter what. Yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Be kind to yourself at the least whether you do
anything with your folks. Maybe it's just another matter, but
there is no benefit to giving yourself a hard time
about whatever your stance happens to be.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
And you know, one can have compassion without exposing oneself.
You can in your mind and your heart maybe even
express it in some way, maybe through a card or
something if you felt that was safe enough, or compassion
from afar or something, but it doesn't mean that you
(55:12):
have to be right by their side exposing yourself to
being traumatized again. The other thing that I'll say is
that any child who you know, adult child who draws
a boundary with a parent, I've never met an adult
child that drew a boundary with a parent that didn't
deserve to draw a boundary with their parent, people who,
(55:34):
in fact, it's almost always the opposite. I'm always thinking
that person deserves to draw a boundary with their parent,
and they're not. People who draw boundaries with parents have
tried everything under the sun before they drew a boundary
with their parent. So now I'm sure there are some
(55:54):
isolated cases, like if a child was traumatized by the
other parent and had a general personality disorder that caused
them to target the other parent. You know, I could
see that something. But generally speaking, you know, if someone
doesn't have a significant personality disorder, but even if they
(56:14):
do honestly and they've drawn a boundary with the parent,
all I ninety nine percent of my assumption is that
that decision was made after they after they gave it
too much time and effort to not draw boundary. So
my guess is long term annual patron from New Jersey,
(56:36):
you what I hear is you deserve to draw a
boundary years before you actually did so. I'm guessing there's
no basis for guilt or shame at all. Compassion and
love from one's children is earned. It's not a right.
(57:00):
Parents aren't entitled to love from us. They earn it.
I love my parents because they earned it ten times over.
I don't just give it to them because I'm a
good person. I give it to them because I want to.
(57:21):
You know, it just happens. I don't have to force it.
That's what you know. That's what good enough parents get
from their adult children is not love out of obligation
or duty, but love because it just it just feels right.
It just comes out of me. It's just it's natural.
(57:43):
So if it's not coming out of you naturally, then
don't force yourself or shame yourself into it. They don't
deserve it, And fuck them, honestly, really, just fuck them. Fine,
they had a bad childhood, Fuck them. I don't give
a fuck. The many people who have had bad childhoods,
(58:03):
who you know, with mistakes make up for it somehow
validate it, apologize something. And if parents still do that,
then fuck them. Fuck them. So fucking angry at these people.
I mean, how hard is it to love your child
and apologize? Man? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
I apologize all the time. I don't have kids, but
I apologize to Colleen because I'm sometimes the nightmare but
it's not her fault, and so I constantly make I'm
not quite the same mistake over and over again, but
I make the mistake frequently, and I'm very fast and
good at saying I'm sorry, and not just like I'm sorry,
(58:47):
so you don't have to suck it up now because
I said I'm sorry, but like, actually care about whatever
might be helpful for her to feel whole again. So
it's not enough to stay sorry. It's like, what do
you need? What can I do? How can I be?
How can I make this right with you? Or how
can I help you heal from or resolve you know,
(59:09):
the bullshit thing I just did or said or whatever
it is that you know whatever, It's not hard, No,
it's fucking easy. And actually I learned this one from you.
It feels good to do it, so good.
Speaker 1 (59:21):
It feels good to crest the hill and plan to
do it. Yeah, just the thought of, oh, yeah I
should probably apologize, and right then I feel better. I
feel Oh, I feel so much better now, just the
thought and then you know, then apologize, bah bah blah.
(59:42):
But yeah, everyone wins.
Speaker 2 (59:45):
Yeah, everybody wins.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
Yeah, well that does it for that episde psychology see Ott.
Everyone out there, please take care of yourself because you
deserve it.
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