August 18, 2025 • 40 mins
Rebeccasode! Answering patron emails.
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/KIRK to get 10% off your first month.
00:00 How does trauma affect a population?
13:02 Could Rebecca have been socialized to have a different opinion?
18:49 How do clinicians process trauma?
30:19 Strom Thurmond's daughter
33:52 Can a marginalized person have awful opinions?
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August 18, 2025
The Psychology In Seattle Podcast ®
Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
Disclaimer: The content provided is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only. Nothing here constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis, or creates a counselor-client relationship. Topics discussed may generate differing points of view. If you participate (by being a guest, submitting a question, or commenting) you must do so with the knowledge that we cannot control reactions or responses from others, which may not agree with you or feel unfair. Your participation on this site is at your own risk, accepting full responsibility for any liability or harm that may result. Anything you write here may be used for discussion or endorsement of the podcast. Opinions and views expressed by the host and guest hosts are personal views. Although, we take precautions and fact check, they should not be considered facts and the opinions may change. Opinions posted by participants (such as comments) are not those of the hosts. Readers should not rely on any information found here and should perform due diligence before taking any action. For a more extensive description of factors for you to consider, please see www.psychologyinseattle.com
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/KIRK to get 10% off your first month.
00:00 How does trauma affect a population?
13:02 Could Rebecca have been socialized to have a different opinion?
18:49 How do clinicians process trauma?
30:19 Strom Thurmond's daughter
33:52 Can a marginalized person have awful opinions?
Become a member: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOUZWV1DRtHtpP2H48S7iiw/join
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/PsychologyInSeattle
Email: https://www.psychologyinseattle.com/contact
Website: https://www.psychologyinseattle.com
Merch: https://psychologyinseattle-shop.fourthwall.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/psychologyinseattle/
Facebook Official Page: https://www.facebook.com/PsychologyInSeattle/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kirk.honda
August 18, 2025
The Psychology In Seattle Podcast ®
Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
Disclaimer: The content provided is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only. Nothing here constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis, or creates a counselor-client relationship. Topics discussed may generate differing points of view. If you participate (by being a guest, submitting a question, or commenting) you must do so with the knowledge that we cannot control reactions or responses from others, which may not agree with you or feel unfair. Your participation on this site is at your own risk, accepting full responsibility for any liability or harm that may result. Anything you write here may be used for discussion or endorsement of the podcast. Opinions and views expressed by the host and guest hosts are personal views. Although, we take precautions and fact check, they should not be considered facts and the opinions may change. Opinions posted by participants (such as comments) are not those of the hosts. Readers should not rely on any information found here and should perform due diligence before taking any action. For a more extensive description of factors for you to consider, please see www.psychologyinseattle.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So, Rebecca, we have a bunch of extremely light, extremely
light emails that are really surface level and just kind
of have.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Been like like I did some reading. I was like
trying to prep and then I was like, fuck it,
I'm just gonna have to wing it because this shit
is like each one could be a master's thesis, could
be a graduate level research project. But you know, bring
it on.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
But that's why people love you because you're you're real.
If nothing you are, you're.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Real nothing, I have a real opinions.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, but you're also just a real human being. You
don't you don't edit, which is good. Yeah, people can
trust you. I can trust you. Thank you, listener nator
from Peru.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
He says, well, let's just so just everyone know this
is just my opinion as an individual. I am a
Thomas therapist. I am ninety eight point six percent Ashkenazi Jew.
Because that question is going to come in here. Oh
my god, moving the desk, Jesus Christ, that's like superintense.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I forgot to move. So I have this standing desk.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I mean, but everyone should know. It's like gigantic and
an L shape. It's not like teeny tiny, like you
just have your laptop on it, like half the room
just sunk.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, and all of the equipment is hooked up to it,
all the lights and cameras and microphones and interfaces, and.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
The five screens, six screens with many screens.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
So Listener and Natter from Peru, he says, I was
wondering if you and Rebecca might have a take on
cultural or historical trauma and how it might play out
on an entire population as a reflection of how it
plays out individually. I'm especially interested in how it plays
out in the Jewish and Palestinian communities in my view,
how the Jewish community needed to overcorrect for safety after
(01:52):
the trauma of the Holocaust, and how in view of
the current genocide in Gaza, it is natural for traumatized
people to fight back. Not making any judgment here, just
trying to describe what is happening as best I can.
By the way, I'm of Palestinian descent and I have
some close Jewish friends. Love the podcast and all the
(02:13):
co hosts are amazing. So Rebecca, the question is cultural
and historical trauma and the group and the individual, and
specifically around what Listener nat Are from Peru is saying
the Jewish community needed to overcorrect for safety after the
(02:34):
trauma of the Holocausts. So even though most, if not all, well,
there's probably a few left, but the vast majority of
people in Israel had not lived through the Holocausts themselves.
But the transgenerational or the intergenerational trauma could affect people
in a lot of ways directly and indirectly. That could
(02:57):
result in what listener Nator is saying is over correcting.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So about if we're going to do this, you cannot
shake your.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Leg, sorry, sorry, because it makes them like Shacob. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm shaking my leg because I've had my coffee and Rebecca,
what do you think?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
So this issue is so big, So first off, I
feel like I need to define terms like we're not
It's not just the Jewish identity, it's specifically that is
really Zionist conservative identity that currently controls the politics of
(03:35):
that country. You know, I'm an American Jew all the
way here in Seattle. I would never starve anyone to
get back at them for perceived crimes. So we should
probably date ourselves. We are in early August of twenty
(03:57):
twenty five, the situation in Gaza has just generated to
the point of mass famine. It's horrific. It's been horrific
for a year and a.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Half, degenerated just to make sure.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, so what is the intergenerational trauma that brings forth
this intensity? And I was thinking about for you, like,
does anybody ever write in and say, like, why were
the kirk Can you describe why the Japanese were so
awful to the Koreans in World War Two? Like you know,
(04:35):
like there's this way that people are like, oh, Rebecca
must know the answer to this, because you know she's Jewish.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
But well, of the people that listener Nator could email into,
you are perhaps the best person to answer the question. Yes,
not to say that you would know it forwards and backwards,
but I'm going to take a guess and say that
you know, you have a better answer than most people would.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, so I so, I So I'll just put more
context and so that people know we have done an
entire episode on this right when the October thing happened
where I went super in depth. So the Jewish identity
around protection, protecting ourselves, that is really identity about having
(05:20):
a strong military protecting itself under in terms of there
is no question whether it would protect itself. How that
idea of protecting itself could go to marginalizing, starving, pummeling
another population. I have to say, I don't know how
(05:41):
we got here. Honestly, it must be intergenerational trauma. It
must be that folks have built themselves up to think
this is the right thing to do. I also, when
I was in Israel in eighty six, there was a
news blackout in Israel itself. I think things have changed
(06:02):
so much it can't possibly be that people don't know
exactly what's happening. But there is some possibility that people don't.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
But even if they did have access to a lot
of the information, you know, it can be terrifying when
there are missiles and terrorist attacks that are really happening.
So I don't necessarily blame the citizen on the ground
because they're just trying to live their lives. And obviously
the palaest idiots are just trying to live their lives too,
(06:37):
and are much on average more impacted negatively by a
long shot than the average Israeli citizen. But yeah, I
just obviously, to me, I just see a lot of
people in Israel that are afraid for a lot of
good reasons and a lot of perhaps propaganda reasons. And
it's been going on our whole lives. Yeah, and this
(07:01):
isn't anything new. This is a new manifestation and it
shouldn't be downplayed. Right.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
But also like Netanyahu just gets more and more breazon
each time he comes into power with this idea that
he can protect this is the only way. And there
is a concept that people are starting to talk about
in the Jewish American world that we were taught Israel
at any cost, like you can't question is you can't
(07:27):
question Israel's existence, you can't question Israel's tactics. That's how
we were That's how I was brought up, even at
a reformed Jewish setting. And you know, to watch organizations
like Jewish Voices for Peace who are now strongly speaking
out that this is not done in my name, right,
this is this is horrific. This is this will go
(07:51):
down in history as one of the worst war crimes
of all time. I haven't seen it yet, but the
fortieth anniversary of Live Aid happened, and there was a
four part documentary on CNN.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Forty eighth fortieth fortieth of Live Aid.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, huh, and the producer said, the thing that was most.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Emotional to him, what's his face?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
What's his face? The producer, No, not Bob Geldoff, who
was produced the event, The producer of the CNN show said,
the thing that brought him to tears the most was
the idea that the American public would gather foreign oppressed,
starving people and do everything they could to raise money
to help them.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
And did you say American people, Yes, yeah, because there
was band aid, which was the British version, and Live
Aid was the American version.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah. And he was saying that he couldn't imagine America
galvanizing right now against the starving to aid to starving
people in another country. That's that's just not how our
populace works anymore. And so so many people I know
are giving absolutely everything they can to end the genocide
(09:08):
in Gaza, and you know, there's no clear way forward.
It's stopping US AID, it's stopping US military aid to Israel,
it's stopping the blockades of food, it's humanizing the Palestinian people.
(09:28):
I know, I'm not answering this guy's question.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Well do you do you think do you think it's
related specifically? In part to the Holocaust trauma being passed down.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yes, this sense of so the thing that gets said
over and over again is never again that we will
do anything we can to stop the Holocaust. The idea
it was never mentioned that we could exert a Holocaust
on another people that just like you know, that part
isn't taught. And I think that's what's gone horribly wrong,
(10:03):
is this idea. So I'm thinking of world history class.
She had all these pithy maxims up. This is ninth
grade in San Diego in nineteen ninety four. There were
all these phrases all around.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
When you were at school with Tucker Carlson, he.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Was already, he was already, he was gone.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
He was graduated.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
No, he was a year behind me. Oh and I
was only in school with him when I was in
eighth grade and he was in seventh grade. But he
was such a strong personality that like all the eighth
graders knew who he was.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Really, Yes, strong personality, how he just do He was
like popular.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Or popular, grandiose, swaggery, interesting, a big deal with the ladies. Really, yes, yeah,
uh So she had a bunch of phrases, but one
of them was power corrupts absolute power, corrupts absolutely giving
(11:02):
the Israelis who feel marginalized and scared, complete power over
the Palestinians, even though there are bombings, and of course
those things are terrifying, has you know, magnified over years
and years and years, this complete blockade. So there's this
idea that when they killed the Palestinians, attacked, Israel killed
(11:25):
lots of people, took I think believe it was like
seventy one or seventy two hostages, and all of this
current action comes out of that. So we're like beyond
an eye for an eye, I believe it's sixty thousand
children have died in this.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Like, at what point are there Israelis that use that
as justification, the Old Testament.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Eye for an eye? I'm sure there are.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
I mean, that's that?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Is that an overt That is that is the language
I grew up with, Yeah, you know, I grew up with.
I knew every I can't name them now, but I
knew every time Israel had been attacked. Growing up in
Jewish education, you know, we were taught these are all
the times that the Jews succeeded over being attacked. It
was always portrayed much more as a military thing that
(12:17):
we were.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Fighting militaries.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yes, we were strong, we were intelligent, we were better
than everyone else. We were so small, but we were
able to win over and over again. You know this
is because we are the chosen people. We deserve this land.
Like this is all of the language that I grew
up with. And it took till I was like eighteen
to be like, wait a second. And I told this
(12:42):
story the last time that a friend of mine told me, hey,
Israel is a parthid state, And I was like, what,
so you know to think that you have to have
this place and you'll do anything to keep this place
because six million of your brethren were killed by someone else.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Can you imagine going a different route when you were eighteen,
if you had a different context, like living in Israel,
for example, maybe you had a brother that was that
had been harmed by an attack or was worried, you know,
can you imagine taking a different road.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
So that's called ahl yah And many of my friends
have done that. And one of my former lovers is
still there, which she won't speak to me because of
my that I'm not supportive of what is doing.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
But you know, the freedom or the breathing room that
you have in West Coast United States. You know there's
still any Semitism, of course, but if you weren't, you know,
you're not there, and so can you imagine yourself having
absorbed all of that?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, I mean it was almost every Jewish person I knew.
We had this conversation. At some point. Everybody got caught
by the spirit. At some point, I should go make Aliyah.
I should go live in Israel.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
I should be Aliyah. What's that alia is?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
When I don't know if it's any person, but it's
any American Jew that goes to live in Israel. It's
called to make aliyah, like to go return to the
homeland and live I.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
See as a Jew, as like a true Jewish person.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
It's more like to return to your people and get
to live a Jewish life, Like what if Shabbat was observed?
Like there's all of these kind of subtleties of Jewish
life that I don't get to experience. Asn't an American
Jews to have my culture be the mainstream culture. Yeah,
it's real attractive to a lot of Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yeah, I've worked with clients, Jewish clients who would tell
me about One aspect of this is that research shows
that unless you in the United States, as a Jewish person,
live an extremely orthodox comparatively to other kinds of Jewish
people in the United States, then your kids are like
(15:08):
ninety five percent chance not likely to be observing Jewish people.
So in order to preserve culture and religion and tradition,
the only way you can do it is you either
have to be extremely swimming against the grain, swimming upstream
right to force your family and kids, who probably will
(15:31):
resist the entire way, to observe and to follow the rules,
to go to an Orthodox synagogue to force your kids
to learn Hebrew and all this stuff, or you go
to Israel. That's the only way that your grandkids are
likely to be Jewish Jewish and culture and practice. So
it's I could see that being another incentive, But you
(15:56):
didn't really answer the question, and you don't have to.
But I'm just wondering, given your experience having been absorbed,
having absorbed, because I wonder if people wonder, I know
that people wonder, how can all these people in Israel,
you know, the percentage that support the conservative military action,
(16:17):
of which there are many, you know, how can they
be that way? And the relatability that you can offer
but maybe you can't really is that you grew up
having absorbed all that stuff, but there were factors that
perhaps gave you the freedom to think outside the box
(16:39):
or to choose otherwise. Can you imagine having grown up
in Israel and being at least more sympathetic to the conservative.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I mean, so, I will say I have lots of
friends who are completely sympathetic of clients that are in
the States, who are in the States, not even people
in Israel. Yeah, who believe that Israel is doing the
exact right thing and has to defend itself. That's when
things get mess That's when it's like, how is this
defending yourself? Like how is starving the So what has happened?
(17:13):
And I'm reminded of when I was in Croatia and
the war between the Croatians and the Serbians. The Civil
War was in the nineties, But when I asked people like,
why are these animosities so intense, they would go back
to an event that happened in eleven hundreds when the Orthodox,
the Russian Orthodox and the Roman Orthodox Church split. So
(17:37):
that's how old that fight is. And the hatred is
palpable between the two groups. So would I carry Would
I have drunk the kool aid? I guess this is
what you're asking. Would I believe that it was true
that we had to do this, we had to starve
the entire Gaza population because Hamas is in every single
(18:00):
person that lives in Gaza, and any person in Gaza
wants to kill a Jew. I don't think so, just
because of how I'm wired. I think I would have
asked a lot of questions, and yet super intelligent people
that I care about completely believe it one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah. Well, let's take a break and let's answer another
question on the same topic. What do you say on.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
The same topic?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, all right, back for the break. So people have questions, Rebecca.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Annually, I didn't know if I have any answers. I
don't have answers.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Today, I think you have answers. You've given answers that
I'm quite sure are interesting slash helpful to people listening.
Annual patron, She says, I am a psychotherapist with a
private practice in Israel. Therapist private practice Israel. I am
(18:58):
heartbroken over the many lives lost over the last two
years in Gaza, Israel West Bank in Lebanon. As a family,
we have considered moving abroad multiple times. Yet recently Israel
has also become embroiled in an all out conflict with Iran.
There are no flights out anyway? Is that true?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I could easily be nothing. Is like being in the
Jerusalem airport when something goes down and you're just stuck.
Beth has a whole story about this. The only flight
out she could get during the Gulf War was still London.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Huh, because of the worries of being shot down.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Attack or no one will fly in her out. They're like,
I'm not going, you.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Know, yeah, the danger seems more imminent, and I'm seeing
the impact on my patients. One burning question many of
my patients ask is how can I remain so calm
with around shooting missiles at us nightly? In truth, I'm
concerned I might be a little dissociated from the danger
that they feel. Okay, so the annual patrons.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So the patron, the clinician themselves has become more and
more numb or can compartmentalized.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I don't know the answer right, numb, compartmentalized or perspective
or something.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So focused on holding her client's energy. I mean I
find that sometimes, don't you, That, like you kind of
are just so focused on holding the client's experience.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
That yeah, yeah, yeah, there's pros and cons. Right, there's
a side of it that is denying of one's needs.
But I think there's another part of it of meaning
and purpose of well, with this fear and worry and concern,
I'm I'm going to funnel it into something that I
can do, which is to help other people. And I
(20:48):
don't think that's necessarily being a denial.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, I mean, I will say that with the Trump election,
I was like, oh, here we go, and all my
clients were just beside themselves and there was a level
of calm that I had, and they're like, why are you
so common? I was like, I don't know. But more
and more I'm hearing of people leaving the States and
I'm like, did I miss the boat?
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Like?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Should I have already planned to leave already?
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I think everyone has a different gauge about that sort
of thing. You know, for some people it's important to
at least contemplate leaving for various reasons, and I think
for other people it's just not Like for me, it's it's.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Like where would it go?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Well, not only that, but it's just not on the table,
like the the concerns. I mean, part of it has
to do with privilege, but also just I am of
this land. My people have been here for over one
hundred years, which you know, on the global scale isn't
very long, but for an American, it's a long time
(21:54):
to have been raised and have been farmers in Washington State,
you know, and.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
You've always lived here.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, So I just it just isn't really a question.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
So how is that clinician feeling? So I would say,
check in with your body just to make sure, you know,
do you have insomiat are you developing an ulcer? Like
there are ways that your body can act out that
you might not even realize are happening. That happens sometimes
in really traumatic times. That happened to me during the pandemic.
(22:32):
I got excruciatingly constipated and like didn't even realize it.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, I looking back at the pandemic, of course knew
that it wasn't a great time, but I too was
not aware of the toll that was taking on my
mind and soul. That's typical for me. But after a
certain level of therapy and age, you'd think I wouldn't
be that unaware.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
But coping is crazy. So I'll give the flip side
of all this. There's a serial arsenist in my neighborhood
right now. Do you know about this? They burn? Oh god,
they burnt the Mount Baker Beach house where the lifeguards.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Are, you know that where they I think I heard
about that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
They burnt the mortuary at the beginning of Columbus City,
which is like a landmark. Oh really, Yeah, it's so
much worse in public in person than it is in
the photos. And then there's was like at least four
house fires that are connected and that I couldn't. I
couldn't hold it together. Like my clients who lived in
(23:39):
the neighborhood came and sobbing. I sobbed with them.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Oh that's just like a block from your office, right.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, I could. The day the mortuary burnt, the smell
was so bad my eyes were burning, my I started coughing,
like whatever was in the building, and it was just
the front half, it wasn't the back half with the
bodies in it and all that. I thank god, all
the bodies are fine and they've now moved everything. But
it was like it hit me so bad. I had
(24:07):
a client crying in my office and I was just
crying with her. I was like, this is the worst,
this is the worst. So I will say, you know,
there's times where I can hold it together. There's times
where I fall apart. But that's part of the work,
is the ebbs on the flows of that.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Yeah, yeah, just another last astects I'll say about the
decision to move or other kinds, or more broadly, what
this therapist at Israel is getting at is how come
all the people that I feel akin to, you know,
people who see the world as I do, they're all
(24:49):
quote unquote freaking out and I'm not. And the thing
that I'll say about that is that I've noticed for
decades now that each of us absorbs the reality of
life and the world and news and humanity and global
(25:10):
crises in a cyclical matter. In that for you therapists
and Israel, you might have freaked out earlier and the
freak out quote unquote resolved or and you could say numbness,
but you could also just say a certain.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Level of growdedness.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, I've grieved. I've made plans, I've accepted the unacceptable,
I've accepted the lack of power and control I have
over this, and I'm satisfied with what I'm doing, and
i just have to move forward. And other people are
(25:52):
on a different point of that cycle. And because what
I see a lot of people doing is that they
will shame themsel or they will be shamed for not
freaking out with everyone else, as if they don't care,
or they're sticking their head in his hand, or they're
complicit with the oppressor or the problem. And I just
(26:14):
think that is complete bullshit. No one can judge another
person for not freaking out, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
And also it's the level of support. So this question
came up. You know, I do that tarot thing the
other day another person and we did a reading for
someone who was who had decided to leave and was
moving to Spain like eminently and had a plan and
was selling off everything, and we had an interesting conversation
with them. And when the co host on that show, Sylvia,
(26:47):
the person who was moving, has known them for decades
and said, you know, I could see why you wouldn't
need to move. You have such a strong community here
there's so much activism that you do here. And I
thought that was really interesting that the person who was
moving could say to another person, I could see why
you wouldn't need to move. This place still fills you.
(27:09):
You still get to do what you love here. And
so the classic Another classic example was when I was
in Spain for a month and learned all about the
Franco regime and all of that, the idea that Picasso
left and Moreau stayed, and you had these two great
artists who made such different choices under a fascist regime,
(27:32):
and I just I got really into Moreau for a while,
like how did he stay? He kept his people laughing,
he did all these things, He made some super interesting art,
he said, it started setting his art on fire, like
there was Yeah, sometimes people stay and sometimes we'll.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Go yeah, And I love all that. And even if
people stay and they're not an activist, everyone has the
right to of their lives. And it's as if you're
not a true liberal, if you're not on the edge
of leaving the United States right now, and that is
(28:09):
fucking bullshit, Like that kind of infighting is you know
exactly what the opposition wants us to do. So everyone
you know, make your own choices about that, and don't
feel like you have to defend yourself at all, and
definitely don't attack other people for coming to a different
(28:30):
conclusion about that.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
I also strongly believe that if I have to go,
it will be someone from this podcast listener that will
save me. I have no other contacts around the world.
I have no other plan.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
But what do you mean another podcast? Is that? What
take you in? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I think that you know, if y'all so.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Send in your emails, if you have an extra couch.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, if it's really if if this country comes inhospitable,
becomes inhospitable my own, like literally, you.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Are my own countries? Are you thinking about?
Speaker 2 (29:01):
I mean, I don't know what where would take me? Canada, Mexico, Canada, Mexico.
Ireland seems to like the Lesbians right now. I don't
speak Spanish, you know, Scandinavia. I don't know Portugal. Everyone's
going to Portugal.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Oh yeah, you gotta you gotta think about Sweden. I mean,
Sweden's better at us and everything.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, if you would have me, and.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
From my understanding, pretty much everyone speaks English in Sweden.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I'm a really good trauma therapist.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
That's some of my best. My favorite bands are from Sweden.
I mean, you got First Aid Kit rock set.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
They've got Girl in Red from Sweden. Girl in Red, Yes,
I don't know that lesbian. There's a dead girl in
the pool summer Depression.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
She's the best, sounds sounds interesting. I love her h
radio department. I think is Abba Abba of course. Yeah,
all right, just take a break and another email along
these lines or back from the Actually, I don't know
(30:09):
from what we no, no, this is a completely different thing.
But well I can't remember. Long term annual patron and
YouTube member Brandon from God Knows Where. Thank you for
being a long term annual patrin and YouTube member, Brandon,
he says, Hi, Kirk and Rebecca. First, I don't know
(30:32):
if there's a lot of Brandon's in Sweden. First, I
love the podcast and particularly get excited whenever I hear
or rebeccasode. I hope this email isn't taken the wrong way,
but I heard something that Rebecca question that upsetted me.
That upset me. During your episode titled Groomer's Turmeric and Bigots,
(30:53):
you briefly mentioned Storm Thurmond, a racist and anti civil
rights senator from South Alina at his half black child
when you mentioned that Thurman had a child. And by
the way, this must have been you.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Because I, yes, no, so I remember this and I have.
So the question is, did I say that that child
was born out of love or did I mention that
that child was born out of rape?
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
And I did not mention that that child was born
out of rape, And that was my because I realised
I was so freaked out that I.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Had like right. So, so I don't remember you talking
about her this and I don't know anything about the story,
but Brandon is saying yeah. From the episode, the impression
was that Thurman and this woman had a secret relationship.
They were like in love. But it sounds like the
(31:45):
real story is that the she was.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
An employee, was raped. Yeah, she was. She was an
employee of the family he raped her.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah. He was twenty two and she was sixteen. Carrie
carry Butler, Yes, and he was their domestic servant, so
she was sixteen. Yes, and this was in the twenties.
It sounds like, okay, so you just so it sounds
like you knew this.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
I did, and I'm very sorry that I wasn't more explicit.
Often we are bringing up things on the fly. Yeah,
and I'm just kind of yeah, so I but I
will say what was shocking about that was that the
way that and I did say it right on the air.
Someone said I made it sound like storm and.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
It's strong strong, Oh strom Strom. I think I said
storm earlier. Yeah, well in the email it's spelled storm,
but I think.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
It's a strom Thurman. Anyways, we are of the age
that he was a major player in US politics, and
his anti black rhetoric was so intense growing up. He
was so racist and it was shocking to think of
him having any kind of contact with anyone besides white people.
(33:10):
When I learned that he had a child, I mean,
it's not surprising because power over happens all the time,
and rapist one way to have power over. But yeah,
I want to apologize that I didn't mention how awful
he was that he was also a rapist. Yeah, along
with being a horrible, horrible bigot.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Brandon goes on to say, anyways, love the podcast, Anyways,
anyone who you both taught me so much about myself
and about relationships, And because of listening to this podcast,
I am becoming a therapist as my second career.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
It's so cool. Yeah, wow, welcome to the party. Party on.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Patron Noah from this is like a speed route. It is. Well,
there's so many Rebecca patron Noah from Queens. She Queens
writes and it says hello, doctor Kirkut. Rebecca, thank you
so much for responding to my email. It was so
insightful and I found Rebecca's empathy as a Jewish woman
to be amazing. Okay, just chiming in. I don't remember specifically.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
This is the one about the boyfriend has an anti
Semitic friend. Why is my memory so good?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Going on? I'm wondering if it is of interest to
you that this sexist and any semitic friend of my
exes is an extreme liberal and a gay man and
an enrolled member of the Native American tribe. Oh, I
see so in the email.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
So can a marginalized person be awful in other ways? Yes?
Yeah yeah. And the sexism and the among gay men
is no joke. There are some gay men that really
really hate women, and hating Jews is very popular. I
would never there are tons of marginalized groups they hate Jews.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Yeah, just look at Kanye West.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yeah, do I have to.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Going on? What have your encounters been with sexism in
instead of liberals and sexism? Well, what about liberals specifically?
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Are liberal sexists?
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (35:22):
I mean some of the the women's movement comes out
of the Vietnam War movement, where women were treated like
such crap, and you know, white men felt like they
had all of the important roles and should do all
the important things and women should just run the mimeograph
machine and be there to quench men's sexual appetites. Out
(35:47):
of that, sexism comes to the women's movement where they're like,
why am I fighting so hard for something when I'm
getting treated like such shit? Yeah, So there was a
long history of sexism in liberal movements and women having
to fight extremely independently. I mean, I would say so,
(36:09):
and then another example of that. So the reason that's LGBT,
the reason that l starts it off is that the
sexism in the gay community for decades and the acknowledgment
that if it wasn't for lesbian women, gay men wouldn't
have survived the AIDS crisis, right like it is specifically, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Because I thought it was just that there was not
just but Yeah, it's funny because I find that most
people don't know or forget or weren't around when these
terms are being used. But it took me a long
time to put L first because for many years it
(36:50):
was GGLB, and it was in the TT it was
just GLB. Well for a while I was gays and lesbians.
Then it was like, well, what not bisexual. So that's
that first movement to have the letters. So it was GLB,
and then it was GLBT, and then it was LGBT.
So the the vibe that I got was because you know,
(37:13):
at the university there's a lot of conversations around this
kind of thing, and I the vibe that I got
was the movement away from having men be the norm
and women.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Being the secondary area.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Yeah, you know it's like, oh there's a doctor, Oh
there's a female doctor, you know, and so like with
he or she, I remember there's in the academia. There
was this huge movement to say she or he just
as to make academic mix it up. Yeah, and I
remember that in the nineties, and then I remember at
(37:48):
the same time it was it went LG and so
I I my interpretation was it was just another element
of that movement of just like, let's not always put
men first, But you're saying it's specifically around you.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Know, it's specifically to acknowledge that without lesbians, gay men
would have not survived the AIDS epidemic, That it was
lesbians that stood up and cared for so many men
that didn't have families.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Interesting. Yeah, I mean what you'll hear, specifically Patronoa from
Queen's about marginalized people being bigoted is that one they
have internalized the the dominance narrative, and two they're trying
to appeal to the dominant narrative by acting like the
(38:42):
dominant narrative. Right, It's like, hey, white people, I'm racist too,
Can I now be accepted? And that's absolutely potentially part
of it and obviously internalized bigotry. But also some people
are just bigots and they just happen to be people
of color, are happened to be liberals. So it's not
(39:02):
always explained through the appeal to you know, the groups
of power. Anyone can be bigoted, anyone can be us
versus them.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Lots of marginalized populations are also extremely homophobic, like this
idea that we don't see the oppression of one and
the oppression of all. Yeah, no, it takes you gotta
work to get over this stuff.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah, and I think it's changing. But there was a
simplistic notion among the masses, you know, like on TikTok
and stuff, that if you're a person of color, like
everything you think and say is okay, and it's just
like what the fuck? Right anyway, well, what the fuck?
And on that note, let's end here, and everyone out there,
(39:48):
please take care of yourself
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Because we really we love you and you're going to
rescue us when the shit hits the fans, So take
care of yourself so you can take care of us.
So, Rebecca, we have a bunch of extremely light, extremely
light emails that are really surface level and just kind
of have.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Been like like I did some reading. I was like
trying to prep and then I was like, fuck it,
I'm just gonna have to wing it because this shit
is like each one could be a master's thesis, could
be a graduate level research project. But you know, bring
it on.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
But that's why people love you because you're you're real.
If nothing you are, you're.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Real nothing, I have a real opinions.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, but you're also just a real human being. You
don't you don't edit, which is good. Yeah, people can
trust you. I can trust you. Thank you, listener nator
from Peru.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
He says, well, let's just so just everyone know this
is just my opinion as an individual. I am a
Thomas therapist. I am ninety eight point six percent Ashkenazi Jew.
Because that question is going to come in here. Oh
my god, moving the desk, Jesus Christ, that's like superintense.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I forgot to move. So I have this standing desk.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I mean, but everyone should know. It's like gigantic and
an L shape. It's not like teeny tiny, like you
just have your laptop on it, like half the room
just sunk.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, and all of the equipment is hooked up to it,
all the lights and cameras and microphones and interfaces, and.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
The five screens, six screens with many screens.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
So Listener and Natter from Peru, he says, I was
wondering if you and Rebecca might have a take on
cultural or historical trauma and how it might play out
on an entire population as a reflection of how it
plays out individually. I'm especially interested in how it plays
out in the Jewish and Palestinian communities in my view,
how the Jewish community needed to overcorrect for safety after
(01:52):
the trauma of the Holocaust, and how in view of
the current genocide in Gaza, it is natural for traumatized
people to fight back. Not making any judgment here, just
trying to describe what is happening as best I can.
By the way, I'm of Palestinian descent and I have
some close Jewish friends. Love the podcast and all the
(02:13):
co hosts are amazing. So Rebecca, the question is cultural
and historical trauma and the group and the individual, and
specifically around what Listener nat Are from Peru is saying
the Jewish community needed to overcorrect for safety after the
(02:34):
trauma of the Holocausts. So even though most, if not all, well,
there's probably a few left, but the vast majority of
people in Israel had not lived through the Holocausts themselves.
But the transgenerational or the intergenerational trauma could affect people
in a lot of ways directly and indirectly. That could
(02:57):
result in what listener Nator is saying is over correcting.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So about if we're going to do this, you cannot
shake your.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Leg, sorry, sorry, because it makes them like Shacob. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm shaking my leg because I've had my coffee and Rebecca,
what do you think?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
So this issue is so big, So first off, I
feel like I need to define terms like we're not
It's not just the Jewish identity, it's specifically that is
really Zionist conservative identity that currently controls the politics of
(03:35):
that country. You know, I'm an American Jew all the
way here in Seattle. I would never starve anyone to
get back at them for perceived crimes. So we should
probably date ourselves. We are in early August of twenty
(03:57):
twenty five, the situation in Gaza has just generated to
the point of mass famine. It's horrific. It's been horrific
for a year and a.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Half, degenerated just to make sure.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, so what is the intergenerational trauma that brings forth
this intensity? And I was thinking about for you, like,
does anybody ever write in and say, like, why were
the kirk Can you describe why the Japanese were so
awful to the Koreans in World War Two? Like you know,
(04:35):
like there's this way that people are like, oh, Rebecca
must know the answer to this, because you know she's Jewish.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
But well, of the people that listener Nator could email into,
you are perhaps the best person to answer the question. Yes,
not to say that you would know it forwards and backwards,
but I'm going to take a guess and say that
you know, you have a better answer than most people would.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, so I so, I So I'll just put more
context and so that people know we have done an
entire episode on this right when the October thing happened
where I went super in depth. So the Jewish identity
around protection, protecting ourselves, that is really identity about having
(05:20):
a strong military protecting itself under in terms of there
is no question whether it would protect itself. How that
idea of protecting itself could go to marginalizing, starving, pummeling
another population. I have to say, I don't know how
(05:41):
we got here. Honestly, it must be intergenerational trauma. It
must be that folks have built themselves up to think
this is the right thing to do. I also, when
I was in Israel in eighty six, there was a
news blackout in Israel itself. I think things have changed
(06:02):
so much it can't possibly be that people don't know
exactly what's happening. But there is some possibility that people don't.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
But even if they did have access to a lot
of the information, you know, it can be terrifying when
there are missiles and terrorist attacks that are really happening.
So I don't necessarily blame the citizen on the ground
because they're just trying to live their lives. And obviously
the palaest idiots are just trying to live their lives too,
(06:37):
and are much on average more impacted negatively by a
long shot than the average Israeli citizen. But yeah, I
just obviously, to me, I just see a lot of
people in Israel that are afraid for a lot of
good reasons and a lot of perhaps propaganda reasons. And
it's been going on our whole lives. Yeah, and this
(07:01):
isn't anything new. This is a new manifestation and it
shouldn't be downplayed. Right.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
But also like Netanyahu just gets more and more breazon
each time he comes into power with this idea that
he can protect this is the only way. And there
is a concept that people are starting to talk about
in the Jewish American world that we were taught Israel
at any cost, like you can't question is you can't
(07:27):
question Israel's existence, you can't question Israel's tactics. That's how
we were That's how I was brought up, even at
a reformed Jewish setting. And you know, to watch organizations
like Jewish Voices for Peace who are now strongly speaking
out that this is not done in my name, right,
this is this is horrific. This is this will go
(07:51):
down in history as one of the worst war crimes
of all time. I haven't seen it yet, but the
fortieth anniversary of Live Aid happened, and there was a
four part documentary on CNN.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Forty eighth fortieth fortieth of Live Aid.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, huh, and the producer said, the thing that was most.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Emotional to him, what's his face?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
What's his face? The producer, No, not Bob Geldoff, who
was produced the event, The producer of the CNN show said,
the thing that brought him to tears the most was
the idea that the American public would gather foreign oppressed,
starving people and do everything they could to raise money
to help them.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
And did you say American people, Yes, yeah, because there
was band aid, which was the British version, and Live
Aid was the American version.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah. And he was saying that he couldn't imagine America
galvanizing right now against the starving to aid to starving
people in another country. That's that's just not how our
populace works anymore. And so so many people I know
are giving absolutely everything they can to end the genocide
(09:08):
in Gaza, and you know, there's no clear way forward.
It's stopping US AID, it's stopping US military aid to Israel,
it's stopping the blockades of food, it's humanizing the Palestinian people.
(09:28):
I know, I'm not answering this guy's question.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Well do you do you think do you think it's
related specifically? In part to the Holocaust trauma being passed down.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yes, this sense of so the thing that gets said
over and over again is never again that we will
do anything we can to stop the Holocaust. The idea
it was never mentioned that we could exert a Holocaust
on another people that just like you know, that part
isn't taught. And I think that's what's gone horribly wrong,
(10:03):
is this idea. So I'm thinking of world history class.
She had all these pithy maxims up. This is ninth
grade in San Diego in nineteen ninety four. There were
all these phrases all around.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
When you were at school with Tucker Carlson, he.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Was already, he was already, he was gone.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
He was graduated.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
No, he was a year behind me. Oh and I
was only in school with him when I was in
eighth grade and he was in seventh grade. But he
was such a strong personality that like all the eighth
graders knew who he was.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Really, Yes, strong personality, how he just do He was
like popular.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Or popular, grandiose, swaggery, interesting, a big deal with the ladies. Really, yes, yeah,
uh So she had a bunch of phrases, but one
of them was power corrupts absolute power, corrupts absolutely giving
(11:02):
the Israelis who feel marginalized and scared, complete power over
the Palestinians, even though there are bombings, and of course
those things are terrifying, has you know, magnified over years
and years and years, this complete blockade. So there's this
idea that when they killed the Palestinians, attacked, Israel killed
(11:25):
lots of people, took I think believe it was like
seventy one or seventy two hostages, and all of this
current action comes out of that. So we're like beyond
an eye for an eye, I believe it's sixty thousand
children have died in this.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Like, at what point are there Israelis that use that
as justification, the Old Testament.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Eye for an eye? I'm sure there are.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
I mean, that's that?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Is that an overt That is that is the language
I grew up with, Yeah, you know, I grew up with.
I knew every I can't name them now, but I
knew every time Israel had been attacked. Growing up in
Jewish education, you know, we were taught these are all
the times that the Jews succeeded over being attacked. It
was always portrayed much more as a military thing that
(12:17):
we were.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Fighting militaries.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yes, we were strong, we were intelligent, we were better
than everyone else. We were so small, but we were
able to win over and over again. You know this
is because we are the chosen people. We deserve this land.
Like this is all of the language that I grew
up with. And it took till I was like eighteen
to be like, wait a second. And I told this
(12:42):
story the last time that a friend of mine told me, hey,
Israel is a parthid state, And I was like, what,
so you know to think that you have to have
this place and you'll do anything to keep this place
because six million of your brethren were killed by someone else.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Can you imagine going a different route when you were eighteen,
if you had a different context, like living in Israel,
for example, maybe you had a brother that was that
had been harmed by an attack or was worried, you know,
can you imagine taking a different road.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
So that's called ahl yah And many of my friends
have done that. And one of my former lovers is
still there, which she won't speak to me because of
my that I'm not supportive of what is doing.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
But you know, the freedom or the breathing room that
you have in West Coast United States. You know there's
still any Semitism, of course, but if you weren't, you know,
you're not there, and so can you imagine yourself having
absorbed all of that?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, I mean it was almost every Jewish person I knew.
We had this conversation. At some point. Everybody got caught
by the spirit. At some point, I should go make Aliyah.
I should go live in Israel.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
I should be Aliyah. What's that alia is?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
When I don't know if it's any person, but it's
any American Jew that goes to live in Israel. It's
called to make aliyah, like to go return to the
homeland and live I.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
See as a Jew, as like a true Jewish person.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
It's more like to return to your people and get
to live a Jewish life, Like what if Shabbat was observed?
Like there's all of these kind of subtleties of Jewish
life that I don't get to experience. Asn't an American
Jews to have my culture be the mainstream culture. Yeah,
it's real attractive to a lot of Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yeah, I've worked with clients, Jewish clients who would tell
me about One aspect of this is that research shows
that unless you in the United States, as a Jewish person,
live an extremely orthodox comparatively to other kinds of Jewish
people in the United States, then your kids are like
(15:08):
ninety five percent chance not likely to be observing Jewish people.
So in order to preserve culture and religion and tradition,
the only way you can do it is you either
have to be extremely swimming against the grain, swimming upstream
right to force your family and kids, who probably will
(15:31):
resist the entire way, to observe and to follow the rules,
to go to an Orthodox synagogue to force your kids
to learn Hebrew and all this stuff, or you go
to Israel. That's the only way that your grandkids are
likely to be Jewish Jewish and culture and practice. So
it's I could see that being another incentive, But you
(15:56):
didn't really answer the question, and you don't have to.
But I'm just wondering, given your experience having been absorbed,
having absorbed, because I wonder if people wonder, I know
that people wonder, how can all these people in Israel,
you know, the percentage that support the conservative military action,
(16:17):
of which there are many, you know, how can they
be that way? And the relatability that you can offer
but maybe you can't really is that you grew up
having absorbed all that stuff, but there were factors that
perhaps gave you the freedom to think outside the box
(16:39):
or to choose otherwise. Can you imagine having grown up
in Israel and being at least more sympathetic to the conservative.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I mean, so, I will say I have lots of
friends who are completely sympathetic of clients that are in
the States, who are in the States, not even people
in Israel. Yeah, who believe that Israel is doing the
exact right thing and has to defend itself. That's when
things get mess That's when it's like, how is this
defending yourself? Like how is starving the So what has happened?
(17:13):
And I'm reminded of when I was in Croatia and
the war between the Croatians and the Serbians. The Civil
War was in the nineties, But when I asked people like,
why are these animosities so intense, they would go back
to an event that happened in eleven hundreds when the Orthodox,
the Russian Orthodox and the Roman Orthodox Church split. So
(17:37):
that's how old that fight is. And the hatred is
palpable between the two groups. So would I carry Would
I have drunk the kool aid? I guess this is
what you're asking. Would I believe that it was true
that we had to do this, we had to starve
the entire Gaza population because Hamas is in every single
(18:00):
person that lives in Gaza, and any person in Gaza
wants to kill a Jew. I don't think so, just
because of how I'm wired. I think I would have
asked a lot of questions, and yet super intelligent people
that I care about completely believe it one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah. Well, let's take a break and let's answer another
question on the same topic. What do you say on.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
The same topic?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, all right, back for the break. So people have questions, Rebecca.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Annually, I didn't know if I have any answers. I
don't have answers.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Today, I think you have answers. You've given answers that
I'm quite sure are interesting slash helpful to people listening.
Annual patron, She says, I am a psychotherapist with a
private practice in Israel. Therapist private practice Israel. I am
(18:58):
heartbroken over the many lives lost over the last two
years in Gaza, Israel West Bank in Lebanon. As a family,
we have considered moving abroad multiple times. Yet recently Israel
has also become embroiled in an all out conflict with Iran.
There are no flights out anyway? Is that true?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I could easily be nothing. Is like being in the
Jerusalem airport when something goes down and you're just stuck.
Beth has a whole story about this. The only flight
out she could get during the Gulf War was still London.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Huh, because of the worries of being shot down.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Attack or no one will fly in her out. They're like,
I'm not going, you.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Know, yeah, the danger seems more imminent, and I'm seeing
the impact on my patients. One burning question many of
my patients ask is how can I remain so calm
with around shooting missiles at us nightly? In truth, I'm
concerned I might be a little dissociated from the danger
that they feel. Okay, so the annual patrons.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So the patron, the clinician themselves has become more and
more numb or can compartmentalized.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I don't know the answer right, numb, compartmentalized or perspective
or something.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So focused on holding her client's energy. I mean I
find that sometimes, don't you, That, like you kind of
are just so focused on holding the client's experience.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
That yeah, yeah, yeah, there's pros and cons. Right, there's
a side of it that is denying of one's needs.
But I think there's another part of it of meaning
and purpose of well, with this fear and worry and concern,
I'm I'm going to funnel it into something that I
can do, which is to help other people. And I
(20:48):
don't think that's necessarily being a denial.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, I mean, I will say that with the Trump election,
I was like, oh, here we go, and all my
clients were just beside themselves and there was a level
of calm that I had, and they're like, why are you
so common? I was like, I don't know. But more
and more I'm hearing of people leaving the States and
I'm like, did I miss the boat?
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Like?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Should I have already planned to leave already?
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I think everyone has a different gauge about that sort
of thing. You know, for some people it's important to
at least contemplate leaving for various reasons, and I think
for other people it's just not Like for me, it's it's.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Like where would it go?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Well, not only that, but it's just not on the table,
like the the concerns. I mean, part of it has
to do with privilege, but also just I am of
this land. My people have been here for over one
hundred years, which you know, on the global scale isn't
very long, but for an American, it's a long time
(21:54):
to have been raised and have been farmers in Washington State,
you know, and.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
You've always lived here.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, So I just it just isn't really a question.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
So how is that clinician feeling? So I would say,
check in with your body just to make sure, you know,
do you have insomiat are you developing an ulcer? Like
there are ways that your body can act out that
you might not even realize are happening. That happens sometimes
in really traumatic times. That happened to me during the pandemic.
(22:32):
I got excruciatingly constipated and like didn't even realize it.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, I looking back at the pandemic, of course knew
that it wasn't a great time, but I too was
not aware of the toll that was taking on my
mind and soul. That's typical for me. But after a
certain level of therapy and age, you'd think I wouldn't
be that unaware.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
But coping is crazy. So I'll give the flip side
of all this. There's a serial arsenist in my neighborhood
right now. Do you know about this? They burn? Oh god,
they burnt the Mount Baker Beach house where the lifeguards.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Are, you know that where they I think I heard
about that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
They burnt the mortuary at the beginning of Columbus City,
which is like a landmark. Oh really, Yeah, it's so
much worse in public in person than it is in
the photos. And then there's was like at least four
house fires that are connected and that I couldn't. I
couldn't hold it together. Like my clients who lived in
(23:39):
the neighborhood came and sobbing. I sobbed with them.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Oh that's just like a block from your office, right.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, I could. The day the mortuary burnt, the smell
was so bad my eyes were burning, my I started coughing,
like whatever was in the building, and it was just
the front half, it wasn't the back half with the
bodies in it and all that. I thank god, all
the bodies are fine and they've now moved everything. But
it was like it hit me so bad. I had
(24:07):
a client crying in my office and I was just
crying with her. I was like, this is the worst,
this is the worst. So I will say, you know,
there's times where I can hold it together. There's times
where I fall apart. But that's part of the work,
is the ebbs on the flows of that.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Yeah, yeah, just another last astects I'll say about the
decision to move or other kinds, or more broadly, what
this therapist at Israel is getting at is how come
all the people that I feel akin to, you know,
people who see the world as I do, they're all
(24:49):
quote unquote freaking out and I'm not. And the thing
that I'll say about that is that I've noticed for
decades now that each of us absorbs the reality of
life and the world and news and humanity and global
(25:10):
crises in a cyclical matter. In that for you therapists
and Israel, you might have freaked out earlier and the
freak out quote unquote resolved or and you could say numbness,
but you could also just say a certain.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Level of growdedness.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, I've grieved. I've made plans, I've accepted the unacceptable,
I've accepted the lack of power and control I have
over this, and I'm satisfied with what I'm doing, and
i just have to move forward. And other people are
(25:52):
on a different point of that cycle. And because what
I see a lot of people doing is that they
will shame themsel or they will be shamed for not
freaking out with everyone else, as if they don't care,
or they're sticking their head in his hand, or they're
complicit with the oppressor or the problem. And I just
(26:14):
think that is complete bullshit. No one can judge another
person for not freaking out, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
And also it's the level of support. So this question
came up. You know, I do that tarot thing the
other day another person and we did a reading for
someone who was who had decided to leave and was
moving to Spain like eminently and had a plan and
was selling off everything, and we had an interesting conversation
with them. And when the co host on that show, Sylvia,
(26:47):
the person who was moving, has known them for decades
and said, you know, I could see why you wouldn't
need to move. You have such a strong community here
there's so much activism that you do here. And I
thought that was really interesting that the person who was
moving could say to another person, I could see why
you wouldn't need to move. This place still fills you.
(27:09):
You still get to do what you love here. And
so the classic Another classic example was when I was
in Spain for a month and learned all about the
Franco regime and all of that, the idea that Picasso
left and Moreau stayed, and you had these two great
artists who made such different choices under a fascist regime,
(27:32):
and I just I got really into Moreau for a while,
like how did he stay? He kept his people laughing,
he did all these things, He made some super interesting art,
he said, it started setting his art on fire, like
there was Yeah, sometimes people stay and sometimes we'll.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Go yeah, And I love all that. And even if
people stay and they're not an activist, everyone has the
right to of their lives. And it's as if you're
not a true liberal, if you're not on the edge
of leaving the United States right now, and that is
(28:09):
fucking bullshit, Like that kind of infighting is you know
exactly what the opposition wants us to do. So everyone
you know, make your own choices about that, and don't
feel like you have to defend yourself at all, and
definitely don't attack other people for coming to a different
(28:30):
conclusion about that.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
I also strongly believe that if I have to go,
it will be someone from this podcast listener that will
save me. I have no other contacts around the world.
I have no other plan.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
But what do you mean another podcast? Is that? What
take you in? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I think that you know, if y'all so.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Send in your emails, if you have an extra couch.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, if it's really if if this country comes inhospitable,
becomes inhospitable my own, like literally, you.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Are my own countries? Are you thinking about?
Speaker 2 (29:01):
I mean, I don't know what where would take me? Canada, Mexico, Canada, Mexico.
Ireland seems to like the Lesbians right now. I don't
speak Spanish, you know, Scandinavia. I don't know Portugal. Everyone's
going to Portugal.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Oh yeah, you gotta you gotta think about Sweden. I mean,
Sweden's better at us and everything.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, if you would have me, and.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
From my understanding, pretty much everyone speaks English in Sweden.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I'm a really good trauma therapist.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
That's some of my best. My favorite bands are from Sweden.
I mean, you got First Aid Kit rock set.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
They've got Girl in Red from Sweden. Girl in Red, Yes,
I don't know that lesbian. There's a dead girl in
the pool summer Depression.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
She's the best, sounds sounds interesting. I love her h
radio department. I think is Abba Abba of course. Yeah,
all right, just take a break and another email along
these lines or back from the Actually, I don't know
(30:09):
from what we no, no, this is a completely different thing.
But well I can't remember. Long term annual patron and
YouTube member Brandon from God Knows Where. Thank you for
being a long term annual patrin and YouTube member, Brandon,
he says, Hi, Kirk and Rebecca. First, I don't know
(30:32):
if there's a lot of Brandon's in Sweden. First, I
love the podcast and particularly get excited whenever I hear
or rebeccasode. I hope this email isn't taken the wrong way,
but I heard something that Rebecca question that upsetted me.
That upset me. During your episode titled Groomer's Turmeric and Bigots,
(30:53):
you briefly mentioned Storm Thurmond, a racist and anti civil
rights senator from South Alina at his half black child
when you mentioned that Thurman had a child. And by
the way, this must have been you.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Because I, yes, no, so I remember this and I have.
So the question is, did I say that that child
was born out of love or did I mention that
that child was born out of rape?
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
And I did not mention that that child was born
out of rape, And that was my because I realised
I was so freaked out that I.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Had like right. So, so I don't remember you talking
about her this and I don't know anything about the story,
but Brandon is saying yeah. From the episode, the impression
was that Thurman and this woman had a secret relationship.
They were like in love. But it sounds like the
(31:45):
real story is that the she was.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
An employee, was raped. Yeah, she was. She was an
employee of the family he raped her.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah. He was twenty two and she was sixteen. Carrie
carry Butler, Yes, and he was their domestic servant, so
she was sixteen. Yes, and this was in the twenties.
It sounds like, okay, so you just so it sounds
like you knew this.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
I did, and I'm very sorry that I wasn't more explicit.
Often we are bringing up things on the fly. Yeah,
and I'm just kind of yeah, so I but I
will say what was shocking about that was that the
way that and I did say it right on the air.
Someone said I made it sound like storm and.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
It's strong strong, Oh strom Strom. I think I said
storm earlier. Yeah, well in the email it's spelled storm,
but I think.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
It's a strom Thurman. Anyways, we are of the age
that he was a major player in US politics, and
his anti black rhetoric was so intense growing up. He
was so racist and it was shocking to think of
him having any kind of contact with anyone besides white people.
(33:10):
When I learned that he had a child, I mean,
it's not surprising because power over happens all the time,
and rapist one way to have power over. But yeah,
I want to apologize that I didn't mention how awful
he was that he was also a rapist. Yeah, along
with being a horrible, horrible bigot.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Brandon goes on to say, anyways, love the podcast, Anyways,
anyone who you both taught me so much about myself
and about relationships, And because of listening to this podcast,
I am becoming a therapist as my second career.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
It's so cool. Yeah, wow, welcome to the party. Party on.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Patron Noah from this is like a speed route. It is. Well,
there's so many Rebecca patron Noah from Queens. She Queens
writes and it says hello, doctor Kirkut. Rebecca, thank you
so much for responding to my email. It was so
insightful and I found Rebecca's empathy as a Jewish woman
to be amazing. Okay, just chiming in. I don't remember specifically.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
This is the one about the boyfriend has an anti
Semitic friend. Why is my memory so good?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Going on? I'm wondering if it is of interest to
you that this sexist and any semitic friend of my
exes is an extreme liberal and a gay man and
an enrolled member of the Native American tribe. Oh, I
see so in the email.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
So can a marginalized person be awful in other ways? Yes?
Yeah yeah. And the sexism and the among gay men
is no joke. There are some gay men that really
really hate women, and hating Jews is very popular. I
would never there are tons of marginalized groups they hate Jews.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Yeah, just look at Kanye West.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yeah, do I have to.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Going on? What have your encounters been with sexism in
instead of liberals and sexism? Well, what about liberals specifically?
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Are liberal sexists?
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (35:22):
I mean some of the the women's movement comes out
of the Vietnam War movement, where women were treated like
such crap, and you know, white men felt like they
had all of the important roles and should do all
the important things and women should just run the mimeograph
machine and be there to quench men's sexual appetites. Out
(35:47):
of that, sexism comes to the women's movement where they're like,
why am I fighting so hard for something when I'm
getting treated like such shit? Yeah, So there was a
long history of sexism in liberal movements and women having
to fight extremely independently. I mean, I would say so,
(36:09):
and then another example of that. So the reason that's LGBT,
the reason that l starts it off is that the
sexism in the gay community for decades and the acknowledgment
that if it wasn't for lesbian women, gay men wouldn't
have survived the AIDS crisis, right like it is specifically, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Because I thought it was just that there was not
just but Yeah, it's funny because I find that most
people don't know or forget or weren't around when these
terms are being used. But it took me a long
time to put L first because for many years it
(36:50):
was GGLB, and it was in the TT it was
just GLB. Well for a while I was gays and lesbians.
Then it was like, well, what not bisexual. So that's
that first movement to have the letters. So it was GLB,
and then it was GLBT, and then it was LGBT.
So the the vibe that I got was because you know,
(37:13):
at the university there's a lot of conversations around this
kind of thing, and I the vibe that I got
was the movement away from having men be the norm
and women.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Being the secondary area.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Yeah, you know it's like, oh there's a doctor, Oh
there's a female doctor, you know, and so like with
he or she, I remember there's in the academia. There
was this huge movement to say she or he just
as to make academic mix it up. Yeah, and I
remember that in the nineties, and then I remember at
(37:48):
the same time it was it went LG and so
I I my interpretation was it was just another element
of that movement of just like, let's not always put
men first, But you're saying it's specifically around you.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Know, it's specifically to acknowledge that without lesbians, gay men
would have not survived the AIDS epidemic, That it was
lesbians that stood up and cared for so many men
that didn't have families.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Interesting. Yeah, I mean what you'll hear, specifically Patronoa from
Queen's about marginalized people being bigoted is that one they
have internalized the the dominance narrative, and two they're trying
to appeal to the dominant narrative by acting like the
(38:42):
dominant narrative. Right, It's like, hey, white people, I'm racist too,
Can I now be accepted? And that's absolutely potentially part
of it and obviously internalized bigotry. But also some people
are just bigots and they just happen to be people
of color, are happened to be liberals. So it's not
(39:02):
always explained through the appeal to you know, the groups
of power. Anyone can be bigoted, anyone can be us
versus them.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Lots of marginalized populations are also extremely homophobic, like this
idea that we don't see the oppression of one and
the oppression of all. Yeah, no, it takes you gotta
work to get over this stuff.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah, and I think it's changing. But there was a
simplistic notion among the masses, you know, like on TikTok
and stuff, that if you're a person of color, like
everything you think and say is okay, and it's just
like what the fuck? Right anyway, well, what the fuck?
And on that note, let's end here, and everyone out there,
(39:48):
please take care of yourself
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Because we really we love you and you're going to
rescue us when the shit hits the fans, So take
care of yourself so you can take care of us.
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