October 8, 2025 • 36 mins
Dr Kirk Honda and Humberto Castaneda dive deep into the JonBenet Ramsey story.
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/KIRK to get 10% off your first month.
00:00 Pageant interview
06:36 Ramsey family history
24:18 Check in with yourself
27:35 The Ramsey's maintain their innocence
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October 8, 2025
The Psychology In Seattle Podcast ®
Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
Disclaimer: The content provided is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only. Nothing here constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis, or creates a counselor-client relationship. Topics discussed may generate differing points of view. If you participate (by being a guest, submitting a question, or commenting) you must do so with the knowledge that we cannot control reactions or responses from others, which may not agree with you or feel unfair. Your participation on this site is at your own risk, accepting full responsibility for any liability or harm that may result. Anything you write here may be used for discussion or endorsement of the podcast. Opinions and views expressed by the host and guest hosts are personal views. Although, we take precautions and fact check, they should not be considered facts and the opinions may change. Opinions posted by participants (such as comments) are not those of the hosts. Readers should not rely on any information found here and should perform due diligence before taking any action. For a more extensive description of factors for you to consider, please see www.psychologyinseattle.com
Photo credit: By http://www.blogstodiefor.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/jonbenet-ramsey.jpg, Fair use, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?curid=32519685
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/KIRK to get 10% off your first month.
00:00 Pageant interview
06:36 Ramsey family history
24:18 Check in with yourself
27:35 The Ramsey's maintain their innocence
Become a member: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOUZWV1DRtHtpP2H48S7iiw/join
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/PsychologyInSeattle
Email: https://www.psychologyinseattle.com/contact
Website: https://www.psychologyinseattle.com
Merch: https://psychologyinseattle-shop.fourthwall.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/psychologyinseattle/
Facebook Official Page: https://www.facebook.com/PsychologyInSeattle/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kirk.honda
October 8, 2025
The Psychology In Seattle Podcast ®
Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
Disclaimer: The content provided is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only. Nothing here constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis, or creates a counselor-client relationship. Topics discussed may generate differing points of view. If you participate (by being a guest, submitting a question, or commenting) you must do so with the knowledge that we cannot control reactions or responses from others, which may not agree with you or feel unfair. Your participation on this site is at your own risk, accepting full responsibility for any liability or harm that may result. Anything you write here may be used for discussion or endorsement of the podcast. Opinions and views expressed by the host and guest hosts are personal views. Although, we take precautions and fact check, they should not be considered facts and the opinions may change. Opinions posted by participants (such as comments) are not those of the hosts. Readers should not rely on any information found here and should perform due diligence before taking any action. For a more extensive description of factors for you to consider, please see www.psychologyinseattle.com
Photo credit: By http://www.blogstodiefor.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/jonbenet-ramsey.jpg, Fair use, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?curid=32519685
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, deserving listeners. This is chapter two and our deep
dive on the Jean Benet, John Benet or Jeanne John
Jean Benet Ramsey case, which is at its core a
very tragic case, regardless of who done it, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Who or why done it? It's tragic.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yeah, so there's that. But in chapter one, Berto laid
out some of the initial data and I'm all over
the place. Yeah, I got hot under the collar during
the patron zone. Last time, I'm already angry at the police.
So continue Berto. This is the Psychology in Seattle podcast.
I'm your host, doctor Kirkanda. I'm a therapist and I'm
(00:40):
a professor, and I'll just read your shirt. My name
is Emberto Castnetta and mother. So a fan made this
shirt for Bertou and it has a bunch of quotes
from him from before you. So introduce yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Bro, my name is Umberto and I manufacture clowns noses
but green.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
So, last time we went over the events of the day,
December twenty sixth of nineteen eighty six. I wanted to
now take a little step back and talk about who
are these folks, who are the family, and also address
the sort of the elephant in the room. But it's
not really, but it is is that John bene Ramsey
(01:24):
was a beauty pageant participant heavily.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
That was one of the main activities she was involved in.
And if folks.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Don't know much about beauty pageants for kids, I don't either,
so we're in good company. And then I'll have a
lot of questions for you about that that topic. So
I wanted to start with a video. This is an
interview John Beney Ramsey. It's during one of those pageants,
and it's just kind of like to show if you
(01:53):
haven't seen what these things look like or whatever. This
is just like her made up with really fancy dresses.
And then the interviewer is asking our questions.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Okay, so this is presumably just an interest piece about
child beauty pagets.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Yeah, and this is likely that same year, I believe
name and how old you are?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Okay? What is your favorite animals.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Around?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
So that's a short clip, but essentially you can see,
you know.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
How dolled up she is, like literally dalled up, but
otherwise she's she's acting like.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
A little girl. You know, they're asking her what is
your favorite anam what the zoo's like, it's the monkeys.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Now, for those who aren't watching the video, her dolled
upness isn't extreme. She has a fancy hat and from
the resolution it looks like maybe makeup and whatnot, but
she's looks like a little girl to me.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
So if you're just listening to this or we're watching
right now, is a video from one of the pageants.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Little John Benet is walking in one of these outfits.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
It's like a sequined I don't know the right terms,
but it's this white and blue, very pretty dress and
she's got it's like a.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Palm dress in the eighties. You have the huffy and.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Her hair is very made up. It's like very like elaborate.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
And she has kind of a plastered mini smile, you know,
five or six years old, right, Yeah, but in there
she's like smiling, smiling, and so there's a lot of
poise and when you think about five, five or six
years old, right, just the ability to.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
You know, get that much control.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
ANDAs with regular kids that aren't trained or don't have
this demeanor, like one of the funniest things to do
is to have like in kindergarten. They'll get on stage
and they'll sing a song and half the kids will
just be picking their nose, right.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
And that's actually funny because that's all part of the thing.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
So to see her by herself, with no one there
telling her what to do, and that's kind of the
thing about these child beauty pageants, is just the training
that goes into it.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
So we'll watch a couple more clips later, but essentially
that's just a really quick look at the kinds of
events that John Benet was participating in. And this wasn't
a casual thing, meaning it wasn't like, oh, yeah, she
just heard about it, went down to the mall one Saturday.
This had become an active participation that her mom was
(04:41):
engaging her in.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah. What I'll say is, because I've never seen that, obviously,
I have two reactions. One is that it seems less
scandalous or problematic than I thought. When you watch it, it's
just like, you know, a kid dressed up in a
thing walking around it. It demystifies it a little bit
to actually see it in a video, But it also
(05:05):
is somewhat disturbing to think about these kids dressed up
in that way. People say it's sexualized. That didn't look
sexualized to me. I mean, I guess you could say
to dress up a kid as an adult, especially in
certain kinds of outfits, but those outfits didn't.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, these two examples seem less like that.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
There are somewhere they're wearing essentially bathing suits and things
like that, right, and they have, and there's somewhere there's a.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Lot more makeup.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
And I think the issue is that whether you think
it's esthetically nice or whatever, meaning like I personally look
at that, and I'm like, I don't necessarily I can
tell it's kind of a neat dress, but it doesn't
draw my attention especially, but I also don't look at
it going like WHOA, she's sexualized.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
But unfortunately, if you are someone that already has an
attraction to underage kids or you know, kids, this might
be a chance for you to look at them in
even more of a dulled up way or a more
adult way.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Or yeah, and you know, full disclosure. Coincidentally, well, actually
I can't disclose because I'm under contract, but I'll.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Just say that something is happening.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
I'm involved in a project that is extremely related to
this and So I've been doing a lot of research
and thinking and interviewing people, talking to people about this. So, well,
you're working for the CIA, so when we get into
the pageant stuff, I can talk about my opinion and
my take.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
That makes sense, all right.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
So I'm going to go through a little biography of
each protagonist of the family.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I'm not going to go through all the protectists.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
We would never finish, okay, So starting with John Bennett Ramsey,
the father, born in December seventh, nineteen forty three, in Lincoln, Nebraska,
nineteen forty three.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
This makes him about eighteen or eighty two.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
So he had a bachelor's in electrical engineering and a
master's an mba master's in business administration, also from Michigan State.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
So he was a graduate of Michigan State.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
So it was well, you know, he had great education
and he like he went on to be a very
successful professional. He owned a business that was very successful.
He was also in the military. He served in the
Navy as an officer. He worked logistics and engineering roles
during the Vietnam War era. So he wasn't like at
the front line, but he was during that war. He
(07:27):
was actually active and then he had a business career,
so he did. He entered the area of technology and defense.
I mentioned in the previous episode that Lockheed Market Martin
had acquired his company, and he had founded this distributor
of what I'm guessing is a lot of computer parts,
including graphics cards. Graphics cards were huge in the mid nineties. Okay,
(07:48):
So he ran one of these computer distribution companies called
Access Graphics, and basically they sold high end computer systems
and then they made a lot of money there. In
nineteen ninety six they had posted annual revenue exceeding one
billion dollars, which is a lot of money in especially
mid nineties. That's a big successful company. That year, John
(08:08):
Ramsey received a bonus at work. He was the owner
of the company, but at this point he was also
owned by Lockheed Martin. So and you know, even when
you're the owner, like you pay yourself a bonus.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Right, you're an owner and you're an employee, right.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So his bonus for that year was can you guess.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Uh, one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
One hundred and eighteen thousand dollars, Okay, that was the
exact amount of his bonus that year.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Interesting well, there's no tickt either column for me, because
if you're a kidnapper, then well, at the very least
you have to know, right, because that would be if
you're not if you're not the parents, then you would
have to know or know someone that knew or something.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Right. It couldn't be some random like oh, I'm gonna
break into this house then randomly write a note right.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Like right, yeah, or it's the parents and that's what
they're trying to make it look like.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Yeah, except someone will point out, well, he had his
pace suff with the thing in his office, so someone
could have rifled through and seen. But I don't know
how many hours were spent rifling through the whole house
to find information about how much to charge them for them.
But it's interesting, right, Like we were wondering, what was
that random figure?
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Right right?
Speaker 3 (09:22):
There was an explicit reason. Okay, yeah, okay. He was
married once before. He had three children with the first marriage,
and his daughter Elizabeth had died, so he had already
lost one daughter.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
How does she die?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Car crash? I know, I know. When I first was
going through it was.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Like wait, wait he had a well, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
It is car crash.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
At the age of twenty two. He was not involved,
There was no you know, but it was tragic as
tragic gets right, like your twenty two year old daughter,
the whole world ahead of her dies in a tragic
car accident. So you'd already dealt with losing a child.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah. Now I'm guessing, or hope anyway, that we have
data from his first wife and his kids about John's personality,
because if it was John and or Patsy, then there
would likely be some sort Oh by the way, quick,
little asterix, you sent me an article. This is a right,
(10:19):
This is a deep dive asterix within about another deep
dive within a deep dive. So tell us what you read. Right.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Well, So I came across a news item where a
certain father named Errol Musk has been formally accused of
sexual abuse of not one, but like many of his children,
and that just came out this week, And so I
sent you this article because we had literally discussed this
(10:49):
in our podcast as it related to Elon Musk and
your theory, which I was like, WHOA, that makes a
lot of sense of like that hate. Maybe he was
not just traumatized from bullying, which is traumatic enough, but
maybe there was even more significant, abusing cleaning, sexual abuse,
and this could mess someone up royally for the rest
of their life.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So I was like, yeah, I mean, we knew that
Eryl Musk was having an ongoing relationship sexual and romantic
relationship with one of his stepdaughters and had two kids
with her and was not ashamed to talk about it.
So we knew that, but we didn't.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Know only this is systematic and ongoing.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
But the hints were there when Elon would give interviews,
and he a couple of times said something like he
is an evil, evil, evil man, and he mentions like
really horrible abuse and violence, and.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
He stopped short of going into details about but there
are hints in his.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
But he says everything you can think of of an
evil father doing he did. And I was so surprised
that people weren't, you know, it's just speculation, but.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Well, but it's from the man himself, Like it's not
some other person speculating, it's the person Elon Musk himself
saying these horrible things. Now he hasn't been convicted and
stuff like that, these are accusations, but it's just I
found it like fascinating that this is finally officially.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
It's not an accusation that he had an ongoing sexual
relationship with one of his step times, right, someone that
he raised. But anyway, so end of asterisk.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
But you were, but you were bringing that in the
context of, like we're hoping, is their data from the
first marriage from Lucinda and the children to give.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
An indication of personality. It wouldn't be a slam dunk,
but if he was a psychopath and was violent or something,
then it would point in a direction.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
And we'll get a little bit into what other folks
have said about him in an episode where I'm going
to consider various theories, But what I'll say for right
now is like, no smoking guns here. There's no like,
oh my gosh, well yeah, Lucinda. They gave this interview
and like I guess, it was, hell no, this doesn't exist.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
All right a sickeret break. Can we get back? Let's continue?
What do you say?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Let's do it?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
All right, We're back from the break. Sorry for interrupting. Continue, Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
The second marriage was to Patsy, so he had one
marriage didn't work out, but these things happened, had a
horrible loss of Elizabeth, and second marriage to Patricia. So
with Patricia they had children, Burke and John Bennet. Burke
was older and was nine at the time of John
Benet's murder. Patsy herself, and we'll get a little bit
(13:35):
more into this in a second was a former beauty queen,
so that's likely where her fascination with these pageant things
came from. John was then married a third time later
spoiler alert, but it's not a Patsy eventually died of cancer.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
So she died.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
And then eventually John married, So this wasn't some salacious thing.
It was a third marriage that it was twenty eleven.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, geez, if this John guy is innocence, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, he's been through a lot, right, dead daughter from
a first marriage, a murdered daughter from second marriage, and
then his second wife dies of cancer. Yeah, no kidding, okay,
and then later in life, so he relocated from Colorado
to Michigan and later Georgia. It was interesting because he
(14:24):
was trying to sort of like stay out of the limelight,
or at least that's what he himself kind of claimed.
But he's been very involved because he's still actively searching
for the killer, and he goes to crime conventions, and
he gives interviews and a whole bunch of stuff. So
he's actually quite in the public eye. And there was
a recent Netflix documentary which I'll talk about later that
(14:45):
where he's interviewed.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
He also wrote a book. He co wrote a book
with Patsy.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
In two thousand called The Death of Innocence and it
was about defending their innocence and talking about the death.
All right, and then as of now, he's eighty I guess, yeah,
and he's living with his current wife. So this is
someone who, other than these tragedies, had had a successful life.
You know, he'd been well educated, great company, like, successful
(15:13):
in business, all these things, and then even in spite
of these tragedies, continue to live his life and kind
of carry forward and things like that. So you know,
from that perspective, again, if we believe that he's fine,
he's innocent, then this is only tragic and it's only
commendable how he's able to pick up the pieces and
keep going right.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Okay, So now we move to Patsy.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
She was born in nineteen fifty six, so she was
a little younger in Parkersburg, West Virginia.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Have you ever been to West Virginia.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Is that what John Denver is he saying about West Virginia. Yeah, yeah, right, Okay,
I always kind of want to go there because I
want to see these blue the blue rich mountains or whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Well, so it's beautiful, it's it is pretty and it's
an interesting party Knight States, rolling hills. But compared to
the nature out here, I mean, because out there, the
mountains that you get are the ones that are closest
to you. And it's not that it's not beautiful, but
growing up in.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I see, yeah, you're like spoiled.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I mean you grew up literally in the shadow of
Rainier Mountain. Yeah, all of the other mountains that are around,
and all the nature and all the hills and all
the things, and so.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
You know, it's a beautiful, beautiful air now it.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Has its own charm West Virginia. Yeah, yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
So Patsy had parents Donald and Nidra Powell. She was
one of three daughters, and education wise, she attended high school,
I was very active in cheerleand and drama, and then
earned a bachelor's degree in journalism from West Virginia University.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
And then she was.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
A pageant, participant she at age twenty was crowned, So
this is not small deal Miss West, Miss West Virginia.
So she won the actual Miss West Virginia for nineteen
seventy seven, and then she competed in Miss America.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
In nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Doesn't sound like she won that one, but she did compete,
and she was known for charisma, poise, and interest in
fashion and performing, so you know, quite a bit of
background in that aspect, and so it wasn't super surprising
that she might have, you know, wanted her daughter to
be involved in that, although it doesn't say anything about
her competing.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
As a child. Patsy competing as a child.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
So she was married to John, they had Burke and
John Bennet, and she also had step children from John's
first marriage, of course, and everyone only said that she
was devoted to her family. So there is another case
where there weren't like horror stories like remember with the
Menendez there were stories, in spite of us not really
fully knowing the final truth.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
There were stories about how brutal the father.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Could be in public and yelling at them and all
these we don't have those smoking guns here about Patsy
or John or John.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Okay, Yeah, so no accounts from coworkers or extended family
or the ex wife or the kids saying well done.
John was abusive.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Oh yeah, like things like well, I don't know what happened,
but right we are going to get into there are
some things.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
That the housekeeper had to say.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
About both of them, but even those are still also
not smoking gun. And when I say smoking guns, they're
not as clear as red flags as some.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Of the things we were talking about in the Menendez.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Brothers, Yeah, where like there were literally relatives that said, well,
I don't know, he would take his son upstairs for hours,
I don't know what they were doing, and the other
guy's like, well he would brutally yell at him and
hit him at the you know, this doesn't exist here
in December nineteen ninety six. Patsy is the one that
discovered the ransom note. But another thing that we will
(18:49):
talk about when we talk about the theories is Patsy
was not ruled out on the handwriting side. John and
Burke were meaning they did and I know the handwriting
analysis can be but John and Burke were actually ruled out.
They were like, yeah, there's no you know, they grated
on a scale, and for them it was like, this
is super unlikely that it's them with Patsy. They could
(19:12):
not rule her out. And what that means is that
different experts either said I think it might be her handwriting,
others said I'm not sure, and some said I can't tell.
So they couldn't rule her out.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
So that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
And then when I would say, I'm looking at the
note right now on our other screen, there are some
distinctive qualities her a's her there, the person's a's in
the in the ransom note have that I don't know
what you call it, but that that little tag on
the top right, and there are a couple other letters
(19:46):
that look pretty distinctive.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Yeah, so we'll look we'll actually look at us side
by side in the Theories episode where we look at
what you know, some of the But spoiler alert, there's
no conclusive thing here. We're not going to be like, oh, okay,
well that proves it. It's just but it's interesting that
she was not ruled out.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Right, And it doesn't take a genius to realize that
if you're trying to fake a ransom note, you could
fake a different way of writing.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Absolutely Now, what skeptics would say, or what people might
say is like, yeah, it's just that it's her pad,
her pen, and the random intruder who killed their daughter
happens to have a handwriting that also matches her.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
That's where they start getting with.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
But yeah, I mean, well we're looking for tics the column. Yeah,
so it's a tickl the column.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Uh that said, Patsy maintained her innocence publicly and privately,
and there was never any account of anyone that knew
her coming out and saying, well one time she did
almost say something or said something weird to me.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
There's no therapist that came forward exactly, yeah, exactly having
had sex with his client.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
God. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
So, by the way, that's the other interesting thing here,
Like we are going to have some interesting things that
come out that you're gonna be like, wait, really that's
but there aren't those like well, actually, you know, we
found out that Patsy was at a golf game and
she said and that didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Okay, she had health struggles she when the murder happened.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Well, so just gentlemen on that a little bit after
consuming you know, a fair amount of true crime and
doing a number of deep dives. One of the things
that is not like the movies, you know, where you
have your Hannibal lecters and your super geniuses, because they
either don't exist or they're extremely rare. Very often there
(21:37):
is a breadcrumb trail there, there's evidence leading up to it,
like for people that are abusive or maybe even planning
on killing. Like it's not uncommon to have people googling
how do I bury a body m Or they're talking
with a friend a month earlier and they say, you know,
(21:58):
sometimes I just feel like killing my kid. You know,
there's almost always, at least if investigators look hard enough,
there's almost always some kind of trail that leads up
to it.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
So, oh my gosh, I could have strangled him, he
was strangled to death.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Oh god, statements or a book that they checked out,
or there's usually something. Now it doesn't mean guilt, but
the fact that there's been nothing.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Nothing that clear. No, Like I said, we'll get into
what the housekeeper said. And to be fair, the housekeeper
probably spent more time around them than.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
A lot of people.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
But yeah, but even there, it wasn't like, well, I
found the book where her diary where she had.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Written, I'm sick and tired, I'm ending it or whatever
you know, Okay, health struggles.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
She was already a survivor of cancer by the time
the murder happened, meaning she was in remission. She had
ovarian cancer. They had gone through the therapy and she
was in remission much later. It recurred in two thousand
and two, and then it got worse, and then she
eventually passed.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
The way, can I do a little diversion here for
a second. So I'm wondering if the audience, some of
the people in the audience are in either of the
camps right, whether they are the parent apologist or they
are one hundred percent convinced that the parents or one
of the parents killed Joonpanny Ramsay. What I'll say is
that according to Embarrado, anyway, none of us know and
(23:23):
it could be either, and we just have to be
okay with the fact that we don't know. You look
at the data one way and it says one thing.
You look at the data and other says nothing. Also,
you can have passions, and you can have hobbies, and
you can have your own things that you're interested in,
passionate about. But if we or I are exhibiting one
side or the other, and I'll just say for the record,
(23:44):
I have no idea. I can't help, but to you know,
try to figure it out. It's a who done it
kind of a thing, which is what attracts people to
these things. Anyway, if it was an open and shut case,
it would have its certain saalaciousness a case like this,
but I'm guessing it's still in the public consciousness. You
said there's a Netflix documentary recently, so thirty years later,
(24:06):
it's still interesting to people, and we're doing a deep
dive on So it must be one of those cases
that is just really hard to resolve. But what I'll
say is that if as we explore this, you're finding
yourself to get getting angry or rageful or in a
comment section or you want to throw your phone or something,
(24:29):
I want you to check in with yourself because there's
probably something going on there. I'm not diagnosing from afar,
and it's self serving to say if you're mad at me, there's.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Something wrong with you.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
You're yeah, So you know, take all that into consideration.
But I think a lot of the fandom, if you will,
around cases like this is because there's a lot of
pain and abuse in trauma in the world, and these cases,
maybe particularly back in the nineties, when you can point
(24:58):
and a bunch of people can also together. Some parents
are bad. Some parents are brutal, Some parents are abusive,
some parents are psychopathic. Some parents don't care about your feelings.
Even the rich families, even the families that look like
everything's fine, it happens. People believe me, it happens. It happens.
It happens. And when people say, well, I don't know
(25:20):
if the parents did it, it can feel like you
are personally being discounted and that you're being abused in
the exact same way that you were being abused as
a kid, where maybe even no one listened to you.
Maybe you even told people and they said, not them.
Your parents are nice people, I mean literally, right, Or
even you tell your other parent and they say, your
(25:41):
father would never do that, and it can feel like
you're back there. But you're not back there, and thank god,
you're not back there. So deep breath and let's move forward. Yeah,
from the other side, If you're a parent that has
been judged or accused of something which happens, right, you
(26:02):
have custody battles where one parent falsely accuses the other
parent of being abusive or sexually abusive. Or you had
a kid that died or was you know, they broke
their arm and you took them to the hospital and
to this day you remember being questioned by the police,
or you had family or people at school that were
(26:23):
actively pointing the finger at you, And you know what
it feels like to be falsely accused of something and
to have a group of people, even if they're not
attacking you, just the idea that someone out there would
think that you would do this is extremely upsetting and rageful.
And so on the other side, too, deep breath, You know,
your trauma is real. Everyone's trauma is real. This is
(26:45):
a case none of us have any idea about. We
just have to accept that.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
So, like, for example, her cancer has been used by
both sides because you could say, well, her health was fragile,
she was a survivor, she was struggling and things like that,
So it adds sympathy to her case, right, And then
you have the other perspective, which is, well that would
add a lot of stress. Maybe she was very stressed,
(27:12):
Maybe she was at her limit. Maybe there were things
that were really upsetting to her, you know, all these
kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
So yeah, so she sadly because you know, when people
are stressed out about cancer, they go on their murderous,
sadistic killing spree of their own children.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It happens in the movies.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
And then on the other side, you know, well, if
she murdered her kid, I mean, go easy on her.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
She has cancer, right, Okay, So despite battling her illness,
she remained vocal defending her family's innocence. Her family's innocence.
So this is another aspect that the family remained united. John, Patsy,
and Burke remain and remain united in their stance that
(27:57):
they're innocent.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
She oh, I hadn't even thought about that. That people
might think it was the older brother, but he wasn't
old enough for that.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Kind a nine year old. How could a nine year
old hurt another person?
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Well, I mean, it could happen, but the nature of
that well, I don't know. I mean, are there people
who think Perk did it, and it is possible he
did it, it's unlikely.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
We might have to see that in the theories okay, question. Yeah,
I mean, listen, that's the problem is that there's a
lot of theories.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
So Patsy died in June twenty fourth, two thousand and six,
so she was forty nine.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Man, she was young, very young.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
So in this again, if she was innocent, oh my god,
the tragedy she lost her baby and then she passed
away from cancer not knowing what happened or anything. And
then the other one is like if she had something
to do and then what happened, it just sucks.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And your health has to do with stress, and of
course society I'm guessing wasn't super helpful in that way, right,
And if you're stressed, you might not seek help or
treatments or you know, there's a lot of factors. I'm
not saying the public killed her if she was innocent,
but you know, might not have helped.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah. In fact, Patsy has arguably.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Been one of the most polarizing figures in the story.
There was a lot of immediate and ongoing backlash about
the fact that she had John Benet in pageants in
the first place. A lot of accusations of you know,
over sexualizing or putting in a place that would be
vulnerable anyways to other Well, if it were someone that
came into the house and killed her, maybe that was
(29:35):
because of her being in the pageants, this kind of thing.
So that was criticized, not to mention, there was actual
accusations like, well maybe she did it, and we'll go
into all the possible reasons.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Why they would say that.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
So, yeah, it was not great, you know, really tragic
no matter which way you slice it. I will say now,
and this is going to become more of a of
a thing we just us. But in two thousand and
eight there was a DNA based exoneration of the Ramseys.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
But we shouldn't overread into this.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
What happened is in two thousand and eight, there were
you know, because as you can imagine, in nineteen ninety six,
DNA techniques weren't as advanced as they've gotten and they've
gotten even more advanced in two thousand and eight. But
in two thousand and eight they were basically able to
say that, okay, some of the additional DNA that had found,
they found some additional DNA did not match the Ramseys.
Now there was Ramsey DNA, but like sort of inexpected
(30:30):
ways you know, because they lived there and they you know,
they're all over the place, right, But there was additional
DNA they found that they couldn't match to the Ramseyes,
and so in two thousand and eight there was you know,
what I would call a soft xceneration, meaning there was
a public statement.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, but this doesn't mean the case is not closed.
The case is far from It is still an active investigation.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah, I guess I'd be curious as to what the
physical DNA evidence involved. Are you spoiling anything saying that
there was semen or something?
Speaker 3 (31:04):
I will I will anti spoil by saying like, luckily
there is no semen, Okay, but there is DNA that
is unmatched.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, but that could be for so many reasons, I know.
But at the very least, it could be like the
salesperson that sold them the clothes, or it could be
the housekeeper could have bumped into someone and yeah, got
you know, yes, but that's curious because in today's technology,
with twenty three and meters and all the records of DNA,
they haven't found any sort of.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
So the father and the investigators and the police that
likely are still pursuing things with latest DNA evidence.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
But so presumably they haven't found any not yet, and.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Keep in mind that the samples are very old now
and whether they were properly preserved.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
But if they're able to make a statement about this
is a distinct other person, they have enough of the DNA.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Well, yeah, in two thousand and eight, it was more like, hey,
this additional DNA that we can't place, we can say
it's not the Ramses.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
And this has come from John ben a Ramsey's attorney.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
No, this was a public statement by the district attorney.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Just okay, yeah, I mean it says something. Maybe, Yeah,
that says something, all right.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
So, although it doesn't because because there because if if
the parents had killed the kid, then so and they
did find DNA of the parents in the quote unquote
the unexpected ways.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
So I'm gonna spoiler alert something to say that there
were different factions within the law enforcement site.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
The DA was not on the same page as.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
The police and was definitely not on the same page neither,
Like there were three different factions, the Ramses and their
investigators and the police.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Would be nice if law enforcement and the justice system
just took the data and weren't biased, wouldn't it be
nice if they just waited until the data came in.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yes, all right, so pageants, pageant history.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
I said that Patsy Ramsey was a former beauty queen
and this meant that, well, it didn't mean but in
this case, she decided to start.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
And this is an important point. How do you feel
about this? I have two kids, and even at their.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Age, which is like a teenager and you know, almost
a teenager, it's like sometimes they don't make decisions with
all their brain cells activated and what I'd call fully informed,
which is why we know that like things like age
of consent is not till you're like eighteen and stuff
like that, and why you're not allowed to drink alcohol
here in this country before you're a certain age and
(33:41):
other things. You're not allowed to vote. So at age
of five, the decisions you make are definitely influenced by
those around you, especially if it's a parent and things
like that. So when I say that John Benet began
competing around age five in the beauty pageants, it is
possible she was at a pre school and her little
(34:01):
five year old peer said, like, I'm competing, and then
she came home one day and said, I would like
to compete, but by all accounts and likely Patsy was like, Hey,
we should do this thing because she was interested in it. Okay,
But either way, John Beney showed an affinity for it.
She seemed to be good at it. She started winning.
And are we going to get into this topic later?
(34:21):
Because I got a lot of shit to say about.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
This is the time and I have questions right now.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
So if you want to start adding this is great, okay,
because this is all pageant right.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So I don't know if I said it in this
chapter or last chapter, but for reasons that I can't
disclose currently, it's not anything horrible. It's just that until
the Provilliance, until the project is published, I'm under contract
not to talk about it specifically, but I think I
can say that I'm involved in some kind of project
that them asking me for expert opinion about child beauty
(34:53):
pageants and also reality TV and whatnot, and so I've
been doing a lot of thinking. I already knew a
fair about the The reason they reached out to us,
to me was because you and I did a deep
dive on child beauty pageants in twenty eighteen, actually right,
and it was actually a fan of the podcast as
well anyway. But I have a lot to say about this.
But before I go on that long yamoring in that conversation,
(35:16):
because there's a lot to say. There's so much to
say about about it, And you know, I have my
simplistic initial reaction, and I'm sure back then I was
just like, what kind of monsters would doll up their kids?
But it's way more complicated than that, and there's a
lot of cultural understandings that have to be kind of
fleshed out. It doesn't mean that it's a great thing. Also,
the idea of consenting for kids, I'm passionate about that.
(35:40):
We talked about that in a previous Deep Diver episode
in which I went down I think it was during
the Dugger. Oh yes, where you have kids that are
quote unquote consenting to be on a reality TV show?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah, right, we talked about that.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
How it's like, well, I mean, they were in on it,
they liked doing it, they loved it.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Right, And I went down a whole rabbit hole just
on my own about the laws for kids and entertainment
and how you know, so I want to get into
all that kind of stuff. It's going to be long,
so that'll be in the patron zone. So if you're
not a patron, then the episode will end here. Tune
in next time on chapter three. Otherwise, become a patron
or see you for now. Take care of yourself because
(36:21):
you deserve it.
Hey, deserving listeners. This is chapter two and our deep
dive on the Jean Benet, John Benet or Jeanne John
Jean Benet Ramsey case, which is at its core a
very tragic case, regardless of who done it, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Who or why done it? It's tragic.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yeah, so there's that. But in chapter one, Berto laid
out some of the initial data and I'm all over
the place. Yeah, I got hot under the collar during
the patron zone. Last time, I'm already angry at the police.
So continue Berto. This is the Psychology in Seattle podcast.
I'm your host, doctor Kirkanda. I'm a therapist and I'm
(00:40):
a professor, and I'll just read your shirt. My name
is Emberto Castnetta and mother. So a fan made this
shirt for Bertou and it has a bunch of quotes
from him from before you. So introduce yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Bro, my name is Umberto and I manufacture clowns noses
but green.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
So, last time we went over the events of the day,
December twenty sixth of nineteen eighty six. I wanted to
now take a little step back and talk about who
are these folks, who are the family, and also address
the sort of the elephant in the room. But it's
not really, but it is is that John bene Ramsey
(01:24):
was a beauty pageant participant heavily.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
That was one of the main activities she was involved in.
And if folks.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Don't know much about beauty pageants for kids, I don't either,
so we're in good company. And then I'll have a
lot of questions for you about that that topic. So
I wanted to start with a video. This is an
interview John Beney Ramsey. It's during one of those pageants,
and it's just kind of like to show if you
(01:53):
haven't seen what these things look like or whatever. This
is just like her made up with really fancy dresses.
And then the interviewer is asking our questions.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Okay, so this is presumably just an interest piece about
child beauty pagets.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Yeah, and this is likely that same year, I believe
name and how old you are?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Okay? What is your favorite animals.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Around?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
So that's a short clip, but essentially you can see,
you know.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
How dolled up she is, like literally dalled up, but
otherwise she's she's acting like.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
A little girl. You know, they're asking her what is
your favorite anam what the zoo's like, it's the monkeys.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Now, for those who aren't watching the video, her dolled
upness isn't extreme. She has a fancy hat and from
the resolution it looks like maybe makeup and whatnot, but
she's looks like a little girl to me.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
So if you're just listening to this or we're watching
right now, is a video from one of the pageants.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Little John Benet is walking in one of these outfits.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
It's like a sequined I don't know the right terms,
but it's this white and blue, very pretty dress and
she's got it's like a.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Palm dress in the eighties. You have the huffy and.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Her hair is very made up. It's like very like elaborate.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
And she has kind of a plastered mini smile, you know,
five or six years old, right, Yeah, but in there
she's like smiling, smiling, and so there's a lot of
poise and when you think about five, five or six
years old, right, just the ability to.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
You know, get that much control.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
ANDAs with regular kids that aren't trained or don't have
this demeanor, like one of the funniest things to do
is to have like in kindergarten. They'll get on stage
and they'll sing a song and half the kids will
just be picking their nose, right.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
And that's actually funny because that's all part of the thing.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
So to see her by herself, with no one there
telling her what to do, and that's kind of the
thing about these child beauty pageants, is just the training
that goes into it.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
So we'll watch a couple more clips later, but essentially
that's just a really quick look at the kinds of
events that John Benet was participating in. And this wasn't
a casual thing, meaning it wasn't like, oh, yeah, she
just heard about it, went down to the mall one Saturday.
This had become an active participation that her mom was
(04:41):
engaging her in.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah. What I'll say is, because I've never seen that, obviously,
I have two reactions. One is that it seems less
scandalous or problematic than I thought. When you watch it, it's
just like, you know, a kid dressed up in a
thing walking around it. It demystifies it a little bit
to actually see it in a video, But it also
(05:05):
is somewhat disturbing to think about these kids dressed up
in that way. People say it's sexualized. That didn't look
sexualized to me. I mean, I guess you could say
to dress up a kid as an adult, especially in
certain kinds of outfits, but those outfits didn't.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, these two examples seem less like that.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
There are somewhere they're wearing essentially bathing suits and things
like that, right, and they have, and there's somewhere there's a.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Lot more makeup.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
And I think the issue is that whether you think
it's esthetically nice or whatever, meaning like I personally look
at that, and I'm like, I don't necessarily I can
tell it's kind of a neat dress, but it doesn't
draw my attention especially, but I also don't look at
it going like WHOA, she's sexualized.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
But unfortunately, if you are someone that already has an
attraction to underage kids or you know, kids, this might
be a chance for you to look at them in
even more of a dulled up way or a more
adult way.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Or yeah, and you know, full disclosure. Coincidentally, well, actually
I can't disclose because I'm under contract, but I'll.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Just say that something is happening.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
I'm involved in a project that is extremely related to
this and So I've been doing a lot of research
and thinking and interviewing people, talking to people about this. So, well,
you're working for the CIA, so when we get into
the pageant stuff, I can talk about my opinion and
my take.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
That makes sense, all right.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
So I'm going to go through a little biography of
each protagonist of the family.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I'm not going to go through all the protectists.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
We would never finish, okay, So starting with John Bennett Ramsey,
the father, born in December seventh, nineteen forty three, in Lincoln, Nebraska,
nineteen forty three.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
This makes him about eighteen or eighty two.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
So he had a bachelor's in electrical engineering and a
master's an mba master's in business administration, also from Michigan State.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
So he was a graduate of Michigan State.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
So it was well, you know, he had great education
and he like he went on to be a very
successful professional. He owned a business that was very successful.
He was also in the military. He served in the
Navy as an officer. He worked logistics and engineering roles
during the Vietnam War era. So he wasn't like at
the front line, but he was during that war. He
(07:27):
was actually active and then he had a business career,
so he did. He entered the area of technology and defense.
I mentioned in the previous episode that Lockheed Market Martin
had acquired his company, and he had founded this distributor
of what I'm guessing is a lot of computer parts,
including graphics cards. Graphics cards were huge in the mid nineties. Okay,
(07:48):
So he ran one of these computer distribution companies called
Access Graphics, and basically they sold high end computer systems
and then they made a lot of money there. In
nineteen ninety six they had posted annual revenue exceeding one
billion dollars, which is a lot of money in especially
mid nineties. That's a big successful company. That year, John
(08:08):
Ramsey received a bonus at work. He was the owner
of the company, but at this point he was also
owned by Lockheed Martin. So and you know, even when
you're the owner, like you pay yourself a bonus.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Right, you're an owner and you're an employee, right.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So his bonus for that year was can you guess.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Uh, one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
One hundred and eighteen thousand dollars, Okay, that was the
exact amount of his bonus that year.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Interesting well, there's no tickt either column for me, because
if you're a kidnapper, then well, at the very least
you have to know, right, because that would be if
you're not if you're not the parents, then you would
have to know or know someone that knew or something.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Right. It couldn't be some random like oh, I'm gonna
break into this house then randomly write a note right.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Like right, yeah, or it's the parents and that's what
they're trying to make it look like.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Yeah, except someone will point out, well, he had his
pace suff with the thing in his office, so someone
could have rifled through and seen. But I don't know
how many hours were spent rifling through the whole house
to find information about how much to charge them for them.
But it's interesting, right, Like we were wondering, what was
that random figure?
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Right right?
Speaker 3 (09:22):
There was an explicit reason. Okay, yeah, okay. He was
married once before. He had three children with the first marriage,
and his daughter Elizabeth had died, so he had already
lost one daughter.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
How does she die?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Car crash? I know, I know. When I first was
going through it was.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Like wait, wait he had a well, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
It is car crash.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
At the age of twenty two. He was not involved,
There was no you know, but it was tragic as
tragic gets right, like your twenty two year old daughter,
the whole world ahead of her dies in a tragic
car accident. So you'd already dealt with losing a child.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah. Now I'm guessing, or hope anyway, that we have
data from his first wife and his kids about John's personality,
because if it was John and or Patsy, then there
would likely be some sort Oh by the way, quick,
little asterix, you sent me an article. This is a right,
(10:19):
This is a deep dive asterix within about another deep
dive within a deep dive. So tell us what you read. Right.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Well, So I came across a news item where a
certain father named Errol Musk has been formally accused of
sexual abuse of not one, but like many of his children,
and that just came out this week, And so I
sent you this article because we had literally discussed this
(10:49):
in our podcast as it related to Elon Musk and
your theory, which I was like, WHOA, that makes a
lot of sense of like that hate. Maybe he was
not just traumatized from bullying, which is traumatic enough, but
maybe there was even more significant, abusing cleaning, sexual abuse,
and this could mess someone up royally for the rest
of their life.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So I was like, yeah, I mean, we knew that
Eryl Musk was having an ongoing relationship sexual and romantic
relationship with one of his stepdaughters and had two kids
with her and was not ashamed to talk about it.
So we knew that, but we didn't.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Know only this is systematic and ongoing.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
But the hints were there when Elon would give interviews,
and he a couple of times said something like he
is an evil, evil, evil man, and he mentions like
really horrible abuse and violence, and.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
He stopped short of going into details about but there
are hints in his.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
But he says everything you can think of of an
evil father doing he did. And I was so surprised
that people weren't, you know, it's just speculation, but.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Well, but it's from the man himself, Like it's not
some other person speculating, it's the person Elon Musk himself
saying these horrible things. Now he hasn't been convicted and
stuff like that, these are accusations, but it's just I
found it like fascinating that this is finally officially.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
It's not an accusation that he had an ongoing sexual
relationship with one of his step times, right, someone that
he raised. But anyway, so end of asterisk.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
But you were, but you were bringing that in the
context of, like we're hoping, is their data from the
first marriage from Lucinda and the children to give.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
An indication of personality. It wouldn't be a slam dunk,
but if he was a psychopath and was violent or something,
then it would point in a direction.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
And we'll get a little bit into what other folks
have said about him in an episode where I'm going
to consider various theories, But what I'll say for right
now is like, no smoking guns here. There's no like,
oh my gosh, well yeah, Lucinda. They gave this interview
and like I guess, it was, hell no, this doesn't exist.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
All right a sickeret break. Can we get back? Let's continue?
What do you say?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Let's do it?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
All right, We're back from the break. Sorry for interrupting. Continue, Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
The second marriage was to Patsy, so he had one
marriage didn't work out, but these things happened, had a
horrible loss of Elizabeth, and second marriage to Patricia. So
with Patricia they had children, Burke and John Bennet. Burke
was older and was nine at the time of John
Benet's murder. Patsy herself, and we'll get a little bit
(13:35):
more into this in a second was a former beauty queen,
so that's likely where her fascination with these pageant things
came from. John was then married a third time later
spoiler alert, but it's not a Patsy eventually died of cancer.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
So she died.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
And then eventually John married, So this wasn't some salacious thing.
It was a third marriage that it was twenty eleven.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, geez, if this John guy is innocence, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, he's been through a lot, right, dead daughter from
a first marriage, a murdered daughter from second marriage, and
then his second wife dies of cancer. Yeah, no kidding, okay,
and then later in life, so he relocated from Colorado
to Michigan and later Georgia. It was interesting because he
(14:24):
was trying to sort of like stay out of the limelight,
or at least that's what he himself kind of claimed.
But he's been very involved because he's still actively searching
for the killer, and he goes to crime conventions, and
he gives interviews and a whole bunch of stuff. So
he's actually quite in the public eye. And there was
a recent Netflix documentary which I'll talk about later that
(14:45):
where he's interviewed.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
He also wrote a book. He co wrote a book
with Patsy.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
In two thousand called The Death of Innocence and it
was about defending their innocence and talking about the death.
All right, and then as of now, he's eighty I guess, yeah,
and he's living with his current wife. So this is
someone who, other than these tragedies, had had a successful life.
You know, he'd been well educated, great company, like, successful
(15:13):
in business, all these things, and then even in spite
of these tragedies, continue to live his life and kind
of carry forward and things like that. So you know,
from that perspective, again, if we believe that he's fine,
he's innocent, then this is only tragic and it's only
commendable how he's able to pick up the pieces and
keep going right.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Okay, So now we move to Patsy.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
She was born in nineteen fifty six, so she was
a little younger in Parkersburg, West Virginia.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Have you ever been to West Virginia.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Is that what John Denver is he saying about West Virginia. Yeah, yeah, right, Okay,
I always kind of want to go there because I
want to see these blue the blue rich mountains or whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Well, so it's beautiful, it's it is pretty and it's
an interesting party Knight States, rolling hills. But compared to
the nature out here, I mean, because out there, the
mountains that you get are the ones that are closest
to you. And it's not that it's not beautiful, but
growing up in.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I see, yeah, you're like spoiled.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I mean you grew up literally in the shadow of
Rainier Mountain. Yeah, all of the other mountains that are around,
and all the nature and all the hills and all
the things, and so.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
You know, it's a beautiful, beautiful air now it.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Has its own charm West Virginia. Yeah, yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
So Patsy had parents Donald and Nidra Powell. She was
one of three daughters, and education wise, she attended high school,
I was very active in cheerleand and drama, and then
earned a bachelor's degree in journalism from West Virginia University.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
And then she was.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
A pageant, participant she at age twenty was crowned, So
this is not small deal Miss West, Miss West Virginia.
So she won the actual Miss West Virginia for nineteen
seventy seven, and then she competed in Miss America.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
In nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Doesn't sound like she won that one, but she did compete,
and she was known for charisma, poise, and interest in
fashion and performing, so you know, quite a bit of
background in that aspect, and so it wasn't super surprising
that she might have, you know, wanted her daughter to
be involved in that, although it doesn't say anything about
her competing.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
As a child. Patsy competing as a child.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
So she was married to John, they had Burke and
John Bennet, and she also had step children from John's
first marriage, of course, and everyone only said that she
was devoted to her family. So there is another case
where there weren't like horror stories like remember with the
Menendez there were stories, in spite of us not really
fully knowing the final truth.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
There were stories about how brutal the father.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Could be in public and yelling at them and all
these we don't have those smoking guns here about Patsy
or John or John.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Okay, Yeah, so no accounts from coworkers or extended family
or the ex wife or the kids saying well done.
John was abusive.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Oh yeah, like things like well, I don't know what happened,
but right we are going to get into there are
some things.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
That the housekeeper had to say.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
About both of them, but even those are still also
not smoking gun. And when I say smoking guns, they're
not as clear as red flags as some.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Of the things we were talking about in the Menendez.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Brothers, Yeah, where like there were literally relatives that said, well,
I don't know, he would take his son upstairs for hours,
I don't know what they were doing, and the other
guy's like, well he would brutally yell at him and
hit him at the you know, this doesn't exist here
in December nineteen ninety six. Patsy is the one that
discovered the ransom note. But another thing that we will
(18:49):
talk about when we talk about the theories is Patsy
was not ruled out on the handwriting side. John and
Burke were meaning they did and I know the handwriting
analysis can be but John and Burke were actually ruled out.
They were like, yeah, there's no you know, they grated
on a scale, and for them it was like, this
is super unlikely that it's them with Patsy. They could
(19:12):
not rule her out. And what that means is that
different experts either said I think it might be her handwriting,
others said I'm not sure, and some said I can't tell.
So they couldn't rule her out.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
So that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
And then when I would say, I'm looking at the
note right now on our other screen, there are some
distinctive qualities her a's her there, the person's a's in
the in the ransom note have that I don't know
what you call it, but that that little tag on
the top right, and there are a couple other letters
(19:46):
that look pretty distinctive.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Yeah, so we'll look we'll actually look at us side
by side in the Theories episode where we look at
what you know, some of the But spoiler alert, there's
no conclusive thing here. We're not going to be like, oh, okay,
well that proves it. It's just but it's interesting that
she was not ruled out.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Right, And it doesn't take a genius to realize that
if you're trying to fake a ransom note, you could
fake a different way of writing.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Absolutely Now, what skeptics would say, or what people might
say is like, yeah, it's just that it's her pad,
her pen, and the random intruder who killed their daughter
happens to have a handwriting that also matches her.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
That's where they start getting with.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
But yeah, I mean, well we're looking for tics the column. Yeah,
so it's a tickl the column.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Uh that said, Patsy maintained her innocence publicly and privately,
and there was never any account of anyone that knew
her coming out and saying, well one time she did
almost say something or said something weird to me.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
There's no therapist that came forward exactly, yeah, exactly having
had sex with his client.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
God. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
So, by the way, that's the other interesting thing here,
Like we are going to have some interesting things that
come out that you're gonna be like, wait, really that's
but there aren't those like well, actually, you know, we
found out that Patsy was at a golf game and
she said and that didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Okay, she had health struggles she when the murder happened.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Well, so just gentlemen on that a little bit after
consuming you know, a fair amount of true crime and
doing a number of deep dives. One of the things
that is not like the movies, you know, where you
have your Hannibal lecters and your super geniuses, because they
either don't exist or they're extremely rare. Very often there
(21:37):
is a breadcrumb trail there, there's evidence leading up to it,
like for people that are abusive or maybe even planning
on killing. Like it's not uncommon to have people googling
how do I bury a body m Or they're talking
with a friend a month earlier and they say, you know,
(21:58):
sometimes I just feel like killing my kid. You know,
there's almost always, at least if investigators look hard enough,
there's almost always some kind of trail that leads up
to it.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
So, oh my gosh, I could have strangled him, he
was strangled to death.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Oh god, statements or a book that they checked out,
or there's usually something. Now it doesn't mean guilt, but
the fact that there's been nothing.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Nothing that clear. No, Like I said, we'll get into
what the housekeeper said. And to be fair, the housekeeper
probably spent more time around them than.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
A lot of people.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
But yeah, but even there, it wasn't like, well, I
found the book where her diary where she had.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Written, I'm sick and tired, I'm ending it or whatever
you know, Okay, health struggles.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
She was already a survivor of cancer by the time
the murder happened, meaning she was in remission. She had
ovarian cancer. They had gone through the therapy and she
was in remission much later. It recurred in two thousand
and two, and then it got worse, and then she
eventually passed.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
The way, can I do a little diversion here for
a second. So I'm wondering if the audience, some of
the people in the audience are in either of the
camps right, whether they are the parent apologist or they
are one hundred percent convinced that the parents or one
of the parents killed Joonpanny Ramsay. What I'll say is
that according to Embarrado, anyway, none of us know and
(23:23):
it could be either, and we just have to be
okay with the fact that we don't know. You look
at the data one way and it says one thing.
You look at the data and other says nothing. Also,
you can have passions, and you can have hobbies, and
you can have your own things that you're interested in,
passionate about. But if we or I are exhibiting one
side or the other, and I'll just say for the record,
(23:44):
I have no idea. I can't help, but to you know,
try to figure it out. It's a who done it
kind of a thing, which is what attracts people to
these things. Anyway, if it was an open and shut case,
it would have its certain saalaciousness a case like this,
but I'm guessing it's still in the public consciousness. You
said there's a Netflix documentary recently, so thirty years later,
(24:06):
it's still interesting to people, and we're doing a deep
dive on So it must be one of those cases
that is just really hard to resolve. But what I'll
say is that if as we explore this, you're finding
yourself to get getting angry or rageful or in a
comment section or you want to throw your phone or something,
(24:29):
I want you to check in with yourself because there's
probably something going on there. I'm not diagnosing from afar,
and it's self serving to say if you're mad at me, there's.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Something wrong with you.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
You're yeah, So you know, take all that into consideration.
But I think a lot of the fandom, if you will,
around cases like this is because there's a lot of
pain and abuse in trauma in the world, and these cases,
maybe particularly back in the nineties, when you can point
(24:58):
and a bunch of people can also together. Some parents
are bad. Some parents are brutal, Some parents are abusive,
some parents are psychopathic. Some parents don't care about your feelings.
Even the rich families, even the families that look like
everything's fine, it happens. People believe me, it happens. It happens.
It happens. And when people say, well, I don't know
(25:20):
if the parents did it, it can feel like you
are personally being discounted and that you're being abused in
the exact same way that you were being abused as
a kid, where maybe even no one listened to you.
Maybe you even told people and they said, not them.
Your parents are nice people, I mean literally, right, Or
even you tell your other parent and they say, your
(25:41):
father would never do that, and it can feel like
you're back there. But you're not back there, and thank god,
you're not back there. So deep breath and let's move forward. Yeah,
from the other side, If you're a parent that has
been judged or accused of something which happens, right, you
(26:02):
have custody battles where one parent falsely accuses the other
parent of being abusive or sexually abusive. Or you had
a kid that died or was you know, they broke
their arm and you took them to the hospital and
to this day you remember being questioned by the police,
or you had family or people at school that were
(26:23):
actively pointing the finger at you, And you know what
it feels like to be falsely accused of something and
to have a group of people, even if they're not
attacking you, just the idea that someone out there would
think that you would do this is extremely upsetting and rageful.
And so on the other side, too, deep breath, You know,
your trauma is real. Everyone's trauma is real. This is
(26:45):
a case none of us have any idea about. We
just have to accept that.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
So, like, for example, her cancer has been used by
both sides because you could say, well, her health was fragile,
she was a survivor, she was struggling and things like that,
So it adds sympathy to her case, right, And then
you have the other perspective, which is, well that would
add a lot of stress. Maybe she was very stressed,
(27:12):
Maybe she was at her limit. Maybe there were things
that were really upsetting to her, you know, all these
kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
So yeah, so she sadly because you know, when people
are stressed out about cancer, they go on their murderous,
sadistic killing spree of their own children.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It happens in the movies.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
And then on the other side, you know, well, if
she murdered her kid, I mean, go easy on her.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
She has cancer, right, Okay, So despite battling her illness,
she remained vocal defending her family's innocence. Her family's innocence.
So this is another aspect that the family remained united. John, Patsy,
and Burke remain and remain united in their stance that
(27:57):
they're innocent.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
She oh, I hadn't even thought about that. That people
might think it was the older brother, but he wasn't
old enough for that.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Kind a nine year old. How could a nine year
old hurt another person?
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Well, I mean, it could happen, but the nature of
that well, I don't know. I mean, are there people
who think Perk did it, and it is possible he
did it, it's unlikely.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
We might have to see that in the theories okay, question. Yeah,
I mean, listen, that's the problem is that there's a
lot of theories.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
So Patsy died in June twenty fourth, two thousand and six,
so she was forty nine.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Man, she was young, very young.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
So in this again, if she was innocent, oh my god,
the tragedy she lost her baby and then she passed
away from cancer not knowing what happened or anything. And
then the other one is like if she had something
to do and then what happened, it just sucks.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And your health has to do with stress, and of
course society I'm guessing wasn't super helpful in that way, right,
And if you're stressed, you might not seek help or
treatments or you know, there's a lot of factors. I'm
not saying the public killed her if she was innocent,
but you know, might not have helped.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah. In fact, Patsy has arguably.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Been one of the most polarizing figures in the story.
There was a lot of immediate and ongoing backlash about
the fact that she had John Benet in pageants in
the first place. A lot of accusations of you know,
over sexualizing or putting in a place that would be
vulnerable anyways to other Well, if it were someone that
came into the house and killed her, maybe that was
(29:35):
because of her being in the pageants, this kind of thing.
So that was criticized, not to mention, there was actual
accusations like, well maybe she did it, and we'll go
into all the possible reasons.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Why they would say that.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
So, yeah, it was not great, you know, really tragic
no matter which way you slice it. I will say now,
and this is going to become more of a of
a thing we just us. But in two thousand and
eight there was a DNA based exoneration of the Ramseys.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
But we shouldn't overread into this.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
What happened is in two thousand and eight, there were
you know, because as you can imagine, in nineteen ninety six,
DNA techniques weren't as advanced as they've gotten and they've
gotten even more advanced in two thousand and eight. But
in two thousand and eight they were basically able to
say that, okay, some of the additional DNA that had found,
they found some additional DNA did not match the Ramseys.
Now there was Ramsey DNA, but like sort of inexpected
(30:30):
ways you know, because they lived there and they you know,
they're all over the place, right, But there was additional
DNA they found that they couldn't match to the Ramseyes,
and so in two thousand and eight there was you know,
what I would call a soft xceneration, meaning there was
a public statement.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, but this doesn't mean the case is not closed.
The case is far from It is still an active investigation.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah, I guess I'd be curious as to what the
physical DNA evidence involved. Are you spoiling anything saying that
there was semen or something?
Speaker 3 (31:04):
I will I will anti spoil by saying like, luckily
there is no semen, Okay, but there is DNA that
is unmatched.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, but that could be for so many reasons, I know.
But at the very least, it could be like the
salesperson that sold them the clothes, or it could be
the housekeeper could have bumped into someone and yeah, got
you know, yes, but that's curious because in today's technology,
with twenty three and meters and all the records of DNA,
they haven't found any sort of.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
So the father and the investigators and the police that
likely are still pursuing things with latest DNA evidence.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
But so presumably they haven't found any not yet, and.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Keep in mind that the samples are very old now
and whether they were properly preserved.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
But if they're able to make a statement about this
is a distinct other person, they have enough of the DNA.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Well, yeah, in two thousand and eight, it was more like, hey,
this additional DNA that we can't place, we can say
it's not the Ramses.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
And this has come from John ben a Ramsey's attorney.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
No, this was a public statement by the district attorney.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Just okay, yeah, I mean it says something. Maybe, Yeah,
that says something, all right.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
So, although it doesn't because because there because if if
the parents had killed the kid, then so and they
did find DNA of the parents in the quote unquote
the unexpected ways.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
So I'm gonna spoiler alert something to say that there
were different factions within the law enforcement site.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
The DA was not on the same page as.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
The police and was definitely not on the same page neither,
Like there were three different factions, the Ramses and their
investigators and the police.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Would be nice if law enforcement and the justice system
just took the data and weren't biased, wouldn't it be
nice if they just waited until the data came in.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yes, all right, so pageants, pageant history.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
I said that Patsy Ramsey was a former beauty queen
and this meant that, well, it didn't mean but in
this case, she decided to start.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
And this is an important point. How do you feel
about this? I have two kids, and even at their.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Age, which is like a teenager and you know, almost
a teenager, it's like sometimes they don't make decisions with
all their brain cells activated and what I'd call fully informed,
which is why we know that like things like age
of consent is not till you're like eighteen and stuff
like that, and why you're not allowed to drink alcohol
here in this country before you're a certain age and
(33:41):
other things. You're not allowed to vote. So at age
of five, the decisions you make are definitely influenced by
those around you, especially if it's a parent and things
like that. So when I say that John Benet began
competing around age five in the beauty pageants, it is
possible she was at a pre school and her little
(34:01):
five year old peer said, like, I'm competing, and then
she came home one day and said, I would like
to compete, but by all accounts and likely Patsy was like, Hey,
we should do this thing because she was interested in it. Okay,
But either way, John Beney showed an affinity for it.
She seemed to be good at it. She started winning.
And are we going to get into this topic later?
(34:21):
Because I got a lot of shit to say about.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
This is the time and I have questions right now.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
So if you want to start adding this is great, okay,
because this is all pageant right.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So I don't know if I said it in this
chapter or last chapter, but for reasons that I can't
disclose currently, it's not anything horrible. It's just that until
the Provilliance, until the project is published, I'm under contract
not to talk about it specifically, but I think I
can say that I'm involved in some kind of project
that them asking me for expert opinion about child beauty
(34:53):
pageants and also reality TV and whatnot, and so I've
been doing a lot of thinking. I already knew a
fair about the The reason they reached out to us,
to me was because you and I did a deep
dive on child beauty pageants in twenty eighteen, actually right,
and it was actually a fan of the podcast as
well anyway. But I have a lot to say about this.
But before I go on that long yamoring in that conversation,
(35:16):
because there's a lot to say. There's so much to
say about about it, And you know, I have my
simplistic initial reaction, and I'm sure back then I was
just like, what kind of monsters would doll up their kids?
But it's way more complicated than that, and there's a
lot of cultural understandings that have to be kind of
fleshed out. It doesn't mean that it's a great thing. Also,
the idea of consenting for kids, I'm passionate about that.
(35:40):
We talked about that in a previous Deep Diver episode
in which I went down I think it was during
the Dugger. Oh yes, where you have kids that are
quote unquote consenting to be on a reality TV show?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah, right, we talked about that.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
How it's like, well, I mean, they were in on it,
they liked doing it, they loved it.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Right, And I went down a whole rabbit hole just
on my own about the laws for kids and entertainment
and how you know, so I want to get into
all that kind of stuff. It's going to be long,
so that'll be in the patron zone. So if you're
not a patron, then the episode will end here. Tune
in next time on chapter three. Otherwise, become a patron
or see you for now. Take care of yourself because
(36:21):
you deserve it.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!