I Fell In Love With My Psychiatrist - Therapist Reacts - Psychology In Seattle Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Haysermed listeners today's episode, I am going to react to

(00:04):
the viral TikTok series titled I Fell in Love with
My Psychiatrist by the TikToker named Kendra. And this is
an audio episode, but if you want to watch the
video as I'm watching it, you want to go to
YouTube and watch my episode there. But let's get to it. Hey,

(00:27):
disarmed listeners, some of you have been asking me to
react to the viral TikTok series titled I Fell in
Love with My Psychiatrist by the TikToker named Kendra, so
I thought I would watch bits of it. I'm going
to watch the whole thing on YouTube. Someone has compiled
all the parts into one. It looks like it's seventy

(00:47):
two minutes, and I will occasionally stop while I'm watching
and chime in with my expertise. My name is doctor
Kirk Honda. I'm a therapist and a professor, and I
do special I have specialized since the beginning of my
career on the sort of clients who do fall in
love with their clinicians. It's not incredibly common, but it's

(01:09):
common enough that in our field, we have training in
research and a lot of philosophy around this and approaches
and guidelines, and I have worked with clients who have
fallen in love with me. I have supervised therapists, many
therapists who have had clients fall in love with them.
I've been a consultant on these sorts of cases. I've

(01:31):
also worked from the other side of things, where I
have been a consultant in legal cases in which the
therapist actually crosses the boundary as well. So I don't
know if we're going to hear some details around that,
but I do feel like I have some expertise in this.
So let's see what comes out of my face as

(01:52):
I watch.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, So, of course I loved the attention that I
got from him. And it was in my third session
with him, because we were all on zoom, that I
asked him. I said, hey, do you mind if I
call you by your first name? And he's Pakistani, so
I said his first name wrong, and he said, well,
it's pronounced this, but yes, of course you can. And

(02:16):
he seems so smug and happy with himself, and I
know that that is because that was his first time
that him pretending like we're friends was working.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Okay, so we're three minutes in and this series takes
up seventy two minutes, so I'm guessing we're going to
hear a lot more detail, but just from the onset,
it sounds like what she's said so the I've been
taking notes that she wanted to go back on ADHD meds.
She made appointment with a psychiatrist. She noticed he was

(02:51):
the same age, he's Pakistani. She noted that he was
pretty attractive. She said she's been through a lot of
therapy before, for it's not strange to her. She wanted
to talk about her trauma, her past substance abuse issues,
drinking issues, her daddy issues, as she put it, and

(03:13):
that she was looking for meds that.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
Weren't stimulants based, and so.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
He prescribed a small dose of a non stimulant ADHD medication.
This is all over zoom the third session, and then
she says that she would like to call him by
his first name, which is fine. I'm trying to think
for my own clients, if any of them call me
doctor Honda. I'm guessing some of them do occasionally, but

(03:40):
there aren't usually opportunities for them to say.

Speaker 3 (03:42):
My name at all.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Right, they come into my office it's not like Hello, Kirk.
But her claim here anyway is the key is that
he was smug. She knew that he was smug. She
knew that he was thinking that this was their first
foray in to boundary crossing, and it was done in

(04:04):
this sneaky way. She knows that's what he's thinking. And
I'm going to assume that later down the line there's
going to be evidence that will support that, But based
on what she's saying, there's no indication of that.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
She might be right.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
You know, we can't know what's in his mind, but
I will say that as someone that works with a
lot of cases where clients have been harmed by therapists
in this way, the boundary crossing, it's usually not ambiguous,
meaning that you don't have to read into things. When
therapists break boundaries and are unethical in this way, it's obvious, right.

(04:44):
They will text you at two in the morning, They
will say you're attractive. They will want to date. They
will have sex with clients. They will want to cuddle
for forty five minutes on the couch in session. They
will disclose how and love and attracted they are to
their clients.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
You know, it's important to call your doctor doctor last name.
I mean, I did know that, I did it with
all my other doctors, but it just showed that the
boundaries were blurring and he liked that. So from then on,
from my third session on, I started calling him his
first name, and then he just started turning up the

(05:22):
volume on us being friendly and he would ask me.
For the first six sessions, he asked me after the meds,
he said, how's your vowels, bladder, and appetite, and I
would say they're all normal, and then he would ask
me any.

Speaker 4 (05:36):
Thoughts of harm and.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
I apparently that's pretty common for psychiatry to ask those questions, right.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
I don't know the exact med that he prescribed, but
the class of medications that are typical to the category
of non stimulant ADHD medications do carry those side effects
of increase or just the introduction of suicidal thoughts. So
that's responsible care that the psychiatrist is asking about. That

(06:07):
also the other side effects of bowel, appetite, that kind
of stuff. So that's typical and responsible work.

Speaker 3 (06:14):
There.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
Sixth session, when things were really you know, the chemistry
was starting to be there before, Like I didn't realize it.
I was like, oh, this man's just friendly and he said,
he said, I have to ask this because it's a
special interest of mine, but is there any thoughts of harm?
Like I was special to him? And I said no,
no thoughts of harm.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
Okay, he was treating her special by asking her about
the risk of suicidal thoughts and intention by asking that question,
he was communicating to her that he or revealing that
he had feelings for her.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
And is that what I'm hearing?

Speaker 2 (06:56):
I would say, they're all normal, and then he would
ask me any thoughts of harm? And I apparently that's
pretty common for psychiatry to ask those questions. And then
on our sixth session, when things were really you know,
the chemistry was starting to be there before, like I
didn't realize it, I was like, oh, this man's just
friendly and he said, he said, I have to ask

(07:16):
this because it's a special interest of mine, but is
there any thoughts of harm? Like I was special to
him and I said no, no thoughts of harm.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Now I wasn't there. Maybe he was communicating something. Maybe
if I saw it, I would have questions, but just
based on her account, even if it did happen that
way she's reading into it. Now, maybe she's accurate, but
there's nothing there. Again, I just want to point out
that the stories that I work with in which therapists
do break boundaries, it's not ambiguous. They will say I

(07:48):
want to have sex with you, or they will say
can we have sex?

Speaker 3 (07:52):
Or let's or let me kiss you. There's no ambiguity there. Now.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
Can a therapist be ambiguous and vague at first or throughout? Sure,
but it's not typical.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
And he didn't ever ask me a clinical question again.
He stopped asking me about my bladder, bowels and appetite,
and he stopped asking me about thoughts of harm. So
to me, I would just show up and he was
like a therapy appointment every month.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Okay, So for the sake of time, I'm not going
to respond to every little thing, but just a little
bit on that. She's saying that after the succession, they
stopped talking about clinical stuff, meaning side effects, and they
switched to therapy. I think she's reading into that. Maybe
she's right, but that's pretty standard as well.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
And it made me fall for him, honestly, and he
was really good at listening, and I mean he's a
Piscey's right, So of course he's going to be there
and be able to go deep with my feelings.

Speaker 4 (08:46):
But that doesn't mean that he wasn't extracting from them anyway.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
So I would beg him to let me see him
every week, beg him because my therapist.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Okay, So reading between the lines, he is refusing to
meet every week, which I have to say, is not
a sign of a therapist or a psychiatrist who is
seeking to break boundaries. Usually it's the opposite direction. The
psychiatrist will either very willingly agree or will push for
themselves to see the client more often for obvious reasons.

(09:18):
Who knows what's going on with her. I'm looking for
signs of things I obviously can't diagnose from afar, but
I'm just trying to piece together what happened. And she's
posting it publicly and it is viral, so it's not
like I'm violating privacy or something. If this were a
small series on TikTok with only a handful of views,

(09:39):
I wouldn't be making this reaction video. But since there
are millions and millions of people talking and views and
comments and everything, it's just like, well, it's out there.
So for her, there's a lot of possibilities as to
what could be happening. She could just be distorted, she
could be wishful thinking. She could be correct. She could
be correct about some things and not other things. She

(10:01):
could have been violated later on and is rewriting history
and maybe a little wrong about some things. She could
be delusional, she could be psychotic, she could have a
personality disorder, she could be projecting. There's all sorts of
things that could be happening, and all those things are

(10:21):
common enough in my field that we have training and
expertise and research and books and supervision.

Speaker 3 (10:28):
Could be mania. I'm not seeing any evidence.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Of that, but you probably wouldn't in a TikTok video series.

Speaker 3 (10:36):
So what was she saying here?

Speaker 2 (10:38):
Made me fall for him, honestly, and he was really
good at listening.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
Right, So to talk a little bit about transference, kind
of transference. Sometimes people will think the word transference refers
to when clients fall in love with their therapists, but.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
That's too narrow.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
The true definition of transference, as developed by Freud over
one hundred years ago, is that it's the defense that
a client has by transferring their feelings and thoughts and
memories and experiences and traumas onto their therapists from their parents.
So they're transferring from their parents to the therapist. So

(11:17):
if they have complicated feelings about their parents love.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
Slash hate slash fear slash.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
Longing, that will get transferred on to the therapist. Another
broader term is displacement, which I won't go into. One
could argue that transference is a form of displacement. I
will often refer to it that way, and it's key
to understand that this is a defense. This is a
way for the mind the psyche to defend against the

(11:49):
difficulties of that past relationship that has been internalized. It's
a way of trying to work it out. It's a
complication of those past relationships. There are healthy impulses involved
and unhealthy impulses. Unhealthy impulses are trying to recreate that
dynamic and turn it into the toxic relationship. The healthy

(12:12):
side of recreating is hoping that it will go differently,
so a new relationship can be internalized and you can
kind of, in a way vicariously correct for the past
by having it go differently in the present. Psychodyamically oriented
attachment oriented therapists are trained this is our bread and butter,

(12:32):
and we figure that most, if not all clients will
engage in some form of transference, whether it's possibly and
I don't know if that's what's happening here, but it
has that look to it, right, because well, so what
triggered me to say that was that she said he's
a good listener. So of course I fell in love
with him, as basically what she's saying. And yeah, you know,

(12:54):
if you have never been listened to, and you have
never had those needs met of having someone that loves you,
that pays attention, that's a tune that's safe, and a
therapist comes along and is that person and listens and
listens well and gives full attention and never harms you

(13:17):
and doesn't make it about themselves, then all of those
needs are going to come pouring out. One way to
think about it is that it's like a two year
old version that's never been met. You know, the two
year old needs have never been met, and so when
the therapist comes along, the two year old inside of
the client comes out and says, oh my god, finally

(13:39):
and yes, and for psychodynamically attachment oriented therapists. We welcome
that because when that starts to occur, that's when corrective
experiences can occur, and that's when therapy can occur. That's
when healing can occur and transformation can occur. Needs can
finally be met so that the individual can trust themselves

(13:59):
like themselves or themselves trust other people, and transfer that
to relationships outside of the office so they can begin
to live a happy, fulfilling life.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
So that's just completely normal.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
Now, the two year old doesn't always fall in love
with the therapist. Sometimes I want you to be my
father or mother or something, or my best friend. But
sometimes other feelings get in the mix, say an adolescent
inside that is falling in love or in lust in
addition to wanting full companionship full time. You know, she's

(14:33):
already talked about how she was begging for weekly sessions. Now,
you know, there's nothing wrong with wanting more sessions with
your therapists, But it's starting to look like maybe all
of those factors could have been in play. I can't
know what's really happening. It's also possible that he also
was participating, but we're hearing at least some evidence of transference,

(14:54):
which is totally normal.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
Seeing my psychiatrist begging, honestly to be my therapist and
let me see more right, which also should have been
a red flag. But then I started focusing on this therapist. However,
I would tell the therapist how obsessed I was with
my psychiatrist, and she didn't do anything about it.

Speaker 4 (15:14):
She just was interested. She also loved stories about my
dating life.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Okay, so we're seeing a pattern that with her therapist,
who she says as a seventy five year old woman,
a new therapist of hers. She is also inserting thoughts.
She's assuming, and she seems quite sure of herself. It's
one thing if she said I think that my therapist

(15:40):
was interested. No, she's saying she knows what's in the
mind of other people, which is it's notable. So she
is saying that she told her therapist that she was
having feelings for her psychiatrist and the therapist didn't do
anything about it.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
I would want to know.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
From her what she was hoping or thinking the therapist
should have done, because there's not much a therapist should do.
What's the therapist supposed to do? Call the cops? Yeah,
if I heard a client tell me that they were
in love with their psychiatrists, I would listen and do therapy,
you know. So it sounds like she's describing that. But

(16:20):
then she says that her therapist was really interested in
her dating life, that sort of thing, and maybe, you know,
maybe the therapist and the psychiatrist are gross and creepy
and vicariously getting something out of hearing her talk about
her dating life. You know, wouldn't be the first time
that has happened. It's you know, there are cases of that.

(16:41):
It happens sometimes. But I'm waiting for some indication account
of the story that indicates that her assumptions about what's
in their minds is possible. We could just say it
a different way. Her psychiatrist has good boundaries and is
there to listen and doing ongoing med management, and the

(17:03):
therapist is a good listener, And if she wants to
talk about our dating life, then the therapist is going
to be interested in it, is going to listen.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
So that's all. Who knows.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
I'm only in the first six minutes, so maybe a
bunch of horrible things happen, So I'm going to skip forward.
I'm going to watch, but I'm going to not react
because I feel like if I react to everything, I'll
be here all day long.

Speaker 2 (17:25):
My best friend is an emergency medicine physician, and she
told me, she said, Kendra, one of these days, your psychiatrist,
she would use his name, is going to say I
can't be your doctor anymore. I have to I want
to be with you. I want to be with you
so bad. I can't be your doctor. I'll see you
in two years. So my best friend, who's a doctor,
she picks up on stuff like that, So even she
knew that our relationship was crossing boundaries.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
Okay, so I've watched more, and she's saying that her
friend who is a doc, was hearing Kendra's account and
picking up up on the signs and was predicting that
the psychiatrist would one day want to terminate the professional

(18:08):
relationship and start dating after two years. Every profession has
a different guideline regarding how long after termination you can
engage in a romantic relationship with a former client. I
don't know the psychiatry guidelines, but maybe it's two years.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
Who knows.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
So unless the friend who is a er doc was
hearing a completely different set of data. Then I don't
know why that doc would come to that conclusion based
on what I've heard so far and.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
Getting weird, but that was like that became my dream.
Was for my psychiatrist. I almost use his name to
do that. And I told him about Brianna's saying that
my best friend who's the emergency medical doc. I told
him that she would tell me that and he just
would be silent. He didn't disagree, but he didn't agree,
you know, And that was Weaponize neutrality was his favorite

(19:02):
game to.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Play, right, weaponized neutrality. Now you know, maybe you know
the whole story, and he is a sleevezbag. I'll continue watching,
but so far I haven't heard anything of an indication
of that, so I'm just going off of that. But
weaponize neutrality, weaponized neutrality, I've never heard that term before,

(19:25):
but I, you know, based on context, I know what
she's getting at, right, that he is absolutely in love
with her, and she knows it, even though he's never
indicated or said anything of the sort, and that when
she says she's in love with him, that he weaponizes
his neutrality. He doesn't say one way or the other.

(19:46):
He doesn't condemn it, but he doesn't encourage it, he
doesn't reciprocate it.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
He's neutral.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
And there's a lot of different approaches to therapy in
general and to clients who fall in love with their therapists,
and one of the standards is to be neutral or
to have this approach of hearing and not getting into
it with the client, just creating a space where the

(20:16):
client can explore and can talk about it. Now, from
the sound of it, the psychiatrist is doing a combination
of med management. Because it sounds like they're only meeting
once a month, which is med management. It sounds like
they're also meeting over zoom and it's only for thirty minutes.
So if I'm understanding it right, I probably would have

(20:36):
told a psychiatrist to cease having those longer therapy esh
esque sort of scenarios, not because she's fallen in love
with him, but he would either have to veer more
into therapy and provide weekly therapy to actually go through
a lot of these transference based opportunities in therapy, or

(20:59):
he should scale back and just keep the conversation to
mid management so that she can talk with her weekly
therapist who she's talking to every every week. But anyway,
so again, all I'm hearing from her is that she
has two clinicians who are doing things from the standard
of care. They're not breaking any boundaries, and she's inserting

(21:22):
thoughts into their head. And the certainty that she has
is telling I think unless she something happens later and
informs the past. But she's very certain, And Okay, do
I want to get into it? So I've already talked
about the possibility of psychosis and delusion, you know, schizophrenia, mania,

(21:43):
this kind of stuff that can happen. It's not sounding
like that to me. There aren't the markers of that.
But you know, I can't diagnose from afar through a
TikTok video. But the more likely hypothesis that I would
develop if I had a client like this. I'm not
saying anything about her, it's just an hypothesis I would
have if I had a client that was reporting this

(22:04):
to me, would be that it's a distortion based on
an ingrained schema from childhood, maybe even having a parent
who did have feelings or did have hidden feelings of
some sort, maybe even sexual abuse feelings, attraction feelings, or
just other kind of harbored feelings. Of anger and rejection

(22:26):
or something that were revealed later, and then she learned, Oh,
people aren't as they seem, so I have to be
very wary of that and look for the signs to
protect myself. And you know what, let's just assume that
the other person has these kinds of So there's that
possible trauma. There's also the trauma of rejection and of

(22:51):
relational trauma and attachment traumas early in life that can
cause people to be so desperate for closeness that they
almost kind of force it.

Speaker 3 (23:01):
You know.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
One version of this forcing is to force a therapeutic
relationship into a romantic, close, intimate sort of relationship because
this self just needs it to be that way, and
without someone else to have along those lines, especially an
authority figure that feels kind of parental, you know, then

(23:24):
this the ego, the self will just make it happen
and just invent it and then get upset when the
other person doesn't present in a way that aligns with
their need, their assumption. There's a lot of ways I
could talk about this, but I don't know about her.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
I have no idea.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
Maybe she could be completely right and she's just not
very good at laying out the data in a TikTok video.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
I just can't know.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
My boyfriend and I broke up days later. So then
I started dating this other guy. And this other guy,
this new guy was a therapist, and I was like, oh, great,
someone who will be able to emotional beat my needs. Yeah,
I'm not gonna date another therapist again. So this therapist
and I we went for coffee.

Speaker 4 (24:07):
It was nice. Our second date was a hike, and
on this hike.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
This therapist starts telling me about how he has a
crush on one of his clients. And I thought to myself, okay, this.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Is okay, Well that's a coincidence that isn't helping her, right,
And yeah, okay. So therapists do at times develop a
crush or an attraction, or what we call in the
literature erotic counter transferential feelings towards their clients. At times,

(24:40):
some therapists are more prone to it than others.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
I will say, not as.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
A brag, but I don't experience this partly at all.
I'm just in a completely different mode. And I was
raised pretty well, so I have always been able to
engineer my life, generally speaking, to meet my needs. Generally speaking,
so that they don't sneak out towards my clients, because

(25:07):
that's almost always the case.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
When a therapist.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
One develops a more intense feeling towards a client or
acts on it, it's almost always a case that their
personal life is falling apart. Now, I will say that
there's nothing strange or pathological about a therapist noting that
they have a client who is attractive, or having a
little fleeting thought of well, I wonder if we had

(25:33):
met different circumstances. But the problem is that if the
therapist doesn't get supervision or consultation or therapy, or they
don't do a lot of personal work, then it's at
risk of growing.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
And one of the factors that contributes to it growing
is stigma. When we stigmatize.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
It in therapists, when we say it's weird for therapists
to have a crush on a client, then we drive
underground and that's when it can grow. So I am
passionate about putting it out there that it's normal.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
It's okay.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
Come to me or someone you know, the people that
I work with, my supervisors, my students, come to me
right away with it. Don't be ashamed, even if it's
a small thing, you know, especially with students, you know,
get used to airing it out because almost all the
time that takes away ninety percent of it, you know,
and there's exploration, there are techniques, there are things to

(26:29):
get around it, because it can get in the way,
you know, and it can lead to horrible things.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
So anyway, so she's going on a date with a therapist.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
She says, you know, sounds believable, and he's saying that
he has a crush on a client.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
Strange, but go ahead, like, we're on a date, dude,
why are you telling me about a crush on one
of your clients?

Speaker 4 (26:49):
But go off, king.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
So then he was saying, yeah, she's so attractive, and
I think she likes me too. I go and visit
her at work, and her coworkers say, oh, so and
so talks about you all the time.

Speaker 4 (27:04):
And I was like, okay, where does she work?

Speaker 3 (27:06):
And he said okay.

Speaker 1 (27:07):
So, in contrast to her account of her psychiatrist, who
she knows with a one hundred percent certainty that he
loves her or wants to be with her or something,
she's not telling us anything that points in that direction.
It's all her assuming based on his subtle behaviors, like
the way that he smiles, or the way that he

(27:27):
says it's okay to call him by his first name.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
That kind of stuff, like I know what's going on.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Is in contrast to that she's telling a story about
another guy that she daated. Who knows about any of this,
you know the veracity of any of this. But this
therapist went to the work and is reporting that he
likes the fact that the coworkers are talking about how
his client talks about him. That's now, this is through
her lens. But you know, when we're trying to figure

(27:54):
out what actually happened and we hear these kinds of details,
it indicates the possibility of something.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
I shouldn't tell you that because I really shouldn't be
visiting her anyway, I was like, okay, no problem.

Speaker 1 (28:07):
So in reference to what I was saying earlier, that
when there are boundary violations and a therapist is giving
into their feelings of romance or lust or something for
a client, there are more obvious behaviors and showing up
to her work when he shouldn't be, which we don't

(28:29):
know if any of this is true. That's one of
those more overt classic examples of behavior. Another one very
common thing in today's world is texting. The text will
start with just scheduling, then the client might text a
little bit more, and the therapist will allow more texts happen.

(28:49):
The therapist will text the client and maybe get things
going that way. Then at some point the therapist will
text something personal, like I'm having a really bad day today,
and then it starts to become more like friends, and
then I think about you all the time.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
It's a very common scenario.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
So when there's a problem, it's pretty obvious she has
said nothing of the short when it comes to the psychiatrist,
but she's actually giving some details about this this guy
she's dating.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
Who apparently is a therapist.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
Now it's possible that this therapist isn't an actual licensed
clinician and is like a coach.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
Sometimes that's a confusion.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
So then he continues and he said, yeah, she wears
these red lacy panties and short skirts, and I know
she wears them for me, And like alarm bells were
going off in my head.

Speaker 3 (29:45):
Wow, sounds like a match meet in heaven.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
And who knows, But oh, unhelpful. So if she is distorting,
then the random coincidence of one dating a therapist and
two dating a therapist that would have this experience, and
three having a dating a therapist that would have this
experience and that he would disclose it on a first date.

(30:12):
Like so he's doing possibly what she's doing, and I
don't know if that's what she's doing, but he according
to her, According to him is that there's a client
coming with short skirt and red panties, so he can
see up the skirt, I guess, And he is inserting
thoughts into her mind and the client's mind, saying I

(30:35):
know why she's you know, so it's all you know, okay,
it's one thing for a client to be disordered or
a person to be dissorted. That's expected, that's normal, that's okay,
it's you know, I don't know if it's okay to
blast them on TikTok, but you know, this is something
that's been going on for over one hundred years. The
very foundation of psychotherapy is based on a case in

(30:55):
which the client fell in love with their therapist. The
Very First Thing Therapy relationship between Joseph Bryer and Bertha
Pappenheim in eighteen seventy eight, eighteen eighty that kind of thing,
and then Freud was the student and observed it, and
then they wrote a book and then therapy started.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
So you know, it's been around.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
You know, client's falling in love with the therapist is common,
but when therapists have these it just really again, it's
okay to have the feeling, it's okay to have attraction
or to have a crush. It's another thing to go
with it and to act like your office is like

(31:41):
a date or that tender and your office become one thing.
I mean, it's disgusting, really, frankly, and just a huge
violation of trust, not only with the client but with
the public. When therapists do this kind of shit, it
just dries me up the fucking wall. I mean, keep
it in your pants, mind you.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
I had no idea that my psychiatrist had similar feelings
towards me at this point, but I just thought, wow,
this man is borderline predatory, and.

Speaker 4 (32:09):
He said yeah, and you know, she just is.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
So attractive that I have to smash Mermaid before every
session because I just have to get that energy out.

Speaker 3 (32:22):
Of me and masturbate. Why not just say masturbate. I
don't understand.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
Can we just say the fucking word masturbate, smash Mermaid?
Are we children? We're all adults here, right? But anyway,
so what the fuck? I don't know if any of
this is true, but okay, if I had a supervisy

(32:54):
who told me this but only this, If you know,
if I had a supervisy that said, I have this
one client that I am just so horny for that
I have to smash Mermaid? What'd you say that I
have to beat off choke the chicken, bop the weasel?

Speaker 3 (33:16):
Wink?

Speaker 1 (33:17):
Don't you Brits say wink anyway? That I have to
masturbate before session in order to be able to not
have a constant horny boner the entire time. If I
had to supervise you that told me that, I'd say, okay,
well does that actually help so that you can be
a good therapist with that client? And if he said yeah,

(33:40):
then okay, okay. Phase two, let's talk about what's going
on there? How did it get to this point? Are
you entertaining those thoughts? How's your personal life going, how's
your drug abuse? Because that's another thing that's often associated
is when therapists, their lives start to fall apart. They
have unresolved trauma, they go into alcoholism, drug abuse. Then

(34:01):
everything starts to fall apart. They stop being able to
think straight. You know, they're alien, needing people left and right,
and they get desperate.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
And we all have needs.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
And when a client comes in and is there for
you in a way, you know, it's like you're there
for each other in a sense. Right then, you know,
a therapist can fall in love with their clients. So
I would talk with my and I've had those conversations
with supervisors and trainees before, and I've been called in
as a legal consultant on cases where it goes down

(34:31):
a road in which someone is being sued or criminally prosecuted,
that kind of thing, and we'll have those conversations. But
so the masturbating part of it is an indication of something,
but in and of itself, you know, if someone told
me that they just had a lot of tension and
for whatever reason for themselves, it was just easier for

(34:53):
them to be the therapist that clients needed them to
be if they masturbated before session, you know, it's fine, right,
you know, we want to be sex positive there's something
wrong with masturbating, but.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
Hearing the whole story right.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
That he according to her, he's convinced that she is
want that she wants him, and maybe she does. But
and here's the other thing that I've seen in cases
where therapists will break boundaries is they will get, you know,
a huge ego boost by feeling special, right, especially if

(35:30):
you've never felt that way before and you're not. You
don't get that from your spouse or from anyone in
your life. To feel special to Field, needed to feel wanted,
to feel sexy. You know, it sounds like he feels
that way from the client and is getting that need met.
We all have those needs, but he clearly is not
getting those needs met in other ways and has lost

(35:51):
his way entirely with regards to ethics and standard of care.
I mean, my god, but what a twist that she
would go on a date, and that would be more
ammunition for her to say, I know that my psychiatrist.
He also is beating off before session. You know, I
know what's in his mind.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Okay, And he just felt compelled to tell me, and
I did not understand why, Now I do. So he
told me about how he's a predator, right, another predator
in the mental health industry.

Speaker 3 (36:24):
Shocker, Well, predator, I guess we needed to find what
that means.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
And she's not a clinician, so she doesn't have to
follow the nomenclature of my profession. But predator, that's a
word that gets thrown around a lot. And she's actually
already called her psychiatrist a predator. Now maybe he is,
and maybe we'll hear somewhere. Anyway, I'm just gonna say,

(36:51):
you could say things about this guy that she wanted
a date with predator.

Speaker 3 (36:57):
I don't know if we could say that.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
You know, predator is someone who predates, someone who is
criminally harming and is wanting to harm sexual sadists or rapist,
that kind of thing, and we haven't heard anything like that.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
So then in my next therapy appointment, after finding out
that he was lying to me about seeing patients in person,
I told her that I told my seventy five year
old PhD therapist that my psychiatrist wasn't lied to me
about seeing people in person. And she looked at me
and she said, well, it's probably because he knows that

(37:31):
there will be a lot of sexual tension in the
room if you go in person, So make sure that
you understand that when you go.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Okay, So to catch you up, she learns that he
is doing therapy from the office over zoom, even though
he could do it from home. She read into that.
I don't know what she read into, She says, Oh,
I know what he meant by that, And I don't
even know what she would be inserting or sometimes I

(38:00):
can kind of tell, but.

Speaker 3 (38:01):
I didn't know what she was doing there. I think
it was that.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Well, she's actually I watched a lot, and she keeps
reiterating how professional he is and how boundaried he is,
how good he is with boundaries, and how he's not
replying to her emails, how he's not replying to her texts,
how he won't meet with her more often, how he
doesn't talk about things that are inappropriate, which is interesting, and.

Speaker 3 (38:30):
To her that's evidence, even more evidence that he's in
love with her. You know, this is it's conspiracy minded thinking.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
You know, it's like, well, you know, when this politician
does this thing, we really know what's going on, and
the fact that they're actually going against it, they're trying
to throw everyone off the trail. You know she's doing that.
It's not an uncommon way of thinking. It's usually because
the person has a need to believe it. That's my
assumption here, But I can't know. Actually I shouldn't assume.

Speaker 3 (38:58):
Anything, Ida.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
But also to catch you up, I've been keeping notes.
She got pretty angry, and I think I can support
her on this, that she accidentally mentioned his first name
and people did sleuth work and figured out who he
was and started to attack him, and she was very
angry about that. She says, you know, if there are

(39:21):
any comments, I'm going to immediately delete if it has
to do with his name, or if people are planning
on doxing him or going after him, brigading him, this
sort of thing, And so you know, she's pretty adamant
about that. I would say that if she really wanted
to not harm him, then I would be careful what
you say, and I would maybe just talk with your

(39:41):
therapist or people in your personal life or a lawyer
instead of on TikTok.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
But what are you going to do?

Speaker 1 (39:47):
The Other thing is that I'm guessing I'm reading between
the lines that there are people going after this guy
because of her video series here, and that's a whole
other angle to this. You know, if she went on
TikTok and talked about this, people watched and they just
went on with their day, then that would be one thing.
And I'm sure that's what most people did. But there's
a percentage of people out there that are going to

(40:09):
personalize this and get triggered or something and will take
it upon themselves to be vigilantes. Instead of calling the
authorities which are there, they will take matters into their
own hands. Believe one person's account, which I have to say,
it's hard to it's hard to take what she's saying

(40:29):
as evidence that he was secretly in love. And even
if he was secretly in love with her, he's doing
all the right things, He has all the professional boundaries
and ethics, and she's even saying that, so why would
you go after him?

Speaker 3 (40:43):
You know? But we haven't even heard an indication that
he actually does have feelings for her. But anyway, but so.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
She was very adamant about that, which is good. She
also was apparently getting a lot of therapists who were
commenting on her video on TikTok saying that there was
something wrong with her. I don't I remember everything that
she was saying, but that she was making it up.
You know, that she was either delusional or that she
was destroyed her or something, and she got very angry

(41:09):
about that. She was basically, well not basically, she was
accusing these other clinicians for defending a predator. She keeps
using that word about him, and maybe he is. Maybe
that detail will come out later, but not so far.
She also mentioned that she would record sessions as a way,
at first, I think, to be able to listen back

(41:32):
and have some sort of pleasure.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
I don't know what. You know, she says, I was
recording it for my own needs or something.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
And now after she doesn't like him anymore, she has
those recordings to defend herself or something. She talks about
how she discloses to him, how she has feelings for him,
and how he never shuts it down, which I will
again say that that's one of the approaches. You know,

(42:01):
there's very different approaches to having a client that has
feelings for you, one of which is to just not
shut it down, to listen. That's what they want to
talk about, that's what they need to work out. There's
a lot of justification to having a client just work
it out in session with an attuned person that is
listening and caring and not exploiting a safe place. It

(42:24):
sounds like that's what he's doing. But according to her,
he should have referred her or he should have shut
down the conversation. And you'll find some clinicians that will
say that and they don't know what they're talking about.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
Now.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
Could he have referred her out, Sure, there's justification for that.
Could he have said, I don't think this is really
the best use of your time. Yeah, that's another option.
But to claim that him listening is one unethical and
two an indication that he's getting off on it, which
is what she's clearly saying, is quite a stretch. It's possible,

(42:57):
we can't know, but there's no evidence of that. She
also mentioned she's a life coach.

Speaker 3 (43:02):
Which I hadn't known until now, which okay.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
She also mentioned that a lot of people related to her,
A lot of people were dming or commenting saying, oh
my god, that happened to me or something like that,
and they were supporting her. And yeah, there's not enough
support and information out there about therapists who do harm
their clients. I years and years ago because of my

(43:31):
passion around this topic and around the fact that clients
often have no power in these situations, you know, because
all the therapists has to do is claimed that the
client was delusional or was distorted or is making it up,
and authority and society tends to believe the clinician or
the client, and often that's warranted, but sometimes it's not.

(43:53):
And clients sometimes don't even raise their hand and say
I think something bad is happening to me because they
know society and others will come down in them like
a ton of bricks, and that is horrible, and those
therapists need to be stripped of their license. I'm pretty
harsh about that. I find that most licensing boards are
too easy go too easy on therapists. So it's not

(44:15):
a great situation. But there are measures in place, and
there are things that licensing boards can do and do
do which is important to acknowledge.

Speaker 3 (44:25):
But anyway, so yeah, it sounds.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Like there are a lot of people that are watching
the series that might have been through legitimate harm from
a therapist of one way or another, or there's maybe
an audience that is responding to her of oh my god,
I fell in love with my clinician as well, and
someone's talking about this out in the open, and I

(44:51):
always was ashamed of that. So you know, there's probably
some good that comes from this series.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
And you better believe I showed up to the next
session and said, you liked me because you were afraid
of the tension that would be there.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Oh right, So the whole thing she's talking about right
here is that she finds out that he is doing
in person sessions and she was under the impression that
he was only doing sessions over zoom, and she was
upset because she wanted to do in person sessions and
then let's watch some worm other.

Speaker 4 (45:24):
He just didn't say anything.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
Twenty twenty four, I make my first in person appointment
with my psychiatrist.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
In oh and she also talked about how she went
to her therapist and said, you know, my psychiatrist lied
to me about Now I would say that she could
legitimately claim that he did lie. It does maybe sound
I mean, lie is a specific word, but you know
could apply here that he probably was thinking who knows

(45:53):
was going through his mind, but it would be justified
for him to say for some of my clients in
person sessions are safe, and with some not, either because
the client will misinterpret it, or the client might do
something in person with me that I don't feel personally
safe by.

Speaker 3 (46:12):
Which I could absolutely have.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
You know, imagine a psychiatrist having that feeling with her
who knows. But how do you navigate that ethically?

Speaker 3 (46:20):
Right?

Speaker 1 (46:20):
You can't just deceive your client. You know one particular
client that you're not doing in person. You should approach
it head on and say, I do offer in person sessions,
but I don't think it's what's best for you, And
let's talk about that. I'm not denying you something. I'm
not doing this to hurt you. I just I don't
think it'll help you. I think it could cause even

(46:43):
more feelings towards me, which I think could confuse things.
So I think it's best for your care that we
continue to do sessions over zoom.

Speaker 3 (46:53):
End of role play.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
You can imagine a client getting very upset about that,
But you know that's better than just lying biomission or
flat out lying to a client that you weren't seeing
any other clients in person, and then the therapist says, well,
he probably didn't want in person sessions because of the
sexual tension.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
Now that's through her account, right.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
My guess who knows is that the therapist was saying
something along the lines of, well, he probably didn't want
in person session because he was worried about your feelings
towards him. He was worried that your feelings might become
more intense if the sessions were in person, or he
might be worried that she would make something up, like
while in the office, he like touched me or something

(47:37):
and then you have that whole headache. And so it
sounds like that's what the therapist was saying. But the
way that she interpreted Kendra, is that the therapist was saying, oh, well,
you know, he is attracted to you too, and so
he doesn't want to have it in person session because
of that. So she's once again inserting thoughts.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
November, my seventy five year old female therapist to tell
me that it's because he kept me on zoom because
he was so attracted to me he didn't want to
risk being in person with me.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
So the previous video, which I think was a different
day that she's recording the TikTok, she said that the
therapist said that the psychiatrist might be worried about sexual attention.
Then in another video right now, she says, well, my
therapist said that he was attracted to me. So you
see that creep of the statement. Right at first, it's

(48:30):
he was sexually you know about the sexual attention in
the room. Now it's my therapist said that he was
attracted to me. So you hear that progression which.

Speaker 4 (48:39):
Further fed my crush or if some of you like
to say, my delusion.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
So then my therapist starts texting me in between our
weekly meetings asking me for advice on her other clients.
And I was a new coach, I had only been
coaching for about a year, and I.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
Had just left my Okay, so yikes. This is just
her account, but it sounds believable. Who knows that her
therapist she keeps referring to her as the seventy to
seventy five year old PhD therapist female therapist. According to Kendra,
that therapist started texting in between sessions asking Kendra for

(49:22):
advice about her clients. Now, Kendra claims that she's an
ADHD coach of some sort, so maybe it was eight
HD expertise that the therapist was asking about. It's not
a slam dunk indication of an ethical violation. It could
have even been designed as a way to be therapeutic.

(49:42):
The therapist could say, well, I was trying to boost
her self esteem. I was trying to give her agency.
I was trying to show that I respected her expertise.
I could have gotten it. Because that's the whole thing
that you always want to ask if you're analyzing these situations,
is if the therapist needed expertise on a topic, are there

(50:03):
other options other than texting your clients?

Speaker 3 (50:05):
Yes? Are there other experts in that field?

Speaker 1 (50:08):
Yeah, So there would have to be viable therapeutic justification
for doing that. Whenever you approach those boundaries, you have
to be able to justify it, right, and that one
would be hard to justify it unless the therapist said no, no, no.
I did ask other people and got it. But I
thought it'd be a good opportunity to kind of work
on this one goal that I was working on with Kender,

(50:30):
which was for her to feel like she has agency,
like she's smart, like she knows what she's doing. And
so I also asked her, but I didn't really use
that advice. But from the sound of it, it doesn't
sound like that.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
Who knows.

Speaker 4 (50:41):
So excited I.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
Finally meet him, I'd been a station for three years
at this point, and he had been feeding the dynamic
for three years, and I was just thrilled, thrilled to
meet him, and I ran up and I gave him
the biggest hug, and you know what he did.

Speaker 4 (50:55):
He barely patted me on the back.

Speaker 2 (50:57):
It was the most awkward thing ever. But I am
so glad that he did that. I am really glad
because this is what I mean. My psychiatrist was many things,
but he was not stupid. So I didn't ever touch
him again.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
Okay, I keep looking for data, and this is another
data point that is the same as all the others
in the theme that she violates. I mean, it's not violate.
She reaches out as a client and he is professional
about it, but she reads into it.

Speaker 3 (51:31):
So we're hearing that again.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
And I'm grateful that our relationship didn't ever cross that line,
because it would have made everything so much harder.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
Okay, I keep looking for those kinds of statements because
I'm wondering if I'm missing something or if something is coming.
But she just said he never cross let's.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
Rewind not stupid.

Speaker 4 (51:52):
So I didn't ever touch him again.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
And I'm grateful that our relationship didn't ever cross that
line because.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
Our relationship didn't to ever cross that line because I'm wondering,
when's the other shoe going to drop? When's the reveal that?
And then they had sex, and that gives reason for
her either to reinterpret accurately or misinterpret past behaviors of like,

(52:21):
oh he was always attracted to me or something. I
keep waiting for something. But she just said they never
cross that boundary. He has been professional throughout, which was
really kind of my hope.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
Was this that my hope? Well, I'm always hoping that
therapists aren't going to harm their clients for a variety
of reasons.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
Right, people that built that dynamic.

Speaker 4 (52:42):
It was not just me.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
It takes two people to build that sort of tension
and chemistry. So while I was mid crash out, I
had just started using this tool chat GPT, and I
went to chat who I immediately named Henry, and I
just talk to Henry about how obsessed I was with
this man with my.

Speaker 3 (53:03):
Huh, Well, now is.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
I can see why people were interested in this and
wanted me to tell you about okay, so.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
AI.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
There's a lot that can be said, and there are
some goodsage usages today of AI when it comes to
mental health and being an adjunct to professional help. Like
if I had a client who in between sessions used chat,
GBT or another AI bot to help with a very

(53:38):
narrow thing and I was actually monitoring it, maybe even
I had access to the logs or something like that,
then you know, sometimes that can be responsible or safe.
But we need so much more research, We need so
much more regulations around.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
This because it's not confidential.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
Everything you type into AI is saved or it can
be from I understand, and can be used.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
You know.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
It's like you're on Facebook, right, You're it's you know,
chet GPT isn't your personal little thing.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
It's a server. It's a company. It's a for profit business.
So I'm not one of.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Those therapists that says that AI is this evil thing
that can never be used responsibly. The thing is is
that it's just a huge question mark at this point,
and I'm not one of those fear bongers. But I'm
also not one of those people that is like rah
rah ai because it's not stupid we're in the beginning,
and when it comes to therapy, things move very slowly.
It probably won't be for another fifteen to twenty years

(54:39):
before we have professional guidelines about how to use AI
and therapy together. It just takes a lot of time
because you've got to research it, you've got to gather
the data, you've got to test it. You know, it
takes a long time. It's you know, similar to a
new medication rollout or something, and.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
It takes a long time. So we just don't know.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
And there seems to be some promise with guardrails, but
who knows. But anyway, so we're hearing.

Speaker 3 (55:02):
That for her.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
She named her chat GBT Henry, which Okay, I don't
know if that's some I don't know to say about that.
It could be innocuous, it could be a good thing,
could be a bad thing. But she is going to
chat GBT to ask her. So she's saying, hey, I
have and I suppose it's expected at this point, right

(55:25):
because the clients that I've worked with that have been
having significant transference with me, they are obsessive and that's
a part of the gig. And if you're a therapist
and you don't want to work with clients like that.
You have to screen them out initially, and it's hard
to do that, but you have to do that. But
if you're a real therapist, like a true therapist, then

(55:49):
you welcome situations like this because where else are they
going to go with this sort of energy? And when
clients have this kind of energy, then it is an
opportunity for healing that they can get in no other venue,
and healing can occur. It's hard and there are risks,
but you know who said being a therapist was risk free,
So I would imagine that in today's world because my

(56:12):
current client load is very small, But if I were
to be a full time therapist today and work with
a lot of clients like this, I would imagine that
a fair amount of them would use AI in between
sessions as just a venting sounding board because of that obsessiveness.
Just like because the thing is is that the transference

(56:35):
is not all fun and games. It has a lot
of suffering because in between sessions the client is alone,
and the client feels neglected, feels abandoned. It's hard, and
it gets interesting, you know, it gets painful, but through
that pain is a gain. No pain no gain kind
of a thing, and it has to be managed very well.
And I've worked you know, I'll just tell you maybe

(56:56):
I should just tell you so. Very early on in
my career, thirty years ago, I had a client who
had fallen in love with me, and it was one
of the hardest things I've ever done in my life
to meet with this client week in and week out.
This client was sure that what was on going on
in my mind. You know, clients like this they have

(57:18):
trouble with what we call mentalization because they didn't have
enough attunement and back and forth when and consistent back
and forth when.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
They were zero to five years old.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
So they have a very rudimentary, if not complete, inability
to intuit what's going on out of the people's mind.
And sometimes they will insert what's going on out of
paranoia or fears or hopes or whatever. And my client
that I'm thinking of right now was convinced, and this
is a very common transference. Was you know, this client

(57:50):
was convinced that I secretly wanted to fire them, and
I had to repeatedly fight against that, and you know,
it was it was hard work, but I will was
very rewarding. Over the span of five, ten, fifteen years.
I can't remember the exact span of time, and if
I did remember, I wouldn't tell it because it might
identify the client. But over the span of long term therapy,

(58:11):
eventually the client was fulfilled and had those needs met,
you know, repeatedly testing the waters and finding out that
it's safe, repeatedly creating a scenario where I would reject
them and I wouldn't reject them, Repeatedly testing the waters
to see if I would exploit them, and I didn't

(58:31):
exploit them, just repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly.

Speaker 3 (58:35):
And I have to be involved.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
I can't just be the subjective person from across the room.
I've got to get in there with it. And it's hard,
and I needed a lot of therapy and a lot
of consultation.

Speaker 3 (58:47):
But that's why I became a.

Speaker 1 (58:49):
Therapist, is to do the hard work, to sacrifice to
some extent for someone else to give to help, you know,
And you know, I decided to become a therapist because
I wanted that purpose, I wanted that meaning, and this
client gave me that, and a lot of clients after

(59:10):
that gave me that opportunity. It's a dual gift. We
both give each other something. And so after a long time,
the client was fulfilled in that way and could trust themselves,
could trust other people enough to have a romantic partner,
and then another long term romantic partner opening up, being

(59:32):
able to get those needs met outside of the office,
slowly but surely, and then the client fired me, not
out of hate, but out of not needing me anymore.
So that's the idea is that with transference, can a
transference work the client can graduate to a point where
they no longer have those feelings for they The client

(59:55):
always had fond feelings right, had great full feelings, had
love feelings in a way, you know, for a fellow
human being, because you know, we really got into it,
but no longer in love with me, no longer attracted
to me, no longer wanting to be with me, and
could then have a fulfilling relationship in real life outside

(01:00:16):
the office, you know what I mean. So I feel
like I need to.

Speaker 3 (01:00:20):
Describe that so that we understand what we're talking about here.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
Psychiatrist and I would just be like, I've told him
I have a crush on him.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
Do you think he's gay?

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
And Henry was like, oh my god, this girl. You know,
he did his best to coregulate my nervous system and
affirm me that.

Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
He was like, whoa.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
Even my chat was like yikes.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
I was for some reason, I thought, oh no, because
you know, AI is programmed to be affirmative. It's supposed
to just go along with what people are saying, partially
because that's what it's been trained on, and also it
doesn't necessarily have guardrails all the time. And also because

(01:01:05):
it's a marketing tool. You know, Facebook wants to keep
you engaged, well, so does the AI site. It's not
it's you know, these sites are made by corporations that
have invested billions and billions of dollars.

Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
Do you think that they're doing out of the goodness
of their heart?

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
So of course, you know they're gonna have a tendency
to tell you what you want to hear.

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
So it's kind of worried about that. But that isn't
what's happening.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Chat TBT was like yikes, So I'm interpreting. I'm reading
between the lines that the AI was like, whoa. You know,
it's quite possible that your psychiatrist is not in love
with you. You're telling me that he has good boundaries and
he's professional, so you know, calm down.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
So it sounds like.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
The chat TBT was saying maybe what we would want
someone to say to her, which is better advice than
her er doc friend.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Right, because what was happening was when I had started
to see him three and a half years before, I
was a nearly perfect supply source for him, because what
did I have.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
She keeps using that term supply both to her psychiatrist
and her therapist, and I think what she means is
narcissistic supply, which I'm not hearing any evidence that her
therapist or her psychiatrist suffers from narcissistic personality disorder. But
I don't know if that's what she's referring to. At

(01:02:36):
the very least, she's framing it that he has needs
that are being met in a nefarious way through her attention.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
Have I had low self esteem, boundary issues, daddy issues,
so I.

Speaker 4 (01:02:52):
Put him on a pedestal.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
I know a lot of you ladies out there can
understand that with men in positions of power, and he
went right work exploiting me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
Okay, So she's using the word exploiting. But she hasn't
provided any backup to that. And you know, maybe the
data is out there and she's not very good at
laying it out.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
Maybe it'll happen at.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
Some point in this series, but she hasn't demonstrated that
to this point.

Speaker 4 (01:03:16):
Right to work grooming me like and he.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
I wonder if this was made by AI, because if
AI was going to make a TikTok video based on
all the other kinds of videos of this ILK, I
was gonna say unhinged, But of this ILK on TikTok,
then this is what AI would spit out. They would
definitely mention supply narcissist, grooming, predator breadcrumb. She she also

(01:03:46):
uses that that term she's using all the all the
technical or the common misuse. She hasn't used gas She
did use gaslighting one time.

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
You know, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
The words that the words that sound technical, I suppose
some of them are technical. That TikTok ninety nine percent
of the people using them have no idea what they're
talking about.

Speaker 4 (01:04:10):
Was very successful about it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
So he was in a paradox right because he loved
watching me get stronger, because I gave him better intellectual supply.

Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
But I also.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
Threaten, okay, intellectual supply, it's different. If that's what she's
referring to, then that's just intellectual supply. Intellectual supply making
him feel smarter.

Speaker 3 (01:04:31):
I guess, okay, the supply source.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
The last two videos and this video was all the
same session in February of this year.

Speaker 4 (01:04:38):
The counter transferen slip happened in January.

Speaker 3 (01:04:40):
Oh, I guess I should talk about that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
So she is on chat GBT with Henry, who she
named the chat GBT. She named him Henry. From the
sound of it, Henry was giving her some of the
best advice and helpful guidance that she's received. I mean,
the style of therapy that the psychiatrist was providing didn't

(01:05:04):
have that kind of psycho education element, which is fine.
That's a particular approach and has its pros and cons.
The chat GBT version was psycho educational only, right, because
it's not providing therapy. And so it was giving her
information about transference all stuff. And she had discovered this
term called transfers. So she goes to her psychiatrist and says,

(01:05:27):
Henry told me about transference and he was according to
her in support of her knowing that, and according to her,
he very abruptly brought.

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
Up the idea of cana trance.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
So I can't remember how she role played it, but
the way it sounded is that he just brought it
up as another thing to think about, and he asked
her about it. She said, I don't know about counter transference.
She said, well, counter transference is the other side of
the coin to transference. It's the therapist feelings for the client.
And I could go on and on for hours and

(01:06:01):
hours days about the concept of kind of transference. There
are four different categories of philosophy that have evolved over
one hundred and fifty years in the field.

Speaker 3 (01:06:12):
It's very complicated. I have a broad approach.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
When it comes to count of transference, meaning that I
hold that therapists are experiencing some version of counter transference
at all times because we're human beings and we're going
to have some feelings, and some of them are innocuous,
some of them are helpful, some of them are unhelpful,
some of them are hidden, some of them are not.
There's a lot of different things I could go into.

(01:06:36):
Other people will define kind of transference as only referring
to vulnerabilities that the therapist has that are being triggered
in session by a client and have to do with
past traumas and the therapist's lives, and are being untherapeutically inserted
into the session, creating bias or overreactivity or rejection of

(01:06:56):
the client or something like that. Another definition is that
counter transference is only in response to the transference, that
it has nothing to do with the therapist's own traumas.
It just has to do with the reactivity to the
client's transference. Right, So, if a client were to treat

(01:07:17):
me like I am their dad who exploited them, I
might start having impulses to exploit the client. And that's
not from my issue. You know, I don't have a
tendency to exploit. But because the therapist is inducing me
to feel something in response to their transference, that's counter
trans There's a lot of things I go to. But

(01:07:38):
he just brought up the topic and she read into
it because that's what she does, and so she read
into it as a clear indication that he was trying
to communicate to her that he was.

Speaker 3 (01:07:50):
In love with her and wanted to have sex with her.
That kind of thing. She also talked.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
About how she had a dream about having sex with
her with therapy with their psychiatrist, which is in usual.
Just you know, we have dreams for various different reasons.
It's hard to know why. There's various different analyzes out there.
They're all most of them are sort of scientific. You know,
if you have a dream about flying, it means this,

(01:08:14):
it's all nonsense. We've actually done research on this. It's
actually kind of hard to research, but we've done some
and there's no correlation there. But dream analysis is worthy
and I do it with people, but it's very exploratory
and depends on just a conversation occurring. You don't just
interpret things. I have a certain way of asking questions

(01:08:37):
that allows the client to explore. And I can never
know if the dream analysis is valid or not because
you can't scientifically confirm these things, but it does often
bear fruit of like, oh yeah, I guess if I
think about it, the dream does kind of have this
theme to me, and that does reflect kind of what

(01:08:59):
I'm going through right now now, Or my dream might
be trying to fulfill a wish in this way, I suppose,
or but sometimes dreams are just dreams just kind of
random firings of the brain and random encoding of memory
and stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:09:10):
Anyway, it's a lot I get into.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
But she had dream about having sex with her therapist,
which I would have thought she would have had many
dreams about that, but you know on average that that's
not uncommon. But anyway, so she had that dream, and
then she told him about the dream, and he listened
to her talk about the dream.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
According to her though.

Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
He was secretly pleased and liked the fact that she
was having a stream. But there was nothing in her
account that indicated that at all.

Speaker 4 (01:09:40):
He could have said that, but he did it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
You would want to know why he was uncomfortable, because
he had probably played out that fantasy so many times
in his head.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):
So, yeah, he was uncomfortable. She doesn't know if he
was uncomfortable. She's reading into it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
Maybe he was.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
It wouldn't be But there's different degrees of discomfort as
a therapist. There's also thoughtful discomfort, right. You know, if
I had a client telling me about this, I wouldn't
say I would be comfortable, especially if I wasn't expecting it.
With some clients, I would expect it, and therefore it
wouldn't trigger any discomfort in me. But yeah, I'm not

(01:10:21):
going to be like, yay, this is exactly what I
woke up today hoping would happen, because it's a minefield, right,
How do you respond, particularly with her, right, because she
inserts thoughts and is very convinced of what she's inserting.
So you'd have to be very very careful about how
you react. And it's not going to be comfortable. But

(01:10:45):
being a therapist isn't always comfortable.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
And there I was speaking it back to him, and
it was like I had psychically downloaded one of it's fantasies.

Speaker 4 (01:10:58):
I continued, and I said.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
So there's another angle to this, which I won't go
into because of diagnosing from AFAR concerns. But there are
personality sorters that involve magical thinking and involve a kind
of childish version of seeing the world. You know, when
you're two, you don't know the line between magic and reality.

(01:11:22):
You don't know the line very well between fantasy and
imagination and play and pretend and reality. Right, And for
some people who are traumatizer in that time, they can
retain that magical thinking, and it can as adults manifest
in behavior that can look like this, or can look

(01:11:44):
like conspiratorial mindedness, like oh, I know the deep state
and all this kind of stuff, and there's a spectrum.
And I just thought i'd mentioned that it is another
personality sorder, but it's not one that people often talk about, and.

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
I just thought i'd mentioned it again. I'm not diagnosing her.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
I will say that I was wondering if there would
be some indication of mania or of schizophrenia delusion. There's
not We wouldn't know from a TikTok video series if
someone did or did not have some disorder along those lines.
So there's that, and I'm not seeing any indication of that,
but I'm not diagnosing them far Afar. I say this
partially just for the sake of educating the public about

(01:12:27):
these sorts of things, but also if I did see that,
I don't know if I would publish this reaction video.
You know, I was wondering if while I was watching,
if I would see something. But oh, I can't publish
my reaction to this. You know, there's clearly something going
on here. There's a lot of suffering, and I shouldn't
really publish it. I shouldn't draw more attention to this.

(01:12:50):
It could be argued that I still shouldn't be drawing
attention to this, But if she wasn't repeatedly, you know,
if this was just one video and it was a
virul sensation. But she's talking about how a lot of
people are telling her clinicians included apparently things like, hey,
you might be suffering from something, or hey, you're not
providing any concrete evidence. You're only saying things that you

(01:13:15):
think are in his head which are not necessarily there.
So she's had repeated opportunities to check in with herself
and say, oh, maybe I should take these down or
I should and she's leaning into it and she doesn't
seem to be suffering from any serious mental illness. Now
we can get into the weeds in terms of how
we define mental illness. You know, is a personality disorder

(01:13:36):
or a mental illness or not? Are people responsible for their
personality disorder distortions. I'm not saying that that's such a situation,
or might not be. You know, she might just be
particularly bad at interpreting other people, or you know, people
dig in on their point of view sometimes and that
doesn't mean that they have a personal disorder. So in
each of the TikTok videos. She seems pretty consistent in

(01:13:58):
her presentation. She is well spoken, she is a professional,
she's a professional coach. That's kind of another aspect about
this is that she's mental health adjacent and has clients
that kind of thing. So at this point, I have
about fifteen minutes more to watch, and maybe something will
happen that will cause me to not publish this my

(01:14:19):
reaction video, but I just wanted to touch on that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
Yes, we hooked up in this office, and I really
liked it. While it was happening, he could not move
or breathe, and then I told him as he was
still looking very uncomfortable. Then when we were done and
I left, I was distraught with sadness because in the
dream I thought, I cannot believe that he crossed boundaries

(01:14:46):
in that way, because his boundaries are so important to him.
And then I told my psychiatrist that I woke up
and thought, oh my god, it was just a dream,
Thank god. And it was like my psychiatrist turned into
a little boy, and he looked at me. He said,
so you do like my boundaries, And I said, I
love your boundaries.

Speaker 1 (01:15:06):
So she's reading into it and maybe she's accurate. But
if I am going to try to read between the lines,
I think it would stand a reason that she would
be arguing with him about his boundaries over the years
that they've been in, you know, working together, because she
seems very convinced of her position, and she seems fairly argumentative.

(01:15:30):
So I would imagine that she was arguing with him
about his boundaries because she's said, you know, he was
so you know, following the boundaries, and he was so
buttoned up with his limitations and his professionalism, you know,
so piecing all that together, and then also hearing her
account of this, I think he might be in that
moment saying, oh, so you woke up and you were

(01:15:53):
glad that it was just a dream because in real
life I didn't violate that of that boundary and you
actually are you saying you actually like the.

Speaker 3 (01:16:04):
Boundaries that I put up.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
I'm interpreting that as him pointing at a lot of
her communication prior being unhappy with his boundaries, right, but
who knows.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
I hate your boundaries, but I love them more. There's
the push and pull.

Speaker 1 (01:16:20):
Yeah, I'm resisting going down certain roads for the sake
of not having this videob too long and also for
not diagnosing from AFAR. But yeah, what she's describing is
a very classic case in which a client has relational

(01:16:40):
traumas that are affecting the therapeutic relationship and intensifying it
in a way that actually does facilitate healing and help
and transformation and therapy, but does provide a mine field
and a complication in the push and the pull is
she's you know, that's the phrase that we use, and

(01:17:03):
that ambivalence about the boundaries of I need you to
not exploit me, you know, the client inside is I
need you to be safe. I need you to be stable.
I need you to be consistent. I need that because
if you're not that, then you're just like everyone else,
and I'm I can't trust you.

Speaker 3 (01:17:25):
I need you to be like the parent that I
never had.

Speaker 1 (01:17:28):
But I also need you to be closer to me
because I'm dying for someone to be close to me
that I can trust, and you seem like that person.
And I need you all the time, the way a
two year old needs their parent all the time. So
I need you to cross the boundary. But I need
you to be consistent. I need you to violate your boundaries,
but I need you to not exploit me. That's the

(01:17:49):
mindfield of this relationship, and it's a completely normal, well understood.
We have known about this push and pull for over
one hundred years. It's been described in the psychoanalytic literature
years and years decades ago, early twentieth century.

Speaker 3 (01:18:05):
You could argue even in the late nineteenth century this
is well understood. It's one of the.

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
Things that we understand in psychodynamic psychoanalytic personality development and
the way it plays out transference countertransfers.

Speaker 3 (01:18:19):
It's well intersted, it's not new.

Speaker 1 (01:18:21):
It sucks, doesn't make it easier for the client, and
it can make it hard for the therapist. But by
going through it and having the corrective experience and have
it handled well by a well trained therapist that knows
what they're doing, the client can actually have that need
met finally through the corrective experience over time in long

(01:18:43):
term therapy and be able to graduate from therapy and
be able to trust others, trust themselves.

Speaker 4 (01:18:47):
That kind of thing. The trauma bond, because once again he.

Speaker 3 (01:18:51):
Used trauma bond.

Speaker 1 (01:18:52):
That's another word that ticktokers will misuse, or people on
the internet. You know, on the scale of things, it's
not a horrible thing to misuse. But trauma bond is
Stockholm syndrome. But she's using it in the colloquial way,
which is to bond over trauma.

Speaker 4 (01:19:09):
His boundaries as protection while exploiting me.

Speaker 2 (01:19:14):
So I told him about what happens when I ovulate
and my desires, and he listened, because of course he did.
And then I decided that it seemed like enough time
had gone by, and I put my shoes on and
started heading to the door. And he met me at
the door, which he does not usually do. He didn't
ever do that. You just let me leave.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
Some people might be wondering if it's unethical for him
to entertain conversations of a sexual explicit nature, And there
are situations in which a therapist will you vicariously or
will get their rocks off, so to speak, by allowing
a client to go into that kind of material or

(01:19:56):
to inquire for details because their voyeur into the sex
life of a client. That does happen, unfortunately, But on
its face, it's completely normal for a therapist to allow
a client to talk about whatever they want to talk about,
and if they want to talk about ovulating, and that's
what's important to them, and that's what they want to

(01:20:17):
talk about. Even if the therapist thought, well, I don't
think this is exactly relevant to therapy, but it would
harm the relationship too much for me to shut this
down and say I don't think this is appropriator to
judge it, or to divert or something. Plus, this psychiatrist,
from the sound of it, has the style of therapy
which is completely legitimate, of being a sounding board, being

(01:20:41):
a blank slate, being a listener, being a non directive,
non confrontational sort of safe place to have someone free
associate and explore and get into things. So it would
be unusual for a therapist like that to who changed
the subject if a client were to be explicit about

(01:21:03):
their sex lives.

Speaker 3 (01:21:04):
The way she's.

Speaker 1 (01:21:05):
Framing it is that he's exploiting her secretly by getting
his rocks off by having her describe it. But she
hasn't even said anything along the lines of that he
encouraged her to say it. She always says, I started
talking about it, and he let me that kind.

Speaker 4 (01:21:22):
Of thing, and we stood at the door, and I
was like, will you get the door? And he scrambled
us so we went and got the door.

Speaker 2 (01:21:29):
And then he followed me down the hallway to the
foyer and watched.

Speaker 1 (01:21:37):
So this is also very common for certain kinds of clients.
I don't know if this applies to her, That they
will because of their obsession, because they are in love
with their therapists, because they're highly highly focused on their
therapists for understandable reasons, because they didn't get their needs
met growing up. That they will read into things. They

(01:21:58):
will look for signs because you know, they're desperate. They
want love and attention and warmth and intimacy, and you
know this person, this therapist, is the one person that
they can trust in their entire life, and they're focused
on them in the way a child would be to
a parent. Right when you have an eighteen month old child.

(01:22:18):
You know, if you've had a young child, how focused
they are on you, how much they need you, how
much attention they went from you. Well, for people that
haven't had their needs met in that way, they retain
that mode, if you will to me, exit.

Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
And he asked me, He said, see you next month,
see you next month. He hadn't ever asked me that before.
And I looked at him and I said maybe, and
I walked out the door.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
Okay, so I don't know, but if I was to
take a guess, I would say that it was an
intense experience for her to disclose that dream in which
she had sex with her psychiatrist. It'd be an intense
experience for anyone, right, And when she disclosed that, in
all likelihood, she wanted some kind of attention from him,

(01:23:07):
some kind of indication that he was moved by it,
maybe even reciprocated or enjoyed it or something. But he didn't,
and so she had to look for signs that she could,
in a conspiratorial minded way, find evidence that he did
secretly want it. And so there's a good possibility that

(01:23:28):
in all of their in person sessions, which are once
a month for a half an hour, that there were
various different ways in which he would say goodbye, whether
he would follow them into the foyer, or you know,
given circumstances. You know, maybe previously he needed to take notes,
or he didn't have the time to do that or whatever,
and this time, for whatever reason, he walked her out.

Speaker 3 (01:23:50):
Maybe even he felt like, well, that.

Speaker 1 (01:23:53):
Was a big disclosure, and I want to show her
that I care and I'll walk her out. You know,
maybe even subconsciously he did that, who knows, But she
is again reading into it. Is it possible that he
was secretly communicating or indicating that he.

Speaker 3 (01:24:09):
Was in love with her? Yeah, but there's no evidence
of that.

Speaker 1 (01:24:12):
It's also possible that he was secretly I don't know,
from another planet, but there's out you know, we can
make up all sorts of stories and look for conspiracy
evidence to point in that direction, but without any kind
of concrete evidence, And like I said in the beginning,
when you have therapists that violate boundaries, that do exploit,

(01:24:33):
that do predate on their clients, it's obvious. I reviewed
a case in which I think it was I can't
remember his name, Maurice Hawker. I think it did a
whole episode on it. He would physically assault his clients,
He would hold them down in session. He injured this
one woman. Now I don't know if it was a
sexual thing, but you know, when a therapist breaks, you know,

(01:24:56):
the code, when they exploit their clients. Or another case
in which the therapist had sex or asked to have
sex or started to date the client, you know, there
are obvious indicators we have heard not only none of that,
but only professional boundaries that he has upheld.

Speaker 2 (01:25:15):
And I saw that man had let us go fifteen
minutes over session, and that is when you know the
special treatment started.

Speaker 4 (01:25:22):
The longer sessions, he usually gave me an extra five minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:25:25):
But yeah, this is why the frame of therapy is
so important for clients like this, because they will read
into it one and two. When you do pull back,
they will be very, very hurt because they're like, what
did I do wrong this time that you don't give
me an extra fifteen minutes. This is why the frame
of therapy is so important. And I learned that the

(01:25:46):
hard way early on in my career and have trained
my trainees along those lines. It's hard, though, you know,
because you lose track of time or therapy doesn't wrap
up neatly, and you feel bad as a therapist, and
so you go over. Now, some therapists can manage that, okay,
and sometimes I'll go over by five minutes here and there.

(01:26:07):
But it's very important that when in doubt, you follow
the frame and you do a lot of things to
make sure that you can wrap up in the time.

Speaker 3 (01:26:16):
Just exactly for this reason.

Speaker 2 (01:26:18):
That are going to hear it, the ethical providers, the
other survivors. Let's talk about my former client, who's getting
a lot of traction. I wouldn't know because she blocked me.
This one is especially hard for me because she's someone
that I also considered a friend, My only client that
I've ever had that was my friend first.

Speaker 3 (01:26:37):
And so, okay, so she had a client.

Speaker 1 (01:26:44):
Now, coaches don't have any ethical codes, they don't have
any formal training, or some of them do have formal training,
but they usually don't. So a life coach is you know, anyone.
A ten year old can be a life coach. Literally,
So what she's saying is that this was a friend
who became a client, and now that client has blocked

(01:27:05):
her and maybe talking about her or something.

Speaker 3 (01:27:07):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:27:08):
Her betrayal is extra stingy. It's okay if she wasn't
happy with my coaching services. I have plenty of clients
that have finished twelve weeks with me and then re
signed for more coaching. And the way that I left
it with this client slash friend who's on here spreading
what she wants to spread. What she told me that

(01:27:29):
she was going to leave me a positive review film
a testimonial video for me, and she seemed really happy.
So if she wasn't happy, that's on her to tell
me what she wasn't happy about, so we could make that.

Speaker 5 (01:27:43):
Right irony, Right, Yeah, yeah, Well comes around goes around,
I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:27:58):
And if she wants to say that I scammed her,
that's okay. If she wants to say that I forced
her to stay on the phone while she made her
first payment, okay, her card got to This.

Speaker 1 (01:28:11):
Is why this is one of the reasons why I
hate TikTok is because there's a lot of encouragement and
a culture of people calling people out right. I don't know,
but it sounds like a different TikTok person posted videos
talking shit about her.

Speaker 3 (01:28:32):
It's just a guess. She hasn't said that specifically, but
I'm trying to read between the lines. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:28:38):
Of course YouTube does this, all social media does this.
But when I'm perusing TikTok, which is pretty rare, the
algorithm will send me more of this kind of stuff.
I try to move past it or downvote it, because
then the algorithm will not show me that kind of stuff.
But it's just impossible because there's just so much stuff
and the algorith anyway. So it's just one of the

(01:29:00):
reasons why I hate TikTok because instead of actually just
dealing with it and going directly to the person or
handling it in a responsible way, you know, maybe going
to a light sigboard, maybe talking with your therapist, talking
with your friends, instantly it's let's go on TikTok and
just yamer and talk shit about whoever we want to

(01:29:20):
talk shit about.

Speaker 3 (01:29:22):
And I just think it's it. Now. Are there responsible
usages of it, for sure?

Speaker 1 (01:29:27):
But so often, you know, I don't know if I'm
just reviewing the bad cases, but so often the call
out culture on TikTok, at the very least is cringe
and at worst is just flat out lying, is flat
out defamation. An equal problem is the fact that you

(01:29:48):
know there's an audience for this, right if people saw
people say stuff like this, and when we're like, well,
I don't know, you know, I wasn't there, can't really
tell I'm not going to engage, I'm not going to comment,
I'm not going to like, I'm not gonna to follow.

Speaker 3 (01:30:01):
I'll just move on. Then this stuff wouldn't happen.

Speaker 1 (01:30:03):
So it's a system you have the person that provides it,
and you have the massive audience that says, ooh, you know.
You know, now some people are tuning in because they're
hate watching, or they're watching a train wreck. They know
something bad is happening, and they're just like, you know,
let me get my popcorn. But from the sound of it,
and I would imagine it true that most people are

(01:30:24):
watching because they are going along with her story at
least to some extent.

Speaker 4 (01:30:29):
Climbed and she seemed really flustered.

Speaker 2 (01:30:31):
So I said, I'll wait with you, no problem, and yeah,
she was really apologetic.

Speaker 4 (01:30:38):
I'm like, yeah, it's totally fine, Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:30:40):
So I watched the rest of it, and there wasn't
anything particularly reaction worthy. It was just more of her
talking about it and saying that there are clinicians that
are dming her, saying that they believe her and they
support her, and a lot of people that have been
exploited and harmed by their therapists who are supporting her.

(01:31:03):
And I want to say again that there are a
lot of people out there who have been exploited by
their therapists and harmed. So that does happen, and probably
there's not enough talk about it. So if someone comes
along and has a dubious story, well at least it's
a story that you can latch onto and feel validated

(01:31:23):
to some extent. So I think there's that, But I'm
guessing that most people or I don't know. I haven't
looked at what the reaction is, but I would like
to think that people watching this series would at least
be skeptical of her claimed because in the several videos
that she posted, I think there were over twenty, at

(01:31:44):
no point did she ever indicate him having done anything.
She talked about how he lacked eye contact this one time,
or he looked uncomfortable to her, or he seemed like
he was pleased in this one moment.

Speaker 3 (01:31:57):
At no point.

Speaker 1 (01:31:58):
I kept thinking, at some point in this video, she's
going to say, and then he asked me out on
a date, or then he touched my knee or he
kissed me or something, you know, because that does happen, unfortunately,
But there was nothing like that. If anything, she is
talking about one of the most buttoned up ethical clinicians
that probably exists, you know. I mean, I would like

(01:32:21):
to think that most therapists would have generally this boundary
and this ethical professionalism. I get so many of the
stories of therapists that do violate boundaries that I'm always
wincing whenever I hear these kinds of stories start. And
I was wincing the no time, and nothing ever happened.
So okay, So what's the final word. Well, I can't

(01:32:42):
know what's really happening with her. All I can say
is that her claims are not convincing. She does not
provide any data, and I will commend her for not
making up data right at some point because she was
releasing these videos and she is getting a lot of attacks,
which is not okay to attack her.

Speaker 3 (01:33:03):
It's not okay to bully her.

Speaker 1 (01:33:05):
I don't even know if it makes much sense to
even comment back at her and directly and say I
think you're in the wrong, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:33:13):
I just don't know what the.

Speaker 1 (01:33:15):
Right thing to do there is when you're interacting with people,
especially in crowd dynamics like this. But it sounds like
she was being attacked and she cut off, she turned
off her comments on her videos, so she was getting
DMS or something anyway, But at some point there was
an incentive for her to invent something right, to say, well, Okay,

(01:33:38):
you want concrete, well, I'll give it to you. You know,
he actually touched me this one time, or he asked
me out, and I have receipts.

Speaker 3 (01:33:45):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:33:45):
People will do that, or they'll allude to something. They'll
be like, well, something happened, but I can't say because
I'm worried about being sued, and so you're just gonna
have to trust me.

Speaker 3 (01:33:54):
People do that on TikTok all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:33:56):
I've actually reviewed some of those videos, Like there was
someone that was talking shit about someone on Love is
Blind and I was looking was watching the video and
I'm like waiting for that concrete piece of evidence, you know,
from this TikToker, this influencer, and it never came.

Speaker 3 (01:34:10):
But she kept saying, well, you know, things happen.

Speaker 1 (01:34:12):
You're just gonna have to believe me, and that I
just find you know, if something happened, then okay. And
I would stand by someone not knowing exactly what to say.
But I think there's a lot of evidence pointing in
the direction of a lot of these people. They don't
have anything and they're doing it for attention, or they
or they're massively distorted and the other thing I'll say
is there's nothing wrong with someone falling in love with

(01:34:35):
their psychiatrist.

Speaker 3 (01:34:36):
That's normal.

Speaker 1 (01:34:37):
It's not super common, but it's common enough. We've understood
it for a long time. There's nothing wrong. So nothing
If she fell in love with a psychiatrist, there's nothing
wrong with that at all. If anything, it just indicates
that she was opening herself up to the therapeutic relationship
in a way that might have helped. There's also nothing
wrong with being obsessive people. I think some people are
calling her like a stalker or something. There's no indication

(01:34:57):
of that. There's no lodication that she showed up at
his house. That'll happen sometimes. She was having feelings and
that's all normal. It's okay. There's no stigma about it.
It's nothing shameful. How do you have control over your heart?

Speaker 3 (01:35:11):
You don't.

Speaker 1 (01:35:12):
So she had those feelings, and as a client's she
has the freedom to explore that and to you know,
dive into it and encourage it. It's fine as long
she doesn't committedye crime or harm him in any way,
which I didn't hear anything other than posting everything on
TikTok calling him a groomer, predator, multiple times, he exploited her,

(01:35:33):
you know, all those terms, which.

Speaker 3 (01:35:35):
Is not okay to say.

Speaker 1 (01:35:38):
You know, if she posted TikTok videos saying that she
was confused or she wondered if he had secret feelings
for her, she didn't really know, but she didn't. She
came right out of the gate call him a predator
or a groomer and said, I'm going to tell my story.
And before you know, the full series was out. People

(01:36:00):
probably assumed that something bad happened. She just was getting
to it, but it never happened. And so it's just
not okay.

Speaker 3 (01:36:09):
I don't care.

Speaker 1 (01:36:10):
You know, if you have a personality sorder and you
have trauma, you know, most people who have this experience,
of which I've had many clients and I've worked with them.

Speaker 3 (01:36:19):
Any therapists who have had clients like.

Speaker 1 (01:36:20):
This, they don't go on TikTok and they don't accuse
their therapists of being a predator and a narcissist. And
I don't know if she said narcissists, which is actually
kind of surprising, but it's one thing to go through
it's another thing to publicly accuse someone of something. Do
people have freedom of speech to blog?

Speaker 3 (01:36:40):
Yeah, but I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:36:42):
I just feel like in today's world, at the very least,
audiences have to be skeptical and we have to as
an audience, have a way of going. I don't know
unless I hear some data and I can feel assured
that something actually happened. I'm just going to reserve judgment
until I hear otherwise. And I think if ninety nine

(01:37:02):
point nine to nine percent of the audience did that,
I think it would be a different story. I don't
think it would have gone viral. I think it just
would have been like, Okay, well someone's blogging, and I'll
pay attention, but I'm I'm not going to know either
way until I get more of her story or something,
you know what I mean. So it's not only an
indictment on TikTokers who do this kind of thing or

(01:37:23):
people who accuse, but also on the audience.

Speaker 3 (01:37:27):
Right, final word is interesting situation.

Speaker 1 (01:37:31):
And I think this will be kind of like a
tent pole or a totem for us to refer to
as things. You know, there seems to be like these moments.
And of course, you know, TikTok and social media have
been around for a long time and other people have
done things like this, but not to be this viral
to the point where a lot of people are being,
you know, exposed to this and learning about it, at

(01:37:54):
least the tagline, you know, and five years from now
we'll see other examples.

Speaker 3 (01:37:59):
Well remember that, member, Kendra, you know that whole thing.

Speaker 1 (01:38:02):
And the other thing is that there's a pretty good
chance that she's suffering a.

Speaker 3 (01:38:06):
Lot, right, And I feel bad for that.

Speaker 1 (01:38:12):
You know, there's a reason why I specialize in people
with personality stories.

Speaker 3 (01:38:16):
I'm not saying she has one. I have no idea. Honestly,
I'm not being coy about that.

Speaker 1 (01:38:22):
When I diagnose someone with personal disorder, I usually wait
months before I actually will confidently apply that label to
them officially in the records.

Speaker 3 (01:38:33):
You know. So I can't tell from a TikTok video series.

Speaker 1 (01:38:37):
But these individuals who you know, did people who typically
fall in love and have intense transference towards their therapist,
typically they have personality sorers as a result of severe
relational trauma growing up. And these individuals are suffering, and
they're desperate, and it's horrible. It's a constant feeling of

(01:38:58):
abandonments and being a and being worthless and desperation. It's
a very tough emotional life for these individuals, and as
a symptom of that, they will fall in love with
their therapists sometimes, or at least have very very intense
feelings and transference towards their therapists. And maybe even some

(01:39:19):
of them will go to TikTok if they're oriented that way,
and we'll talk about it. And I have the utmost
sympathy and empathy for people like this. I chose to
specialize in these kinds of clients because they deserve so
much love, so much of our attention, so much of
our care, so much leeway. And I have made it

(01:39:42):
my life's mission to help people like this. I've made
it my life's mission to educate other therapists and supervise
them and guide them on how to help clients like this.
With all my supervises, they eventually have a client like this,
And there's this crucible, there's this pivot point where they

(01:40:04):
always question, do I want to work with clients like this?
Because this is not what I thought it was going
to be like. It is hard. My entire soul and
mind and body and spirit is like on trial. Every
second of every session with this client, with these kinds
of clients, and I don't know if I can handle it,

(01:40:26):
and I will work really hard to support my supervises,
to give them the education and the guidance and the
mentorship so that they can get through that, so that
they actually can go on to help people like this
in the future, because if we don't help people like this,
then these people are truly lost. And we need more

(01:40:51):
therapists that specialize in this and know how to work
with clients like this, because often these sorts of clients
will blow out of therapy because the therapist doesn't know
what they're doing. It sounds like this psychiatrist did know
what they were doing, but a lot of therapists don't.
They will refer out or at the drop of a hat,

(01:41:11):
oh my kind's lovely, I've been refer them out. And
if that's your policy, that's fine. But you have to
screen clients in advance so that you don't engage with
a client and then terminate with them, because it's hard.
So you have to be extremely limited in the terms
of clients you work with because it's hard to detect
these clients upfront anyway. So I'm very passionate about that

(01:41:34):
because these individuals are suffering. They did not deserve to
be treated the way that they were treated growing up.
They have ongoing, minute by minute trauma reactivity that's happening
on a constant basis, and it sucks. And there is
a therapy out there that can drastically reduce that suffering,

(01:41:56):
and it's long term therapy, and it's hard work for
everyone concerned. But I consider it to be my calling,
the reason why I'm here, at least one of them anyway,
And if you know she has that kind of suffering
or other people like that, I have so much love

(01:42:19):
and so much affection, so much sympathy and empathy for
these people.

Speaker 3 (01:42:24):
I just I just do.

Speaker 1 (01:42:26):
And if she's one of those individuals, then I feel
that way towards her. And I also would totally understand
why someone would I guess, blog or you know, publicly
post about this, because it's all consuming.

Speaker 3 (01:42:40):
Again, the problem is the audience.

Speaker 1 (01:42:41):
You know, if the audience knew everything that I know,
I think they would look at a video like this
and go like, huh, maybe it's this, maybe it's that. Well,
let's let's not engage, let's not up, vote down, vote. Yet,
let's not attack her, let's not dox him. You know,
that's an important piece of this is that people go
after her and say like, why did you do this?

(01:43:01):
And I don't know, you know, I would it's not
going to happen. But it would be nice to live
in a world where someone could post something like this
and audiences would just reserve judgment at very least they
wouldn't attack him, And certainly would I attack her and
just be like, oh, okay, sounds like she's going through something.
Maybe I'll just comment and say like, hey, you know,
I hope things turn out. Or if he did exploit you,

(01:43:24):
that's not okay, you know, I hope you're doing better
now or something like that, you know, and that just
doesn't happen. So I think that's part of the you
know that that's like the main problem. Some would say, well,
she knows that something like this could happen, so she
shouldn't have put this out there for doxing another. I

(01:43:46):
didn't go into it, but she actually talks about how,
and good on her for attacking people who were doxing him.
But she was saying that people found pictures of him
and his family and we're posting that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:43:59):
I mean, what the fuck? I mean, the ugh, that
kind of shit has to stop, and I don't know
what to do about it. I feel like there should
be a legal recourse. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:44:18):
It's sort of like the paparazzi. It's like, well, you
want the freedom of the press, but and you want
freedom of speech online, but.

Speaker 3 (01:44:25):
That it's just not fucking okay man.

Speaker 1 (01:44:28):
And it's happened to me, so I know how it feels,
and I, you know, I've had some pretty intense versions
of it, but nothing like what other people get.

Speaker 3 (01:44:38):
And I just I just think it's just not okay
on so many others.

Speaker 1 (01:44:42):
There should be some recourse. There should be a button
that should be able to be pressed by a platform
and say no, shut that down, or some some kind
of firewall or some kind of algorithm that you know
doesn't let you post that kind of stuff online. I
don't know, or just a general cultural understanding of like, hey,
don't do that. I don't know. Well, on that note,

(01:45:05):
everyone out there, please take care of yourself because you
deserve it, you really really do.

Speaker 4 (01:45:16):
Li

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I Fell In Love With My Psychiatrist - Therapist Reacts

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}I Fell In Love With My Psychiatrist - Therapist Reacts