March 18, 2025 • 42 mins
Have you ever stopped to wonder if your difficult boss or colleague is just a challenging personality, or could it be that you yourself are unknowingly contributing to the toxic dynamic?
In our latest episode of the Shedding the Corporate Bitch Podcast, host Bernadette Boas sits down with award-winning author Vicky Oliver to explore the complex world of workplace dynamics. With her book "Bad Bosses, Crazy Co-Workers, and Other Office Idiots" as a guide, Vicky shares her wealth of knowledge on how to effectively combat bullying, confront challenging colleagues, and maintain a learning mindset amidst workplace chaos.
Key Talking Points:
- The Prevalence of Dysfunctional Workplace Personalities:
- Revealing at least 17 distinct dysfunctional work styles.
- From bully bosses to credit snatchers, understanding these categories is crucial for navigating workplace relationships.
- Dealing with Bully Bosses:
- Importance of documenting incidents and addressing the aggression calmly and strategically to earn respect.
- How to handle an outburst, stressing the power of pausing and assessing the situation.
- Self-Reflection and Personal Development:
- The need for self-reflection and personal growth to understand one's role in workplace dynamics.
- Evaluate whether they might unconsciously be contributing to their own challenges.
- Strategies for HR and Leadership:
- The responsibility of HR and company leadership in training and creating an environment where bully behaviors are not tolerated.
- Power of Self-Awareness:
- Listeners are reminded of the potential decision point of whether to remain in a toxic environment or move on, but with the caution that similar personalities exist elsewhere.
Connect with Vicki Oliver:
- LinkedIn: @VickyOliver
- Facebook: @VickyOliver
- Website: VickyOliver.com
Join us in exploring these rich insights and empowering transformations, ensuring that your journey through the corporate world is one of growth and leadership. SUBSCRIBE, FOLLOW, LIKE, and REVIEW this episode on your favorite podcast platform.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Raise your hand.
If you are dealing with a bullyboss or two in the workplace or
in your life, what is theexperience they are creating for
you?
Do you know how to buildbridges with them and anyone
else?
That may be challenging.
I am talking with award-winningauthor of Bad Bosses, crazy
Coworkers and Other OfficeIdiots, vicki Oliver, all about
(00:22):
how to fight off bullies, buildbridges and keep a beginner's
mindset so you never stoplearning.
She'll share with us the manydifferent dysfunctional styles
you could deal with in theworkplace, the reasons people
bully, take credit or simplybehave poorly with you and your
teammates and, lastly, tacticsand tips for how you can deal
(00:45):
with them effectively andproductively to protect your job
, but also your sanity.
So stay with us.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast
that transforms today'smanagers into tomorrow's
powerhouse leaders.
Your host, bernadette Boas,executive coach and author,
brings you into a world wherethe corporate grind meets
personal growth and success ineach and every episode.
With more than 25 years incorporate trenches, bernadette's
own journey from beingdismissed as a tyrant boss to
(01:13):
becoming a sought-afterleadership coach and speaker
illustrates the very essence oftransformation that she now
inspires in others with her tips, strategies and stories, with
their tips, strategies andstories.
So if you're ready to shed thebitches of fear and insecurity,
ditch the imposter syndrome andstep into the role of the
powerhouse leader you were bornto be, this podcast is for you.
Let's do this.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Vicki hi Welcome, welcome, welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Nice to meet you.
Thank you so much for having meon your show.
I really, really appreciate it.
Oh, you're very welcome.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I absolutely love this subject.
You know all around bullybosses and just crazy people in
the workplace, but before we getthere, I would love for you to
share a little bit about you toour viewers and our listeners
about Vicki Oliver.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Okay, thank you so much.
So my name is Vicki Oliver.
I am a native New Yorker.
I started my first career.
I was in advertising business,and in the advertising business
there are lots of bad bosses,crazy co-workers and other
office idiots.
And I was working, you know,first I started as a
receptionist and gradually Ikind of climbed up.
(02:27):
First I started as areceptionist and gradually I
kind of climbed up and at onepoint I was both looking for a
job but also hiring people andthey would roll in and they knew
nothing about, like the adagency where I was working.
They didn't know who the clientswere, they didn't know who my
boss was and they didn't knowanything about me for sure,
right.
And they would roll in like 10minutes late and I would think,
oh my God, I am going to writethe book about job hunting one
(02:48):
day, you know, because, buddy,you are blowing it.
So that's how I started, like Ijust would have these ideas
about job hunting and I writethem down.
And then I started writingarticles about job hunting, you
know, and then, in the course ofdeveloping my first book, which
was all about job hunting, Igave people my email address and
(03:10):
I said Look, I have answered301 answers for you, but maybe
there's another one out there.
Maybe there's some question youhave that I didn't address.
If you have a question and Ididn't address it right to me
and that research led to thisbook Bad Bosses, crazy Coworkers
and Other Office Idiots BecauseI just heard from people all
(03:30):
around the country what wasgoing on with them.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Wow, well, and I wish you'd reach out to me, because
I would have given you a bookworth.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Everyone says that to me.
They were like where were youwhen this guy was bullying me?
Where were you?
But I did.
I did a lot of research, I meta lot of people that way.
You know, people emailed me andthat was like the basis of the
book.
Of course, having been in theadvertising business myself, I'm
very familiar with bullies.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So, of all that research you did, what was the
most eye-opening aspect that youcame across?
That you weren't necessarilyexpecting, because we take a lot
for granted when we say that wehave a bully boss.
So what was the most kind oflike, you know, profound
observation or learning?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Okay.
So I believe that my profoundlearning was that I learned that
the grass is not greener thereis always a bully somewhere else
.
So my advice in the book is tolearn how to deal with bullies
so that you don't have to leaveyour job, because if you do
leave your job, you're justgoing to encounter a different
(04:43):
bully somewhere else.
That was my learning.
They're everywhere, you know,they're men and women, right,
and you just have to be able tosort of confront the beast.
You can't run.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Right, you write about three different types and
I'm sure there's more, becauseeven I came up with a couple of
more but three different typesof different co-workers and
bosses.
Could you explain those to?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
us.
First of all, I think there Imay be wrong, but I think there
are about 17 different types inthe book.
So, for example, there's likesort of the devil wears product
kind of person that's justalways looking over your
shoulder and they need to know,like, what are you doing?
Like who's who's, where's themeeting, what are you talking
about?
That type of personality.
And then there's anotherpersonality that's I call like
(05:31):
the wizard of oz, where theperson is never there and that
is a problem in its own right,like if you need approvals and
you can't find the person andmaybe they're managing like
multiple offices and there.
And then there's like a chapteron bullying, right, and there's
the bully.
And so there's all differentkinds of people.
You know, there's sleazeballs,there are people who lie to you,
like they're all kinds ofpeople.
(05:52):
So really, I believe that youhave to learn how to deal with
the person, and the idea of thebook for me was a thesaurus of
different personalityproblematic, problematical and
then if you encounter thatperson, right, you look up what
to do, you follow these tacticsand then you put the book away
(06:14):
until the next person drives youcrazy Five minutes later To be
able to have like a resourcelike that where you could say,
well, okay, this person isactually driving me crazy, what
do I do?
Try it.
There's several tactics.
Try them.
Okay, now put it away.
You don't want that book lyingon your desk.
Probably you mentioned 17,.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
And you also talk about the fact that you have to
identify the problem, andimmediately.
What I find is immediately,people just lump it under a
bully boss or a bad boss.
However, do you find it'sreally important to distinguish
the exact problem that you mightbe having with it?
(06:56):
You approach it properly,because not everyone is going to
be solved by the same answer.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Exactly.
I mean, there are fully bosses,like, for example, who take
credit for your good work.
You know and that is like aseparate chapter in the book you
know that I call the creditsnatcher, right, and you know
there are people that yell atyou in the hallway and there are
people that yell at you behindclosed doors.
I mean there are differentproblematical types, but I think
(07:26):
it's fairly easy to just likego through the book and like
find oh yeah, this is the guy orwoman that I work for and this
is what I'm going to try.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Which one do you find , and if it's not just one, but
which one creates the biggestnegative impact on a team, on a
culture?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yeah, so this is another theory of the book.
Like, a boss that might botherme is not the same boss that
might bother you.
All right, and that is becauseyou know.
I have my background, how Igrew up, my parents or whatever.
Everybody comes to an officeplace with their own baggage.
(08:11):
I have a very controllingmother, so a boss for me that's
extremely controlling is likethe worst person for me to work
for.
But somebody else maybe theyneed that control, Right, Right.
So it just depends, I think, onyour individual upbringing and
(08:33):
what you yourself are bringing.
And somebody that drives mecrazy is not the same person
necessarily that drives youcrazy.
Yes, you know some people, ifthey have bullies as bosses,
they just shrug it off.
You know, some people itdoesn't really bother them that
much, you know, because theyhave a strong internal sense of
(08:54):
like approval.
They don't need approval fromsomebody else.
Maybe somebody else walksthrough a hallway and somebody's
yelling at them but they say,well, you know what he's yelling
at me, but he doesn't reallyneed it, you know, and it like
just falls off of them.
But another person, maybe ifthey grew up with like screamers
and their family, maybe it'smuch, much, much, much worse.
(09:15):
You know to be called out likethat.
So a third of the book isdevoted to figuring out if you
are the problem.
You know are you the problem,Because if you keep having the
same issues from job to job tojob, you know, maybe it's you
who needs to change.
So it's all about diagnosis.
(09:36):
For sure, and I'm not a shrink,I'm not a psychologist, but I
just have strong opinions on howto deal with difficult people.
That's really what it is.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Well, and at the same time, it's diagnosis, but it's
also, from what I can tell, it'salso just self-awareness,
really understanding theexperience you're creating with
those around you.
Would that be an accurate?
Speaker 3 (09:59):
statement, I think is like a pearl of wisdom, which
is, if you walk into a room,anybody at any given time, if
you walk into a room, like, halfthe people are going to like
you and half of the people arenot going to like you.
So a lot of it has to do withthings you cannot control how
(10:21):
you look like, how you talkthese types of things.
You cannot control how you looklike, how you talk these types
of things.
Somebody you might walk into aroom and, before you know it,
your boss, your new boss,doesn't like you for nothing you
have done.
So I try to analyze that alittle bit too and just to say,
like, maybe the person doesn'tlike you.
You can make it better, youknow, with that person.
(10:43):
You can improve yourrelationship with that person.
It may not be fantastic, butyou can make it better.
You know, with that person, youcan improve your relationship
with that person.
It may not be fantastic, butyou can make it better.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Going back, to just you know overall, what is that
impact that these type ofdysfunctions has on a team and
culture?
What have you seen?
Speaker 3 (11:02):
People don't want to confront the boss right, because
he's a screamer.
They're scared of him.
People would rather make it upas they go along because they're
scared of him.
People might lie as a reactionto dealing with this horrible
person that they don't want todeal with.
Other people may cower in theircorners.
(11:26):
You know there's a lot ofnegative behaviors that happen
as a result of working with orfor somebody who's a bully.
We should also, if we have time, talk about how that person got
to that position of power,because I feel like that's kind
of an important thing about it.
Absolutely Like the guy orwoman they have talents or they
(11:48):
wouldn't be in that position,and it's probably not a secret
to the people in human resourcesthat that person is a bully.
So it's dangerous a little bitto confront head on that person.
But why?
Because they're there for areason.
(12:11):
Maybe they bring in you knowall the rain, all the new
business, right.
Maybe they've worked there for20 years and they know all the
players and all the clients.
Let's say you know they arevery powerful or they would not
be able to get away with all thebullying.
So it's very difficult to go upagainst that person one on one
and you have to be very carefulabout it.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
At the same time, though, isn't there a degree
because we talk so much aboutaccountability within, you know,
the work environment, the homeenvironment, and isn't there an
obligation of responsibility,though, to decide the fact that
somebody generates a great dealfor the business and they bring
(12:57):
in all these new opportunitiesand address the fact that that
individual, regardless of theirbehavior?
Yes, it's unacceptable, and wehave to make, we have to kind of
model, what we believe to be,you know, real leadership, and
that wouldn't be it, and sosomething would have to be done.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I'd say eventually yes, but let's say you are a new
employee, right, and you getinto the situation, and then
there's somebody who's bullyingyou, right?
You don't really know all thehistory of that person, you
don't know the network ofalliances that exist there and
(13:41):
you don't really have any poweryourself either, because you've
just come in.
So I think that this is true,that companies need to be better
at moderating bullying behavior.
That's true.
But I also believe that it'svery difficult for somebody to
change unless they themselveswant to change.
(14:02):
You can change yourself, but Ido not think that you can change
another human being, right.
I agree, I don't think you can.
So you know, are you going toleave the job because this guy
or woman is driving you crazy?
No, you're not going to leavethe job.
You are going to learn how todeal with that bully and wrestle
with it and you are going toget better at it.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
So you're never saying that you're going to
accept that behavior.
You're saying to anyone up anddown the food chain learn
tactics and strategies forworking with that type of
individual, and even with alittle bit of maybe some help
and self-awareness for hopingthat they change.
(14:44):
You can't control that.
They'll change.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
You will never be able to control them and you
will not be able to change them,but I do believe that you can
make that bully respect you andin that way, I think that he or
she will treat you better if herespects you, and so some of my
tips are really about that aboutgaining the respect and not
(15:09):
cowering.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Before we get there, though, why would you say an
individual is a bully, or is agrumpy martyr or, you know, or
is a credit snatcher?
Why do they behave in that andthose dysfunctional manners?
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Well, I think bullies in particular, I think that
there's a lot of resonance withbeing a childhood bully, like
they grew up, like theplayground bully, and I feel
like a lot of times they theydid that as kids, you know, and
it wasn't checked.
And then they get into theworkplace and it's not checked
(15:53):
and you know they.
They are very talented, as Isaid, in terms of other things,
you know, getting the job done,task oriented, they get the
stuff done and things weredifferent 10 years ago, like
people would were different 10years ago, like people would
overlook it 10 years ago.
But maybe that man or woman isstill there, right, and I think
that times have changed right,and we're not as tolerant
(16:16):
towards bullying.
But, believe me, it is stillout there.
We may hate it or whatever, butit's still there.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I absolutely agree with you and you're speaking my
entire story.
I mean, I was kept around for avery long time because I was a
massive producer, but mybehavior and my bully style of
leadership eventually had meseeing the door.
So the self-awareness isabsolutely key and the
(16:48):
self-assessment is absolutelykey which we'll get to.
How can someone self-assess orreally become aware, even on
their own, let alone with someprofessional support?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Right.
So, first of all, I think thatperformance reviews are sort of
a key to it, or maybe even ithappens before a performance
review.
A lot of times, something willhappen like there'll be a person
who complains about a bully,and it may be like a solitary
incident, like somebody justsort of.
(17:23):
I do not recommend doing this,by the way, okay, but they come
in, they complain to somebody athuman resources.
Maybe that person like rushesup to your boss and says like,
oh, like she's a bully, likeso-and-so complained, right.
I think that it's so critical tonot just tamp down the
(17:43):
criticism.
I think we're all trying totamp down criticism.
Like Dale Carnegie said thatpeople hate to be criticized,
and I think that that is a trueinsight into human nature, right
, what happens when someonecriticizes you?
You're like no, it's not true.
It's not true, right, and youknow all your resources go to
proving it's not true and youbandy about it and you get, like
(18:04):
the emails and the people tocome in and support you and all
this stuff.
Right, and you save your job,right, you save it.
But instead of celebratingafter you've saved your job, but
instead of celebrating afteryou've saved your job, that's
the time to reflect and say wasthat person secretly right?
Did I bully them?
Did I make them cower in acorner?
(18:25):
Did I make her cry?
I think it's important to sortof say, not just I saved my job,
I saved my skin, but like, whatdid I learn from this
interaction and can I dosomething to dampen it a little
bit?
Dampen it down, don't be so inyour face, don't be so
aggressive, don't be so hostile.
So yeah, I think a lot of timesthere is like a singular
(18:48):
complaint and we people dampenit down and then we don't think
about it because we got throughthe crisis.
Of course, professional helptoo.
You know there's seeing careercoaches and going to
psychiatrists and shrinks, andyou know I think that's fine,
that's all good, as long as youknow you're trying to.
(19:08):
One is trying to improveoneself.
(19:41):
What are some tactics andstrategies someone can use to
address some of these peoplespecifically?
You know bully bosses, but evensome of the other ones, because
a boss's pet is when you do itthat matters, right?
I mean, I've walked in hallwaysin advertising and been yelled
at right by a boss, right there,in front of every single person
, and I'm happy to say I've saidnothing.
Because just because somebodyis yelling at you doesn't make
them right.
Loudness does not equal rightand I think, in the heat of the
(20:03):
moment, if you can sort of havethe equanimity to step back and
say I am not going to yell atthis guy right now, but I will
deal with it later.
I think that is the criticalmoment.
Pausing, yeah, pause, step back.
(20:24):
If you're a lady, run to theladies room, whatever the men's
room.
If you're a man, get out ofthere, get out of the heated
situation, you know, and don'temote.
Don't emote right in the moment, because if you do, if you're
like, hey, buddy, I don't wantto be yelled at you.
Know, I'm like, whatever, you'regoing to lose your job, I'm
(20:49):
telling you you are.
So if you want to keep your job, you need to get out of the
situation.
Take a walk around the block,you know, just leave the
premises, do something and calmyourself down.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Well, isn't it also?
You're wanting to to kind ofprevent feeding the beast?
If, all of a sudden, you'reresponding to some some
hostility with hostility, that'sjust ramping everything up and
that's not going to solveanything, that's not going to
have a happy ending for anyoneor anything.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
It really isn't and neither is.
I'm just going to say thisneither is bursting into tears
going to help you either,because that's considered really
unprofessional and people aregoing to feel bizarre being
around you.
So you can't cry and you can'tyell right Fight or flight.
Fight or flight.
I would say flee, flee thesituation.
(21:39):
Okay, then, in quietness, youwant to start developing a
little list and you want to sayon such and such a day, peter
screamed his head off at me forno reason in the hallway.
He said blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
And I walked very calmly by andyou're going to keep a document
(22:02):
of these incidents that happen.
That is what my recommendationis to do.
This is a long, long haul, butI think you should do it anyway,
because a he's probablybullying other people too.
It's probably not just you.
Okay, we'll get into that in aminute, but but I would say,
keep a little list and then, ina very calm moment maybe it's
(22:24):
two weeks later you're going togo in like wrap on his door, ask
if you can talk to him for afew minutes.
If he says, okay, come on in,you know, then you close the
door and you say you know, Ireally feel like you are
bullying me and I don't like it.
I think it's important to callout the aggression and he will
(22:46):
probably deny it.
Right, he will deny it, butyou're going to be very calm and
say well, no, as a matter offact, on December 2nd you know
you you said this, and December5th you said that and I feel
like you're targeting me, you'resingling me out, and I want to
work with you so that we don'thave this situation between us
(23:08):
and sometimes just that willease the situation, because he's
going to understand that youare onto him going to understand
that you are onto him.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Sometimes that alone will help.
Now, the two weeks is that?
Because one, you don't want toassume that that first outburst
was a pattern.
It could have just been thatguys or girls having a bad day,
a bad moment, and they happen tolash out in front of everybody.
But yet if you wait to see ifthere's a pattern and it is a
(23:39):
target on you, then you want tobe able to go and address it and
that's why the couple of weeksyou want to wait until you build
that pattern.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
I think that's a good idea, but I also think it also
has to do with having proofpoints, in case you need to
bring this to somebody else.
You need to show a pattern.
It can't just be an isolatedincident, but also in a week, in
two weeks, maybe two days,whatever.
People calm down a lot, youknow.
(24:10):
Maybe, maybe after the outburst, you know he's going to stop by
and say, hey, you know, I'mreally sorry about that, I
didn't mean to do that, forgiveme or whatever.
In which case you should,because, well, part of my theory
is it's better to be flexibleand let things bounce off of you
and realize people have baddays and be that kind of a
(24:31):
person where you know you'rejust there to solve problems.
That's the other, that's theother thing.
It's like you're not there tocreate a problem, all right.
So when you one reason I saydon't go to human resources
immediately is because if you goto human resources, then you
are going to be looked at as theproblem, even though it's his
problem, you're going to belooked at as a problem, right?
(24:52):
So you need a lot of proofpoints, I'd say, before going to
anybody super official in yourcompany.
It can't just be one or twotimes.
It has to be a real pattern.
All the more reason to you knowremain calm on the outside.
You can broil on the inside,but calm on the outside, you
know, and just keep a record ofwhat is going on.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
And just keep a record of what is going on.
Yeah, yeah, what would you tellsomeone that I guess yelling at
somebody is the same, or hasthe same degree of emotion, as
being in a room full of people,maybe sitting at the table, and
someone demeans you or degradeyou or insults you.
(25:38):
The yelling is one thing, butthen the words people might use
is a whole different situation.
How would you handle that?
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Well, I think it's in terms of a tactic.
I think it's a little bitsimilar in that, let's say,
somebody's always interruptingyou.
Every time you open your mouthin a big group meeting,
somebody's like cutting you offand interrupting you.
I think it's kind of the sametactic that you use, which is to
(26:11):
wait and address it with thatperson in a calm moment.
Every time I open my mouth, Ifeel like you're cutting me off.
Why, why is that happening?
I feel like I'm not allowed tospeak in the meeting.
Is that okay for me to speak?
I think you have to call it out,but gently, gently, Another way
(26:32):
.
I mean with that specificallyyou know there's other tactics,
like, for example, if you canget yourself into the situation
where you are the note taker inthe meeting, like if you're
taking the minutes of themeeting, you can sort of exact
your revenge, if you will, bygetting your ideas into the,
into those notes.
You know if you were cut off,but you're the note, you're the
(26:54):
official note taker notes.
You know if you were cut off,but you're the note, you're the
official note taker, you knowyou can put it in.
I so and so had you know anidea that we didn't have time to
talk about it, but you know youcan insert it if that's the
problem that your ideas aren'tgetting out, because it keeps
like quashing down.
But in terms of like looking inthe mirror and saying, well, am
(27:14):
I the problem?
A lot depends on the protocolof the particular company.
You know who is allowed tospeak in those meetings.
You know what level are you at.
Are you monopolizing themeeting by always like raising
your hand and having an idea?
Are you talking over people?
So there's a lot about that too, like self-analysis.
(27:35):
But I would say, yes, it's veryannoying to be interrupted all
the time.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
I think that's a good point, that you don't want to
automatically assume it's theother person who is improper in
their behavior.
You first have to kind ofassess yourself to say, well,
wait a minute, am I provokingthem to behave a certain way
based on my own performance orbehavior?
(27:59):
And then say, okay, if I assessthat no, it's not me, that this
is happening for no reason.
I think that's a very greatpoint, because automatically we
always tend to think that it'ssomebody else and not ourselves,
right?
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Exactly.
I think also this is not a tipI've written about, but I think
also if you have a buddy in theoffice and you trust the person
and you can ask the other personlike let's honestly assess each
other in these meetings and youcan give feedback to like a
(28:41):
one-on-one buddy system, thatcould be a way of correcting if
your buddy says what I think youwere just trying to talk too
much, you know, and he wasn'table to get his thoughts out and
then you realize, oh, it's myproblem, okay, I can work on it.
You can work on your ownproblems, but you can't change
other people.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, Now and with all of this, you are not in any
way saying that anyone shouldaccept the behavior, but at the
same time, you just need tolearn how to deal with it.
Are you also saying that youcould have a decision point
where it's not worth the job andit's not worth the mental
(29:23):
strain and the stress, andtherefore you have a decision
point that you're in control of?
As far as do I stay in thistype of culture or do I leave
this culture?
Would that be a fair assessment?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Yes, but my only point is I think that is
absolutely true.
But my only point is if you'regoing to stay in your same field
, you're going to encounter thesame personality types elsewhere
.
Now, maybe that bully isn't asterrible as the one that you're
currently working with.
Right, but you also have otherfactors.
(29:59):
When you go to a new place, youknow you have to learn the
culture all over again.
You have to prove yourself allover again.
You have to work super hard inthe beginning, all over again,
until you know all the peopleand you understand all the tasks
.
And it's, you know, kind of a.
It's a better tactic probably tostay where you are, deal with
this bully and rise in your owncompany, rather than hopping,
(30:23):
hopping, hopping, hopping,hopping I mean over time, over
time.
I think it's better to staysomeplace, like for a while, and
get the experience there andget the money and get promoted.
So, yes, there are certainsituations, like, for example, I
think if you're feelingsexually harassed at your
company, then I think probablyyou may want to leave.
(30:47):
You may want to leave or youmay force the other person to
leave.
Okay, that's a situation whereit is intolerable to be there
being sexually harassed.
It's just horrible and youshould get out of there and
probably the situation won'texist.
You know that way in anothercompany.
But if it's just like your sortof backyard bully that's
(31:09):
bullying you, I think you shouldtry to deal with him or her
first before deciding to leave.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
I want to kind of sum this up, but I want to break it
down into two different groups.
What would you say to HRleaders and like the powers to
be when it comes to what theyshould be doing in regards to
(31:37):
handling these dysfunctionaltype of individuals?
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Right.
So I think that you knowtraining is always a good idea,
right?
I mean, I know I've sat throughsexual harassment seminars and
you know, and like it's good tosort of teach people what is
acceptable behavior and whatisn't.
As, as rudimentary as thatsounds, I think that we didn't
(32:02):
learn it in college, right?
We didn't learn it in gradschool.
Like we need to learn how tobehave with other people in the
office, Like we need to learnhow to behave with other people
in the office.
So I think all of those typesof seminars are great.
The human resources people haveto decide whether the bullying,
let's say, has risen to thelevel of.
Is it a warning that you'regoing to give this person?
(32:24):
You know, is it?
Is it going to be that he'ssuspended or are you going to
kick him out?
Like how bad is it that he'ssuspended?
Are you going to kick him out?
Like how bad is it?
You know there's pros and cons,you know, versus like all the
money he's bringing in or theclients or whatever it is that's
keeping him there.
They have to, you know thatversus the potential lawsuits.
You know they have to decidethese things.
But to people who are not in HR.
(32:46):
I would say HR should beprobably your last resource.
I think your first resource isyourself going to the person
calling out in a calm moment,calling out the aggression.
Right, if it happens again, goback, call it out again, like
you have to show the bully thatyou're not frightened of this
person.
(33:06):
Right, you recognize it andyou're calling it out, and
sometimes that alone will makethe problem disappear from your
standpoint, which is what we'retalking about.
Right, then you may want totalk to other people in your
company.
You might want to.
This guy or woman has probablybullied lots of people and there
are lots of people who have thescars inside the scars, like to
(33:27):
talk about it, and you are notalone.
You are not alone.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
You are not alone, right?
The only thing I need to kindof challenge and would love your
thought on is I would thinkthat the business individual,
the business team, shouldpartner with HR, not to report,
but more so get advice, getcoaching on how they could
approach the situation withmaybe a statement of I'm not
(33:59):
formally placing a complaint forHR to act on.
You're my partner and I wantsome guidance and some kind of
overall coaching from you as tohow to handle something, and
some kind of overall coachingfrom you as to how to handle
something.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Would you not recommend that?
I think it's a great idea, butI think that the minute you go
in there, you kind of arelodging a complaint.
Whether you're putting it inwriting or not, I think you
still are lodged.
Because the thing is, what isthe HR person going to do?
They're not going to go to theperson and say we received four
(34:38):
complaints about your bullying.
Well, what's the first question?
Who did it?
Who complained?
Right?
And then it's like you know,you're not just being like the
target, but now you're like atattletale, You're like the
whistleblower.
You know, I think it's dangerous.
I have to be honest, I thinkit's.
It sounds good, but I thinkit's dangerous to go in and
(35:00):
actually make the complaintwithout a lot of like proof
points that you have.
I really do.
I mean, you don't want thatperson to distrust you.
That is going to have analienating impact, I believe, on
the bully.
And now, now you know, because,as I say, this person is a
(35:24):
person in power and they can dothings to you.
They can move you into a slowerdepartment.
Maybe that's good, but they canmove you, you.
They can move you into a slowerdepartment.
Maybe that's good, but they canmove you away.
They can give you terribleassignments.
There's lots of things they cando if they don't trust you and
they want to get rid of you.
And then you go into humanresources.
(35:44):
I believe you're vulnerable tothat because the human resources
person who's doing their job,they're going to to, maybe not
in front of you, but they'regoing to write it down and now
it's on the record.
You know.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Yeah, ok, all right.
Would you tell individuals thatare dealing with this what they
could do to get to know or todeal with these type of
dysfunctional behaviors?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I would say realize when something is somebody
else's problem, right, maybe youworked on a report for three
weeks, right, and you hand it toyour boss and he grunts and he
doesn't say thank you, or shedoesn't say thank you, you know,
(36:39):
and they just like walk on by,right, and then they never get
back to you with any kind offeedback or whatever.
You know you're going to besitting there probably thinking
like, what did I do wrong?
What did I do wrong?
You know, why don't I, whydoesn't this person give me any
feedback, or whatever.
But like, maybe that person isgetting a divorce from his wife,
you know, right, maybe hetotaled the car over the weekend
(37:00):
.
I mean, there's stuff going onin people's personal life that
you don't know about, andsometimes their lack of respect
or response is something youcouldn't possibly know anything
about.
It's their problem.
And I think, just like theself-talk of sometimes saying
you know what?
This is his problem, that hedidn't get back to me on this
(37:24):
fantastic report that I wrote,and like pat yourself on the
back, yeah and just, I guessthat would be one thing.
And then the second is just, Imentioned it before, but just to
say you are there to solveproblems.
Everybody in the whole companyis there to solve problems, not
to create them.
So when somebody is a problemlike a bully, you want to kind
(37:47):
of tamp it down.
You don't want to escalate it.
That would be my first thought.
You don't want to escalate it?
That would be my first thought.
Like, don't escalate stuff,tamp it down and just solve the
work problems that you're thereto solve.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, this has been fabulous.
We could talk about thissubject around don't bully me
ever and I want to mention toeveryone you can dive into the
subject and get all thosetactics and strategies based on
the 17 different dysfunctionalstyles that she had mentioned,
tinycc forward.
(38:19):
Slash bad bosses, crazy workers, and take advantage of really
digging in, identifying thespecific problem you're having
and then finding the tacticsthat she's promoting.
(38:40):
Also, be sure to follow her.
Follow Vicki on LinkedIn andFacebook, just simply at Vicki
Oliver.
You'll find her very easily,and then, if you want to learn
more about Vicki and the workthat she does and the books that
she has, go to VickiOlivercom.
Vicki.
This has been fabulous, sofabulous.
(39:00):
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Thanks so much for having me.
I love you know talking aboutthis important topic with you,
and I very appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
You're very welcome topic with you and I very
appreciate it.
You're very welcome.
What a powerhouse and apowerful conversation with Vicki
Oliver.
I don't know about you, but wecan never talk enough about how
to deal with dysfunctionalpersonalities in the workplace,
whether they are bullies or, asshe said, they might be grumpy
(39:29):
martyrs, bosses, pets, creditsnatchers and a number of others
.
As a matter of fact, shementioned that there's 17
different styles that you mightbe dealing with in the workplace
that could cause you challenges.
So then she went on to reallyget into what you need to do in
order to manage them, buildbridges with them, confront them
(39:54):
, but in a way that won't hurtyou but will just support your
cause in you not changing themin any way, shape or form, but
you being able to deal with them, manage them or at least
survive with them in yourcurrent position.
So it was a powerfulconversation, one that
(40:16):
definitely, as I mentioned,needs to be talked about time
and time again because, as weall know, and as Vicki stated,
life's not greener somewhereelse.
And so the choice to leave yourposition thinking that you're
going to find a better culture,a better set of personalities in
(40:37):
another company that could justget you into more trouble than
you already have, and so in heradvice and her tips, she's
suggesting that you learn how tomanage, deal with, the various
dysfunctional personalities thatyou have within any workplace.
So I'd be very interested tohear your thoughts and ideas
(41:01):
around this subject.
So feel free to link in with meat BernadetteBose on LinkedIn
and send me a direct message.
But should you need somespecific guidance and support
and handholding through adifficult situation with an
employee, a boss or someone else, then don't hesitate to reach
(41:22):
out and let's talk about it.
You can go tocoachmebernadettecom forward
slash discovery call and we canhave a 30-minute conversation,
and I can leave you with sometips and strategies as well for
you to then act on to create abetter environment for yourself,
the team and the business as awhole.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand I'll look forward to having
(41:44):
you for another episode ofShedding the Corporate Bitch.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Bye.
Thank you for tuning intotoday's episode of Shedding the
Corporate Bitch.
Every journey taken together isanother step towards unleashing
the powerhouse leader withinyou.
Don't miss any of our weeklyepisodes.
Subscribe to our podcast onApple Podcasts, spotify or
wherever you love to listen.
And, for those who thrive onvisual content, catch us on our
Shedding the Bitch YouTubechannel.
(42:08):
Want to dive deeper withBernadette on becoming a
powerhouse leader?
Visit balloffirecoachingcom tolearn more about how she helps
professionals, hr executives andteam leaders elevate overall
team performance.
You've been listening toShedding the Corporate Bitch
with Bernadette Boas.
Until next time, keep shedding,keep growing and keep leading.
Raise your hand.
If you are dealing with a bullyboss or two in the workplace or
in your life, what is theexperience they are creating for
you?
Do you know how to buildbridges with them and anyone
else?
That may be challenging.
I am talking with award-winningauthor of Bad Bosses, crazy
Coworkers and Other OfficeIdiots, vicki Oliver, all about
(00:22):
how to fight off bullies, buildbridges and keep a beginner's
mindset so you never stoplearning.
She'll share with us the manydifferent dysfunctional styles
you could deal with in theworkplace, the reasons people
bully, take credit or simplybehave poorly with you and your
teammates and, lastly, tacticsand tips for how you can deal
(00:45):
with them effectively andproductively to protect your job
, but also your sanity.
So stay with us.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast
that transforms today'smanagers into tomorrow's
powerhouse leaders.
Your host, bernadette Boas,executive coach and author,
brings you into a world wherethe corporate grind meets
personal growth and success ineach and every episode.
With more than 25 years incorporate trenches, bernadette's
own journey from beingdismissed as a tyrant boss to
(01:13):
becoming a sought-afterleadership coach and speaker
illustrates the very essence oftransformation that she now
inspires in others with her tips, strategies and stories, with
their tips, strategies andstories.
So if you're ready to shed thebitches of fear and insecurity,
ditch the imposter syndrome andstep into the role of the
powerhouse leader you were bornto be, this podcast is for you.
Let's do this.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Vicki hi Welcome, welcome, welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Nice to meet you.
Thank you so much for having meon your show.
I really, really appreciate it.
Oh, you're very welcome.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I absolutely love this subject.
You know all around bullybosses and just crazy people in
the workplace, but before we getthere, I would love for you to
share a little bit about you toour viewers and our listeners
about Vicki Oliver.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Okay, thank you so much.
So my name is Vicki Oliver.
I am a native New Yorker.
I started my first career.
I was in advertising business,and in the advertising business
there are lots of bad bosses,crazy co-workers and other
office idiots.
And I was working, you know,first I started as a
receptionist and gradually Ikind of climbed up.
(02:27):
First I started as areceptionist and gradually I
kind of climbed up and at onepoint I was both looking for a
job but also hiring people andthey would roll in and they knew
nothing about, like the adagency where I was working.
They didn't know who the clientswere, they didn't know who my
boss was and they didn't knowanything about me for sure,
right.
And they would roll in like 10minutes late and I would think,
oh my God, I am going to writethe book about job hunting one
(02:48):
day, you know, because, buddy,you are blowing it.
So that's how I started, like Ijust would have these ideas
about job hunting and I writethem down.
And then I started writingarticles about job hunting, you
know, and then, in the course ofdeveloping my first book, which
was all about job hunting, Igave people my email address and
(03:10):
I said Look, I have answered301 answers for you, but maybe
there's another one out there.
Maybe there's some question youhave that I didn't address.
If you have a question and Ididn't address it right to me
and that research led to thisbook Bad Bosses, crazy Coworkers
and Other Office Idiots BecauseI just heard from people all
(03:30):
around the country what wasgoing on with them.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Wow, well, and I wish you'd reach out to me, because
I would have given you a bookworth.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Everyone says that to me.
They were like where were youwhen this guy was bullying me?
Where were you?
But I did.
I did a lot of research, I meta lot of people that way.
You know, people emailed me andthat was like the basis of the
book.
Of course, having been in theadvertising business myself, I'm
very familiar with bullies.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So, of all that research you did, what was the
most eye-opening aspect that youcame across?
That you weren't necessarilyexpecting, because we take a lot
for granted when we say that wehave a bully boss.
So what was the most kind oflike, you know, profound
observation or learning?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Okay.
So I believe that my profoundlearning was that I learned that
the grass is not greener thereis always a bully somewhere else
.
So my advice in the book is tolearn how to deal with bullies
so that you don't have to leaveyour job, because if you do
leave your job, you're justgoing to encounter a different
(04:43):
bully somewhere else.
That was my learning.
They're everywhere, you know,they're men and women, right,
and you just have to be able tosort of confront the beast.
You can't run.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Right, you write about three different types and
I'm sure there's more, becauseeven I came up with a couple of
more but three different typesof different co-workers and
bosses.
Could you explain those to?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
us.
First of all, I think there Imay be wrong, but I think there
are about 17 different types inthe book.
So, for example, there's likesort of the devil wears product
kind of person that's justalways looking over your
shoulder and they need to know,like, what are you doing?
Like who's who's, where's themeeting, what are you talking
about?
That type of personality.
And then there's anotherpersonality that's I call like
(05:31):
the wizard of oz, where theperson is never there and that
is a problem in its own right,like if you need approvals and
you can't find the person andmaybe they're managing like
multiple offices and there.
And then there's like a chapteron bullying, right, and there's
the bully.
And so there's all differentkinds of people.
You know, there's sleazeballs,there are people who lie to you,
like they're all kinds ofpeople.
(05:52):
So really, I believe that youhave to learn how to deal with
the person, and the idea of thebook for me was a thesaurus of
different personalityproblematic, problematical and
then if you encounter thatperson, right, you look up what
to do, you follow these tacticsand then you put the book away
(06:14):
until the next person drives youcrazy Five minutes later To be
able to have like a resourcelike that where you could say,
well, okay, this person isactually driving me crazy, what
do I do?
Try it.
There's several tactics.
Try them.
Okay, now put it away.
You don't want that book lyingon your desk.
Probably you mentioned 17,.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
And you also talk about the fact that you have to
identify the problem, andimmediately.
What I find is immediately,people just lump it under a
bully boss or a bad boss.
However, do you find it'sreally important to distinguish
the exact problem that you mightbe having with it?
(06:56):
You approach it properly,because not everyone is going to
be solved by the same answer.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Exactly.
I mean, there are fully bosses,like, for example, who take
credit for your good work.
You know and that is like aseparate chapter in the book you
know that I call the creditsnatcher, right, and you know
there are people that yell atyou in the hallway and there are
people that yell at you behindclosed doors.
I mean there are differentproblematical types, but I think
(07:26):
it's fairly easy to just likego through the book and like
find oh yeah, this is the guy orwoman that I work for and this
is what I'm going to try.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Which one do you find , and if it's not just one, but
which one creates the biggestnegative impact on a team, on a
culture?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yeah, so this is another theory of the book.
Like, a boss that might botherme is not the same boss that
might bother you.
All right, and that is becauseyou know.
I have my background, how Igrew up, my parents or whatever.
Everybody comes to an officeplace with their own baggage.
(08:11):
I have a very controllingmother, so a boss for me that's
extremely controlling is likethe worst person for me to work
for.
But somebody else maybe theyneed that control, Right, Right.
So it just depends, I think, onyour individual upbringing and
(08:33):
what you yourself are bringing.
And somebody that drives mecrazy is not the same person
necessarily that drives youcrazy.
Yes, you know some people, ifthey have bullies as bosses,
they just shrug it off.
You know, some people itdoesn't really bother them that
much, you know, because theyhave a strong internal sense of
(08:54):
like approval.
They don't need approval fromsomebody else.
Maybe somebody else walksthrough a hallway and somebody's
yelling at them but they say,well, you know what he's yelling
at me, but he doesn't reallyneed it, you know, and it like
just falls off of them.
But another person, maybe ifthey grew up with like screamers
and their family, maybe it'smuch, much, much, much worse.
(09:15):
You know to be called out likethat.
So a third of the book isdevoted to figuring out if you
are the problem.
You know are you the problem,Because if you keep having the
same issues from job to job tojob, you know, maybe it's you
who needs to change.
So it's all about diagnosis.
(09:36):
For sure, and I'm not a shrink,I'm not a psychologist, but I
just have strong opinions on howto deal with difficult people.
That's really what it is.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Well, and at the same time, it's diagnosis, but it's
also, from what I can tell, it'salso just self-awareness,
really understanding theexperience you're creating with
those around you.
Would that be an accurate?
Speaker 3 (09:59):
statement, I think is like a pearl of wisdom, which
is, if you walk into a room,anybody at any given time, if
you walk into a room, like, halfthe people are going to like
you and half of the people arenot going to like you.
So a lot of it has to do withthings you cannot control how
(10:21):
you look like, how you talkthese types of things.
You cannot control how you looklike, how you talk these types
of things.
Somebody you might walk into aroom and, before you know it,
your boss, your new boss,doesn't like you for nothing you
have done.
So I try to analyze that alittle bit too and just to say,
like, maybe the person doesn'tlike you.
You can make it better, youknow, with that person.
(10:43):
You can improve yourrelationship with that person.
It may not be fantastic, butyou can make it better.
You know, with that person, youcan improve your relationship
with that person.
It may not be fantastic, butyou can make it better.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Going back, to just you know overall, what is that
impact that these type ofdysfunctions has on a team and
culture?
What have you seen?
Speaker 3 (11:02):
People don't want to confront the boss right, because
he's a screamer.
They're scared of him.
People would rather make it upas they go along because they're
scared of him.
People might lie as a reactionto dealing with this horrible
person that they don't want todeal with.
Other people may cower in theircorners.
(11:26):
You know there's a lot ofnegative behaviors that happen
as a result of working with orfor somebody who's a bully.
We should also, if we have time, talk about how that person got
to that position of power,because I feel like that's kind
of an important thing about it.
Absolutely Like the guy orwoman they have talents or they
(11:48):
wouldn't be in that position,and it's probably not a secret
to the people in human resourcesthat that person is a bully.
So it's dangerous a little bitto confront head on that person.
But why?
Because they're there for areason.
(12:11):
Maybe they bring in you knowall the rain, all the new
business, right.
Maybe they've worked there for20 years and they know all the
players and all the clients.
Let's say you know they arevery powerful or they would not
be able to get away with all thebullying.
So it's very difficult to go upagainst that person one on one
and you have to be very carefulabout it.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
At the same time, though, isn't there a degree
because we talk so much aboutaccountability within, you know,
the work environment, the homeenvironment, and isn't there an
obligation of responsibility,though, to decide the fact that
somebody generates a great dealfor the business and they bring
(12:57):
in all these new opportunitiesand address the fact that that
individual, regardless of theirbehavior?
Yes, it's unacceptable, and wehave to make, we have to kind of
model, what we believe to be,you know, real leadership, and
that wouldn't be it, and sosomething would have to be done.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I'd say eventually yes, but let's say you are a new
employee, right, and you getinto the situation, and then
there's somebody who's bullyingyou, right?
You don't really know all thehistory of that person, you
don't know the network ofalliances that exist there and
(13:41):
you don't really have any poweryourself either, because you've
just come in.
So I think that this is true,that companies need to be better
at moderating bullying behavior.
That's true.
But I also believe that it'svery difficult for somebody to
change unless they themselveswant to change.
(14:02):
You can change yourself, but Ido not think that you can change
another human being, right.
I agree, I don't think you can.
So you know, are you going toleave the job because this guy
or woman is driving you crazy?
No, you're not going to leavethe job.
You are going to learn how todeal with that bully and wrestle
with it and you are going toget better at it.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
So you're never saying that you're going to
accept that behavior.
You're saying to anyone up anddown the food chain learn
tactics and strategies forworking with that type of
individual, and even with alittle bit of maybe some help
and self-awareness for hopingthat they change.
(14:44):
You can't control that.
They'll change.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
You will never be able to control them and you
will not be able to change them,but I do believe that you can
make that bully respect you andin that way, I think that he or
she will treat you better if herespects you, and so some of my
tips are really about that aboutgaining the respect and not
(15:09):
cowering.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Before we get there, though, why would you say an
individual is a bully, or is agrumpy martyr or, you know, or
is a credit snatcher?
Why do they behave in that andthose dysfunctional manners?
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Well, I think bullies in particular, I think that
there's a lot of resonance withbeing a childhood bully, like
they grew up, like theplayground bully, and I feel
like a lot of times they theydid that as kids, you know, and
it wasn't checked.
And then they get into theworkplace and it's not checked
(15:53):
and you know they.
They are very talented, as Isaid, in terms of other things,
you know, getting the job done,task oriented, they get the
stuff done and things weredifferent 10 years ago, like
people would were different 10years ago, like people would
overlook it 10 years ago.
But maybe that man or woman isstill there, right, and I think
that times have changed right,and we're not as tolerant
(16:16):
towards bullying.
But, believe me, it is stillout there.
We may hate it or whatever, butit's still there.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I absolutely agree with you and you're speaking my
entire story.
I mean, I was kept around for avery long time because I was a
massive producer, but mybehavior and my bully style of
leadership eventually had meseeing the door.
So the self-awareness isabsolutely key and the
(16:48):
self-assessment is absolutelykey which we'll get to.
How can someone self-assess orreally become aware, even on
their own, let alone with someprofessional support?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Right.
So, first of all, I think thatperformance reviews are sort of
a key to it, or maybe even ithappens before a performance
review.
A lot of times, something willhappen like there'll be a person
who complains about a bully,and it may be like a solitary
incident, like somebody justsort of.
(17:23):
I do not recommend doing this,by the way, okay, but they come
in, they complain to somebody athuman resources.
Maybe that person like rushesup to your boss and says like,
oh, like she's a bully, likeso-and-so complained, right.
I think that it's so critical tonot just tamp down the
(17:43):
criticism.
I think we're all trying totamp down criticism.
Like Dale Carnegie said thatpeople hate to be criticized,
and I think that that is a trueinsight into human nature, right
, what happens when someonecriticizes you?
You're like no, it's not true.
It's not true, right, and youknow all your resources go to
proving it's not true and youbandy about it and you get, like
(18:04):
the emails and the people tocome in and support you and all
this stuff.
Right, and you save your job,right, you save it.
But instead of celebratingafter you've saved your job, but
instead of celebrating afteryou've saved your job, that's
the time to reflect and say wasthat person secretly right?
Did I bully them?
Did I make them cower in acorner?
(18:25):
Did I make her cry?
I think it's important to sortof say, not just I saved my job,
I saved my skin, but like, whatdid I learn from this
interaction and can I dosomething to dampen it a little
bit?
Dampen it down, don't be so inyour face, don't be so
aggressive, don't be so hostile.
So yeah, I think a lot of timesthere is like a singular
(18:48):
complaint and we people dampenit down and then we don't think
about it because we got throughthe crisis.
Of course, professional helptoo.
You know there's seeing careercoaches and going to
psychiatrists and shrinks, andyou know I think that's fine,
that's all good, as long as youknow you're trying to.
(19:08):
One is trying to improveoneself.
(19:41):
What are some tactics andstrategies someone can use to
address some of these peoplespecifically?
You know bully bosses, but evensome of the other ones, because
a boss's pet is when you do itthat matters, right?
I mean, I've walked in hallwaysin advertising and been yelled
at right by a boss, right there,in front of every single person
, and I'm happy to say I've saidnothing.
Because just because somebodyis yelling at you doesn't make
them right.
Loudness does not equal rightand I think, in the heat of the
(20:03):
moment, if you can sort of havethe equanimity to step back and
say I am not going to yell atthis guy right now, but I will
deal with it later.
I think that is the criticalmoment.
Pausing, yeah, pause, step back.
(20:24):
If you're a lady, run to theladies room, whatever the men's
room.
If you're a man, get out ofthere, get out of the heated
situation, you know, and don'temote.
Don't emote right in the moment, because if you do, if you're
like, hey, buddy, I don't wantto be yelled at you.
Know, I'm like, whatever, you'regoing to lose your job, I'm
(20:49):
telling you you are.
So if you want to keep your job, you need to get out of the
situation.
Take a walk around the block,you know, just leave the
premises, do something and calmyourself down.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Well, isn't it also?
You're wanting to to kind ofprevent feeding the beast?
If, all of a sudden, you'reresponding to some some
hostility with hostility, that'sjust ramping everything up and
that's not going to solveanything, that's not going to
have a happy ending for anyoneor anything.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
It really isn't and neither is.
I'm just going to say thisneither is bursting into tears
going to help you either,because that's considered really
unprofessional and people aregoing to feel bizarre being
around you.
So you can't cry and you can'tyell right Fight or flight.
Fight or flight.
I would say flee, flee thesituation.
(21:39):
Okay, then, in quietness, youwant to start developing a
little list and you want to sayon such and such a day, peter
screamed his head off at me forno reason in the hallway.
He said blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
And I walked very calmly by andyou're going to keep a document
(22:02):
of these incidents that happen.
That is what my recommendationis to do.
This is a long, long haul, butI think you should do it anyway,
because a he's probablybullying other people too.
It's probably not just you.
Okay, we'll get into that in aminute, but but I would say,
keep a little list and then, ina very calm moment maybe it's
(22:24):
two weeks later you're going togo in like wrap on his door, ask
if you can talk to him for afew minutes.
If he says, okay, come on in,you know, then you close the
door and you say you know, Ireally feel like you are
bullying me and I don't like it.
I think it's important to callout the aggression and he will
(22:46):
probably deny it.
Right, he will deny it, butyou're going to be very calm and
say well, no, as a matter offact, on December 2nd you know
you you said this, and December5th you said that and I feel
like you're targeting me, you'resingling me out, and I want to
work with you so that we don'thave this situation between us
(23:08):
and sometimes just that willease the situation, because he's
going to understand that youare onto him going to understand
that you are onto him.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Sometimes that alone will help.
Now, the two weeks is that?
Because one, you don't want toassume that that first outburst
was a pattern.
It could have just been thatguys or girls having a bad day,
a bad moment, and they happen tolash out in front of everybody.
But yet if you wait to see ifthere's a pattern and it is a
(23:39):
target on you, then you want tobe able to go and address it and
that's why the couple of weeksyou want to wait until you build
that pattern.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
I think that's a good idea, but I also think it also
has to do with having proofpoints, in case you need to
bring this to somebody else.
You need to show a pattern.
It can't just be an isolatedincident, but also in a week, in
two weeks, maybe two days,whatever.
People calm down a lot, youknow.
(24:10):
Maybe, maybe after the outburst, you know he's going to stop by
and say, hey, you know, I'mreally sorry about that, I
didn't mean to do that, forgiveme or whatever.
In which case you should,because, well, part of my theory
is it's better to be flexibleand let things bounce off of you
and realize people have baddays and be that kind of a
(24:31):
person where you know you'rejust there to solve problems.
That's the other, that's theother thing.
It's like you're not there tocreate a problem, all right.
So when you one reason I saydon't go to human resources
immediately is because if you goto human resources, then you
are going to be looked at as theproblem, even though it's his
problem, you're going to belooked at as a problem, right?
(24:52):
So you need a lot of proofpoints, I'd say, before going to
anybody super official in yourcompany.
It can't just be one or twotimes.
It has to be a real pattern.
All the more reason to you knowremain calm on the outside.
You can broil on the inside,but calm on the outside, you
know, and just keep a record ofwhat is going on.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
And just keep a record of what is going on.
Yeah, yeah, what would you tellsomeone that I guess yelling at
somebody is the same, or hasthe same degree of emotion, as
being in a room full of people,maybe sitting at the table, and
someone demeans you or degradeyou or insults you.
(25:38):
The yelling is one thing, butthen the words people might use
is a whole different situation.
How would you handle that?
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Well, I think it's in terms of a tactic.
I think it's a little bitsimilar in that, let's say,
somebody's always interruptingyou.
Every time you open your mouthin a big group meeting,
somebody's like cutting you offand interrupting you.
I think it's kind of the sametactic that you use, which is to
(26:11):
wait and address it with thatperson in a calm moment.
Every time I open my mouth, Ifeel like you're cutting me off.
Why, why is that happening?
I feel like I'm not allowed tospeak in the meeting.
Is that okay for me to speak?
I think you have to call it out,but gently, gently, Another way
(26:32):
.
I mean with that specificallyyou know there's other tactics,
like, for example, if you canget yourself into the situation
where you are the note taker inthe meeting, like if you're
taking the minutes of themeeting, you can sort of exact
your revenge, if you will, bygetting your ideas into the,
into those notes.
You know if you were cut off,but you're the note, you're the
(26:54):
official note taker notes.
You know if you were cut off,but you're the note, you're the
official note taker, you knowyou can put it in.
I so and so had you know anidea that we didn't have time to
talk about it, but you know youcan insert it if that's the
problem that your ideas aren'tgetting out, because it keeps
like quashing down.
But in terms of like looking inthe mirror and saying, well, am
(27:14):
I the problem?
A lot depends on the protocolof the particular company.
You know who is allowed tospeak in those meetings.
You know what level are you at.
Are you monopolizing themeeting by always like raising
your hand and having an idea?
Are you talking over people?
So there's a lot about that too, like self-analysis.
(27:35):
But I would say, yes, it's veryannoying to be interrupted all
the time.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
I think that's a good point, that you don't want to
automatically assume it's theother person who is improper in
their behavior.
You first have to kind ofassess yourself to say, well,
wait a minute, am I provokingthem to behave a certain way
based on my own performance orbehavior?
(27:59):
And then say, okay, if I assessthat no, it's not me, that this
is happening for no reason.
I think that's a very greatpoint, because automatically we
always tend to think that it'ssomebody else and not ourselves,
right?
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Exactly.
I think also this is not a tipI've written about, but I think
also if you have a buddy in theoffice and you trust the person
and you can ask the other personlike let's honestly assess each
other in these meetings and youcan give feedback to like a
(28:41):
one-on-one buddy system, thatcould be a way of correcting if
your buddy says what I think youwere just trying to talk too
much, you know, and he wasn'table to get his thoughts out and
then you realize, oh, it's myproblem, okay, I can work on it.
You can work on your ownproblems, but you can't change
other people.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, Now and with all of this, you are not in any
way saying that anyone shouldaccept the behavior, but at the
same time, you just need tolearn how to deal with it.
Are you also saying that youcould have a decision point
where it's not worth the job andit's not worth the mental
(29:23):
strain and the stress, andtherefore you have a decision
point that you're in control of?
As far as do I stay in thistype of culture or do I leave
this culture?
Would that be a fair assessment?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Yes, but my only point is I think that is
absolutely true.
But my only point is if you'regoing to stay in your same field
, you're going to encounter thesame personality types elsewhere
.
Now, maybe that bully isn't asterrible as the one that you're
currently working with.
Right, but you also have otherfactors.
(29:59):
When you go to a new place, youknow you have to learn the
culture all over again.
You have to prove yourself allover again.
You have to work super hard inthe beginning, all over again,
until you know all the peopleand you understand all the tasks
.
And it's, you know, kind of a.
It's a better tactic probably tostay where you are, deal with
this bully and rise in your owncompany, rather than hopping,
(30:23):
hopping, hopping, hopping,hopping I mean over time, over
time.
I think it's better to staysomeplace, like for a while, and
get the experience there andget the money and get promoted.
So, yes, there are certainsituations, like, for example, I
think if you're feelingsexually harassed at your
company, then I think probablyyou may want to leave.
(30:47):
You may want to leave or youmay force the other person to
leave.
Okay, that's a situation whereit is intolerable to be there
being sexually harassed.
It's just horrible and youshould get out of there and
probably the situation won'texist.
You know that way in anothercompany.
But if it's just like your sortof backyard bully that's
(31:09):
bullying you, I think you shouldtry to deal with him or her
first before deciding to leave.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
I want to kind of sum this up, but I want to break it
down into two different groups.
What would you say to HRleaders and like the powers to
be when it comes to what theyshould be doing in regards to
(31:37):
handling these dysfunctionaltype of individuals?
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Right.
So I think that you knowtraining is always a good idea,
right?
I mean, I know I've sat throughsexual harassment seminars and
you know, and like it's good tosort of teach people what is
acceptable behavior and whatisn't.
As, as rudimentary as thatsounds, I think that we didn't
(32:02):
learn it in college, right?
We didn't learn it in gradschool.
Like we need to learn how tobehave with other people in the
office, Like we need to learnhow to behave with other people
in the office.
So I think all of those typesof seminars are great.
The human resources people haveto decide whether the bullying,
let's say, has risen to thelevel of.
Is it a warning that you'regoing to give this person?
(32:24):
You know, is it?
Is it going to be that he'ssuspended or are you going to
kick him out?
Like how bad is it that he'ssuspended?
Are you going to kick him out?
Like how bad is it?
You know there's pros and cons,you know, versus like all the
money he's bringing in or theclients or whatever it is that's
keeping him there.
They have to, you know thatversus the potential lawsuits.
You know they have to decidethese things.
But to people who are not in HR.
(32:46):
I would say HR should beprobably your last resource.
I think your first resource isyourself going to the person
calling out in a calm moment,calling out the aggression.
Right, if it happens again, goback, call it out again, like
you have to show the bully thatyou're not frightened of this
person.
(33:06):
Right, you recognize it andyou're calling it out, and
sometimes that alone will makethe problem disappear from your
standpoint, which is what we'retalking about.
Right, then you may want totalk to other people in your
company.
You might want to.
This guy or woman has probablybullied lots of people and there
are lots of people who have thescars inside the scars, like to
(33:27):
talk about it, and you are notalone.
You are not alone.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
You are not alone, right?
The only thing I need to kindof challenge and would love your
thought on is I would thinkthat the business individual,
the business team, shouldpartner with HR, not to report,
but more so get advice, getcoaching on how they could
approach the situation withmaybe a statement of I'm not
(33:59):
formally placing a complaint forHR to act on.
You're my partner and I wantsome guidance and some kind of
overall coaching from you as tohow to handle something, and
some kind of overall coachingfrom you as to how to handle
something.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Would you not recommend that?
I think it's a great idea, butI think that the minute you go
in there, you kind of arelodging a complaint.
Whether you're putting it inwriting or not, I think you
still are lodged.
Because the thing is, what isthe HR person going to do?
They're not going to go to theperson and say we received four
(34:38):
complaints about your bullying.
Well, what's the first question?
Who did it?
Who complained?
Right?
And then it's like you know,you're not just being like the
target, but now you're like atattletale, You're like the
whistleblower.
You know, I think it's dangerous.
I have to be honest, I thinkit's.
It sounds good, but I thinkit's dangerous to go in and
(35:00):
actually make the complaintwithout a lot of like proof
points that you have.
I really do.
I mean, you don't want thatperson to distrust you.
That is going to have analienating impact, I believe, on
the bully.
And now, now you know, because,as I say, this person is a
(35:24):
person in power and they can dothings to you.
They can move you into a slowerdepartment.
Maybe that's good, but they canmove you, you.
They can move you into a slowerdepartment.
Maybe that's good, but they canmove you away.
They can give you terribleassignments.
There's lots of things they cando if they don't trust you and
they want to get rid of you.
And then you go into humanresources.
(35:44):
I believe you're vulnerable tothat because the human resources
person who's doing their job,they're going to to, maybe not
in front of you, but they'regoing to write it down and now
it's on the record.
You know.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Yeah, ok, all right.
Would you tell individuals thatare dealing with this what they
could do to get to know or todeal with these type of
dysfunctional behaviors?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I would say realize when something is somebody
else's problem, right, maybe youworked on a report for three
weeks, right, and you hand it toyour boss and he grunts and he
doesn't say thank you, or shedoesn't say thank you, you know,
(36:39):
and they just like walk on by,right, and then they never get
back to you with any kind offeedback or whatever.
You know you're going to besitting there probably thinking
like, what did I do wrong?
What did I do wrong?
You know, why don't I, whydoesn't this person give me any
feedback, or whatever.
But like, maybe that person isgetting a divorce from his wife,
you know, right, maybe hetotaled the car over the weekend
(37:00):
.
I mean, there's stuff going onin people's personal life that
you don't know about, andsometimes their lack of respect
or response is something youcouldn't possibly know anything
about.
It's their problem.
And I think, just like theself-talk of sometimes saying
you know what?
This is his problem, that hedidn't get back to me on this
(37:24):
fantastic report that I wrote,and like pat yourself on the
back, yeah and just, I guessthat would be one thing.
And then the second is just, Imentioned it before, but just to
say you are there to solveproblems.
Everybody in the whole companyis there to solve problems, not
to create them.
So when somebody is a problemlike a bully, you want to kind
(37:47):
of tamp it down.
You don't want to escalate it.
That would be my first thought.
You don't want to escalate it?
That would be my first thought.
Like, don't escalate stuff,tamp it down and just solve the
work problems that you're thereto solve.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, this has been fabulous.
We could talk about thissubject around don't bully me
ever and I want to mention toeveryone you can dive into the
subject and get all thosetactics and strategies based on
the 17 different dysfunctionalstyles that she had mentioned,
tinycc forward.
(38:19):
Slash bad bosses, crazy workers, and take advantage of really
digging in, identifying thespecific problem you're having
and then finding the tacticsthat she's promoting.
(38:40):
Also, be sure to follow her.
Follow Vicki on LinkedIn andFacebook, just simply at Vicki
Oliver.
You'll find her very easily,and then, if you want to learn
more about Vicki and the workthat she does and the books that
she has, go to VickiOlivercom.
Vicki.
This has been fabulous, sofabulous.
(39:00):
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Thanks so much for having me.
I love you know talking aboutthis important topic with you,
and I very appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
You're very welcome topic with you and I very
appreciate it.
You're very welcome.
What a powerhouse and apowerful conversation with Vicki
Oliver.
I don't know about you, but wecan never talk enough about how
to deal with dysfunctionalpersonalities in the workplace,
whether they are bullies or, asshe said, they might be grumpy
(39:29):
martyrs, bosses, pets, creditsnatchers and a number of others
.
As a matter of fact, shementioned that there's 17
different styles that you mightbe dealing with in the workplace
that could cause you challenges.
So then she went on to reallyget into what you need to do in
order to manage them, buildbridges with them, confront them
(39:54):
, but in a way that won't hurtyou but will just support your
cause in you not changing themin any way, shape or form, but
you being able to deal with them, manage them or at least
survive with them in yourcurrent position.
So it was a powerfulconversation, one that
(40:16):
definitely, as I mentioned,needs to be talked about time
and time again because, as weall know, and as Vicki stated,
life's not greener somewhereelse.
And so the choice to leave yourposition thinking that you're
going to find a better culture,a better set of personalities in
(40:37):
another company that could justget you into more trouble than
you already have, and so in heradvice and her tips, she's
suggesting that you learn how tomanage, deal with, the various
dysfunctional personalities thatyou have within any workplace.
So I'd be very interested tohear your thoughts and ideas
(41:01):
around this subject.
So feel free to link in with meat BernadetteBose on LinkedIn
and send me a direct message.
But should you need somespecific guidance and support
and handholding through adifficult situation with an
employee, a boss or someone else, then don't hesitate to reach
(41:22):
out and let's talk about it.
You can go tocoachmebernadettecom forward
slash discovery call and we canhave a 30-minute conversation,
and I can leave you with sometips and strategies as well for
you to then act on to create abetter environment for yourself,
the team and the business as awhole.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand I'll look forward to having
(41:44):
you for another episode ofShedding the Corporate Bitch.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Bye.
Thank you for tuning intotoday's episode of Shedding the
Corporate Bitch.
Every journey taken together isanother step towards unleashing
the powerhouse leader withinyou.
Don't miss any of our weeklyepisodes.
Subscribe to our podcast onApple Podcasts, spotify or
wherever you love to listen.
And, for those who thrive onvisual content, catch us on our
Shedding the Bitch YouTubechannel.
(42:08):
Want to dive deeper withBernadette on becoming a
powerhouse leader?
Visit balloffirecoachingcom tolearn more about how she helps
professionals, hr executives andteam leaders elevate overall
team performance.
You've been listening toShedding the Corporate Bitch
with Bernadette Boas.
Until next time, keep shedding,keep growing and keep leading.
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