The Psychology of Roseanne Barr (2019 Rerun)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
So, Birdo, what do you know about Roseanne bar Roseanne Bar?

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Well, I mean I used to watch Roseanne back in
the heyday of that show, and I loved it. I
really enjoyed it. I had a crush on the blonde girl,
and I just I thought it was a very kind
of human show and I enjoyed it.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
Well, that's what I want to talk about today. I
want to talk about the blonde girl in the Roseanne show.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
No, just joking.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
I want to talk about Roseanne Barr. I want to
analyze her personality.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
What do you say. I think that sounds fascinating. Let's
do it.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
This is the Psychology in Seattle podcast. I'm your host,
doctor Kirkanda. I'm a therapist, a professor, and I think
my favorite character on Roseanne Barr was the boyfriend of
the middle child girl who eventually was on Big Bang Theory.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Well, I've already given away who my favorite character was.
But my name is Lumberto Castine and I develop cable.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
So the caveat here is ethically speaking, I cannot diagnose
from afar. It's ridiculous to do such a thing for
a number of reasons which I always talk about. The
other thing is that all my analysis of Rosanbar's personality
is based on Internet information and nothing else, so all

(01:27):
of it could be lies, literally, and none of that
is a substitute for me working ten to twenty sessions
with a willing client, which is how long it takes
me to assess some OF's personality.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
So you're guaranteeing your diagnosis, right.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
But having said that, for educational purposes, I think it
is sometimes useful to look at someone's online personality and
kind of comment on it from a clinical perspective. Yeah,
so let's look at her personality, and then after I
summarized her personality, I'm going to go into her life
and talk about maybe where the personality came from.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
What would you say about her personality? I had, even
before recent events, I had always considered her loud mouth
controversial and sort of like, I don't give a flying
fuck what you think. This is what I think. I
remember when she sang the national anthem at some baseball

(02:26):
game and it was a compleaed train wreck, but it
was like on purpose sort of, and she didn't give
a shit. It was really weird. So stuff like that,
and I mean, and to be fair, even her tone
down persona in her show was sort of like the
I tell it how it is kind of character even
though it was a much more vanilla version of it.
But yeah, so that was my impression of her. I

(02:50):
also knew about her husband. What was his name, you know,
Tom truelized Tom Arnold. I tend to like a sense
of humor, and I always felt like I remember like thinking, wow,
how could he like she would walk all over him?
It was my thought back in the day.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, so what do you think about So I have
kind of categorized here. There are some people who would
just characterize her. And I've thought this before too, is
that you know, she seems crazy. You know, they'll be like,
she's mentally ill.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
I would have never said that, okay, but I mean
I could see how recently, based on some of the
behavior that that that could be brought up.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
I I kind of had that impression, or at least
of the that was the media. I had that impression
that the media had that impression. You know, she's she's
off the hook, she's going crazy, and she and others
are actually blamed. You know, she had that recent tweet, right,
and she and other people are attributing that tweet to

(03:54):
her quote unquote mental illness.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, I heard that because the tweet was was sort
of racist, right or it was. Yeah. So I think
that the you, the usual Rosanne would have just kind
of maybe come out and doubled down on it or whatever.
But it sounded like she sort of walked it back
and blamed it on the drugs that were due to
the mental.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Well, we'll get into all the different excuses she had
about that when I go into the ch chronology of
her life. But but one of the things that she
attributed to was was mental quote unquote mental illness. Which
it's like, well, which mental illness, you know, because it
doesn't you know, if you have anxiety, that doesn't make
you tweet you know, funny things. So uh so let's

(04:40):
look at what I do think she has. So so
I don't agree with the the which is a ridiculous
quote unquote diagnosis anyway of her just being.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
Generally mentally ill.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
But I find that a lot of people will will
kind of characterize it, like Tom Arnold even will say, like,
you realize that tweet came from a woman who is
quote quote mentally ill, and it's just like, well, which
mental illness are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (05:04):
You know?

Speaker 1 (05:06):
So I speculate, complete speculation based on the very little
that I know on the internet, is that she has
She's on the spectrum of narcisism and histrionic personality. If
you want to learn about narcissistic personality disorder and historyonic
personality disorder, you can become a patron of the podcast
and get access to my deep dives. Patrons of the

(05:29):
podcasts are the only ones who can listen to these
deep dives. I go, you know, several hours talking about
narcissism and historyonic.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
But let me explain.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
So, people of personality disorders are mistreated as a child,
and she has talked about that extensively throughout her life,
being abused by both of her parents, mistreated and that
results in her having little self esteem and a lack
of self I've talked about that in other episodes as well.
Lack of self internutshell is the there's a critical period

(06:02):
in our development as children when we learn who we
are and what we are, how we feel, and when
you're mistreated, you miss that to some extent. So it's
hard to know how you feel, who you are, what
you want, and so when you lack a self. It's
hard for you to have any goals in life that
are consistent because you're more reacting to the outside world

(06:23):
rather than to an internal sense of mission, if that
makes sense.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Sense doesn't mean you don't have because I think the
term you know self is sort of misinterpreted, perhaps because
it can sound like, oh, you don't have a personality
or you don't you know, but it's really they'll appear,
in fact, in Rosannees case, for example, full of personality
and very specific about their choices.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
It seems like, right, some people who lack of self
will actually adopt a gregarious self because they don't know
what else to do. Right, So it's once we get
into chronology of our life, I'll describe this. But she
actually got early accolades in life for being on stage,
being the center of attention, and for even being a

(07:14):
little gregarious with herself early in life, and so this
saved her self esteem from the abuse. It's like your
abuse as a kid. You feel like crap, you feel
like you're worthless, you feel like the world is unsafe place,
and then you're given this platform, You're on a stage literally,
and all of a sudden you're getting all these accolades,
you're getting safety, you're getting attention, you're getting love, you're

(07:34):
getting self esteem. And when that's the only way, you know,
for an average kid, it's like they feel loved, they
feel safe, they feel paid attention to, and you know
they also like to get on.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Stage and get some attention that way. But when the
only way you get.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
Love and attention and any sense of who you are
as a person on the stage, then that solidifies a
particular kind of personality, namely narcisism or history.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Then you have to interrupt every five seconds during a
podcast to say something so your voice is heard.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
So that happened to her. Also, I'm guessing she found
that negative attention is better than no attention early in
life because she seems to crave negative attention. That definitely
seems to be Yeah, so let's look at some evidence
as to you know, this claim that I'm making regarding
histrionic and narcissism.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
I'm not sorry. And by the way, regarding the negative attention,
that that was the piece that was talking about with
the when she's saying the national anthem is that most people,
if if you're like I can't sing so well, or
my voice is terrible or whatever. You're not going to
volunteer or you know, if someone asked, like, do you

(08:48):
want to come sing at this thing, You're not gonna
say yes. But you might if you actually don't mind
the negative attention or in fact seek any kind of attention.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
That and when you suffer from narcissistic personality. And I'm
not saying she has the disorder. My conceptualization is the
non DSM conceptual We tend to be dominated by the DSM.
It's just one book out of thousands personality. You know,
books that discuss personality. They don't talk about disorders. They

(09:18):
just talk about spectrums and personalities. And so I'm talking
about it in terms of that, when you have histrionic
and or narcissistic personality spectrum, you are compelled to go
on stage, whether it's a good idea or not. Like
if someone asks you to go on stage, you don't
have a self to reflect on to say like, well
is this a good idea?

Speaker 2 (09:39):
You know, you just like, oh, on stage, go. You know,
that's where you get love, that's where you get acceptance.
Let's do this. So the evidence is that she talked
the way she talks.

Speaker 1 (09:51):
So a lot of people will on the internet diagnose
people like, oh, this person clearly has narcisistic personality disorder,
or borderline personality or psycho pathic personality. And here's the thing,
unless you're a clinician who works with these people day
in and day out for decades, you really don't know
what the profile is. And when you are an expert

(10:12):
in the area, you actually you actually can pick up
on things pretty quickly. Like, for example, I can assess someone.
When I first started in the profession, I was trained
as a clinician, it took me, I don't know, half
an hour, maybe three sessions to assess major depressive disorder.
It took me a long time because I didn't know
what questions to ask. I didn't know what the answers meant.

(10:34):
You know, it's like, well are you depressed, and it's
just like, yeah, I'm depressed, what does that mean? Like
you know, now I can assess depression within like fifteen seconds.
There are certain hallmarks that I have learned and mannerisms
and phrases that people will use that it doesn't take
much time at all. Now major depression is much easier

(10:55):
to assess. The narcisstic personality. But anyway, the point.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
Is, sorry, I knows depression in twenty seconds because I
ask you, and it takes me five seconds to ask you.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
So the way that she talks is indicative of a
profile of people on narcissistic and history onic spectrum. She
just has kind of even when she's just casually talking,
she just has this way of speaking that comes from
a place of look at.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Me, Wow, I was gonna tell you something.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah, I mean when she I watched a lot of
in my mini deep dive here, I've watched a lot
of interviews with her, and when she's just at home talking,
she doesn't talk like that.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
She doesn't, what I mean, yell the whole time.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, she's not screaming the whole time, which is something
I want to point out. It's like, if you're just
depending on like the few clips that sort of sneak
through to you in the news, like, that's not representative
of who she is.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
I mean, my impression is just from the TV show,
and you know she always kind of talks like this
in the TV show, right, So that's in the direction
of her personality. But anyway, she has a pattern in
life of look at me. And when we get into
the chronology of her life, she I had there's ninety
nine percent of the things that she has done I

(12:09):
was unaware of. You know, she she loves being on stage. Wow,
she loves being in the spotlight. And so that's indicative
of someone with narciss personality historyonic. Now, just being on
stage is not an indication of narcissism or historionic. But
when you are doing all these things and you end

(12:30):
up shooting yourself in the foot a lot, right, which
is the definition of these of these conditions, then we
start looking at an issue there. And she does that
a lot. I think you've said before that just because
someone does something doesn't mean it's harmful to them, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Yeah, So you know, every every person who tweets a
lot is not on narcissistic spectrum, right, you know, it's
only if it's a compulsion, so to speak. Her it's
the only only way you can get self esteem, or
you end up doing it to such an extent that
it actually, you know, hurts you in the end.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
Like if I came to you, I'm like my friend
Bobby hollowed out a watermelon and had sex with it.
You wouldn't be like commit Bobby now, but when I
come to you, I'm like, Bobby's gone broke buying watermelons,
then it might be a problem.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
Or his penis like dissolved away from that. So she
also loves to shock people, like even in interviews she
will sort of dip into very shocking statements. That is
very indicative of people with histrionic personality. So historyonic can

(13:45):
be so people generally know what narcisism is, you know,
grandiose self hi sort of a you're masking a lack
of self esteem with this grandiose false self. With history onic,
it's very similar to narcissm, but it's more along the
lines of I need attention all the time, and I

(14:08):
might get it through sexual kind of bids. You know,
I might if I'm a woman, I might sort of
have my breasts showing a lot or something. Not that
everyone that does that is historyonic. But more importantly, it's
like I have to get people to really know I'm
in the room.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
So narcissistic people to a lesser.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Extent, but historyonic people in particular, when historyonic people walk
in the room, you're just like, wow, they are They
either are very good at like garnering attention and you
walk away going like there's something charismatic or electric about
that person. Or they walk into the room, they garner
a lot of attention and you're just like, my god,

(14:51):
that person has is just annoying with how much sort
of energy they sort of suck out of the room,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
I've always admired historyonic people like Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar. Yeah, exactly,
you're talking about history people. Yeah, thank you, webster, Like
you have to spell out my jokes for the other
percentage of the audience that doesn't. Well, I actually was confirming.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
I was sort of a question or it's like, are
you talking about history, because one could absolutely argue that
Julius Caesar and Alexander the gret were.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
This is why my joke works in so many levels. Yeah. So, yeah,
she loves to shock people.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
Even when she is just kind of hanging out, not
when she knows she's on stage. There are certain there's
a certain way she talks where she will say things
that are.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
Very purposely.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
She has a pattern of purposely trying to shock people,
right trying you know, she's trying to bother people. And
again there's nothing quote unquote wrong with that, but when
you have a pattern of that and often shooting yourself
in the foot, then we're looking at you have locked
in coping style that was locked in because of mistreatment

(16:05):
when you were young. She's often in the limelight and
she was seriously running for president. So did you know
she ran for president?

Speaker 2 (16:13):
I remember something about this. I didn't think it was serious.
I didn't think it was real. Neither did I.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
But people around her, and I think herself in the
interviews I looked at she was seriously as Trump was
running for president, come.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
On, a TV personality getting elected.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
And her website, which I don't know how much she's
involved in her website, but ninety nine percent of her
website is boastful. Okay, Like, just let me read some
quotes here. They're like, you know, who is Roseanne Bar?
Comedy superstar, award winning actress, best selling author, twenty twelve

(16:54):
presidential candidate, and original domestic goddess. Roseanne Barr continues to amaze.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
This is her website? Yeah, so this is her essentially,
it's her blog. You know, I should write a blog.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
Like that, So you know, maybe someone else wrote that
because you know, you're trying to market the site. But
I have to imagine she had something to do with
the wording of it, you know.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
I'd like to I'd like to include the phrase continues
to amaze in every description about myself going forward.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, it also says after nine years, two hundred and
twenty four episodes, four Emmy Awards, and countless other accolades,
she single handedly re landscaped the medium of situational comedy forever.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
Wow. So you know that's a pretty it's a big statement.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah, Like, I don't think just a random person would
word it that way, you know.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
What I mean? That sounds like especially single handedly right.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
Right, single handedly re landscaped the medium of situational comedy forever,
right like.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
Her co stars had nothing to do with it.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
The writers, the directors, the producers like like it. So
I don't know, maybe she had nothing to do with
those wording, but she must know about it. And if
she read it, because that's like on the front page
or something. You know, if you weren't narcissistic or historianic,
you'd be like that needs to be toned down, you
know what I mean? Like anyway, so looking at my

(18:26):
notes here.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Also, she loves to claim she has a lot of disorders.
Like over the years, she's made a lot of what
I would call kind of on the grandiose side of claims.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
I see now, I'm.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Not sure she might actually have all these conditions, but
one of the things that she often talks about is
she has multiple personality disorder or associative identity adity disorder,
and she might have it. It's a real thing. Some
people quote unquote debate if it's a real thing. It's
a real thing. I've treated people with it. It's not
the way it's to depict it in you know, m

(18:59):
night Shehdalan movies, for example. But it's a thing and
it's real. But she often will be bragging about it,
you know, like on Joe Rogan. I think Joe Rogan
asked her, like, so I heard you have multipersonality and
you suffer from multipersonality. She's like, I don't suffer from
multip personality. I love the fact I have multipersonality.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
Oh was she like, I love my personalities.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
No, she doesn't do that, which would actually lend its
least some evidence to it. But people with associated identity disorder.
They don't usually revel in the fact that they have it.
It's usually quite disturbing.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
That seems it would be very disturbing, and they're usually
quite shameful of it. You know.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
Now, I'm not saying she doesn't have it, but there's
a lot of people who, you know, say you're histrionic
and you're narcissistic, you know, and you've learned that the
only way you can get attention is by alarming people
around you. And you kind of feel like sometimes you're
different people, you know, because sometimes you just fly off

(20:02):
the handle, and sometimes you're calm, and sometimes you're happy,
and sometimes you want to kill yourself. Right, you could
interpret that, and I've seen people do this. They'll be like, oh,
I have multiple personalities, but when I really go through,
you know, an assessment, which could take a long time,
because what's the difference between you know, a part of
yourself that gets angry and an actual other alter because

(20:25):
you know, it's there's a kind of a fuzzy line there,
and you have to rely on the client's assessment of
that total self report. So they could, you know, they
could report it as oh, I am a completely different person.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
When I'm in that state.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
In fact, I have done things while I'm angry that
I don't even remember. That kind of sounds like associative
identity disorder, but could also just be the way they're
framing it or they're you know, so I don't know,
I have an assessor, but the way she talks about
her associate of identity disorder sounds more histrionic than it

(20:59):
does associative identities, Like.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
The Hulk has dissociative identities. Actually, I've never thought about
that before. That's absolutely true.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
Another thing that I think she suffers from is what
I'm going to call magical thinking. It's not really the
same thing. But you know, she had early experiences with
Judaism and Mormonism. Did you know she grew up in
Salt Lake City?

Speaker 2 (21:22):
What.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah, I'm going to get into the chronology on that,
but so I'm going to describe that later. But I
think she because of her early experiences, kind of bizarre
experiences with religion that were very over the top, she
developed I think a personality that is, and I've seen

(21:43):
this before and it's not in the DSM, and it's
rarely talked about. People like this will have a lot
of kind of weird conspiratorial or religious type thinking in
their adult life, and they're really quite rigid about it,
and it's sort of imperva to data that people will
throw out to them.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
Do you know any people like this? Yeah, definitely right.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
And did they grow up in a weird religious environment
when they were young?

Speaker 2 (22:10):
Some of the people that I'm thinking of, definitely right.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
So you know, imagine you're four or five, six years
old and half of your world or more even is
just dominated by demons and angels that are around, and
you know, you know, your mom might even say I
was possessed yesterday. You know, it gives you a very
different sense of the world, right, And as you grow up,

(22:38):
you might reject your parents' religion, but you're sort of
still open to very odd points of view that feel
right to you because it was sort of injected into
your persona, you know, your personality when you were very young.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
So in high school, you know, when I was in Colombia,
I was surrounded by a pretty homogeneous religious set, right,
Like everyone pretty much was Catholic. There might have been
a couple of Jewish people, but you know, like mostly
everyone was Catholic. But when I moved up here. Of
course there's a lot more variety, and specifically in high school,

(23:13):
some of my friends were reborn Christians. But then when
there was a subset of these friends that were the
kind of reborn Christian that was firmly believers of a
demon warfare and angels and demons battling at all times
in current reality and all these things, and so in

(23:34):
their mind, like and they would talk about this frequently.
They were a constant warfare, spiritual warfare. So like something
would happen in the middle of the day and they
would just like all like break out into like furious
prayer because they knew that, like the demons were trying
to do stuff, and this was their reality. And if
you had asked them like like do you mean literally,

(23:55):
like there's like yes, they're right in this room, like
right now, so you know, like when you're firmly convinced
of that, and they're still young, you know, teenagers whatever,
and that's your reality, Like absolutely, you're going to be
open to a lot of different interpretations of right things.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
So my hypothesis and my observation is you take that
person who has a you know, who had a lot
of neurons firing in that realm growing up. And let's
say they grow up and they're just like, I'm not
into that anymore. But then they start hearing about like Illuminati.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Right.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
It has nothing to do with demon stuff, but it
but it fits a certain comfort zone in their psyche
that that other things don't, you know, like believing in
what you see, you know, believing in concrete things. Hard
science doesn't feel familiar, doesn't feel familiar to them. What
feels familiar to them is, you know, things you can't

(24:53):
see and things that are actually even rejected by scientists,
you know.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
And I've seen this.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
I hadn't ever thought about it until I did this
mini deep dive on Rosean bar and that it's like,
you know, you can actually have a personality, and I
know research of.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
Actually researchers have actually looked into.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
This sort of that is open to odd beliefs, is
what I'm going to say. I'm not going to say
they're wrong. I'm just say they're out of the norm,
you know. And I think she actually suffers from that
given her history, which we'll get into a second. Another
thing that she suffers from, again non DSM stuff, is
self sabotage. Masochism is a you know, Freudian word. Basically,

(25:37):
when you self sabotage a lot, you have a personality
of self sabotage, personality of masochism. You subconsciously believe that
you deserve abuse, essentially, and so you will do things
in your life to incur abuse on you, right, And
she does that a lot. I mean, there are so
many things she's done throughout her life that have almost

(26:02):
seemingly purposely drawn the ire of society that it seems
too much of a pattern. You know, after a while,
you would think she would learn, oh, I should be
a little bit more careful, or I should run this
past a few people before I do them. And that
tweet was just the latest example, you know. And the

(26:26):
reasons why people do this is because it's comfortable to them,
Because when you grow up abused, it can sometimes And
I've and I've actually worked with people professionally who are
like this, who they will they'll be in a good
place in their life and they'll just be like, I
don't feel comfortable, Like I feel uneasy, I don't know,
I don't know what's happening. I feel anxious, I feel

(26:47):
like you know, I need to go back to that
violence because it doesn't feel right to me, or or
their life is going well and they're used to their
life being a train wreck, you know, just like normally
I'm recovering from some substance issue or I got fired
or financially things, and right now everything's going well and

(27:08):
I feel uneasy about it totally.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
It's like with with me and money. It's it's been
only yeah really like the last maybe five years, maybe
eight years, but for the longest time. Anytime I had
paid down my debts or whatever and I had like
money accumulating in the bank, I would start feeling like

(27:34):
I gotta spend that money. I gotta spend this doesn't
feel right, like, you know, and and I get like.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
It was uncomfortable. Yeah, interesting, Yeah, that's that thing. I
gotta spend the money, right, It's irrational.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
Right, It just doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
It's like, why would it be uncomfortable when things are
going well? Because when you have a deep seated belief
that was taught to you when you were young that
you are a piece of s, then you when your
life is going as such that you're not a piece
of s, then you are like, something's out of whack here.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
For yeah right, yeah, I'm you.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Know, this is all subconscious I should feel like I
should feel worthless, right, so what's going on here?

Speaker 2 (28:18):
You know?

Speaker 1 (28:19):
Well, then you subconsciously self sabotage and then you're like, okay,
now I'm in the comfort zone. But consciously you're like, well,
this sucks because everyone hates me.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
You know. I see this sometimes when like when I
try to compliment some types of people, like they it's
so obvious they really don't like compliments. And I don't
mean just like women, like men or whatever, it doesn't matter.
It's like a certain type of person and I'm imagining

(28:49):
it has something to do with their you know, their
upbringing personality all these experiences, because it's like it could
be a thing like you know that that speech you
gave was really good or something, and it's like, oh no,
that was terrible, right, And you know, there's a difference
between the sort of perfectionists like like, h yeah, it
was okay, but I really need to still work on

(29:09):
this one section. But it's really more like it's because
you're giving a compliment, the reaction is oh no, that
was horrible. I used to struggle a little bit with
this in that I would have this mix like I
remember when I first started playing shows, I would have
this mix of like after I was done playing, I
was so longing for everyone to come and tell me

(29:31):
how amazing it was, and I was really stressed if
no one, if someone wasn't coming up. But as soon
as someone would come up and say a compliment, I
would I would immediately be like oh no, no, no,
like totally dismissive, you know. And if someone and you know,
many people didn't come up or say anything, some people

(29:52):
might even like come up and give me criticisms. I
was like always internally like oh why is everyone not
adoring me? Like this sucks? Right? But again, if someone's
trying to give me a compliment, I wouldn't react well.
And I remember I started noticing this in other people,
and when I saw that it felt so bad to
give compliments to someone that didn't like take them graciously,

(30:15):
that I started changing how I would react to a
compliment so that it wouldn't feel that bad. Good.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
What you're describing more is the narcissistic spectrum actually than
the self sabotage spectrum, you know, the one the compulsion
to get up on stage. Two the tremendous meaning that
it's placed on how people react to you when you're
on stage, that your entire being is dependent on people
not only just kind of liking it, which is like,

(30:43):
you know, you play, you write songs, you get a
band together, you're playing on stage. What's the chance that
everyone's going to be, like, my god, that was the
best show I've ever seen in my life.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
I know this is your first show.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, and I know I've I've never heard your music before,
and I don't even like rock that much, you know, Like,
but my god, that was amazing. And the shoot yourself
in the foot part comes in because you're so needing it,
and you're also so embarrassed about needing it that when
someone actually gives you a compliment you kind of blow

(31:20):
it off.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
You're just like, oh, well, whatever, you know, it's fine, Yeah, exactly,
And it's that and maybe also internally going like that
was terrible. So like if anyone compliment not again, not literally,
but subconsciously, like, if anyone compliments me, they must be
morons because that was terrible.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
Right, So that's that's a good description of the destructive
side of narcissistic spectrum. You know, people often think, oh,
he's so narcissistic. It's just like, well, if he is
truly narcissistic personality, then he is truly suffering in the
way that you were talking about. So let's take a break,
and then when we get back, let's continue talking about Roseanne.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Are what do you say?

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Let's do it all right, we're back from the break.
If you haven't yet become a patron of the podcast,
do so now again. As I said earlier, when you
come make a patron of the podcast at patreon dot com,
you get access to hundreds of premium episodes, such as

(32:21):
our episodes on histrionic personality and narcissistic personality and borderline
personality and suicide prevention and all these kinds of things.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
Not only that, I say a lot of subliminal things
in the episodes that only Patreons can hear.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
Oh so, Roseanne, after doing a mini deep dive on
her and watching a lot of interviews, she completely reminds
me of someone that I knew very well twenty years ago,
almost like in real life. Yeah, like they're twins, you
know what I mean. This is a friend of mine
she was abused, mistreated, She was considered very mentally unstable.

(33:00):
She loved to shock people. I think she still does.
She would just say the most outrageous things and kind
of get away with it a lot, and people just
knew her. Some people are actually kind of scared of
her in the same way that you could imagine people.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, she kind of got that sense from Tom Arnold,
like he was a little scared of it.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
She was deeply troubled, you know, very you know, she
wasn't a happy camper all the time. And I get
the impression that Roseanne Barr is like that too. A
lack of self meaning hard. You know, she didn't really
know how she felt. She didn't really know what her
goals were in life. She didn't really know, you know,
who she was as a person. Outside of being a

(33:44):
shocking person, she was a little narcisstic, little histrionic. She
had substance problems. My understanding of Roseanne bar is, you know,
she has a lot of substance problems. Maybe not like
full blown heroin addiction, but like like in the in
the Joe Rogan interview, she talks about how she's only

(34:06):
down to like, you know, she started smoking after the tweet.
Oh okay, and that that's you know, that's interesting, right, It's.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Like right, I mean I had heard that she was
on some medication when she did.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
She was on ambient ambient, which we'll get into it
in a bit. But she she talks about starting smoking
because of the tweet, so that that tells you you're
sort of oriented towards substances to soothe yourself.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
And then she and then she talks about how she
hates smoking all the time. You know, uh, she hates Oh,
she hates it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
She She's like, it's I'm trying to quit and so.
On the Joe Rogan podcast, she's talking about how she's
down to ten cigarettes. But in that episode, I think
she smokes twenty twenty cigarettes.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
I picked the wrong week to quit smoking.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
Well, but my but my supposition is that she isn't
down to ten cigarettes, but she wants to be down
to ten cigarettes.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
You know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Again, hold a speculation, but anyway, she totally reminds me
of this friend I knew. The other thing about my
friend was that she was diagnosed. She was in and
out of hospitals, just like Roseanne bar Rosean Bar has
been in and out of hospital in her whole life. Yeah,
mental hospitals. She's been diagnosed with many things like mental illness, yeah,

(35:19):
like bipolar, borderline, PTSD, dissociative identity disorder, psychosis, And I
remember the clinicians had a really hard time pinning it down.
They're just like, because it's a weird situation to have
bipolar and borderline. It can happen sometimes, but it's like
you usually just have one or the other. Oh interesting,
and so they but but my friend was diagnosed with

(35:42):
with both. And I didn't see any reports of Roseanne
being diagnosed with borderline, but she's diagnosed with several you know,
dissociative identity disorder, bipolar, you know a lot of different
things and so and yet when you look at her,
she doesn't really seem to exhibit that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
You know.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Interesting, because my polar is really quite specific. Mania is
a very specific condition that isn't just like you're going crazy,
like it's it's very specific.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
But anyway, so.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
The thing that you know, I bump up against this
is like, well you know what DSM labeled?

Speaker 2 (36:20):
Does this fit? You know?

Speaker 1 (36:21):
The thing that I just resolved to is like look,
not every human being fits easily into the into the DSM, right,
And my friend didn't, and I don't think Roseanne does either.
So you know, again, it's all a matter of what
coping style worked when she was a young child. And
I suspect that you know that she endured a lot

(36:42):
of mistreatment growing up. She actually talks about that, and
she evaded the mistreatment and gained love and attention by
being on stage by constantly seeking approval. That's another part
of the narcissism and history onic is that you're not
just wanting to be on stage, but you like are
desperate for approval, and the way that you talked about
you weren't just wanting to be on stage to perform,

(37:03):
like you A.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Big part of that was like desperation. Tell me I'm legitimate.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yeah, tell me I'm worth something, right, you know what
I mean? And a bit overblown again because it's like
who goes to a show and it's just like, man,
that singer is worth it, he is worthwhile?

Speaker 2 (37:21):
Well, no, and more than that, like everyone should stand
in a line and come up and tell me that
and greet me, right, right.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
I suspect also that she got a lot of attention
for being opinionated as a child, which we'll get into
in a second. And also I think she coped with
the male treatment and maybe social issues growing up by
not worrying about what other people think about her. Hmm,
you know, by just being like, I don't care what
people think. You know that that's a very common child

(37:50):
thing that I've seen in children that go through mass treatment.
It's like, I don't care what my parents think. You know,
they adopt that as they absolutely care, but they had
that facade because it protects them, and I think she
has that, and so growing up this she has these
defenses that sort of solidifies it. And then you know,

(38:11):
when she's not stressed as an adult, things are fined
and she seems totally stable. And a lot of the
interviews I saw she seemed totally stable, like nothing abnormal, nothing,
you know, strange. Part of the Joe rogan uh interview
was like that as well. She might have some weird beliefs,
but you know a lot of people have weird beliefs.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
We do.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
But then when she gets stressed out, she regresses to
that childhood coping style, which is to be outrageous and
to be kind of a know it all, to be
stubborn and to say things like I don't care what
people think and be very cold to people. So I
think that I hope that is a is A Is
that a good description of a personality?

Speaker 2 (38:52):
I think so? I mean, it seems like from my
cursory understanding, it seems right.

Speaker 1 (38:59):
Now, again pure speculation based on internet limited internet data.
There are probably people listening to to this episode that
are actual, you know, like Roseanne scholars who have watched
every interview and read her autobiographies and you know, so
you know who knows. Okay, So let's go through her

(39:19):
life and you know you can chime in here. So
nineteen fifty two. She's born into a Jewish family, oldest
of four children her mother.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
But she grew up in Salt Lake City, right.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Right, Jewish family in Salt Lake City. Her parents were
working class, and one of her grandmothers was actually a
devout Orthodox Jew.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
By the way, isn't it terrible that the class is
called working class? Yeah, like you know, like the implication
being like, oh, they have to.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Work, yeah right, yeah, So the Salt Lake City. So
I'm going to read some passages from her autobiography about
her childhood. So when they lived in Salt Lake City,
she was seemed like she was pretty close to her mom,
and her mom was really afraid of the Mormons, and

(40:16):
so they would hide their jewishness, you know. And she
got Bell's palsy, some kind of some kind of condition
on the left side of her face, and it was
like numb or like a stroke kind of thing, and
she wrote, my mother called in a rabbi to pray
for me, but nothing happened. Then my mother got a
Mormon preacher. He prayed and I was miraculously cured.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
WHOA.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
So her mother thought this was a sign that they
should be Mormon. So when my face became healed, mother
accepted it as a sign from God that the Mormon
faith was the one true religion on the face of
the earth, and that she and I should join it.
But she was afraid of the wrath of her own mother,
who was an orthor the dox Jew, and so there

(41:02):
was a compromise. Friday, Saturday, Sunday morning, I was a Jew,
Sunday afternoon, Tuesday afternoon, and Wednesday afternoon we were Mormons.
What So, after I learned about my people being murdered
in every country by America. She's talking about Jewish people
being murdered everywhere. I could then learn about my new
forebears being persecuted in Illinois, New York, in Utah as

(41:23):
Mormons were persecuted, and this made me that this made
for me a complete and well rounded feeling of paranoia.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
Oh wow, So.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
She's joking about it, but I think that that is abusive.
She is at this point, she's a young child, she's
like three, four or five years old. She's internalizing these
notions that her people are being So she's writing that
she knew that as a young child, you know that
she knew that her people were being killed and persecuted,
Mormons and Jewish, you know, and.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
From all sides, and you know, sort of being asked
to split between two faiths and two realities. Right. She
said that her father sexually abused.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
Her early when Roseanne was younger, and then more recently
she said that he didn't sexually abuse her, he emotionally
abused her. So I don't know the story on that,
you know, Like if I don't know how she was
convinced for so long that she was being sexually abused
by her dad, and then later to say no, you know,
I don't really know the story on that. But again,

(42:27):
that's some of that hinting of histrionic. So if so,
I don't know a complete speculation, but I've seen this before.
You're you're thirty years old, and you feel, you know, upset,
you know, you're just you're kind of unstable. You have
some emotional issues, mood issues, and you know that your
dad was emotionally abusive and distant and not a good person.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
You have bad memories about him.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
And you have bad memories about him. And then and
then someone comes along and says like, you know, you
might have been sexually abused, right, And you're like, yeah,
you know that fits right, that fits, And you don't
really go down the road of really kind of making
sure and you're like, yeah, I kind of remember this
and that, and then and then, without thinking about it much,
you just start telling everyone he's sexually abused you. I

(43:12):
have no idea if this is Roseanne's case, but I
have seen histrionic people do that before because it serves them, right.
It's like it's much more attention getting to say I
was sexually abused than I was emotionally abused. Now people
are actually sexually abused all the time, and it could

(43:33):
be Roseanna. I don't know, but it's just one thing
to think about. I mean, especially the fact that in
more recent interviews she's saying no, no, no, he never
sexually abused I know I said that before, but he
never sexually abused me.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
It's like, how could that come out? Now?

Speaker 1 (43:48):
That could be part of our associative identity disorder as well,
because you can get kind of messed up about details.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
So it could go either way there, like totally could
have And now now she's like no, right, right exactly,
So here's where the narcissism and histrionic really become solidified.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
So age eight, she you know, and this sounds just
so weird to me that she gave speeches for youth
at Mormon churches around Utah.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
That sounds right though, Like you know, in a lot
of these hardcore religious communities, they incentivize the kids to
get involved and if they find a kid that speaks, well,
they leveraged the hell out of them. Eight. Yeah, there's
all these videos on YouTube of little young preachers that
like imitate like the big fiery preachers and stuff like that.

(44:37):
And they're so beloved by their communities. And I remember
even one clip of one of those Mariy Povich or
one of those shows where they had one of those
kids on and you know, the host was trying to say, like,
do you really understand what you're even talking about? Because
this kid just like you know, in the Fire and
the Prims, you know, like this kind of thing. So

(44:59):
I I think it's a trope, like you find these
these communities that you know, they value a preacher, they
have a strong religious community, and then if you find
and they incentivize youth participation, and if you're a charismatic
young one and can speak that same truth, then everyone,
all the adults can go like whoa, that's that's great.

(45:21):
You know, yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
And as you talk about it, I'm reminded of other
depictions or other personalities I've seen. And I think part
of the reason why it's so compelling to the community
that believes in whatever the kid is saying is that
it feels more pure. You know, if an eight year
old is saying, you know, the same things, it seems like, well,
it feels like it must be coming from God because

(45:45):
an eight year old couldn't come up with that themselves.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
Especially an extra eloquent eight year old or whatever.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Yeah, they must be channeling to God, you know. So yeah,
so she started doing that and she gave it. You know,
she travel all around Utah. So imagine that you're mistreated,
you're terrified of persecution to Jews, Mormons, you have low
self esteem. I don't know if she you know, she
might have been overweight during that time. I'm not sure.
I also heard that she has some Native American in

(46:14):
her blood, and so she she had, you know, slanty eyes,
so to speak. Anyway, you're you're mistreat you have you
have low self worth, and all of a sudden, the
Mormon Church is, you know, taking you all over all
over Utah at the age of eight, and there are
droves of kids going She is awesome. And you're standing

(46:36):
on stage and you're spouting Mormon stuff. You know, you're
just like Mormon this, Mormon that, Mormon that, and people
love you. And then she got elected to president of
the Mormon Youth.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Group in Utah.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Then she started giving speeches to adults, not just to
other kids. And she wrote, I thank God for helping
my mother to find the true Church, and even though
all of my ancestors were murdered recently, I still know
that this is the true religion of God on earth.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
I don't know what she means, wow, meaning that the
Jews had been murdered in World War Two.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
Yeah, and then she says I was the darling of
the Mormon hour, as everyone was just so very excited
by the blessing of a member of the House of
Judah not going to have to spend all of eternity
in Hell.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
I was quite because so I guess you.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
Would say, I'm a Jew who converted to Mormonism so
I don't have to go to Hell.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
I was quite pleased about it myself, feeling extremely superior
to those other lost people of Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhism, Islamic,
Muslim socialists, and the Sikh belief systems, who were all,
unfortunately and most certainly doomed. So again, that's a narcissistic thing.
I'm standing on stage, I'm the voice of Mormonism, and

(47:59):
all those other people are going to Hell. They're all doomed.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
You know.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
It sets up an interesting mindset that, if solidified, can
look kind of weird when you're an adult.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
You know, one thing I don't think we've ever talked
about is so imagine the pressure. So if a child
firmly fully believes that there is a hell, there's a heaven, right,
such that the hell they believe in is literally the
eternal damnation kind of hell, right, Okay, Now imagine that

(48:32):
child has a close relative, let's say a dad who
is an atheist, yeah, or doesn't go to church, right,
And so imagine the pressure that child would feel to
somehow save that parent. That was what I felt about
my dad, because in my mind, all the way till
I don't know, my mid twenties or something, I was

(48:54):
always like, how do I save him? Maybe if I
could just give the right speech, Maybe if I could
just you know, I just I have to be able
to save his soul. And but I started as a
little kid feeling that way, you know, like, oh my gosh,
my dad's going to hell. Right. That puts a lot
of stress. You know.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
Let's let's make a different analogy. Let's say that you
live in a war torn country and your father is
a sergeant in the military, and every time he walks
out the door, you're worried he's going to get killed
legitimately by some you know, some conflict that's going to
put stress on you, that's going to have a traumatic

(49:31):
effect on you.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
That's the same thing.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
You know, you're taught ah, and as a child, you
don't really have the ability to kind of think, well,
you know, maybe God has a different plan or you know,
you're black and white thinker, you know this, this person's
gonna for eternity going to be burning in hell. And
how much how much stress that would put on you? Yeah,

(49:55):
So fast forward to her teenage years. She was hospitalized
for the first time age fourteen. Wow, for nine months?
What Yeah, okay, that's serious, right, So she I don't
know what it was for. I suspect it must have
been for suicide.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Nine months. Yeah, nine months. That sounds like pregnancy.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
So and she'd been hospitalized, you know, several times after
that as well. Nineteen sixty nine, age sixteen, she writes,
I remember, at the age of sixteen, I was in
school skimming through a medical journal. Miraculously, the book just
opened up to the page on Bell's palsy, which was
the name of the disease which had led me led

(50:38):
me into what turned out to be ten years of
the Mormon lifestyle. So, you know, remember she had that
Bell's palsy. The Jewish you know guy came over, tried
to fix her, didn't work, and then the Mormon guy
came over, prayed and fixed her. And she says that
that completely shifted my life into the warmon lifestyle. So

(51:01):
she was totally in the Mormon thing. The information in
the journal stated that Bill's palsy was a temporary paralysis,
usually lasting only forty eight hours. I only remember. I
only remember that I went just a wee bit mad
and started laughing and screaming at the same time. That

(51:21):
very afternoon, I drank beer, smoked two cigarettes, tried to
purchase drugs, and begged Eddie to go to go with
me down to a ravine and fuck my brains out.
As a member of the church. He declined in a
manner rather like blind panic, probably thinking that I was
possessed by Satan himself.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Then later that.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
Evening he called me at home to inquire about if
I was okay and could we still do it. I
told him, as I have told them all, honey, you
never gets a second chance. So this kind of illuminates
her funny way of writing. But you know, if you
really look at this, she she is terrified by this

(52:03):
condition of her face going numb. Her mother is an
Orthodox Jewish person thinks, you know, God is involved somehow
Jewish God doesn't help Mormon God helps throws him into
into this, into this totally you know, bifurcated life of
Mormonism and secret jew you know, because she's still three
days a week Jewish and her dad was presumably completely Jewish.

(52:28):
She becomes like a famous child, yeah, a famous Mormon
youth for ten years in Utah.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
She comes across this medical.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
Journal and it's like through I mean, because I bet
you know in her speaking around Utah, she's like, the
Mormon God saved my face, right, you know, a Mormon
man prayed over.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
Me and God saved me. And that's what you know
I was.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
I was like Paul with you know, this gales falling
from Saul, with the scales falling from my eyes. And
then all of a sudden she reads this journal and
she's like it would have gone away regardless. Everything is
a lie that you know, what else is a lie?
And because of everything that's pent up inside of her,

(53:18):
of rebellion and anger and mistreatment and you know, worthlessness
of being abused and mistreated and injected with lots of
scary things. She says, I went a wee bit crazy
and I started laughing and screaming at the same time,
and I ran away and drank beer and smoked cigarettes
and tried to get drugs, and I begged a guy to,

(53:40):
you know, go down to a ravine and quote unquote,
fuck my brain's out. So you know, that's an interesting response.
You know, it's not like, oh, that's interesting. I mean,
this is someone who has issues, right that are being
tamped down temporarily by very thin, yeah, thin barriers.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Ye, the damn is not strong, right, There's a lot
of pressure down there of worthlessness and anger and rage probably, and.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
A thin veil of Mormonism was just barely holding it down.
And then that burst and like everything came out. Later
that year, she was hit by a car and she
had a traumatic brain injury. Wait what yeah, and God,
and again this is the pattern. So you know the
woman I knew twenty years ago very well, Yeah, she had.

(54:34):
It was a very similar story. It was like everything
bad that could happen to someone did happen to her,
and and you know, it's hard to know if it
could be bad luck, but I think it's also just
like when you are self sabotaging and histrionic, you kind
of put yourself in a lot of dangerous situations.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
You don't watch what who's coming down the road, and
you just cross the street.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Yeah, and they said, I don't know, you know, the
actual it was reported that after the brain injury her
behavior changed, So it's like, is that a factor.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
In her issues? But again, we don't need.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
To look to that as the sole reason is they
were already a lot of clues.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
I did hear that, though I didn't remember that. I
had heard that she had had some sort of car
accident or something and that that had affected her.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
Yeah, while she was in the hospital. I don't know
if it was for this one or the last one,
but she had a baby and it was put up
for adoption. So that's a pretty that's a pretty big trauma.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
You know, Wait a minute, I was joking about the
pregnancy thing, I know, but.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
Yeah, so that's a pretty big trauma. You're a young woman, teenager,
you are pregnant. That's a big deal. For nine months
and then you give birth and then the baby just
goes away. You know that that's going to take a toll.
She moved out, she became a stand up comedian. Fast
forward to when she's in her thirties. She's on the

(56:01):
Johnny Carson Show, then she's on Letterman, and then she
was you know, she was starting to become kind of
a known woman's stand up comic. And her whole thing
was the domestic goddess thing.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
Oh what was that she was?

Speaker 1 (56:15):
You know, her stand up comedy was Her stick was
that she was a housewife who would make fun.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
It was like her Roseanne characters on the TV show.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
She would make fun of man and she would talk
about how crappy her life was because it was that
kind of stoke. So that led to the Roseanne, Right,
So the Roseanne TV show was at least, you know,
partially based on her stand up Okay, but before she
was on Roseanne, she was offered you know what TV show,

(56:47):
major TV show.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
At the time. Role she was offered, which makes total
sense to me. Roseanne, major TV show, late eighties. Oh,
like the Growing Growing was it?

Speaker 1 (57:02):
No, it's the Facts of Life. No, it's a similar
show to Roseanne and in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
Oh another family show. Yeah, family matters or no growing pains,
married with children, married with children of course. So I
don't know if that's false, but I read that she
was offered That would have been totally wrong, but that
was well, yeah, it would have been different, very different,

(57:27):
but interesting to think about, you know, but because she
would have dominated the you know, she would have sort
of dominated the scene.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
Uh yeah, but we think about Roseanne bar and what's
his face, you know, going head to head? Like it
could have been an interesting show. Although peg Bundy was
you know, she was perfect. She's iconic and she's the
voice of Futurama. But but she turned it down, like,
which is interesting. You know, she she she was offered it.

(57:58):
She's like no, and then she she wanted her own thing.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
Yeah, I think that's part of it.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
She did an HBO special and she got an award
for that. Then in nineteen eighty eight, the Cosby Show
executive producers wanted to make a sitcom about a working
class family.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
Oh there you go.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
So this is interesting, right because they have a black
rich family right now, they're like, oh, we want a white,
white working class Yeah. So it aired in late nineteen
eighty eight, And how long do you think it took
for this show to become popular, Roseanne.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
I feel like it was popular by the time I
was here, so at least no more than two years,
maybe just one.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
Year right away. It was an insta hit, like from
episode one. Essentially it was a huge surprised Yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
Like I moved up September nineteen ninety. Oh no wait,
but even before that, I had been for vacation in
probably eighty eight. But I feel like I didn't really
watch it till I had moved up here, and it
was huge, Like nineteen ninety it was, yeah, huge. I
didn't really watch this so that much.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
I was, you know, seventeen at the time and wasn't
really watching TV. It's sort of a black hole for me,
and so, you know, it wasn't really on my radar.
The Cosby Show I watched because it was already on
for a few years at that point. So first season
it rocketed up to number two behind.

Speaker 2 (59:24):
Which show number two behind the Kozi Show, right behind
the Cosby Show. What do you remember about this show? So?
John Goodman was I really loved him. He was probably
my second favorite character. So you know, it was her, him,
their two daughters, and her sister and her son.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
That was later, No, it was right away really yeah, Okay,
he was a little boy. He wasn't he wasn't involved much.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
I really remember him.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
But I recently watched the first episode, so or today
I watched the first episode.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Okay, yeah, man, it's based on that. So, you know,
a lot of it was about, you know, the girls
having trouble in school or job problems and the you know,
Roseanne and John Goodman. They would have arguments, but it
was always they had like a dynamic that worked because
like they would they would like resolve them, you know,

(01:00:20):
and like they would work through them, and so there
was never any like really re traumatizing kind of scenes
between their domestic interactions. And I always liked the John
Goodman character because he always seemed kind of like a
little more grounded even though they you know, it was
clear they didn't have a lot of money, Like he
was kind of like make do like you know that

(01:00:44):
kind of thing. Yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
He was more of like the straight person, like, yeah,
he was the Marge and she was the She was
the you know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
And that's the thing they didn't treat him as an idiot. Yeah,
that actually stood out a little bit because compared to
some of the other sitcoms at the time, and certainly
the Simpsons and stuff, like the guy was sort of
like the idiot character, John Goodman wasn't portrayed that way
at all.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Yeah, and I like your description of their romance or
their relationship. You know, they were very you know, they
would joke around a lot with each other. They would
mess with each other, That's what she would say, like
I want a divorce or something, and he'd be like, fine,
let's do it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
But they would very quickly be very sweet to each other.
You know. Did you like the show? I did. I
really did enjoy it. I don't know how far into
my years I ended up watching it, because I didn't
watch it all the way to the end, for example,
but there was a few years where I was watching it.
I enjoyed the show. I felt that, like I said,

(01:01:50):
very human, very real world kind of things. I really had,
like I said, a little crush on the blonde girl,
and I just I don't know I could relate to it,
you know. Yeah, it was for you younger listeners who
might not have been around then. It was a very

(01:02:11):
different show for the time.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
Since then, there have been many shows like it, but
at the time it was I mean, there had been
shows like it before, which we'll get into, but I
just want to go over the shows that were the popular.
The sitcom was the popular form sure of the time,
Like you know, this is where Friends emerged out of

(01:02:33):
this and Seinfeld and you know you got a long
string of these kind of shows, Happy Days and so
what other sitcoms were on the air on nineteen eighty eight,
And all of these were gigantic shows, every one of.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
These, right, So again we said Cosby's Show. So I
don't know remember the years, but here, you know, there
was Webster, there was different Strokes. Yeah, there was Growing Pains.
There was the one with Ercle maybe that was a
little after Idios, little after Yeah, man, what else was there?

(01:03:10):
Silver Spoons Silverspoons, which I never watched that one, but
I like that one. Uh, And then the one I like, Uh,
I don't care what you say anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
And Buddies that was that was off the air by then. Okay,
that had a short run actually with Tom.

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Makes about the Facts of Life. Facts of Life. I
loved the Facts of Life When I was good. I
learned about the facts of life from watching The Facts
alf alf Right. Family Ties, Yeah, Golden Girls. I didn't
mention Family Ties because I didn't know if it was
still on. Yeah, so Family Ties was one of my
favorite shows.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Yeah, Family Ties. They were probably in the years when
they had the cute little.

Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
Kid like I was no longer watching that one. Who's
the Boss, the Jefferson's Boss. That was another favorite show
of mine, Mark and Mindy. Yeah, well that one was
that one still and that wasn't still.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
I think so maybe not WKRP. I don't know if
that was all, but I think I'm just naming eighties.
So now the some people will say, and I think
Roseanne Barr will say on our website that, you know,
this was mind blowing because it was the very first
working class family sitcom, which is not true. What other

(01:04:25):
working class sitcoms came before her show?

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Well, I mean it's just so Family Ties doesn't count.
They weren't rich.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
They were rich rich, I mean not rich, but they
were at least middle class, so.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
That's not working class.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
No, oh my gosh, working classes like construction. You know,
he was a construction worker. Who wasn't always getting jobs,
and so sometimes he didn't. Like in the first episode,
he you know, in the morning, Roseanne's like, what are
you doing today? And he's like, he's like, well, I
got this guy. He might he might have a job for.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
Me with construction. She she goes to work at like
a factory. I see, so working class means sometimes working
class because you can't get a job. No, it means
low paying job.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
She comes home and he's drinking beer and she's like,
what are you doing. He's like, he's like, oh, well,
you know, I would I look for a job. He's like,
what in a six pack?

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
You know? So you know, yeah, that was you know,
but you're saying, I guess I have a distorted you
know what it is? I know what it is. The
working class in this country definitely seemed like the middle
class in Columbia, right, all right, So I don't know then,
because everything I can think of like different strokes. He's like, rich, well,

(01:05:43):
I'm talking about like.

Speaker 1 (01:05:44):
Before, so we're talking early eighties, seventies, even.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
Going to Flintstones exactly. That's why, Okay, Flintstones is the Honeymooners.
Honeymooner's absolutely that was the very first. Okay, Archie Bunker
on the Family, On the Family, and the spinoff Jefferson's.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
Jefferson's, Well, actually Jefferson's. They weren't working class. They were
moving on up to the top of that great apartment
in the sky.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
They were you know, he had a good job. I
didn't know that. Yeah, well, so wait, was that the
spin off of Archie Bunker. It might have been. It
might have been okay, oh no, no, Sanford and Son, Well
what about that one?

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
Yeah, that's working Obviously there was a Junkyard, right, yeah,
but class wasn't that much a part of that show
if I remember, right, Yeah, so you're getting a lot
Lever and Shirley Good Laver and Shirley Rest in Peace,
Penny Marshall, Okay, Chico and the Man, Good Times, Good Times,
Alice she worked at a diner, taxi okay, and married

(01:06:47):
with children. So so those are all working class shows.
But there was something about Roseanne that was particularly.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Highlighting of the working class.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
It was a frequent theme and it was almost like
a political statement on the show.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Well, and I would say, you cannot ignore the fact
that in a lot of those other shows, the actors
and actresses looked like people on TV, whereas in Roseanne
they looked a little more normal and and like you
looked around the country, you're like, oh, yeah, it looks
like my neighbors and stuff like that. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
And other working class sitcoms have come after, Like what.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
The Simpsons, They always say, the Simpsons family guy. I mean, yeah,
there was that a beard company, and that inspired many
times over. Does she work though? No?

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Okay, they don't seem working class to me, but okay.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
Yeah, whatever working class sitcoms. I don't know. King of
the Hill, sure, yes, King of the King of Queen's.
I never saw that, Bob's Burgers. Everybody loves Raymond, No,
I don't think so Superstore, which I love. So Superstore
is about it's like a Target, you know, department store,

(01:08:05):
and it's called Cloud nine, okay, and it's all about
the workers. And there are you know, episodes where you
know their lack of money is an issue, is you know,
like this is like I can't afford that. And Atlanta
is also a working class.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
So what's the cultural importance of that of Roseanne and
its legacy?

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
What do you think, Burtle? I mean, I do think
that even at the time, there was a sense like, Okay,
this show, this show's not as polished and as TV
as other shows, and that's relatable. I remember that. So
I think that in some ways sort of a precursor
to reality TV. You know, like it wasn't reality TV.

(01:08:50):
It was scripted, but you could then see like, oh,
it's okay to see like any day people in everyday situations.

Speaker 1 (01:08:56):
Yeah, and Roseanne was a massive part of that. Like
the way she acts in the show seems so genuine,
even compared to John Goodman, I would say, it feels
so real, Like when she laughs or smiles or has
a smirk, you feel like she is genuinely feeling those feelings, right, So, yeah,

(01:09:18):
that was a big deal of it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Her laugh was part of the intro. Yeah, the intro.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Yeah, even that intro, like I think John Goodman improved.
He comes up around from behind her and kind of
puts his face in her face, and then she sort
of surprised and like pushes his face away, and I
think that, you know, that was all just kind of
interests the cuff. When this was at a time when
sitcoms were strictly by the script.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
Right, and they didn't have the big rock singer singing
the theme song, you know, yeah, everywhere you look, Dad
Dan and.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
Yeah, it was like it's a blues song. Yeah, like
you're down on your luck.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
Yeah, you know if you would.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
When I first started going into this episode prep, I
was like, yeah, you know, Rosanna's just one of those shows.
But I think that's a product of the fact that
I was a little I was in that age zone
when I wasn't really watching TV and wasn't really paying
attention to something. But when I actually look into it,
I think it had a pretty big cultural importance. I

(01:10:21):
think it's less so than what's on Rosa and Barr's
blog that describes, but I think it's I think it's
a pretty big deal. And because other shows about working
class families, you know, they had existed before, but I
don't think any of them had really made you know,
messy working class families feel heroic, Like this family was messy,

(01:10:45):
the house was messy, they dressed messy, they looked messy.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:52):
The casting of the of especially that middle child, the girl,
you know, she's a messy way of talking, her hair
is messy.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
That's what I'm saying. These people didn't look like normal TV.

Speaker 1 (01:11:04):
Stars, right, and they look like they were plucked out
of regular life. Yeah, you know, in some ways, and
it still made it heroic. It felt I mean, heroic
is kind of a funny word, but it felt like
these are good people.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
They have integrity, they have honor, and.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
And also it it sort of attacked a lot of
political issues, you know, like how hard it is to
find work, how hard it is to be a parent
and work, because you know, both the parents worked and
they're you know, in the first episode, she's called into
school and the teacher is like, you know, your kid

(01:11:45):
is slipping grades a little bit. Are you spending quality
time with him?

Speaker 2 (01:11:50):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:11:50):
And there's a beat and Roseanne's like, so we both
I don't know, she says some joke, but we both
work and we have a lot of kids, So where's
the room for that, right, you know, And and the teachers,
you know, you can she's sort of cast as this
privilege she probably doesn't even have kids kind of a thing,

(01:12:11):
and so, you know, it went after a lot of
things like that. The episodes went into how small things
can totally ruin you financially, Like in the first episode,
the oldest girl, the girl you had a crush on.
Her school bag had something wrong with it, and the
parents have a conversation about like, well, what are we
going to do about this? You know, middle class people,

(01:12:32):
they just buy another bag.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
Yeah, I remember that. I remember that that actual episode.
By the way, she I think she reminded me of
Elizabeth's shoe.

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
Interesting, Oh, the sister, that's fine. I encourage you to
look at pictures of her again and tell me that again,
because she looks kind of goofy in my eyes.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
I'm sure she does, but at the time, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I've the characters are proud.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
But humble on the show. It seems they're assertive, you know,
but loving with each other. It's kind of revolutionary to have, uh,
you know, plus size main characters, you know. I mean
they weren't just kind of plus size, Yeah they were.

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
They were Disneyland McDonald's. They it's sort of a feminist show.
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
Roseanne had a lot of power in that household without
it being like diminishing to the to the husband. It
was focused on her, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
And that that's part of what I was saying earlier,
which is that is incredible because they managed to have
such a strong female presence and not turn the guy
into the blubbering fool, right.

Speaker 1 (01:13:49):
And it came at a time which I do remember
very vividly that the eighties excesses were.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
Coming to an end.

Speaker 1 (01:13:57):
Yeah, you know it that this was It was sort
of like awakening for America of like, Okay, we've tricked
ourselves into believing that we're all rich and famous and like,
you know, Patrick Bateman and really most of us are
like this. And there was sort of a decline in
the economy and stuff, and so it sort of coincided

(01:14:20):
with that kind of thing. During the first season, she
fought with the producer. She wanted more control, and she
boycotted shows, and there were there were episodes where she
was actually just written out of the show because she
she wouldn't show.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
She's like, I'm not coming this week, you know what
I mean what?

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
Yeah, And she got into a fight with ABC, and
ABC actually gave in and actually fired the producer.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
She wanted the producer. God, she hated the producer.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
It was it was basically a fight over control over
the the you know, the show, you know, and the
producers like this is my show and I hired you
to be on my show.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
She's like, the show is called Roseanne.

Speaker 1 (01:14:58):
Yeah, and she was claiming that the show was completely
based on her her stand up routine. Right, She's like,
you stole all my stuff, you know, so this is
this is me. And ABC actually gave in. So this
is another kind of that. This could have ruined her career,
like the producer. The producer could have just thrown up

(01:15:19):
his hands and be like, well, let's just close the
whole thing down.

Speaker 2 (01:15:21):
This isn't working. But it was already making money. It
had her name. She was the star.

Speaker 1 (01:15:27):
I mean, but she rolled the dice, just like she
rolled the dice with that tweet.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
Yeah, that's true, that's true. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:15:33):
She she had the show again, it had good ratings,
and she had Donald Trump behind her, and she rolled
the dice and you know, shot herself in the foot
different time. Do you know the famous writers of Roseanne, No,
I had no idea. My god, Josh Wheaton, No was
a major what this is? I think where he got

(01:15:54):
his this is where he got his start. That's incredible,
And I think Roseanne was sort of critical and actually
giving Joss Wheaton this this gig. So without this show,
Joss Wheaton might have been like a car sales.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
The other is Amy Sherman Palladino. You know who this is,
Gilmore Girls, The Marvelous Smiths is Mabel Mazel, you know,
the one that won all the Golden Globes and blah
blah blah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):
Emmy's Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
For those who don't know Joss Wheaton, Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
He co wrote toy story, Firefight, the TV show which
is great, Serenity, the Cabin in the Woods, Avengers, age
of Ultron, Justice League, you know, forgive for Justice League,
but in many other things. How many seasons was rosentne
On for See.

Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
That's what's confusing because in my mind not that many,
because I only watched it, like for the years I
was in high school. Once I went to college, I
don't think I kept watching it. But so I'm gonna
go with seven nine.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
That's pretty good, Okay, from eighty eight to ninety seven,
which is really surprising to me because it's like it
was on all the way up until ninety seven.

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
Yeah, that is surprising.

Speaker 1 (01:17:03):
She won an Emmy and a Golden Globe for her
work there for the final two seasons. She earned forty
million dollars. Whoa, She was the second highest paid woman
in show business at the time, behind who Do you Think.

Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
Famous? Oh? Oprah? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
Yeah, she was in a movie in nineteen eight so
going back to nineteen eighty nine, so this is right
after the first season she was in a movie. Do
you know what movies? Major movies she was in during
this era.

Speaker 2 (01:17:32):
Man, I know I watched it. I'm sure I don't remember.
Though she Devil with Meryl Street. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:39):
Roger Ebert gave her a positive review, saying Barr could
have made an easy, predictable and dumb comedy at any
point in.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
The last couple of years.

Speaker 1 (01:17:48):
Instead, she took her chances with an ambitious project, a
real movie, and it pays off. In that Bar demonstrates
that there is a core of reality inside her TV persona,
a core of a a full human, identifiable human feelings
like jealousy and pride, and they provide a sound foundation
for her comic acting.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:09):
She published a book at this time, in autobiography, and
then she was in Look Who's Talking too?

Speaker 2 (01:18:15):
As So there were two kids.

Speaker 1 (01:18:17):
It was Bruce Willis and rose Anbar and John Travolta
and Christi Alli were the parents.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
I'm sure I watched both. Yeah, I definitely watched the
first one. I bet you I watched this nineteen ninety.

Speaker 1 (01:18:30):
This is when she sang the Star Spangled banner in
which you talked about before.

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):
That was nineteen ninety. Yeah, oh, I thought it was later. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:18:39):
She started to sing and people started booing, and then
at the end she kind of grabbed her crotch and
she spat on the ground.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
I mean she would, but from the very beginning she
was like, oh say, can you know like it was
super abrasive and awful. Yeah, there's a huge backlash, like
everyone hated her.

Speaker 1 (01:18:58):
Yeah, everyone President Bush, the you know, the first HW
called it disgraceful. I mean, that's pretty for George you know,
Bush Senior to comment on pop culture. It's a pretty
big deal. Later, her husband Tom Arnold said that the
crotch grab and the spitting on the ground was to

(01:19:19):
imitate baseball players.

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
Well, yeah, I assumed, so, oh you did. Yeah, okay,
I did. All the time, I thought she was saying
fuck you. Yeah, yeah, No, I thought she was doing
a baseball oh.

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):
But so later in an interview, she said that she
was singing as loudly as possible. So here's where we
get into the pattern of self destruction that she involves in.
So she makes a mistake and instead of just apologizing,
she makes excuses, and this is where that personality problem

(01:19:53):
comes into play. So I'm sure after this she had
publicists or producers or someone coming forward to her and saying,
you got to apologize for this, like just say I'm sorry,
or you know, like goat, you know, fall on your
sword something, But she doesn't, you know, She's like, look,
I was singing as loudly as possible to hear myself
over the public address system, so you know, just by accident,

(01:20:19):
my singing sounded screechy.

Speaker 2 (01:20:22):
I'm totally going to defend her on this though, because like,
first of all, who hired her to do the fucking
like it's ridiculous? Was she known as a singer? Did
anyone think that her voice was gonna be some beautiful
angelic thing?

Speaker 1 (01:20:36):
Well, okay, but which in a later interview, she did
say that she said that, you know, the Padres hired
her and suggested that she bring humor to the song,
which I find to just be a horrific idea terrible idea.

Speaker 2 (01:20:50):
But I knew someone put her up to it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:52):
But she said that in a later interview, so it's like,
why didn't she say that right away? Why didn't she
be like, look, that's what they hired me to do.
So I'm sorry trying to throw them under that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:02):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:21:02):
I doubt it. Like her first excuse was it accidentally
sounded screechy.

Speaker 2 (01:21:08):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:21:10):
Now fast forward to twenty twelve. She gives another interview
and she's and I watched this one. She's like, look,
the night before I was practicing it and I wanted
to sing it well. And you know, I practiced it
all night long, and you know, I'm not a great singer,
but I thought I was doing okay.

Speaker 2 (01:21:27):
And then when I got.

Speaker 1 (01:21:28):
The microphone and I started singing, I realized that I
was singing too high, and I realized it wasn't going well.
So I said to myself, what the hell, I'm a comic.
I'm just gonna make it funny. And I went to
I went from a beloved person to a despised and
hated person overnight.

Speaker 2 (01:21:48):
No, listen, I am so on our corner on this.
I can totally relate Number one to performing stuff started
going south, and you try to do the best you
can with it. Number Two, she's not a singer. I mean, like,
just don't ask her to do this. Number Three, people
are way too precious about freaking national anthems. So, you
know what, I'm on her corner on this, But why

(01:22:09):
grab your crotchets because baseball players pictures particularly, are stereotypically
doing that.

Speaker 1 (01:22:15):
Yeah, I'm you know, I'm sort of in the middle
on this. So originally I was just like, I don't
think I cared back then in nineteen ninety, but you know,
upon watching I'm like, yeah, I could see why sensitive
nineteen ninety America would be a little sensitive about this.
But then when I actually watched it and I heard

(01:22:35):
her explanation, I was like, yeah, that is kind of weird.
It's like, why would you hire her? You know, she
has a terrible voice, Like you've heard her talk. You know,
she didn't really make fun of the song. She just
sang it with her a regular annoying voice, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:22:53):
And by the way, at the time, I remember being
against her on this, yeah, because you know, I'm young
and I'm just going on with the flow, and it
did sound like shit.

Speaker 1 (01:23:02):
So this, but this is a narcissistic historyonic shooting yourself
in the foot, a a you know, non narcissistic, non
history onic person who was a comedian with a terrible voice,
who was known for disrespect. If asked to sing the
national anthem, would be like, no, no, I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:23:20):
Not going to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:23:21):
But because she can't help it, she she does that.
And then she was devastated by that. Yeah, you know,
it was she It was unexpected, you know, because the
thing to America in nineteen ninety. They thought she went
up there as a big f you to America, which
was probably not the case.

Speaker 2 (01:23:41):
Well, and this must have been disappointed to her also
from the perspective that she actually stood for Middle America
and for a lot of the like you said, the
working class because of her show, and so she probably
had she probably was happy that that was something that
she was respected for, you know, and that those those
groups of people loved her for that. And so then
for that same groups of people to turn her against her,

(01:24:03):
that probably was hurtful. Right. Yeah, did you know that
she was host of Saturday Ight Live three times during
this time? I guess I'm not surprised, but I did
not know that. I didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:24:15):
That's I mean, that just tells you how big of
a star she was, you know, and how respected she
was as a comedian.

Speaker 2 (01:24:21):
Totally. She released another book. She hosted the MTV Music
Video Awards.

Speaker 1 (01:24:27):
Okay again just to let you know, like, so I
missed all this stuff, but it just like, man, she
was a massive the MTV Video I mean to choose her,
you know, that's that's interesting. Nineteen ninety eight, she had
her own talk show called a Roseanne Show.

Speaker 2 (01:24:43):
Did you know about this? I do? I never watched it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:45):
It was like Johnny Carson, right, and it ran for
two years, two years, which is you know, kind of
two thousands, she started her blog, Roseanne World, which is
still there. There hasn't been much since the tweet though,
like there hasn't been any updates.

Speaker 2 (01:25:00):
But Roseanne World is where all those descriptions are that
you were saying. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:25:04):
She returned to comedy another HBO special. She started doing
a political radio show in two thousand and eight. Really
two thousand and nine she did the Adolph Hitler feature
Have you seen this?

Speaker 2 (01:25:17):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:25:18):
So, do you know there's a Jewish magazine called Hebe Magazine. Yes,
it's sort of a comedy or whatever. Yeah, and so
they will often feature a Jewish person on the cover
in a funny way. And she so they're like, you know,
come over, we'll do we'll do a photo.

Speaker 2 (01:25:36):
Shot shot for the cover. Yeah. And she's like, okay,
I'm going to dress up as Hitler. Oh boy.

Speaker 1 (01:25:42):
So she dressed up and it's a pretty good, you know,
costume and and Hitler impression. And she is in the
kitchen and she has a Swaska on her arm and
she's pulling out a rack of cookies and they're a
bunch of burnt gingerbread.

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):
Man, Oh my god, oh no, who allowed this to
go out? Right? So again, huge backlash. I mean, just
because you're of that group of people doesn't entitle you
to everything in the sense of humor.

Speaker 1 (01:26:24):
Right right, wow, so huge backlash. The view spoke out
against her, O'Reilly, So people on the right and the
left were speaking out against her for this. She defended it,
and actually the magazine defended it. The magazine said it
wasn't our idea, was hers, but they were like, look,
it's satire. You know, we're a Jewish magazine, like.

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):
What you know, I know, And but it almost like,
if you're going to defend something so extreme, I want
to know what's the satire?

Speaker 1 (01:26:55):
What is the point She was trying to make fun
of Hitler by feminizing him. I think like she's because
she's like the domestic goddess, right, so she was combining.

Speaker 2 (01:27:08):
She was making Hitler into a woman in the kitchen
who burns gingerbread. And I mean, yeah, Now, what I
will say to this is that it's clear why the
public was bothered, particularly if a lot of people didn't
know she was Jewish, and particularly if a lot of
people didn't know the magazine was a Jewish magazine. I
think if you're like, it's a Jewish magazine and she's

(01:27:32):
a jew, you know, like it, but but you know,
it doesn't quote unquote justify it, so to speak, you know,
but it is. And the other thing is is that
I would suspect that a lot of so so other
magazine covers had similar you know, satire that would be offensive.

Speaker 1 (01:27:51):
Yeah, but they weren't called out on it. I don't
think it was at the level of this one. Yeah,
but it's not like this just comes out of nowhere.
It's like they had made a string of offensive Jewish
you know, covers, So you know, I still think it
was a gaff.

Speaker 2 (01:28:07):
You know what I mean, But well, if nothing else,
it's like, well, just know that by doing this, you
are continuing your streak of unlikableness with several demographics.

Speaker 1 (01:28:19):
Right exactly, Well, and of again shooting yourself in the foot.
Another person would have said, you know, maybe just the
Hitler Like if she just did the Hitler thing, I
think that would have been fine. But pulling out people debt,
you know, burnt things out of the oven, ye like wow, Well,
that that's my question.

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):
That's my points last question about the satire piece because like, actually, okay,
I could see it. The cover has her in this
very feminized pose, but she looks like Hitler and it's
like one little finger in her mouth and she's perking
her lips. Okay, that's that's totally offensive to Hitler and
like whatever, But that would make more sense than she's

(01:29:00):
pulling burnt things out of enough.

Speaker 1 (01:29:02):
Like like what yeah, it makes it look like she
thinks it's funny.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
It's funny right that people were burnt, I get it,
but they're just ginger like it's fine. Like that's that's
why I'm like I lose the satire.

Speaker 1 (01:29:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it'd be like for me
as a Japanese person on the cover of a Japanese
American magazine, you know with uh, you know, me dropping
a bomb on top of something, you know, and there's
a bunch of gingerbread man burning.

Speaker 2 (01:29:31):
You know, it's just like, yes, I get what you're
getting at, but man, that is just not cool. You know.
You could do the same thing with like Native American uh,
you know, genocides and things like that.

Speaker 1 (01:29:42):
Or or a black person, you know, with lynching themes
or something. It's like, Okay, even though you're of that race,
that doesn't mean it's not you know, still bothers. Again,
later an interview, she doesn't apologize. She you know, this
is that personnel where it's like early in life she learned, Look,

(01:30:04):
I do not accept other people's opinions, right, you know,
my parents are both crazy, abusive people, and I wall
up when in doubt, I put a wall up and
I don't let people in.

Speaker 2 (01:30:17):
That's how I've survived. Deal or concrete.

Speaker 1 (01:30:19):
Yeah, so yeah, she talks about how, you know, she
just did that. She started a reality TV show called
Roseanne Roseanne's Nuts in which her boyfriend and her son
they ran a macadamia nut farm in Hawaii. What I've
never heard, which was quickly canceled. Okay, Then she ran

(01:30:41):
for president in twenty twelve against Obama and Mitt Romney.

Speaker 2 (01:30:46):
What what now again? I sort of, I mean, I
do sort of remember, but I did think it was
sort of not serious.

Speaker 1 (01:30:54):
People thought she was joking. But but when I looked
into this, she's clearly cerious about it. Especially when you
look at you know, she's had a political radio.

Speaker 2 (01:31:05):
Show for four years at this point. Wow. And when
you hear her talk today, she is a political person.

Speaker 1 (01:31:10):
She's highly political. At the time, she was super left leaning,
like she was. She was a liberal liberal. What out
of all the candidates, what.

Speaker 2 (01:31:21):
Order was she? And the national presidential she got voted for? Yeah,
a lot of people voted for. How many candidates total?
I don't know, that's like twenty or something. I'm not sure.
She was number fifteen.

Speaker 1 (01:31:35):
She was six whoa so Obama fifty one percent, met
Romney forty seven, Gary Johnson libertarian he always or ekes
out a little bit. He got one percent. Jill Stein
she often gets she was green point four. Virgil Good
Constitution Party point one, Roseanne bar for the Peace and
Freedom Party point zero five, which is something like I

(01:31:57):
don't know, seventy thousand votes or something. So seventy thousand
people in the United States voted her for her for president.

Speaker 2 (01:32:04):
Wow, And I think they were actually kind of serious,
you know, I don't think it was a joke thing.
She supported the Occupy Wall Street people. Then she had
another huge problem where around this time, you remember George
Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin. Yeah, it wasn't she supporting him
or something or defend him or something. She was on

(01:32:26):
Trayvon Martin's side. Oh, okay, you know this is when
she was.

Speaker 1 (01:32:29):
A liberal, Okay, and she happened then right in a
very short amount of time, like just like two or
three years, she like completely went right wing. She was
she tweeted or retweeted George Zimmerman zimmerman parents address, which
is where George Zimmerton was staying. Okay, so someone else

(01:32:52):
said tweeted it, and she retweeted it. Well, she has
a much bigger platform, and she said, she tweeted, if
Zimmerman isn't arrested, I'll retweet his address again.

Speaker 2 (01:33:01):
I remember this now yes, and.

Speaker 1 (01:33:03):
Then she said maybe go to his house myself. The
parents sued her because they're like, you know, he ruined
our lives. But the judge you know, threw it out
because she just retweeted it one and to the address
was in the phone book.

Speaker 2 (01:33:22):
But still that's pretty much of it.

Speaker 1 (01:33:24):
That's you know, you're doxing somebody totally, and of an
international scandal like that, Like, that's pretty dick move. She
lost the election, and I think she was hurt by it,
and she actually at that point took a right turn
in terms of her beliefs. She started defending Donald Trump,

(01:33:44):
you know, in the twenty sixteen.

Speaker 2 (01:33:47):
So I wonder how much of it was her turning
right or her kind of seeing a lot of herself
in Donald Trump and being like, well, he's a man
of the people too, because he's you know, raised poor.
Oh wait no, but whatever. But you know, then like,
you know, defending him totally.

Speaker 1 (01:34:04):
I hadn't thought about it till doing this, But there's
a lot of parallels between Roseanne and Donald Trumit. You know,
they're both you know, highly controversial, sometimes loved figures who
have political leanings and are considered ridiculous you know, and
tweet a lot of silly things. And anyway, twenty eighteen,

(01:34:24):
this last year, Roseanne, she gets another TV show, number
one in the ratings, reportedly a show for Middle America
during this time.

Speaker 2 (01:34:37):
It's a reboot, right, it's or not a reboot, it's
a sequel. It's a sequel.

Speaker 1 (01:34:41):
Yeah. Then we get to this tweet. Do you remember
what she tweeted? The controversial tweet last year?

Speaker 2 (01:34:47):
I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (01:34:49):
Muslim Brotherhood and Planet of the Apes had a baby,
right equals VJA standing for Valerie Jarrett, right, right, right,
Muslim Brotherhood and Planet of the Ape had a baby
equals Valerie Jarrett.

Speaker 2 (01:35:04):
Wow? Do you know who Valerie Jarrett was? Is? I forget?

Speaker 1 (01:35:07):
She was senior advisor to Barack Obama when he was president.
And so after this.

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):
Tweet there's an instant, humongous backlash. I mean, yeah, she
must have been white. No, she's black. Oh wait, so
the tweet related to her race in.

Speaker 1 (01:35:23):
Some way, she's half black like Obama.

Speaker 2 (01:35:26):
Roseanne claimed that that was not what she meant.

Speaker 1 (01:35:29):
Right, which, you know, you know, well, let's get into that.
So she claims that Valerie Jarrett her skin tone is
such that she did not know she was black, right,
what do you think about that?

Speaker 2 (01:35:46):
Sure? So then what did the Planet of the Apes
comment refer to exactly? You know, you know it makes
no sense that I mean, explain it, like just tell us, right,
like fine? Right.

Speaker 1 (01:35:59):
She's repeatedly, repeatedly said, this is a political tweet. I
was upset at her about you know, the Iran deal
that she authored.

Speaker 2 (01:36:10):
So first of all, she she basically said, look, I
am upset at this person. So I'm gonna name two
things about her that I dislike. One that I think
she's a Muslim.

Speaker 1 (01:36:21):
Well, that she's a Muslim terrorist, essentially a supporter of
Muslim superiority.

Speaker 2 (01:36:27):
And two she reminds me of the Planet of the Apes, right, yeah,
oh okay, maybe it's because it's authoritarian or well. So
what she would say, what she would say, and what
her supporters will say, is that if you look at
one of the original Planet of the Apes characters, you know,

(01:36:48):
back in the seventies with Charlton Heston.

Speaker 1 (01:36:51):
One of the Apes, the haircut and the look of
the face kind of looks like Valerie Jarrett, right, which
I have to say isn't a compelling argument, but it's possible,
like one of the apes that she that it's pot
like there is there is a shred of possibility. I

(01:37:12):
could imagine where she actually did not think Valerie Jarrett
was black, because when you look at certain pictures of her,
it's hard to tell other pictures it's like, oh, she's
she's clearly black.

Speaker 2 (01:37:24):
Sure now, but I mean, okay, so so pause, pause,
Then let's talk about the lack of awareness of what
that tweet could have been interpreted.

Speaker 1 (01:37:38):
Totally, totally and you know it now, one could argue
that Trump and many other people have tweeted, you know,
worse things.

Speaker 2 (01:37:50):
Absolutely, so if you want to group yourself with them,
go ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:37:54):
And so her, you know, this tweet became human like
it must have been a slow newsweek or something, you know,
and and it was, you know, a huge and not
only was it a you know, a media nightmare for her,
which she in interviews I can tell she genuinely regrets.

Speaker 2 (01:38:16):
Well because it caused her inconvenience.

Speaker 1 (01:38:18):
Well yeah, and and then immediately her show was canceled.

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):
But but I mean she regrets that it became a
nightmare for her. Well, so, you know, is she regret
how it made the other gual for.

Speaker 1 (01:38:31):
Well right, So she never really apologizes, she never really
takes responsibility, she never really provides a compelling answer, which
I find to be problematic and immature and shooting yourself
in the foot. But at the same time, there's this
interview at that they advice to an interview with her

(01:38:51):
in her home, and she seems very relaxed there, and
she seems genuinely upset about it, you know, and and
genuinely like upset that it, you know, it hurt that
it made people.

Speaker 2 (01:39:06):
She's not.

Speaker 1 (01:39:07):
So this is when you have a personality problem. It
impairs your empathy. So it's not like you don't have empathy.
It just means that you're over concerned with other other needs.
And she has a tremendous need to be loved by society,
you know. Again going back to her childhood's she feels worthless,

(01:39:27):
she's scared. There's a lot that she's being abused. Then
she gets on the Mormon stage and she becomes this glorious,
you know, human being and becomes loved and liked and supported,
and she gets all this self esteem. She goes home,
she feels abused. So her only avenue that she feels
that she can feel safe and secure is to be
constantly looked at and liked on some level, or at least,

(01:39:49):
you know, lookable. And then, in this instance, just overnight,
she does something to get attention and gets a lot
of hatred, and then her show gets pulled, she gets
essentially pulled off the stage, and no one wants to
look at her anymore, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:40:10):
And so it's.

Speaker 1 (01:40:13):
That I think she's genuinely upset about You could call
that a selfish way of approaching things, but I think
given her abuse in life, I think that might be
all she's capable of.

Speaker 2 (01:40:24):
Sure, So it's just that that same feeling could be
true whether she meant the tweet or not, whether she
meant it in the racist way or not. What do
you mean, like she could still feel horrible about it
even if she meant it to be racist. I don't, don't.
I don't see what you're getting at. So I'm saying, like,
I don't. I'm not surprised that she feels horrible about it.

(01:40:47):
She lost her show, everyone was upset, Yeah, but that
proves nothing about either the intent, and it certainly does
not mean she tried to make it better, you know.
So unlike how I defended her about the base ball thing.
You know here, it's like, look whether you if you
didn't mean it that way, then you're stupid. If you

(01:41:07):
did mean it that way, you just serve the hatred
you got. Now. I do think in general we have
a problem with consequences. We've talked about this in other episodes,
like in the in the one about eighth grade. Actually
that I feel that now we're in a societal point
where consequences are sort of unmeasured. So people do something
and all of a sudden the Internet rages, and then the

(01:41:29):
consequences can be either dire or none at all, sort
of randomly for.

Speaker 1 (01:41:34):
People, right, because there are other people like Mel Gibson
or Alec Baldwin or Michael Richards. So Michael Richards his
career basically you know, fine, no it was.

Speaker 2 (01:41:48):
It took out an abrupt end. But isn't he back
like he's okay now, right, I mean, he's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:41:53):
But you know he was on Seinfeld and then he
was doing standards.

Speaker 2 (01:41:58):
No, I know it, right, it did really him.

Speaker 1 (01:42:00):
So he so he was like Roseanne and that he
was very much, from my perspective, negatively impacted and now
when people think of Michael Richards, they think of that
racist rant, whereas Alec Baldwin and it has been completely
off the hook. He has said, he's said some horrific

(01:42:23):
things to people and to his own daughter. You know,
mel Gibson is sort of in the middle, like he's
he's he's done some horrible things and been punished, but
he's also still able to able to make.

Speaker 2 (01:42:36):
So I mean, so my point with that is that
like I do like I do fear that, like, you know,
the internet judge jury executioner method seems like a bad
idea in general. But I'm just saying, like I don't
feel so bad in this case that she got into trouble.

(01:42:56):
I don't know if it was right to cancel her
show because there's so many people involved in his show
that it's like, wow, someone tweets something and then everyone
has to pay the consequence. That seems ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (01:43:06):
Well that the parent company of ABC is Disney, Yeah,
and uh the.

Speaker 2 (01:43:15):
President is African American.

Speaker 1 (01:43:17):
Yeah, so yeah, no, I get it.

Speaker 2 (01:43:20):
And you know, Disney is a company that runs away from.

Speaker 1 (01:43:22):
Or sorry, the president of ABC is African American.

Speaker 2 (01:43:27):
But in general, big companies run away from scandal fairly easily,
which is understandable. I'm just saying, like, just kind of
in general, when shows get canceled as a punishment for
one person on the show, I often feel conflicted about
it because I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:43:43):
Well, the Connors are back, you know, the TV shows back, right,
and so most people have a job.

Speaker 2 (01:43:49):
Yeah, right, so that's a good outcome, you know. I'm
not saying like, don't fire or don't do anything. I'm
just like, anyways, that's a side note. What I what
I was trying to get at is that whether she
meant it the worst way possible or not, it was
still a very reckless comment to make on social media
if you're paying any attention to what happens these days

(01:44:10):
on social media. And so for her to be like
feeling like terrible about it, I'm like, well, of course
you feel terrible because like bad stuff happened to you.

Speaker 1 (01:44:19):
But what about the next day if no bad thing
had happened, would would you feel terrible?

Speaker 2 (01:44:24):
Probably not. Yeah. Do you think she's racist? I don't know.
I think since where she grew up in this country,
I'd be surprised if there wasn't some of that built
into her because, like I mean, you know, she grew
up in a mostly white community in a church that

(01:44:45):
the Mormon Church that is historically was extremely racist.

Speaker 1 (01:44:51):
I mean they, I think they they literally believed that
Native Americans were like a doomed race.

Speaker 2 (01:44:58):
Or something, and and black people, dark skin just dark
skinned people were the descendants of I guess Kane or whatever.
Like it was just like the bad the bad side
of the of the fence. And only until like the
seventies they started changing that or something. But whatever the
case may be, I wouldn't be surprised if just like
from where she grew up, she has some latent, you know,

(01:45:22):
feelings there. But it's not like she's built a career
on racism, you know. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:45:28):
In fact, Roseanne the TV show had a lot of
progressive race kind of themes. So I've reviewed as much
as I can, like every interview, in every statement she's
made since the tweet, and what I can tell you,
I'll just summarize it is that she said several different

(01:45:48):
things that don't align with each other. She has many
she said many excuses. You know, I didn't think she
was black, and I was on ambient and and by
the way, so a little bit about Ambient is you know,
she said I was an ambient, and then some people
are like, oh, well, maybe that's why. And then Ambient
actually tweeted or something saying that a side effect of

(01:46:10):
Ambient isn't being a racist or something, yes, And then
it's like, oh, okay, yeah, that makes sense. You know,
lots of people take Ambient. That doesn't make them racist.
But I will tell you that I know clinically and
personally from observing people, because I know someone who took
Ambient a lot, and it absolutely screws you up, particularly women,

(01:46:32):
because I don't know if what her dosage was, but
they they primarily test pharmaceuticals on men. Yeah, and just
because they don't want to treat women because what if
they're pregnant or something, So they tend to and so
it turns out and for a lot of pharmaceuticals it
doesn't really matter because the dosage is the same. But Ambient,

(01:46:55):
for whatever reason, is that you only need half the
dosage for women, and so a lot of dosages were
being prescribed to women that were twice the amount they
needed plus even the regular dose of ambion. It is
a highly psychoactive substance. It's not like melatonin where you
get or like when you take a suit if or whatever,

(01:47:18):
nik will and you get a little drowsy. Ambient it
something will click in you when it really kicks in
and you become a different person and you can actually
there are accounts of people getting in their cars and
driving around town, or making a cake, eating the cake,
going to bed, waking up, going into the kitchen, going

(01:47:41):
who destroyed my kitchen? They have no memory of doing
it there, so you know, could ambient have effector she
also said she drank a couple of beers before going
to bed.

Speaker 2 (01:47:52):
Yeah, so what happens in all those cases is the
very next morning, in the moment of sobriety, the person goes,
oh my god, I got to delete this and start
apologizing up left and right, because I'm aware that it's
a terrible tweet because I only did it because I
was crazed on ambient or whatever. You don't double down

(01:48:12):
and say, exactly, you know what, I didn't mean anything,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:48:17):
So that's what I'm saying is like when you have
a personality issue, So you know, when you're a child
and you're being accused of things blah blah blah. You
learn to just reflexively deflect and because that's what keep
you safe. And so she exhibits this so well, like
you know, I won't I won't bore you with all

(01:48:39):
the notes I have on this. But like, for example,
she was on Hannity and it's like one of the
few Hannity episodes I can actually watch because Hannity actually
is chastising her for the tweet for the most part,
and at one point he asks her, because she's not
really coming forward with any kind of apologies. He's like, well,

(01:48:59):
you know, if Val Jarrett we're watching this, what would
you like to say to her?

Speaker 2 (01:49:03):
And you know, she's like.

Speaker 1 (01:49:04):
Well, I'd like to say, like, let's have a conversation.
You know, let's use this as a teachable moment. You know,
America needs to wake up, you know, because you know,
she just kind of goes on this little rant and
he's and then a little later she's like, well, you know,
I want to get you back to you know, if
what would you like to say to her? You know,
is there something you'd like to say to her? She's like, well,
you know, this is a teachable moment. You know, she
just goes on this rant and then finally, like you know,

(01:49:27):
fifteen twenty minutes and Hannity's.

Speaker 2 (01:49:28):
Like, would you like to apologize to her? You know,
and and he's and she's.

Speaker 1 (01:49:34):
Like, yeah, I've already apologized to her. And then and
he's like well, and then they kind of veer off,
and then eventually he's like, look, if I were in
your shoes, I would want to look into the camera,
right because this was her first interview after the tweet,
I would want to look into the camera.

Speaker 2 (01:49:50):
He's like, spoon feeding her. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:49:52):
Here, I would like to look into the camera, and
I would like to say I am so sorry, yeah
for what I did and I was wrong and I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:50:00):
I would that's what I would say.

Speaker 1 (01:50:02):
Up go And then and then she says, oh, okay,
okay fine, and then you know, she looks into the
camera and she says, I'm so sorry you thought I
was racist?

Speaker 2 (01:50:14):
Oh so close, so close.

Speaker 1 (01:50:17):
And then she kind of talks about a couple of
other things, and then she says, the woman needs a
new haircut.

Speaker 2 (01:50:22):
Seriously, she needs she needs a new haircut. Wow with
you know, so again this exhibits a person a personality problem.
This is a person who shoots themselves in the foot.
It would be so even if you didn't believe it,
there is a proper response. You're on Hannity, you know,

(01:50:44):
who is probably the last person I would think to
be on the side of Valerie Jarrett. And he's like
even I would say, I am so sorry, and you know,
tease it up for her.

Speaker 1 (01:50:57):
She's like, and she looked kind of pissed off. She's
looking at the camera. It's like, I'm so sorry you
thought I was a racist, you know, And it's just like,
wow again that it's that, you know, neurological barrier to
protecting the self against intrusion and of narcissism of me, me, me,

(01:51:19):
me me, And you know, that's a good example of that.
So there's a lot of other things we go into,
but kind of ran out of time. So what's the
final word about Roseanne Barr and her psychology.

Speaker 2 (01:51:35):
I have some fond memories of the show, and I
respected that she was I am not to the degree
it says on her website, but I do respect that
she was in an innovation and she pushed some boundaries
and I used to really enjoy it. I also, like
I said, I don't think she I don't think she

(01:51:55):
deserves so much hatred about the national anthem thing. But overall,
I feel bad because whether she whether she is this
much on ambient or that much on ambient, it sounds
like she has had a rough time mentally here and there,
and and so I kind of wish that she found
more of a balance and she didn't have to shoot

(01:52:17):
herself in the foot so much.

Speaker 1 (01:52:19):
Yeah, I wish she had And I don't know if
she does. I wish she had a clinician or a
couple of clinicians who could kind of help her stabilize herself,
and you know that she could go to them and
be like, I'm I'm kind of getting worked up about
this Valerie Jarrett thing. Okay, well, let's talk about it
before you have to express yourself in a self destructive way.

(01:52:43):
You know, like what what what are some things you
could do that would be you know, more in line
with your overall goals. You know, what do you want
to get out of this? You know, do you want
to tweet random things? Or do you want to maybe
make a change in the world.

Speaker 2 (01:52:56):
You know, there's a way. Let's think about this.

Speaker 1 (01:52:59):
You know, I wish that she could have that that,
you know, because I think that would have helped her
after after watching you know, I'm glad that so a
lot of people ask me to do this, and I'm
glad that I did, because once again, I have much
more sympathy for her and compassion for her situation. I
see her really as a tragic character. I don't necessarily

(01:53:22):
disagree with, you know, the backlash and the consequences she's incurred,
but I do feel bad for her, and I think
that she deserves something, Like if she wants to be
on stage, I feel like she deserves something. What I wish, though,
was that she wasn't so attracted to oddball conspiracy ideas.

(01:53:47):
You know, like she's on Joe Rogan and you know,
she had sort of come full circle on this and
this is just recent and she's, you know, she's talking
about the Connors the TV show, and instead of being
magnanimous and like she was sort of apathetic before, she's like,
I don't know, they're gonna make an other TV show,
but she's like totally criticizing it and saying like it's

(01:54:10):
gonna be crap without her, and yeah, you know, which
actually might be true, and it's like, why would you
say such a thing. I mean, weren't they your friends supposedly?

Speaker 2 (01:54:17):
Why burn all houses down?

Speaker 1 (01:54:19):
Yeah, Like that's there's no purpose in that other than
to make you look bad.

Speaker 2 (01:54:25):
She says she.

Speaker 1 (01:54:25):
Wants to her next chapter in life is to make
is to teach women how to raise their sons, because
she says she raised her sons really well, and she
thinks that she basically said all women in America do
not know how to raise their sons.

Speaker 2 (01:54:39):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:54:40):
Yeah, so that's a narcissist statement, right, And Joe Rogan
is just showering her.

Speaker 2 (01:54:45):
I don't know. I don't listen to a lot of
Joe Rogan.

Speaker 1 (01:54:48):
Is he frequently very you know, supportive of his guests,
because there's sometimes when I'm like, Joe.

Speaker 2 (01:54:55):
Challenges guests a lot, but he also, you know, so
positive things about them.

Speaker 1 (01:55:01):
But the portion I listened to it was just like
just all showering her, you know. And she says, you
know about the tweet, she says, I never said she
looked like anything, and it's proof that everyone is under
mass mind control. Oh boy, still not apologetic. She you know,

(01:55:22):
she talks about, you know, social justice warriors, they always
have to have a target, and I'm not going to
bow down to them. So she's she's working this tweet
Planet of the Apes into a complete like farce from
social justice warriors because they're ridiculous, even though Hannity and

(01:55:42):
all the rights were against her as well. You know,
it's just like so it's that kind of self destruction
that I just wish she didn't have because I don't
think moving forward there are good things for her given
her attitudes.

Speaker 2 (01:55:58):
It just makes me sad for her. She's not getting
any younger.

Speaker 1 (01:56:02):
Yeah, well that does it for that episode of psychology
in Seattle.

Speaker 2 (01:56:06):
Thanks for joining me out there.

Speaker 1 (01:56:07):
Please take care of yourself because you deserve it.

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