Violent Fantasies and Parenting

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rebecca, I have some interesting emails. As usual, I always
save the most difficult emails for you.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
I take that as a compliment.

Speaker 1 (00:09):
I hope so, I hope so so Anonymous listeners, she says,
I'm writing to ask for your thoughts on a situation
involving my former psychiatrist. When I was seventeen, I was
hospitalized for eight months and treated for anorexia under his care.
During that time, I experienced frequent punishments and felt emotionally unsafe.

(00:30):
So just chiming in. She doesn't go into detail about
what that means, but I think it sounds like he
was either in charge or it was from him, so
punishments and felt emotionally unsafe. Now we don't know what
actually happened, but that's the way it felt her. I
never had romantic feelings toward him, mostly resentment and anger,

(00:50):
but I developed recurring fantasies about him having violent sex
with me. These fantasies are disturbing and confusing. I often
don't enjoy them.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Is this a sex therapy question, Well, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
A sex question, okay. I often don't enjoy these fantasies,
or I only enjoy parts of the fantasies, and they
seem more about surrender and escape than sexual desire, surrender
and escape than sexual desire. Rebecca, what do you think
of this so far?

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, it's this is common so we've had we've talked
about this before that whatever happens within your own mind
is okay. What's interesting about this is that you know
these aren't quite fantasies. There's like there's something else going
on here.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
How do you define fantasy?

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Well, hush, I don't want to. Can you say? Usually
in rape fantasies there's a lot of control by the
fantasizer about exactly who will rape them, where they will
be raped, how long it will take, how pleasure bowl it.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Will be, Yeah, meaning that it's enjoy So she's saying
that I often don't enjoy them, yeah, or if she
does enjoy them, she really enjoys parts of the fantasies,
but there are parts that she doesn't enjoy, so.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
It's not right. There's some kind of reoccurring PTSD split
thing happening where it's like half sexual fantasy, half her
brain is working out this is my opinion conceptualization, Yes,
half working out how he abused her and we don't

(02:29):
know how he abused her.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
We would assume that it would be a sexual punishment,
if we would assume, she would mention that, but the
vibe was authority, masculinity, punishment.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
You're somewhere for eight months, so now no one gets
treated for eight months. So that's interesting information too, that
she was there for so long.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
And maybe it helped, maybe even fatherly or something, you know,
a mixture. If it's eight months, that's a lot of
time with someone.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, and I'm wondering too. You know, often in eating
disorder there's like wag ins and you know, you gain
privileges and.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Lots of body talk.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yes, and also like you know, you're followed into the
bathroom and do you purge even though you know there's
all it's very intense. I say this probably every time
eating disorders come up, that in my graduate program we
were not allowed to do eating disorder work in our
internships because it was considered too complicated and difficult. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
I would agree, unless the supervisor has expertise and plans
on handholding not only the therapists but the team that
usually needs to be involved. Yes, yeah, okay, Yeah, I
would say that the only thing I'd add to that
is that, yeah, fantasies are fantasies. Thoughts are thoughts. There's

(03:56):
nothing shameful about it. If it gives you pleasure, it
gives you pleasure. If it's disturbing, then obviously looking into
that what's going on there? Things can become intertwined, right
like your sexual desire with your trauma, These things can
become intertwined and can become confusing. The one thing I'll

(04:20):
say is that I would if I had a client
like this, I would want to drill down on this
enjoyment versus lack of enjoyment, because there's a chance that
I don't hear this, but there's a possibility at least
a part, if not wholly, that the lack of enjoyment
has to do with the shame of it rather than
the experience of the fantasy, You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (04:43):
Right? And other is this to get very freudy in here?
Is this a sign that this trauma needs to be
processed through in different ways that often in our culture
sexual You know, addressing something sexually is kind of the
easiest way, not easiest, but it's like kind of an

(05:05):
acceptable way to look at something. Doing deep grief and
Loss work about how an institutionalized time impacted your life.
And I think Peri Selton just did a documentary about
this where she was hospitalized in the way that was

(05:25):
I think it was like a boarding school that was
really punishment based. That.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, I did a reaction video series to this documentary
that came out four or five years ago.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
But the the I don't know a single person that
was institutionalized for a long period of time that doesn't
have a complex thoughts about that time. Yeah, you know,
you're separated from your family and friends, You're often you
don't have access to technology or your you know, your

(05:55):
phone calls are limited. All of these things are extremely restricted,
all in the sense of like we're here to make
you better, right, And it's a pretty intense experience.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yeah, And it's not usually seen that way, right, because
it's like you're being hospitalized. It it's universally positive you're
getting treatment, But even if it was medical treatment, there
could be trauma. Usually just the feeling of having all
those things sticking in and out of you and lacking
control and just being in an environment where people are

(06:28):
suffering and dying. It's you know, it's just it's hard,
so trauma or recovery or processing is likely necessary for everyone.
How many of these people are actually giving that attention
very few that kind of thing. The other thing I'll
say is that when it comes to sexual fantasies, we
don't have control over the script writer. And that's the

(06:50):
script writer doctor something deep, the collective and conscious something,
and that script writer will grab will cast anyone in
your fantasies or your dreams or your associations, and it
might not have anything really to do with that individual.
So the script writer will cast who they want. And

(07:11):
if they're looking for an archetype of someone empower, someone
who cares, slash doesn't care, and wants to work something
out in your unconscious while getting sexual pleasure. I mean
you might have even got some sexual charge. You know,
you're seventeen at the time. There's a lot of body

(07:34):
talk and you know, I'm just going to take a
guess and say, if you were hospitalized for eight months
for treatment for anorexia, you were traumatized growing up in all.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Likelihood, right, the need for power and control and secrets,
these are all things that come up in needing disorder treatment.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
And the script writer is writing a screenplay, not of
a story in which you are in an environment. But
every aspect of the dream is you. Yes, So you
are yourself in the dream. You are the doctor in
the dream. You are the environment in the dream. And
so that element of the abusive or violent sexual predator

(08:18):
that is you. Now you want a sexual predator. But
the aspect of power, the aspect of predating, the aspect
of not caring about other people, whatever it is, whatever association,
there's a representation that is happening there in addition to
working out past things.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
Anyway, Yeah, and can you find a caring self to
Does this replicate any relationships that you've had and are
you having trouble finding a caring partner in the outside world?
You know, like, are you playing something out? I am
really so being becoming a sex therapist is really interesting
because people are like, oh, you're talking about sex all

(08:58):
the time, and it's like, not really, I'm talking about
the sex that people don't want to be having or
the sex that people wish they were having. If this
were my client, if a client came to me with
this scenario, I would want to process into the trauma
of the hospitalization. I would want to process into what

(09:20):
is a pleasurable sexual fantasy that doesn't include these feelings
of like repulsion desire, which is also so common in
eating disorders, right, like the repulsion of the.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
Self and the punishment of the self.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yes, yeah, oh we are so Freudian today.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Well it fits. The reason why I say the script
writer is just casting who they feel like it and
it might not really have much to do with the
actual individual, is that there will be people that will think, oh,
I must want to have sex with that individual in
the real real world. Yeah. If you just look at

(09:58):
other dreams, you don't usually say that about you know, like,
if you're like you, you just sat down and said
you had a dream about being a school counselor you
were being hired to be a school counselor by where
your high school was, presumably where Tucker Carlson went to
high school with you and San Diego. That is correct,
And and it's.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
Like, why did my brain pick this? It's so random?

Speaker 1 (10:20):
Right, So you don't wake up and say, oh shit,
does that mean I should be a school counts. No,
you know that your brain is just picking some symbol
or is just trying to put you in a situation
where you feel like a fish out of water or
a new start or whatever it is. And so your
brain when it grabs onto the psychiatrist. And I say
all this because some people will tell me, you know,

(10:42):
after years of therapy, that they have a recurring dream
about having sex with their dad and they're terribly ashamed
of it. And it has nothing, you know, after some investigation,
it has nothing to do with sexual abuse or any
sort of Yeah, it's there, but your scriptwriter will grab
anybody and doesn't care how you feel about it.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
So my dreams have been particularly insane lately. And I
had you know, have you seen the VW Bus remodels
that are out and about. Yeah, so I had this
dream that I was I was driving. Eve was in
the back, and I was in one of those cars
and they're super round in the front, and in my
dream something was happening with the car, and the whole

(11:24):
car tipped onto the front and was like standing front
and up and we were able to like tip it back.
And every time I see that car now, I'm like, oh,
I guess I can see that. But that was just
my brain making crap up.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, right, so don't consider it some sort of inner,
unconscious desire to have sex with that psychiatrist as a thing.
It might, but it might not. You can be your
own evaluator of that. When you're awake.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
And we're are there are other sexual desires at seventeen
that we're getting repressed, you know, Like I'm curious what
the tie in there is.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, I mean that's what I was saying. Like, you're seventeen.
Most people are pretty horny at that point, and you're
eight months in a.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Hospitalized seeing limited people.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
Right, they might be one of the only available men
for your crotch to associate sex with. But going on
with the email, Oh there's more, Oh yeah, well just wait.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
Oh boy, okay, buffling in. Yeah, I'm going to tip
forward in that VW bus. That's going to be mynu metaphor.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, any guesses by the way, Oh god?

Speaker 2 (12:36):
They hook up later?

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Well, okay, okay, fourteen years later, damn it so good.
I contacted him online to try to make sense of
these fantasies. Since then, he has encouraged me to pursue
a sexual relationship with him virtually and has been pressuring
me to meet him in person for sex. I feel
scared of him. Yeah, but I also feel compelled to

(12:58):
try and please him.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
Oh Lord, I'm sorry, not Lord for you, just Lord
for him for asking. So what do you think, Uh well, no,
wonder her brain was doing this. He was probably sending
out these He was probably grooming her fourteen years ago
or seventeen years ago, every long ago it was.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, it could be. I mean, it certainly wouldn't be
a surprise, but it also could just be coincidence, you know.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yeah, So don't do it this person. Why, because the
power dynamics are so messed up. You're not going to
heal anything or solve anything. The fact that he's asking
you is all about his narcissistic egos slash unprofessional. I

(13:46):
want to know who this guy is so I can
go punch him, just out of my own level of
frustration at the world right now. Yeah, super messed up.
I didn't want to be right in my guess, but
I was sure.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yeah. So for you, an anonymous listener, to reach out
to him is fine. You're confused, You're still struggling to
some extent, and that is fine. If someone reached out
to me and asked me a question like this, there's
various different responses. But I've had not this exact experience,

(14:22):
but I've had experiences. Have you ever experienced this, like
ten plus years later, someone contacts you with something that
is kind of juicy like this, not like that, they
will have fantasies about you necessarily.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
But I've had people come back. I just had this happen.
Somebody came back in for a few sessions, but not like, no,
not like this.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
There's nothing wrong with you anonymous listener reaching out, just
being like, I have these fantasies and what's going on
the way he should have responded would have been, I'm sorry,
I can't talk with you about that unless we re
engage professionally, and you know, if you want to do that,
let me know, or if you are talking with a
therapist right now, confer with that person, or I could
meet with you and that therapist virtually and we could

(15:04):
talk about it, or so keep it professional. There's nothing
wrong with you doing that. There could have been some
actual growth or therapy or clarification that could have happened
from that. But but from his side, it's like, my
fucking god, yes, of course, Rebecca, he deserves a massive
fucking punch in the face.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
We could put the face together.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
Well, not at the same time, because I feel like
it won't be.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
A satisfying two punch.

Speaker 1 (15:29):
How about you loosen them up?

Speaker 2 (15:31):
And I thought, you come in for the well, I'd
go for the nuts.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
How I thought, Oh, okay, I I feel like as
a lesbian going for the nuts, that's too cliche. Oh
so go for the face.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
For the face, and for the nuts. I could go
for the throat.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, uh so, yeah, he is a problem,
and agree that.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
He's doing this to you because this happened to me
recently online. I got super harassed and I was like,
do I speak up? And then I was like, right,
I should speak up because this person is doing this
to other people and not everybody's gonna speak up. And
it's good to speak up because what happened. Oh no,

(16:20):
someone wrote me very like am I not in the mic? Yeah?
Someone wrote me very much like, hey, so nice to
connect blah blah blah blah blah. And I've been so
busy lately with things that I've told you about that
I've just like stuff's like flyn I'm like, miss, I
can't respond. I need a secretary so bad, right, now

(16:40):
like just to respond to the little stuff. I couldn't
get to it. I couldn't write back. And the next
thing they wrote me was just like they just like
took it.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Wait, this is a client or a friend, this is.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Neither, This is somebody reaching out. This is a human
in space.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
Okay, neither friend nor client, right, okay.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Just human. I didn't respond. They just like went off.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
And was there an expectation or was there a reasonable
expectation that you would respond?

Speaker 2 (17:08):
I didn't, you know, in the way that like I
can't respond to everything everyone that reaches out to me.
I just can't.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
Respond, yea, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
And it was on a supported platform and I just
wrote the administrator on that platform and I was like, hey,
if this person is doing this to me, I'm going
to guess they're doing this to other people.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
I screenshoted it, sent it to my friends. Just FYI
this and.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
Why were you bringing that up? What was that was
the connection? Uh? I don't know people that can't think straight.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
People that Yeah, I'm not sure what I'm telling this
story today.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
Well I interrupted you and asked you to tell me
the story.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
But but oh, why should she speak up that this
guy has encouraging her to have a virtual sexual relationship.
If he's still employed somewhere or attached to something, consider
speaking up and saying something, because if he's doing this
to you, chances are very high he's doing this to

(18:06):
other people. Release the Epstein files.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
Yeah. So the other detail here is that you say
that you're scared of him, but you feel compelled to
please him. You know, there's nothing in there that says
I'm actually attracted to him or I want to get
some gratification from this. All you're saying is I'm scared
of him, and I feel compelled to try to please him. So,

(18:31):
you know, I say that because if she did have
some legitimate, non scared attraction to him, I still would
say don't do it because it's going to be traumatic.
But it's a But it's such a slam duck indicator
of trauma that's happening.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
Her unconscious in the dreams or in the fantasies, is
already working out what will happen in the reality. It's
like there's a predicting factor.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
I don't know if people can hear my neighbors.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
Dogs, is that your neighbors dogs?

Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, they sound like they're dying, don't they.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
This happens periodically, and it drives me nuts because when
my dogs bark in our yard, we immediately take care
of it. Did they take care of it?

Speaker 2 (19:11):
They were doing that. When I came in, I thought
it was your dogs, and then I realized.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Oh, was it. Yeah, there's some new dogs in our neighborhood.
There's a dog further down that will bark at three
am in the morning for an hour, and I'm thinking,
how can you live with yourself? Yes, leaving your dog
out one two, just barking.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Without any I do believe that society is collapsing and
things like this. It really is fun. It's not just
the level of trash on Near Avenue South right now,
it's also barking dogs that are a proof there's trash
on rail Oh lord, so there you know the McDonald's
unlike Rainier, Yeah, that has become like on drug using escapade,

(19:58):
going into the parking lot to the green space up above,
and the amount of trash every single day. I have
become that person.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
It's a fire hazard, yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
It's a bio hazard.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, it's it's really out of control.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, I mean it's sad that you have traumat traumatized
people that are seeking some temporary solace through heroin and fentanyl.
But and if you're a patron, then part of your
pledge goes towards Plymouth Housing, which is one of the
premiere sort of helpers of situations like that.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
I'm glad I'm helping because when I drive by every day,
I'm just like, it's you know, when you're like, this
is society's problem, this is everybody's problem. But oh my god,
this is so bad.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, can I ask you a question about the barking?
So it gets It gets so bad sometimes that I
open the window and I just.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yell at the door.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
I briefly will say quiet, I just yell quiet. Does
it work well, I don't know, but at the very
least it might give a message to the owners of
tell your dog, you know, just bring him inside. That's
what we do when when my dogs start barking, I
just I just say, hey, come on, come on side,
and they come inside and everything's fine, and it's not

(21:19):
a big deal. You know. It's just like if they're barking,
they're barking inside. They're not bothering the neighbors. They usually
will calm down in thirty seconds and I can let
them back out again. It's not a big deal, you
know what I mean. And so, but Stacy will go like, oh,
don't don't do that. You know she's not upset. But

(21:39):
it's sort of.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, how much style, right? Right? How do you interact
with situations that are and you know it's unnighborly to
let your dog bark and bark and bark and bark.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, well, the thing is, and this is such a
I don't know, this is such a guy thing to say.
I think of my age, but I'm like, so a
dog can just green for an hour, but I can't
just say quiet once, you know what I mean? Like
what like we're all animals making noises, and somehow me
saying quiet is this massive neighborly violation where you can

(22:16):
just have your dogs show.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
I mean, if you like, yell, shut the you know,
get your dogs to shut the fuck up. Like that
would be a little intense. But that's not what you're doing.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
No, because if the parents hear me say that, or
the owners and that bothers the things, Like.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
You're putting an intention, a gentle intention.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
It's sort of like a honk. You know. It's like
I can hear, like when you're on the road and
someone is about to get into your lane and they
don't see you in the in the blind spot you're
honking of just like, hey, I'm here. You could say, oh,
the honk is really aggressive. Satellites are notorious for that, like,
oh my god, someone honked. You know you're in Manhattan.

(22:55):
It's just like people, it seems like to not honk
is to be in polite sometimes in Manhattan and certain
parts of Manhattan. Anyway, getting back to the question, so, yes,
what her question is to do it?

Speaker 2 (23:08):
Oh my god?

Speaker 1 (23:09):
So she has some specific questions. Could this be explained
meaning her reaching out to him or the and the fantasies.
Could this be explained by transference even though the feelings
aren't romantic, Rebecca.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
Sure, but you'd have she replaying something out.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
Could she just be processing trauma?

Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, I mean typically when we say transference, we're.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Kind of staring at each other blankly, like I wouldn't
use the word transference and I use the word enactment.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, yes, good job, because with transference you could argue
it is But of.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Course, as people in the therapy world. We could argue
just about anything.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, but typically what we're talking about with transference's early
childhood experiences with one's caregivers, one's parents. And if that
makes sense, you know, if you were sexually abused by
your dad or something, or he was physically abusive but
also warm at times, then the transference of well, I
guess it depends on the intention you had reaching out

(24:17):
to him. Was it just out of treatment curiosity or
were you actually partly kind of playing with an attraction
for him or curiosity or anyway, So it doesn't really
matter what word we put to it. But I think
we've explained at least our initial conceptualization. And then she says,
or is it more like a trauma response? And then

(24:39):
she says, thank you for your insight and your compassionate
way you approach these topics. Let's take a break. What
do you say?

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (24:51):
So during the break, I opened the window and yelled
quiet to demonstrate so was that untoward neighbors? And then
I closed my windows. And then you told me that
Diane Keaton died.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, so in order to honor her incredible memory and
legacy and all the variety of things, that she did
in her life were just mind blowing, and she was
a style icon. I rewatched First Wives Club, which holds
up so good and is so funny and has a

(25:26):
lesbian subplot, which is so early for that and those
kinds of movies. But she's so much funnier than I remembered.
She kind of plays the woman that's trying to be
super nicey nicy and hold it all together and then
she freaks out. But in that movie, her marriage therapist
is having an affair with her husband. Do you remember

(25:48):
that plot line? No? Oh, so funny. They do a
good job with it.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
But I am looking at her filmography, of course, Oh
my god. The Godfather is the first movie I remember
her all and then I read I rewatch Annie Hall
like once a year. It's such a good Yeah, it's
such fun. Interiors, which is my other one, one of
my other favorite Woody Allen movies. It's a very huge

(26:15):
departure and it's the very next year and it's very
family therapy, Freudian kind of thing. She was in Manhattan,
which I don't remember.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
And There's which is the greatest soundtrack ever.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
And she was in Reds.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
Which is she's incredible in that movie. Yeah, this is
a three hour movie.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yeah, a little drummer Girl. I don't remember that. Let's
see what else, Godfather three, Father the Bride.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Father the Bride.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
I need to rewatch that Manhattan Murder Mystery, another Woody Allen.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
Movie, and Father of the Bride. She was with Steve Martin. Yeah,
and Steve Martin has done some beautiful remembrances of her,
but one of which was that they were in the
same college play. She had the lead and.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
He was a stage hand, really.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
Which I just thought. He posted the program and it
was like so touchy.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
I wonder if that was in his memoir because I
recently read it and he taught Have you read his memoir?
It's so interesting.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
He's such an interesting So then that got me on
my Steve Martin memory, which was when I was seven
years old, my parents bought me Wild and Crazy Guy,
and then we listened to it as a family, completely
inappropriate listen. But Steve Martin is a huge influence on me.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah, the idea that like.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
They were friends long before they did Father the Bride.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
Apparently she directed one of the Twin Peaks episodes from
It Makes Perfect nineteen ninety one, which is very new
information for me. But the other thing I want to
talk about is there's no more queer love.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, devastated.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah. So the assumption by Tiff from season one and
others is.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
That receive all our information, Yeah, is.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
That this is a Trumpian response against all things human
and Netflix is cowtowing to that or what do you think?

Speaker 2 (28:11):
Well? I know personally that the numbers were huge. I mean,
and I saw what the numbers were, and they were huge.
So it doesn't make any sense to me that they
cancel it. I don't know if it's too complicated to cast.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
Yeah, that's what I was wondering, Yeah, because they would
pull from all over the country. Yeah, but yeah, I
think there's a good chance that that was a factor.
I mean, with Jimmy Kimmel and Colbert and other kinds
of things. It's pretty clear that even if the government
isn't threatening a particular media outlets, there's been a shift culturally,

(28:45):
and especially all the rich, white secret maga guys are
starting to assert themselves.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
You know, and not just Netflix. But like, is this
a ultimatum pullback from queer content? Right, because that's that's
what I mean. Yeah, yeah, there's contents. Well, I'm just
like bigger than you know, Netflix is one thing, but
just to like, this really comes out of a very
specific arm of things that is traditionally very straight. These

(29:13):
like love and romance shows can easily go on just
producing straight content, right, And it was pretty.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
Because because queer people will watch straight content, street people
don't watch queer content except for Queer Love season one.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
And people are still talking.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
About it, like, yeah, I watched it and reacted to it,
thinking that it was not going to get much activity
on YouTube my reaction videos, but.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
We're still sending each other memes about it.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, but it was. It was a big deal. And
I don't know the numbers, and you know, Netflix is
kind of cagey about reporting those kinds of things, which
is fine, Plus it's from them. We can't really know
for sure what's happening, but it seemed pretty clear that
season one was in the zeitgeist. Season two so was not.

(30:02):
You know, it was pretty clear that not only with
my numbers, which is fine, but with the chatter online
and everything like that. And so I couldn't figure out
what I obviously and no one would know what that is.
But I think there's a number of possibilities. It could
be Maga CEOs or Trump pressure or worries of things

(30:25):
or something. It could be just people following the trend
and canceling a show that had a tremendous success in
the and it's you know, even if it was just
an average success, it's a public good in some ways,
you know.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, in the conversations, I mean, people would friends of
mine would write me every episode that they watched, you know,
like what do you think, Oh my god, what's happening? Yeah,
like this was a way for us to bond and
connect and see ourselves in a way that nothing else
has ever done.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
Yeah. But I was also wondering if it was audience related,
at least in part in that the first season, for
whatever reason, just struck the right chord with people, and
maybe it was novel or something, because I am just
going to take a guess and say that the majority
of viewers were not queer. We're not gay themselves, and

(31:17):
we're because you know, that's most viewers is that they're
they're not queer, And so it was a novel thing
that might have worn off by the second season, and
people were just like, oh, yeah. I watched season one
and that was interesting, but I have other things to
watch this time. I don't know, but but it was
a pretty big difference. Netflix, also, I think, will ratchet

(31:41):
down their marketing, you know, because they can they can
push whatever.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah, Like there was like Love Is Blind season five,
if people remember, was sort of a disastro season and
Netflix clearly was not trying to highlight that season. And
I think Stacey told me that she only figured out
that the season had even been published because someone emailed

(32:10):
about it. Usually because if you know on Netflix, if
you tend to watch a show the next season, you
know two weeks before it comes out, it's like coming soon, right,
And it wasn't doing that with that.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
So I went, faure, you got me so excited about
Great British Breakoff that I was going crazy and then
I was like, I have to wait two weeks?

Speaker 1 (32:27):
Yeah yeah, right. So Netflix has the ability to they
know me, to highlight certain things for you. And with
Queer Love season two, because of Maga CEOs or pressure,
did they just not promoted enough or something, I don't know,
but the fact that it's canceled is you know, that
fucking sucks. We're going in the wrong direction here.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah. I will say this weekend just in terms of
like queer culture has always been underground. We've never seen
ourselves represented. We create our own entertainment that the outside
of these spaces that are corporately funded. I went to
Ta Boy Wrestling. Have you heard about this. It's out

(33:09):
of LA. They have a tour where I think they
pull on local folks to volunteer to wrestle. It's all
trans men, greco style wrestling, and some kind of more
performance piece wrestling on a sprung floor in a traditional
wrestling like ring ring uh ripping their shirts off, like

(33:34):
the crowd going like insane, and I was like, oh right,
this is this is how we meet in these like
outside events. If it comes to your town, please go.
It was unbelievable, like sold out, like so sold out.
That was like I think we're at like fire code capacity,

(33:54):
Like it just felt like packed and excited. So it's
just your reminded me of Yeah that I don't expect
to see myself on TV. I expect to see myself
in a tiny venue reflecting ourselves back to ourselves. Yeah,
and I'm super bummed that's queer low cut canceled.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
Speaking of bomb Jane Goodall died.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
I know, early hero, my God. Talk about someone who
was bad ass to the very last moment of her existence.
Talk about someone who changed the way we think about
animals and ourselves. And I keep reflecting on this that
if you're ever in Seattle, we have a great local

(34:35):
history museum called Mohai Museum of History and Industry. And
in their new to US location a fe years old
as we are, I'm sure it's been there for like
ten years at this point. What the new location of Mohai.
It's not near the U dub anymore now, it's now
at the bottom of the Lake Union.

Speaker 1 (34:52):
Yeah. I actually I think it goes back twenty twenty
five years. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
So they have this great McCarthyism exhibit and it's the
full list of the Unamerican activities. What you would be
asked if you were called and presume to be a Communist,
And one of the questions was do you believe that
animals have the same rights as humans? And I think

(35:21):
of Jane Goodall all the time, and I think of
that question because she believed that animals have the same
rights as humans. Wow, Yeah, what's your Jane Goodall memory.
I mean, you look moony as you think about her.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
Well, I feel like there would just be these occasional
blips of contact with her and documentaries, and I just
have these visions of her releasing a chimpanzee or a
gorilla into the wild after being pulled out of a

(35:56):
zoo or injured in the wild or shot but alive
and given medical treatment and then released, and how the primates,
fellow primates would interact with her in a way that
just seems so human and.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
Her they would like come back for a hug. I mean,
it was just like, oh, yeah, like so beautiful. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
I mean there's a chance that when I was like,
I don't know, fifteen or twenty or something, that one
of the very first times when I was like, oh, yeah,
they're just other animals like us, Like that looks very
relatable the way that Jane Goodall is relating to those
other primates, you know, and the emotion is clear, and

(36:40):
the attachment and the relationship and the appreciation and the
bond or whatever, and you know, the human side of
primatology or the human side of biology or evolution or
you know that she added that and she was such
a great speaker for it, and she was smart in
a lot of ways.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
You know her last interview, she just rips Trump to
shreds like I'm like the way to go, like right
before you go out, just punch him in the throat.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Do you want to hear my list of recent people
that have died that are on my list? Robert Redford,
which is huge hero.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
Have you ever been to sun Dance Film Festival?

Speaker 1 (37:22):
No?

Speaker 2 (37:23):
Life changing? I mean what he did for film life changing?

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah. I watched a couple of his movies recently.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
Like he do ordinary People. Was that him?

Speaker 1 (37:34):
No? Well he might have directed it, but he wasn't
in it. Michael Madison, I don't know if you know him,
but he was in famously in Reservoir Dogs, Mister White.
He was the guy who cut off the CoP's ear
if you remember that part. Lynn Marie Stewart, she was
Charlie's mom and it's always Sonny in Philadelphia. And she
was also in a lot of She used to be

(37:54):
on Laverne and Shirley and she was in American Graffiti.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
That's so great, Yeah, that role. Uh.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
Graham Green, the Native American actor Terrence Stamp who was
General Zod and Superman two.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
And also was Priscilla Queen of the Desert right.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yes, exactly, and also in the Lamey. I think he's
in a bunch of shit. Jim Lovell astronaut from Paul thirteen,
the one that Tom Hanks, you know, portrayed daniel Spencer.
Danielle Spencer. She was the younger sister and what's happening

(38:38):
do you remember that?

Speaker 2 (38:38):
Oh? Yes, she was a veterinarian. She went on to
be a veterinarian. Yeah, what a cool that role.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
So her name was the older brother, right, and she
was always bothering him. Another eighties figure, not a good guy,
Ozzie Nouzzy Osbourne.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
So what's your earliest Ozzy Osbourne memory or primal?

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Well, before I had ever heard his music, I had
just heard because in the seventies all the panic among
the suburban about him, and also Kiss rumored to bite
the heads off bats on stage, and how they had
all this devil worship and stuff, and that's all that

(39:30):
I heard. So when I thought when I heard of
Ozzy Osborne or Black Sabbath or Kiss, I thought of
just like horrible death, you know, just really dark music.
And then I started later in life actually listening to
Kiss albums, and it's just like poppy. It's very poppy.

(39:51):
It's almost like fifties music.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
In a way. You know, well, so did you see?

Speaker 1 (39:56):
And then later I would love Black Sabbaths. I listened
to it all the time.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Black Sabbath. So, uh, Ozzy Osbourne is in the Rock
and Roll Hall of Fame twice, once as with Black
Sabbath and once on his own. And when he got
inducted on his own. Have you seen this piece where
Jack Black does Ozzie Osborne and Billie Idol does Ozzy Osbourne.
It's like, you know, just what is positive? I mean,

(40:23):
he was a horrible drug addict, not great to his wives,
all of this other stuff. But in terms of like
what is male magnetism, I would say it's Ozzy Osbourne
a lesbian.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
That's Malcolm Jamal Warn. I think we talked about that.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
I saw my eyes out on that one.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
Uh. Connie Francis the singer, yes, Jimmy Swagger, the.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
Preacher, the good riddance on that one.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Sly Stone the musician, Brian Wilson, beach Boy, George went
norm on cheers.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
Really he died?

Speaker 1 (40:55):
I miss that, Yeah, this is all.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
No, I didn't miss that because I thought of where
do I go that people say my name? And it's
the consignment store.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Becca, This is all twenty twenty, Pope Francis val Kilmer.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
Val Kilmer, the documentary of Val Kilmer that he's his
son made is really worth a watch. It's really a
life well lived. And he lost his voice like ten
years before he died. Yeah, and found a way to
torment his kids voiceless. It's really precious.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
George Worman, the boxer slash seller of the George Orman Grill.
Did you know he has like five sons all named
George George Yeah, ROBERTA. Flack the singer, Yeah, Gene Hackman
the actor, and David Lynch the director.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
So added to that. I always thought her name was
Miss Major, but she had two last names. So one
of the most famous important Stonewall.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Activists.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
She was there. She passed away a day.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
Or two ago, Miss Major Marcia Johnson. Yeah, really make
note of it.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, really change the story on trans identity in terms
of early pioneer and transpower as opposed to trans suffering.
Just made and from what I've heard, would really take
the time to talk to somebody and not be like
on a high horse, but really like emotionally available for

(42:29):
anyone who would approach her. Powerful, powerful woman.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah she just died yesterday. Yeah. Yeah, So I keep
an Excel spreadsheet of notable deaths called the death Log,
and that's me because I think about death every day.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Your book's about to come out, do I get to.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
Well, I'm not gonna you don't have to read or
buy or anything, but I want. But i'd be curious
what you thought of it.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah. I mean it's something that we've bonded on so intensely.
You've been so helpful to me and my own grieving process,
which I then hear is helpful to other people's grieving process. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
I mean, I personally am proud of the thing, but
I don't consider myself to be a writer. So you know,
read if you do read it with that in mind.
Let's take a break. We get back, I will read
an email. What do you say?

Speaker 2 (43:26):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (43:31):
All right? Email annual long term patron Sarah. She says,
I have some questions for Rebecca here. I am you
recently answered my question on EMDR therapy. Thank you so much.
I've been going to therapy for about seven years for
complex trauma, and now I'm doing EMDR to two to
help me process that trauma. So thanks for answering my email.

(43:52):
Since I started EMDR, I've had an increase of my
trauma symptoms. Yes, I read this.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
What do you want to can I just jump in?
So I always say to clients like, hey, you probably
don't talk about this very much. So when you're doing
trauma therapy, I always think of like we're stirring the pot,
so anything that had gotten settled safely down at the
bottom is now reactivated.

Speaker 1 (44:12):
Yeah, and I will say that there's a tolerable, helpful
level of trauma symptom stirring and you can't do it
without it. You can't recover without that. Do you like
my metaphor?

Speaker 2 (44:29):
I like you no, I'm like, are we going to
play with this metaphor the whole time? I think it
would be good. Yeah, it's a good metaphor.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
So no pain, no game. When it comes to trauma recovery.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
You're going to have some You're gonna have to go
in there, and we don't make any space for it. Yeah,
it's real hard and you feel alone, but you're.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Not having said that there's a tolerable level and if
it's beyond that, then you're going too fast.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
And the therapist I also say that to my clients
like this is this is unmanageable what we're doing. I
will slow down.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Yeah, So there's there's manageable level, but there's also re
traumatization level. You know. It's sort of akin to if
we use another metaphor of working out, if you haven't
worked out in a long time and you just really
go for it, you could tear muscles, you could create
scar tissue, you could have a heart attack, right, you know,

(45:23):
so that exercise is good, but too much exercise can
actually kill you. So you know, it's all a matter
of balance and there has to be a lot of monitoring.
But anyway, go on.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
And also with EMDR and with sensor remoter, the work
that I do is like we're not just doing verbal processing.
So with EMDR, you're working in the channels of the brain,
I don't know how else to say it. With sensor
remoter or we're working in the channels of the body.
And the hope is that you can get to some
of the content without having to talk specifically about all

(45:58):
of the details, which is where can get more traumatizing
than lot going on.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
I re listened to Rebecca's episode about her trauma, the
one where you were laying down on the ground, Yes.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Which is a private it's patron only, so if you
haven't heard it, become a patron.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Uh. And I was so impressed with her writers around
talking about her trauma to you. Yeah, writers meaning like,
I will.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
Do this if you take me on to lunch afterwards.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
Well and comfy position, regular breaks, high protein meal, yes,
so we had we had less. And the writer meaning
that I don't know if it only applies to like
performers that are traveling, but they will send a writer
ahead to the venue saying these are the things that
I need, you know, And so uh she's saying, I

(46:51):
was impressed that Rebecca asserted that, and she's saying those
things seemed specific and helpful and feasible. My questions are,
how did you, Rebecca develop these self care behaviors? How
did you?

Speaker 2 (47:09):
So? I am decades into processing my trauma, and some
of this was that I got I was doing this
with you, so it felt safe to ask. I don't
always ask for what I need or get what I
need but I felt comfortable to ask you. I also
had to really think it through, like I was doing
something that could have been really risky. I mean we've

(47:30):
only I've only gotten positive content back at me. I
don't know if you're editing it, but like all of
the very emotionally exposed things that I've done on this so,
I mean I had to think it through, like, Hey,
I'm going to do this thing. What usually happens to
me when I do something really emotional, Well, my endercin

(47:54):
system goes crazy, so I should probably eat afterwards. Do
I want to sit up while I tell the story? Hell? No,
I need to lie down. So it was really just
kind of doing a system's review. I guess some of
this is probably sensorymoter that you know, I am going
through felt perception, seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Have you always been this way though, like able to
assert your needs? Yeah? No, So how did you develop that?

Speaker 2 (48:24):
I think sensorymot really helped me do that, like.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
Getting paying attention to your body.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
Paying attention to my body, like just just the food part,
like I brought in a protein shake just today to
do this podcast. You know, I I the older I get,
the more I understand how my body works, and that
I know I can go hypo manic, meaning my body

(48:51):
will shut down. So part of lying down was me thinking, well,
what do I do usually? Well, I usually going into collapse.
So if we pre plan collapse and I'm already collapsed,
then I won't collapse. I'm already in the right position
to collapse if I need to collapse. So yeah, there's

(49:16):
and this is the work of Pat Ogden and doctor
Janina Fisher. But yeah, especially for women, we're given no
permission to know what our needs are ahead of time,
or if we state them, we're told that we're way
too much. So hell yeah, it was shamed out of
me not to have needs.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
Yeah. Yeah, it's complicated. But the bottom line is is
that for me?

Speaker 2 (49:41):
I well, why did you respect them? Or what was
it like to hear me ask for all that stuff?

Speaker 1 (49:46):
Yeah, well it's a gift to me to be able
to do that for you. So I and it was
not inconvenient at all, So of the things you were
asking for, it was like fine totally. You know, it
was unusual because I gave you like a big down

(50:06):
blanket and it was very comfy, and I.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
Figured out a way to make it funny. That day,
I'm sitting in the same spot right now. I remember
it was funny.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
And I had to figure out a way to get
the microphone into your face while yeah, on the ground, and.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
You couldn't see me. This is back. This was also
COVID protocol, so we were even farther apart.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Well, I had a different setup in my office, so
I couldn't really see you, which you know, but I
could hear you. You were just like, you know, maybe
five feet away from me. But anyway, yeah, you know,
it was it was a gift that I could do
that for you. I you know, as a friend, as

(50:45):
a supportive person, as a human. People want to help,
and if you tell them how they can help, then
they feel good about themselves. You know. It's sort of
just imagine, you know, if you've ever had that feeling
when you're walking around your hometown and you see a
tourist and they walk up to you and say, where's
the space needle and you can say, it's two blocks

(51:06):
that way. All you have to do is look up,
you fucking idiot, Just joking, just joking. I don't think that,
but I you know, when I lived I used to
live right by the Space Little and I would there
will there'll be a lot of tourists looking at that
tourist map, and I would and I would walk up
and I'd be like, hey, can I help you find something?

(51:26):
I'd be like, oh my god, thank you. And it
was usually pretty easy because in that zone, it's like
this weird angle road.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
If you've never been to Seattle, there's three or four
points in this town that are total tangle towns because
three or four different guys, white guys, when they built
up the city, oriented their streets in different directions and
so and part of it also is that we have
several bodies of water which impact what direction streets can
go into, and so you get these areas like around

(51:55):
the Space Needle, around Green Lake. They're just like the
streets are so confusing that people just get lost.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Right, Yeah, that five points stop by Green Lake is
and it's really a wide space and everyone's always confused,
like whose turn is it. I always just go because
I'm just like, I'm not gonna do the Seattle thing
and go no you go, no, you go, just like
I'm going. So for people to give me the opportunity

(52:25):
to help them. It's a gift. The other thing is
that when you ask for help, Rebecca, it was uncomplicated.
Is a thing, you know, there's a way to add
There's very different ways to ask for help. One way
is to ask, like what comes to mind is like, hey,
I know that you're a stickler for this, but could

(52:48):
I have this? There's an insult in there, you know,
and the requester is trying to accommodate, right, They're like, yay,
I know that you don't like this, but could I
have this?

Speaker 2 (52:59):
There?

Speaker 1 (53:00):
That could throw a wrench in it. Now, if you
receive that kind of request from someone, you know, just
roll with it. But I find that some requests from
people they've thought too long and hard about it, and
when they finally make their request there's weirdness as they
express it that can throw a wrench in the situation.
So the best thing in which is what you did, Rebecca,

(53:22):
is just like because you trusted me, You're just like, okay,
this is what I need. Dad? Is that okay? And
I'm like, yeah, totally. So that's just another little tip
because if you find that your requests kind of go
a little wonky. The other thing is just find people
that would take your request. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because some people,
for various reasons, have a hard time with requests.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
And I had been thinking about doing that episode for
like ten years and trying to find the right time
and the right way, and I needed to be ready
and like maybe you and I needed to be ready
to go there. Yeah. So it didn't come in a vacuum, right.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
It wasn't just like you woke up one day and
said I'm gonna do this. You know, there was it
was hard. You know, there's another question, And I know, Rebecca,
you also mentioned that you have some shutdown behaviors like TV,
online shopping. What what is she talking about there?

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (54:20):
I see, like watching TV or online shopping is a
way for you to shut down.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Yeah. I have a quick story, real real quick. So
I just went to the Art Therapy conference in Portland,
my first time going back since the Karen Penns demonstrations,
and I'm staying with like the person that I can
spend more. We were like crack to each other in
terms of like spending money. And one of the things
that gets announced day two of the conference is that
your badge will get you into the Adidas Employee store

(54:49):
and everything in the store is half price, and I
immediately screenshot it send it to my friend. We go.
We spend so much money, like an embarrassing amount of money.
We have like bags and bags and bags, And I
was like, oh my god, we're like addicts when we're together.
This is so bad.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
Well, were you shutting down or were you just we were.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
Actually having the time of our lives. Will I be
paying it off for a while, Yes, But I've also
been thinking a lot about under fascism, Like I just
need some joy right now. And if it's a pair
of silver Adidas that are like showstoppers that small children
stop me in the street to talk to me about,
I'll spend money on that.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
So she asked, where is the line between cocooning type
behaviors when you're giving tell you I can tell you,
and avoiding behaviors like when you're shutting down? How do
you tell the difference?

Speaker 2 (55:45):
So I would say, it's who you surround yourself with.
In many many ways, I can do the same behavior
with the two different people, and one will be like, hey,
I totally respect that you are off today, that you
are out of spoons, And I could do it with
someone else, and they will say, like you are doing

(56:07):
this to hurt me. Why do you always cocoon when
it's time to be with me? So some of it
is who you surround yourself with. Some of it is
it's like a lifestyle choice, like we live like in
one of the sportiest Is there a sportier city than Seattle,

(56:27):
where like people are in helmets and climbing mountains Bend
to Oregon? Like the primary response, like someone I know
is perpetually there's always someone in my life that's training
to run a marathon, Like just like that's the primary scope.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
Hiking.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
You're fifty five and you're still skiing, like I don't
even know, and if you know, or maybe you've switched
to snowshoeing or you know, like people here are incredibly
active and I people I know people that have like
ten bikes, like and like you know, you need a
pallboard and a canoe and you have five pairs of
skis like and a mountain bike like this. These are

(57:10):
these people.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
Yeah, and I came out of the closet like fifteen
years ago and finally just declared that I'm not that person.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
Yeah, neither mind I'm a total couch potato, and the
older I get, I just surround myself with more and
more couch potatoes who just want to go to arts
events or come over and watch TV. I have a
soup exchange going with some friends with somebody, we like
make too much soup and bring it to each other's
houses and then like we don't actually interact, We just
like leave it at each other's door and then text

(57:40):
each other how good the soup was. Like this is
I am. I am a home body and it doesn't
work for some people. Some people get super angry at
me for that, and other people love that about me,
so I would say. And there are times where like, okay,
I haven't showered in one too many days, or I

(58:02):
love my friends that write me who are like I
just slept with my laundry, and I was like, I
totally understand. Last night, I diabetic cookies for dinner and
which are actually just crackers, there's nothing cookie about them.
You know, we all hit that super exhausted space. I
know when my house starts to look a certain way

(58:22):
that I've cocooned too far. But I also know who
I can spend time with. That's going to understand that, Like,
I'm super low energy. So one of the most famous
walks in Seattle is to walk Seward Park. Is it
it's a mile or two's?

Speaker 1 (58:40):
I think it's a mile a.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
Mile, So I'm a super slow walker. Some of that
is the auto uterine rupture. Some of the that is
that I'm just like a catch potato. There's been times
where I've.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Been are you also short but still shorter? People have
shorter legs so they walk slower.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
But there are times where I've been lapped by a
friend who's also walking that walk like two or three times,
and then the third time they're just like looking at
me like holy shit, like you are not moving, but
I'm like I'm moving for me. Yeah. So yeah, I
just I just have accepted that part about myself. And

(59:20):
I mean, would you tell me if I smelled bad
and I hadn't showered when I came in?

Speaker 1 (59:25):
Uh, I guess, But that's I would never have thought that. Well, one,
if you didn't shower in the morning, I assume since
you're a couch potato, you're not like drenched in like
gross sweat and stuff, you know what I mean. I mean,
I literally never thought that. Oh my god, try and.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
Shower the day at least the day I have, if
not the day before.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
I never think that you are grosser in the least.
You always seem very put together.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
That's very good. That's good to hear. Yeah, yeah, that's
all that online shopping. So yeah, I mean I I
run slow. It's just how I run. Yeah, it's not
for everybody, the people in my life.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Right. Well, so the phrase that I would put to
it is meet your needs. Yeah, if your need is
to avoid, then avoid, you know, I think long term,
Patie Sarah, you're saying that it's a bad thing to avoid.
It's not a bad thing to avoid. Your body is
telling you something. Now, you can go too far in

(01:00:24):
that direction and encourage I guess, a form of depression,
right without trying to counter it with like Okay, I've
I've got to get move in here or else I'm
gonna just die on this couch or something. You know,
I'm just gonna sink into depression and inactivity. And by
moving it actually gets the blood going, gets the mood gone.

(01:00:45):
So there are some downsides to over cocooning or over avoiding,
but especially when you're going through trauma therapy because that's
you know, what you were talking about. Yeah, I would
over emphasize the cocooning slash avoiding because you're going through
a tough time and there's a lot of needs there.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
Yeah. And also I would say when I live in
my rhythm, I produce more between ten and three than
most people produce if they worked all day. Like, it's
kind of shocking to me that, like, when I can
just run at my pace get the rest that I
need to. I mean, I don't think anyone in my
life would be like Rebecca, you haven't done enough.

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
Great. Yeah, that's another thing of just the amount of
expectation that people tend to put on themselves about how
much they're going to achieve in a day, you know, So,
you know, just taking inventory about that. And then she ends,
thank you again for everything you do for your podcast listeners.
You've changed my life.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
That's so sweet.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
I was with my friend who I shopped Till I
Drop with and they are fascinated by this podcast, and
they were asking me about it, and I was saying
that I am part of the coolest international community that
I could ever imagine. It's like, oh, which reminds me.
I have a new hobby which is paint by numbers.

(01:02:07):
I've been loving it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Yeah, that was a trend like ten years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Yeah, and I was thinking, so they're big. I tend
to find them. So the first one I found a
Goodwill and it was huge. I'm still working on it,
but I'm going to complete it. And then I thought
if we could give it to a patron to have
some kind of because people send us stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
So how would we give it away?

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
I don't know, if someone do we want to have
a maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
People would email in and then they could be in
a a raffle drawing. Yeah, not a raffle, but like
a lot of because raffle you have pay tickets or
just just like a random yes.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
And we will. So this one's of Paris in the Spring.
So if you would like my paint, I think I'm
going to judge it up with a little glitter paint
when I'm done. But if you would like my paint
by numbers of Paris in the Spring, please write in
and and we will send it to you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
Put in the subject on the subject box on our
contact form on our website say Rebecca's painting and I will,
and to.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
Be clear, this is paint by numbers.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
Yeah, Rebecca's painting, and I will inform Stacy about this
so that she knows well.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
And now it will probably it looks like every few
months I'll have another painting to give away. And now,
so everyone's asking me, how are you're coping by making
music doing all kinds of stuff I'm coping. Paint by
numbers seems to be how I'm coping with fascism, and
it's lovely and I just love it all right.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
There's another email here, YouTube member and long term patron, Louise.
She says, Louise, Dear Kirk, Rebecca, I've been meaning to
write this email for a long time, and I finally
found the time in headspace. My daughter, my one and
only child, is twelve, soon to be thirteen, and I'm
finding it hard to cope with her getting older and
becoming more independent. Yes, visuation, there are two parts to this.

(01:04:03):
Number one is my fear of losing her and the
special relationship we have. We are very close. She likes
to sit with me in the evening and watch Superstore
and Gilmore Girls, so I love Superstore. I love both
of these. So we could never get.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
Into Gilmore Girls. I don't know what's wrong with me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
I'm you're wrong, Well, how have you tried?

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
I've watched it, and like, how much of you watched it?
I don't know. Some of the first season I just
don't get.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Yeah, no, it's a I was the same. So there's
a rhythm that it's at a very fast pace, the dialogue,
and once I got used to it, I loved the show.
Stacy and I are rewatching it. I guess I'm rewatching
it maybe for the fifth or sixth time right now.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
I got it because I'm running out of shows. I'm
running on a show so intensely that I got britt Box,
and then I'm running out of those shows. So I
got it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
Well, the nice thing about shows in the past is
that they had like twenty five episodes per season.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Right now, like the eight now where you're like, what
it's over?

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
Yeah, and there are and all of them are on
Netflix and so but yeah, Superstore and Gilmore Girls, Stacey
and I, these are two of our favorite shows, so
watching those, like Louise Wear the Same. So going on,
I just.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
Want to say, just today I drove by EA's work
and I was late. I was running late to get here,
and everything in my body was like go in and
say hi. And I knew I would bug them and
I would be late to see you, and I was like, no,
don't stop, you have to keep going.

Speaker 1 (01:05:44):
Would I mean, you have a good relationship with them,
so it's not like they would be that upset, right,
but they would just be a little like, oh, yeah,
I work and expect a hug, but also happy to
see you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
And yeah. But that act of individuating as a parent too,
that empty nesting that's saying goodbye, it's in Louise, it's
incredibly painful. I feel you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
Yeah, so she says, I feel like I'm already grieving
the loss even though it hasn't happened yet.

Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
So then you get to grieve the loss when it happens.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
So how did you deal with this when he was
twelve training thirteen in terms of the pre grief.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
Yeah, of it. I mean so for some kids, they
become such assholes in middle school that it's easy to
reject them because their behavior is so annoying, so that
we had that experience. But yeah, I mean, you're losing
that little kid. I mean I remember, like all these
things that you'll never do again, like doing puzzles on

(01:06:47):
the floor or helping with Halloween costumes.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
Or well, and just how obsessed they are with you. Yeah,
they want you, they are interested in you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
They you get to dress them, Like when my kid
was like, do not buy clothes for me anymore? Like
I went and like there are these moments where like
you kind of go into a panic and you lose
that activity.

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
Yeah, you're the one that is pushing them away. Really,
you know, you're the one that's like, oh, I'm sorry,
I have to go to work, or oh I have
to do chores, or I have to do this email,
and they're the one pursuing you. And then it flips right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
Yeah. I mean I I have had this conversation ten
million zillion times with friends with clients. I remember a
cent a friend of mine. Our kids were peers, like
buddies for years, and she said, at some point, maybe
pre middle school, he won't let me hug him anymore.

(01:07:41):
And I was like, oh my god, like you know,
and she was visibly kind of cheering up, and I
was like, I feel you so intensely. And my kid
still lets me touch them. But this idea that you
would go from being completely amashed to them saying don't
ever touch the well, don't say.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
It meshed close. Close yeah, very close. Very nushment is abusive,
so you're talking about close.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
But yeah, just your bodies are one, Yes, they started
as one. I mean if you were the birth parent,
like your body has been one with them for a
very intimate long time, and then all of a sudden
there's this sense of like I don't need you that much.
And then so the philosophy that I've that I learned

(01:08:29):
that was most helpful for me and has been most
helpful for friends and clients. I don't know who came
up with this. Some family counselor was like in the
teen years, view yourself as a potted plant. You are silent,
you are nearby, and when called on, you are available,
and that I just would say that to myself over

(01:08:52):
and over again, like I am nearby. When necessary, I
will jump into action, which I always did. But yeah,
there's so much grieving. I mean at this time of year.
So I know for different people, different times of year
bring this up the most, but for me, as all
the Halloween costumes are like coming up on my phone

(01:09:12):
I'm just like, oh, like, you know, this time of
year was so special for us as a family, and
you know it's not that way anymore. He doesn't know
what I'm going to be for Halloween, and I don't
know if they're even going to do Halloween.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
What are you doing?

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
Fow, I have so many costumes here it's unbelievable. So
I already costumes.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Well, I already was, So you're going to go as
run Or DMC.

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
I already was a Fox for the Tarot podcast. And
then I've been requested at a Washington State leather fundraiser
Halloween night, and so I think I'm going sexy Witch.
And when I was in Portland Thrifting, I found a
black velvet cape and I was like, oh, the Thrifting
guys are shining at me today.

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
So yeah, I'll well, Stacy and I are going as
and Or and mon Mathma.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
That's amazing. Your costumes are always off the chain, amazing,
and you would be a perfect and Or.

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
Well. I asked Stacy if I should grow out my
beard because he has a little bit of a beard,
and she wasn't really a fan. So maybe I'll paint
it on. We'll see.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
And like what phase in his journey? Are you.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
The beginning of the series. It's that kind of Or wait,
is it the movie outfit? It might be No, I
don't know. I'd have to look it up.

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
But and for those who haven't already, if you haven't
watched season two of and Or, it is the most
powerful thing you can watch right now. The slide into fascism.
It's I mean season one the prison industrial Complex movie
Blew Me Away, but season two where they move ahead
like a year every single episode. Baller, Yeah, life changing.

Speaker 1 (01:10:57):
First time I've heard you say.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
Baller, we're talking about a detail.

Speaker 1 (01:11:03):
Yeah, So grieving that loss is tough. The other thing
I'll say is that you're assuming that your kid won't
want to do those things with you, and some kids,
especially today because of the shifting towards health and self
care and not stigmatizing kids that are still connected to
their parents. Although there is that stigma, but much less

(01:11:26):
than when we were growing up.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
And when we were growing up, you did everything to
run from your parents.

Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
Yeah, if you didn't just actively reject your parents, even
at twenty five, there was something deeply wrong with you.
And that is not the case anymore. Or at least
it's a lot less And so there's a lot of
teens and young adults that will still, you know, sit

(01:11:52):
very close to their parents and watch Superstore and Gilmore Girls.
So I'm not I don't want to give you false
hope necessarily, but I will say.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
I've had some of the most beautiful, intimate moments of
my life with Eli in the past as an adult, Like,
it's still really possible, but.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
It's likely going to be different, and it's likely going
to be.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
Less often, and you get to watch them soar in
another way, like do you know Kay Sinnett is the
most popular twitch streamer in the world.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):
Maybe I've heard of them?

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
Okay, so Eli got to go to la and oh yeah,
will be in a nerve.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30):
Battle, Eli or you or Eli sent me a video
of all that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
It was probably me okay, But like, you get to
watch your kid, if you're lucky, do what they do
best in this crazy ass world that we live in
and be really really happy.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
Right. There are things you gain, you lose some things,
but you also gain some things. But overall it sucks
and that's the curse of parenting.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
Yeah, and in this generation, you know, I very chances
are low that I will have grandchildren, and so it's
like just trying to love on my kid as much
as I possibly can, yeah, and make my life, make
their life. So tying this all in with the grief.

(01:13:16):
You know, my mom passed in the most complicated unprepared
She completely was unprepared to die. Made my life so
hellish as that whole thing ended. And you know, I've
got everything in place so that my kid doesn't have
to do that stuff. So like still parenting, but you know,
as in an aging parent with an adult child kind

(01:13:39):
of way.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
Yeah, I'm in a couple of days, I'm heading up
to Bellingham for a day to hang out with my
parents and go to their attorney to start writing up
their will. My parents are very proactive, particularly my mom,
about this, and so I'm saying this to all my
gen X listeners out there that and my baby boomers

(01:14:01):
are listening as well, that preparing for the next phase
of existence is helpful and meaningful and helps to have
some comfort. And I think my mom gets a lot
of comfort from them.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
And you're really close with your parents, like yeah, yeah, yeah,
But I was also thinking in terms of what this
woman is saying like, I don't know if your mom, well,
your mom had a lot of kids, but you know,
just knowing that you have to fill your life with
something else that isn't your children. And I was lucky
and that things started to come my way as Eli aged,

(01:14:40):
and I have opportunities now that I couldn't have done,
Like the whole sex therapy training process. I don't know
if I could have done that if I had a
kid in the house, Like it was epic. It was
like getting a second master's degree. So there you have
to fill your life and that is hard, and that's
where the empty nester stuff comes in, Like you can't

(01:15:02):
rely on your kids to take up all your time anymore.
And the way that we parent now so much more
is asked of us to give completely to our children
in a way that other generations. You know, we give
up our hobbies, We run around to sports events. I
was reminded the other day that when Eli was doing
rock climbing, the kids events would start at like six am,

(01:15:24):
so we would be up at like four point thirty
on a weekend to drive them to Kirkland to sit
in a warehouse and watch children climb rocks and I'm
like not even awake yet, you know, and like that
whole phase of my life is over.

Speaker 1 (01:15:37):
Yeah. Yeah, So not only hobbies and activities and professional stuff,
but also close relationships, having that warmth. So for you
have you know, Sarah or Louise, sorry for you having
someone that you can watch Superstore and Gilmore Girls with.

Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
Yeah, you may need to turn towards your friends and
also that bonding that happens. Hopefully all your friends are
going through this together. I mean I still have friends
who know that I've just went through it, and they'll
call me and be like, my teenagers are assholes, you know,
and we'll have a whole conversation about it. So the
way that we speak about our children and the trouble
they get in and the things that happen gets so

(01:16:23):
much more complex as the age.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
So she has a number. She has another question. Okay,
number two is the fear of her going out in
the world and what could happen to her?

Speaker 2 (01:16:34):
Amen.

Speaker 1 (01:16:35):
I can feel my heart rate increase just typing these
words out.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
Yeah, so I will just say so I am I'm
not allowed to say anything to my friends. I know
that Eli's flying to La entering into this like weird
ass twitch Universe. They've signed an NDA, they've taken their phones.
I don't have any way to communicate with them. And
at some point I texted them and I was and
I have friends who's like kids good at Asia Europe

(01:17:01):
like this is but this, for me and my relationship
with ELI is the farthest most incommunication they've ever been.
And I just wrote them and I said, I don't
know where you are, I don't know when we'll be
in touch. I'm kind of freaking out as your mom,
and I know, you know, my other friend like her
kids in Vietnam, Like that's like so much farther, but

(01:17:24):
like for me, that was there was something about this
trip that Eli was on there that was like, Wow,
you've really flown the coupe and your life has really
gone and gone in your own direction.

Speaker 1 (01:17:34):
Yeah, I mean every physically painful, Yeah, every phase of this.
The first time they have a sleepover, the first time
they go to school, even right when they're in preschool
or kindergarten, or the first time they go to daycare
when they're three years old, or the first time, you know,
say six months into the child's life, you get a babysitter,

(01:17:59):
so you know, like grandma watches a kid and you
get to go to the store by yourself. Like all
of these moments are felt with tremendous anxiety and that
that's normal, and you know it's just a part of
the package. Again, the curse of being a parent going on.

Speaker 2 (01:18:17):
And I will say I have two close friends who
have lost their children, and I am as available to
them both of them as I can be one of
them more than the other. And to watch the level
of constant pain that they are in. You know, there

(01:18:40):
is a relationship with your child where you have all
of the hopes and the world and to know that
everything can go wrong and your heart will be broken
like forever. These are very intense. This isn't existential, you know,
this is like this relationship could and something horrible could

(01:19:01):
happen to your child, and it's incredibly painful. I think
it's the biggest. I don't know if there's a bigger
grief than losing your child.

Speaker 1 (01:19:10):
Yeah, no, I mean most people will say that that's
the worst. Yeah, yeah, going on. She is not straight,
she has a girlfriend. At the moment, I feel like
the world is increasing unsafe and potentially hostile to a
girl like her. She recently started walking to and from

(01:19:30):
school by herself when she's with her dad were separated,
I mean the dad. It completely terrifies me that she's
walking to school by herself, But most other kids in
our area have done that since they were much younger.
When I speak to other moms, she says, moms, because
I'm assuming UK or something. When I speak to other moms,

(01:19:53):
they seem much more relaxed about this. I sometimes wake
up in the night and can't back asleep because of
the anxiety. Terrifying thoughts and images that go around in
a room.

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
Tipping forward in a VW bus, like Eli Woolson in
my tree.

Speaker 1 (01:20:10):
For now, she's just walking to school. I honestly don't somedays.

Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
You'll be driving. That's terrifying that whole period.

Speaker 1 (01:20:18):
Yeah, if I had my way, I would just never
let her go anywhere. But I know that's not realistic
or healthy. And then she asked, am I being overreactive? Rebecca?

Speaker 2 (01:20:27):
What do you think? I mean? Everybody has a scale
of this. I remember when Eli was little and we
knew people that were obsessed that their child was going
to get abducted and I never had that thought. And
if they did abduct that child, I was like, good luck,
Like they would probably bring that child back. But you know,
everybody's different in what they fear and why they fear it.

(01:20:49):
I will say I've have friends and family and clients
that have all made it through these fears. If they
are so overwhelming, it's definitely something to bring in to
therapy of you know, the sense of letting go. What
does it mean to let her go? What does that

(01:21:11):
really really mean? It means that things change, nothing stays
the same. It means that we're out of control of
what happens in our lives. It means that the world
is a scary place. It's always been a scary place.
And yet somehow there's eight billion people on the planet.

(01:21:32):
Somehow people survive all of these things. So I think
it's really really complicated. I would obviously your anxiety is
specific to you, so we'd want to kind of sort
out what's happening there. But and it's really really normal,
I mean, especially god an adolescence where like, oh my god,

(01:21:58):
the year after my kid graduated, a kid was shot
and killed in the parking lot of the high school.
That they went to and there's just you know, like
life is so temporary, you don't know what's going to happen,
and yet you have to let your child go. Yeah,
it's so hard. I think the beauty is enjoying in

(01:22:21):
what they will share with you, But man, is there's
so much letting go in parenting.

Speaker 1 (01:22:27):
Yeah. Yeah, the keyword that you said is sorting through
because there's so many different aspects of this, because there's
nothing about your fears that is wrong or irrational or
made up or delusional. All of the things you're worried
about are things that any loving parent would worry about.

(01:22:47):
But how do you deal with that? What emphasis do
you put on it? You don't want to just completely
let them do whatever they want to, but you also
don't want to tie him to the bedpost. So what
is that exactly? How do you navigate that? It's very
complicated and I've worked with many parents on this question
and it gets kind of weird. But the path forward

(01:23:12):
is to go to therapy. This is a very important
thing for therapy, honestly, because it is likely that the.

Speaker 2 (01:23:21):
Your own attachment wounds.

Speaker 1 (01:23:23):
Right, and the and your traumas right. There's a you know,
there's very there's very different roads to over protectiveness of parents.
One is that they went through something horrible that they
have not recovered from. Another is that they have a spouse,
maybe even in a divorce, that is not feeling very

(01:23:44):
safe right, even if it's the spouse you live with.
If that other spouse seems to be overly permissive, then
you might feel like you need to be overly worried
or something. So it's very or there's triangulation of like,
we have a right.

Speaker 2 (01:24:01):
Right, they're so out of control. I have to be
I have to hold things.

Speaker 1 (01:24:04):
Super tight, right. There's a conflict between you and your
ex that is being triangulated through the kid or something.
But another one is praanification. If you were raised in
a way that made you feel like you're responsible for
taking care of your younger siblings, or your parents, or
even yourself when you're young, then there can be not
only a sense of responsibility that is not fair to you,

(01:24:28):
but also a sense of my worth is tied to
keeping other people safe. And that is my mission in
life is to keep people safe. Because if I keep
if I take my eyes off the ball, not only
will horrible things happen like Dad will get drunk and
drive into a ditch, or I will lose any love

(01:24:48):
and attachment from people because this is my only reason
that I'm getting any attention from my parents. It's because
I have value as a big sister or something like that.
So there's a potential the things that are unrelated to
the normal. You know, if you're looking at your friends
and you're like, I think I'm more scared than other people,

(01:25:09):
there's a lot of different reasons why that could be.
And so sifting sorting through all that while also recognizing
that your fears are normal. You are afraid that your
kid is gonna be raped or harmed, or a hate
crime or bullied, or or your kid's gonna get into
drugs or something. You know, there's these are okay worries.

(01:25:31):
You should be worried, but how do you navigate that?
And if you have over emphasis and paranoia, I mean,
then the thing that you're worried about is rational, but
the energy behind it is the trauma. You're saying that
you're lying awake at night, it wakes you up in

(01:25:51):
the middle of the night. This sounds like excessive anxiety
and is not helpful. And that's the other thing is like,
when it comes to these kinds of anxieties, how is.

Speaker 2 (01:26:03):
It impacting your level of functioning? It's keeping you up
at night? And this is every client I work with,
I'm like, how's sleep and food? Like, if those two
systems are jacked, we've got some.

Speaker 1 (01:26:14):
Work to do. Right. The other thing that I talked
with a lot of parents about was guidance versus control.
I don't know if it was just the sort of
problems that we're being, you know, coming to me with.
You know, I don't know if it's the sort of
problems that clients would come to me for, but I
very frequently would be talking about parents about guidance versus control.

(01:26:35):
There's various different ways in which it can get wonky,
but one of the principles is that when the kid
is younger, generally speaking, we will lean towards control versus guidance. Right,
if they want to spend the night at a house
of a kid that they just met yesterday at the

(01:26:56):
park or something, you're going to say know to that
in all likelihood and until you get to know that
family or something like that. But when they are seventeen
and they want to go on a date with someone
that they met at school and you've never met that person.
Depending on your culture and the situation at that point

(01:27:17):
you are hoping to guide. You can't if you start
to control, especially if things are going poorly and the
kid is defying or something, then what you should be
focusing on as guidance and that shift from control to guidance.
And so the mission is, I want to download as

(01:27:39):
much of wisdom and knowledge and decision making into this
child so that they are an autonomous creature in the
world that can act in a way that's safe for them.
I don't have to put up the all the the
cushions around them. They can actually do this on their own.

Speaker 2 (01:27:57):
Right. You want to teach this as making, which means
they're going to mess up a.

Speaker 1 (01:28:02):
Little bit, right the way that everyone does.

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):
Yeah, and it's it's hard. It's hard to watch them
mess up, but that's actually where the most learning happens.

Speaker 1 (01:28:12):
Yeah, and you have to be real strategic about it
because if you you know, if you're a parent of
a teen and just wait, my good Louis or twelve,
now twelve right now, just yeah, wait Louis, thirteen, fourteen,
My God.

Speaker 2 (01:28:29):
Yeah, there was time. I remember calling you at times
and you were like do you acts, don't say anything,
like the get a line. You were like it'll be okay,
and it was okay, yeah, but like you will need
support to get through these times.

Speaker 1 (01:28:43):
Yeah, it could get real bad. I've seen kids that
at twelve are watching Gilmore Girls and loving their parents,
and then they turned thirteen fourteen and they hate their parents.
You know, it's a it's a tough time. It's a
weird time. And the thing I'll say about that is

(01:29:04):
it gets better. Like you could do nothing and the
kid will just naturally get better from fourteen. And because
people people will see like a trajectory, it's just like,
well they keep getting worse. And it's like if I
project it forward to when they're twenty five, they're going
to be in prison. But that's not typically what happens.

Speaker 2 (01:29:26):
Interesting the way that independence. I mean, I had a
high schooler in COVID which messed everything up. But like
people start to drive, people get really into their hobbies.
Like these things happen that mellow your kids.

Speaker 1 (01:29:39):
Well, their brain develops as well, you know what I mean,
Like they're.

Speaker 2 (01:29:43):
Funnel you become as their life fills up. Here's a condundrum.
As their life fills up with things outside of the house,
they are less mad at you unless you're in some
kind of power struggle with them. And I was lucky
enough to have a kid. There were terrifying times, but

(01:30:05):
we were never really in a power struggle. And the
thing that I learned is that by creating a loving,
open home when things got scary, my kid came to me.
And that is like, if there's one thing I can
say to anybody about parenting, it's that if you can

(01:30:26):
be loving and kind with your child, set limits when
you need to. Yes, Like, they were definitely lines in
the sand, but that loving caring dynamic even if they
hate you, when the shit really hits the fan, when
they come to you for help, that's the best feeling
in the world.

Speaker 1 (01:30:43):
Yeah, So I know you have to go, Rebecca. So
I'm just gonna rattle off a few things. One, the
fact that she is with you and that she is
safe enough to be out as it is gay or
by and that she is sharing that with you says
a lot about the foundation that you have moving forward

(01:31:05):
given you know, in in uh, in line with what Yeah,
but it's a it's an indication that if something starts
to go wrong in her life, like she's in an
abusive relationship or something, that she's a lot more likely
to tell you about it and you can be there
so you can uh check in, you can you know

(01:31:28):
so and I'll tell you watching Gilmore Girls will have
a lot of education, so many lessons. There are so
many lessons on that show, and good for us.

Speaker 2 (01:31:38):
It was Avatar the Last Airbender, Like, there's so many
times that something will be happening and we will refer
back to that show as the lesson. Yeah, but these
are foundational moments.

Speaker 1 (01:31:49):
Yeah. The other thing along the lines of what Rebecca
is saying is you have to accept that bad things
are going to happen to her.

Speaker 2 (01:31:56):
Painful and horrible. So let me just I'll just say
this one start was so crazy. So Eli was in
a car accident. They told their truck it was horrible
and because of the way that the world works now,
there's all these videos from different angles online of the
accident and I would watch them and start sobbing uncontrollably

(01:32:16):
to process them with my kid who's also watching them.
And there's this one that's shot from the angle of
my kid's driver's side. So you see the cars hit
start sobbing, You see my kid freeze for a moment,
and then I see my kid get out of the
car and run to the other car to make sure
that the person in the other car was okay, And

(01:32:37):
then I fucking lost it. Like I'm like, my kid,
they're the right thing. I like, just but it's like
the world that we live in, there's so much In
no other time in human history would I have that
much information about this one incident that was incredibly traumatic,
but getting to experience it as a parent, it was

(01:32:58):
just terrifying. So I will say, like, this is probably
the hardest time to parent in human history because most
of the time when you and I got in trouble,
our parents had no idea what had happened, and there
was no way there was any video evidence that just
gone down.

Speaker 1 (01:33:12):
Yeah yeah, yeah, they might not have even known it happened.
You know, if you dinged your car and they didn't
notice it. So yeah, I mean, if you told your car,
our parents would have done. But anyway, yeah, so bad
things are to happen. Now. You don't want horrible, traumatic
things happening and that's where the guidance comes in, and

(01:33:32):
that's where some of your control comes in. But you
can't overemphasize the avoidance of bad things happening at the
expense of their mental health. And let me just really
drive something home that will hopefully motivate you to address
this head on early. And you're very wise to have

(01:33:55):
this email, and you are saying all the right things,
and you rationally know all the right things in your
fighting something in you, the anxiety. There is a huge
risk to not going to therapy and addressing this, which
is that when you are anxious, it puts your child.

Speaker 2 (01:34:11):
Your kid either more anxious or you make them parent you.

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
Right, so they will be in a bind. They can
either be independent and harm you, or they can stop
growing up and soothe you. You do not want to
put them in that bind. Also, if they accept your
view of the world, which they like, which they likely

(01:34:37):
do because of how close you are, they will believe
that the world is a horrible, scary, threatening, an unworkable
place and they but there's a part of them inside
that really wants to explore that, and they will with
that anxiety when something you know mildly wrong happens in

(01:34:58):
the world, they will retreat and they might never leave
your house.

Speaker 2 (01:35:03):
Yeah, it becomes a confirmation bias that right, Mommy told
me the world is scary, and look how scary it is.

Speaker 1 (01:35:08):
X just happened, right, Or they have to completely reject
your view. You know. This is why you don't teach
abstinence only. This is why the DARE program in the
eighties didn't fucking work. Just say no doesn't work because
people will say, well, you know, I'll give marijuana a try,

(01:35:30):
or I kind of like the way this feels when
we roll around together in the backseat of a car.
This isn't as bad as the way they were saying
it is, So maybe everything they were saying was wrong.
So if you have this point of view and they
say do something that maybe in secret, that they know

(01:35:51):
you would be terrified of, they go, well, that wasn't
so bad, and then they don't think anything you say
is worthwhile, and then you are completely without any ability
to influence them. So it's not just coping with your
anxiety that's important. You know, you could do all the
right things, but your kid will know. So you have

(01:36:14):
to address the anxiety itself so that you don't have
to put effort into suppressing your anxiety. You don't have
to cope. You don't. So the therapy, the awareness, the
corrective experiences with the trauma recovery, whatever is necessary, will
give a vibe to your child.

Speaker 2 (01:36:32):
Get out the way, really let them live life. It's
really really.

Speaker 1 (01:36:38):
Hard to wrap up the email. Louise says, thank you
so much for everything you do. I love all the podcasts,
but I have to admit that I get the most
excited when I see a new reb eckisode. Love Patroon, Louise.

Speaker 2 (01:36:51):
That's really sweet, Louise, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:36:52):
And everyone out there, please take care of yourself because it's.

Speaker 2 (01:36:55):
Really hard out there and we really do care about you. Boston,
Aston ABSTAT, Boston, Boston, ABSTAM Ashton, Boston, Boston, ABSTA, Baston
bas

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