October 15, 2025 • 40 mins
Dr Kirk Honda and Humberto Castaneda dive deep into the JonBenet Ramsey story.
00:00 Did an intruder do it?
26:41 Points of dispute
33:20 Potential intruder suspects
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October 15, 2025
The Psychology In Seattle Podcast ®
Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
Disclaimer: The content provided is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only. Nothing here constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis, or creates a counselor-client relationship. Topics discussed may generate differing points of view. If you participate (by being a guest, submitting a question, or commenting) you must do so with the knowledge that we cannot control reactions or responses from others, which may not agree with you or feel unfair. Your participation on this site is at your own risk, accepting full responsibility for any liability or harm that may result. Anything you write here may be used for discussion or endorsement of the podcast. Opinions and views expressed by the host and guest hosts are personal views. Although, we take precautions and fact check, they should not be considered facts and the opinions may change. Opinions posted by participants (such as comments) are not those of the hosts. Readers should not rely on any information found here and should perform due diligence before taking any action. For a more extensive description of factors for you to consider, please see www.psychologyinseattle.com
Photo credit: By http://www.blogstodiefor.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/jonbenet-ramsey.jpg, Fair use, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?curid=32519685
00:00 Did an intruder do it?
26:41 Points of dispute
33:20 Potential intruder suspects
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/KIRK to get 10% off your first month.
Become a member: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOUZWV1DRtHtpP2H48S7iiw/join
Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/PsychologyInSeattle
Email: https://www.psychologyinseattle.com/contact
Website: https://www.psychologyinseattle.com
Merch: https://psychologyinseattle-shop.fourthwall.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/psychologyinseattle/
Facebook Official Page: https://www.facebook.com/PsychologyInSeattle/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kirk.honda
October 15, 2025
The Psychology In Seattle Podcast ®
Trigger Warning: This episode may include topics such as assault, trauma, and discrimination. If necessary, listeners are encouraged to refrain from listening and care for their safety and well-being.
Disclaimer: The content provided is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only. Nothing here constitutes personal or professional consultation, therapy, diagnosis, or creates a counselor-client relationship. Topics discussed may generate differing points of view. If you participate (by being a guest, submitting a question, or commenting) you must do so with the knowledge that we cannot control reactions or responses from others, which may not agree with you or feel unfair. Your participation on this site is at your own risk, accepting full responsibility for any liability or harm that may result. Anything you write here may be used for discussion or endorsement of the podcast. Opinions and views expressed by the host and guest hosts are personal views. Although, we take precautions and fact check, they should not be considered facts and the opinions may change. Opinions posted by participants (such as comments) are not those of the hosts. Readers should not rely on any information found here and should perform due diligence before taking any action. For a more extensive description of factors for you to consider, please see www.psychologyinseattle.com
Photo credit: By http://www.blogstodiefor.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/jonbenet-ramsey.jpg, Fair use, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?curid=32519685
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, deserving listeners. This is chapter five. I believe in
our deep dive on the psychology of John Benet Ramsey,
Amberto Castnetta is walking us through the story today. I
believe we're going over Intruder's idi intruder did it theories?
Take it away, Bertow. My name is doctor Kirk Honda.
(00:20):
This is the Psychology in Seattle YouTube channel and podcast.
The full episodes are available on Patreon if you want
to become a patron. And who are you? Berto?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
My name Isumberto Casa and I extract all the vitamins
from the seawater? All right, So id I intruder did it?
So we've mentioned before in the previous episodes that there's
sort of like two main camps. There's the Ramses did
it camp, and that one subdivides of course into it
like it was John, it was Patsy, it.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Was Burke, it was a combo. Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So I made a mistake in previous episodes because I
mentioned that John Andrew Ramsey. I was thinking that that
was John Ramsey's brother and therefore would have been Joan
Benet's the little girl's uncle.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
So this is the Seamen guy.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, the ones who's blanket with apparently some semen was
found in a suitcase. Yes, okay, but it turns out
that that's actually Jean Benet's older half brother. I see, Yeah,
so he's actually John's son, but he is much older
because John had been married once already had had three kids.
One was the daughter who died in a car crash.
The other one was this guy, John Andrew Ramsey. In
(01:26):
either case, the Ramsey did it theory could include him too.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Then you could figure out, like they have family friends
that you could accuse, and maybe they said and the
Ramsey did it, but probably not. That might be more
like intruder did it. In either case, the other camp
is intruder did it. Now, the general idea here is
that instead of someone that was already in the house,
someone broke in either the night before or early that
(01:53):
morning or whatever, and was the responsible party for both
killing John Benet and the Ramsom ransom.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Night right, you were saying that there's a theory that
someone got into the house before they even got home
and was just waiting, or they broke in after they
went to bed, or any number of things. There were
nine different ways to get in, multiple windows, as they
could have. Someone could have crawled through multiple places, someone
(02:20):
could hide while they were out, blah blah blah exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
So first I'm going to go over before we talk
about specific suspects, I'm going to talk about the types
of evidence that people would point to as potential, you know,
signs that there was an intruder. The first one is
we mentioned that there was foreign male DNA found in
both the underwear and the underneath the nails of John
(02:44):
in nineteen ninety seven nineteen ninety eight, there was initial
testing that found trace male DNA. Now, just one thing
is that there's been a lot of pushback and debate
about the quality of that DNA, whether it's actually one
person or sort of like a mishmash of DNA that
got misident as being just one individual male dna. And
spoiler alert, they have never found a match for any
(03:08):
any of it. Okay, In two thousand and three. In
two thousand and eight, they did a newer type of test,
it's called short tandem repeat, and they did more of
those touch DNA tests and they did reconfirm that there
was some consistent foreign male DNA okay trace samples, But
there's more evidence that yeah, there seems to be some
Now again the underwear and stuff like that. It could
(03:30):
be from whoever made the underwear, or it could be
any number of things. Also, they only have samples of
DNA for people that are like criminals generally, because usually,
like normal citizens, they don't like go collecting everyone's DNA, right,
I mean back then for sure, but now, of course
they did collect samples from the family. But did they
collect samples from everyone that was at the party of
the previous day.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
But the question I have is about twenty three and
meters and all the other places. You know, they will
find a partial match, right and say, oh, this person
is a relative, and then they start zero, which.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
By the way, John Ramsey nowadays has been working with
investigators trying to use those kinds of techniques to see
if they can spot some sort of connection, you know,
to that.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
That's one area.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
It's the foreign male DNA, And it's important because like, well,
if it doesn't seem to match any of the Ramseys,
and it's in both the underwear and the nails, like
it's it's really weird, right, Like it's not. There's not
an easy, simple explanation for why that is right, doesn't
mean it is. But the second one is the I
mentioned the signs of possible sexual assault. Now this was
(04:36):
an interesting one because, as we also said, you can
have sexual assault by a family member. But given that
we also discussed that no one had ever reported other
signs of that, the doctor was like, I don't think
there's ever. It makes it possible or possible like, Okay,
maybe it's someone else, And it doesn't mean that it's
a total stranger. It could be someone they know that's
(04:57):
just not someone that lives in the house. There's a
third thing which I might have mentioned, but I'll just
mention against high tech bootprint, meaning high tech brand bootprint
found on the ground in the basement.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
The Ramseys didn't seem to have boots like that.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
What was the state of the bootprint?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
There was a bootprint on the ground like dirt or something, yeah,
like on the on the dirt of the ground in.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
The basement, on the dirt or dirt on the ground.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
No, no, on the like dust or dirt on the like.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
No, it didn't seem like, oh, someone dragging in dirt
is just on the ground like the film.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Was the ground kind of fresh looking? I guess it
could be months old.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Yeah, it just was. I don't have that data.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And also, let's put it this way, it could have
been from a police person, right, and it was a
partial high tech hiking bootprint, but there was a there
was a bootprint, and it's like John Ramsey doesn't own
high tech boots, Patsy doesn't. There was some debate because
Burke claimed he owned boots with the same logo as
high Tech Boots logo. He didn't say yeah, I had
(06:00):
high tech boots, but he said he had boots with
the logo.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
That is the same logo as the high Tech boots.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Well, you would think they would differentiate between a nine
year old boy's boots and an adult. I'm assuming it's
not an adult.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
They didn't match any pattern for the shoes for the Ramses,
so I'm guessing it's not a child's boot size because
that would be very noticeable probably, and he was only nine,
so it's not like, well twelve. Yeah, you could say
it's a partial bootprint. Maybe it is a child, you know,
like size wise, maybe the heel is still the same
size or whatever.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
But if it's a bootprint, I'm pretty sure you could
tell just looking at it. Honestly, I guess maybe.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Not, but either way, they didn't match it to the
next one is an unidentified pump print. There was a
pump print on the wine cellar door that did not
match any family member or regular visitor. Again, could be cop,
It could be a cop, or it could be someone
from six months ago. I don't know, but it's another bit.
(06:57):
And then the possible entry point. We talked about the
broken basement window. We talked about Burke saying that he
thinks he left the front door unlocked that night. We
talked about the number of windows and doors in the
house right now, cops, both John and the cops said
that the all the doors and windows were secure. You know,
the cops didn't notice any sign of break in entering,
(07:19):
but there was a broken window in the basement that
John later claimed had been open.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah. So, and like many other things, one would think
that if you were staging a break in, and you
were the ones the parents who killed John Minnie Ramsey,
that you would somehow figure out a way to make
it look like there was forced entry. It wouldn't be
that Hardor just leave something open, or break.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
The window and leave it open. Yeah, and then mention
it to the cops right right, and don't close it.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
That didn't happen, so.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
He instead didn't mention it.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Not that, but murderers don't mess up sometimes because they do.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So the ransom note is also interesting because we talked
about how Patsy could in fact have been the author
based on handwriting. But then there's also a lot of
weirdness to the ransom note, and so some folks that
are on the idea I camp think that this points
more to like someone that's just not well in the head,
and then they're trying to write these weird things.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
I mean, right again, if you're staging some kind of
fake intruder. Again, if you killed her, why would you
stage a kidnapping before you call the cops when you know,
unless you know. I guess the theory that we I'm
reminding myself that they thought that you know, the parents
(08:36):
didn't know about what the other one was doing, and
the father or the mother thought she would have time
to get rid or I guess it would be the
father who thought he would have time, but then she
randomly called nine one one or so. Anyway, Yeah, but
I just want to say for the record, where I'm
at is I don't know if people care, but I'm
fifty to fifty, Like, I'm right down the middle. I
(08:56):
not that I'm going back and forth necessarily. I've been
like almost most like zero percent on everything for a
long time because it's I think, a better critical thinking
position to have in this situation of like, well, I
don't know, I mean, it could be aliens at this point,
so there's too many theories. So I'm zero percent. As
I've gotten more and I've edited the episodes that we've
(09:19):
already recorded, and that gives me time to sort of
hear it again and everything that I mean, I am
right down the middle. But I would not put a
lot of money on either because there's just a lack
of evidence. And I could see why this would be
a compelling story because there's just enough evidence to make
(09:40):
it seem like one or the other, and there's enough
emotional power and passion underneath this, because you know, we
have a problem with sexual abuse in this country. It's
also true crime murder. You have rich people doing something
and you have the beauty pageant, but then you also
have cops that make mistake. You know, people have resentment
against cops. You have parents that are possibly being accused
(10:03):
of something that isn't true. It's just got it all
over the board, and it's just this magical. If you
created a story that would last decades and have Reddit
boards that are active and a whole podcast you said
that's just dedicated to this, then this is what you
would do.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
One last piece of evidence that I hadn't mentioned before.
It kind of was holding you back for this. There
were additional marks found on John Benet. There were two
dots in two different places on her neck and on
our face, two reddish dark dots like circular or just yeah,
little circles, almost like a vampire. Seriously, almost like a vampire.
(10:44):
But it wasn't punctured, but they were like it looked
either like from a result of something pressing against it
or maybe irritating it.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
There were two both on the face and on the
neck lateral lower back and.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
On the face. Sorry not the neck. Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
These were discussed initially, they weren't like thought of much
like I don't know how that happened. But there was
someone named lou Smitt who is apparently a very famous
crime solver. He had solved a lot of previously hard
to solve murders and things like this, and he got
involved in the case, and just so you know, he
eventually retired but continued working for the Ramses, essentially, I
(11:25):
think probably for free, Like this was just his life's
passion to try to solve this. And he always believed
the Ramseys were innocent, and he proposed that this could
have been done by a taser gun. He looked at
the spacing, he thought, oh, that's about the right spacing.
They did some tests on pig skin and they seemed
to leave marks that were similar.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Wait, so a contact taser or a taser gun, not.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
A gun, a contact taser, Like, okay, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, So that was that was this there and then
and then the to go along with this, it's like, well,
the parents don't even own a taster much less, why
would they use a taster on the top that was
part of their things. So you grab all these bits
of data and then folks started constructing like what could
have happened if it was an intruder? So why don't
(12:15):
you walk me through what you think could have happened
if it was an intruder? Like what would be the
timeline in your mind, but from what you know.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Well, there's a number of possibilities at the top of
the hypotheses list. But somehow someone got in the family
didn't know either before or after they got home. And
then when everyone was in bed, and I'm guessing that
there was pineapple consumed, and if it was intruder did it.
(12:44):
The parents messed up the next day by saying because
they were in such trauma that they said that wasn't us,
that must have been the killing, and they just forgot
and then later they felt like they had to uphold that,
so the pineapple had nothing to do with it. And
then the intruder goes to the room. She's in a
different wing of the house. You know, this is a
very large house, different set of stairs even that goes
(13:06):
up to her her part of the house. John Buddy Ramsey,
he could have even climbed in through the balcony Anya anyway,
so he gets into the house pretty easily, gets control
of her. She's a tiny, little six year old girl.
So backing up, he assuming it's a guy. It's usually is,
but you know, it could be a woman, but intruder violence,
the profile fits a guy. Anyway, he before going up
(13:29):
to the room, he randomly comes across and he's someone
that knows the family, knows the names, somehow knew of
the one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars bonus check, which
narrows it down quite but depending though, because you know,
if the payroll records were available at work or something,
(13:50):
and then someone was complaining to another like y'all, John
Bennett Ramsey got one hundred and eighteen grant. I only
got fifty eight grand, you know, it's yeah anyway, and
then he scribbles out this confused, strange, idiosyncratic note, thinking
that he's going to extort money. But he's not the
(14:11):
most sharpest tack in the box, and he gets John
Benny Ramsey. He has plans to assault sexually her anyway
after you know, during the kidnapping, you know, after bringing
her in a van of somewhere, and then so he
gets both. He gets to assault and harm and he
gets money out of it. But in the passion of
(14:34):
the moment, or Jean Benet is proving to be a
little bit more of a fighter, or he hears something
and in a fit of rage even he kills her
and gets his Jolly's in that way and doesn't retrieve
the kidnapping note and just walt is out of the
house without being noticed. That's in that category would be
(14:58):
I think the most likely thing if intruder did it,
But I wouldn't put a lot of money on it.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, I mean that's basically you hit I think the
main points. So the proponents in general would say, le's
just recount this will sound very familiar to what you
just said. Intruder enters the house late at night via
basement window or other point, encounter jomb encounters John Bennet,
assaults her sexually to silence or control her, inflicts blunt
force's head injury, and or strangles her with a cord
(15:24):
go out almost at the same time.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
But we have to add that what so he also
gets rope in the house, the rope the rope might
have not but he gets a paint brush from the
house and applies it to the rope that he brought.
Why would you do that, because I don't know, maybe
there's some logical reason, but if you're binding a child,
(15:50):
because that was the garroat was was the paintbrush on
the neck implement or on the on the tying her up.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
The paint brush part. The part of the paintbrush was
tied around one end of the rope, but it was
for the neck. Yeah, but it wasn't right up against
the neck. The neck was kind of there was a
loop around the neck.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah. Okay, Well, I don't think you would need that
to get because usually you do that to get leverage.
So why would you need that for a six year old, tiny,
tiny little girl, right, you know, yeah, so because usually
you do that because you really want leverage, because you're
trying to overpower someone that's your size or I don't know.
So so anyway, but we're supposed to believe that, you know, yeah,
(16:32):
that he did that. But I guess if we're saying
that he also grabbed the pad and pen from the house,
then it's not a stretch to say he grabbed that too.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
So to give the most forgiving version, maybe the one
that John might say the reason he had all the
time in the world to write the notice because he
was already in the house while they were at the party,
and he was looking around. And so let's say that
the real motive is the girl and not the money,
because if it were just the money. If you're in
a millionaire's house by yourself for apparently hours, there's probably
(17:06):
so much stuff you could steal that you might actually
be able to get up to one hundred grand.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
You know, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I jewelery, My house is electronics.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
I've had my house broken into at least once. It's
funny that you get old you think it hasn't been twice,
at least once, and they did that. They just ransacked.
In fact, has a funny detail. They came into the
house and again like the theory here, these two guys
(17:37):
just grabbed They didn't have anything with them. They were
clearly because there were reports. I had a retired police
officer that lived across the street and he saw these
two suspicious guys walking around in the neighborhood, these two
white guys walking around the neighborhood and noted it, but
didn't like watch long enough to see these two guys
(18:00):
just walked what But anyway, and at the time, I
was doing a little bit of construction, which made it
long story short, a bit of an easy target. And
so when they came in, they grabbed bags that were
they didn't have any implements they didn't have any tools.
They they used my construction tools to break the window.
They used my construction tools to climb in the window.
(18:23):
They grabbed my bags, my like tote bags. Wow, and
the and then and they just opened the fridge, took
a Rainier beer in cans because they're under age, and
they apparently or they just want the cheapest literally the
cheapest beer you can buy. They pile it into this
tote bag they are. You can see the kind of
(18:45):
path as they work through the house. They get to
my office, they open up my cabinet, they see my Xbox.
They dump out all of the beer in my office
and I mean, I'm yeah, you're constructing. They take my Xbox,
but not the power supply or any of the cords
because they're just ripping it out of the thing. So
they just have the console whatever with like probably a
(19:08):
game in there, like and.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Your saved game data.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Ah. Yeah, this is before like it would be perpetually
online anyway. And then then they grabbed a CD player,
like a portable CD player that was probably worth like
five dollars, and it had a bunch of stickers on it,
like a bunch of silly stickers. So it was like
a pretty goofy looking old portable city because it's like
(19:36):
two thousand and five or something when little portable CD
players were kind of on the outs, right, like CDs
were already sort of starting to go towards you know,
iPod and stuff and maybe like a calculator or something afterwards,
and insurance reimbursed. Actually I probably profited because they reimburse
(19:56):
based on like replaceability and it's not like I'm going
to replace the CD player. Don't tell my insurance company.
But anyway, so I did think about it at the time,
like how easy would it be to in the spur
of the moment you don't have a truck that's right outside,
you have to just grab whatever you can because in
your head you're just thinking, well, with electronics and stuff,
(20:17):
you know, it's probably like thousands of dollars worth of stuff.
But it actually wasn't that way. I was actually like, oh,
it would be kind of hard to find unless.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
You had, yeah, like diamonds.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Jewelry is where I was thinking mostly, but you're right,
or if they have actually a safe with money or something.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And our house was broken into a second time. Yeah,
And so what happened was we were moving Stacy and
I and the moving trucks were you know, farying back
and forth right, and Stacy wasn't comfortable bringing all of
her valuable stuff to the new house. And so the
(20:54):
only thing in the entire house were her jewelry. Oh no,
and her very expensive camera equipment, like thousands of dollars lenses,
and and her very expensive laptop, like her Apple top
of the line, like Photoshop laptop. And it was like
(21:15):
a nice little pile just waiting. And then and then
we all went to the other house and people, you know,
there are people that must have been they must do that.
They must do this as a thing. They like wait
and see moving trucks, and they figure in the chaos
it's easier to break into someone's and again looking at evidence,
(21:35):
they didn't bring any tools, and they're in the broad daylight.
Same wow. They walk up to the front door and
they grab my shovel and they start jamming it into
the door to try to break in. That doesn't work though,
because they're not geniuses. Sure, so then they walk down
the stairs right by the entrance and there's a window
(21:57):
that's open. Oh, that was left open in all likelihood
and they just slided it open slid it open slid
and crawled in split it and their walked through the
house and then sitting in a little pile is like
probably fifteen grand worth of stuff I don't know. And
the jewelry wasn't like expensive. It was sure a lot
(22:18):
of family heirlooms.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So jewelry is a very efficient thing that you can
steal because it's small generally, and yet it's worth way
more than its size.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Right, So I have been broken into twice, and I'm
so old that I forgot about the second one, which
is the more recent one. But my point is is
that when I think about IDI, you know, we tend
to think about CSI, it kind of ruins our understanding
of crime, that these are geniuses, that these are well
planned things. A lot of these kinds of crimes are
(22:49):
in the moment and not conducted by the sharpest tax
in the bunch, and sometimes they just get lucky, so
to speak, and then we're left trying to piece it together,
because like when I walk in, I just imagine you
walk in the house and the first thing you see
is just a bunch of rainier beer cans right everywhere,
and you're thinking what like And it took me a
(23:12):
while to kind of piece it together, right and I
and then I it took me a while to figure out, Oh,
they took one of my tope bags. I mean, who's
keeping track of your tope bags? Right on like a
little shelf or something. Oh they okay, so they took
the door. So and that, you know, it could be
other things that could have happened too. And the fact
that they broke the window makes it clear how they
got in. But imagine if you didn't have that, Imagine
(23:35):
if something was open or there already was a broken window.
It's not inconceivable to me, given my experiences, that you
can have a random person that doesn't know what they're doing,
is unsophisticated, doesn't even really have a plan, gets into
the house, creates all sorts of havoc, gets out, and
they don't leave a trace.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Yeah, it's possible.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
And so and to your point, if that person was
there for a long time, maybe they did look around
for stuff.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
They could steal and they're like, ah, there's nothing.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
But again to be let's take a break. Sorry for
interrupting you, and we get back. We'll continue. Let's do
it all right back from the break. Sorry for interrupting.
I'll give myself a yikes. By the way, you can
get this merch like a merch thing burto take it away.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Actually, when I was going to walk out of the house,
I was wearing this and I see my wife.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
My wife goes yikes.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
She might have gone yikes, yikes, yikes, And I'm like.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
What what what's happening? I forgot?
Speaker 1 (24:31):
And then just now when we were setting up, when
you're setting up, you were looking at yourself as a
monitor and you go and I'm setting up the camera
and you're like yikes, yikes, yikes, And I'm like, what
what what happened?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah, we're blind to our own Okay, So to continue
being charitable to the explanation. And maybe their plan is like, Okay,
I know a little bit about this family. Maybe I'm
obsessed with John Beney. Maybe I am like, you know,
a pedophile or something. I'm obsessed, and so I'm gonna
at the very least do stuff, you know. But maybe
(25:03):
I can get some money out of this, or maybe
I'm just gonna try to cover my tracks. Either way,
I have time, So I find a pad, I find
a pen and I write down crazy ransom note.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
You're alluding to this, but I suppose the other hypothesis
is that he purposely entered the house to rape and
kill her. And he does that, then in his mind
he thinks, well, it'll give me more time if I
stash the body somewhere and then write this note, it'll
throw everyone off and then I can get away and
I'll and I'll sprinkle in all these kind of random
(25:32):
details that will figure. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
And so then I find John Benet, I take her
down to the basement. I use my stun thing on
her a couple of times, which causes pain and suffering.
But maybe that's the scream that the neighbor hears. I'm
actually using the groat more as like a sexual thing,
you know, like a control slash sexual thing.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, that makes more sense.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yeah, And so I'm doing that.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
But then I either I'm done or I freak out
or whatever, or she's being too screaming. I don't know,
because then I hit her over the head with something.
And now I like stashed the body in this room
that I found downstairs, and then I closed the door
and then I exit, and I think, well, they'll probably
they'll probably be misdirected by the ransom notes. So yeah,
(26:21):
and then I just leave. So that's kind of the
theory in general that maybe genre or proponents of IDI
would have what obviously a billion variants within but roughly
that kind of thing. I was trying really hard to
just tell it like that, but I do find so
many issues with it. But okay, so points of dispute.
There are some criticisms, of course, and I'm not going
(26:43):
to go over all of them right now, but I'm
going to go.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Over some of the main ones.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
The DNA that was found could be trace or transfer
DNA from clothing manufacturing or other contamination, not necessarily, not
necessarily from the killer. For example, it is like they
were at a party just the previous day. A lot
of people might have carried John Benet had her. Someone
might have been sexually abusing her at the park. There's
so many things that could have been happening. She didn't
(27:08):
come home and take a bath. No one says she
took a bath. They say she was already asleep, and
they put her to bed in the right like they
said she was already asleep. We put her to bed right.
So whatever was happening at the party was still on
her body. It's kind of hard to tell a basement entry. Well,
there wasn't any obvious force entry. And on the entry photos,
(27:28):
like the photos of that window that was open and
had the broken, there were cobwebs that looked pretty entrenched,
and yes, spiders kenry redo the cobwebs, but those photos
were supposedly from that morning, and they were undisturbed cobwebs,
So if someone had gone through, they would have had
to be really skinny and super like get lucky enough
(27:48):
or maybe like be like see the cobwebs and think,
ooh if I leave them undisturbed, and so I'm just
gonna really like and then this guy that I was
mentioning that the investigator, lou Smitt, actually filmed them self
going through and he was able to go through, which
is not surprising because John himself claimed that that's how
he had gone into the house more than once. But
when you see the film, like it's he's not a
(28:09):
huge guy, he's getting gout, it's obvious that it takes
the whole frame, like, so it seems impossible for a
man to go through that window without just dragging stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
And yeah, and I don't know if we mentioned this
specifically before, but there's a possibility that John killed John
Benet or knew that Patsy did and was trying to
cover it up, and before calling the cops, he staged
a break in, right breaks the window. Then the cops
show up, and impulsively in the moment, he just is like,
(28:40):
oh shit, what if my DNA, Like he's not thinking
and he's like, oh shit, I'll just say oh no, no,
that was me a while because it is fishy that
he in the middle of December in where are they? Oh,
they're in Colorado, right, Yeah, so this is quite cold,
and he's he's he breaks the window and doesn't cover
(29:03):
it up with like plastic even and even more.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
So says they keep it open to cool the basement.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, which might be him doubling down on trying to
say no, no, it's not I didn't fix it because it
gets hot down there. In fact, sometimes I leave.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
What it's It's definitely hard, it's a lot of but
it's not killer proof. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
The other pushback is that the ransom note is very
long and theatrical it and it has a specific dollar figure,
so it's Again, it can be that the intruder could
have been either someone that knew John, maybe worked with him,
or could have gone through the house saw there is
apparently in John's office there were the bank receipts or
(29:47):
something the past stub or something that had the amount.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Could be Yeah, again, it's just right down the middle
for me. Yeah that in a fit of oh my god,
what do I do? I killed my daughter? He just
ran and he's oh, yeah, I got that thing, and
I'll just I'm trying to frame this guy at work
and it doesn't really work out that way in the end.
Or it's someone that is just looking around the house
(30:12):
because obviously if it is an intruder, he got a
pat and pen as well and was maybe rummaging through
things to try to steal something.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
And maybe he was originally going to steal stuff, but
then he's like, ooh, I could actually just get money
from I don't.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Know, right, because if because if you're gonna say it's
not the parents, then why would you be so specific
about something that only some people know. You think you
would just say a million dollars It wouldn't be that hard.
So it's just again, it's just right down the middle.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
The next one is the sexual assault injuries.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
So not to get a graphic or anything, but there's
a lot of crimes we've covered and that you can
hear about and talk about where the sexual assault is
brutal and it's obvious and there's tons of DNA and
it's you know.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
It's horrible.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
That's not this case.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
The examination revealed, as we mentioned, sort of acute and
chronic inflammation and areas.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
But there was definitely no like, oh, yes.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
This child was obviously raped by a grown male or
something like this, you know, like that was not a
conclusion from the corner, and so any number of things
could could have happened, right that this could have been
he she is kind of being sexually molested by someone
over time and maybe even at the party or whatever.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Or it could be someone in the household. They could
be the brother or the dad or the mom.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Or whatever, and neither of those could have anything to
do with the murder for one thing, right, But the
one thing that definitely didn't happen is the child was
not brutally sexually assaulted in an obvious fashion and they
killed him.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Side note, did QAnon grab onto.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
This slightly yes, there was some pictures.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
There are some pictures of because you know they had
those those pageants, right, there are some pictures in which
there is a lady that looks somewhat like Jelaine Maxwell.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
What's her names, Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Yeah, And so then there was this thing about, oh
maybe this was part of the huge pedophile ring. Seems
like they were having these crazy sex parties with the
children and then one went wrong and blah blah.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
Yeah, yeah, this seems definitely part of the theories.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Right up their alley in the marks were adrenochrome being
pulled out literally, yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Vampire adrenochrome. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
And then lastly, the high tech bootprints could be old,
innocent traces from a prior visitor or responder. So lots
of things to push back. Another thing, So, just to
be clear, no intruder has ever been charged, so it's important.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Wait, I mean, you haven't told me if anyone has
been charged.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
I know.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
But well, the last episode of our Final context this
context clues, or maybe even literally, we saw a clip
of the parents saying that they haven't been charged at
least by the time they were on Larry King or something.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
But I was an impression that no one got charged.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
In our final episode, we'll talk about the trial, but
just spoiler alert, no intruder has ever ever been charged.
Let's talk about some suspects, because you're like, well, are
there even any suspects or is it just like someone right,
there were suspects.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Also, I teased you.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Last time, and I told you that we would talk
about the confession. Well, before we get to the confession,
let's talk about some of the other suspects. Santa Santa
Claus is one of the suspects in this case.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
So like a mal Santa.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Oh, oh, it's not the real Yes, it's more than
a mal Santa. It's actually a Santa that they knew
that had come.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
To their party.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Oh, like a hired Santa.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
It was kind of a well known guy in town.
He has the big old Santa beard. We'll see a
little video in a second here. His name was Santa
Bill McReynolds. What a name, right, Santa Bill McReynolds.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
I won't be specific, but I know first hand of
a pedophile Santa. If you were a pedophile, this could
be one of the ways you could hide. Yeah, I'm
going to take a guest to say, the vast, vass
vast majority of Santa's are not. But if you wanted
to get away with touching children and getting in close contact,
(34:16):
this would be the way.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Okay, Well, retired journalism professor Santa Bill McReynolds sometimes played
Santa Claus at Boulder holiday parties. Had visited the Ramsays
home shortly before Christmas, knew the family, knew John Benet,
and had brought a small vial of glitter as a gift.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
For John Beney. So this isn't a stranger, not entirely,
it's someone they know.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
He's been to the house, he knows John Benay and
had even given her a gift.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Okay, like that year, just that same Christmas. Yeah, like
the previous thing.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
He could have seen the past ub or even heard.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Any number of things.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Yes, there was some note about his eccentricity, and maybe
to your point, maybe there was some sort of suspicion
because he is a Santa, and maybe people were like,
I don't know, I didn't I didn't think about that honestly, Like,
you've just now ruined both my childhood and actually there
was no Santa in my childhood because in Columbia, was
Baby Jesus. But really yeah, yeah, in Columbia, we didn't
(35:16):
have Santa Claus when I was a kid. Baby Jesus,
Jesus comes down to the chimney. No, no chimney at
midnight on the twenty fourth. Baby Jesus would leave presents
under your pillow.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
He'd walk around in his diapers.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I think it's more ethereal than that. I think he
just kind of manifests down and leaves, you know, presence
under your pillows. And let me tell you they were
cool presents.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I mean, if someone's going to fit down at chimney,
I think Baby Jesus, maybe Jesus actually.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Makes a lot more sense to go down chimneys. Yeah, yeah,
that's true.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Baby Jesus have like a clothes on or because usually
Baby Jesus kind of swaddled in a blanket.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Maybe one of those little white little swaddled things, you know,
floating by the way.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I love hearing about this. Have you heard of the
Dutch Santa like Saint Nick thing. I don't know if
they do this anymore, but up until rather recently they
have this figure like Father Christmas kind of guy, a
Saint Nick or whatever, and he has always black slaves
that are, oh my god, following him around what or
(36:13):
five black they're always black guys, And it's some I
don't know, I don't know, you know, and the Dutch
were prolific slave traders, so I don't know the history there,
but it's been sort of now I'm guessing that if
we look at any practice, you know, like even when
you think of marriage and the father bringing the bride down,
(36:37):
it was because women were possessions and the girl was
a possession of the father and now he's handing her
off to for husbandry, that kind of thing. You know,
when you look at that, you're like, oh, look what
you're doing is It's like, well, it doesn't mean that
anymore now. It just is an expression of love and stuff.
And certainly there's overtones and whatnot, but it's not so
(36:58):
you can have five black guys and not necessarily be
saying this like so but anyway, I just love hearing this,
so said baby Jesus.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
All right, So either way, it's interesting that you point
out that, like, oh, maybe Santa would be a profession
of your Well, so in either case, it brought some
suspicion because he knew the family and Patsy was told
by a friend of hers that little John Beney had
told her. Patsy's friend they were having a conversation the
adult and John Benet about Santa, and John Benney had said,
(37:28):
Santa promised he's going to visit me after Christmas. He's
going to do a special visit. And the adults said, oh, no, Santa,
Santa's coming tonight or whatever, and that John Benay allegedly
had said, oh no, no, no, he said he promised
me He's going to do a special visit.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
I mean that could be any number of things. John
Manny could be exclusive, John Benny could be confused, The
friend could be confused about what she heard for John Binney,
or the guy said I'm going to make a special
visit to your family.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
Or he could be a killer.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
And that.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Was so.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Now that's not like the cops heard that and let's
go arrest him. It's just it's another interesting data point. Okay,
So what do you think was the outcome?
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Well, one, I'm guessing that guy is still being harassed
by a fucking mob online and doxing him and following
him around. I'm just going to take a guess about that.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Here is the outcome. Number one DNA did not match.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
And when I say did not match, it's not just
that that foreign male DNA and the underwear and nails
didn't match. There's just no DNA of Santa found in
the basement or any of the no fingerprints either, right,
so it just wasn't a match.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
He had a solid alibi.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
It is Santa. The main suspects of venture.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Oh okay, he also had a solid alibi, and he
was never charged, meaning solid alibi, like there were witnesses,
like he was at a specific place, other things.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
They did interview him.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
He said he really loved like he thought she was
such a beautiful, wonderful girl. He would never hurt her.
But of course a killer might say that too. He
died in two thousand and two, and he was generally
considered cleared. So none of the serious investigators, even the
ones that were pro IDI, were like it was Sanna, Right,
It just was one of those weird things like, well
he was there, and he there was this weird thing
(39:19):
that John Benea reportedly had said to someone.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yeah, I mean, given how little evidence there is, if
we are hypothesizing about an intruder, then it literally could
be anyone. It could be someone that doesn't know the family,
that knew enough of the family named by a listing,
or broke into the house and then just figured out
things as he was in there, or she or someone
(39:45):
that knew the family, like it could it just could
be anyone, that's right. Yeah, So yeah, Santa is on
that list of anyone.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
The other thing is he was older and like sick
and frail, so him crawling through the basement was also
kind of put into question. But all right, so that's
it for the segment, and then in the patron Zone,
we're going to go over more of the suspects and
a confession apparently, oh definitely the confession, and everyone out
there become a patron and listen to the rest or
(40:13):
watch the rest.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Otherwise, please take care of yourself because you deserve it.
Hey, deserving listeners. This is chapter five. I believe in
our deep dive on the psychology of John Benet Ramsey,
Amberto Castnetta is walking us through the story today. I
believe we're going over Intruder's idi intruder did it theories?
Take it away, Bertow. My name is doctor Kirk Honda.
(00:20):
This is the Psychology in Seattle YouTube channel and podcast.
The full episodes are available on Patreon if you want
to become a patron. And who are you? Berto?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
My name Isumberto Casa and I extract all the vitamins
from the seawater? All right, So id I intruder did it?
So we've mentioned before in the previous episodes that there's
sort of like two main camps. There's the Ramses did
it camp, and that one subdivides of course into it
like it was John, it was Patsy, it.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Was Burke, it was a combo. Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So I made a mistake in previous episodes because I
mentioned that John Andrew Ramsey. I was thinking that that
was John Ramsey's brother and therefore would have been Joan
Benet's the little girl's uncle.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
So this is the Seamen guy.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, the ones who's blanket with apparently some semen was
found in a suitcase. Yes, okay, but it turns out
that that's actually Jean Benet's older half brother. I see, Yeah,
so he's actually John's son, but he is much older
because John had been married once already had had three kids.
One was the daughter who died in a car crash.
The other one was this guy, John Andrew Ramsey. In
(01:26):
either case, the Ramsey did it theory could include him too.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Then you could figure out, like they have family friends
that you could accuse, and maybe they said and the
Ramsey did it, but probably not. That might be more
like intruder did it. In either case, the other camp
is intruder did it. Now, the general idea here is
that instead of someone that was already in the house,
someone broke in either the night before or early that
(01:53):
morning or whatever, and was the responsible party for both
killing John Benet and the Ramsom ransom.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Night right, you were saying that there's a theory that
someone got into the house before they even got home
and was just waiting, or they broke in after they
went to bed, or any number of things. There were
nine different ways to get in, multiple windows, as they
could have. Someone could have crawled through multiple places, someone
(02:20):
could hide while they were out, blah blah blah exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
So first I'm going to go over before we talk
about specific suspects, I'm going to talk about the types
of evidence that people would point to as potential, you know,
signs that there was an intruder. The first one is
we mentioned that there was foreign male DNA found in
both the underwear and the underneath the nails of John
(02:44):
in nineteen ninety seven nineteen ninety eight, there was initial
testing that found trace male DNA. Now, just one thing
is that there's been a lot of pushback and debate
about the quality of that DNA, whether it's actually one
person or sort of like a mishmash of DNA that
got misident as being just one individual male dna. And
spoiler alert, they have never found a match for any
(03:08):
any of it. Okay, In two thousand and three. In
two thousand and eight, they did a newer type of test,
it's called short tandem repeat, and they did more of
those touch DNA tests and they did reconfirm that there
was some consistent foreign male DNA okay trace samples, But
there's more evidence that yeah, there seems to be some
Now again the underwear and stuff like that. It could
(03:30):
be from whoever made the underwear, or it could be
any number of things. Also, they only have samples of
DNA for people that are like criminals generally, because usually,
like normal citizens, they don't like go collecting everyone's DNA, right,
I mean back then for sure, but now, of course
they did collect samples from the family. But did they
collect samples from everyone that was at the party of
the previous day.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
But the question I have is about twenty three and
meters and all the other places. You know, they will
find a partial match, right and say, oh, this person
is a relative, and then they start zero, which.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
By the way, John Ramsey nowadays has been working with
investigators trying to use those kinds of techniques to see
if they can spot some sort of connection, you know,
to that.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
That's one area.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
It's the foreign male DNA, And it's important because like, well,
if it doesn't seem to match any of the Ramseys,
and it's in both the underwear and the nails, like
it's it's really weird, right, Like it's not. There's not
an easy, simple explanation for why that is right, doesn't
mean it is. But the second one is the I
mentioned the signs of possible sexual assault. Now this was
(04:36):
an interesting one because, as we also said, you can
have sexual assault by a family member. But given that
we also discussed that no one had ever reported other
signs of that, the doctor was like, I don't think
there's ever. It makes it possible or possible like, Okay,
maybe it's someone else, And it doesn't mean that it's
a total stranger. It could be someone they know that's
(04:57):
just not someone that lives in the house. There's a
third thing which I might have mentioned, but I'll just
mention against high tech bootprint, meaning high tech brand bootprint
found on the ground in the basement.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
The Ramseys didn't seem to have boots like that.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
What was the state of the bootprint?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
There was a bootprint on the ground like dirt or something, yeah,
like on the on the dirt of the ground in.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
The basement, on the dirt or dirt on the ground.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
No, no, on the like dust or dirt on the like.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
No, it didn't seem like, oh, someone dragging in dirt
is just on the ground like the film.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Was the ground kind of fresh looking? I guess it
could be months old.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Yeah, it just was. I don't have that data.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And also, let's put it this way, it could have
been from a police person, right, and it was a
partial high tech hiking bootprint, but there was a there
was a bootprint, and it's like John Ramsey doesn't own
high tech boots, Patsy doesn't. There was some debate because
Burke claimed he owned boots with the same logo as
high Tech Boots logo. He didn't say yeah, I had
(06:00):
high tech boots, but he said he had boots with
the logo.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
That is the same logo as the high Tech boots.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Well, you would think they would differentiate between a nine
year old boy's boots and an adult. I'm assuming it's
not an adult.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
They didn't match any pattern for the shoes for the Ramses,
so I'm guessing it's not a child's boot size because
that would be very noticeable probably, and he was only nine,
so it's not like, well twelve. Yeah, you could say
it's a partial bootprint. Maybe it is a child, you know,
like size wise, maybe the heel is still the same
size or whatever.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
But if it's a bootprint, I'm pretty sure you could
tell just looking at it. Honestly, I guess maybe.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Not, but either way, they didn't match it to the
next one is an unidentified pump print. There was a
pump print on the wine cellar door that did not
match any family member or regular visitor. Again, could be cop,
It could be a cop, or it could be someone
from six months ago. I don't know, but it's another bit.
(06:57):
And then the possible entry point. We talked about the
broken basement window. We talked about Burke saying that he
thinks he left the front door unlocked that night. We
talked about the number of windows and doors in the
house right now, cops, both John and the cops said
that the all the doors and windows were secure. You know,
the cops didn't notice any sign of break in entering,
(07:19):
but there was a broken window in the basement that
John later claimed had been open.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah. So, and like many other things, one would think
that if you were staging a break in, and you
were the ones the parents who killed John Minnie Ramsey,
that you would somehow figure out a way to make
it look like there was forced entry. It wouldn't be
that Hardor just leave something open, or break.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
The window and leave it open. Yeah, and then mention
it to the cops right right, and don't close it.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
That didn't happen, so.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
He instead didn't mention it.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Not that, but murderers don't mess up sometimes because they do.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So the ransom note is also interesting because we talked
about how Patsy could in fact have been the author
based on handwriting. But then there's also a lot of
weirdness to the ransom note, and so some folks that
are on the idea I camp think that this points
more to like someone that's just not well in the head,
and then they're trying to write these weird things.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
I mean, right again, if you're staging some kind of
fake intruder. Again, if you killed her, why would you
stage a kidnapping before you call the cops when you know,
unless you know. I guess the theory that we I'm
reminding myself that they thought that you know, the parents
(08:36):
didn't know about what the other one was doing, and
the father or the mother thought she would have time
to get rid or I guess it would be the
father who thought he would have time, but then she
randomly called nine one one or so. Anyway, Yeah, but
I just want to say for the record, where I'm
at is I don't know if people care, but I'm
fifty to fifty, Like, I'm right down the middle. I
(08:56):
not that I'm going back and forth necessarily. I've been
like almost most like zero percent on everything for a
long time because it's I think, a better critical thinking
position to have in this situation of like, well, I
don't know, I mean, it could be aliens at this point,
so there's too many theories. So I'm zero percent. As
I've gotten more and I've edited the episodes that we've
(09:19):
already recorded, and that gives me time to sort of
hear it again and everything that I mean, I am
right down the middle. But I would not put a
lot of money on either because there's just a lack
of evidence. And I could see why this would be
a compelling story because there's just enough evidence to make
(09:40):
it seem like one or the other, and there's enough
emotional power and passion underneath this, because you know, we
have a problem with sexual abuse in this country. It's
also true crime murder. You have rich people doing something
and you have the beauty pageant, but then you also
have cops that make mistake. You know, people have resentment
against cops. You have parents that are possibly being accused
(10:03):
of something that isn't true. It's just got it all
over the board, and it's just this magical. If you
created a story that would last decades and have Reddit
boards that are active and a whole podcast you said
that's just dedicated to this, then this is what you
would do.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
One last piece of evidence that I hadn't mentioned before.
It kind of was holding you back for this. There
were additional marks found on John Benet. There were two
dots in two different places on her neck and on
our face, two reddish dark dots like circular or just yeah,
little circles, almost like a vampire. Seriously, almost like a vampire.
(10:44):
But it wasn't punctured, but they were like it looked
either like from a result of something pressing against it
or maybe irritating it.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
There were two both on the face and on the
neck lateral lower back and.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
On the face. Sorry not the neck. Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
These were discussed initially, they weren't like thought of much
like I don't know how that happened. But there was
someone named lou Smitt who is apparently a very famous
crime solver. He had solved a lot of previously hard
to solve murders and things like this, and he got
involved in the case, and just so you know, he
eventually retired but continued working for the Ramses, essentially, I
(11:25):
think probably for free, Like this was just his life's
passion to try to solve this. And he always believed
the Ramseys were innocent, and he proposed that this could
have been done by a taser gun. He looked at
the spacing, he thought, oh, that's about the right spacing.
They did some tests on pig skin and they seemed
to leave marks that were similar.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Wait, so a contact taser or a taser gun, not.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
A gun, a contact taser, Like, okay, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, So that was that was this there and then
and then the to go along with this, it's like, well,
the parents don't even own a taster much less, why
would they use a taster on the top that was
part of their things. So you grab all these bits
of data and then folks started constructing like what could
have happened if it was an intruder? So why don't
(12:15):
you walk me through what you think could have happened
if it was an intruder? Like what would be the
timeline in your mind, but from what you know.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Well, there's a number of possibilities at the top of
the hypotheses list. But somehow someone got in the family
didn't know either before or after they got home. And
then when everyone was in bed, and I'm guessing that
there was pineapple consumed, and if it was intruder did it.
(12:44):
The parents messed up the next day by saying because
they were in such trauma that they said that wasn't us,
that must have been the killing, and they just forgot
and then later they felt like they had to uphold that,
so the pineapple had nothing to do with it. And
then the intruder goes to the room. She's in a
different wing of the house. You know, this is a
very large house, different set of stairs even that goes
(13:06):
up to her her part of the house. John Buddy Ramsey,
he could have even climbed in through the balcony Anya anyway,
so he gets into the house pretty easily, gets control
of her. She's a tiny, little six year old girl.
So backing up, he assuming it's a guy. It's usually is,
but you know, it could be a woman, but intruder violence,
the profile fits a guy. Anyway, he before going up
(13:29):
to the room, he randomly comes across and he's someone
that knows the family, knows the names, somehow knew of
the one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars bonus check, which
narrows it down quite but depending though, because you know,
if the payroll records were available at work or something,
(13:50):
and then someone was complaining to another like y'all, John
Bennett Ramsey got one hundred and eighteen grant. I only
got fifty eight grand, you know, it's yeah anyway, and
then he scribbles out this confused, strange, idiosyncratic note, thinking
that he's going to extort money. But he's not the
(14:11):
most sharpest tack in the box, and he gets John
Benny Ramsey. He has plans to assault sexually her anyway
after you know, during the kidnapping, you know, after bringing
her in a van of somewhere, and then so he
gets both. He gets to assault and harm and he
gets money out of it. But in the passion of
(14:34):
the moment, or Jean Benet is proving to be a
little bit more of a fighter, or he hears something
and in a fit of rage even he kills her
and gets his Jolly's in that way and doesn't retrieve
the kidnapping note and just walt is out of the
house without being noticed. That's in that category would be
(14:58):
I think the most likely thing if intruder did it,
But I wouldn't put a lot of money on it.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, I mean that's basically you hit I think the
main points. So the proponents in general would say, le's
just recount this will sound very familiar to what you
just said. Intruder enters the house late at night via
basement window or other point, encounter jomb encounters John Bennet,
assaults her sexually to silence or control her, inflicts blunt
force's head injury, and or strangles her with a cord
(15:24):
go out almost at the same time.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
But we have to add that what so he also
gets rope in the house, the rope the rope might
have not but he gets a paint brush from the
house and applies it to the rope that he brought.
Why would you do that, because I don't know, maybe
there's some logical reason, but if you're binding a child,
(15:50):
because that was the garroat was was the paintbrush on
the neck implement or on the on the tying her up.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
The paint brush part. The part of the paintbrush was
tied around one end of the rope, but it was
for the neck. Yeah, but it wasn't right up against
the neck. The neck was kind of there was a
loop around the neck.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah. Okay, Well, I don't think you would need that
to get because usually you do that to get leverage.
So why would you need that for a six year old, tiny,
tiny little girl, right, you know, yeah, so because usually
you do that because you really want leverage, because you're
trying to overpower someone that's your size or I don't know.
So so anyway, but we're supposed to believe that, you know, yeah,
(16:32):
that he did that. But I guess if we're saying
that he also grabbed the pad and pen from the house,
then it's not a stretch to say he grabbed that too.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
So to give the most forgiving version, maybe the one
that John might say the reason he had all the
time in the world to write the notice because he
was already in the house while they were at the party,
and he was looking around. And so let's say that
the real motive is the girl and not the money,
because if it were just the money. If you're in
a millionaire's house by yourself for apparently hours, there's probably
(17:06):
so much stuff you could steal that you might actually
be able to get up to one hundred grand.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
You know, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I jewelery, My house is electronics.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
I've had my house broken into at least once. It's
funny that you get old you think it hasn't been twice,
at least once, and they did that. They just ransacked.
In fact, has a funny detail. They came into the
house and again like the theory here, these two guys
(17:37):
just grabbed They didn't have anything with them. They were
clearly because there were reports. I had a retired police
officer that lived across the street and he saw these
two suspicious guys walking around in the neighborhood, these two
white guys walking around the neighborhood and noted it, but
didn't like watch long enough to see these two guys
(18:00):
just walked what But anyway, and at the time, I
was doing a little bit of construction, which made it
long story short, a bit of an easy target. And
so when they came in, they grabbed bags that were
they didn't have any implements they didn't have any tools.
They they used my construction tools to break the window.
They used my construction tools to climb in the window.
(18:23):
They grabbed my bags, my like tote bags. Wow, and
the and then and they just opened the fridge, took
a Rainier beer in cans because they're under age, and
they apparently or they just want the cheapest literally the
cheapest beer you can buy. They pile it into this
tote bag they are. You can see the kind of
(18:45):
path as they work through the house. They get to
my office, they open up my cabinet, they see my Xbox.
They dump out all of the beer in my office
and I mean, I'm yeah, you're constructing. They take my Xbox,
but not the power supply or any of the cords
because they're just ripping it out of the thing. So
they just have the console whatever with like probably a
(19:08):
game in there, like and.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Your saved game data.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Ah. Yeah, this is before like it would be perpetually
online anyway. And then then they grabbed a CD player,
like a portable CD player that was probably worth like
five dollars, and it had a bunch of stickers on it,
like a bunch of silly stickers. So it was like
a pretty goofy looking old portable city because it's like
(19:36):
two thousand and five or something when little portable CD
players were kind of on the outs, right, like CDs
were already sort of starting to go towards you know,
iPod and stuff and maybe like a calculator or something afterwards,
and insurance reimbursed. Actually I probably profited because they reimburse
(19:56):
based on like replaceability and it's not like I'm going
to replace the CD player. Don't tell my insurance company.
But anyway, so I did think about it at the time,
like how easy would it be to in the spur
of the moment you don't have a truck that's right outside,
you have to just grab whatever you can because in
your head you're just thinking, well, with electronics and stuff,
(20:17):
you know, it's probably like thousands of dollars worth of stuff.
But it actually wasn't that way. I was actually like, oh,
it would be kind of hard to find unless.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
You had, yeah, like diamonds.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Jewelry is where I was thinking mostly, but you're right,
or if they have actually a safe with money or something.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And our house was broken into a second time. Yeah,
And so what happened was we were moving Stacy and
I and the moving trucks were you know, farying back
and forth right, and Stacy wasn't comfortable bringing all of
her valuable stuff to the new house. And so the
(20:54):
only thing in the entire house were her jewelry. Oh no,
and her very expensive camera equipment, like thousands of dollars lenses,
and and her very expensive laptop, like her Apple top
of the line, like Photoshop laptop. And it was like
(21:15):
a nice little pile just waiting. And then and then
we all went to the other house and people, you know,
there are people that must have been they must do that.
They must do this as a thing. They like wait
and see moving trucks, and they figure in the chaos
it's easier to break into someone's and again looking at evidence,
(21:35):
they didn't bring any tools, and they're in the broad daylight.
Same wow. They walk up to the front door and
they grab my shovel and they start jamming it into
the door to try to break in. That doesn't work though,
because they're not geniuses. Sure, so then they walk down
the stairs right by the entrance and there's a window
(21:57):
that's open. Oh, that was left open in all likelihood
and they just slided it open slid it open slid
and crawled in split it and their walked through the
house and then sitting in a little pile is like
probably fifteen grand worth of stuff I don't know. And
the jewelry wasn't like expensive. It was sure a lot
(22:18):
of family heirlooms.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So jewelry is a very efficient thing that you can
steal because it's small generally, and yet it's worth way
more than its size.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Right, So I have been broken into twice, and I'm
so old that I forgot about the second one, which
is the more recent one. But my point is is
that when I think about IDI, you know, we tend
to think about CSI, it kind of ruins our understanding
of crime, that these are geniuses, that these are well
planned things. A lot of these kinds of crimes are
(22:49):
in the moment and not conducted by the sharpest tax
in the bunch, and sometimes they just get lucky, so
to speak, and then we're left trying to piece it together,
because like when I walk in, I just imagine you
walk in the house and the first thing you see
is just a bunch of rainier beer cans right everywhere,
and you're thinking what like And it took me a
(23:12):
while to kind of piece it together, right and I
and then I it took me a while to figure out, Oh,
they took one of my tope bags. I mean, who's
keeping track of your tope bags? Right on like a
little shelf or something. Oh they okay, so they took
the door. So and that, you know, it could be
other things that could have happened too. And the fact
that they broke the window makes it clear how they
got in. But imagine if you didn't have that, Imagine
(23:35):
if something was open or there already was a broken window.
It's not inconceivable to me, given my experiences, that you
can have a random person that doesn't know what they're doing,
is unsophisticated, doesn't even really have a plan, gets into
the house, creates all sorts of havoc, gets out, and
they don't leave a trace.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Yeah, it's possible.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
And so and to your point, if that person was
there for a long time, maybe they did look around
for stuff.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
They could steal and they're like, ah, there's nothing.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
But again to be let's take a break. Sorry for
interrupting you, and we get back. We'll continue. Let's do
it all right back from the break. Sorry for interrupting.
I'll give myself a yikes. By the way, you can
get this merch like a merch thing burto take it away.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Actually, when I was going to walk out of the house,
I was wearing this and I see my wife.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
My wife goes yikes.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
She might have gone yikes, yikes, yikes, And I'm like.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
What what what's happening? I forgot?
Speaker 1 (24:31):
And then just now when we were setting up, when
you're setting up, you were looking at yourself as a
monitor and you go and I'm setting up the camera
and you're like yikes, yikes, yikes, And I'm like, what
what what happened?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah, we're blind to our own Okay, So to continue
being charitable to the explanation. And maybe their plan is like, Okay,
I know a little bit about this family. Maybe I'm
obsessed with John Beney. Maybe I am like, you know,
a pedophile or something. I'm obsessed, and so I'm gonna
at the very least do stuff, you know. But maybe
(25:03):
I can get some money out of this, or maybe
I'm just gonna try to cover my tracks. Either way,
I have time, So I find a pad, I find
a pen and I write down crazy ransom note.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
You're alluding to this, but I suppose the other hypothesis
is that he purposely entered the house to rape and
kill her. And he does that, then in his mind
he thinks, well, it'll give me more time if I
stash the body somewhere and then write this note, it'll
throw everyone off and then I can get away and
I'll and I'll sprinkle in all these kind of random
(25:32):
details that will figure. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
And so then I find John Benet, I take her
down to the basement. I use my stun thing on
her a couple of times, which causes pain and suffering.
But maybe that's the scream that the neighbor hears. I'm
actually using the groat more as like a sexual thing,
you know, like a control slash sexual thing.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, that makes more sense.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yeah, And so I'm doing that.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
But then I either I'm done or I freak out
or whatever, or she's being too screaming. I don't know,
because then I hit her over the head with something.
And now I like stashed the body in this room
that I found downstairs, and then I closed the door
and then I exit, and I think, well, they'll probably
they'll probably be misdirected by the ransom notes. So yeah,
(26:21):
and then I just leave. So that's kind of the
theory in general that maybe genre or proponents of IDI
would have what obviously a billion variants within but roughly
that kind of thing. I was trying really hard to
just tell it like that, but I do find so
many issues with it. But okay, so points of dispute.
There are some criticisms, of course, and I'm not going
(26:43):
to go over all of them right now, but I'm
going to go.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Over some of the main ones.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
The DNA that was found could be trace or transfer
DNA from clothing manufacturing or other contamination, not necessarily, not
necessarily from the killer. For example, it is like they
were at a party just the previous day. A lot
of people might have carried John Benet had her. Someone
might have been sexually abusing her at the park. There's
so many things that could have been happening. She didn't
(27:08):
come home and take a bath. No one says she
took a bath. They say she was already asleep, and
they put her to bed in the right like they
said she was already asleep. We put her to bed right.
So whatever was happening at the party was still on
her body. It's kind of hard to tell a basement entry. Well,
there wasn't any obvious force entry. And on the entry photos,
(27:28):
like the photos of that window that was open and
had the broken, there were cobwebs that looked pretty entrenched,
and yes, spiders kenry redo the cobwebs, but those photos
were supposedly from that morning, and they were undisturbed cobwebs,
So if someone had gone through, they would have had
to be really skinny and super like get lucky enough
(27:48):
or maybe like be like see the cobwebs and think,
ooh if I leave them undisturbed, and so I'm just
gonna really like and then this guy that I was
mentioning that the investigator, lou Smitt, actually filmed them self
going through and he was able to go through, which
is not surprising because John himself claimed that that's how
he had gone into the house more than once. But
when you see the film, like it's he's not a
(28:09):
huge guy, he's getting gout, it's obvious that it takes
the whole frame, like, so it seems impossible for a
man to go through that window without just dragging stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
And yeah, and I don't know if we mentioned this
specifically before, but there's a possibility that John killed John
Benet or knew that Patsy did and was trying to
cover it up, and before calling the cops, he staged
a break in, right breaks the window. Then the cops
show up, and impulsively in the moment, he just is like,
(28:40):
oh shit, what if my DNA, Like he's not thinking
and he's like, oh shit, I'll just say oh no, no,
that was me a while because it is fishy that
he in the middle of December in where are they? Oh,
they're in Colorado, right, Yeah, so this is quite cold,
and he's he's he breaks the window and doesn't cover
(29:03):
it up with like plastic even and even more.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
So says they keep it open to cool the basement.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, which might be him doubling down on trying to
say no, no, it's not I didn't fix it because it
gets hot down there. In fact, sometimes I leave.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
What it's It's definitely hard, it's a lot of but
it's not killer proof. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
The other pushback is that the ransom note is very
long and theatrical it and it has a specific dollar figure,
so it's Again, it can be that the intruder could
have been either someone that knew John, maybe worked with him,
or could have gone through the house saw there is
apparently in John's office there were the bank receipts or
(29:47):
something the past stub or something that had the amount.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Could be Yeah, again, it's just right down the middle
for me. Yeah that in a fit of oh my god,
what do I do? I killed my daughter? He just
ran and he's oh, yeah, I got that thing, and
I'll just I'm trying to frame this guy at work
and it doesn't really work out that way in the end.
Or it's someone that is just looking around the house
(30:12):
because obviously if it is an intruder, he got a
pat and pen as well and was maybe rummaging through
things to try to steal something.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
And maybe he was originally going to steal stuff, but
then he's like, ooh, I could actually just get money
from I don't.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Know, right, because if because if you're gonna say it's
not the parents, then why would you be so specific
about something that only some people know. You think you
would just say a million dollars It wouldn't be that hard.
So it's just again, it's just right down the middle.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
The next one is the sexual assault injuries.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
So not to get a graphic or anything, but there's
a lot of crimes we've covered and that you can
hear about and talk about where the sexual assault is
brutal and it's obvious and there's tons of DNA and
it's you know.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
It's horrible.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
That's not this case.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
The examination revealed, as we mentioned, sort of acute and
chronic inflammation and areas.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
But there was definitely no like, oh, yes.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
This child was obviously raped by a grown male or
something like this, you know, like that was not a
conclusion from the corner, and so any number of things
could could have happened, right that this could have been
he she is kind of being sexually molested by someone
over time and maybe even at the party or whatever.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Or it could be someone in the household. They could
be the brother or the dad or the mom.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Or whatever, and neither of those could have anything to
do with the murder for one thing, right, But the
one thing that definitely didn't happen is the child was
not brutally sexually assaulted in an obvious fashion and they
killed him.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Side note, did QAnon grab onto.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
This slightly yes, there was some pictures.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
There are some pictures of because you know they had
those those pageants, right, there are some pictures in which
there is a lady that looks somewhat like Jelaine Maxwell.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
What's her names, Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Yeah, And so then there was this thing about, oh
maybe this was part of the huge pedophile ring. Seems
like they were having these crazy sex parties with the
children and then one went wrong and blah blah.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
Yeah, yeah, this seems definitely part of the theories.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Right up their alley in the marks were adrenochrome being
pulled out literally, yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Vampire adrenochrome. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
And then lastly, the high tech bootprints could be old,
innocent traces from a prior visitor or responder. So lots
of things to push back. Another thing, So, just to
be clear, no intruder has ever been charged, so it's important.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Wait, I mean, you haven't told me if anyone has
been charged.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
I know.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
But well, the last episode of our Final context this
context clues, or maybe even literally, we saw a clip
of the parents saying that they haven't been charged at
least by the time they were on Larry King or something.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
But I was an impression that no one got charged.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
In our final episode, we'll talk about the trial, but
just spoiler alert, no intruder has ever ever been charged.
Let's talk about some suspects, because you're like, well, are
there even any suspects or is it just like someone right,
there were suspects.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Also, I teased you.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Last time, and I told you that we would talk
about the confession. Well, before we get to the confession,
let's talk about some of the other suspects. Santa Santa
Claus is one of the suspects in this case.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
So like a mal Santa.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Oh, oh, it's not the real Yes, it's more than
a mal Santa. It's actually a Santa that they knew
that had come.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
To their party.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Oh, like a hired Santa.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
It was kind of a well known guy in town.
He has the big old Santa beard. We'll see a
little video in a second here. His name was Santa
Bill McReynolds. What a name, right, Santa Bill McReynolds.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
I won't be specific, but I know first hand of
a pedophile Santa. If you were a pedophile, this could
be one of the ways you could hide. Yeah, I'm
going to take a guest to say, the vast, vass
vast majority of Santa's are not. But if you wanted
to get away with touching children and getting in close contact,
(34:16):
this would be the way.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Okay, Well, retired journalism professor Santa Bill McReynolds sometimes played
Santa Claus at Boulder holiday parties. Had visited the Ramsays
home shortly before Christmas, knew the family, knew John Benet,
and had brought a small vial of glitter as a gift.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
For John Beney. So this isn't a stranger, not entirely,
it's someone they know.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
He's been to the house, he knows John Benay and
had even given her a gift.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Okay, like that year, just that same Christmas. Yeah, like
the previous thing.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
He could have seen the past ub or even heard.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Any number of things.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Yes, there was some note about his eccentricity, and maybe
to your point, maybe there was some sort of suspicion
because he is a Santa, and maybe people were like,
I don't know, I didn't I didn't think about that honestly, Like,
you've just now ruined both my childhood and actually there
was no Santa in my childhood because in Columbia, was
Baby Jesus. But really yeah, yeah, in Columbia, we didn't
(35:16):
have Santa Claus when I was a kid. Baby Jesus,
Jesus comes down to the chimney. No, no chimney at
midnight on the twenty fourth. Baby Jesus would leave presents
under your pillow.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
He'd walk around in his diapers.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I think it's more ethereal than that. I think he
just kind of manifests down and leaves, you know, presence
under your pillows. And let me tell you they were
cool presents.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I mean, if someone's going to fit down at chimney,
I think Baby Jesus, maybe Jesus actually.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Makes a lot more sense to go down chimneys. Yeah, yeah,
that's true.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Baby Jesus have like a clothes on or because usually
Baby Jesus kind of swaddled in a blanket.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Maybe one of those little white little swaddled things, you know,
floating by the way.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I love hearing about this. Have you heard of the
Dutch Santa like Saint Nick thing. I don't know if
they do this anymore, but up until rather recently they
have this figure like Father Christmas kind of guy, a
Saint Nick or whatever, and he has always black slaves
that are, oh my god, following him around what or
(36:13):
five black they're always black guys, And it's some I
don't know, I don't know, you know, and the Dutch
were prolific slave traders, so I don't know the history there,
but it's been sort of now I'm guessing that if
we look at any practice, you know, like even when
you think of marriage and the father bringing the bride down,
(36:37):
it was because women were possessions and the girl was
a possession of the father and now he's handing her
off to for husbandry, that kind of thing. You know,
when you look at that, you're like, oh, look what
you're doing is It's like, well, it doesn't mean that
anymore now. It just is an expression of love and stuff.
And certainly there's overtones and whatnot, but it's not so
(36:58):
you can have five black guys and not necessarily be
saying this like so but anyway, I just love hearing this,
so said baby Jesus.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
All right, So either way, it's interesting that you point
out that, like, oh, maybe Santa would be a profession
of your Well, so in either case, it brought some
suspicion because he knew the family and Patsy was told
by a friend of hers that little John Beney had
told her. Patsy's friend they were having a conversation the
adult and John Benet about Santa, and John Benney had said,
(37:28):
Santa promised he's going to visit me after Christmas. He's
going to do a special visit. And the adults said, oh, no, Santa,
Santa's coming tonight or whatever, and that John Benay allegedly
had said, oh no, no, no, he said he promised
me He's going to do a special visit.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
I mean that could be any number of things. John
Manny could be exclusive, John Benny could be confused, The
friend could be confused about what she heard for John Binney,
or the guy said I'm going to make a special
visit to your family.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
Or he could be a killer.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
And that.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Was so.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Now that's not like the cops heard that and let's
go arrest him. It's just it's another interesting data point. Okay,
So what do you think was the outcome?
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Well, one, I'm guessing that guy is still being harassed
by a fucking mob online and doxing him and following
him around. I'm just going to take a guess about that.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Here is the outcome. Number one DNA did not match.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
And when I say did not match, it's not just
that that foreign male DNA and the underwear and nails
didn't match. There's just no DNA of Santa found in
the basement or any of the no fingerprints either, right,
so it just wasn't a match.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
He had a solid alibi.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
It is Santa. The main suspects of venture.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Oh okay, he also had a solid alibi, and he
was never charged, meaning solid alibi, like there were witnesses,
like he was at a specific place, other things.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
They did interview him.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
He said he really loved like he thought she was
such a beautiful, wonderful girl. He would never hurt her.
But of course a killer might say that too. He
died in two thousand and two, and he was generally
considered cleared. So none of the serious investigators, even the
ones that were pro IDI, were like it was Sanna, Right,
It just was one of those weird things like, well
he was there, and he there was this weird thing
(39:19):
that John Benea reportedly had said to someone.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yeah, I mean, given how little evidence there is, if
we are hypothesizing about an intruder, then it literally could
be anyone. It could be someone that doesn't know the family,
that knew enough of the family named by a listing,
or broke into the house and then just figured out
things as he was in there, or she or someone
(39:45):
that knew the family, like it could it just could
be anyone, that's right. Yeah, So yeah, Santa is on
that list of anyone.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
The other thing is he was older and like sick
and frail, so him crawling through the basement was also
kind of put into question. But all right, so that's
it for the segment, and then in the patron Zone,
we're going to go over more of the suspects and
a confession apparently, oh definitely the confession, and everyone out
there become a patron and listen to the rest or
(40:13):
watch the rest.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Otherwise, please take care of yourself because you deserve it.
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