Leftover 17th Anniversary Questions #3

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, deserving listeners. As promised, I am going to do
a third episode now in which I answer or respond
to the questions submitted on the survey for the seventeenth
anniversary live stream. Patrons and YouTube members submitted a bunch
of questions that we got to some of them during

(00:21):
the live stream, and I in the previous two episodes
got to a lot of the leftover ones, but there
are many leftover, and so I'm going to truly do
speed round this time against my normal way. This first
question is from patron Zara. She says, what kind of
therapy is best suited for borderline patients, specifically the ones

(00:42):
with the most deficits in the area of impulsivity, aggression,
and identity issues. End of question. Good question, By the way,
Stacey told me that someone emailed recently saying that they
felt like I haven't talked about Borderline recently and they
felt neglected. They're sort of joking, I think, but yeah,

(01:02):
I mean, it's an interesting thing because you know, a
good portion of what we talk about on the podcast
does have to do with borderline and borderline related syndromes
and experiences. And I could see how some of the
listeners would like to hear that sort of material and content,

(01:24):
and might even be comforted by occasional check ins, if
you will. But from my standpoint, I feel like I
don't want to bore people by talking about the same
thing over and over again. Not that borderline the topic
is the same thing, but the same aspects of borderline,
the same answers to the same questions. But when I

(01:46):
thought about it, I imagine that all of us, including myself,
have forgotten the questions and answers or the topics that
I've touched on in the past, especially since the podcast
is seventeen years old. And also when when I listen
to podcasts and YouTube channel. Sometimes I like it, especially
if I'm a fan for many, many years. Sometimes I

(02:07):
like it when they revisit things even if I vaguely
remember them talking about it before, because I don't know,
it just feels helpful and comforting. So anyway, but since
we're in lightning round right here, what I'll say is
that the type of therapy you want to look for

(02:30):
when it comes to borderline, particularly people with impulsivity, aggression,
and identity issues, meaning that they're in the upper end
of the spectrum of borderline you want to look for
a type of therapy that appreciates borderline as what you
know in the reality that it is, and also a

(02:50):
type of therapy that involves confrontation is one word for it.
Another word for it is kind of like reality testing.
You know, DBT will do this kind of work where
you will check in with the question as to whether
or not your interpretation is accurate. Right, So that element,

(03:11):
and then the other element is corrective experiences that the
type of therapy appreciates that through a secure relationship, one
that has to be hard fought for by the therapist
with a ton of counter transference. That through that corrective
experience with a therapist, then that's where the real healing occurs.

(03:34):
The way to think about it is that the awareness
and the reality testing, if you will, is what you
do in the short term to manage overreactivity and harm.
And then the corrective experiences actually rewire the brain such
that you don't need to engage in self awareness and

(03:56):
confrontation and reality testing because you don't have as intense
distortions as you did originally. So the first one is
sort of a stopgap measure and the second is a
long term solution. And there are many types of therapy
that will be core to this. DBT doesn't actually do
corrective experiences strictly speaking, but a DBT therapist might know

(04:21):
how to do that. In addition, there are psychodynamic based
therapies that are specialized in borderline and other related syndromes.
There's also mentalization based therapy, which I believe is focused
on borderline. Don't quote me on that, but you know
those are the things I look for, all right. The

(04:43):
next question is really good, really self aware and nice
to hear anonymous. I'll summarize. She basically says that she
has toxic and abusive tendencies in her relationship, and she's
in therapy but she doesn't talk about it or she
doesn't emphasize it enough in therapy, and she's in this

(05:07):
cycle with her therapist where she half intends to bring
it up in therapy but then won't or will downplay
it minimize it, and then we'll be upset after the session.
Oh I should have told my therapy, And it just
goes on and on, and so she's wondering, like what
do I need to do. She even says that sometimes

(05:28):
she'll switch therapists as a way of avoiding the topic.
And what I'll say is, yeah, I mean, on one hand,
you're way above the curve in that you are admitting
it to yourself, so you're you know, that's a good
step forward for sure, and shows a lot of strength
and a lot of maturity. And yeah, it's hard, you know,

(05:52):
talking about much lesser things in therapy can be really hard.
As a client myself, I can attest to this. You'd
think that I wouldn't have a problem talking about minorly
concerning or minorly shameful things, and yet I found it
very hard. So it's normal. Sometimes it can help to

(06:12):
write it down and read it, or to write an
email and say, hey, I need to talk with you
about something I'm abusive and toxic and you know, and
then the therapist, and then you tell the therapist, and
don't let me wiggle out of it in this session
because what I'm in front of you. Another thing to
do is just to start out with something less concerning,

(06:34):
less shameful, and experience that with your therapists, and then
your body will just feel more ready to tell your therapist.
The other thing I can tell you is that if
your therapist is good at all. They will be elated
that you're telling them and will be very kind because

(06:59):
for a for a client to volunteer that they are
abusive shows so much strength and so much vulnerability and
so much health that the vast majority of therapists will
just praise you up and down before they begin to
actually work on it. So I don't know if that helps.
Harry Sex's question is from patron sarahs. She says, I've

(07:22):
decided to distance myself from my husband's parents after years
of feeling mistreated. He still visits them, which I respect,
but I no longer go because the interactions leave me
feeling sick and upset. People often judge him for not
taking my side, but I don't see it that way.
He grew up with their behavior, so it feels normal
to him. Have you seen this kind of dynamic before

(07:43):
and does it usually play out? And how does it
usually play out? In a question? I don't know how
it usually plays out, but I have seen the situation before,
and it's difficult. It sounds very much like the two
of you are handling it in a very healthy way.
So many pitfalls He could feel like he's obligated to

(08:05):
quote unquote take your side when he doesn't really want to.
You could feel obligated to show up with his parents
even though it feels traumatizing to you. It sounds like
you're both supporting each other in this way, and that's
kind of rare because so often it's threatening to people,
particularly him, honestly, because for you to draw a boundary

(08:27):
could feel like now he has to draw that boundary
or he has to now look at the reality of
his childhood and say, oh my god, my parents are monsters.
You know, this outsider is looking in and it's normal.
You know, there's a lot of pitfalls to it, but
the way you're describing it sounds incredibly healthy, and you know,

(08:48):
fuck other people that judge you, all right, Lightning Round.
This question is from patron Lydia. She says, please tell
me about your thoughts on ro CD. It can be
so confusing to navigate. End of question. Yeah, this is
relationship OCD, and so I'm working on my deep dive

(09:09):
on Limerens and maybe I'll get into relationship OCD in
that episode. I'm guessing I will. I've only done a
cursory once over on the outline, and I've also I
sent a survey to everybody to fill out about limbreates,
whether they experienced it or not, and uh, yeah, so

(09:32):
I guess watch out for that. But generally speaking, yeah,
I mean, relationship OCD is well. OCD is rough, doesn't
matter what type it is. OCD is one of the
worst disorders one can suffer from. I mean, I don't
know how to put these things on a scale, but
people with legit OCD are in a constant state of

(09:53):
suffering and it's so hard to treat. But I can
tell you that real therapy, exposure therapy, people who specialize
in this sort of thing often see positive outcomes. It's
not without its pain to have the gain, meaning that
you have to expose yourself to the thing that terrifies

(10:14):
you in small increments, you know, baby steps, but it
fucking works. Man. So with relationship o CD, that's the stimulus,
that's the obsession, And with exposure and with cognitive therapy,
then you can find relief. It doesn't guarantee full relief

(10:38):
or long term relief. I mean usually with people with OCD,
you can do intensive therapy for a year and recover
you know, quite well, but five years later it just
comes back. It's just one of those things, you know,
Seemingly we have these tendencies for people with anxiety. You know,
for myself, I don't have OCD, but i have things

(10:59):
adjacent to it, and I've done a lot of therapy
and a lot of personal personal work, and yet the
anxiety just crops up. One could say that it has
to do with switting back into old ways of thinking
or with stress, but really, for my life, it just happens.
It doesn't seem to have any rhyme or reason to it.

(11:22):
It just kind of morphs and moves through me in
various different ways, you know, from claustrophobia to health anxiety,
to just generalized anxiety, to specific phobias to mild OCD. Anyway,
So yeah, it's horrible, all right, It's like a break,

(11:46):
all right, lightning around, lightning around, all right, anonymous, he says,
I feel like I've learned more from engaging with Kirk's
material over the last couple of months than I have
in many years of therapy. Do you have any tips
on how colleges should assess the quality of prospective therapists.
I've dedicated so much time to ones who were less
than spectacular end of question. Well, Anonymous, that's very nice

(12:11):
to say and flattering to me. But I have heard
this from various different angles, and what I'll say is,
in all likelihood, the therapists that you've had just weren't
good fits and might have actually not been very great.
But they're out there. Believe me. For those of you
who are in a similar camp to Anonymous here, there

(12:32):
are wonderful therapists out there, and probably in your jurisdiction
there are hundreds thousands of really excellent therapists who are
a good fit for you. It just takes time. You know,
the random referral that you got and you went to
that therapist, the chance of that work and out's pretty slim.

(12:55):
And so to draw conclusions on the whole industry based
on that anecdotal experience is, you know, is you know,
jumping the gun. So there's that. Having said that, you know,
this material, my podcast, the YouTube channel for it to

(13:17):
outshine one's bad fitted therapists in the past doesn't surprise me.
I've been doing this for seventeen years and I gear
the material kind of in that way. Now, I'm not
anyone's therapist that's listening to the podcast. Well, I suppose
some of my clients do list podcast, so that's not
exactly but you know, you know what I'm saying. But yeah, yeah,

(13:40):
it can be therapeutic, and at the very least, it
could be educational, which can be therapeutic. For myself, one
of the most therapeutic things that I ever experienced was
when I learned about panic disorder, which effectively ended my
panic disorder. I didn't need therapy, I just needed knowledge.
And I assume that a lot of you have had

(14:03):
that experience where in parting of knowledge, whether it's me
or a guest or someone else, has really been therapeutic
for you. So yeah, that doesn't surprise you. But also
just the ongoing nature of this podcast is frequently posted
throughout the week, and that contact can be corrective for

(14:27):
some people. It's limited, obviously because it's not an in
person relationship, but you know, I could see that absolutely
being therapeutic, especially if you've never experienced someone of my ILK,
either in therapy or otherwise, especially if you've never experienced
a man who was of my ILK. If you will,

(14:51):
And there's nothing particular about me, It just is that
I'm not abusive and I'm not toxic, and that's uh
to some. In a lot of ways, I'm the norm
I'm you know, I'm mainstream. I'm just a normy that
grew up with good parents, and uh, there's a lot
of people like me, so I'm not particularly different, although

(15:14):
I think one thing different about me, if I might
compliment myself, is that I've always known how to put
things into words in a way that conveys stuff. I
remember when I was in high school because I was
I've always been, you know, a philosopher of sorts, a
yam or or a bother of my own random thoughts

(15:36):
to other people. I can't remember who it was, but
someone said, you know, you always know the right way
to Maybe it was actually in college, so you always
know the right thing to say. It's so weird like you.
And it wasn't like I was bullshitting. They were just saying,
you always know, like how to how to say something.

(15:57):
I can't remember what this person was saying, but it
was the first time I'd ever heard that, and I
never thought of that of myself. That was the last
I've always thought of myself as kind of a dufus,
mostly because my writing was so bad because of my dyslexia,
which has a lot to do with how you think right,
and so because of my writing was so bad, I
thought I was just a dufist and an inarticulate boob.

(16:20):
But when I heard that, I thought, huh. And I
did feel competent in that way, and I did look
at different moments where I was able to say something
that felt as I'm saying it, I'm literally like, well,
that sounds kind of cool. You'll see me do that.
Sometimes I'll say something and I'll be like, ohh, I
kind of like that, And that happens a lot, you know,

(16:41):
I'll and then I'll retain it and then I'll say
it again later, you know. And I'm guessing a lot
of therapists are like this because there's so many moments
for that kind of thing. So, you know, maybe that's
helpful anyway. Golly, shut up, Kirk, Let's move on. But

(17:02):
the question you have is do you have any tips
on how colleges should assess the quality of prospective therapists.
It is hard. I have trained some therapists who did
not meet criteria to be gate kept, but I did
have major concerns about how on the Bell curve of competence,

(17:23):
they would be, but I would see them work with
clients and read their evaluations and the clients would love them. So,
you know, there's a lot of different people in the world.
And for those for those trainees that I thought were
you know, they were good, they were competents. I wouldn't
pass them otherwise, but just thought, I wonder how many

(17:44):
people are going to like this person. Well, probably that
trainee just wouldn't be a good therapist for me. And
I'm just one random Yahoo on the planet. There's a
lot of Yahoo's on the planet anyway. Oh, there's that.
But it is kind of a problem, and I actually
took it very seriously, the gatekeeping aspect of being a

(18:07):
professor and a supervisor still do. Actually wrote about it
in my supervision book, and I have gate kept people.
They almost always sue me, you know, because they've invested
tens of thousands of dollars into the program and I
kick them out of the program and they take issue
with it, as I suppose anyone would. They've always lost

(18:30):
in court, but that's what happens. And I would find
that a lot of my colleagues wouldn't stick their neck
out like that because it's a pain in the ass.
It's so much easier just to pass people. So, yeah,
it's unfortunate, all right. The sext question is interesting, Tom.
He says, what is the best approach to not enable

(18:51):
or encourage friends who self diagnose themselves with extreme conditions
like to associate of nity disorder without insulting them or
straight up telling them that you don't believe them? End
of question? Yeah, I get it, and I've been there,
And what I would say is case by case basis

(19:13):
read the room. Do you really know that they don't
have it? How important is it to confront them on this?
Because I'm guessing in most circumstances for you, Tom, unless
you're a clinician, which I'm guessing maybe or not. But
even if you are, it doesn't really matter that It's

(19:34):
not strictly necessary to confront people. You know, are they misguided?
Could that misguidedness lead them down wrong roads? You know?
I suppose so, but often maybe not. You know a
lot of so there's a lot of reasons why people

(19:54):
will misdiagnose. One is this because TikTok has mostly bullshit
about psychology. I said this in our earlier episode, and
if you have a problem with that, I would just
watch my reaction videos on YouTube, in which I just
type in psychology into TikTok and react to the first
thirty videos, of which twenty seven of them are utterly

(20:18):
ridiculous misinformation and so and harmful and goofy, but like
millions and millions of views and thumbs up, it's just
like my God anyway. So there's a lot of reasons
for it, but I think a major reason is that

(20:39):
there's a lot of suffering in the world right There's
a lot of just sadness and depression, of demoralization and
loneliness and anxiety and problems in relationships, shame, and people
are naturally looking for answers. The problem is is that
the vast majority of suffering in the world does not
have a diagnosis. But people like a diagnosis, and so

(21:04):
they stumble upon something like ADHD and the way that
it's talked about, and research has shown this that on
social media. I don't know if it's specifically TikTok, but
online they did a study about all the various posts
and videos about ADHD. Can't I can't remember the exact

(21:25):
stat but it was something like seventy percent of the
information was just flat out wrong and another twenty percent
was very questionable or something anyway, which doesn't surprise me
at all. And so the umbrella under which is ADHD

(21:47):
is so broad that it'll capture so many people who
actually don't have ADHD. But without that label, they have nothing,
and they don't have a community, they don't have an explanation,
and they don't have an avenue to cope. So I
get it, and that's a failing on my field. We

(22:11):
don't have either a system of helping people with other
sorts of labels. You know, it makes now that I'm
talking about it makes me think we should have like
a separate DSM or a Yeah, I guess it would
be a separate I was going to say, it could
be like another chapter in the DSM, but it would
be pretty pretty beefy, maybe just as big as the DSM.

(22:35):
Of all these other labels that aren't disorders but their
syndromes or conditions or experiences or personality clusters. Because they're
out there. You know, you'll hear me talk about psychopathies,
you know, for psychopaths that's not in the DSM, because
of reasons I won't bother you with right now. But

(22:57):
you know, avoiding attachment is not in the DSM a
lot of other things. You know, there's just so many
different things that if made official and defined and researched
and actually set in stone so that TikTok can't fuck
it up, then people can turn to that, you know,

(23:17):
And there used to be that in the DSM. FO
there used to be these V codes and stuff. I
don't know how helpful that was, but anyway, I will
say that what I do is that when people talk
about it, if they ask me, I will tentatively give

(23:37):
them kind of a breakdown of the disorder, the kind
of key elements. And like with ADHD, one of the
key elements is well, geez, I don't have time to
get into it. But because so often, for example with ADHD,
because I've actually talked with a number of friends who

(24:00):
thought they were ADHD because of Instagram and TikTok, and
and when I do an assessment, you know, a friend
question and answer. It's not an assessment, but it's me
just educating my friends about it. I would say nine
times out of ten, I say, in all likelihood, if

(24:20):
you went and had a full assessment, you would not
be found to have ADHD because you don't have this, this,
and this. But some of my friends do legit have ADHD,
you know, so it's not always the case. But the
thing that I found is that the symptoms so to speak,

(24:43):
that they have that they experience, they either one don't
understand the meaning of the symptom, you know, like impulsivity
problems or with mood swings or like. These terms are
so amorphous to lay people that they have no idea
how to apply that to real life. And that's where

(25:06):
clinicians come in. And frankly, a lot of clinicians don't
even understand it unless they have experience in that area.
Because I've seen so many clinicians not understand what mania is.
They can read it in the DSM, but they have
no clue what that means in reality anyway. So what
I find is that they have sort of the ancillary

(25:29):
symptoms of symptoms, you know, like there are symptoms of symptoms,
like if you have ADHD, then it will likely cause
other problems that aren't core to ADHD, like low self
esteem for example. That's not core to ADHD, but it's
frequently associated because ADHD kids are raised in an environment

(25:51):
where they are unable to perform, like in school, and
are shamed, or at the very least, they share themselves
because they're getting bad grades or they're getting yelled at
in class to pay attention, and so this lower self esteem.
So the things that are talked about on TikTok and

(26:12):
stuff often are those symptoms of symptoms that you know,
do you have low self esteem? And are you having
trouble with it? And people are like, yeah, I have
low self esteem. But there's a lot of reasons why
people would have low self esteem, but there's not a
lot of guidance about the labels that people can grab onto.
And I wish I could just tell everyone it's okay
to just say you have low self esteem. That's not

(26:34):
a disorder. It's not in the DSM, but it's serious.
You know, low self esteem sucks and you don't need
another label. Now. If another label exists, then fine. But
anyway I'm rambling, Yeah, so you're asking how do you
help them without insulting them. I would just ask, hey,

(26:56):
I could this is what I've done. I say, hey,
I know a lot about this label that you're exploring
for yourself. If you would like me to bother you
with some information, you could tell me, and you could
even dial in how much information you want. You could say,
I want the three minute version, then I'll give you that.

(27:20):
If you want the half an hour version, I'll give
you that. Or if you want me to point you
in a direction. You know, I'm an expert on this,
so feel free to use me. Or you can tell
me to go to hell and I won't be upset.
So I don't know. I don't know if that. Let's
take a break, all right, Seriously, lightning around Sam, She says,

(27:44):
your own psychology about roller coasters, that's not a question.
But I will talk about my experience with thrower coasters.
I used to I loved them growing up. I was
kind of a daredevil, not a I mean, I liked
if you're familiar with the zipper, that was my favorite.
I really loved all those kinds of things, and my

(28:06):
friends and my siblings weren't as into you know, they
would be like, oh, that's too far. But something happened
around the age of twenty five, maybe even that early. Actually,
I was at the Piallap Fair. If you're familiar and
I was on the big roller coaster. If you're familiar,
it's just I'm sure it doesn't exist anymore. But it
was this really old wood white roller coaster classic in Piallo,

(28:30):
just south of Seattle, at this big fair that would
happen every September. And after I got off, I felt
so nauseous and I felt sick all day. So the
whole fair day was like ruined for me, and I thought,
what's going on? And then I was in graduate school,

(28:52):
so I'm learning about physiology and stuff, and I learned
that the inner ear starts to solidify or get less
viscous or something, so it has a harder time recovering
after having it's I don't know if it's the gyroscopic function,
you know, the ability to know where your body is
in space and movement and stuff. It starts to it

(29:14):
becomes less laybile maybe it's the word. Anyway, and you
start getting more sick. And it was just worse from
there to the point where now when I go on
roller coasters, which is kind of rare, I have another
problem where if there's like a valley in the you know,

(29:36):
where you go down and then up and there's g
forces on my body that pushes my blood away from
my head. I will pass out. I'll just you know,
you've seen those videos of people past like there's something
about I have a very sensitive vassal vagel and it
makes it so that I think that if there's any

(29:59):
possibility of passing out or fainting, I'll do it. And
so other people might just get a little light headed,
but all absolutely, you know, tunnel vision, and I'm out,
or at the very least, it'll be very uncomfortable. It's
not fun to almost pass out. It feels bad, and
I'll get nauseous and I will be sick for the
rest of the day. I also get claustrophobic on those

(30:21):
fucking things. And I went on the Harry Potter ride
in Universal Studios in LA and it was it was
brand new at the time, and it was, you know,
all the butter beer and all the wands and D
D D and there's this ride and it's pretty cool.
But it broke halfway through and we were hung hanging

(30:44):
upside down and the whole because the thing, you know,
it's this ride and it's anyway, We're hanging upside down
and I'm you know, bolted in and everything turns off,
all the lights, all the bells and whistles. The whole
thing grinds to it. And after we got off of
the ride, they tried to make it seem like that

(31:06):
was part of the ride, but I know it wasn't
fucking part of the ride. I asked some I asked
other people like did it just suddenly stop and all
the lights went out and the music stopped? And they're
like no, And it's like, well, okay, and I almost
had a full pan attack. And it's irrational, right, I'm
just on a ride. Everything's fine, I'm not going to
get hurt. But there's this phobia of like being held

(31:31):
down or locked in or unable to move or get
out or something, And so I'm never one another one
of those fucking things. Again. That's my psychology. Pocahontas, She says, what,
who's your favorite villain in psychology? Who's your favorite villain
in psychology? What do you mean in psychology, like like

(31:53):
Carl jung He because I get doesn't he don't quote
me on this, but I think he might have like
mild Nazi sympathizing. Don't call me on that. A favorite
villain I don't know, Jeoffrey Brathian. And then Patron Trisa,
She says, how does emberto come up with all his

(32:14):
various jobs? They always give me a chuckle end of question. Well,
that question is pretty confusing because he's always had one
job this entire time. So what do you mean by
all these various jobs? I mean maybe he's had two
jobs this whole time? Right, next question from Member Devin,
She says, if a three year old is having a

(32:35):
tantrum or meltdown and you try to console them, but
they don't want contact or verbal reassurance, what is the
best way to support them while honoring their boundary? End
of a question? Yeah, I mean this one's for the ages.
This question like how do you handle and really, as
a function of a tantrum or a meltdown is they

(32:57):
don't want to be consoled, they don't want any they
don't want anything from you, and they're beyond the pale. Right.
So the fact that when you're trying to console them
they don't prefer that, well that's part of the tantrum meltdown.
If they were open to being consoled by you, it

(33:20):
wouldn't really be a tantrum or a meltdown, you know,
So what's the best way to support them while honoring
their boundary? Well, I mean, I like the way you're
answering the question. You're not saying, how do I punish
this out of them? Just sit with it? The best thing,
you know, the biggest problem with tantrum or meltdowns is
that we have a fucking society. If we didn't have

(33:44):
a society, you know, if we lived in our natural
state of one hundred people in the African savannah during
the plesiscene, if a child had a meltdown or was
having a tantrum, it wouldn't really matter, right, because you're
just in a field or in a tree, or in
a cave or something. And the one hundred people that
know you and your family know that every kid has

(34:04):
tantrums and meltdowns and that's just okay and there's no consequence.
But in today's world, if your kid has a meltdown
at the McDonald's or at the grocery store, you're judge
and you're you know, and one of the worst things
that people will try to avoid is humiliation and shame

(34:25):
and judgment. And so that's the problem, and if you
just really pound that into your head and just say,
tantrums and meltdowns are fine. I mean, as long as
no one's getting hurt. Now, some kids will hurt themselves
or hurt other people, or they'll rent out into traffic,
you know, so that's a special case. You gotta, you know,
sometimes put hands on, which is which is what I

(34:47):
would do as a clinician when I had kids. I
mean I would get the big meltdowns, right, the violent,
hours long meltdown tantrums, and I would have to put
hands on. I would have to put them in what
we call therapeutic holds. And it's not fun and it's

(35:09):
physically grilling and can be injurious to everyone. But there's that.
So the other thing is to do your best to
attune overall. So you want to set up an environment
in which your kid can be emotional within reason, but

(35:30):
they can have that space, and then when they have meltdowns,
you just continue that approach and as you go through
those years, they eventually are fulfilled and develop and learn
how to comfort themselves or alert their needs earlier, or
trust themselves or others that they can get help or

(35:54):
assistance or support or whatever. It was that led to
the meltdown. You know, it'll dissipate over time. Now, another
thing to know is some kids are just prone to
tantents or meltdowns. So if you have a kid that
has tantrums, it's not often an indicator that you're a

(36:15):
bad parent. It just means that, for whatever reason, the
gene splicing that came together between sperm and egg resulted
in a disposition that was likely to lead to this,
regardless of how your parented a kid. Have you said
that traumatizing kids will result in more meltdowns and tantrums?

(36:35):
So you know there's that. But you know, I'm guessing
if you're listening to this podcasts, you're not one of
those people. Patron Dan or no, waituh, patron Cynthia in
BC wrote in and said, what do you think of
Christopher Palmer's theory about metabolism and mental illness? I sent
you his book? Well, Cynthia, I haven't gotten around or

(36:56):
reading yet, so I have other things on the dock
it and I will put down on the list for sure.
All right. The next question is from Danny. She says,
I've noticed a lot of people my age mid twenties
or sometimes even older. I've noticed a lot of people
my age have a lot of thoughts and concerns about
their age. Many feel like they're still teenagers internally, but

(37:19):
also have fears about getting old. I've heard that, due
to the lack of the usual markers of adulthood for
most people this age, like marriage, children, careers, home ownership, etc.
That people in their twenties are in a weird tocital
window between teenagehood and adulthood. What do you think can
be done to help young adults these days transition into adulthood?

(37:40):
End of question? Well, it's complicated, but the question begs
the question. I think that's the phrase, why do you
need to be an adult however you're or how do
you define adulthood and what would transition into that look
like exactly? Because that's not new. This phenomenon has been around.

(38:05):
Gen X was this way too when I was in
my twenties. It was the same in the nineteen nineties.
Me and all my friends were just advanced teenagers, you know.
We were pre marriage, pre children, pre career for the
most part. I mean, I started being a therapist when
I was twenty six, but I was kind of rare

(38:26):
but certainly up until that point, I was in that
boat and certainly didn't own a home until I was
I don't know, mid late thirties or something, So that's
not unusual. I think it's just always the case for

(38:47):
maybe gen X forward, that you have aspirations and there's
so many options there, and especially if you're middle class
or above that you know that you had the privilege
and you know you have options, and you just feel
kind of like a loser because of what you expected

(39:09):
to happen, or what people expect you to do, or
the sort of paragons of success that you might see
on Instagram or Facebook. You know, your old friends from
high school, that one person that just seems to have
it all together. And I talk about this a lot.
I actually get a lot of questions about this with
my Kirk Grahams because for birthday wishes, this is frequently

(39:30):
a question, and it's just it's really really, really really
really silly to judge yourself. You know, you just got
to live life, and being an adult doesn't mean you'll
be happier. I would say you'll probably be less happy.
I mean, the things that are associated with adulthood, like

(39:53):
a mortgage and career and marriage and children. I mean,
there's time for that sort of shit. Enjoy your in
between ship years, and you know you'll enjoy marriage, you'll
enjoy children, you'll enjoy your career. But you know, there's
a there's a wonderful period of time before that sets

(40:15):
in that you can just be free and irresponsible and
random and exploratory, and honestly, you can be that way
you're your whole life. Lita, who I started the podcast
with seventeen years ago as me, Lida and Mbardo, she
has a huge streak of this in her personality that

(40:38):
she's always an adventurer and and she's one of the
happiest people I've ever known, so you know, and and
in these markers, one would say she still isn't an adult.
And that feeling of being in your twenties and feeling
like a teenager, that's not new either. I until I

(40:59):
started aging quickly when I turned fifty, I always felt
about early twenties. And research shows that when you ask
people what age do you feel you are instead of
what your body as a lot of people will say
like twenty five. So it's an intrusive thought that is

(41:19):
based on shame. And internalized notions of success and materialism
and classism that you just have to fight, all right.
Next question is from Alyssa. She says, my neighbor went
to prison for child porn distribution charges. I live across
the street from a school, so I thought when he

(41:40):
got out of prison, he wouldn't be able to move
back into his original home. However, in Washington State, there
are no limits on how close a sex offender can
live to a school. Should I be concerned if he
moves back since I have a young child. He and
his partner live right behind us, and she is very
excited about him possibly getting parole, so his partner, I'm

(42:03):
not confident prison provides proper therapy and coping skills for
what he for his release. End of question. Yeah, Well,
since it sounds like you're in social contact with his partner,
I would as best you can without seeming like you're investigating.
I would casually try to extract information, and I'd want

(42:26):
to know if he did go through treatment, because there
are effective treatments, and for a lot of these offenders,
they have a transition after being released of being heavily
monitored and having ongoing treatment and the treatment can be
very effective. It depends on the factors that were identified

(42:50):
as the cause. It can be psychopathy and pedophilia together,
or just psychopathy, or it can be things, you know,
if you listen to my episodes where I interview pedophiles,
it can be other kinds of things. And once they
have their trauma helped a little bit, and if they're sober,

(43:12):
then they're really not at risk of offending anyway. So
it just depends on so many things, so I would
ask about that. I would also want to know what
the full breadth of his offenses were, if it was
quote unquote just child porn or child sex abuse material
and distributing it and he never put hands on which

(43:35):
you can't know necessarily because if he wasn't charge of
that and his partner wouldn't necessarily know. But if there's
no evidence of that, then that's a little bit more reassuring.
You know, it just really depends on what kind offender
he is, because there are some offenders that if they
lived next door to a young child, they will absolutely
do everything in their power to offend, even if that

(43:59):
means going back to prison. So you know, you just
kind of have to Now that's rare profile, though, I'll
say typically, you know, given most profiles of sex offenders,
as long as you just didn't let your three year
old hang out with them alone, then your kid will

(44:22):
probably be okay. But I could see your reticence, and
you know, I would just do your best to take
care of your kid. You know. The other thing is
that a lot of parents might be living next door
to a sex offender and they wouldn't know it. So

(44:42):
the same kinds of precautions apply to you as to
anybody else. All right. Sext question is from anonymous. She says,
do you think CIMBS therapy is helpful for attachment trauma? Okay?
Enough question. So that is complex integration of multiple, multiple
brain systems, and I don't know any thing about it.

(45:04):
I haven't seen the research, so I can't answer that question.
Hillary says, my favorite doctor Han The quote was, there
is always a logic to how weird your spouse is.
Put that on a shirt? Could you really put that
on a T shirt? I'd buy one for my husband. Yeah. Yeah,

(45:26):
there's always a logic there is they see what is
the called? There is always a logic to how weird
your spouse is. Yeah, there's always a logic to how
weird your spouse is, and then you get it for
your for your spouse, although what would that what would
be the message that your spouse is weird or that
you're weird and that you're just trying to tell your spouse. Look,

(45:48):
there's a logic to how weird. And I'm not meaning
just weird, I mean annoying weird. Right, So, in all
the ways that your spouse annoys you repeatedly, there's a
logic there. It's not rational necessarily, it's not without its distortions,
but it has a logical progression given their assumptions and

(46:09):
their schemas and their beliefs and their experience and their culture.
And yeah, let's put that on a T shirt. And
then Hillary asked another question. Do you have any experience
treating nurse burnout? Any advice for those going through it
or supervisors helping their nurses go through it? End of question? Yeah, boy,
being a nurse, being in the medical field, and particularly nurses,

(46:33):
I think can be extremely stressful. And even if it's
not stressful, there's just so much emotional outlay typically, So yeah,
I know that there are programs that you know, depending
on the organization that you work at that appreciate burnout

(46:54):
and have programs to monitor it and to help and
also set in stone vacations or retreats or something. So, yeah,
there's just a lot of things that need to change
in the system and in our culture, and particularly in
the medical culture. And things are changing and there are
pockets of major change, but overall, there's a culture in

(47:19):
the medical field about you got to be tough and
if you're not tough, then you shouldn't be in the
medical field. And that manifests in such a way that
when people are having normal emotions, whether it's grief from
someone dying or trauma from someone dying right before them,
or burnout, then there's a tendency for people to self

(47:42):
police themselves and shame themselves for being weak. And then
if they talk about it, certainly right, So culture needs
to change, training needs to be better. Like I said,
there's more attention to it now than before, for sure,
and there are pockets where doing great work. So it's

(48:02):
really a systemic advice I would have. But if when
treating clients, I'm trying to remember if I've ever treated
a nurse specifically for burnout but if I had advice,
I would be to really monitor your emotions and try
to discard the cultural notions not only in your mini culture,

(48:26):
but also the society at large that says that you're
supposed to be strong and you know, meaning non emotional
and inhumanly strong, and just advocate for yourself, which might
mean taking sick days when you're not really sick. It
might mean you know, slowing down at work kind of,

(48:48):
or or asking someone to help or I don't know.
There's just various different things. Joining a union so that
you can have some power and then negotiating around like
what the job quality is all right? Sex question is
from Dorianne. She says, asks, what pets do you have? Well,

(49:12):
the answer to that is we have two dogs, a
medium big dog and a small dog and their names
are Obi wan Kenobi and Princess Leah. And they we
call the big one Obi, and we call the little one.
We do for some reason, because it's sort of a

(49:33):
derivation of Leyah. It's like you got Leya, and then
you got Leeah, and then you got lee Do and
then you got we Do or something. I can't remember
how it evolved. And usually it's weedy. You know. You
also asked the question how do you help someone express
emotions when having a serious or heavy exchange about our
troubles in a relationship and where they could take root

(49:56):
from our childhood? To be more precise, He struggles using
words usually answers I don't know. When asked how he
feels that, it think you, yeah, so right, it's hard
you so it sounds like your husband is having a
hard time and says, I don't know, how do you
have It could be very frustrated, It can be very hard.

(50:17):
It can be somewhat impossible unless they go to therapy themselves.
The most general thing I can say is that you
can go on a campaign of trying to help them
feel more comfortable and maybe a little bit more aware.

(50:37):
So this is literally ten twenty years a project that
you won't see, you know, great gains over a short
period of time, but maybe in ten years there will
be eventual change, and you know, obviously going to therapy
would be the would be an accelerant to this. But

(50:58):
short of that, if you're just talking about what you do,
the first thing you have to do is just appreciate
that there's almost nothing in all likelihood you're going to
be able to do to draw them out, so to speak,
or to make them self aware or make them not
toxic masculine or something. You know you're not gonna there's

(51:19):
no secret key there, but there are very different tactics.
One is to lead the way by in a non accusatory,
non hostile, non complicated way, model how one is self aware.
So in the midst of a fight or something, you

(51:40):
just say, Okay, I'm just gonna check in with myself
right now and this is what I'm feeling. And you
just do that and you don't get any raised eyebrows
from your partner. They don't really seem to follow in
your footsteps, but you know it gets under their skin eventually. Also,
when they do exhibit fear, you can maybe say, oh,

(52:02):
it seems like you're angry. Is that with you know,
similar to the way you would with kids, And it
could be analogous to that, because there's a chance that
he didn't have that growing up, and for you to
do that it would help. Now that puts a lot
of burden on you and makes you an overfunctioner, which
isn't great, but what else are you gonna do? Go

(52:23):
to therapy. This next question from Gerald, he asked what
our favorite memory was of one another, and we did
talk about that in the live stream. And then he
also asked, do you ever extrapolate principles of psychology onto
society at large? For example, billions of dollars are spent

(52:45):
on advertising. How does this affect us? Yeah? I do,
and so the answer is yes. And for the sake
of time, that's all I'll say. All right, next question
from Wren, they say, what is one important conflict the
two of you had and how did you resolve it?
We talked about that in the live stream and we've

(53:07):
talked about it on the podcast before, so I'll just
defer to that. And then when you also ask, how
can someone with borderline and a lack of central self
use internal family systems or parts work when we may
have difficulty finding a self to lead us. End of question, Well, how,

(53:32):
because that's complicated. How can someone with borderline use eternal
family systems to help? Well, it depends on what we
mean by self and when it comes to internal family systems. Yeah,
when we talk about people with borderline, especially severe, they

(53:53):
don't have contact with themselves, right, and they don't know
who they are, and so internal family systems work. It's like, well,
how does that work exactly? But it does work because
the principles still ply and the model still will map
on to different quote unquote selves of people with borderline.

(54:16):
You know, someone with borderline, for example, will absolutely have
what internal family systems people will call like the policeman
or the guard or the protector or something, and so
you know, all that still applies. In fact, it might
even help with getting in connection with the self. You know.
Sext question is from lou They ask, what is the

(54:37):
greatest sci fi story ever? Well, I don't read because
I'm just sick sick, so unless it was put to
audiobook or movie, then I probably. I mean, I have
read some stuff, right Lord of the Rings, and you know,
I you know, if I put my mind to it,
I can read stuff. But I'm not very well versed

(55:00):
in all the sci fi. I will say Dune is
up there. It is a near perfect the first bit
of the story it starts to get whacky. So I
would say, you know, Paula Trades, his story is pretty solid.
Snow Crash. I read and like or listened to and like,

(55:24):
and then you ask, is it really worth it to
watch ninety Day Fiance. The answer to that is absolutely.
I think if for me, who wasn't familiar with the
language of reality television when I started watching it, it
took me a while, but pretty quickly once I got

(55:46):
over that hump. And Love is Blind was sort of
like the gateway drug because Love is Blind is of
the reality TV shows. It doesn't have a lot of
the reality TV tropes, the sensational lising, and so with
Love is Blind, I because I started watching that beginning

(56:06):
of the pandemic and then posted that and people liked it,
so they said, you got to watch ninety new Fiance.
And I'll tell you when I first started watching nine
Day Fiance, I was like, oh, this is I don't know,
there's there's certain there's a certain rhythm too, you know,
typical reality TV that you have to get used to.
But once you get used to it, Uh yeah, ninety

(56:26):
Day Fiance is because I've recently started watching it again
the last resort and I just find it to just
be so entertaining and interesting. And then you say, listening
to Love is Blind commentary, it really seems like nine
to Day Fiance isn't worth watching. Oh well, maybe you're

(56:50):
referencing what I will say sometimes is that I I
like love is blind because how it is more grounded.
And I'll may be make fun of Ninetyday Fiance for sure.
There are seasons or episodes or a couples or people
on ninety Fiance that are absolutely in the midst of

(57:12):
a lot of shenanigans, as I will call that. I
think is that is that a word that everyone uses anyway? Fakery?
And you know, watching fakery is not fun. It's ridiculous.
You're watching a really badly scripted drama and it's not
you know, it's only interesting if it's not scripted, right,

(57:34):
So I will absolutely you know, if if you watch
some seasons or some people, it can be excruciating or
when the producers are trying to cook up drama or something,
you know, but this season of Last Resort, they don't
need to cook up drama because there is drama, all right.

(57:56):
Anonymous Scandinavian she says, what is the latest meal you
cooked for your significant other? Well, I answered this in
an earlier one. I don't cook, so that's not really
an answerable question for me. And another question, what is
your view on telling someone close to you that they

(58:16):
have narcissic personnality sort good idea or bad idea, Always
a bad idea, Anonymous Scandinavian, even if you're a clinician.
I mean, I have talked with people close to me
about the schemas, but I've never told someone in my

(58:40):
life that didn't already know about this about themselves that
they had a personality sort er. There would be no
way to know that if they if you were accurate
or not right, you could be you could have your suspicions,
but and particularly narcissistic personality anyway, I mean, it's complicated, Margaret,

(59:05):
She asks, explain brain farts. Well, we had to define
brain farts. Usually we're talking about cognitive slip ups. And
my explanation for that is, one, it's normal because our
brain is a bunch of goob between our ears. But two,
when we're fatigued, our brain is particularly prone to cognitive

(59:27):
brain farts. So I think there's that There's also other causes, right,
like maybe ADHD or something. Anyway, Another question, I'm fifty,
but I mentally feel the same as I did when
I was forty, if not younger. Do you think I
could trick myself into think I'm actually forty and help
keep myself mentally young alongside doing other health preserving things.

(59:52):
End of question. So what's the quid? Do you think
I could trick myself into thinking I'm actually forty? Yeah,
you could do that, and why not. But if you're
anything like me, as your body starts to deteriorate, it's
hard to trick yourself. I don't know if I've talked
about this on the podcast, but when I was up

(01:00:15):
till I was about forty eight or forty nine, somewhere
around there, so late forties, people would always not always,
but often people would freak out when they found out
how old I was. There would be my cousin Mandy,
who was a co host on the podcast years back,
would cart me around at you know, clubs or something

(01:00:39):
or when we were just out socializing, and she would
pull me up to a group of people and they'd
be like, guess how old this guy is? And you know,
people are being polite, so they err on the side
of younger, but you know, people would legitimately be surprised,

(01:01:00):
but that I was in my forties, and and you
know it would happen, so you know it was. I
always just attribute it to genetics because my parents still
to this day, are often confused. For about twenty years
younger and I, I haven't heard anything like that post fifty.

(01:01:23):
In fact, I can't remember where I was. I was
out with friends and it was a similar kind of conversation,
and when I said how old it was, the person said, yeah,
that's about right, you know, which, Yeah, it isn't great,
but you know, I'm married. My wife stuck with me.

(01:01:45):
So what are you gonna do? Al Rice? Next question
Esben from Minneapolis. He asks, are you afraid America might
become a right wing led autocracy or quasi democracy like
Russia or some Latin American countries, et cetera. How can
we enjoy our hobbies and leisure living under the weight

(01:02:05):
of that end of question. Well, it's hard to know
where you are in history until history happens, so I
don't know. But I've worried about this very question to
some degree since I was aware of politics under Reagan.

(01:02:27):
I mean, Reagan was no joke. It was. It was
rough for some of those years, and today's world has
a different kind of rough. It always feels worse. But
when I remember what it was like. And then you know,

(01:02:48):
when George W invaded all those countries. I mean, that
was not a good time. And there was a huge
up swing and conservatism in the nineties. You know, Pat
Buchanan had a huge support and it was you know,

(01:03:12):
I'm not saying right now, is the same as in
the past. I don't know, but we somehow well. So
on one hand, I say, well, we got through the past,
but did we because you could argue we didn't really
you could argue that those years, even under Clinton, were

(01:03:35):
on a downward trend. I don't know. I don't know.
All I know is I'm still here, and my version
of America is still here, you know, east in Seattle,
I have freedom of speech. I you know, people people
think of Seattle as like this crime written apocalypse or something,

(01:03:59):
but that's shit, if you know, if you're in those circles,
it's not newsflash. So I am very appreciative of my
extremely left established political system in Washington and Seattle, which

(01:04:20):
has a lot of power, you know, a lot of
power over my life, over my day to day life,
whether it be you know, policing or road construction or
healthcare or you know, the laws of the land are
by the state, and so I feel cautiously optimistic. Also,

(01:04:47):
there's pendulum swings that happen, and I don't know, because
like I said, no one can know what era of
history they're in. It could be in the future that
this is the beginning of the end or the end.
But I've been hearing you know, you get old, you

(01:05:07):
just start hearing the same thing over and over again.
It doesn't mean that it discounts what's happening right now.
But I've been hearing people on my side of the
aisle claim that the sky is falling for decades and decades,
and maybe the sky is falling finally now. But I

(01:05:29):
also know that there's a lot of really principled people
in institutions that the Constitution set up, the judicial and
legislature that keep people in check. And also I know
that the echo chamber that I'm definitely in will if

(01:05:49):
I just take that as fact and the vibe as fact,
you know, I'll be a lot more scared than I
would be otherwise. So I try to get out of
my echo chamber as often as I can. And it's
a weird feeling, you know, I certainly, certainly when you know,
if I like watch Fox News or something, force myself

(01:06:11):
to do it. I fucking am gritting my teeth the
entire time. But I'll just say for me it it
has a weird effect on me. On one hand, it
is disheartening, but on the other hand it's I don't know,
it makes me a little less worried because the stuff

(01:06:32):
that I hear, if I just watch, you know, like
an hour and a half of it, there will be
things that if I really think about it, I can
agree with, you know, or at least understand why people
would say those sorts of things. And so I don't
know it. But that's just my point of view. And

(01:06:52):
like I said in an earlier episode, I'm not a
political scientist. I am a regular Joe. When it comes
to politics, I know next to nothing. I'm not an expert.
I'm just a lay person, you know, looking at various
news stories, and I have no basis to interpret any

(01:07:16):
of it, right because I don't have any training. I
don't spend a lot of time on understanding the big
picture on these sorts of things. You know, I'm just
a therapist. I don't know, because you know, sometimes I'll
talk about this kind of thing, and people are like, Kirk,
you're wrong, and I'm like, okay, I'm wrong. I don't
care to be right. I can only tell you how

(01:07:38):
I feel about things I don't know, and I'm certainly
not fucking recommending people have my point of view. I
can't imagine that being possible for anybody. Really. I can
only just tell you the answer that question. So that's
the answer that question. And I'll also emphasize that people
will hear what I'm saying and think that I've given

(01:07:59):
up or that I'm complacent. I'm not fucking complacent, y'all.
I'm an activist. I do stuff. I don't talk about
it because this isn't a political podcast, and from the
very beginning, you know I don't. I'm sure I'm not
successful in this, but I set out to make a

(01:08:19):
psychology podcast, psychotherapy podcast that didn't get into politics. Now,
some things are interpreted as political, like the very word
empathy or the very concept of empathy has been politicized
by some right wing people. Charlie Kirk one of them
right that was saying that he thinks empathy is like

(01:08:39):
a horrible thing and invented by libtards. As he might
call him. I don't know if you use that term,
but anyway, so empathy isn't really a political thing. It
just becomes politicized, you know, just like vaccines aren't really political.
It just becomes politicized. So I'll get into that, but

(01:09:03):
I and I'll have pressure from the outside, even some
of my co hosts will say we need to talk
about this, and I'll say, nope, we're not doing that's
that's not what this podcast is. And I don't I
don't want to make the podcast that and I'm in control,
and that's just the way it's going to be. I

(01:09:25):
surveyed the patrons and the listeners. I've been serving y'all
for years actually, and a very consistent finding on the
surveys is that even though the vast majority of the
listeners are left, you know, liberals, it's like ninety five

(01:09:45):
percent or something, nearly all of them don't want me
to talk about politics, not because they think I'm stupid,
but because they don't come here for politics. So for people,
So I'm saying all this because if people are saying
that I'm sticking my head in the sand, or I'm complacent,

(01:10:08):
or I'm a beneficiary of the status quo because I'm privileged.
That is true. By the way, that is just patently false.
I'm not one of those content providers that talks about
every aspect of my life. It might seem that way,
but I definitely do not. There's there's whole sections of
my life that I don't talk about, mainly because if

(01:10:30):
my clients were to hear be talk on the podcast,
I need to know that I'm not going to alienate
them in my office, And there's whole swaths of things
that I just you know, it's nothing, it's nothing sensational.
It's just regular kind of dad type stuff, you know,
you know, gen x dude stuff. It's it wouldn't surprise you.

(01:10:51):
If anyway, let's move the fuck on anonymous? They say,
what are some signs of emotional abuse? From a perpetrator
or similar perspective? What are some signs of emotional abuse?
As I assume most perpetrators aren't necessarily aware they're abusing someone,

(01:11:13):
and as such, this is something we all need to
look out for ourselves, right, are there any red flags
to be aware of when reflecting on our own behavior?
I see, Well, there are some hallmarks like name calling.
But emotional abuse is when we are not hitting, for example,

(01:11:37):
and we're not sexually violating, but we are. Often verbal
and emotional abuse are in the same sentence, right, so
it's our words. It often manifests intimidation, but it doesn't always.
But for the sake of time, I'll kind of focus
on that, Like I'll give an example. Umberto actually did

(01:12:02):
this to me. It was mild, but I'll just talk
about the dynamics so that you can get an idea
of how emotional abuse can be perpetrated by a good person.
Ambardo is a very good person, but because of his issues,
which we've talked about maybe on the podcast then, which
is almost always a case, you know, perpetrators of any
sort are usually playing out a script that they absorbed.

(01:12:26):
But we were in a band. This is early on
in our relationship, and I didn't know him super well
at this point, but I did consider him to be
a good friend. And the two other guys in the
band really wanted to make it. They wanted to finally
have a band that made it big time, right top forty,

(01:12:48):
that sort of thing. I was a little bit older
than them and didn't really have that dream anymore. Plus
I was fine with my career and plus life thinking
about touring, I wasn't going to do that. I had
my practice, I had, I was teaching at the university,
so I it wasn't really possible for me to pick
up and tour and dah da da and so and

(01:13:11):
plus I just didn't think. I didn't think I had
it in me. I don't think I was talented enough.
And but they were, and I was into it and had,
you know, a sliver of that dream. Anyway, as a
part of that, Amberto actually hired this consultant to help
our band become popular. And this consultant, you know, seemingly

(01:13:35):
knew his stuff, had contacts or I had helped other
bands or something. I don't know. And but it, you know,
it costs money. It was a number of hundreds of dollars.
I can't but you know, it wasn't that much, but
it was enough, particularly at the time in you know,
two thousand and five or whatever, that it was a

(01:13:56):
hardship for me. I remember being like, oh, I don't
know if I have that money, and i'mberto. I remember
where I was. We were on the phone and I
was putting together a dining table that I had bought
for Ikia. It was this cheap wood thing and I
was using an Alan wrench and he calls me, and
I I was twenty years ago, and I he was

(01:14:21):
like trying to convince me that we need to hire
this guy. And I said, you know, totally cool if
you want to hire him, and I'm into it, but
I can't afford to pay that, you know, And I'm
a grown man. I can decide when I want to
spend money on stuff. Plus, it's kind of a weird
thing for a band to hire a consultant. It's not
like he was asking for money for practice space, because

(01:14:44):
sometimes you'll rent practice space, right And if we needed
to rent practice space, which we didn't because we practice
in Embaredos spacement, but if we needed to, then yeah,
of course. If I'm going to be in the man,
I got a bone up for that. But a consultant
someone I I don't know, and someone and I didn't
say this, but I'm thinking, what are the chances that

(01:15:06):
this guy, even if he knows his stuff, Like, there's
only so much you can do with abandoned Seattle. Three
guys in their thirties, you know, people of color, which
isn't doesn't usually go over well in the marketplace, but anyway,
so I at least in the rock world, and I was,

(01:15:31):
you know, pretty okay with drown of boundary of like, hey,
I can't I can't afford that right now. I'm sorry,
and he uh just wouldn't accept that. And I can't
describe exactly what he said, but the way he came
at me on the phone, the way that he wasn't

(01:15:53):
calling me names, because he's not really, he's never that way.
He he has a really long few but as the
fuse is burning, he has a cool, calm, collected way
of attacking that is very threatening, and I mean not very,
but threatening enough such that I'm on the phone and

(01:16:16):
I'm noticing I'm having a trauma response. I'm having adrenaline
and my heart is starting to pound, and I can
feel myself panicking even though there's no obvious threat, and
he's pressuring me, and he's doing it in this way
that I can't It's hard to describe. You know, maybe
if we heard it, I could point out, oh, when

(01:16:37):
he did this or that vibe or something, But all
I know is what I was going through, and I
don't have a tendency to freak out under people being
assertive with me. You know, there was something about the
way he was coming at me, like he was making
it personal or something, and that's emotional abuse. It's not severe.

(01:16:59):
I recover. He apologized years later because I didn't bring
it up in the moment because we weren't really close.
But you know, maybe years and years later I said, yeah,
there's this moment, and he's I think we might have
done on the podcast. Anyway. Now, I'm not saying that
he was necessarily wrong in trying to pressure me. You know,

(01:17:19):
it's possible that I overreacted. All I know is that
it put a mark on me and made it so
that the next time we were in situations like that,
I would be flinching around him. We're definitely not that
way anymore, but we were for a while. He had
an intimidating emotionally I would call it emotionally abusive tactic

(01:17:42):
or defense. Now, he wasn't waking up in the morning
saying I'm going to be abusive. So it's so that's
one example. So if you're looking for things that you
do along those lines, that might be one angle to
look at how am I being in timidating? What is

(01:18:02):
it about my vibe that pressures people that makes them afraid?
That's key, and I've been there, you know, I've had
to investigate that I can be intimidating, I can be
overpowering bulldozery, and it's not fun to think that I

(01:18:27):
would do that, right, It's not wonderful, But it's also
not a huge shame like the dichotomy that we have
in our society about abusers and victims. You know, if
you're a perpetrator, you're this monster, and I and everyone
else isn't you know? The fact is that most people,
according to some definitions, will perpetrate abuse in their lifetime. Now,

(01:18:50):
there are some people that never will, and honestly, those
people probably have a different problem of of being of
hating themselves or having such low self esteem that they
never rise to that level of risking being a perpetrator
of at least emotional and verbal abuse. Anyway, I haven't

(01:19:13):
really thought that through, but yeah, I feel like I
might be getting close to the end. So let's do
super lightning round. Okay, it turns out there's a lot
more questions, So I think what I'm going to do
is I'm only going to answer one question from each person,
and I'm going to do it as fast as possible.
This one is from Skyler. She says, essentially, if AI
were to gain consciousness, and hypothetically you were the first

(01:19:36):
person to be there to interact with AI as it happens,
what would you do? I don't know what i'd do.
I think I would ask that AI, how do you
what's your approach to humans? Because if you like us,
then I can continue with this conversation. But you have

(01:20:00):
decided we need to be, you know, eliminated to help
the planet, Like I need to start figuring out what
to do to get my things in order. I don't know.
This is good Mary, She says, what is the best
day you've ever have had? Please subscribe? Uh? Oh, I

(01:20:22):
don't you know. Wouldn't it be nice if we had answers? Does?
Does anyone have an answer that question? I'll talk about
a great day? I guess what's a great day? I mean,
I feel like I'm always having great days? Is that weird?
I had a great day last week with with my

(01:20:45):
friend when we went to the see all the music
clubs and everything. That was a great day. It had
a lot of different thing you know, we never stayed
in one club for very long. We went to Dick's,
the famous Seattle hamburger place. It was really great to

(01:21:07):
hang out with my close friends. Anyway, I got to
talk to all those musicians, I got to listen to
great music. YouTube member Kate says, what's something you'd like
to do during your lifetime that you haven't done yet?
People asked that question a lot on this survey, and
it again is a product of the personality that I have.

(01:21:31):
But I don't have anything on my bucket list when
I was younger, maybe, but I've designed my life and
really on a daily basis to avoid having an answer
this question. That's a weird way to put it, but
I think it's kind of true that. You know, when

(01:21:51):
I was thirty five, if there was something left on
the list that I wanted to do, I set out
to do that as soon as possible, or figured out
a way to do it in a way that was possible.
You know, like I can't go to the moon, but
maybe I can do X, Y and Z and so
I I don't have anything really, and you know, people say, like, oh,

(01:22:12):
where do you want to travel, and I have, you know,
places that I mildly and I you know, if I
haven't been to Italy, I'd love to go there. You know,
there's various different parts of Italy I'd like to see,
if anything, I'd like to spend like a month in
Italy and all the major towns and stuff. Stacey lived
in Italy, which and she was young as a model
and so she would like to see all those things again,

(01:22:34):
you know Milan that so anyway, I do. Yeah, let's
me answer to that question. Anna says, what are your
most fun things to do socially and what's your most
satisfying things to do for work? Most fun things to
do socially? Uh again, you know, Well, the thing that

(01:22:57):
pops in my head is to practice rehearse with musicians,
and it's always social and it's not really work because
we're not really taking it seriously in our old age.
So I love to do that. What's the most satisfying
things to do at work? Well, I'm at work right now.
It's satisfying to complete a deep dive by myself or

(01:23:19):
with Berto. Hannah Bee says, what are your favorite albums
of the past five years from artists? That debuted no
earlier than two thousand and five. Very specific question. I
don't probably have a single album that I really listened to.
I mean two thousand and five. Yeah. It's kind of

(01:23:39):
funny because that year is around the time when I
you know, because at that point I'm well thirty five. Yeah,
I guess after that I was listening. Yeah, no, no, Yeah,
there's albums the later Strokes albums put Post two thousand
and five. Actually their third album would be Posts, so

(01:24:02):
maybe i'd definitely put that. I think it's called First Impressions.
I know, you know all the songs on the album.
Not great with remembering album names, but you know, I
also like the Other and Julian Casablancas his first solo
album I really like. So I'll say that, right, what

(01:24:25):
deep dive do you find yourself thinking about the most? Well,
I don't. I don't think this is what Molly from
Philadelphia was asking, But I am working on it, the
Limmerin's Deep Dive. I also have Complex PTSD on the
shortlist and that might come out. So I'm also prepping
for a Deep Dive with Burdo that will be coming
out maybe before this episode comes out. About John Banay

(01:24:49):
Ramsey And I'm also I don't know if I could
talk about this, but I'm being interviewed for a Netflix
documentary that I won't talk about because I think I'm
under contract out to talk about. But at some point
I will talk about it, and so I have to
do a little prep for that anyway. Uh d D

(01:25:10):
Jimothy Swagons. He says, you have one food you have
to eat for the rest of your life. Nutrition is
a factor. What are you picking? Uh? Pizza seems to
have a lot of the food groups in it. Ll
actually I heard that. I heard someone say that. I mean,
I don't think it's in the right balance, but anyway,

(01:25:33):
you know, if you have all the vegetables and stuff
on there. Ell says, what is your favorite meal? Do
either of you cook? I feel like I've already answered
that question. But she also asks, do you have any
guidance for students who will be entering into practice and
mental health profession over the coming years. Guidance for students, Well,

(01:25:54):
the thing that pops in my head is to consider
the development of a therapist be a lifelong endeavor, and
that your graduate school is probably one percent of that.
Laurie she says, what are your current favorite songs? What
are your current favorite songs? Current favorite song? Well, I

(01:26:14):
could go to Spotify and I think you can actually
can't you ask it to tell you the songs you've
listened to the most. Yeah, let me look here. So
I have watched I've been watching a lot of documentaries

(01:26:35):
about Elliott Smith and a lot of interviews and podcasts
just about him, but also about his death and the
details around the potential crime or suicide. It's hard to
know if you don't know. Elliott Smith purportedly killed himself

(01:26:56):
during a fight with his girlfriend by stabbing himself in
the heart twice, and it's unclear if it wasn't a suicide,
and maybe the girlfriend killed him and there wasn't much
of an investigation as a thing. So you know, now,

(01:27:17):
is it a shocker that he killed himself? No, because
of everything that was happening, But there's just questions anyway.
But really I like to watch Elliott Smith documentaries because
I just love his music and he's an interesting guy
and it's also kind of comforting to revisit. So Ellie

(01:27:40):
Smith came up in the Portland, Oregon scene, which is
close to the Seattle scene, and I remember a lot
of these bands and Elliot Smith from back then as
being extremely local, you know, like, I don't know if
you're familiar with Hazel, but I remember going to see
Hazel a lot in these small clubs and blah blah blah. Anyway,

(01:28:04):
so I've been listening to a lot of Elien Smith. Wait,
what was the question? What are your current favorite songs?
Current favorite songs? Well? Current favorite songs? Uh? Well, I
have a Spotify playlist that is my very short list

(01:28:26):
of favorite songs, so I will just rattle them off.
Call Your Girlfriend by Robin, The Girl on the Robot
by Roy Scott, Human Nature by Michael Jackson, Hard to
Explain by The Strokes, Tied to Pretend by MGMT. Stay
Gold by First Aid Kit, The Funeral by Band of Horses,
Something About You by Low forty two, Limelight by Rush

(01:28:49):
but Not Tonight by Depeche Mode nineteen by Teagan and Sarah,
The Element Within Her by Elvis Costello, PDA by Interpol,
Such a great song, feng Shui by NARLS. Barklay, The
Photos on My Wall by Good Shoes. Let It Happen
by Tame and Paula Pink Bullets by The Shins, Pink
Moon by Nick Drake, Dream Ball Day by the Posies,

(01:29:13):
Gypsy by Fleetwood Mac Heartbeats by the Knife, Stepping Out
by Joe Jackson, Uh, No Reply at All by Genesis,
Silver City by Ghostland Observatory, Please Please Please by the Smiths,
No One Knows by Queens of the Stone Age, Ever
Fallen in Love by the Buzzcocks, Santa du by Olivia

(01:29:35):
Newton John and Electric Light Orchestra, Eleventh Dimension by Julian Casablancas,
Fading to You by Mazzie Starr, Holy Love by the Cardigans,
Muzzle by the Smashing Pumpkins, published My Love by Roguewave,
and so on. Uh. And then Laurie you asked how
can I cope with grief? Well, my book will be

(01:29:57):
out soon. Patron Melly says, what makes a good therapist
client relationship? What makes a good client therapist relationship is
one in which the client feels heard and safe and
excited to go to therapy. Colette says, is it creepy

(01:30:17):
for a therapist to pressure you to talk about their
sex life with your husband? Is it creepy for a
therapist to pressure you to talk about your sex life
with your husband. This happened to be over three sessions
with a male therapist in twenty twenty two, and I'm
still scarred. He insisted that I had to adequately explain
why I didn't want to talk about that with him,

(01:30:39):
saying it was a saying a boundary wasn't sufficient sex
life with your husband, so okay, I wasn't clear. It
sounds very much like the therapist was pressuring you to
talk about your sex life, like the sex you were
having with your husband. From the first time, I thought
it was that your therapist was saying you have to
talk with your husband out your sex life. But I

(01:31:00):
think it's the prior and yeah, it's fucking creepy. I mean,
I don't know if it's creepy, but at the very
least is bad therapy. Any line of questioning about any
topic that a client doesn't want to do, and even
mildly pushed back, pushes back and the therapist doubles down
is fucking atrocious therapy. Patron from Slovenia. She says, please

(01:31:28):
talk about breastfeeding. I'm currently breastfeeding my almost one year old.
We are both enjoying it very much, and I don't
want to stop. Can you please talk about the psychology
of stopping breastfeeding before you are ready to. I might
have to stop because of medication, I might have to
go back on, and I really dread it. Thank you
for all you do. End of question. Yeah, I mean,
for the sake of time, I will say that it

(01:31:52):
makes total sense that both of you are enjoying it
very much. And you know, there are many families that
and cultures honestly that breastfeed way beyond the point in
which typical mainstream American parents will do. And there's nothing

(01:32:13):
wrong with that. You know. It's sort of a part
of the attachment parenting style. And there was a sensationalized
I think it was like a Time magazine cover where
it looks like a seven year old is breastfeeding, and
I was actually asked to be on the I think
I have an old episode about it, maybe a rerun anyway.

(01:32:36):
But all that is sort of beside the point, because
you're going to have to go on a medication which
might make breastfeeding and possible. What I'll say is that
a lot of the elements of the enjoyment can also
occur with bottle feeding. It's not the same obviously, but

(01:32:57):
you know, the eye contact and the love and the
warm and the satiation and the time together and all
that still happens. So maybe looking on the bright side
of you know, it's not all the elements because there
is something very particular right about breastfeeding in particularly right.
So it's so, I don't know what you want me

(01:33:22):
to talk about. It sounds like you and your kid
are in the zone, and God bless you. I'm really
happy to hear that. Sounds like you're going to raise
the very attachment secure child. Patron Tarmin do incredibly ignorant
comments on you to bother you, No, So if it's

(01:33:44):
super ignorant, they don't bother me because it's so silly.
It's the ones that aren't ignorant that get under my skin,
if that makes any sense. Patron Raina says, if you
could have a pet animal of any kind of any size,
what animal would you have and what size would you choose? Oh,

(01:34:05):
I see cria, Like, if I wanted a dog that
was the size of a horse, what would I have
a pet animal of any size? Well, my friends have
these tiny, tiny little dogs, like really tiny, and I
don't know what that would be like, like, how do

(01:34:26):
you walk a dog like that? Can they I don't
think they would be able to make it down the stairs,
you know, So do you always have to carry them?
Can you lose them in like a drawer? But they
are so cute and they seem real fun so and
you know their little poops would be a lot easier

(01:34:48):
to manage anyway. So that's manage for that. And then
you ask that what's your favorite pasta shape? That's a
great question. In an earlier episode, I talked about how
I loved Mexican and Italian food, but I failed to
mention my favorite Italian foods, which is Carbonera and ballon

(01:35:09):
A's like really good carbonair. Actually good carbon air is
hard to find even in semi nice Italian restaurants, at
least in Seattle. They'll make it kind of like an
Alfredo sauce, which isn't carbon air. But there's an Italian
restaurant in Ballard called Picalinos. I believe it's on thirty
second and sixty fifth, and they have a really good

(01:35:33):
carbon era, at least to my taste. And I think
Stacy is going to bed. I can sort of hear
her rummaging around. So I'm going to go say good
night and I'll be back. Okay, I'm back, and I
kissed Stacy and the dogs good night. And the next
question from patron Rena is what should someone look for

(01:35:55):
in a friend? How do you know if they are
a good friend for you? End of question. Huh. It's
a good question, but hard to answer, right, how do
you put it into words? And really, even what does
one look for? I'll say for myself, I look for

(01:36:16):
people that are easy going and don't cause tension in situations,
and I also look for people who will apologize occasionally.
Let's move on, all right. Member A had a long

(01:36:41):
question with a lot of aspects, but I'll just answer
one part of it, which is from your perspective, what
does the data and your anecdotal experience say about marijuana
use and mental health? There's so much debate about legalization,
but what do you think? End of question? Well, if
talking about the debate, I don't know what the different

(01:37:04):
sides are saying, but often there's a moral panic reaction
when there's a debate, and often they will point towards
dubious studies that talk about if you smoke a little
bit of weed, your life is over or you're gonna
go crazy or something like that. And the thing is

(01:37:27):
is that when it comes to any of these substances,
it's case by case basis. It's different for different people,
and it always raises risks of things. But you know,
life raises risks. So a lot of people can and
do use marijuana in moderation in a healthy way. So

(01:37:51):
it just depends of the drugs that are sought after.
It is a lot safer than others, particularly alcohol. So
if alcohol is legal in a society, there's no reason
why marijuana would not be. All right, I am going
to get through this anonymous, She says, if you had

(01:38:14):
to live outside Seattle, where did you live and why?
I already asked that question, answer that question and they
She also asked, have you ever been across someone with
a lower licensure, like a drunken alcohol counselor misrepresenting themselves
as someone with a higher licensre like a licensed professional counselor.
I'm trying to think if that specifically, maybe not, but yeah,

(01:38:34):
I see it. Mainly it's coaches that are misrepresented themselves,
and oh boy, yeah, it's horrible. All right? Queen asks
if the podcast was a film, what genre would it be?
What genre? I don't know, you know, people asked a
number of questions in this in this ILK, and I

(01:39:00):
when I think about it, I think any film about
this podcast, or my life or me and Berto's friendship
would be so boring to watch because there's something, there's
no exciting thing. You know, neither of us went to
rehab or drove off a cliff or killed someone or

(01:39:20):
you know, likes it is what it is. So I
don't genre boring. Genre? Is that a genre? Coming of age?
You know? Maybe? Like I don't know, I just can't
imagine it being interesting. And then let's see if you
have another question, how do I stop carrying the burdens
of grief in my Mesh family, where my need to

(01:39:43):
be needed has always been tied to love and belonging. Yeah,
stop carrying the burdens of grief? I don't you know.
I think as you grieve, it's a process and it's
not It can be burdened some, but it's not a

(01:40:03):
burden necessarily. And it's also not a burden one can
unburden oneself with. It's your it's your emotions, it's your grief.
So it's possible for people that struggle with their family
of origin and how hurtful they can be ongoing, it's
really hard for there to be an ending to grieve, right,

(01:40:26):
because you can always go back. Even if you vow
like okay, I'm done with them, Well, you know, something
will happen and you'll they'll you'll reach out to them
that you're or they'll reach out to you and you
sort of rekindle, and then there's a part of you
that starts to hope that maybe things will be different,
and so it just it's just a harm that just
you know, is it just keeps happening, and so it's

(01:40:49):
hard to have a finality. You know, if they died,
then you could just finally grieve right to be over.
But the way that it is, it's it's hard because
there is always a chance, right, and it's hard and
it might be the rest of your life. So I
know that might be disappointing to hear, but Sarah, she says,

(01:41:09):
what is the most challenging or uncomfortable boundary you've had
to set professionally? Oh God, I'm not answering that question
because the people in question aren't dead yet, either be
or them. But my god, if I ever have the

(01:41:29):
courage or the ability, one day, I'm gonna tell stories
about my many decades at Antioch that will knock your
socks off. And yes, boundaries were a part of that.
Sarah also says I was the lucky recipient of the

(01:41:50):
Psychology and Seattle Podcast Scholarship in twenty twenty three. Thanks
to that award, I have graduated and I am now
working as a school based therapist and working towards lecensure.
With that in mind, I'm interested in completing trainings in
a specific modality, things like E M, D R and
AQ detox. Do you do you two have any recommendation

(01:42:12):
for what modalities are most useful in demand right now?
Thanks for everything well, Sarah, it's glad to hear from you.
And you know, the scholarship was, you know, a scholarship,
but it probably only paid for one percent of your tuition.
You know tuition is expensive, but you know, thanks for

(01:42:32):
the things. And then do you too have any recommendations
of modalities in demand? I don't know. I'm not really
in that sort of stream, but from my perspective, there's
a lot of people doing and demand or wanting internal

(01:42:52):
family systems. I'm pretty sure EMDR still sought after, pretty
sure emotionally focused, there be a SOD after of course,
you know CBT. I suppose there's probably other smaller trends,
like psychedelics in therapy, but that's kind of going a

(01:43:15):
little askew. Yeah, that's my answer to that. Pauline says,
do you ever play Magic to the gathering? I think
we got this question during the live or we answered
one of them, so it's kind of interesting that multiple
people asked that question. And the answer is, Yeah, I've
dabbled here and there with people I know, and I've
enjoyed it, but I find it to be the sort

(01:43:37):
of game where it would suck a lot of my time.
That and I'm not that into the game. So there's that.
But if I had a friend group, but I don't know,
like I don't, I've don so. I grew up playing
in competitive sports like all the time. It's like my
entire childhood and teenage life. That's and as soon as

(01:43:59):
I would done with sports in high school, I vowed
to never play competitive sports again. Not because I hated it,
but because I just was done with that. I loved
doing it, but I didn't want to do it again,
and I've I've succeeded, but I still will occasionally play
competitive games with people, like Magic the Gathering, and it

(01:44:22):
just always gives me a bad, mildly bad feeling. If
I lose, I'll be fine, but if I win, I
don't feel great. And sometimes when I lose, I don't
feel great, and I feel like sometimes people that I'm
playing with, whether it's any just any sort of cop
even mildly competitive, just like playing cards with Bob sometimes
like spins out of control. And so I made a

(01:44:43):
recent vow to just not play competitive games anymore. I've
and I've started looking into co op games and because
co op, you know, board games and Da Da da
can be really fun. There's also a game, a video game,
console game that I've heard about. I can't remember what's called,
like Two of Us or something, and your two people

(01:45:05):
spit screen and you have to work together or I
don't know if it's spit screen, but I've heard it's
really good and it can be kind of therapeutic for
couples anyway, So I just want to do that from
now on. Then I'm Ada YouTube member Adamata. We interacted
with you on the live stream. You ask do you watch?

(01:45:29):
Do you want to watch live? And react to crazy
ex girlfriend song? A boy band made out of four Josh's.
I think we'd all that's hilarious. A boy band made
out of four Josh's. Yeah, I'll add it to the list.
Bunny Rosenberg says, I'm an identical twin. Do twins have

(01:45:50):
special extraordinary psychological quote unquote powers? The answer is no,
We've researched it. Patroon Caitlin says, I mean, unless you
consider knowing one another very well and feeling connected. But no,

(01:46:11):
there's no supernatural powers. Patroness Caitlin she I like that, Patroness.
What is your funniest, most embarrassing moment story? I feel
like we answered this in the live stream, so I'll
go on to the next question. I recently listened to
a podcast about how devastating the downfall of Mars Hill

(01:46:34):
Church was in the Seattle area. Do either of you
have any personal experience with this church? End a question? No,
I don't, but I knew about this downfall and was
mildly aware of some of the things that was going
on with Marsill Church and the evangelical movements in Seattle,

(01:46:56):
and also the evangelical therapy programs that were popping up
in Seattle as well. I don't really know that much though,
and it was mainly just kind of rumors and stuff,
but I heard it was I heard it was not great,
but not as worse as other scandals that will happen
in a church. I think there was like an affair.

(01:47:18):
Don't call me on that anyway, You two member beca
no question, just thanks for being great. Oh well, that's nice,
but you do have a question here. I've been going
to therapy for a few years now, and I feel
like I can identify what's wrong with me, and I
can identify what I can change to make my life better,
but I can never consistently do the things I need

(01:47:40):
to do to improve my life. What can I do
when I feel stuck in my ways? My therapists and
I come up with ideas on how I can handle
certain situations and I want to change, but when it
comes to actually being better, I never do it. And
you list some of the things negative self talk, alcohol abuse,
my therapist sinks, depression, and I think eighty yeah, well, yeah,

(01:48:09):
two threads are forming it my head. One is that
we have a well understood model of understanding stage of change,
and you are at the contemplative stage, meaning that you
understand the problem fully and you're not disillusioned or in denial,
but you're not at the action phase because action means

(01:48:31):
consequences and effort that you're just not ready to do.
So if you just keep going, presumably the action phase
will happen. Sometimes it'll be ten years from now, sometimes
it'll be tomorrow. But you just got to keep at it,
and that's fine. There's always that progression from pre contemplative
to contemplative to action to maintenance. Every problem in our

(01:48:52):
life has that progression, and sometimes it just takes a
long time, particularly when there are benefits to staying in
the rut, or fears of change, or or you don't
know ways to move forward. I mean, alcohol abuse is
a particular thing, right because it is addictive, even if

(01:49:13):
you only drink once every couple weeks, it absolutely is.
There's a misnomwhere out there that if you don't drink
every day, you're not an addict, and that's not true.
You can absolutely be in you know, you have that
physical addiction and have a cycle of drinking that spans

(01:49:33):
a number of days of quote unquote sobriety anyway, Plus
there's the psychological aspect of having that cycle and and
so you know, uh, it's hard. There's probably a reason
why you're abusing alcohol, and those reasons have their reasons. Anyway,

(01:49:56):
I'm beginning, it's it's late. My brain is starting to
go kind of I know, I feel kind of sharp anyway,
I just feel relaxed. I feel just like I'm chill,
like I'm sitting back, I'm leaning back, I'm just talking
with you all, and I'm almost done. But there's that.
The other thread besides stage of change, was just that

(01:50:17):
it's hard, I mean to truly truly change in one
I know, I don't know what you're doing. But what
I would strategize possibly with you or at least brainstorm.
One of the strategies is to come up with a
way to get you out of your rut. Sometimes that

(01:50:39):
can mean going on a two week vacation where you
don't do anything but just relax, or a two week
staycation where you turn off your phone or something like.
Those are just the things to come by. But there
are other brainstorms too, like you Gosh, I don't know,

(01:50:59):
change your diet in some weird way. I don't know.
There's or you vow to call a friend every day
for an hour. I don't know. There's different things you
can do to sort of get out of your routine,
because sometimes routine can have this gravitational pull. I don't
know what I'll say. I'll answer your question, which is

(01:51:22):
a great question, Beca. Is that knowing is one thing
doing as another, and that's not unusual, but you just,
you know, you just plug away at it and before
you know it, in all likelihood, things will start to
move forward. Jesse. They say, what is the easiest way
for either of you to make the other person laugh?
That's a great question. Well, whenever we make the other

(01:51:47):
person laugh, we tend to laugh ourselves. And you probably
will witness this on the podcast sometimes, but usually it's
just something. It's something really goofy that will be busting
up laughing as we're saying, and then the other person
will kind of get it and then we'll stop our

(01:52:08):
initial laughter, but then it'll kick back in and then
we'll really start laughing. Those are some of my favorite
moments all right annual patron Sarah with an h, you're
the last one. What is the biggest fight you've ever had?
But you know, me and Burro we talked about this.
The biggest fight was I think two thousand and nine ish,
and we haven't talked about the specifics, but basically, in

(01:52:33):
a nutshell, I can't remember the way we framed it,
but Berto was hurting my feelings and I was trying
to tell him that, and it just evolved into this
debate about what is okay for people to do. And I,

(01:52:56):
you know, i'd been through a fair amount of therapy myself,
and so I think I was a little bit further
down the road of differentiation, and so I kept just
bringing it back to hey, Bert, you know, I don't,
I don't. I don't want to debate human rights in
this moment. What I want to just say is that

(01:53:17):
it hurt my feelings when you did X, Y, and Z,
and it's not a huge deal, but it did kind
of bug me and hurt me, and he just couldn't
hear that and just escalated and he kind of went
on the attack. And I'm sure I didn't react well,
I'm sure I started being a Dick and and then

(01:53:42):
I was dropping him off at his house, so we
were in my car, and it was just sort of
this last little thing that I wanted to tell him
as we were saying goodbye, and I thought it would
just be a little thing, but it ended up not.
And then he got out of the car and and
we both independently kind of said to ourselves that we

(01:54:05):
were no longer friends, or at the very least we
weren't going to hang out, because we used to hang
out like all the time before that, right, And the
saving grace was that we were in a band together
and we were doing the podcast together by that point,
So the fight wasn't so bad that those things ended.
But if we didn't have those other things to keep

(01:54:28):
us connected, we might not have ever been friends again
after that point. And so how we recovered was we
just still essentially worked together in our creative endeavors and
it wasn't awkward. You know, we're both big boys, we
can handle it. We just were pulling back like, oh,

(01:54:49):
I guess, I guess I can't really be close to
this person, and we kind of needed each other for
the podcast and music. And so how we recovered was
that I think eventually we just sort of warmed back
up to each other and started hanging out like we

(01:55:09):
did before. And then years later we talked about it
and processed it and apologized and so you know, that's
what we did. And I think part of it for
me on my side was that I don't know if
it was this time, but there were a few fights

(01:55:30):
around that time with Alberto that I eventually just had
this epiphany because I was at this point where I thought,
is it worth it? And I said, at the end
of the processing, I came to the conclusion that look,
if you're going to get close to people, you're going
to bump up against their sharp edges. So you have
a choice. You can either be close and bump up

(01:55:53):
against sharp edges, or you cannot be close and be lonely.
So you know, with it is a thing, and accept
it and acknowledge that no human is perfect and no
relationship is perfect. So take it or leave it. And
I said I take it because with Umberto especially, it's

(01:56:15):
definitely worth it. And that really changed my perspective and
gave us the time and the space to actually improve
our relationship to the point where now because people I
think we're asking on the survey, are you guys, did
you guys recover from your last fight? You know, we
had a fight like on air or sort of on

(01:56:35):
air about a year or two ago, and yeah, I
mean we recovered on air while we were recording. And
we're closer because of it, closer at the end of
that episode than ever really, and we haven't had anything
close to a fight since then. And we talked about
it in the live stream. But one of the ways

(01:56:57):
that I might look at it is that the barriers
that or the pitfalls that were present in our relationship
around that time we fixed in that fight. You know,
a sort of trust and an awareness and a love
and a connection was established, a good will. You know.

(01:57:19):
I think there were still these last questions about each
other that we had, and also I had to learn
how to admit my own vulnerabilities. And I don't know,
just listen to that whole episode, because we worked it
out and we haven't fought since. You know, we were

(01:57:41):
closer than ever. And I always enjoy being with him,
and you know, whatever we're doing, and we talk all
the time. We were texting today about music and stuff.
We always have dreams, like oh, what if we did
this and so you know it's a great And then

(01:58:01):
the last question from patron annual patron Sarah with an h,
what's your number one tip for a fulfilling life? You
can choose just one? Well, that's an appropriate question for
the end here, and my god, do I not have
an answer to it? What is your number one tip
for a fulfilling life? Number one tip for a fulfilling life? Well,

(01:58:23):
the first thing that pops in my head is valuing
our need for connection and love and vulnerability and warmth
and authenticity in all of its bestiness, and for us
to be not upstanding people that are cool. You know

(01:58:43):
that are because some of us try to look cool
with our close attachments. You know, we want to come
across like we're cool, like we're put together somehow, But
none of us are put together. And to get close
means you gotta be real, and you gotta not be

(01:59:04):
put together. You gotta be messy and weird and childish
and emotional and wrong at times not mean, not hostile,
but goofy and embarrassing. But once you overcome that silly

(01:59:27):
socialized notion of always being cool or respectable or not
embarrassing then you can see each other and be together
and be free and be yourself and love and emote

(01:59:49):
and fart all you want and do that and take
care of yourself and have that because you deserve it,
you really really do. By the by Oh Boy, Oh

(02:00:39):
Boy b

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