Cheating On Your Abuser

Bobcast!  Dr Kirk and Bob answer patron questions.

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/KIRK to get 10% off your first month.

00:00 An abusive relationship and affair
31:02 Was the pastor sexually abusive? 
41:18 Is this a safe relationship or just less bad? 
52:03 Is infidelity in an abusive relationship ok? 
1:02:43 What does repair look like?
1:07:27 How can I continue to heal from my shame? 

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October 20, 2025

The Psychology In Seattle Podcast ®

Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So, Bob, I have a long email that goes into
intimate partner violence and also what it's like to be
a victim, and what it's like to cheat on your abuser,
and what it's like to be coerced into relationship by
a pastor, and what it's like to recover from all
this and stay in the relationship with the abuser and

(00:23):
navigating all of that. It's a long email. Normally I
would summarize it so we could quickly answer it and
move on to other emails, but I wanted to dedicate
this whole episode just to this email. So let's get
into it. What do you say? I say, Yes, this
is the Psychology and Stato podcast. I'm your host, doctor
Kirk Hondom, a therapist. I'm a professor. Who are you, Bob?

Speaker 2 (00:44):
I am Bob. I'm your friend from graduate school from
thirty years ago and a therapist here in practice in the.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Seattle Yeah, exactly thirty. In fact, this day maybe even
could could be the exact day that we met thirty
years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
I think it was a Wednesday, But was it Okay?
We could look it up, Yeah, we could look it up. Yeah,
that's it's somewhere.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, maybe the first Wednesday of October or something.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Last weekend, I thought Flora was walking down my street,
our teacher from our first class, very first class. Yeah,
and it looks so much like her. I mean, I
haven't seen her in years, but it looks so much
like her. I approached her, I'm like, are you Flora,
And the lady's like, no, my name is Pam. Well.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
I've seen Flora occasionally and she's she's a very intense
person even when she's not your professor, and she's very purposeful,
and you could tell that she's a really great therapy
she is, and she was a very good professor anyway,
So let's get into the email. What you say? Yep,
So this email is from YouTube member and middle tier

(01:52):
patron Nicole from Canada. She says, Hi, doctor Kirk and
the podcast family, including you, Bob, thank you. I've been
an avid list her for a couple of years now,
and I've been a patron since February. Your podcast has
helped me through some of the hardest years of my
life and basically has been my only form of entertainment too.
Who well, Cole, I hope you find other ways to

(02:16):
entertain yourself because I can't imagine that this could be
all that entertaining anyway. Going on, I've finally worked out
the courage to share my very personal story and would
be so grateful to hear your thoughts, especially on the
subject of infidelity within the context of abuse. I have
been in a painful marriage for seventeen years, and a
few years ago I had an affair with a pastor,

(02:37):
so just chiming in here. I always ask on the
form on the website how they want to be referred to,
and Nicole said she wanted to be referred to by
her name. But I'm guessing there's a lot of Nicole's
in Canada. And I also will commend people for saying, look,
you know, I don't have anything to be ashamed of,
so you know this is a story now. If someone

(03:00):
wants to be anonymous, it's fine.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Not you're wrong with that.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
Going on, I married young and have been in a
relationship and a marriage for seventeen years. Over seventeen years.
We met in high school, fell quickly in love, and
I felt like I had known him forever. Just three
months in, though he began getting very angry, mostly around jealousy.
I thought it was justified, So I tried harder and
harder to please him. The control and verbal aggression only worsened,

(03:27):
all right, So just chiming in high school, sweetheart seventeen
years jealous rage, she's trying to please him. I often
thought I was too sensitive, as he said, and tried
to be tougher while he called me names and he
would berate me. In some ways it felt very familiar.

(03:47):
I grew up in a chaotic home with loving but
volatile parents. My father could be playful one moment and
enraged the next. My mother was fun and expressive, but
could also be bullying and reactive. These patterns carried into adulthood.
With my husband, I developed anxiety and a sense of worthlessness.
I detached from friends and family and gave him my

(04:09):
whole self. So just Chimian sounds like a pretty classic
tragic abusive life, abusive parents, abusive partner. We moved in
together after high school and had children at nineteen and twenty,
less than a year apart. I poured myself into being
a peaceful, loving mother and homemaker, but my husband continued

(04:30):
tearing me down every few days. When he was kind,
it was wonderful, but it always felt like I'd climb
a hill, catch my breath, then be thrown back down again.
He drank heavily. He provided well financially, but controlled the money.
I became so anxious about his anger that even grocery

(04:50):
shopping filled me with fear about what mistake I might take.
Moving to the country made the isolation worse, all right,
just Jemian. So, yeah, it's a pretty classic. There are
many different profiles, but this is a pretty common profiles.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
These elements that are pretty common.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, so, in all likelihood, he went through trauma himself,
had certain things modeled to him. He has tremendous attachment anxiety.
He deals with it in an abusive way. He doesn't
know how to be vulnerable or how to build trust,
and so he quote unquote builds an illusion of trust
through control because it's sort of like, we would love

(05:31):
if we could fully trust our partners, but if that's
not possible given our traumas, then will you know, some
people will take the ability to control them from the outside,
you know, to impose fear or rules or control aspects.
And so it's like, well, they would rather just be
able to trust and not do that, but they don't

(05:51):
think that's possible or they so they resort to that thing.
It doesn't justify it at all. Obviously, it's horrible. It's
in moral on a level that is beyond a lot
of things, because you're just like repeatedly harming someone that
you're living with. He provided well financially, but control the money.
Pretty common and a very interesting detail that really illuminates.

(06:16):
And then if you know, you know, because you know
that this is something that you felt, maybe not specifically this,
but versions of this. I became so anxious about his
anger that even grocery shopping filled me with fear about
what mistake I might make. So, you know, that's a
sign that if you feel afraid to do simple things,
you know, like chores or parenting or grocery shopping, or sex,

(06:41):
or how you talk or how you walk, or how
you breathe or how you dress, or you know, if
you're starting to become afraid of your partner doing something. Now,
it doesn't necessarily mean that your partner is abusive, but
it's a red flag at the very least. No one
should be afraid to do something reasonable and occasionally make mistakes,

(07:03):
you know what I mean, We make mistakes yeah, and
what's a mistake while grocery shopping exactly look like, Oh.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
But you know what it is. It's it's Adams peanut butter. Oh,
always buy the stir kind, not the non stir kind.
But occasionally the labels are confusing and you get the
wrong kind. And is that a reason to be afraid now?

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah? Yeah, meaning you don't like the one where the
oil drifts to the top.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
No, that's the that's the good one.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Oh you want the good one.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, it's a pain and ask to stir, but yeah,
try try and taste the stir versus oh no, no.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
I So I grew up with the non stir because
that was the only one you could get. You basically
had Jiffy and you had Adams Skippy Skippy or Jiffy
or whatever one of a jiff Skippy anyway, And we
always got the Adams one because that was the healthy one, right,
because it doesn't have added sugar anything. And yeah, the

(07:58):
stirring was a big part of the thing, right, But
there was always the last little bit of peanut butter
at the bottom that could you could never really fully
reconstitute because it would just be neglected for so long
you know. But I will say that eventually I made
the switch to no stir oh Man peanut butter Trader,

(08:21):
but I feel like they started to figure out a
way to make non stir peanut butter that didn't have
all the added bullshit and still tasted good. No, it's
just so much more convenient.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
No, I get that. I get that. We have a
jar of beach at home right now. And I made
the mistake last night of pulling the stir kind, the
no start kind out, and I'm like, it's good. Then
I realized it was the wrong one. I'm like, oh, yeah, right,
this is better. It spreads.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
The no ster one also spreads a lot easier.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
It does. It does the texture is more amenable to
making a sandwich. Blah blah blah. And by the way,
none of this is meant to trivialize what Nicole is
going through. If I was at the grocery store and
I was scared I was going to get the wrong jar,
I mean that's fucking crazy.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yep, yep, yes, going on. I was so confused because
he could love me beautifully then quickly turned cruel, sometimes
toward the kids too. I forgave him over and over,
tried to be the perfect wife, and gave in sexually
to avoid his rage at rejection. I lost autonomy over
my own body. The cycle left me emotionally exhausted and

(09:25):
anxious as I worked hard to be a stable, attuned,
peaceful parent. About four years ago, things escalated. He drank
vodka nightly and lashed out, often screaming at me, shaking me,
shaming me. At times, he withheld food because he quote
unquote earned the money. So withholding food. Wow, Like, I mean,

(09:46):
all of it's bad, but you know, when that starts.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
To happen, that's a whole another level of terrible. Yeah, sorry, Nicole.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah. One night he destroyed my small altar, my last
safe corner in one room the house I would often
retreat to. By the way, I feel like we might
have responded to one of her emails, or I read
one of her emails because I remember that detail about
the small altar. It could have been someone else, but anyway,
I began attending a small church searching for support. The

(10:16):
pastor initially offered to help me through counseling about my
shame over smoking, about my shame over smoking, but at
our second meeting, he confessed his attraction and told me
not to tell anyone, especially his wife, any thoughts on that.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
Bob. Well, it's just terrible, Like it's explative, it's exploitive,
it's disgusting, its abuse of power, it's praying on the vulnerable.
It's just terrible.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
And I had a girlfriend years ago. This happened to
right before she and I started dating. This is back
when I was in college, and same kind of thing.
And every time I hear this story, I just I
remember her and the shit she had to go through
and yuck. Yeah, yeah, terrible.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah, same thing I'll say to therapist. Keep it in
your fucking pants.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, it's not hard.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
If you are attracted to someone, fine, but figure shit
out and don't amplify it, and don't tell the person figure.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
Shit out because it's not about them.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah. And a pastor, I would argue, is even more
sacred than a therapist, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Like, what the fuck is.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
Wrong with you?

Speaker 2 (11:29):
I don't know what's wrong with people going on?

Speaker 1 (11:32):
It was unsettling. He hugged me too long and I
left confused, telling myself I wouldn't see him again, but
he kept pursuing me. He seemed wise and caring. He
said all the right things, and it drew me in.
Despite shame and conflict, I became entangled in a seven month,
seven month affair with him. I tried to end it
many times, but he always talked, talked me into just

(11:54):
one more meeting. He was intelligent and chrismatic. Places once
sacred like church became dark to me. Some need was
clearly being met that I wasn't getting at home, and
I convinced myself I loved him. Any thoughts on that, Bob.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
It's so there was no There's no way, man, it's
all this secrecy and power abuse. I can imagine you
just getting hornswoggled by a flood of thoughts and confusion
and telling yourself stuff that turns out not to be true,
like I love this guy. No, No, that's I mean,

(12:33):
I know that loving feelings might be part of the picture,
but that doesn't mean that that's a wholesome relationship. It's
clearly not a wholesome relationship. So you're being ripped off.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah. Yeah. What I'll say is that when you are
an abuse victim of any sort, particularly of a high
level like this, Yeah, and someone comes along that at
the very least is less abusive. Right, then it is
obvious least something you're going to gravitate towards. And the

(13:03):
fact that it's an affair and the other person is
having an affair actually makes it safer feeling because it's
seemingly less likely to get back to your husband, who
will surely kill you if this were to be found out.
You know, it's sort of like you take any organism human,

(13:25):
other animal, and I don't know, like you light there
the ground on fire, and then you give them an
option to jump out of the fire. It doesn't really
matter what that other option is. They're going to do it,
even if it's not ideal. Right, I guess while we're
on this analogy, it's like when you have a burning

(13:45):
building like the World Trade Center and people jump out
of windows. It's like people will say that in those
moments they you know, if they jumped out of like
a four story building and survived, they'll say like, well,
I was pretty sure I was going to die, but
it didn't matter because there was there were flames and
it was so hot and I couldn't breathe, and I

(14:09):
didn't want to die obviously, but I didn't want that
feeling anymore, so I just went the other direction. That's
what this is. This is a survival thing. It's not
a choice you're making. Really, it's something you're doing out
of absolute desperation. And all of that needs to be
taken in consideration. Now, you know, she's a grown woman.
She has knowledge of how to make choices to some extent.

(14:32):
But when you're in the whole of abuse, it's understandable
at the very least.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
But the thing about fidelity is is what am I
faithful to? Like, I'm not faithful. There's something that's good
for me, that's wholesome for me. I'm not being treated properly.
So you know, like, unless you're in the Foxhill, nobody
knows what they would do, and there's nothing here. I
hope there's nothing. I mean, there's nothing here to judge.
I hope people would refrain from judging the cold for
this thing.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
I mean, yeah, I mean take it to an extreme end.
Did you see the Room the movie?

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Oh? Yeah, Room?

Speaker 1 (15:06):
Or wait? I think it's just called room because the
room is the funny one that's not supposed to be funny,
and then there's Room, which is the one with pre Larsen.
If she were to leave, and let's say that she
and the guy got married somehow, like there was a
ceremony and she ended up getting married to this guy

(15:27):
or whatever. Or had verbally said that she is in
a committed relationship with the guy that has her locked
in a shed in the backyard, and she escapes and
has sex with someone else. Is that infidelity? No, of
course not so, just because on paper, you know, and
on the surface and even maybe in your conscious mind,
you're in an exclusive, dedicated marriage. Obviously, something turned to quarters,

(15:51):
to the point where you don't even know your own
mind right, And that's not it's no longer the sort
of thing one can chee.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
That's nicely put going on.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
He justified our actions by pointing to our I'm worried.
People are going to think you're farting, bob, but you're just.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
Shifting, shifting in this noisy chair.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah. He justified our actions by pointing to our unhappy marriages.
He justified our actions. He justified oh the minute there,
the pastor justified our actions are infidelity by pointing to
our unhappy marriages, and even twisted my faith to keep
ensuring his desires were being met. Gross, my god. I

(16:33):
was a shell of myself, often crying after seeing him,
drowning in guilt, anxiety attacks, and nightmares. The guilt consumed me. Eventually,
my husband found a message, confronted me, and I told
him about the infidelity. In a rage, he confronted the
pastor at his home in front of his wife. The
fallout was devastating. The church branded me that The church

(16:54):
branded me the Buddhist tempterists who corrupted their pastor.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
WHOA, so they're so weird.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. The person with power was the
one that was corrupt, right, So by context, I think
what she's saying is that she was seen as like
a Buddhist that was going to this Christian church and
or I don't know, but she got othered, right, and
then you know, the world's been doing this to women forever. Yeah,

(17:24):
and Christians have been doing it to non Christians. We
left town quickly. My husband swung between clinging tightly and
being cruel physically and emotionally. The pastor stalked me for
months until I finally cut contact and reported him to
the police.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
Wow, good on you.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah. One night, my husband turned especially violent, throwing me
around and screaming I was a whore that God would
never forgive, and I believed him. He was later arrested
after my sister called for a wellness check, but I
still wrote a court statement to ease his charges. That
became a breaking point, that shifted a lot, began waking

(18:01):
up in new ways. So just chiming in, Yeah, this
is often what people in what I would call moderate
to severe abusive relationships will report once they start going
through recovery, is they will be so gas lit. People
use that term in ways that are ridiculous when you're

(18:22):
in I hope people hear in this story. She's not
saying the word gaslight, but that's what's happening. She's not
even really alluding to being gaslet much, but well, I
guess she was saying that she felt guilty, She felt
like something was wrong with her. This is the story
that I'll hear is that there will be some kind
of breaking point, and it's often an outside element. So

(18:45):
this sister probably had worries and concerns, maybe knew a
few things and was getting escalatedly upset or worried or
concerned or hating this guy, this husband, and probably was
really on the fence. Do I call the police? And
because you know, my sister isn't asking me to call

(19:06):
the police, And what if I call the police? And
what what's this husband going to do? You know, will
I completely lose contact with my sister if I call
the police? What will the police?

Speaker 2 (19:17):
You know?

Speaker 1 (19:17):
I just you just don't know. But the police are called,
and then the police are investigating, so they end up talking,
and especially if they have someone that specializes in this
and they're getting better. You know, every police officer is different,
every department is different, but at the very least, there's
an investigation. There's questions like what happened to you? And

(19:39):
there's something about sitting in front of a police officer
as they're asking you questions that wakes you up a
little bit or gives you that opportunity. You're not isolated,
you're not like in a stagnant room that's like a
shed locked in the backyard. You're suddenly on the street
talking to an outsider, and they're reacting to you not

(20:00):
like you deserved it at the very least, and maybe
they're even saying, oh wow. And in this moment, you're
given this opportunity to contrast your gas lit state with
someone else's reaction. That's what abusers do is they isolate
one and then they gaslight as well. And so there's you. Basically,

(20:21):
when you're in that ongoing situation, you have one person
to gauge whether or not you're sane or not. And
so as you start to think, I think this is wrong,
you only have one there's only the jury of your
peers consists of one person, and it's the abuser. And
that person is not only saying, you know that they

(20:43):
don't agree with you, but they're actually saying the opposite.
Not not only you know, are you an abuse victim,
but you deserve this? In fact, you're the you're the abuser,
you know, And so often it requires these kinds of apts.
So this is another I'm sending this message out so that,
depending on the scenario, case by case, that from an

(21:03):
outside point, you can't depend on the abuse victim on
the inside to do something like if you're near them
and you're trying to advise them or something that might
not ever work. And so you might be altruistically strategizing
about what you're going to do in spite of your
friend or family member or person you care about. That's
an abusive relationship case by case basis, because if you

(21:27):
do something, it actually could get people killed. Even the
police could even kill everyone. That happens sometimes, So it's
not a universal thing, but it is a common thing
that I'll hear. So we're hearing that from her. She's
saying it was a wake up call. My husband and
I tried to rebuild, but the cycle continued. Now with

(21:48):
all that I did to hurt him, he had even
more reason to mistreat me. I answered every painful question
about the affair in hopes of rebuilding trust, but it
only deep in the trauma on both sides. I lived
like a prisoner for months, literally not allowed literally not
allowed to leave the house. The memories of what I

(22:08):
did tormented me. So let me guess and read the
lines that I've seen this before, that abusers, generally speaking,
are abusing because they have an understandable, logical inner child
that is afraid. It doesn't justify any you know, millimeter

(22:30):
of what they're doing, but it is the basis of
what they're doing. It's not they're not a narcissist, they're
not a psychopath. Necessarily, they could be but that's not
usually the case. And I've treated convicted perpetrators, and I'm
telling you this is the case. They can be despicable,
fucking human beings, but there's it's not psychopathy underneath it. Necessarily,

(22:54):
it's not usually the case. So what will happen in
a scenario like this is that there is ajournal of
reasonableness inside of them, inside of the abuse, inside of
the abuser, there's a human there's empathy, and so when
they discover that they've been cheated on, there's a lot

(23:16):
of volatility, there's a lot of ups and downs, but
there's also this recognition from the abuser of just like oh,
but because there's almost a self gas lighting that they
engage in as well, that they slowly enter into a
world that they're building very adamantly that is constructed around
a lie that through course of control, it's all justified

(23:38):
in that it's actually helping the attachment security. But when
these kinds of things happen, when they suddenly realize that
they're being cheated on, or sometimes it's the abuse victim
will leave or will call a domestic violence specialist or something.
There'll be some kind of wake up call and the
abuser sometimes flies off the handle and never looks back.

(24:03):
Doesn't mean that underneath it there isn't at least some
kernel of empathy. But I've seen this a lot where
they will. Now I'm not saying he doesn't have narcissm.
There's a possibility does, but it's not like the way
that people talk to me anyway. So what will sometimes
happen is they will have some health. It'll give hope

(24:23):
even to me as an outsider. I will be treating
couples or abusive victims or perpetrators. I've seen it from
a lot of different sides, where I as a therapist,
I'm like, okay, now begins the healing. And I'll even
have the perpetrator will say like, God, there's something wrong
with me, and I've been I'm an abusive person and
helped me out with this, and you know, so begins

(24:46):
the journey ins. But my experience, especially with someone with
this profile, it could take the rest of his life
to get fifty percent down the road. It's unlikely, even
if he really dedicates himself, that he's going to shed
all of his abusive tendencies. It's just not likely. Now,
can we reduce a lot of it. Can we mitigate
a lot of it? Yes, you know, because it's one

(25:07):
thing to have a system and go down a road
of full control over another Person's another thing to have
impulses where people from the outside can say no, and
it doesn't mean that it's not abusive. It can still
hurt the abuse victim. But if the abuse victim can
instantly tell me and I can talk with the perpetrator
in the room and say you can't do that, that

(25:29):
the abuse victim is no longer a victim. They're being
victimized occasionally, but they're not a victim. They're not being
systematically controlled and isolated. So there's a huge difference there.
The temptation or the confusion for the victim is that,
oh my god, I'm finally getting what I want. He's
admitting that he's abusive. Things are getting a little better,
that nice part of him is coming out more. I

(25:52):
do have support from the outside. Things are better than
they've ever been in my life, because I didn't have
this when I was growing up, and I didn't have
it through my seventeen years of being married. But now
I finally have it, and so by contract, So it's
a very confusing situation because it's like do I leave
do I stay? Because I finally have what I want
and I do love this man and we do have

(26:12):
kids together, and I financially do kind of need him,
and I don't really know who I am without him.
So you know, there's also the overdependency, the dependent personality
aspect of it, which is often the case with abuse victims,
you know, being abused their whole life, because one of
the things you snuff out of people through abuse growing

(26:33):
up and in a marriage is the notion that you're
competent at anything. And you might not be competent at
anything because you've never been allowed to try and learn
and figure things out for yourself. So you probably do
make mistakes when you go grocery shopping completely on your
own without being told exactly what to do, you know
what I mean. But that's life, and you know, that's

(26:53):
how you become competent. Everybody's in a learning curve right
Right when I was eighteen, the first time I went
to the grocery store, I was all so incompetent, you know,
in that way. So anyway, so it's kind of sounds
like maybe that it's somewhere in that camp that she
was in at this point where everything blew up. Cops, sister,

(27:15):
he is and you know, the affair, and then he
start he's like, oh my god. And so you know,
she's saying that he would vacillate between this really scared
child trying to you know, be warm, and he's like
terrified of losing her, but then he would be abusive.
So it has that feeling to me. And from the outside,
simple thinkers will think, well, you should leave him, he's

(27:37):
a fucker. But sometimes you know, that's not easy. One,
It's never easy, but it might not even be philosophically
the best answer at getting her her needs met. There
there is a path forward. Would it be easier to
be cleaner? Would it pretty much guarantee you're not gonna
at least well, is it going to reduce a likelihood

(27:59):
of being victimized abused by this man? Yeah? Do you
need this man?

Speaker 2 (28:03):
No?

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Are there other ways to get support and other ways
to get affection? Yes, but you know, bonds or bonds
and love is love and life is life and decisions
or decisions. And I say that because I've lived with
you know, I've worked with couples and perpetrators and victims

(28:23):
in intimate partner vance relationships, where in the beginning of
my career I would just be like screaming in the
back of my head, leave him, leave him, leave him,
leave him? What are you doing? Leave him? Leave him?
And I was smart enough not to say such things.
I was smart enough to try to not come across
as bias, but I failed probably a lot. But then

(28:45):
eventually I started to actually see the reality of these
situations and realized that I really don't know if that's
the best answer. It certainly would solve some things that
need to be solved and own discomfort, right, and it
would certainly solve my discomfort of having to be powerless
over what's happening to this person. But it's it's not

(29:09):
as simple. You know. I've had people in this situation
over the span of ten fifteen years, and in the
last five years things are better, but he's still abusive,
or the abuser is still being abusive, but she or
the victim has therapy and the abuser is in therapy,

(29:31):
and the victim knows that they don't deserve to be
treated that way, and they have ways of managing that
in their mind and verbally and with power and agency,
they have ways of protecting the kids, now you know
what I mean? Like it's complicated and when they're in

(29:51):
that middle zone, we don't know what's going to happen
and it's up to them. And the other thing is
it's like, how do you even would you're talking to
the victim as a therapist, At what point do you
say to them you can't even trust your own mind?
But that's just me gaslighting the client, you know, So
you're in that weird space of like, wait, so am

(30:15):
I colluding with the gaslighting by not pressing this client
to leave and by not like screaming for the mountaintop?
He's abusive? You don't deserve this shit? Or am I
just being another abuseive? Am I just falling into that
projective ided vocation that she's pushing me into by controlling her?

(30:39):
It gets weird.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
So anyway, that's important for those of us who would
simplify this to this you know SoundBite of you should
just leave and think that that's good advice and blame
her if she stays right, right, and we want to
stay away from that because that's bullshit. Right, Let's take
a break right now, all.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
Right back from the break, So going out with the email,
my husband and I tried to rebuild, but the cycle continued.
Now with all that I did to hurt him, he
had more reason to mistreat me. I think I already
read this, but us I answered every painful question about
the affair and hopes of rebuilding trust, but it only
deepened the trauma on both sides, meaning that it would

(31:24):
hurt him to relive these infidelities, and it would hurt
her because she didn't feel good about these infidelities. I
lived like a prisoner for months, months literally not allowed
to leave the house. The memories of what I did
tormented me. Visions of the pastor's eyes looked like when
he was wanting me sexually still haunt me, along with

(31:46):
many other things he did that I brushed off at
the time. It just flooded to me. It was really was.
It was all really bad, just Jemmy. Even just framing
it as infidelity is a bit of a stretch to
some extent, given the way that you're talking about it,
and I don't know I'm hearing it through your eyes,

(32:07):
but it's it would be pretty easy to frame what
the pastor did to you as sexually abusive.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
I don't have to have any hard time with that. Yeah,
definitely exploitive.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
In your state meaning victim state, and also a person
of power and him using religion to coerce you. This
is akin to someone roofying your drink and you're semi
passed out and they're raping you in the bathroom. No
one says that you did that volitionally. Oh you were unfaithful. Yeah, No,

(32:41):
you were abused. You were assaulted. Even if he for
some reason was struggling in his marriage or having a
normal attraction towards a client or towards a parishioner, everyone understands,
especially someone in that position of where she was, is
that she was an abuse victim that was in a

(33:02):
very vulnerable state. And so I say that because there's
a good chance that he is an absolute psychopathic predator.
So the husband might be psychopathic, but might not be.
A lot abusers are not psychopathic. They might have psychopathic
urges or justifications, but you know, baseline, they have empathy
like other people do. The pastor there's evidence based on

(33:24):
what you're describing that he literally has no empathy and
prefers to statistically prey on people, so framing it as
infidelity is very questionable. And the fact that you're having
like visions of his eyes looking at you with attraction
is telling you know going on. I eventually left for
a time, stayed with my sister, and then followed what

(33:45):
I thought was a deep inner call to India, where
I lived in an ashram for nine months. Near the
end of my stay, I had a powerful dream and
epiphany that I should reunite with my family and that
I would conceive this time the baby would survive. I
had suffered eleven miscarriages previously. Yeah to my I mean,

(34:06):
first off, I'm just so glad that she was able
to get away from everything. To my surprise, that's what happened.
I came home, reconnected, and after a few months, became
pregnant and we entered a redemption season. My baby girls
now won and she has brought so much joy. Therapy
helped us in ways for a while, but our therapists

(34:27):
had to go on medical leave, so perhaps we will
start again when he is better. The therapist is better still,
our home has become calmer, we are parenting better. We
have built a beautiful community around me. I have built
a beautiful community around me in the last year, hosting
a women's group and a mom and todts group each week.

(34:48):
I have friends again, Okay, just stamming in here. So
these are definitely good signs.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Yep, right, not isolated, right.

Speaker 1 (34:56):
And that he might be and he's in there therapy
or he was in therapy with the couple therapists, and
that he might be addressing some of these issues.

Speaker 2 (35:07):
Right.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
I've also been less obsessive about living a spiritual hippie
dippy life, and I learned that maybe a lot of
it was in my mind and also not so healthy.
I feel more grounded. Your podcast to help me with
this too, just time me in. So what do you
think she means by that?

Speaker 2 (35:26):
Which part?

Speaker 1 (35:27):
I've been less obsessive about living a spiritual hippidippy life,
and I learned that maybe a lot of it was
in my mind and not so healthy.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
It sounds like another sort of distortion about you know,
like the it wasn't an abusive relationship, it was infidelity.
I don't know, That's how it sounds to me, Like
maybe there's a vulnerability to a continued distortion of self judgment.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
Right, hard to know, hard to know, but the spiritual
hippidippy life.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
Such a shitty way to put it.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
Well, there's you know, if this was an independent evaluation
for herself, just like, yeah, I was really into this thing,
and I was, but now I feel like, I don't know,
it doesn't really appeal to me anymore or whatever. That's fine,
but we know that the whole church called her the
Buddhist that you know, the temptersty, and so I don't know,

(36:23):
but at very least there's that. But there also could
be her husband could be threatened by her spirituality or
something because it's her being herself anyway. I am even
starting school again to upgrade my high school courses at
the age of thirty three. I'd like to have the
option to attend university when my baby is older and
we are ready to have a little time apart. So

(36:45):
lots of victories are taking place. I love life, and
I am enjoying it a lot more than ever before.
So it's just chiming in here. This sounds a lot
like the victims that I would work with, both in
couple and in individual therapy, that a lot of good
things have happened. They recognize that isolation is the enemy.

(37:06):
They're actively not being isolated. They're still with their partner
that has those tendencies, and there might even be things
happening along those lines, but generally speaking, things are a
lot better and they are optimistic about the future. Something
like that. From the outside, it's like, well, if he's

(37:29):
still being abusive at times, then what are you doing right?
But it's more complicating that going on. My husband still
drinks and he can be quite reactive, but the emotional
abuse is less frequent and physical aggression almost non existent.
I have found ways that helped me cope through the
harder days, but I remain uncertain. So any thoughts on

(37:51):
that bump?

Speaker 2 (37:52):
Uncertain about what I think uncertain about?

Speaker 1 (37:54):
Well, she's about to ask some questions, okay, but she
is saying that the emotional abuse is less frequent, which,
when we think about the story up until this point,
it's like, oh, thank god. But any emotional abuse is abuse,
and most relationships don't have any emotional abuse, and people

(38:15):
that are in these kind of relationships might not really
fully understand that. You know that any amount of emotional
abuse is a fucking problem. It doesn't mean you leave
the person, but it needs to be at the very
least frame that way. Now have you said that again.
I've worked with victims who get to this place, and
from my outside position for the first ten years of

(38:38):
my career, I would be a little skeptical or dubious
about their claim that like things are better, Well they're
better by contrast, but they're not better. They're not good.
It's also from the outside it just seems like, well,
you don't even realize what you are deserving. You know,

(38:58):
you think, like baseline, you deserve to be abused anyway,
So this is all gravy. But I'm telling you, if
you found another man, in all likelihood, he wouldn't be
abusive at all. Just imagine having someone that loved you
and didn't abuse you at all. Ever, like they didn't
even have the impulse you didn't. So well, that's true,

(39:19):
but that denies the bond that they do have. It
denies that they have kids together, denies her agency to
make her own choices around it. And you know, what
is tolerable to one person is different from ether. Also,
there's a chance that she's in that place that I've
seen a lot of clients will be in where they

(39:40):
will I will learn from the outside is that they
as they are being emotionally abused, occasionally they frame it
as not on them. You know. It's like, oh, my
husband is having a moment and it's fucking annoying.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
As opposed to oh, I caused it because I got
the wrong peanut butter right. Yeah, and that's a wholly
different thing. Big shift. Now, you still.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
Don't deserve to be emotionally abused, and any little bit
will get under your skin to some extent. But with
the measures in place, the support, the therapy, with it
being a lot less, with a certain mindset, maybe even
with him apologizing, I don't know, then a lot of
things can be different. And I've worked with couples like

(40:28):
this where they'll be in this state and the abuser
will do this, but you know, maybe a couple days
later we'll half apologize, and then a couple of weeks
later we'll fully apologize. But it just keeps happening. And
from the outside it you look at it, you're like, well,
but he keeps doing it. But from the inside it's like, yeah,
you know, but I love him and he makes mistakes

(40:51):
and I understand why he does it. But then you ask, well,
you've never not been in an abusive relationship, so you
think that you're in the golden land, but you're still
in the shitland. You know, you're just in the less shitland,
you know what I mean. But we can't know that
from the outside. Going on, Well, let's take a break,

(41:12):
we get back, let's answer her questions. What do you say?

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Right on?

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Okay, back from the break, So, Bob, first question, there's
I don't know, a handful of questions. Is this a
safe relationship or is it just less bad?

Speaker 2 (41:29):
It's less bad? Yeah, I suppose to say more about that. Well,
I guess I want to say it as simply as that,
because that's the question that's asked, and I want to
be clear, and I don't want to equivocate. There's validity
and harm reduction without condoning that there's still harm. There's
still harm. So it's less bad, it's not safe? Safe?

(41:51):
Is safe? Harm? Is harm? Does it mean you should leave?

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Though?

Speaker 2 (41:57):
That's up to you.

Speaker 1 (41:59):
What would you do?

Speaker 2 (42:00):
What would I do if I were her? How the
fuck would I know? Uh? Well, knowing what I know
about my own attachment, stylet probably stay? Is that a
good thing? I don't know. Is it a bad thing?
I still don't know. It's a thing. And we each
get to we each get to drive our we get
to walk our path. We each get to walk our path,

(42:21):
and it isn't for anybody else to say what it
should or shouldn't be. The problem with fucking the world
is everybody's got a goddamn opinion about what everybody else
should be doing. Blah blah blah. That's all just nonsense
and gossip and a failure and empathy. So let's just
everybody back the fuck off. It's none of our business.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Yeah. I think she's in a space of really wondering,
you know, good that question like am I just settling
for something that's less bad?

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (42:50):
Or am I actually in an advisable relationship? You know
what I mean?

Speaker 2 (42:57):
Am I an interesting question eluding myself? No?

Speaker 1 (43:00):
And she doesn't. She doesn't think we be able to
answer the question. But I think the larger question is
how do you figure that out?

Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (43:07):
So what would you say?

Speaker 2 (43:08):
Well, I'd like what you said about four minutes ago
about how she may not have inside her an inner
working model of a relationship that's safe. So to her,
this is better it is better. I mean, it is
definitely it's less harm. And to her that might be
because of the way her mind proportions thinks that might

(43:31):
be optimal, or it might appear optimal because I haven't
had anything. It's sort of like if I jump out
the window. Yeah, it's better because I'm not getting burned,
but I'm still falling, right, So is it better? Well,
I'm not getting burned, but I'm also still falling, and
so there's still the danger here. But I've noticed this

(43:51):
about people when they think about their relationships lately. I've
been having a lot of talks with my couples about
it lately, is like what's its purpose? And what I'm
discovering is most of us haven't never talked about it,
don't have a sense of what it is. And for
those of us who have a trauma and abuse history,
our belief about what is possible between two people is

(44:12):
distorted by the lens of our own experience. So I
can't say I actually know, and I say that with
a bit of humility, I hope, because I don't have
inside me a particularly good working model of what it
is to be in and I suppose an optimal relationship

(44:35):
is the best I can do right now. Well, I
guess my point about Nicole is is it's as you say,
Nicole might not have an inner working model of what
would be optimal between two people who love each other,
and so therefore is operating with the model experience that
she has and is doing her own comparing. Comparing. It's
better than that, but it seems like she's doing it

(44:57):
with the awareness that maybe some else is out there
because he's asking the question, yeah, yeah, What I.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Have done with my clients is the following, which is
that to answer this question is hard for anyone. It's
not easy for others to do. Even though they might
think that it is easy for them to answer a
question like this, it's really not. You're bonded, you know,
you're attached, and that isn't easily thrown away. And I'm

(45:28):
guessing that there are wonder if you've said this that
when he loves you, it's beautiful and it's probably a
beautiful love, and people on the outside that Ergrant would say, well,
that's all him manipulating you, and that's not necessarily true.
It's not likely true. It could be true, it's not
likely true. So what I do is I try to

(45:50):
build up a connection with the self with my client.
So for you, you are and have been on a
journey of this, covering that connection with yourself, with your needs,
your once, your desires, your emotions, yourself. You were denied
that growing up. You were definitely pushed away from whatever

(46:11):
symblance you had of that in your abusive relationship as
he isolated you even from yourself, even from your own mind.
And you've been building that up and that is the guide,
that's the central glowing orb of motivation that guides all
of us to stay or go. You know, when I

(46:34):
wake up in the morning and I guess passively decide
to stay married to my wife, that's where that radiates from,
is that me, And I'm in connection with that me
sufficiently so that I can know that I'm confident in
what I'm doing, that it's for me. I am selfishly

(46:57):
in this marriage. So getting in connection with that, What
are you? Who are you? How do you feel? What
do you need? So I've talked about connection with self
and asking yourself these questions, and being in relationships or
therapy that also ask you these questions repeatedly. What do
I feel? What do I want? What are my needs?

(47:21):
What do I feel? What do I want? What are
my needs? What's going on with you right now? Emotionally, physically, spiritually?
Who am I? What do I feel? What do I want?
What do I feel? What do I want? What do
I need? What do I need? How do I now?
We don't always get what we need or want. But
you have to know that glowing orb of inner unite

(47:44):
in order to begin to have these conversations. You can't
just be reactive to the outside because you'll get fucked.
So I'm guessing that you're in a lot more connection
with yourself. It sounds like you are, but there's probably
a lot more to go. I even will do this
with people that weren't abused growing up and are asking
themselves questions like this, because we in our society, like

(48:06):
I don't know tiktoki society, we tend to think that
there's like there's like a key, there's any answer, there's
a hack or some kind of wisdom, And certainly, you know, absorbed,
because that's basically what I'm doing right now is giving
you some sort of tiktoki wisdom. But the reality is
is that only you can define this, and you know,

(48:27):
especially if you're in an abusive relationship, everyone thinks they
have a better opinion than you, so it gets particularly weird.
But finding that inner orb of who you are, and
it's not just around this issue of should I stay
or should I go? It's what is the meaning of
my life? Why am I even fucking here? Being married

(48:48):
is a part of that, but you know, there's a
lot of things that are a part of that, So
a lot of things benefit by being connection with that.
I'm assuming that this is the case for you. I
don't know if that's the case for you. It'd be weird.
If it wasn't the case for you, that would be
the one of the things. The other thing is there
are certain questions I would ask that feeling you got
in the grocery store, do you still have it at

(49:09):
all about anything? Because if you do, fuck that shit
and fuck him, because that's bullshit. He can have his
preferences and you can consider his feelings. But if you're scared,
fuck that shit and get angry about it. And that's
the key. When you're a victim, anger is your friend.
Anger tells you when injustice is happening, and it'll motivate

(49:33):
you to fight. Now, you don't physically fight or verbally abuse,
but you stand up for your at the very least
in your mind. Doesn't It doesn't necessarily even mean that
you have to confront him about it. But you're at
the grocery. You're at the grocery store and you're about
to grab the noster peanut butter, and you get this thought,
and oh, my husband's going to be upset. Well, what's

(49:56):
the difference between accommodating someone else's preference or considering it
and being terrified or being afraid, being unsafe? Those are
two very different things. I'm worried about his reaction. What
does that mean? Am I worried about him scaring me?
Am I worried about him hurting me? Am I worried
about him being in a bad mood for five days

(50:17):
and I have to tiptoe around him? Or Am I
worried I'm just going to bother my husband, who I
don't like to bother. And I know he has a
particular pet peeve around peanut butter, and it's you know,
it's I can't relate. How do you differentiate between those
two things? Those are very important to be able to do. Also,
some people are just afraid of people that aren't intimidating

(50:39):
because you grew up like that. Now, I would guess
that every time you feel fear in relation to your husband,
it's justified. But you can't know that necessarily. It's hard,
but I would definitely zero in on do I feel fear,
because you should never feel afraid of taking an action
that is isn't harmful to anyone else, you know. I mean,

(51:05):
it's like you should. I think people you know, and
I think you know, Nicole, because you're laying it out
in your email that that was strange to feel afraid.
So I'm guessing you would know the difference between what
things you should be afraid of and things that you
shouldn't be afraid of. You know, I'm guessing ninety nine
percent of the things you feel afraid every in relation
to your husband is unjustified today included. So do you

(51:29):
do you have anything like that? I had not hearing
anything because you're not talking about that. But if you do,
then at the very least on a on a in
the moment or in that week, because that doesn't have
to do necessarily with leaving or staying. But it does
have to do with how to fully extract yourself from
the cult of your husband's attachment insecurity and you know,

(51:53):
disentangling yourself from that. So that's what I would say
to that. It's more complicated in that. But anyway, next question,
which is okay? She asked, If I remember correctly, Kirk,
you have said that infidelity is never okay except maybe
when someone is in an abusive, isolated relationship. Can you elaborate? Yes,

(52:19):
I can elaborate, Nicole, So I would never say, at
least I hope that or convey the notion that infidelity
is never okay accept in an abusive relationship. Let me
be clear, infidelity is in a non abusive relationship is
a knowingly harmful act and therefore immoral. When you know

(52:44):
that you are risking harm and you're being harmful to someone,
that is immoral. Now when you're an abusive relationship, that
is completely off the table, because, like I said, if
you're in a fiery building and the alternative is to
jump out of the third story building, risking killing yourself

(53:07):
or hurting someone on the ground, you don't have a choice.
No one has a choice in that matter. No one
has a choice in the matter. When you're completely isolated
and abused and gas lit and isolated to the point
where you can't have friends, you can't leave the house,
you can't go to the grocery store. You don't even
have agency over your own body. You're handing your body
over because you're worried he's going to rage and hurt you.

(53:31):
You're in a constant state of mental and physical rape.
And then a pastor comes along and listens to you
and says that he likes you and is at the
very least not physically harming you and maybe not verbally
abusing you. He's power abusing you, he's exploitation abusing you,
but on the surface, he's not yelling at you, he's

(53:54):
not throwing you across the room. No one is going
to turn that down, or at least most people are
gonna very much consider that, not because they're choosing to
have an affair, but because they have almost no other
choice than to jump out that window. So morality is
not a matter of this scenario.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Now.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
From the outside, and certainly the church that thinks of
you as a Buddhist tempterress, that's what they'll fucking say.
But they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
The big, big surprise there. But if you're not in
an abusive relationship and you are engaging in infidelity at
really any level, you are knowingly doing something that is harmful.
And that is the definition of immorality. If I walk

(54:40):
up to someone on the street and push them down,
I know that's going to harm them, and therefore it's immoral. Now,
immorality happens all the time, especially in a marriage. We
knowingly hurt our partner's feelings all the time. Every time
we raise our voice, every time we call them a
name which is not okay, every time we refuse to

(55:01):
listen to them, every time we I don't know, take
things out on them or something. Now, there's a fuzzy
line there, because sometimes we're distorted or confused or reactive
or something and we were not aware of the quote
unquote harm that we're doing. So you know is that
But especially when it comes to infidelity again, in a
non abusive relationship, that requires thousands of decisions typically that

(55:25):
are all knowingly risking or just flat out knowingly harming
the partner. Now, from the outside, we can look at
something and say, well it kind of makes some sense, yeah,
but it doesn't deny the immorality of it. I'm not
saying that infidelity is never okay except in an abusive relationship.
The word okay, you know, if you want to take

(55:47):
that to be a stand in for immorality. But we
are frequently immoral actors as humans. Every time that I
speed on the road, I am knowingly risking harm of
running someone over or killing myself or hurting someone. It's
a risk, right, and there are times when I absolutely

(56:09):
know that it's not justified. So, you know, we could
say all sorts of So the reason why I'm saying
this is I want people to get off of considering
immorality as some sort of like horrible, dark devil thing.
It's a thing that we do. We are human beings
where it's something to look at, not to be ashamed of,

(56:29):
but to say I shouldn't do that anymore. And when
people do it to us, we have to recognize that
we do it to other people at times. But we
have to be able to label it because we have
a word moral and immoral for a reason, and the
fucking conservatives and the religious people steal it and say
gay people are immoral. They don't know what the fuck
they're talking about. If anything, they're the immoral ones for

(56:51):
saying that gay people are a moral So fuck them.
I'm taking the word back. It's a helpful. Word is
very helpful, and it's easily defined as knowingly harmful, and
having someone that's gay is not knowingly harmful. And I
believe that was the original reason why sin, the concept
of sin existed. I know I've talked about with historians

(57:14):
and filasocos. I'm very interested in the topic, and it's
hard to know what the ancients thought of sin because
it was defined. But it makes sense to me that
when you had leadership and a group of people, you
would develop a system that would either consciously or unconsciously
try to help everyone live a happy life and dictate

(57:37):
fairness among everybody. So you are trying to help people
with decision making around what's moral and what's immoral. Thou
shalt not kill. So we need to have a conversation
about this, because when we divorce ourselves so much from
the term of morality and immorality, then we're still living

(58:01):
with the concept of immorality, because whether we have words
for it or not, we all understand. I mean other
social animals, you know, other primates, mound childrenderstand. But monkeys
they've found as well, because you know, they'll give like
kale to one monkey and grapes to another monkey, and
then the great the kale monkey will be you know,

(58:21):
if they didn't know that the other monkey got grapes,
they'll they'll eat the kale. But they see someone get grapes,
They're like, fuck you, that's im moral. I'm getting fucked,
this is injustice, this isn't fair, I'm being harmed.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Give me the fucking grapes. You know.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
So we understand this, and we have to be able
to talk about it. That's why I talk about it.
I could avoid the whole thing and avoid confusion. And
the only reason why I even bring this up over
time in videos and in audio podcasts is because therapists
will justify to clients that they're having affairs. They'll hear
from a client that, you know, the client says, I

(58:54):
have to confess I'm cheating on my husband. There are
so many fucking therapists, and anecdotally, I would say most
will figure out a way to justify it for the client.
Oh well, he's a jerk faith even in non abusive situations. Well,
he works a lot, and we've been in we've been
fighting all the time, and I just need someone to
feel close to. Okay, totally, I get that that sounds bad.

(59:18):
That doesn't justify knowingly harming another person. You either need
to divorce or don't or help you know, fix your
marriage or divorce or tell your husband you need to
be with other people. Let's figure that out or whatever.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
Or at least just acknowledge you're behaving in a way
that is knowingly harmful to another It's not for a
therapist to decide what you should or shouldn't do, but
holding up a mirror and saying, you know you're behaving
in a way that's harming another human and you know
it and you know it. Yeah, So how do you
want to sleep at night? What's your thing?

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Or would you like to talk about that?

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Yeah? And if someone says no, okay, well then so
be it. One thing we might be getting away from
here a little bit in terms of Nicole, is Cole
never unfaithful?

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Right, was never in a situation where choice was possible? That? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
So so when Nichole says that what was the question, exactly,
can you read it again?

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
You said infidelity is never okay except maybe an abusive relationship.
Can you elaborate?

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
Right? Right?

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
So, but the presumption is that Nicole was being was
engaged in infidelity, not not not the way we're talking
about what is real infidelity. We're not talking about and
even a level playing field here. So the fact that
Nicole's asking this question says to me that Nicole's still

(01:00:40):
looking at her behavior in terms of this word fidelity,
and that's a mistake, right, And she's asking I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
Know if I read this in a longer email or
I did read this part, but she still shames herself
for cheating exactly. Yeah, but it's not I don't know.
She can frame it however she wants to, but I
that's not how I would see it. You were in
one of you were in a top tier abusive relationship,
the length of time, the marker, you know. I'm sure

(01:01:09):
there's a lot more to it, obviously, but the tip
of the tip of the iceberg that that you're mentioning,
you know, in those those details, I absolutely know that
you were in a legitimate, horrific, intimate partner of violence
relations not in the TikTok version of abusive relationship, where
it's just like he didn't buy me a large fry

(01:01:33):
at McDonald's, I'm abused or whatever the fuck people say.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
Can you tell him?

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
Not like a huge fan of TikTok, but I mean
there's a lot all sorts of people on TikTok, But anyway,
there's just a greater incidence of that in my actual
experience on TikTok. But I'm talking about like legit, textbook
horrific psychological torture, the same sort of torture that you
would get in a Nazi concentration camp. Literally, the same

(01:01:58):
that you would get if you were indoctrinated into a
cult at the age that you were, you know, from birth,
and you're told, you know, all these sorts of I mean,
you were indoctrinated into a system of horrific torture for years.
And to say that you cheated on him is understandable
given the way society sees it. And it's your fucking

(01:02:21):
husband talking. You know, he's I can't believe he cheated
on me, because you know, this is like all that
he talks about, and you know, talk about it. However,
you want to with him. But personally, if I were
in your position, knowing what I know, I'd be like, look,
you forced me to be open. I should blame you
for the fact that I was abused by a pastor
because you know, anyway going on, what does repair look

(01:02:47):
like when infidelity becomes a justification for ongoing mistreatment, meaning
that he, the husband is quote unquote justifiably mistreating her.
So how do you repair the infidelity? Because you know,
I'll talk about infidelity repair, you know, like recovery. So

(01:03:07):
what does that look like, Bob.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Well, it's apples and oranges. We're not talking about repair.
I mean, I kind of feel angry right now, like
like she didn't say this, But does the husband expect
that she's gonna say she's sorry? Is that? What is that?
What this is that what you hear? Like, like, it's

(01:03:30):
just got so much Huberson, It's it's hard for me
to if that's if that's you know, I'm probably reading
into it. Okay, but fine, let's say I'm not reading
into it. Let's just say that I'm hearing it the
way it is, like, Dude, the husband is actually like
wanting an apology for getting quote cheated on after being

(01:03:51):
a dick like this, are we kidding?

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
Like?

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Really? Fuck now? Now? If they want to stay in
the relationship, I mean, that's their business. But if I
were their therapist, I'd be like, if you guys are
going to stay together, you wipe the slate clean and
you're starting over right now from scratch, right, And everything
that's taken place in the past is the past, and
the contract that you make now is the contract that

(01:04:17):
you make now that you abide by. And if anything, husband,
be ready for your own apology because you were behaving
reprehensibly and you've caused harm.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
Right, That's the part of it that I personally would
focus on, given my styles, I would say, okay, fine,
was she a grown woman when she made the Yeah,
okay fine, It is dwarfed by the millions of other harmful.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Acts that he did for years.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Yeah, So okay, husband, if you want an apology, great,
I'm all about apologies. For every apology that she gives
to you for cheating, You're going to apologize a million,
literally a million times over for what you did to her.
So let's do it. Let's go, And maybe that would
translate into ten to one or something, But that would

(01:05:05):
be the conversation. It's like, Okay, let's if we're talking
about apologies, there's a lot of apologists. Let's just say
there's a lot of apologies that have to go both directions.
Ninety nine percent of them are going to be you pal,
So I.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
Mean, that's just that's that's not passing judgment, that's just
being real about harm.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Yeah, but it's also a little judgmental. But it's also
if he is legitimately wanting to make the relationship better,
him apologizing will help him to realize what he did
wrong and will steer him away from the attachment behaviors
that are not okay and towards the behaviors that are

(01:05:45):
And if he's legitimately interested, which I think he might be.
And I've you know, I've worked with perpetrators that definitely
are They actually want to apologize. They and they just
need someone to kind of push them at direction. And
there can be a huge amount of healing, mainly from
the perpetrator honestly, when they apologize, because because their fear
often is that if they acknowledge that there's something wrong

(01:06:07):
with them or that they did something wrong, that everyone
will shame them and run away right when and when
that doesn't happen, there's a huge weight that's off their shoulders.
So that's how I would frame It's like, Okay, yeah,
so apologies, yes, and let's really let's add all the thing,
you know what. So the way that i'd do it

(01:06:29):
as a therapist, I'd be like, Okay, so you want
an apology for that? Okay, let's all talk about what
everyone wants apologies for. And then I would ask the
wife what do you want apologies for? And I would
be waiting patiently for her to really elaborate on how
many things that she would like apologies for, you know,
and how many things are interfering with her vibe with

(01:06:51):
her husband, you know, because that's essentially what he's saying,
is like the fact that you cheated is interfering with
my vibe, my trust or whatever. It's like, okay, well, great,
repair that wife, what would you like apologies for? Now?
I probably wouldn't get much out of her at the
beginning because of her victim status and her life but.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
Or difficulty with knowing how do I feel and what
do I want?

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
But I would poker face it and not reveal that
because that would feel hurtful to her if I was like,
come on, but I would put it on the agenda
and keep asking both of the sides anyway, Going on
last question, how can I continue healing from my shame
while also holding space for the pain I caused to

(01:07:35):
my husband? How can I continue healing from my shame
of cheating while also holding space for the pain I
caused my husband? What do you say to that?

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
I think there's it's necessary to shift your view of
your behavior from a person who voluntarily entered into an
affair to a person who has been a victim of
domestic violence, who's been gas lit and then was preyed

(01:08:13):
upon by an exploitive you know, pastor or whatever. And
if you're not framing it that way, then I don't
think you're going to get too far with with the
thing that you're asking about, because it's apples and oranges.

(01:08:33):
You didn't cheat the way you're saying you cheated. It's
just it's just inaccurate. It's distorted, and unless you can
look at it accurately, I don't think you're gonna get
too far with the thing that you're calling shame. Yeah,
so you know, good luck. I think you could do it,
you know, like not see yourself as you know, a

(01:08:58):
bad apple here or a bad actor or whatever, and
start seeing it. I think that's possible to do. And
one wonders how your view through an accurate lens, how
you might actually feel about what happened. I hope different.
I think different.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
Yeah, people will often listen to you, Bob, So I
would take solace in how powerful your words are.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Well, you know, I don't want to come across as
judgmental and blameing the way I was describing the way
people can be. You know, we oversimplify and you know,
the whole the thing that you were describing as tiktoky.
I believe in accuracy, though, so I expose it's an

(01:09:44):
invitation to be accurate. But you know me, I'm almost
a little bit nervous about how activated I can get.
And I have a thing about asserting power, which I think,
I think it's actually a problem, and I'm working on
it in my work life. Like you know, you do
get to actually show up here at work and can't

(01:10:07):
just sit there and listen. It's not really your job.
Your job is to actually be more than that. And
so I suppose we're right on my growth edge.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
The conclusion is from Nicole, your podcast has helped me
in countless ways and brought so much light to my life.
I wanted to write for a while now sharing this
feels like another step forward. Thank you from the bottom
of my heart. End of the meal.

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
Good luck. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
The summary of what I'll say Nicole is that there's
so much promise and optimism that I have for you
because of your journey out of the abusive relationship. There's
so many things that I'm reading between the lines. You know,
the fact that you went to India for nine months
or something, the amount of soul searching and self recognizing

(01:10:55):
that you would have to do to do something like that.
You know, that wasn't just a going to Starbucks by
yourself for an afternoon. You know, that was a huge decision,
and there were so many reasons not to right to
all the societal things, family, just the cost or the uncertainty,
and you did that. So that's just one of the

(01:11:15):
many things that I'm hearing that. You know, the fact
that you are actively building a community of other moms,
and you know of toughts and that community and that
connection and that non isolation and that break from being
in a room a shed in the backyard and going

(01:11:37):
to therapy, and that he is changing, he's better now,
and I believe you he's a lot better now, and
he has more to go. And there's a chance that
even when he is being abusive that you don't really
receive it in the same way that you did before.
But as Bob was saying, you know, you have this
internalized shame voice that is from him, and from your parents,

(01:11:59):
and from society the misogyny of it, and from religion probably,
and that has to be angrily snuffed the fuck out.
And please take care of yourself because you deserve it.