October 6, 2025 • 41 mins
Dr Kirk Honda and Humberto Castaneda dive deep into the JonBenet Ramsey story.
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/KIRK to get 10% off your first month.
00:00 Setting the scene
15:22 The ransom note
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October 6, 2025
The Psychology In Seattle Podcast ®
Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
Disclaimer: The content provided is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only. Nothing here constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis, or creates a counselor-client relationship. Topics discussed may generate differing points of view. If you participate (by being a guest, submitting a question, or commenting) you must do so with the knowledge that we cannot control reactions or responses from others, which may not agree with you or feel unfair. Your participation on this site is at your own risk, accepting full responsibility for any liability or harm that may result. Anything you write here may be used for discussion or endorsement of the podcast. Opinions and views expressed by the host and guest hosts are personal views. Although, we take precautions and fact check, they should not be considered facts and the opinions may change. Opinions posted by participants (such as comments) are not those of the hosts. Readers should not rely on any information found here and should perform due diligence before taking any action. For a more extensive description of factors for you to consider, please see www.psychologyinseattle.com
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/KIRK to get 10% off your first month.
00:00 Setting the scene
15:22 The ransom note
Become a member: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOUZWV1DRtHtpP2H48S7iiw/join
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/PsychologyInSeattle
Email: https://www.psychologyinseattle.com/contact
Website: https://www.psychologyinseattle.com
Merch: https://psychologyinseattle-shop.fourthwall.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/psychologyinseattle/
Facebook Official Page: https://www.facebook.com/PsychologyInSeattle/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kirk.honda
October 6, 2025
The Psychology In Seattle Podcast ®
Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
Disclaimer: The content provided is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only. Nothing here constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis, or creates a counselor-client relationship. Topics discussed may generate differing points of view. If you participate (by being a guest, submitting a question, or commenting) you must do so with the knowledge that we cannot control reactions or responses from others, which may not agree with you or feel unfair. Your participation on this site is at your own risk, accepting full responsibility for any liability or harm that may result. Anything you write here may be used for discussion or endorsement of the podcast. Opinions and views expressed by the host and guest hosts are personal views. Although, we take precautions and fact check, they should not be considered facts and the opinions may change. Opinions posted by participants (such as comments) are not those of the hosts. Readers should not rely on any information found here and should perform due diligence before taking any action. For a more extensive description of factors for you to consider, please see www.psychologyinseattle.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, deservant listeners. Today's episode is the first chapter in
our deep dive on the John Bene Ramsey story. Berto,
you have been doing all the prep. So oh is
it okay? Oh no, oh no, okay, you know.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
It's not a it's not a simple topic.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Okay, Well, let's get into it. My name is doctor Kirkhana.
I'm a therapist and a professor.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
My name is Umberto Cas and I draw pictures of
pretty rainbows.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
And today's episode is the two thousandth audio podcast episode
after seventeen years. We just celebrated our crazy our seventeen thousand. Yeah.
Now the video side of things, I think there's maybe
four thousand.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah, but these are like podcasts.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah yeah, our our plus long. But anyway, I just
thought it'd be kind of you know, and I think
it's fitting you and I here in the studio and
seventeen years and we're doing a deep dive John A. Ramsey,
So a big deal. Man, Let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Start us off, all right, Okay, So almost every video
that I that I've watched, and I've watched so many videos,
almost every channel that does these deep dives on the
John Bay Uh, they always start with the following kind
of disclaimer. This is a super convoluted, crazy story that
no one knows all the answers to. And you know,
(01:28):
it's gonna be so long, and we could do a
billion episodes and we will never get close to anything.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
And that's always the disclaimers.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
And I'm here to tell you, like I know why.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Oh so it's just like a Michael Jackson where are
the camps of people?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
That they are camps and they are camps.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
And of course I'm keeping because you know, like like
sort of what we did with the Menendez brothers is
neither of us knew almost anything about it other than
the name and the general idea like these, and so
it's really interesting. I would call it fun, but except
such a topic. But it was interesting for me to
first of all deep dive and learn because I learned
all these things. And then when we did it, it
was also unfolding for you in real time because you
(02:08):
didn't really know most other things. And I think we're
in a similar boat because I think both of us
don't know much or didn't know much about this.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah. I do remember watching a mini story news story
about this years after the fact, but so.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, that would have been a little more than.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
We Yeah, I know, a girl like a I don't
know how it's five or six? Seven? Was six?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Seven?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Okay was murdered six And I shouldn't smile. She was
murdered and it was brutal and it was horrible. Yes,
and there was a and I know that there was
a question as to whether the parents were the murderers
or not. But that's pretty much all that I know.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
And by the way, this is going to come up again.
We've done these things before. Or sometimes I'm talking about
some gruesome thing and I laugh or smiling, people like
how can you be laughing? And stuff, and you know, people
just have different expressions and different ways to react.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Oftentimes, when I think something.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Is egregious or crazier like or top sometimes my physical
reaction is to be like, hell, you know, like this
kind of thing. So please do believe I don't find
the core thing of what happened here, or pretty much
almost any of those legitimately funny. It's just that there
are some things that are so mind blowing and ridiculous
that I might laugh, and you might think that I'm
laughing at it, But.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, I think another reason why you laugh at times
on the podcast is to lighten the mood. Your role
in life, I think also in your family of origin,
was to be that role to smooth things over, make
everyone happy and okay. And I think as a part
of that, when it's tense, often even just about yourself,
(03:49):
you'll just be talking about something that's tense for yourself
and you feel this, you know, perhaps right headed impulse
to soften the mood for people.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Let out a little steam.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, but for sure you don't have to do that.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah. So I'm going to give the same kind of disclaimer.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
This is something I have watched so many sources, read
so many things. So this happened in nineteen ninety six,
we're coming up on thirty years.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
There are people that have been investigating this since the beginning.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
They have written books, they have done you know. So
there are people who have devoted their lives to this.
And so it's impossible that we are going to cover
everything or get all the fat, little tiny details correct.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
So just brace yourselves.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Just know that, yes, there's going to be a lot
of inaccuracies, not intentional of course, but that you're going
to say, well, I read this other book and it
turns out that this is fair enough.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Fair enough put it in the comments.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
And second, like I've targeted, we're going to do six episodes,
and we literally could just spend the rest of our
podcasting career just doing this. In fact, there are channels
solely dedicated to this topic. Really, that's all they did, right,
I'm intrigued, right, Okay, So first of all, let's talk
about the setting this happened. It was nineteen ninety six, Boulder, Colorado.
(05:08):
Have you ever been to Boulder? No, Okay, I've been
to Boulder. I had a manager who used to live there,
and I went and visited.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
And I know about Boulders. That's where Mork and Mindy was.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Was that in Boulder? I liked that show when I
was a kid.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Oh, I love that show. I had the suspenders. I
had a Nanny Nanny shirt.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Well so, yeah, so this took place in Boulder, Colorado.
Let's start the morning with some tougher bluff. How many
murders do you think had happened already in nineteen ninety
six by the time that this event takes place at
the and this takes place, by the way, December twenty sixth,
So it's at the end of the year.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Just ballpark, ballpark.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yeah, one hundred not a bad guess, But that's like low, right,
it's like a big city.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
But here's the thing, your instincts are right. It had
n't been one hundred. It had been.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Zero, zero recorded, zero record.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Murders up until December twenty sixth.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
That is bizarre.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
So anyway, so that's the context. Boulder. So I've been there.
It's a really nice little area, very granola.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
You know, everyone's riding bikes and everyone's skiing when it's
there's snow out. Everyone's very outdoorsy. So I guess I'm
not surprised, but I am surprised that it would have
been zero.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, that's bizarre, right, I mean you put one hundred
thousand people, which is the population.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Of older and maybe one got angry at them.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Now, just as a as a foreshadowing, what would be
your maybe hunch about how much experience the Boulder Police
Department might have with dealing with murders.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, well, one, even if there were a number of
murders already, These smaller towns tend to have trouble. Even
bigger towns, ye have trouble, but also the professionalism in
the police force in even the nineties wasn't what it
is today.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
So that's the setting. The second part of the setting
here is that family is John Bennett Ramsey Patsy Ramsey.
Those are the parents, and then they have a daughter,
and the son is Burke Ramsey who is nine at
this time, and their daughter John Benay Ramsey, who is
six at the time. John Benay was named after her dad,
John Bennett. And this family is well off. John Bennett
(07:25):
has a company that's like, I think that year have
posted a billion in revenue or something like that. Now
he wasn't a billionaire, but his company was doing really well.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
They were very well off.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
They had like a yacht, they traveled I think in
private planes which either were chartered or something. So nineteen
ninety six, what were you up to in nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Well, I was twenty five, I was in a band,
and I was in the middle of graduate school to
become a therapist. I started ninety five.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Do you remember anything, I mean, like that holiday season,
that Christmas?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Well, do you have any memories.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Of that Christmas? Ninety six?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, this was ninety six.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
No, No, okay, so well, so I should say that
the biggest thing, and it was a big thing for
me and my family, was that Elena was born in
ninety six. Oh they entered the family. Yeah, and Alena
worse for psychology in Seattle. And by the way, they
just got accepted an internship that they're starting. Oh my
(08:21):
gosh January. Yeah, big deal.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
But yeah, nineteen ninety six was when the famous Alena
Honda was born, the future best therapist on the planet.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
That's amazing. What do you remember about computers that year?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
No, I mean not much.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
I did you own a computer?
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, I must have right to write papers for school?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Do you own a PC or a Mac PC?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
And I think it was a Pennium ninety.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Okay, oh that was pretty high end.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Yeah, yeah, I mean for the time, I think, well,
I think at the time I.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Still had a three eighty six d X, which was
before the pentuemes. Yeah, we got to remember a few
things the Internet other than people in call. It's like
like us, like people didn't know about the Internet really yet.
You know, it was there, but it was nowhere near
what it was to become even five years later.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, I didn't know. Yeah, people talk about the Internet
being in the late nineties, and yeah, the Internet existed,
but it was basically useless. Yeah, because there weren't very
many websites. There were business ye kind of things like
behind the scenes for billing or something, but it wasn't
used very much. And email was a thing, but I
(09:31):
would maybe get one email a month because people were
used to calling or just talking to you.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
There was no spam yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, nice things.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
So this is one thing that we're going to have
to keep in mind with this whole case is we're
not talking about an age where everyone's got cell phones,
everyone's got recording you know, recording devices all over the house,
Internet searches, Wikipedia, none of.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
That, None of that. None of what we're talking about
is like tape recorders. Uh oh did you take the
camera out? Did we develop the film? Oh no, the
film's still in there.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Oh we're out of photos. We can't take another photo.
These kinds of situations right now. They this was a
well off family, so they had more devices than your
average maybe family that more recording things things like that.
But because a lot of times folks are like, why
wasn't there a record of this. Why isn't there more pictures?
And that just wasn't as common back then. Okay, So
(10:24):
I want to start by watching a video, and this
is way before this. This is a kind of a
compilation of footage from nineteen ninety three and nineteen eighty.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Four from Christmas.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
And I want to really start with this because this
is going to show us little John Bennet, which at
the end of the day is the thing that no
one disputes, which is that this little, cute, little six
year old future possibilities, full.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Of life girl died. That happened, and so I want
to see her before that. You know.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
So we watched the video, but the audio comes in
and out. And also since a lot of people are
going to be listened to this on an audio podcast,
I'll just have you describe the video that we're watching here.
I mean, it looks like a very typical but you know,
maybe upper class Christmas morning. You have the two parents
and the two young kids, and we see Jean Bene
(11:14):
getting all these dolls, and.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
This footage it would have been from nineteen ninety three,
which means she was four at the time.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
A couple interesting things. Is one of the toys she.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Received that year was a kind of life sized imitation
doll that they would make these dolls, they might still
make them where they were meant to look.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Like well quote exactly like.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So she was.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Holding and those can be quite unnerving. There were reports
later that she actually didn't like that, that it made
her uncomfortable. But anyways, but that was one of the
gifts she got. And then you see but otherwise, like
the footage is like, this looks like a loving family
unwrapping great number of gifts. Yeah, definitely looks they're not
suffering for lack of gifts in that case, but they're
(12:00):
enjoying their Christmas morning. They're wearing their little Christmas sweaters
or their Jammy's and they're having fun on wrapping their gifts.
And this was like if you had seen this footage,
I can't imagine a single person in the world.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
That would look at that footage and be like, oh, yeah,
that little.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Girl, that's something bad's coming their way. You know, like
this looks completely normal and nice.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah. I was thinking about this this morning about at
the center of this story, you have this young person,
very young child that was killed right because up until
this morning when I was really thinking about it. It
almost feels like she's still alive because she's a famous person, right,
but there's a human being, an innocent child that was harmed.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
And it's insane to think that if she were alive,
she'd only be thirty five right now.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
She's like way younger than us. She would just be.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Now entering her mid thirties, you know, like maybe a
professional with maybe a family of her own and things
like this.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Okay, so that's the setup. We have this beautiful family.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
So now here's what happens on December twenty sixth, nineteen
ninety sixth.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
We're gonna run through some important things that lead up
to what happens here.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
At twelve am, a neighbor sees lights at the Ramseys.
So they report later and you know what, they're being
interviewed by the police and whatnot. The neighbor's name is
Scott Gibbons. Looked out his kitchen window at the Ramsey
residence and observed that the upper kitchen lights were on
and dimmed low. Now, a lot of people leave kitchen
lights on, but they they mentioned that this was unusual.
(13:36):
They normally wouldn't see lights at that time, but some context.
They had been at Christmas parties and they were packing
for a trip the next day, and so it's possible
someone was just up and getting some.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Water and stuff.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
So at one am, a different neighbor, Adam Adam and
Luke Vermire went to bed. They said they didn't notice
or hear anything unusual. So this is one am, so
it's kind of a counterfactual. Nothing spec she'll report. But
at two am, a different neighbor, Melody Stanton, hears a scream.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
She goes on to describe this as a little.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Girl's scream at two am in the morning. Now, no
one else can verify this. There's no other neighbors to say, yeah,
I heard that too. The Ramses don't report that. They
say they slept through the night, But this neighbor says
they heard it five thirty am. John Ramsey and Patsy
Ramsey awake. It sounds like John woke up and then
Patsy a few minutes later wakes up.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Can I can I ask the neighbor that heard the scream?
Why was she up at two am? I mean, I'm.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
No she she says she was awakened by the scream.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Wow, that's silly. Because I mean, unless the scream is continued. Yeah,
which did she mention that?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, I mean the idea is that she's screaming.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, and she woke.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Up and she heard and she's like, what is that?
Speaker 3 (14:53):
And she thought it was a little girl scream Now,
and she states that, but she knew that the Ramseys
were home, so then she assumed they would deal with
whatever was happening.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah. The other detail here, I think is that since
they live in a nice neighborhood, there's a lot of
space in between the houses. Right, they're not very close
together us.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Right, Yeah, these are big and we'll go over that
a little later. It's a big house. It's an unusually
big house. Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
So at five thirty am, John Ramsey awakes, Patsy Ramsey awakes.
Now while mister Ramsey's taking a shower, Patsy says, now,
and then we'll get to this. But there's two different
versions of what happens next. Version one, which is the
one that Patsy stood by the rest of her time,
is that she says that she puts on the same
(15:41):
clothes she was wearing the night before. She's don't clear why,
but she says she does that and goes down a
spiral staircase that leads from their bedroom down to.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
The bottom, or from the second floor down to the bottom.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
And at the bottom of the stairs she sees three
pieces of paper and she they're laid out kind of neatly,
and she's confused by it, and she reports reading that.
It says, She starts reading it and says, listen carefully.
We are a group of individuals that represent a small
(16:15):
foreign faction. We do respect your business, but not the
country that it serves. At this time, we have your
daughter in our possession. She is safe and unharmed, and
if you want her to see nineteen ninety seven, you
must follow our instructions to the letter. By the way,
there's a lot more to this note, and we'll get
to that in a bit.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
But that's what the hell? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, so a secret?
Speaker 1 (16:40):
What is it? Foreign? What?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
We will read it and read that again? Yeah, okay,
I'll read this part again. Listen carefully. We are a
group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We
do respect your business.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Wait, can we just drill down on that phrase? A
small foreign faction? What does that even mean? So foreign group?
Speaker 2 (17:04):
These are great questions you're asking.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Like Canadian vegans or something.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, these are great questions. We will talk more about
that in a bit, okay.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
He also they also say we do respect your It's
actually we do respect your.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Boo sinness b o b u s s I b
u s si.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Yeah, instead of buis extra ass Yeah, sinness business bussiness.
At this time, we have your daughter, but not the
country that it serves. At this time, we have your
daughter in our in our sun. So it's one s
on the first one, two s is on the second one.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
She is safe and unharmed.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
And if you want her to see nineteen ninety seven,
you must follow our instructions to the letter. This is
only the beginning of this note.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
By the way.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
But but Patsy Ramsey states that she didn't read the
whole thing. She has also even stated that she's not
even sure she grabbed the note, which is confusing because
I don't know how she read it. She might have
leaned down to read or whatever, but she's unclear in that.
But at the very least, she claims she didn't read
the rest of the note. She says she only read
the first sentence. That couldn't quite because the first sentence
(18:10):
doesn't say that they have the daughter, so she must
have meant the first couple of sentences and that then
she ran upstairs to check on John Benet's room to
see if she was there. There's a different version of
the story that she's actually the one she told the
first two cops on the scene, which was that she
first woke up, went to check in on the kids,
(18:30):
and checked in on John Benet's room, didn't see her, panicked,
ran downstairs, and then saw the note. But anyways, either way,
she comes upstairs, doesn't see John Benay in the bed,
so then she legitimately freaks out and screams. At this point,
John Here's the scream comes out, what's going on? And
she says, you know, she starts saying.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Hey, this is what's happening, blah blah.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
So mister Ramsey goes downstairs and they state that he
starts reading the ransom note.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
So just to not spoil obviously, but by.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
The way, there's no spoiling. There's nothing you can do
that will spoil anything in this case. His case is
so ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
So a lot of these lines I'm gathering that today
in terms of the camps you referred to earlier are
adamantly on one side of the other as to whether
or not the parents killed her. Right is that right?
That's at the very least, and that hasn't been clearly established. No,
a spoiler alert.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
We will go through six episodes, and we could go
through sixty or six hundred, and we will not solve
this case.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Okay, but we might have opinions. Yes. And the reason
why I want to point this out is so that
it's clear as to why you're laying out these stories,
because this is the data that people are pouring over
trying to figure out if it's inconsistencies or that kind of.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
It's funny because when we cover the Menendos brothers, it
wasn't a who done it? Right, it could have been
they could have been adamantly saying it was some intruder.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
There was a why done it?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Essentially exactly, and we still were left with mysteries right
at the end, even after everything, we were left with mysteries.
Oh and by the way, I'm sure you heard that
they didn't get paroled. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So in the
end we were left but the mystery was different, like, well,
what did happen? To them, where are they abuse all
these things? This one is kind of all of the above.
(20:23):
It's a who done it? And why done it? Like
it's you know, okay, so yeah, so this happens. Mister
Ramsey then goes downstairs starts reading the ransom note. According
to them, they have a discussion. Uh he says to
call the police. So she calls the police, and we
will review that.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
That call in a bit.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
But first let's go back to the note because now
mister Ramsey's reading it.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Now, let's take a break.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
First, let's take a break.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
All right, we're back from the break, take it away.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
By So now I'm gonna read this note to you.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
This has been labeled by a lot of police and
people with experience in kidnappings as the longest kidnapping note
that they've seen.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
This thing has no business being this long.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
And I'm laughing because of you'll see you're already seeing
a little bit of the ridiculousness here. But catch this,
so I'll start over. Listen carefully. We are a group
of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We do
respect your buzziness, but not the country that it serves.
At this time, we have your daughter in our possession,
as she is safe and unharmed, and if you want
(21:29):
her to see in nineteen ninety seven, you must follow
our instructions to the letter. You will withdraw one hundred
and eighteen million, oh way, sorry, one hundred and eighteen thousand.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Dollars from your account.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
One hundred thousand will be in one hundred dollars bills
and the remaining eighteen thousand.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
And twenty dollars bills.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to
the bank. When you get home, you will put the
money in a brown paper bag. I will call you
between eight and ten am to more to instruct you
on delivery. The delivery will be exhausting, so I advise.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
You to be rested.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
If we monitor you getting the money early, we might
call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the
money and hence earlier delivery pickup of your daughter. Let
me pause here because I'm not done. But this is
tell me your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Well, it's a tragedy what we're talking about, but this
is like an SNL skit or something like. You might
want to wear socks because it's kind of cold out,
so make sure that you dress appropriately because if you're cold,
then you might not be able to get all the money. Yeah,
(22:45):
you know that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
The delivery will be exhausting.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah. Well, and then bring a big enough attest shay case.
And I'm thinking, so you can give me the briefcase
when no, they're just advising on make sure that you
bring a big enough bag to the bank so that
you can bring all the money home and then you're
going to put it. Then you're gonna put all the
money in a paper bag. I mean, sorry, I'm laughing
(23:11):
about how big of a brown paper because usually when
you think brown paper bag, we're thinking of like a
lunch but if we're talking about a briefcase full of cash,
and it's got to be like a grocery brown paper bag.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Yeah, I mean, one hundred thousand and one hundred dollar
bills is a thousand, hundreds and eighteen and twenties.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
That's a lot of bills.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
And then why one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars And
you were joking earlier, one hundred and eighteen million, So
this is sort of like a doctor evil thing, you know, right,
one million dollars and it's like, okay, did you wake
up from a deep cryo freeze? Now, you know, you
could see someone strategizing that it would be easier to
(23:55):
attain you know, back then a rich person would have
less cashka's inflation blah blah blah. But so you figure, well,
you probably have that much money in the bank. But
it also just is just kind of weird, right, It's
not Yeah, I mean, obviously someone who kills someone is
going to be odd. But then of course I'm projecting
(24:16):
ahead thinking that. Okay, So people are thinking the parents
did it, so they think that they manufactured this this note,
and you think if that was the case, then what
a weird note to make you know the detail of
how long it was right, Like they're proposing the parent
(24:38):
the parents would be saying, well, obviously the guy must
have written the note prior to coming right, right, So
that's particular.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
You would think you do that, right, like like we've
got this plan when I kidnapped this kid. Yeah, okay,
let's figure out that, right. You would think you just
like plan this maybe okay, but it also.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Just kind of sounds like someone who's not right in the.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Head, right, So and that and that could be an
easy that's the technical right in the head.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
That is the definition.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Now, quick question, any guesses or bets or whatever on
why one hundred and eighteen thousand, Why that's specific number.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, well we'll get to there is an answer. So
next prayer.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate
execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her
remains for proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your
daughter do not particularly like you. And by the way,
a couple of little details about the note, because I'm
reading it, but it was hand written.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
We'll get to that.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Earlier, when I said an earlier delivery pickup of your daughter,
delivery was crossed out, and then they wrote pickup like
they said an earlier delivery of your daughter, as if
they said, wait, are you.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Going to deliver the daughter? No, we want him to
pick up.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
So they crossed out delivery and wrote up pick up.
So at the very least you can you can maybe
guess these kidnappers aren't not like veterans of the kidnapping world,
you know, like maybe they haven't been doing this for
twenty years.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Or veterans of the English language but also they mentioned
two men. Oh, the two men meaning.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
You gentlemen watch Well, we don't know how many people
are involved in this conspiracy, right, I thought you gentlemen
watching over your daughter do not particularly like you. And
to another little detail, Oh, really.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
So the kidnappers of my child, they're not like my
best friends, well they could have been, I guess, you know,
they don't particularly like that particularly.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Yeah, we misspell things like, you know, words like buzziness
and puss sean, but we have ataches and we don't.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Particularly like you.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
But you know, yeah, so I'm obviously showing my cards
a little bit.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Well not really, yeah, I mean I don't know what.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
No, I'm just saying, like clearly, you and I both
immediately go like, well.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah, So I have three hypotheses that are developing. One
is that it was the parents and they are constructing
this note. And back then, because of the lack of
the Internet to some extent, you wouldn't be able to
research like what's a typical ransom note, And so they
(27:14):
had maybe a they were trying to play the foreign card,
and they're manufacturing these misspellings, but they can't help but
to reveal terms like attash shay case where most people
would say briefcase or something.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Or or brown paper rag, you.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Know, right, And sometimes people will do this sort of
thing because they're trying to pay off a debt, like
with Fargo the movie you stage something and you're trying
to get money from the other the other spouse or something, right,
or it was the you know, kidnappers and they're just
(27:53):
not bright or seeing individuals, or the kidnappers are bright
and sane and are trying to throw people off the
scent by manufacturing this odd way of speaking or something.
So those are the three hypotheses I have, so.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Yeah, yeah, those are good, Okay. And so the other
thing I was going to add that was another particular thing.
And we're going to look at an image of the
note in a minute. When it says the two gentlemen
watching over your daughter do not particularly like you. They
originally wrote do particularly like you, and then put a
little knot on top between the words do and particularly
(28:29):
like they're writing, and they're like, wait, no, no, they
don't particularly.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
So not.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
So I advise you not to provoke them. Very important
speaking to anyone about your situation such as police, FBI, etc.
Will result in your daughter being beheaded.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Very specific threat.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies.
If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money
is in any way marked or.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Tempered with, she dies.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
You will be scanned for electronic devices, and if any
are found, she dies. You can try to deceive us,
but be warned that we are familiar with law enforcement
counter measures and tactics.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I will say that this sounds legitimately like someone who
kidnapped and they have seen enough movies to know about
wires and this sort of thing, and they're just trying
to get money. I mean, and I would be surprised
if the parents would have that much detail and that specificity, right, yeah,
(29:43):
but maybe they knew to sprinkle that sort of thing.
And you know, but it seems like someone is saying, look,
I need the money. Everything will be fine, but if
you stray from you, if you call the cops, you
talk to a stray dog, like there's also.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
A stray dog.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
There's also kind of a consistent oddness to the speech,
which I'd be curious if either of the parents are
a little odd. But you can also see the parents thinking, ooh,
sprinkle in some weirdness or I don't know, but it
as you're reading it it I'd be surprised if in
nineteen ninety six any sort of suburban parents would be
(30:19):
able to come up with that much specificity in the rout.
Although there are movies that have this sort of thing right,
whether it's a comedy or otherwise. So I don't know,
I don't know. I'm already trying to figure out who
did it.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
You stand a ninety nine percent chance of killing your
daughter if you try to outsmart out smart us, follow
our instructions, and you stand Can you guess one hundred
percent chance of getting her back?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
It's pretty good.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Ninety nine percent chance of killing your daughter or one
hundred percent chance of getting her back. Very clear, You
and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as
the authorities. Don't try to grow a brain, John, You
are not the only fat cat around, so don't think
that killing will be difficult.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
It sounds like, if this is an actual kidnapper, that
he knows the family.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
I'm assuming because it went from it started with a
mister Ramsey sorry at the very top of the note.
It is that mister Ramsey, listen carefully. Here it switches
to don't try to grow a brain, John, You are
not the only fat cat around, So don't think that
killing will be difficult.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
And it would be weird if it wasn't someone that
at least knew the family. Somebody said, because how would
you even know Jean Benet existed? How would you know
how to get into the house? That kind of thing. So,
if it is a kidnapper, it sounds like someone closest.
And I'm also assuming if it is a kidnapper, it's
one person trying to act like they're a group of people.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
It's a it's a small foreign faction. No disrespect to
small foreign faction. Okay, don't underrest have made us, John,
use that good Southern common sense of yours. It is
up to you now, John, exclamation mark, and then it
is signed Victory exclamation mark.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
S B T C.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
I'm guessing we never find out what that.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Means, isn't it obvious? Of course we don't find out. No,
there's a billion theories.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Yeah, I mean, the way it sounds, it's either someone
with some grandiosity, or they're trying to throw people off
the scent, or they're literally delusional and they think in
their state that they are a part of some grand
foreign game called SBTC.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Sb TC Southern Baptist Teutonic Coalition.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Oh so that's the note.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
That's the note that. Wow, that's the note. I'm going
you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
I'm not super into your crime. But yeah, I've never
heard of it.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
No one has ever. Yeah, no one's ever heard of.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
These kinds of normally ransom. So many weird detail point
or they're by the way, it's handritten. It's not the
usual pasting of the little letters from the newspaper or whatever.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
It's hand written. Yeah, okay, I sent you a picture
of the note.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
All right, so what are we looking at here?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Okay, so this is the page one of the note.
Again it was It was in three separate pieces of paper.
By the way, you should know that the pieces of
paper came from a pad of paper that belonged to
the Ramseys that we're in the kitchen. Oh you should
also know that the marker used to write the note
also belongs to the Ramseys.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
There was a felt tip, you.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Know, like a thick kind of marker, uh felt a
pen or whatever, shaky, right, And then you.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Could be interpreted as someone trying to throw someone off
of and really anyone writing it would have that motivation.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
A couple of interesting things.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
If you look at the last page, which is page three,
a lot of people have pointed out that it gets
less shaky.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Towards the towards the latter half, latter parts of the note.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Yeah, so it's almost like someone maybe got tired of
writing with their left or got tired of making it
look bad or whatever. So the other thing about it is,
of course it's handwritten.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
So can't you just do handwriting analysis, well, handwriting analysis.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Mister Honda. In the movies, they do handwriting analysis.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Yeah. Well, what I'll say is the research shows that
for experts in handwriting analysis that they can. Sometimes it helps,
it helps, but it's definitely not a slam dunk.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
And this is where we're at that basically, I'm not
going to spoil too much, but I'm gonna say there's no.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Conclusive proof of who wrote this night, ok, but it
was their pad, and it was their pad. That was much.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
That much is true that muche, which is bizarre because
it's such a long although it was hastily written, because
whoever wrote it was going, oh, I didn't have the
knot in there, so yeah, and there's words, so someone
was writing it because I was thinking, if why not
just rewrite it.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Well, another thing on that, on the same path of paper,
it looked like someone had started the note on a
separate piece of paper because they it said mister and
missus Ramsey and then they apparently decided to just address
it to mister Ramsey. So there was already like a
rough draft that they started and never finished and it
(35:31):
was just a title, and then they started this one.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
And you could also see the parents. I mean, it
would really be a double move for the parents to
use their own pad and pen, because everyone would point
to them as writing the note.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Right yeah, unless you're getting super double smart and we're like,
well yeah, because why would we.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Do that, right right yeah, So that kind of lends
itself to not being the parents.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
The thing that everyone points out about this case, and
I'm going to point out redundantly basically everything else going
to say in this podcast has been said before. But
the thing I'm going to point out is that everything
you feel you could get your finger on, you're like, okay, okay,
I've got a thing. Someone can point or like move
it slightly out of focus and you're like, oh, no,
you're right, that's a different way.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
I mean, certainly there's no slam dunkinization of anything at
this point.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Yeah, yeah, okay, but anyway, so yeah, so what we
see here is a handwritten note, and like we said,
like you pointed out, and everyone's noticed this as well,
at the start of the note it seems a lot
more shaky, a lot, and maybe that goes along with
the mental state of the person as they start whatever.
The other thing to note is that they signed it specifically, right.
(36:44):
I mean, obviously it wasn't specifically like my name is
blah blah blah, you could find me at this address,
but they did sign it, and and that to me,
I could go many ways with it. But one of
them would be like, well, maybe that's in the mythology
whoever's writing this, They're like, well, it's gotta be some
foreign faction. But if we like name made explicitly, they
could like try to investigate that and then be so,
(37:04):
why don't we just call it something that no one
can figure out, you know, or it is a little
easter egg or something like it's so bizarre yeah, yeah, okay, So.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I mean it sounds like this person, if it was
not the parents, is not a serial criminal. Yeah. So certainly,
either the person is grandiose, like I said, in a
manicked state, they're like I am this awesome foreign faction,
or delusional, or they're trying to throw people off the scent,
(37:37):
you know.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Or they are a foreign faction that's never done this
before and they're just getting their their start. You know,
you could got to be a little bit, you know,
you can't expect foreign factions to be it is a foreign.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Faction, they're not extremely sophisticated, right.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Well it's a small form, right.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
It's the Canadian vegans.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Hey, don't throw our vegan bros On. Okay, what it's
a you to learn that when you go through the note.
I mean you pointed this out. There are some almost
literal quotes that come from movies.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Uh no, I did, it was there?
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Well, so here's the list. Other people have pointed more
and stuff like that. Some of these are stretches, for sure,
but some of them are literally. Okay, so in the
note it says don't try to grow a brain John, Okay.
In Speed, which is a nineteen ninety four movie. They
the what's his Name? Dennis Hopper says, yeah, do not
(38:32):
attempt to grow a brain. It's a very specific kind
of thing.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
I was that a common saying when we were growing up, like, dude,
don't try to grow a brain.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
I remember that.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
It's kind of specific.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
He says that to what's your face? Yeah, to miscongeniality.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Okay, the second part, you will withdraw one hundred eighteen
thousand from your account. One hundred thousand will be in
one hundred dollars bills remaining blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
If the money is in any way mark temper with
she dies. Okay.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Ruthless people, which you were saying and comedies, right, ruthless people,
has you know, put it in a black briefcase. You
will place five hundred thousand dollars in unmarked, non sequentially
numbered So it's not exact quote, but people were pointing out,
like I feel like someone like you said, like someone
watched a lot of movies, and I think this is
how you do it. But there is another ruthless people
(39:22):
part that's even closer, which is that they say you know,
any deviation my instructions will resolved from the media execution
of your daughter. Speaking twenty one with a situation, And
in Ruthless People it says, if you notice, you notify
the police, your wife will be killed. If you notify
the media, she will be killed. If you deviate for
my instructions in any way whatsoever, she will be killed.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
So that kind of like refrain of she will be killed,
she will be killed. She will be killed. It comes
from Ruthless People.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
The one dirty Hairy thing that does ring like someone
was referencing it is if we catch you talking to
a straight dog, she dies. And in Dirty Harry there's
a if you talk to anyone, I don't care if
it's a Pekinese pissing against a lamppost, the girls dies.
So it's one of these, like you say Peccanese, Peccanese, Pekinese.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Is that you said it's a dog? I guess, yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
So in Dirty Harry there's a reference like if you
talk to a dog, she dies. I mean they add
more words, so.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
I mean, well, that was a very specific line in
the note that seems like they're unconsciously you know, so
I would stray dog.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
What was this foreign faction small foreign faction a fan
of American movies and they were well, let's pepper it in.
Or was this person who's not right in the head
a fan of movies and like this is how it's done.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Or were the parents trying to throw people off the
scent by having movie quotes? Yeah, or the parents watching
these movies. I mean, I guess that would be the thing.
If they had rented Ruthless People and Dirty Harry and
Speed vhs in the last six months, then that wouldn't
help their case.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
I guess, right, right right, it's kind of crazy.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Okay, So I want to do let's take a break
and this. Yeah, as usual, since the patrons are the
ones that request these kinds of episodes and they literally
pay my bills, we want to reward them with the
full episode of each chapter. So we'll take a break
of this. The rest of this episode will be for
patrons of the podcast.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
That's right, and in this episode, in this part of
the episode, we're going to find all about like once
the police and the FBI get involved, like the search,
the massive search for Jon Bnay.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Okay, So, but if you're not a patron, we'll say
goodbye for now. Tune in next time when we continue
with chapter two. When everyone out there, please take care
of yourself because you deserve it.
Hey, deservant listeners. Today's episode is the first chapter in
our deep dive on the John Bene Ramsey story. Berto,
you have been doing all the prep. So oh is
it okay? Oh no, oh no, okay, you know.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
It's not a it's not a simple topic.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Okay, Well, let's get into it. My name is doctor Kirkhana.
I'm a therapist and a professor.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
My name is Umberto Cas and I draw pictures of
pretty rainbows.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
And today's episode is the two thousandth audio podcast episode
after seventeen years. We just celebrated our crazy our seventeen thousand. Yeah.
Now the video side of things, I think there's maybe
four thousand.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah, but these are like podcasts.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah yeah, our our plus long. But anyway, I just
thought it'd be kind of you know, and I think
it's fitting you and I here in the studio and
seventeen years and we're doing a deep dive John A. Ramsey,
So a big deal. Man, Let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Start us off, all right, Okay, So almost every video
that I that I've watched, and I've watched so many videos,
almost every channel that does these deep dives on the
John Bay Uh, they always start with the following kind
of disclaimer. This is a super convoluted, crazy story that
no one knows all the answers to. And you know,
(01:28):
it's gonna be so long, and we could do a
billion episodes and we will never get close to anything.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
And that's always the disclaimers.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
And I'm here to tell you, like I know why.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Oh so it's just like a Michael Jackson where are
the camps of people?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
That they are camps and they are camps.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
And of course I'm keeping because you know, like like
sort of what we did with the Menendez brothers is
neither of us knew almost anything about it other than
the name and the general idea like these, and so
it's really interesting. I would call it fun, but except
such a topic. But it was interesting for me to
first of all deep dive and learn because I learned
all these things. And then when we did it, it
was also unfolding for you in real time because you
(02:08):
didn't really know most other things. And I think we're
in a similar boat because I think both of us
don't know much or didn't know much about this.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah. I do remember watching a mini story news story
about this years after the fact, but so.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, that would have been a little more than.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
We Yeah, I know, a girl like a I don't
know how it's five or six? Seven? Was six?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Seven?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Okay was murdered six And I shouldn't smile. She was
murdered and it was brutal and it was horrible. Yes,
and there was a and I know that there was
a question as to whether the parents were the murderers
or not. But that's pretty much all that I know.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
And by the way, this is going to come up again.
We've done these things before. Or sometimes I'm talking about
some gruesome thing and I laugh or smiling, people like
how can you be laughing? And stuff, and you know, people
just have different expressions and different ways to react.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Oftentimes, when I think something.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Is egregious or crazier like or top sometimes my physical
reaction is to be like, hell, you know, like this
kind of thing. So please do believe I don't find
the core thing of what happened here, or pretty much
almost any of those legitimately funny. It's just that there
are some things that are so mind blowing and ridiculous
that I might laugh, and you might think that I'm
laughing at it, But.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, I think another reason why you laugh at times
on the podcast is to lighten the mood. Your role
in life, I think also in your family of origin,
was to be that role to smooth things over, make
everyone happy and okay. And I think as a part
of that, when it's tense, often even just about yourself,
(03:49):
you'll just be talking about something that's tense for yourself
and you feel this, you know, perhaps right headed impulse
to soften the mood for people.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Let out a little steam.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, but for sure you don't have to do that.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah. So I'm going to give the same kind of disclaimer.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
This is something I have watched so many sources, read
so many things. So this happened in nineteen ninety six,
we're coming up on thirty years.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
There are people that have been investigating this since the beginning.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
They have written books, they have done you know. So
there are people who have devoted their lives to this.
And so it's impossible that we are going to cover
everything or get all the fat, little tiny details correct.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
So just brace yourselves.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Just know that, yes, there's going to be a lot
of inaccuracies, not intentional of course, but that you're going
to say, well, I read this other book and it
turns out that this is fair enough.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Fair enough put it in the comments.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
And second, like I've targeted, we're going to do six episodes,
and we literally could just spend the rest of our
podcasting career just doing this. In fact, there are channels
solely dedicated to this topic. Really, that's all they did, right,
I'm intrigued, right, Okay, So first of all, let's talk
about the setting this happened. It was nineteen ninety six, Boulder, Colorado.
(05:08):
Have you ever been to Boulder? No, Okay, I've been
to Boulder. I had a manager who used to live there,
and I went and visited.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
And I know about Boulders. That's where Mork and Mindy was.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Was that in Boulder? I liked that show when I
was a kid.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Oh, I love that show. I had the suspenders. I
had a Nanny Nanny shirt.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Well so, yeah, so this took place in Boulder, Colorado.
Let's start the morning with some tougher bluff. How many
murders do you think had happened already in nineteen ninety
six by the time that this event takes place at
the and this takes place, by the way, December twenty sixth,
So it's at the end of the year.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Just ballpark, ballpark.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yeah, one hundred not a bad guess, But that's like low, right,
it's like a big city.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
But here's the thing, your instincts are right. It had
n't been one hundred. It had been.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Zero, zero recorded, zero record.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Murders up until December twenty sixth.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
That is bizarre.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
So anyway, so that's the context. Boulder. So I've been there.
It's a really nice little area, very granola.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
You know, everyone's riding bikes and everyone's skiing when it's
there's snow out. Everyone's very outdoorsy. So I guess I'm
not surprised, but I am surprised that it would have
been zero.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, that's bizarre, right, I mean you put one hundred
thousand people, which is the population.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Of older and maybe one got angry at them.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Now, just as a as a foreshadowing, what would be
your maybe hunch about how much experience the Boulder Police
Department might have with dealing with murders.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, well, one, even if there were a number of
murders already, These smaller towns tend to have trouble. Even
bigger towns, ye have trouble, but also the professionalism in
the police force in even the nineties wasn't what it
is today.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
So that's the setting. The second part of the setting
here is that family is John Bennett Ramsey Patsy Ramsey.
Those are the parents, and then they have a daughter,
and the son is Burke Ramsey who is nine at
this time, and their daughter John Benay Ramsey, who is
six at the time. John Benay was named after her dad,
John Bennett. And this family is well off. John Bennett
(07:25):
has a company that's like, I think that year have
posted a billion in revenue or something like that. Now
he wasn't a billionaire, but his company was doing really well.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
They were very well off.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
They had like a yacht, they traveled I think in
private planes which either were chartered or something. So nineteen
ninety six, what were you up to in nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Well, I was twenty five, I was in a band,
and I was in the middle of graduate school to
become a therapist. I started ninety five.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Do you remember anything, I mean, like that holiday season,
that Christmas?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Well, do you have any memories.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Of that Christmas? Ninety six?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, this was ninety six.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
No, No, okay, so well, so I should say that
the biggest thing, and it was a big thing for
me and my family, was that Elena was born in
ninety six. Oh they entered the family. Yeah, and Alena
worse for psychology in Seattle. And by the way, they
just got accepted an internship that they're starting. Oh my
(08:21):
gosh January. Yeah, big deal.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
But yeah, nineteen ninety six was when the famous Alena
Honda was born, the future best therapist on the planet.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
That's amazing. What do you remember about computers that year?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
No, I mean not much.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
I did you own a computer?
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, I must have right to write papers for school?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Do you own a PC or a Mac PC?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
And I think it was a Pennium ninety.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Okay, oh that was pretty high end.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Yeah, yeah, I mean for the time, I think, well,
I think at the time I.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Still had a three eighty six d X, which was
before the pentuemes. Yeah, we got to remember a few
things the Internet other than people in call. It's like
like us, like people didn't know about the Internet really yet.
You know, it was there, but it was nowhere near
what it was to become even five years later.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, I didn't know. Yeah, people talk about the Internet
being in the late nineties, and yeah, the Internet existed,
but it was basically useless. Yeah, because there weren't very
many websites. There were business ye kind of things like
behind the scenes for billing or something, but it wasn't
used very much. And email was a thing, but I
(09:31):
would maybe get one email a month because people were
used to calling or just talking to you.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
There was no spam yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, nice things.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
So this is one thing that we're going to have
to keep in mind with this whole case is we're
not talking about an age where everyone's got cell phones,
everyone's got recording you know, recording devices all over the house,
Internet searches, Wikipedia, none of.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
That, None of that. None of what we're talking about
is like tape recorders. Uh oh did you take the
camera out? Did we develop the film? Oh no, the
film's still in there.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Oh we're out of photos. We can't take another photo.
These kinds of situations right now. They this was a
well off family, so they had more devices than your
average maybe family that more recording things things like that.
But because a lot of times folks are like, why
wasn't there a record of this. Why isn't there more pictures?
And that just wasn't as common back then. Okay, So
(10:24):
I want to start by watching a video, and this
is way before this. This is a kind of a
compilation of footage from nineteen ninety three and nineteen eighty.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Four from Christmas.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
And I want to really start with this because this
is going to show us little John Bennet, which at
the end of the day is the thing that no
one disputes, which is that this little, cute, little six
year old future possibilities, full.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Of life girl died. That happened, and so I want
to see her before that. You know.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
So we watched the video, but the audio comes in
and out. And also since a lot of people are
going to be listened to this on an audio podcast,
I'll just have you describe the video that we're watching here.
I mean, it looks like a very typical but you know,
maybe upper class Christmas morning. You have the two parents
and the two young kids, and we see Jean Bene
(11:14):
getting all these dolls, and.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
This footage it would have been from nineteen ninety three,
which means she was four at the time.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
A couple interesting things. Is one of the toys she.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Received that year was a kind of life sized imitation
doll that they would make these dolls, they might still
make them where they were meant to look.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Like well quote exactly like.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So she was.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Holding and those can be quite unnerving. There were reports
later that she actually didn't like that, that it made
her uncomfortable. But anyways, but that was one of the
gifts she got. And then you see but otherwise, like
the footage is like, this looks like a loving family
unwrapping great number of gifts. Yeah, definitely looks they're not
suffering for lack of gifts in that case, but they're
(12:00):
enjoying their Christmas morning. They're wearing their little Christmas sweaters
or their Jammy's and they're having fun on wrapping their gifts.
And this was like if you had seen this footage,
I can't imagine a single person in the world.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
That would look at that footage and be like, oh, yeah,
that little.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Girl, that's something bad's coming their way. You know, like
this looks completely normal and nice.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah. I was thinking about this this morning about at
the center of this story, you have this young person,
very young child that was killed right because up until
this morning when I was really thinking about it. It
almost feels like she's still alive because she's a famous person, right,
but there's a human being, an innocent child that was harmed.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
And it's insane to think that if she were alive,
she'd only be thirty five right now.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
She's like way younger than us. She would just be.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Now entering her mid thirties, you know, like maybe a
professional with maybe a family of her own and things
like this.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Okay, so that's the setup. We have this beautiful family.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
So now here's what happens on December twenty sixth, nineteen
ninety sixth.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
We're gonna run through some important things that lead up
to what happens here.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
At twelve am, a neighbor sees lights at the Ramseys.
So they report later and you know what, they're being
interviewed by the police and whatnot. The neighbor's name is
Scott Gibbons. Looked out his kitchen window at the Ramsey
residence and observed that the upper kitchen lights were on
and dimmed low. Now, a lot of people leave kitchen
lights on, but they they mentioned that this was unusual.
(13:36):
They normally wouldn't see lights at that time, but some context.
They had been at Christmas parties and they were packing
for a trip the next day, and so it's possible
someone was just up and getting some.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Water and stuff.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
So at one am, a different neighbor, Adam Adam and
Luke Vermire went to bed. They said they didn't notice
or hear anything unusual. So this is one am, so
it's kind of a counterfactual. Nothing spec she'll report. But
at two am, a different neighbor, Melody Stanton, hears a scream.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
She goes on to describe this as a little.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Girl's scream at two am in the morning. Now, no
one else can verify this. There's no other neighbors to say, yeah,
I heard that too. The Ramses don't report that. They
say they slept through the night, But this neighbor says
they heard it five thirty am. John Ramsey and Patsy
Ramsey awake. It sounds like John woke up and then
Patsy a few minutes later wakes up.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Can I can I ask the neighbor that heard the scream?
Why was she up at two am? I mean, I'm.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
No she she says she was awakened by the scream.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Wow, that's silly. Because I mean, unless the scream is continued. Yeah,
which did she mention that?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, I mean the idea is that she's screaming.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, and she woke.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Up and she heard and she's like, what is that?
Speaker 3 (14:53):
And she thought it was a little girl scream Now,
and she states that, but she knew that the Ramseys
were home, so then she assumed they would deal with
whatever was happening.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah. The other detail here, I think is that since
they live in a nice neighborhood, there's a lot of
space in between the houses. Right, they're not very close
together us.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Right, Yeah, these are big and we'll go over that
a little later. It's a big house. It's an unusually
big house. Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
So at five thirty am, John Ramsey awakes, Patsy Ramsey awakes.
Now while mister Ramsey's taking a shower, Patsy says, now,
and then we'll get to this. But there's two different
versions of what happens next. Version one, which is the
one that Patsy stood by the rest of her time,
is that she says that she puts on the same
(15:41):
clothes she was wearing the night before. She's don't clear why,
but she says she does that and goes down a
spiral staircase that leads from their bedroom down to.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
The bottom, or from the second floor down to the bottom.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
And at the bottom of the stairs she sees three
pieces of paper and she they're laid out kind of neatly,
and she's confused by it, and she reports reading that.
It says, She starts reading it and says, listen carefully.
We are a group of individuals that represent a small
(16:15):
foreign faction. We do respect your business, but not the
country that it serves. At this time, we have your
daughter in our possession. She is safe and unharmed, and
if you want her to see nineteen ninety seven, you
must follow our instructions to the letter. By the way,
there's a lot more to this note, and we'll get
to that in a bit.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
But that's what the hell? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, so a secret?
Speaker 1 (16:40):
What is it? Foreign? What?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
We will read it and read that again? Yeah, okay,
I'll read this part again. Listen carefully. We are a
group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We
do respect your business.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Wait, can we just drill down on that phrase? A
small foreign faction? What does that even mean? So foreign group?
Speaker 2 (17:04):
These are great questions you're asking.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Like Canadian vegans or something.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, these are great questions. We will talk more about
that in a bit, okay.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
He also they also say we do respect your It's
actually we do respect your.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Boo sinness b o b u s s I b
u s si.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Yeah, instead of buis extra ass Yeah, sinness business bussiness.
At this time, we have your daughter, but not the
country that it serves. At this time, we have your
daughter in our in our sun. So it's one s
on the first one, two s is on the second one.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
She is safe and unharmed.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
And if you want her to see nineteen ninety seven,
you must follow our instructions to the letter. This is
only the beginning of this note.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
By the way.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
But but Patsy Ramsey states that she didn't read the
whole thing. She has also even stated that she's not
even sure she grabbed the note, which is confusing because
I don't know how she read it. She might have
leaned down to read or whatever, but she's unclear in that.
But at the very least, she claims she didn't read
the rest of the note. She says she only read
the first sentence. That couldn't quite because the first sentence
(18:10):
doesn't say that they have the daughter, so she must
have meant the first couple of sentences and that then
she ran upstairs to check on John Benet's room to
see if she was there. There's a different version of
the story that she's actually the one she told the
first two cops on the scene, which was that she
first woke up, went to check in on the kids,
(18:30):
and checked in on John Benet's room, didn't see her, panicked,
ran downstairs, and then saw the note. But anyways, either way,
she comes upstairs, doesn't see John Benay in the bed,
so then she legitimately freaks out and screams. At this point,
John Here's the scream comes out, what's going on? And
she says, you know, she starts saying.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Hey, this is what's happening, blah blah.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
So mister Ramsey goes downstairs and they state that he
starts reading the ransom note.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
So just to not spoil obviously, but by.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
The way, there's no spoiling. There's nothing you can do
that will spoil anything in this case. His case is
so ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
So a lot of these lines I'm gathering that today
in terms of the camps you referred to earlier are
adamantly on one side of the other as to whether
or not the parents killed her. Right is that right?
That's at the very least, and that hasn't been clearly established. No,
a spoiler alert.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
We will go through six episodes, and we could go
through sixty or six hundred, and we will not solve
this case.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Okay, but we might have opinions. Yes. And the reason
why I want to point this out is so that
it's clear as to why you're laying out these stories,
because this is the data that people are pouring over
trying to figure out if it's inconsistencies or that kind of.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
It's funny because when we cover the Menendos brothers, it
wasn't a who done it? Right, it could have been
they could have been adamantly saying it was some intruder.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
There was a why done it?
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Essentially exactly, and we still were left with mysteries right
at the end, even after everything, we were left with mysteries.
Oh and by the way, I'm sure you heard that
they didn't get paroled. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So in the
end we were left but the mystery was different, like, well,
what did happen? To them, where are they abuse all
these things? This one is kind of all of the above.
(20:23):
It's a who done it? And why done it? Like
it's you know, okay, so yeah, so this happens. Mister
Ramsey then goes downstairs starts reading the ransom note. According
to them, they have a discussion. Uh he says to
call the police. So she calls the police, and we
will review that.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
That call in a bit.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
But first let's go back to the note because now
mister Ramsey's reading it.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Now, let's take a break.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
First, let's take a break.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
All right, we're back from the break, take it away.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
By So now I'm gonna read this note to you.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
This has been labeled by a lot of police and
people with experience in kidnappings as the longest kidnapping note
that they've seen.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
This thing has no business being this long.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
And I'm laughing because of you'll see you're already seeing
a little bit of the ridiculousness here. But catch this,
so I'll start over. Listen carefully. We are a group
of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We do
respect your buzziness, but not the country that it serves.
At this time, we have your daughter in our possession,
as she is safe and unharmed, and if you want
(21:29):
her to see in nineteen ninety seven, you must follow
our instructions to the letter. You will withdraw one hundred
and eighteen million, oh way, sorry, one hundred and eighteen thousand.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Dollars from your account.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
One hundred thousand will be in one hundred dollars bills
and the remaining eighteen thousand.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
And twenty dollars bills.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to
the bank. When you get home, you will put the
money in a brown paper bag. I will call you
between eight and ten am to more to instruct you
on delivery. The delivery will be exhausting, so I advise.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
You to be rested.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
If we monitor you getting the money early, we might
call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the
money and hence earlier delivery pickup of your daughter. Let
me pause here because I'm not done. But this is
tell me your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Well, it's a tragedy what we're talking about, but this
is like an SNL skit or something like. You might
want to wear socks because it's kind of cold out,
so make sure that you dress appropriately because if you're cold,
then you might not be able to get all the money. Yeah,
(22:45):
you know that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
The delivery will be exhausting.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah. Well, and then bring a big enough attest shay case.
And I'm thinking, so you can give me the briefcase
when no, they're just advising on make sure that you
bring a big enough bag to the bank so that
you can bring all the money home and then you're
going to put it. Then you're gonna put all the
money in a paper bag. I mean, sorry, I'm laughing
(23:11):
about how big of a brown paper because usually when
you think brown paper bag, we're thinking of like a
lunch but if we're talking about a briefcase full of cash,
and it's got to be like a grocery brown paper bag.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Yeah, I mean, one hundred thousand and one hundred dollar
bills is a thousand, hundreds and eighteen and twenties.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
That's a lot of bills.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
And then why one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars And
you were joking earlier, one hundred and eighteen million, So
this is sort of like a doctor evil thing, you know, right,
one million dollars and it's like, okay, did you wake
up from a deep cryo freeze? Now, you know, you
could see someone strategizing that it would be easier to
(23:55):
attain you know, back then a rich person would have
less cashka's inflation blah blah blah. But so you figure, well,
you probably have that much money in the bank. But
it also just is just kind of weird, right, It's
not Yeah, I mean, obviously someone who kills someone is
going to be odd. But then of course I'm projecting
(24:16):
ahead thinking that. Okay, So people are thinking the parents
did it, so they think that they manufactured this this note,
and you think if that was the case, then what
a weird note to make you know the detail of
how long it was right, Like they're proposing the parent
(24:38):
the parents would be saying, well, obviously the guy must
have written the note prior to coming right, right, So
that's particular.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
You would think you do that, right, like like we've
got this plan when I kidnapped this kid. Yeah, okay,
let's figure out that, right. You would think you just
like plan this maybe okay, but it also.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Just kind of sounds like someone who's not right in the.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Head, right, So and that and that could be an
easy that's the technical right in the head.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
That is the definition.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Now, quick question, any guesses or bets or whatever on
why one hundred and eighteen thousand, Why that's specific number.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, well we'll get to there is an answer. So
next prayer.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate
execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her
remains for proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your
daughter do not particularly like you. And by the way,
a couple of little details about the note, because I'm
reading it, but it was hand written.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
We'll get to that.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Earlier, when I said an earlier delivery pickup of your daughter,
delivery was crossed out, and then they wrote pickup like
they said an earlier delivery of your daughter, as if
they said, wait, are you.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Going to deliver the daughter? No, we want him to
pick up.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
So they crossed out delivery and wrote up pick up.
So at the very least you can you can maybe
guess these kidnappers aren't not like veterans of the kidnapping world,
you know, like maybe they haven't been doing this for
twenty years.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Or veterans of the English language but also they mentioned
two men. Oh, the two men meaning.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
You gentlemen watch Well, we don't know how many people
are involved in this conspiracy, right, I thought you gentlemen
watching over your daughter do not particularly like you. And
to another little detail, Oh, really.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
So the kidnappers of my child, they're not like my
best friends, well they could have been, I guess, you know,
they don't particularly like that particularly.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Yeah, we misspell things like, you know, words like buzziness
and puss sean, but we have ataches and we don't.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Particularly like you.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
But you know, yeah, so I'm obviously showing my cards
a little bit.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Well not really, yeah, I mean I don't know what.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
No, I'm just saying, like clearly, you and I both
immediately go like, well.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah, So I have three hypotheses that are developing. One
is that it was the parents and they are constructing
this note. And back then, because of the lack of
the Internet to some extent, you wouldn't be able to
research like what's a typical ransom note, And so they
(27:14):
had maybe a they were trying to play the foreign card,
and they're manufacturing these misspellings, but they can't help but
to reveal terms like attash shay case where most people
would say briefcase or something.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Or or brown paper rag, you.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Know, right, And sometimes people will do this sort of
thing because they're trying to pay off a debt, like
with Fargo the movie you stage something and you're trying
to get money from the other the other spouse or something, right,
or it was the you know, kidnappers and they're just
(27:53):
not bright or seeing individuals, or the kidnappers are bright
and sane and are trying to throw people off the
scent by manufacturing this odd way of speaking or something.
So those are the three hypotheses I have, so.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Yeah, yeah, those are good, Okay. And so the other
thing I was going to add that was another particular thing.
And we're going to look at an image of the
note in a minute. When it says the two gentlemen
watching over your daughter do not particularly like you. They
originally wrote do particularly like you, and then put a
little knot on top between the words do and particularly
(28:29):
like they're writing, and they're like, wait, no, no, they
don't particularly.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
So not.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
So I advise you not to provoke them. Very important
speaking to anyone about your situation such as police, FBI, etc.
Will result in your daughter being beheaded.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Very specific threat.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies.
If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money
is in any way marked or.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Tempered with, she dies.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
You will be scanned for electronic devices, and if any
are found, she dies. You can try to deceive us,
but be warned that we are familiar with law enforcement
counter measures and tactics.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I will say that this sounds legitimately like someone who
kidnapped and they have seen enough movies to know about
wires and this sort of thing, and they're just trying
to get money. I mean, and I would be surprised
if the parents would have that much detail and that specificity, right, yeah,
(29:43):
but maybe they knew to sprinkle that sort of thing.
And you know, but it seems like someone is saying, look,
I need the money. Everything will be fine, but if
you stray from you, if you call the cops, you
talk to a stray dog, like there's also.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
A stray dog.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
There's also kind of a consistent oddness to the speech,
which I'd be curious if either of the parents are
a little odd. But you can also see the parents thinking, ooh,
sprinkle in some weirdness or I don't know, but it
as you're reading it it I'd be surprised if in
nineteen ninety six any sort of suburban parents would be
(30:19):
able to come up with that much specificity in the rout.
Although there are movies that have this sort of thing right,
whether it's a comedy or otherwise. So I don't know,
I don't know. I'm already trying to figure out who
did it.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
You stand a ninety nine percent chance of killing your
daughter if you try to outsmart out smart us, follow
our instructions, and you stand Can you guess one hundred
percent chance of getting her back?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
It's pretty good.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Ninety nine percent chance of killing your daughter or one
hundred percent chance of getting her back. Very clear, You
and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as
the authorities. Don't try to grow a brain, John, You
are not the only fat cat around, so don't think
that killing will be difficult.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
It sounds like, if this is an actual kidnapper, that
he knows the family.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
I'm assuming because it went from it started with a
mister Ramsey sorry at the very top of the note.
It is that mister Ramsey, listen carefully. Here it switches
to don't try to grow a brain, John, You are
not the only fat cat around, So don't think that
killing will be difficult.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
And it would be weird if it wasn't someone that
at least knew the family. Somebody said, because how would
you even know Jean Benet existed? How would you know
how to get into the house? That kind of thing. So,
if it is a kidnapper, it sounds like someone closest.
And I'm also assuming if it is a kidnapper, it's
one person trying to act like they're a group of people.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
It's a it's a small foreign faction. No disrespect to
small foreign faction. Okay, don't underrest have made us, John,
use that good Southern common sense of yours. It is
up to you now, John, exclamation mark, and then it
is signed Victory exclamation mark.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
S B T C.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
I'm guessing we never find out what that.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Means, isn't it obvious? Of course we don't find out. No,
there's a billion theories.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Yeah, I mean, the way it sounds, it's either someone
with some grandiosity, or they're trying to throw people off
the scent, or they're literally delusional and they think in
their state that they are a part of some grand
foreign game called SBTC.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Sb TC Southern Baptist Teutonic Coalition.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Oh so that's the note.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
That's the note that. Wow, that's the note. I'm going
you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
I'm not super into your crime. But yeah, I've never
heard of it.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
No one has ever. Yeah, no one's ever heard of.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
These kinds of normally ransom. So many weird detail point
or they're by the way, it's handritten. It's not the
usual pasting of the little letters from the newspaper or whatever.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
It's hand written. Yeah, okay, I sent you a picture
of the note.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
All right, so what are we looking at here?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Okay, so this is the page one of the note.
Again it was It was in three separate pieces of paper.
By the way, you should know that the pieces of
paper came from a pad of paper that belonged to
the Ramseys that we're in the kitchen. Oh you should
also know that the marker used to write the note
also belongs to the Ramseys.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
There was a felt tip, you.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Know, like a thick kind of marker, uh felt a
pen or whatever, shaky, right, And then you.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Could be interpreted as someone trying to throw someone off
of and really anyone writing it would have that motivation.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
A couple of interesting things.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
If you look at the last page, which is page three,
a lot of people have pointed out that it gets
less shaky.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Towards the towards the latter half, latter parts of the note.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Yeah, so it's almost like someone maybe got tired of
writing with their left or got tired of making it
look bad or whatever. So the other thing about it is,
of course it's handwritten.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
So can't you just do handwriting analysis, well, handwriting analysis.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Mister Honda. In the movies, they do handwriting analysis.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Yeah. Well, what I'll say is the research shows that
for experts in handwriting analysis that they can. Sometimes it helps,
it helps, but it's definitely not a slam dunk.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
And this is where we're at that basically, I'm not
going to spoil too much, but I'm gonna say there's no.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Conclusive proof of who wrote this night, ok, but it
was their pad, and it was their pad. That was much.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
That much is true that muche, which is bizarre because
it's such a long although it was hastily written, because
whoever wrote it was going, oh, I didn't have the
knot in there, so yeah, and there's words, so someone
was writing it because I was thinking, if why not
just rewrite it.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Well, another thing on that, on the same path of paper,
it looked like someone had started the note on a
separate piece of paper because they it said mister and
missus Ramsey and then they apparently decided to just address
it to mister Ramsey. So there was already like a
rough draft that they started and never finished and it
(35:31):
was just a title, and then they started this one.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
And you could also see the parents. I mean, it
would really be a double move for the parents to
use their own pad and pen, because everyone would point
to them as writing the note.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Right yeah, unless you're getting super double smart and we're like,
well yeah, because why would we.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Do that, right right yeah, So that kind of lends
itself to not being the parents.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
The thing that everyone points out about this case, and
I'm going to point out redundantly basically everything else going
to say in this podcast has been said before. But
the thing I'm going to point out is that everything
you feel you could get your finger on, you're like, okay, okay,
I've got a thing. Someone can point or like move
it slightly out of focus and you're like, oh, no,
you're right, that's a different way.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
I mean, certainly there's no slam dunkinization of anything at
this point.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Yeah, yeah, okay, but anyway, so yeah, so what we
see here is a handwritten note, and like we said,
like you pointed out, and everyone's noticed this as well,
at the start of the note it seems a lot
more shaky, a lot, and maybe that goes along with
the mental state of the person as they start whatever.
The other thing to note is that they signed it specifically, right.
(36:44):
I mean, obviously it wasn't specifically like my name is
blah blah blah, you could find me at this address,
but they did sign it, and and that to me,
I could go many ways with it. But one of
them would be like, well, maybe that's in the mythology
whoever's writing this, They're like, well, it's gotta be some
foreign faction. But if we like name made explicitly, they
could like try to investigate that and then be so,
(37:04):
why don't we just call it something that no one
can figure out, you know, or it is a little
easter egg or something like it's so bizarre yeah, yeah, okay, So.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I mean it sounds like this person, if it was
not the parents, is not a serial criminal. Yeah. So certainly,
either the person is grandiose, like I said, in a
manicked state, they're like I am this awesome foreign faction,
or delusional, or they're trying to throw people off the scent,
(37:37):
you know.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Or they are a foreign faction that's never done this
before and they're just getting their their start. You know,
you could got to be a little bit, you know,
you can't expect foreign factions to be it is a foreign.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Faction, they're not extremely sophisticated, right.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Well it's a small form, right.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
It's the Canadian vegans.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Hey, don't throw our vegan bros On. Okay, what it's
a you to learn that when you go through the note.
I mean you pointed this out. There are some almost
literal quotes that come from movies.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Uh no, I did, it was there?
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Well, so here's the list. Other people have pointed more
and stuff like that. Some of these are stretches, for sure,
but some of them are literally. Okay, so in the
note it says don't try to grow a brain John, Okay.
In Speed, which is a nineteen ninety four movie. They
the what's his Name? Dennis Hopper says, yeah, do not
(38:32):
attempt to grow a brain. It's a very specific kind
of thing.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
I was that a common saying when we were growing up, like, dude,
don't try to grow a brain.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
I remember that.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
It's kind of specific.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
He says that to what's your face? Yeah, to miscongeniality.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Okay, the second part, you will withdraw one hundred eighteen
thousand from your account. One hundred thousand will be in
one hundred dollars bills remaining blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
If the money is in any way mark temper with
she dies. Okay.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Ruthless people, which you were saying and comedies, right, ruthless people,
has you know, put it in a black briefcase. You
will place five hundred thousand dollars in unmarked, non sequentially
numbered So it's not exact quote, but people were pointing out,
like I feel like someone like you said, like someone
watched a lot of movies, and I think this is
how you do it. But there is another ruthless people
(39:22):
part that's even closer, which is that they say you know,
any deviation my instructions will resolved from the media execution
of your daughter. Speaking twenty one with a situation, And
in Ruthless People it says, if you notice, you notify
the police, your wife will be killed. If you notify
the media, she will be killed. If you deviate for
my instructions in any way whatsoever, she will be killed.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
So that kind of like refrain of she will be killed,
she will be killed. She will be killed. It comes
from Ruthless People.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
The one dirty Hairy thing that does ring like someone
was referencing it is if we catch you talking to
a straight dog, she dies. And in Dirty Harry there's
a if you talk to anyone, I don't care if
it's a Pekinese pissing against a lamppost, the girls dies.
So it's one of these, like you say Peccanese, Peccanese, Pekinese.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Is that you said it's a dog? I guess, yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
So in Dirty Harry there's a reference like if you
talk to a dog, she dies. I mean they add
more words, so.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
I mean, well, that was a very specific line in
the note that seems like they're unconsciously you know, so
I would stray dog.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
What was this foreign faction small foreign faction a fan
of American movies and they were well, let's pepper it in.
Or was this person who's not right in the head
a fan of movies and like this is how it's done.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Or were the parents trying to throw people off the
scent by having movie quotes? Yeah, or the parents watching
these movies. I mean, I guess that would be the thing.
If they had rented Ruthless People and Dirty Harry and
Speed vhs in the last six months, then that wouldn't
help their case.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
I guess, right, right right, it's kind of crazy.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Okay, So I want to do let's take a break
and this. Yeah, as usual, since the patrons are the
ones that request these kinds of episodes and they literally
pay my bills, we want to reward them with the
full episode of each chapter. So we'll take a break
of this. The rest of this episode will be for
patrons of the podcast.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
That's right, and in this episode, in this part of
the episode, we're going to find all about like once
the police and the FBI get involved, like the search,
the massive search for Jon Bnay.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Okay, So, but if you're not a patron, we'll say
goodbye for now. Tune in next time when we continue
with chapter two. When everyone out there, please take care
of yourself because you deserve it.
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