November 27, 2017 • 59 mins
Dr. E shares about age and development in response to a listener question.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Over:
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about
Dissociative Identity Disorder.If you are new to the podcast,
we recommend starting at thebeginning episodes and listen in
order to hear our story and whatwe have learned through this
endeavor. Current episodes maybe more applicable to long time
listeners and are likely tocontain more advanced topics,
(00:33):
emotional or other triggeringcontent, and or reference
earlier episodes that providemore context to what we are
currently learning andexperiencing. As always, please
care for yourself during andafter listening to the podcast.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Hello, this is Doctor. E. I got a question for
me from a listener. So I wantedto address that today before we
talk about other things. Thelistener says that they watched
a video about age and DID andthat it was a good video, which
(01:27):
is great.
I don't know which video Ididn't I was not given the link
for the video, so I can'treference who did it. And, if we
can find that out, we can addthe link on the blog. But this
listener says that age withalters in a system was explained
(01:49):
as a time capsule of when theevent that brought them
happened. So I didn't see thevideo, so I'm not sure what
they're talking about or how toclarify that or explain it. But
(02:10):
what I would assume that thatsystem was doing was trying to
explain how they understand thatdifferent alters inside can have
different ages.
And so it sounds like for them avisual or symbol or metaphor of
the time capsule is what worksfor them. So that's great. That
(02:35):
is an excellent explanation.What I could add to that is just
simply that everyone inside doeshave different ages. We are,
some of us older and some of usyounger and different ages
scattered in between there.
(02:56):
I don't know if it's the same aswhat this other system was
explaining, but as far as us andour system, I can only speak for
us. What we understand is thatsome of them are sort of stuck
in time. And so the ones who areyounger, it's because something
(03:17):
significant happened at thattime. So either there was some
trauma or incident or relationalissue where that alter no longer
could progress or was not neededto function in the same role.
And so someone else took overthat job, or there was further
(03:39):
splitting internally due to anissue.
And I want to be careful withthat word because I know some
people are pretty sensitive toit because terms like split
personality are not appropriate.And especially if we're talking
about a structural dissociationkind of perspective where it's
about development, thesedifferent states have not joined
(04:03):
together through normaldevelopment because it was
disrupted, because that processwas interrupted by trauma. But
at the same time, there can alsobe a sense of splitting as far
as like a little s as far asdifferent roles being shared
(04:25):
amongst other people that nowfeel like new alters. So for
example, if we had one alterthat specifically only dealt
with the parents And then for usin our system, when some
specific things happened, thenthat sort of that job, for lack
(04:48):
of a better phrase, that job gotsplit, lower s, meaning our
survival depended on having totake care of those issues or
take care of ourselves bysharing that job. And so it
(05:11):
became where the one who wasonly dealing with the parents
was then two who dealt with theparents, one for the mother and
one for the father.
That's just an example from oursystem, and it was due to some
specific issues. And if in thecontext of that story, it would
(05:31):
make sense, in the context ofthe greater narrative, it would
make sense. But I think ratherthan arguing about theories on
points of this, I think it'smore about part of it is
specific to each system andunique to them. Part of it is
specific to the trauma itself,the type of trauma, who the
(05:55):
abusers were, where the traumawas coming from, and how the
survivor really needed to, whatthey needed to do to be able to
get through those moments anddeal with that, what was going
on. So in this case, when I usethe phrase splitting, I am not
necessarily talking about thepersonality splitting, although
(06:18):
in some language that's how thephrase is used.
But I think that's more aboutthe limits of language rather
than what's actually happening.Because really what happened was
it wasn't so much that theperson split as much as the
roles and jobs and mechanism fordealing with what was going on,
(06:42):
that got split. So rather thanthis job being assigned to one
person, this job is now assignedto two people. And that for us
is how some of the new alterscame about or presented
themselves with the things thatthey are now responsible for,
some of those positive and someof those being traumatic. At the
(07:06):
same time, the reverse canhappen as well.
So for example, a few weeks ago,Emma Z and Emma T and MS shared
a little bit about becoming moreco conscious. And part of that
is possible because of thecooperation and communication.
And part of that is possiblebecause those roles have
(07:26):
shifted. And so it's not thatthey've gone away or come
together or somehow turned fromingredients into a brownie mix,
which someone told us once. It'snot so much that as that the job
itself has changed and therequirements for doing that job
have changed.
And so they can share thoseresponsibilities and the need
(07:50):
for the wall between them is notso great or so desperate, so to
speak. And so it's more aboutthat wall coming down through
cooperation and communicationand compassion for each other,
but then also the responsibilitybeing shared. So they are still
(08:11):
all three present, but they arenot as distinct as they once
were, but not yet entirelytogether either. So I don't know
if that's too off track, butpart of it depends on what
theory of dissociation yousubscribe to or how you
understand dissociation. Sowhatever video this listener
(08:31):
saw, I'm sure that I'm sure thatthat system was presenting as
best that they knew how, whatfits for their system and what,
how their system understandsthat process.
The other piece is thatdevelopmentally these needs
change over time. So a sevenyear old being abused has
(08:57):
different needs than a threeyear old being abused who has
different needs than a 14 yearold being abused. I don't mean
that any of those are okay withbeing abused or should be
abused. I just mean the needs indealing with it, the kind of
help they need in healing, thekind of care that they need to
(09:19):
feel responded to and rescuedand made safe and helped and
comforted will look differentbased on those ages as well as
other factors like theirpersonality or other triggers
they have or who they are as aperson, as a unique individual
within the system. So when we'retalking about littles or young
(09:42):
alters, this is part of thatsame thing where there may be an
infant inside because such andsuch happened to that infant
specifically.
And so they stayed an infantbecause that happened. Or it
could be because this was goingon as an infant and then that
(10:02):
stopped happening as an infantand now something else is
happening instead. That'sanother part inside that's
dealing with what's happeningnow. Maybe it's a good thing.
Maybe that infant was rescued,and so now there's someone else
who's dealing with foster care,for example, while the infant is
still back, is stuck in timedealing with what happened to
them in the first place.
(10:23):
Or maybe the type of abusechanged or the person who was
abusing them changed. There's somany factors, but I promise that
everyone that's inside a systemis there for a reason. And I
promise that every part of asystem has some kind of role or
contribution or strength thatthey bring the system that makes
(10:50):
them very important and helpsexplain why they are there. So
even someone like Sasha, who onher podcast talks about being
silly or being this or beingthat and blowing off she does
not have an important role or ajob, that's part of her job. I,
for example, am not going tojust hang out with the husband
(11:11):
or play with the children or gomake snacks when some people
want something to eat.
That's just not my personality.It's not what I need, but it is
a need in our family externally.And it is a need for us as a
system as a whole. And so thethings that she does or the
things that, or who she hasbecome as she herself has grown
(11:35):
up and as much as she has grownup in her own way and the role
that she plays both internallyor externally is very important
and just as important as what Ido. It's just a different job.
So the same thing for me. It'simportant that we as a system
pay our bills just like anyother person. It's important
(11:58):
that we as a system developintellectually or academically
or professionally. And so that'swhat I did. I went to school, I
got a job, I gained experience,I developed my own practice,
like all of these things thatare a part of what is unique and
(12:19):
specific to me.
But those are sort of mylimitations because we have
these walls between us. I am notable to then also go home and
deal with the family. I justdon't. But also, Sasha could not
come to my office and do what Ido all day. So it's very unique
and very specific.
(12:40):
And it's the same with thechildren. If there are different
children or younger alters orlittles internally in a system,
they're there for a reason and arole. And some of those may very
well be related to traumadirectly or specifically, and
some of them may not be. Andthen the same as with the adults
where some of them are helpersor some of them are protectors,
(13:03):
That may happen with the littlesas well. There may be some who
are more protective of the otherlittles or some who help connect
the other littles to thetherapist or the other littles
to the functioning adults in thesystem or the littles to safety
or like John in our system ispretty much the one who's in
(13:25):
charge of making sure we eatonce in a while, right?
So they all have different rolesthat they play and gifts that
they bring and strengths thatthey add and contribute toward
the functioning of the system.No matter what functioning looks
like at whatever particularseason in life that the system
(13:48):
has been in or is now. So thislistener who says that they
watched this video about littlesand age and DID says that in the
video, they based how functionala little is off of the Eric
(14:09):
Erickson's stages ofpsychosocial development. She
said that their alters aretreated all like adults, but she
doesn't explain what makes thelittles want to go to the park
or color or that kind of thingif they are adults. So I was
hoping you would explain that.
Okay. So again, I can't speakfor that system, and I don't at
(14:33):
all mean to insult or isolateanyone because I don't know what
video was seen and I have notwatched the video myself. And so
I'm not sure what they weredoing. I don't understand this
perspective at all. In fact, Iwould probably say I disagree
with it, but also I have notseen it.
So I can't actually disagreewith it. But treating all of
(14:57):
their alters like adults issomething I don't understand
because unless all of them areadults. Because if they're
little or stuck in a time loop,then they are not going to be
present or functioning in anadult way. So I'm not sure what
that part is about, about whyyou would treat littles like
(15:18):
adults other than we as asystem, as a whole, are
responsible for the system as awhole. And so there's that, but
I'm not sure why you would treatlittles like adults or what that
is referring to or meaning.
So I'll have to follow-up onthat and ask about it. But the
other piece about littleswanting to go to the park or
(15:41):
color or those kinds of thingsare exactly that because they
are age appropriate activitiesfor those alters at that ages.
And so when the system was atthat age, if they had this
particular interest or thatparticular interest, or maybe
have gained a new hobby orinterest as the system has grown
(16:02):
or maybe during the season ofhealing and therapy, they may
have new safe items of comfortor, activities that they enjoy,
but they are still ageappropriate for that alter,
whatever their age is, whetherthat is Sasha going out to the
movies with the husband orwhether that's John going to the
(16:24):
park, those are age appropriateactivities. So that's why the
littles would want to becausethey enjoy those things because
it's age appropriate for wherethey are in development. Does
that make sense?
So I'm not sure what was said inthe video, and I apologize for
(16:45):
responding to a video I've notactually seen, but I wanted to
answer the listener's questions.As far as Erickson's stages of
psychosocial development, I candefinitely talk about that, but
I don't know how you wouldmeasure how functional a little
is from that because traumadisrupts all of that. So it's
(17:07):
not going to be an accuratemeasure if someone is using that
to assess Littles internally.Using Erickson's stages of
psychosocial development is notgoing to be an accurate
assessment necessarily oflittles inside a system that has
(17:31):
been traumatized or is pluralfrom trauma because trauma
disrupts all of that. So eitherI'm not understanding what the
video was about, which is verylikely since I've not seen it,
or this is a system that hasmade a lot of progress through
therapy and is definitely not atthe beginning stages because
(17:51):
otherwise that's not consistentat all.
So when we talk about EricErickson's psychosocial stages
of development, we are talkingabout how he laid out
development for all people.Well, I mean, he was really
studying white people in the1960s, but that is assumed to be
(18:14):
applicable to all people. But helaid out development through the
lifespan and talked about ateach stage of development what
the crisis was of that period ofdevelopment. So for example,
from infant to 18, about thattime is trust versus mistrust.
(18:38):
18 to three years is autonomyversus shame and doubt.
Three to five years isinitiative versus guilt. Five to
thirteen years is industryversus inferiority. Thirteen to
twenty one years is identityversus role confusion. Twenty
(18:59):
one to thirty nine years isintimacy versus isolation. Forty
to sixty five years isgenerativity versus stagnation.
And 65 and older is egointegrity versus despair. But
when we talk about these stagesin the context of development,
(19:22):
it has a very different picture.So for trust versus mistrust,
for example, when we're aninfant, the infant is learning
about whether the world isreliable or not, and it's the
time of object relationsdevelopment. So is my mother
still there even when I can'tsee her? Is she going to meet my
(19:45):
needs or not?
Will I get food when I'm hungry?Will my diaper be changed when
I'm dirty? All of these needsthat teach the child where the
world is safe or not. So it'snot just about if the child
knows the world is safe, thenthey're in a different stage of
development. Or if the childthinks the world is not safe,
(20:10):
then it means they're still atthis stage.
That's not what it means at all.What it means is that if at this
age, they determine that trustwins out over mistrust, then
they also develop traits likehope, for example. But if
mistrust wins out over trustbecause their needs are not met,
(20:37):
then they develop insteaddefense mechanisms instead of
hope such as denial andprojection. So what that's gonna
look like is an access todisorder that, or a personality
disorder that begins to developat this time because we stay
safe through defense mechanismsas opposed to we have hope that
(21:00):
even when things are hard, wewill still be okay. Does that
make sense?
And so I don't know how youwould tell by that how
functional a little is unlessthey just have a different
understanding than the clinicalunderstanding of the
psychosocial stages ofdevelopment. So really, what
(21:24):
happens in the past, whether thealter is a little who's stuck in
time or whether it's a grownperson that's a different alter
altogether, what that looks likeis when something new happens,
which defense mechanisms doesthe person use to protect
(21:44):
themselves based on whathappened back then at that time?
So is that person able todevelop hope because in some
way, through some means, even ifit wasn't the primary caregiver,
like for us, we've alreadytalked about or shared last week
about good neighbors that we hadnearby. So through that, those
(22:09):
experiences, if we can developsome hope, then we have access
to that even when things arereally, really hard now instead
of only denying our role inthings or denying how hard
things are or projecting ourissues onto others and things
(22:31):
that start to look like what'ssometimes called borderline
personality disorder. The othertime this shows up, this very
early, early dynamic is in theprocess of therapy itself.
When a system is in therapy andthey are trying to trust the
(22:54):
therapist, which is going to behard if you've had trauma
anyway. But if you had trauma atthat age between trust and
mistrust when that developmentalcrisis was going on, then what
that's going to be looking likeis not just is this a safe
place, but are you a safeperson? And it's going to take
(23:17):
more time to trust thattherapist and engage with that
therapist, but then also staywith that therapist. And if you
take that into context ofculture and society today, when
it is so hard to find atherapist who knows about DID or
who is trained to help with DIDor you have access to that
(23:42):
therapist because of insuranceor how much it costs or time or
like us, even distance, we drivefour hours just one way to the
therapist and then four hoursback again. So all of those
layers make it more complicated.
The thing that is going to lookdifferent in the alters who have
(24:04):
struggled with thisdevelopmental piece is one alter
who's stuck in time may thinkthat the therapist, that the
family put the therapist up tothis, or that the therapist will
tell the family, or another onemay just think the therapist
(24:25):
just wants to take their money,things like that. So it's going
to present differently based onthe uniqueness of each alter,
but that development affects allof the alters as a system
because it's a system experienceat that age. The unique
perceptions of each alter willpresent the questions or the
(24:49):
crisis differently than eachother and uniquely to
themselves. Does that makesense? So maybe that's what the
video is talking about, thatthey can tell by how the present
crisis presents to each alter,what that means to different
ones.
Maybe that's what they meanabout being able to assess, but
(25:10):
just based on the stages alone,that's not a thing. I don't
understand what that was talkingabout. So for example, we just
had the difficult weekend of theanniversary of the mother being
killed by the drunk driver.Right? And so we all have as a
system some sort of response tothat based on how we as a system
(25:35):
developed through each of thesestages of Erickson's
psychosocial development.
But uniquely as alters, that'sgoing to present differently to
us. So so it's M who's in crisisbecause she should have been
driving that day. So it's herfault the mother died, which is
(25:58):
not at all true. But she's theone who's going to present that
and feel that and express thatbecause that's her unique
perspective internally. WhereasSasha in a completely different
perspective based on herexperiences through those same
developmental periods, is goingto be like, no, it's good that
(26:22):
she's gone and we're okay withthat.
So get over yourself, which Ibelieve was a direct quote and
not necessarily appropriate atthe time or helpful. Helpful.
This is also the same reasonthat boundaries with therapists
are really important andconnection with therapists are
really important. Again, if youread some works by Patricia De
(26:46):
Jong, for example, about shamebased therapy and dealing with
shame in therapy, you can't healthose attachment pieces without
authentic, vulnerableconnection. And you need that
with a therapist if there'sgoing to be actual healing
because of these verydevelopmental stages that we're
(27:07):
talking about today.
That said, you also need goodboundaries, not just for your
safety or the safety of thetherapist or so that everyone's
healthy, all of that is true.But part of it is if the
therapist is doing too much workor too intrusive into the system
without letting the system solvethings on their own internally,
(27:31):
still being responsive, stillconnecting, still being
authentic, even being vulnerablewhen it's appropriate, but
letting the system solve theproblems internally, that's the
only way that they're going tobe able to adopt a hopeful
recovery because they're meetingthat trust versus mistrust need.
(27:54):
That is what is gonna be astrength based individualized
unique client driven recoveryplan. Anything else is going to
foster dependency in anunhealthy way and also delay the
healing because the therapist isdoing too much work or
retraumatizing the client withthe poor boundaries in some
(28:17):
really severe examples. Thesecond stage, autonomy versus
shame and self doubt kind ofcomes right into this next.
It's about the struggle forpersonal control and separation
from others. Think of that inthe experience of trauma where
you have no control over what'shappening to you, but you also
(28:41):
can't get away from them. Sothere's this layer where as a
two or three year old, you'resupposed to be feisty and
independent and becoming yourown person. The reason they call
it the terrible twos is becausetoddlers are separating
themselves not from the parent,but from the baby that they were
(29:04):
and from the parent who parentedthat baby. And the toddler is
initiating relationship buildingwith a new parent within the
same system of the parent childdynamic.
So it's almost like it goes backto structural dissociation
(29:24):
without the dissociation. Soit's almost like there's a
developmental stage of parentsas well. But when there's abuse
involved at this early age ortrauma or neglect of some kind,
then not only does the childhave no control over what's
happening to them, they alsocan't escape it. So the trauma
(29:46):
keeps happening because theycan't get away, but it also
interferes with normaldevelopment when there should be
some normal healthy separation.This goes right back into how
survivors can so easily fallinto unhealthy relationships
with either partners or with badtherapists because they are
(30:10):
seeking either control or tryingto regulate that safety.
So what this looks like isactually there's a word for it
called attunement. So if yousearch on YouTube for the flat
face experiment, This shows youwhat attunement is. It has a
(30:32):
mother with a child in a highchair, and it shows their normal
interactions, how they copy eachother and mimic each other, and
they're so in tune and it's verytender and sweet. But then for
the sake of the experiment, themother turns away and when she
looks back at the child, shemaintains a flat face and does
(30:53):
not respond. So you can see thechild go through all three of
the stages of first trying toget the mother's attention and
then trying to get mad becausethe child is hurt.
And so they're tuning into thatwavelength of the pain the
mother is sending out. And thenthe third thing the child does
(31:16):
is physically, literally turninghis face away because the mother
has not responded and so that'sas flat as the baby can go
because the only way to findattunement was to match the
disconnect from the care of theparent that was not happening.
(31:36):
Does that make sense? It's kindof mind boggling. It's like
watching the process ofdissociation from the outside at
that early age.
And then, of course, becauseit's an experiment and so they
want to repair thatmisattunement and bring it back
to attunement, then they showthe mother repair that and
recover and get the baby'sattention and comfort and
(31:59):
console him and everything'sokay. Whether you think that the
baby was traumatized by this ornot, that brings it full circle
to show how that can berealigned if it's repaired. But
with trauma, that's neverrepaired. So what's supposed to
happen at this stage ofdevelopment is the crisis is
supposed to resolve with thecognitive understanding that
(32:22):
healing is not returning to theideals of the past, but moving
forward with your life as it isnow. So this is why things like
functional multiplicity orfunctional plurality are so
powerful because it's not aboutyou are unwell until you have
(32:44):
been completely healed, whichlooks like this, which we say it
looks like this.
Because that's the psychosocialdevelopment of not having
control and not havingseparation. Someone else is
telling you what healing lookslike. So that's still just a
second stage of development. Butsurvivors are healing beyond
that. And because we have theseonline communities, we're able
(33:07):
to connect and have compassionwith each other and grow more
than what we have been in thepast because we have access to
all of this.
And so we have an understandingnow that, no, it's not okay for
you as the therapist or you asthe researcher to tell me that
(33:28):
this is what healing looks likebecause it's an incongruent and
inconsistent message. If theyare saying that we are
disordered because of amnesiaand because of the distress of
this disorder, the dissociativeidentity disorder, then as Sarah
(33:50):
Clark shared in one of hervideos, which I can link to, and
from power to the plurals, thenwhen we work through cooperation
and communication and compassionenough with ourselves internally
to bring down those amnesiawalls and are no longer
(34:11):
distressed by what's happening,then even though we are still
plural, we are no longerdisordered. And that is an
example of meeting thisdevelopmental stage and
progressing beyond it. That isabout being autonomous rather
than dependent on therapy. Nowyou can still seek therapy and
(34:33):
some people may want to go fullintegration or this or that or
maybe need help with therapy forthis specific issue or that
specific issue.
And that's fine. I'm not at allsaying therapy is a bad thing.
Therapy is a good thing whenthere's connection with a good
therapist and everybody isfeeling safe and participating
to degree they want to and areable to. But when you don't have
(34:58):
that or you are stuck in thisdevelopmental phase, then what
that looks like amongstdifferent insiders would be
externalizing anger,internalizing anger within the
system. So persecutors or whatare those who get labeled as
(35:19):
persecutors, quote unquotepersecutors, these are stuck at
this stage just trying toprotect the system, just trying
to have some control over what'shappening for the good of the
system, and trying to escapewhat is not good of the system.
Like, what is not good for thesystem. Like it's really that
(35:41):
simple. It may also look likeconflict with others or engaging
in self harm or other selfdamaging behaviors. It may be
intense emotions. It may includelosses or changes in
functioning.
And these can be misdiagnosed asthings like mood disorders. So
(36:04):
again, just like struggles atthe first developmental stage is
going to be misdiagnosed as apersonality disorder, struggles
at this stage is going to bemisdiagnosed as a mood disorder.
So does it make sense? It's notreally about littles or how what
age they are or meeting thisstage and being that age. It's
(36:25):
more about how the system as awhole presents and what that
presentation looks like underthat umbrella distinctly amongst
the different alters in waysthat are unique to each of them.
So when you're doing therapywell, when you're healing well
(36:46):
on your own, when you're talkingabout functional plurality or
functional multiplicity, thenwhat this looks like as this
stage resolved is healthyboundaries internally and
externally and more of anindependent posture both
internally and externally. Andeven some peer caretaking,
(37:09):
meaning not codependency becausethis is not stage one, but more
like being able to supportothers who being able to support
others who have gone throughsimilar things or issues you can
see more clearly because theyare not yours or just being
(37:32):
present with others withoutbeing overwhelmed by it or
invaded by it. Does that makesense? The next stage is
initiative versus guilt. Orreally in modern day language,
what he's talking about isn'tinitiative like, oh, I'm willing
to try this or oh, I'll startthis before someone else starts.
(37:52):
It's not about that. Takinginitiative in this context if we
translate it from what the, howthe word was used in the 60s to
how we use it today. It would bemore of a concept of
empowerment, of empowering yourown self. And minimizing what is
not functioning and focusing onwhat is functioning. So what
(38:15):
that means is more about insteadof focusing on all the things
that are wrong and all thethings you can't do well and all
the challenges that you have asa system, it's about focusing on
what you are doing well, how youare caring for yourself, and the
strengths and positives in theway that that gets applied
internally as well.
(38:36):
So again, using the example ofpersecutors, instead of being
afraid of them, instead oftrying to keep them locked up,
instead of, punishing them orbeing just generally disliking
them or blaming them or labelingthem. Instead, identifying with
what strengths they give thesystem and how they help the
(38:58):
system and using that for goodand helping them fulfill their
potential rather than also beingheld back because they are the
only ones with not a safe place,which holds ultimately the
system back as well. So theempowerment phase would be about
building new skills, being ableto do new things that you
(39:19):
couldn't before, new copingskills. That said, the guilt
stage isn't so much guilt asself blame. So again, there's
been a language shift over timethat doesn't quite explain it so
well when you just read thewords now, like on someone's
chart or something.
When he's talking about theguilt stage, he's talking about
(39:41):
being mean to yourself aboutwhat's not good. So instead of
focusing on the strengths ofpersecutors for example, it's
more like what's wrong with youor if you're depressed, why
don't you snap out of this. Orif you're not functioning as
well externally because you'redoing so much internally, then
(40:03):
being hard on yourself, whydon't you work? Why don't you
get out more? Why don't you dothis?
All of that. Which really areterrible questions because the
answer to that is because I'mdoing so much inside. There's so
much happening inside, that'sreally where I'm using all of my
energy or all of my spoons orall of my functioning. I can be
(40:25):
very high functioning internallyeven if I'm not high functioning
externally. So I get to definefor myself what high functioning
means and looks like.
When people get stuck in thisdevelopmental phase, in this
struggle, how that presentsexternally is about the strong
(40:49):
emotions with the need to repairit right now. I need to feel
better right now, like immediategratification. But doing that
work is so difficult and takesso much time, this is where
people fall apart. So what thatoften looks like is sex
addiction, drug addiction,alcoholism, suicidal behaviors,
(41:13):
self harm behaviors. All of thisis about feeling I am not
empowered and I it's too much tohandle and I can't make it
better.
It's never gonna get it better.All of these sorts of thoughts
which are misdirected because ofnot having the help or support
(41:34):
to understand the struggle isfor empowerment. So yes, we
can't solve it all now, but howcan you empower yourself for
this or this or this or whateverthat looks like for you? That's
how that can be resolved. And itresolves by using what you've
learned from the previous stagesof development.
(41:55):
So for example, you hold on tohope. You hold on to hope when
hope is all you have. And youhold on to your own autonomy. I
have the power to help myself.So no, I can't control what
other people do, and no, I can'talways change my circumstances,
(42:16):
but I always, always have theright and the power and the
capacity to choose how I respondto those things.
So you take the hope you learnfrom this stage one development
and the empowerment you learnfrom this stage two development,
and that's how you're able toget through the struggle of
(42:37):
stage three. And when you don't,what that looks like are the
fugue states of running away orthe suicidal ideation or
changing jobs or changing whereyou live or changing where in
the world you live. These kindsof things to physically escape
(42:57):
is what that looks like. Andthis is when the comorbid
personality disorder getsmisdiagnosed. So that means
there's a personality disorderlike borderline, for example,
and then also some alcohol ordrug use.
This is the stage where it'svery important to remember
(43:17):
things like spoons. When you'rein this developmental phase, you
have to focus on reasonablegoals that build your self
esteem and help you rememberyour self worth, connect you to
external networks for support,and also in some way find ways
(43:37):
to serve other people because ofthe way that empowers you and
gives you opportunity to beoutside your own headspace and
helping others who need it. Thatbrings you to the next stage,
which is stage four of recovery,action versus inaction, which
would be the modern way to talkabout Erickson's fourth
(44:01):
developmental stage of industryversus inferiority. So the
struggle at this stage askquestions like, do you just want
to stay sick, which is differentthan working on healing. And you
get to define healing.
So I'm not saying that DID isbeing sick or that being plural
(44:26):
is being sick. I mean, beingsick as in unwell because trauma
has done this to me and I'mgoing to stay in this state
instead of doing something aboutit. Or the energy stage of
activity versus isolation. Am Igoing to let them win is the
(44:46):
question of this stage. Am Igoing to let that abuse win?
Am I going to just drown in thisor am I going to use that hope
and that empowerment and thatcapacity to respond to what I've
been through, to find out who Iam and be myself, and do
(45:07):
something to connect with otherswho also need to know those
lessons. At this stage ofdevelopment, there is an ability
to seek out greater levels ofpurposeful work and more
meaningful activities or hobbiesAnd as well, while also
struggling with the questionabout how to continue therapy or
(45:33):
improving yourself for your ownhealing, but without
jeopardizing how far you've comealready just because it's hard
work to keep going. It's a timewhen people often quit therapy
right when they need it mostbecause they become distracted
(45:54):
by being able to function in allthe ways they couldn't function
for some time and forget thatthe therapy is foundational and
such a critical part of theirown healing journey. Clinically,
this is called distractionnonadherence and means like
people missing theirappointments or disengaging from
(46:15):
the therapist in other ways,only talking about superficial
things instead of the work thatyou're there to do. Or if you
have, maybe you're committed totreatment, but you have a
therapist who doesn't understandthis developmental struggle
that's happening as it's beenimpacted by trauma.
And so if they don't understandwhat's going on, they may not be
(46:40):
flexible enough or collaborativeenough to work with that or be
too rigid and actually fire theclient or the survivor instead
of working with them throughthis stage and offering some
flexibility while the survivornavigates this new level of
(47:01):
functioning and how to maintainit while still doing the
continued work of healing. Forthose with alcohol or drug or
other addictions, this is oftenthe time that people relapse. Or
if people have been stable onmedications, this is often when
they stop taking theirmedications instead of staying
on them because that's what washelping. So then Erickson's
(47:25):
fifth stage is called identityversus role confusion. Some of
the research is referring tothis now as the new self versus
the sick self.
Who am I as a survivor or evenbeyond a survivor, including all
of those aspects of me? Whoevermakes up the system and whatever
(47:46):
our roles are or whatever levelswe're able to work together or
not, just as we are with deep,deep compassion for ourselves.
What does that look like for me?What does healing look like for
me? How do I define who I am andwho I want to be?
(48:08):
Which is different than thatsick self that we were talking
about. And the sick self is theone who's defined only by the
abuse. So for example, when wehear those who have been in
recovery longer talking aboutfunctional multiplicity or
functional plurality, that is anew self perspective. As opposed
(48:30):
to a sick self perspective thatis, I was abused, I'm not
functioning, my world is fallingapart, I can't do this, it's too
hard, da da da. So the new selfis focusing on who I am besides
and beyond what happened to me.
Does that make the difference?So because functioning is
(48:52):
higher, one of the challenges ofthe struggle of this stage is
about unfocused ornonconstructive anger that
internalizes either examples ofor interactions with things that
disrupt healing. Negotiatingthis includes having to resolve
(49:17):
this rather than internalizingit. So this looks like several
different things. There may be aconnection aspect where you find
a community with other peoplewho are DID, like this podcast
or the online groups or, booksthat are helpful or you resonate
(49:39):
with in some way.
There may also be some sort ofcoming out process where you
tell, maybe there's a supportivefamily member that you tell
about the DID or a spouse thatyou tell about the DID or a
child or a best friend, orsomeone who is a safe supportive
person, and you let them knowabout your healing journey. Not
(50:00):
in a dependent way, not in aover disclosure where you're
unsafe way, but in anappropriate with healthy
boundaries kind of way thatallows you to have more support
than you had in the past whenyou were hiding from people or
not able to fully be yourself.Not seeking support from others
(50:21):
or from others like you is goingto lead to more isolation and
sort of leave you in theprevious stage. When this stage
of development is not resolved,it's going to look like those
cycles when we go back intodenial or we try to quit therapy
or we put the DID books away ordelete ourselves from the groups
(50:45):
or stop listening to podcasts orvideos that are actually helping
us, things like that.Disengaging from the process,
process, quitting therapy,missing appointments, things
like that is what this stagelooks like when it's not
resolving.
When it is resolving, it's moreabout reengaging in a new way
(51:08):
and exploring who am I comingout to yourself, coming out to
your therapist, coming out tosupportive people, making
connections based on the trustand the hope that you have then
empowered yourself with thecapacity to do your healing. It
is healing. That's what'shappening at this stage. The
(51:28):
sixth stage of recovery isintimacy versus isolation. This
stage of recovery is not so muchabout feelings or internal
dialogue or relationships orhappenings inside, so much as
connecting in intimaterelationships with others.
(51:50):
And by intimate relationships,it could have to do with finding
a life partner. It could have todo with seriously dating
someone. And it could even haveto do with actually making close
friends with healthy boundaries.So like Sasha and Taylor both
talked about not kissing yourfriends, not crossing
boundaries, loving someoneenough not to hurt them or
(52:13):
reenact trauma with them. And sohealthy relationships, close
friends, dating that is primaryrelationship or committed
partners in some way, andconnecting with others through
this.
Now the reason this is a bigdeal is because connecting
(52:35):
externally, or it could also bereconnecting with your previous
therapist after you quit or tooka time out or finding a new one
who's better for you at thisstage. It can look like that as
well. But the reason it's a bigdeal is because whether you're
reconnecting with new peopleinternally at this stage, or
(52:59):
whether externally you'reconnecting with others, it
brings you all the way back tothe first stage, back to trust
versus mistrust, just by thenature of your interactions. So
at this stage, there are lots ofthings that can be triggered,
lots of emotions that can betriggered, and lots of fears
(53:20):
that can be triggered. Notresolving this stage is going to
look like relapse or selfloathing coming back or suicidal
ideation coming back because youare doubting or questioning the
trust versus mistrust stage.
(53:41):
Does that make sense? So it'sanother phase that also can look
very personality disorder and isoften misdiagnosed like stage
one or two that is misdiagnosedas personality disorder. On the
other hand, if you have longterm continuity of care with one
(54:01):
therapist or stablerelationships with people you
are committed to or dating or ina partnership with, then that
brings value to your ability todiscern what is safe and strong
in you and for you. It alsoprevents relapses and prevents
(54:25):
reemergence of new alters anddisruptions to the recovery
process. As you resolve thisphase successfully, it will also
include layers of mastering someof that internal anger or need
(54:45):
for justice and bring healingeven to the layer of so called
persecutors or protectors andmaybe even some peace for the
first time because of thestability and level of safety,
as well as the qualityconnections that you have
through intimacy.
Stage seven in recovery takesErickson's generativity versus
(55:10):
stagnation and finds a lifestrategy for living well despite
what you have been through. Sorather than your life being
focused on what is wrong andwhat has happened to you and
what has not gone well. Itfocuses on this is my context,
this is my circumstances, andnow I know who I am, and so this
(55:34):
is what I want my life to looklike. And this is how I can
function well within thatcontext. And that's using your
agency and that same empowermentto say, I am autonomous and I am
on my own and I am able tofunction in these ways,
(55:55):
redefining what your life shouldlook like for you because it's
your life.
It's the stage where you findpurpose and also may for the
first time be able to navigateconflicts without damaging
yourself or others in theprocess. The last stage of
recovery, integrity versusdespair, has to do with taking
(56:19):
this new life that you've nowdefined for yourself and
focusing on what changes youhave made despite what you've
been through, and then lookinghonestly at what that is. And
that may include mourning theloss of some things you had but
had to let go of, like unhealthyrelationships. It may include
(56:42):
mourning the loss of what youdidn't have. Like maybe you
never had nurturing parents.
Or maybe because of what you'vebeen through, you weren't able
to have children or to havechildren the way you thought you
would. Or maybe you have anotherlayer of shame from some of
those stages that had somerelapses while you continued
recovery. This phase is aboutreviewing your life, the context
(57:06):
of what you've been through, andhaving compassion for yourself
to process those feelings, bringclosure for grief, and reaffirm
your new life as you have sortof risen from the ashes. So
maybe that was more informationthan you wanted to know, but
that's how trauma impacts EricErickson's psychosocial stages
(57:31):
of development. And so it's moreabout how each of those phases
impacts the alters inside andhow each of the alters have
their own presentation of thosedifferent stages and what that
looks like for a system as awhole wherever they are in the
process of healing.
(57:53):
This is your very resilience,the ability to overcome symptoms
or setbacks or challenges orcircumstances that are due to
what you've already beenthrough, but empowering yourself
to live beyond just survivingthose things into creating your
own life now using positivity,adaption skills, learning,
(58:20):
coping skills, relaxationtechniques, and all the aspects
of healing that you get throughgood therapy and good support
and even hope, all of which youhave every right to regardless
of what you have endured in thepast. I hope that helps some and
(58:42):
answers the listener'squestions. Feel free to contact
us anytime on systemspeak dotorg to ask any other questions
you have for the podcast or forme specifically. I'm glad to
help. Thanks.
Thank you for listening. Yoursupport of the podcast, the
(59:03):
workbooks, and the communitymeans so much to us as we try to
create something together that'snever been done before, not like
this. Connection brings healing,and you can join us on the
community atwww.systemsspeakcommunity.com.
We'll see you there.
Over:
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about
Dissociative Identity Disorder.If you are new to the podcast,
we recommend starting at thebeginning episodes and listen in
order to hear our story and whatwe have learned through this
endeavor. Current episodes maybe more applicable to long time
listeners and are likely tocontain more advanced topics,
(00:33):
emotional or other triggeringcontent, and or reference
earlier episodes that providemore context to what we are
currently learning andexperiencing. As always, please
care for yourself during andafter listening to the podcast.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Hello, this is Doctor. E. I got a question for
me from a listener. So I wantedto address that today before we
talk about other things. Thelistener says that they watched
a video about age and DID andthat it was a good video, which
(01:27):
is great.
I don't know which video Ididn't I was not given the link
for the video, so I can'treference who did it. And, if we
can find that out, we can addthe link on the blog. But this
listener says that age withalters in a system was explained
(01:49):
as a time capsule of when theevent that brought them
happened. So I didn't see thevideo, so I'm not sure what
they're talking about or how toclarify that or explain it. But
(02:10):
what I would assume that thatsystem was doing was trying to
explain how they understand thatdifferent alters inside can have
different ages.
And so it sounds like for them avisual or symbol or metaphor of
the time capsule is what worksfor them. So that's great. That
(02:35):
is an excellent explanation.What I could add to that is just
simply that everyone inside doeshave different ages. We are,
some of us older and some of usyounger and different ages
scattered in between there.
(02:56):
I don't know if it's the same aswhat this other system was
explaining, but as far as us andour system, I can only speak for
us. What we understand is thatsome of them are sort of stuck
in time. And so the ones who areyounger, it's because something
(03:17):
significant happened at thattime. So either there was some
trauma or incident or relationalissue where that alter no longer
could progress or was not neededto function in the same role.
And so someone else took overthat job, or there was further
(03:39):
splitting internally due to anissue.
And I want to be careful withthat word because I know some
people are pretty sensitive toit because terms like split
personality are not appropriate.And especially if we're talking
about a structural dissociationkind of perspective where it's
about development, thesedifferent states have not joined
(04:03):
together through normaldevelopment because it was
disrupted, because that processwas interrupted by trauma. But
at the same time, there can alsobe a sense of splitting as far
as like a little s as far asdifferent roles being shared
(04:25):
amongst other people that nowfeel like new alters. So for
example, if we had one alterthat specifically only dealt
with the parents And then for usin our system, when some
specific things happened, thenthat sort of that job, for lack
(04:48):
of a better phrase, that job gotsplit, lower s, meaning our
survival depended on having totake care of those issues or
take care of ourselves bysharing that job. And so it
(05:11):
became where the one who wasonly dealing with the parents
was then two who dealt with theparents, one for the mother and
one for the father.
That's just an example from oursystem, and it was due to some
specific issues. And if in thecontext of that story, it would
(05:31):
make sense, in the context ofthe greater narrative, it would
make sense. But I think ratherthan arguing about theories on
points of this, I think it'smore about part of it is
specific to each system andunique to them. Part of it is
specific to the trauma itself,the type of trauma, who the
(05:55):
abusers were, where the traumawas coming from, and how the
survivor really needed to, whatthey needed to do to be able to
get through those moments anddeal with that, what was going
on. So in this case, when I usethe phrase splitting, I am not
necessarily talking about thepersonality splitting, although
(06:18):
in some language that's how thephrase is used.
But I think that's more aboutthe limits of language rather
than what's actually happening.Because really what happened was
it wasn't so much that theperson split as much as the
roles and jobs and mechanism fordealing with what was going on,
(06:42):
that got split. So rather thanthis job being assigned to one
person, this job is now assignedto two people. And that for us
is how some of the new alterscame about or presented
themselves with the things thatthey are now responsible for,
some of those positive and someof those being traumatic. At the
(07:06):
same time, the reverse canhappen as well.
So for example, a few weeks ago,Emma Z and Emma T and MS shared
a little bit about becoming moreco conscious. And part of that
is possible because of thecooperation and communication.
And part of that is possiblebecause those roles have
(07:26):
shifted. And so it's not thatthey've gone away or come
together or somehow turned fromingredients into a brownie mix,
which someone told us once. It'snot so much that as that the job
itself has changed and therequirements for doing that job
have changed.
And so they can share thoseresponsibilities and the need
(07:50):
for the wall between them is notso great or so desperate, so to
speak. And so it's more aboutthat wall coming down through
cooperation and communicationand compassion for each other,
but then also the responsibilitybeing shared. So they are still
(08:11):
all three present, but they arenot as distinct as they once
were, but not yet entirelytogether either. So I don't know
if that's too off track, butpart of it depends on what
theory of dissociation yousubscribe to or how you
understand dissociation. Sowhatever video this listener
(08:31):
saw, I'm sure that I'm sure thatthat system was presenting as
best that they knew how, whatfits for their system and what,
how their system understandsthat process.
The other piece is thatdevelopmentally these needs
change over time. So a sevenyear old being abused has
(08:57):
different needs than a threeyear old being abused who has
different needs than a 14 yearold being abused. I don't mean
that any of those are okay withbeing abused or should be
abused. I just mean the needs indealing with it, the kind of
help they need in healing, thekind of care that they need to
(09:19):
feel responded to and rescuedand made safe and helped and
comforted will look differentbased on those ages as well as
other factors like theirpersonality or other triggers
they have or who they are as aperson, as a unique individual
within the system. So when we'retalking about littles or young
(09:42):
alters, this is part of thatsame thing where there may be an
infant inside because such andsuch happened to that infant
specifically.
And so they stayed an infantbecause that happened. Or it
could be because this was goingon as an infant and then that
(10:02):
stopped happening as an infantand now something else is
happening instead. That'sanother part inside that's
dealing with what's happeningnow. Maybe it's a good thing.
Maybe that infant was rescued,and so now there's someone else
who's dealing with foster care,for example, while the infant is
still back, is stuck in timedealing with what happened to
them in the first place.
(10:23):
Or maybe the type of abusechanged or the person who was
abusing them changed. There's somany factors, but I promise that
everyone that's inside a systemis there for a reason. And I
promise that every part of asystem has some kind of role or
contribution or strength thatthey bring the system that makes
(10:50):
them very important and helpsexplain why they are there. So
even someone like Sasha, who onher podcast talks about being
silly or being this or beingthat and blowing off she does
not have an important role or ajob, that's part of her job. I,
for example, am not going tojust hang out with the husband
(11:11):
or play with the children or gomake snacks when some people
want something to eat.
That's just not my personality.It's not what I need, but it is
a need in our family externally.And it is a need for us as a
system as a whole. And so thethings that she does or the
things that, or who she hasbecome as she herself has grown
(11:35):
up and as much as she has grownup in her own way and the role
that she plays both internallyor externally is very important
and just as important as what Ido. It's just a different job.
So the same thing for me. It'simportant that we as a system
pay our bills just like anyother person. It's important
(11:58):
that we as a system developintellectually or academically
or professionally. And so that'swhat I did. I went to school, I
got a job, I gained experience,I developed my own practice,
like all of these things thatare a part of what is unique and
(12:19):
specific to me.
But those are sort of mylimitations because we have
these walls between us. I am notable to then also go home and
deal with the family. I justdon't. But also, Sasha could not
come to my office and do what Ido all day. So it's very unique
and very specific.
(12:40):
And it's the same with thechildren. If there are different
children or younger alters orlittles internally in a system,
they're there for a reason and arole. And some of those may very
well be related to traumadirectly or specifically, and
some of them may not be. Andthen the same as with the adults
where some of them are helpersor some of them are protectors,
(13:03):
That may happen with the littlesas well. There may be some who
are more protective of the otherlittles or some who help connect
the other littles to thetherapist or the other littles
to the functioning adults in thesystem or the littles to safety
or like John in our system ispretty much the one who's in
(13:25):
charge of making sure we eatonce in a while, right?
So they all have different rolesthat they play and gifts that
they bring and strengths thatthey add and contribute toward
the functioning of the system.No matter what functioning looks
like at whatever particularseason in life that the system
(13:48):
has been in or is now. So thislistener who says that they
watched this video about littlesand age and DID says that in the
video, they based how functionala little is off of the Eric
(14:09):
Erickson's stages ofpsychosocial development. She
said that their alters aretreated all like adults, but she
doesn't explain what makes thelittles want to go to the park
or color or that kind of thingif they are adults. So I was
hoping you would explain that.
Okay. So again, I can't speakfor that system, and I don't at
(14:33):
all mean to insult or isolateanyone because I don't know what
video was seen and I have notwatched the video myself. And so
I'm not sure what they weredoing. I don't understand this
perspective at all. In fact, Iwould probably say I disagree
with it, but also I have notseen it.
So I can't actually disagreewith it. But treating all of
(14:57):
their alters like adults issomething I don't understand
because unless all of them areadults. Because if they're
little or stuck in a time loop,then they are not going to be
present or functioning in anadult way. So I'm not sure what
that part is about, about whyyou would treat littles like
(15:18):
adults other than we as asystem, as a whole, are
responsible for the system as awhole. And so there's that, but
I'm not sure why you would treatlittles like adults or what that
is referring to or meaning.
So I'll have to follow-up onthat and ask about it. But the
other piece about littleswanting to go to the park or
(15:41):
color or those kinds of thingsare exactly that because they
are age appropriate activitiesfor those alters at that ages.
And so when the system was atthat age, if they had this
particular interest or thatparticular interest, or maybe
have gained a new hobby orinterest as the system has grown
(16:02):
or maybe during the season ofhealing and therapy, they may
have new safe items of comfortor, activities that they enjoy,
but they are still ageappropriate for that alter,
whatever their age is, whetherthat is Sasha going out to the
movies with the husband orwhether that's John going to the
(16:24):
park, those are age appropriateactivities. So that's why the
littles would want to becausethey enjoy those things because
it's age appropriate for wherethey are in development. Does
that make sense?
So I'm not sure what was said inthe video, and I apologize for
(16:45):
responding to a video I've notactually seen, but I wanted to
answer the listener's questions.As far as Erickson's stages of
psychosocial development, I candefinitely talk about that, but
I don't know how you wouldmeasure how functional a little
is from that because traumadisrupts all of that. So it's
(17:07):
not going to be an accuratemeasure if someone is using that
to assess Littles internally.Using Erickson's stages of
psychosocial development is notgoing to be an accurate
assessment necessarily oflittles inside a system that has
(17:31):
been traumatized or is pluralfrom trauma because trauma
disrupts all of that. So eitherI'm not understanding what the
video was about, which is verylikely since I've not seen it,
or this is a system that hasmade a lot of progress through
therapy and is definitely not atthe beginning stages because
(17:51):
otherwise that's not consistentat all.
So when we talk about EricErickson's psychosocial stages
of development, we are talkingabout how he laid out
development for all people.Well, I mean, he was really
studying white people in the1960s, but that is assumed to be
(18:14):
applicable to all people. But helaid out development through the
lifespan and talked about ateach stage of development what
the crisis was of that period ofdevelopment. So for example,
from infant to 18, about thattime is trust versus mistrust.
(18:38):
18 to three years is autonomyversus shame and doubt.
Three to five years isinitiative versus guilt. Five to
thirteen years is industryversus inferiority. Thirteen to
twenty one years is identityversus role confusion. Twenty
(18:59):
one to thirty nine years isintimacy versus isolation. Forty
to sixty five years isgenerativity versus stagnation.
And 65 and older is egointegrity versus despair. But
when we talk about these stagesin the context of development,
(19:22):
it has a very different picture.So for trust versus mistrust,
for example, when we're aninfant, the infant is learning
about whether the world isreliable or not, and it's the
time of object relationsdevelopment. So is my mother
still there even when I can'tsee her? Is she going to meet my
(19:45):
needs or not?
Will I get food when I'm hungry?Will my diaper be changed when
I'm dirty? All of these needsthat teach the child where the
world is safe or not. So it'snot just about if the child
knows the world is safe, thenthey're in a different stage of
development. Or if the childthinks the world is not safe,
(20:10):
then it means they're still atthis stage.
That's not what it means at all.What it means is that if at this
age, they determine that trustwins out over mistrust, then
they also develop traits likehope, for example. But if
mistrust wins out over trustbecause their needs are not met,
(20:37):
then they develop insteaddefense mechanisms instead of
hope such as denial andprojection. So what that's gonna
look like is an access todisorder that, or a personality
disorder that begins to developat this time because we stay
safe through defense mechanismsas opposed to we have hope that
(21:00):
even when things are hard, wewill still be okay. Does that
make sense?
And so I don't know how youwould tell by that how
functional a little is unlessthey just have a different
understanding than the clinicalunderstanding of the
psychosocial stages ofdevelopment. So really, what
(21:24):
happens in the past, whether thealter is a little who's stuck in
time or whether it's a grownperson that's a different alter
altogether, what that looks likeis when something new happens,
which defense mechanisms doesthe person use to protect
(21:44):
themselves based on whathappened back then at that time?
So is that person able todevelop hope because in some
way, through some means, even ifit wasn't the primary caregiver,
like for us, we've alreadytalked about or shared last week
about good neighbors that we hadnearby. So through that, those
(22:09):
experiences, if we can developsome hope, then we have access
to that even when things arereally, really hard now instead
of only denying our role inthings or denying how hard
things are or projecting ourissues onto others and things
(22:31):
that start to look like what'ssometimes called borderline
personality disorder. The othertime this shows up, this very
early, early dynamic is in theprocess of therapy itself.
When a system is in therapy andthey are trying to trust the
(22:54):
therapist, which is going to behard if you've had trauma
anyway. But if you had trauma atthat age between trust and
mistrust when that developmentalcrisis was going on, then what
that's going to be looking likeis not just is this a safe
place, but are you a safeperson? And it's going to take
(23:17):
more time to trust thattherapist and engage with that
therapist, but then also staywith that therapist. And if you
take that into context ofculture and society today, when
it is so hard to find atherapist who knows about DID or
who is trained to help with DIDor you have access to that
(23:42):
therapist because of insuranceor how much it costs or time or
like us, even distance, we drivefour hours just one way to the
therapist and then four hoursback again. So all of those
layers make it more complicated.
The thing that is going to lookdifferent in the alters who have
(24:04):
struggled with thisdevelopmental piece is one alter
who's stuck in time may thinkthat the therapist, that the
family put the therapist up tothis, or that the therapist will
tell the family, or another onemay just think the therapist
(24:25):
just wants to take their money,things like that. So it's going
to present differently based onthe uniqueness of each alter,
but that development affects allof the alters as a system
because it's a system experienceat that age. The unique
perceptions of each alter willpresent the questions or the
(24:49):
crisis differently than eachother and uniquely to
themselves. Does that makesense? So maybe that's what the
video is talking about, thatthey can tell by how the present
crisis presents to each alter,what that means to different
ones.
Maybe that's what they meanabout being able to assess, but
(25:10):
just based on the stages alone,that's not a thing. I don't
understand what that was talkingabout. So for example, we just
had the difficult weekend of theanniversary of the mother being
killed by the drunk driver.Right? And so we all have as a
system some sort of response tothat based on how we as a system
(25:35):
developed through each of thesestages of Erickson's
psychosocial development.
But uniquely as alters, that'sgoing to present differently to
us. So so it's M who's in crisisbecause she should have been
driving that day. So it's herfault the mother died, which is
(25:58):
not at all true. But she's theone who's going to present that
and feel that and express thatbecause that's her unique
perspective internally. WhereasSasha in a completely different
perspective based on herexperiences through those same
developmental periods, is goingto be like, no, it's good that
(26:22):
she's gone and we're okay withthat.
So get over yourself, which Ibelieve was a direct quote and
not necessarily appropriate atthe time or helpful. Helpful.
This is also the same reasonthat boundaries with therapists
are really important andconnection with therapists are
really important. Again, if youread some works by Patricia De
(26:46):
Jong, for example, about shamebased therapy and dealing with
shame in therapy, you can't healthose attachment pieces without
authentic, vulnerableconnection. And you need that
with a therapist if there'sgoing to be actual healing
because of these verydevelopmental stages that we're
(27:07):
talking about today.
That said, you also need goodboundaries, not just for your
safety or the safety of thetherapist or so that everyone's
healthy, all of that is true.But part of it is if the
therapist is doing too much workor too intrusive into the system
without letting the system solvethings on their own internally,
(27:31):
still being responsive, stillconnecting, still being
authentic, even being vulnerablewhen it's appropriate, but
letting the system solve theproblems internally, that's the
only way that they're going tobe able to adopt a hopeful
recovery because they're meetingthat trust versus mistrust need.
(27:54):
That is what is gonna be astrength based individualized
unique client driven recoveryplan. Anything else is going to
foster dependency in anunhealthy way and also delay the
healing because the therapist isdoing too much work or
retraumatizing the client withthe poor boundaries in some
(28:17):
really severe examples. Thesecond stage, autonomy versus
shame and self doubt kind ofcomes right into this next.
It's about the struggle forpersonal control and separation
from others. Think of that inthe experience of trauma where
you have no control over what'shappening to you, but you also
(28:41):
can't get away from them. Sothere's this layer where as a
two or three year old, you'resupposed to be feisty and
independent and becoming yourown person. The reason they call
it the terrible twos is becausetoddlers are separating
themselves not from the parent,but from the baby that they were
(29:04):
and from the parent who parentedthat baby. And the toddler is
initiating relationship buildingwith a new parent within the
same system of the parent childdynamic.
So it's almost like it goes backto structural dissociation
(29:24):
without the dissociation. Soit's almost like there's a
developmental stage of parentsas well. But when there's abuse
involved at this early age ortrauma or neglect of some kind,
then not only does the childhave no control over what's
happening to them, they alsocan't escape it. So the trauma
(29:46):
keeps happening because theycan't get away, but it also
interferes with normaldevelopment when there should be
some normal healthy separation.This goes right back into how
survivors can so easily fallinto unhealthy relationships
with either partners or with badtherapists because they are
(30:10):
seeking either control or tryingto regulate that safety.
So what this looks like isactually there's a word for it
called attunement. So if yousearch on YouTube for the flat
face experiment, This shows youwhat attunement is. It has a
(30:32):
mother with a child in a highchair, and it shows their normal
interactions, how they copy eachother and mimic each other, and
they're so in tune and it's verytender and sweet. But then for
the sake of the experiment, themother turns away and when she
looks back at the child, shemaintains a flat face and does
(30:53):
not respond. So you can see thechild go through all three of
the stages of first trying toget the mother's attention and
then trying to get mad becausethe child is hurt.
And so they're tuning into thatwavelength of the pain the
mother is sending out. And thenthe third thing the child does
(31:16):
is physically, literally turninghis face away because the mother
has not responded and so that'sas flat as the baby can go
because the only way to findattunement was to match the
disconnect from the care of theparent that was not happening.
(31:36):
Does that make sense? It's kindof mind boggling. It's like
watching the process ofdissociation from the outside at
that early age.
And then, of course, becauseit's an experiment and so they
want to repair thatmisattunement and bring it back
to attunement, then they showthe mother repair that and
recover and get the baby'sattention and comfort and
(31:59):
console him and everything'sokay. Whether you think that the
baby was traumatized by this ornot, that brings it full circle
to show how that can berealigned if it's repaired. But
with trauma, that's neverrepaired. So what's supposed to
happen at this stage ofdevelopment is the crisis is
supposed to resolve with thecognitive understanding that
(32:22):
healing is not returning to theideals of the past, but moving
forward with your life as it isnow. So this is why things like
functional multiplicity orfunctional plurality are so
powerful because it's not aboutyou are unwell until you have
(32:44):
been completely healed, whichlooks like this, which we say it
looks like this.
Because that's the psychosocialdevelopment of not having
control and not havingseparation. Someone else is
telling you what healing lookslike. So that's still just a
second stage of development. Butsurvivors are healing beyond
that. And because we have theseonline communities, we're able
(33:07):
to connect and have compassionwith each other and grow more
than what we have been in thepast because we have access to
all of this.
And so we have an understandingnow that, no, it's not okay for
you as the therapist or you asthe researcher to tell me that
(33:28):
this is what healing looks likebecause it's an incongruent and
inconsistent message. If theyare saying that we are
disordered because of amnesiaand because of the distress of
this disorder, the dissociativeidentity disorder, then as Sarah
(33:50):
Clark shared in one of hervideos, which I can link to, and
from power to the plurals, thenwhen we work through cooperation
and communication and compassionenough with ourselves internally
to bring down those amnesiawalls and are no longer
(34:11):
distressed by what's happening,then even though we are still
plural, we are no longerdisordered. And that is an
example of meeting thisdevelopmental stage and
progressing beyond it. That isabout being autonomous rather
than dependent on therapy. Nowyou can still seek therapy and
(34:33):
some people may want to go fullintegration or this or that or
maybe need help with therapy forthis specific issue or that
specific issue.
And that's fine. I'm not at allsaying therapy is a bad thing.
Therapy is a good thing whenthere's connection with a good
therapist and everybody isfeeling safe and participating
to degree they want to and areable to. But when you don't have
(34:58):
that or you are stuck in thisdevelopmental phase, then what
that looks like amongstdifferent insiders would be
externalizing anger,internalizing anger within the
system. So persecutors or whatare those who get labeled as
(35:19):
persecutors, quote unquotepersecutors, these are stuck at
this stage just trying toprotect the system, just trying
to have some control over what'shappening for the good of the
system, and trying to escapewhat is not good of the system.
Like, what is not good for thesystem. Like it's really that
(35:41):
simple. It may also look likeconflict with others or engaging
in self harm or other selfdamaging behaviors. It may be
intense emotions. It may includelosses or changes in
functioning.
And these can be misdiagnosed asthings like mood disorders. So
(36:04):
again, just like struggles atthe first developmental stage is
going to be misdiagnosed as apersonality disorder, struggles
at this stage is going to bemisdiagnosed as a mood disorder.
So does it make sense? It's notreally about littles or how what
age they are or meeting thisstage and being that age. It's
(36:25):
more about how the system as awhole presents and what that
presentation looks like underthat umbrella distinctly amongst
the different alters in waysthat are unique to each of them.
So when you're doing therapywell, when you're healing well
(36:46):
on your own, when you're talkingabout functional plurality or
functional multiplicity, thenwhat this looks like as this
stage resolved is healthyboundaries internally and
externally and more of anindependent posture both
internally and externally. Andeven some peer caretaking,
(37:09):
meaning not codependency becausethis is not stage one, but more
like being able to supportothers who being able to support
others who have gone throughsimilar things or issues you can
see more clearly because theyare not yours or just being
(37:32):
present with others withoutbeing overwhelmed by it or
invaded by it. Does that makesense? The next stage is
initiative versus guilt. Orreally in modern day language,
what he's talking about isn'tinitiative like, oh, I'm willing
to try this or oh, I'll startthis before someone else starts.
(37:52):
It's not about that. Takinginitiative in this context if we
translate it from what the, howthe word was used in the 60s to
how we use it today. It would bemore of a concept of
empowerment, of empowering yourown self. And minimizing what is
not functioning and focusing onwhat is functioning. So what
(38:15):
that means is more about insteadof focusing on all the things
that are wrong and all thethings you can't do well and all
the challenges that you have asa system, it's about focusing on
what you are doing well, how youare caring for yourself, and the
strengths and positives in theway that that gets applied
internally as well.
(38:36):
So again, using the example ofpersecutors, instead of being
afraid of them, instead oftrying to keep them locked up,
instead of, punishing them orbeing just generally disliking
them or blaming them or labelingthem. Instead, identifying with
what strengths they give thesystem and how they help the
(38:58):
system and using that for goodand helping them fulfill their
potential rather than also beingheld back because they are the
only ones with not a safe place,which holds ultimately the
system back as well. So theempowerment phase would be about
building new skills, being ableto do new things that you
(39:19):
couldn't before, new copingskills. That said, the guilt
stage isn't so much guilt asself blame. So again, there's
been a language shift over timethat doesn't quite explain it so
well when you just read thewords now, like on someone's
chart or something.
When he's talking about theguilt stage, he's talking about
(39:41):
being mean to yourself aboutwhat's not good. So instead of
focusing on the strengths ofpersecutors for example, it's
more like what's wrong with youor if you're depressed, why
don't you snap out of this. Orif you're not functioning as
well externally because you'redoing so much internally, then
(40:03):
being hard on yourself, whydon't you work? Why don't you
get out more? Why don't you dothis?
All of that. Which really areterrible questions because the
answer to that is because I'mdoing so much inside. There's so
much happening inside, that'sreally where I'm using all of my
energy or all of my spoons orall of my functioning. I can be
(40:25):
very high functioning internallyeven if I'm not high functioning
externally. So I get to definefor myself what high functioning
means and looks like.
When people get stuck in thisdevelopmental phase, in this
struggle, how that presentsexternally is about the strong
(40:49):
emotions with the need to repairit right now. I need to feel
better right now, like immediategratification. But doing that
work is so difficult and takesso much time, this is where
people fall apart. So what thatoften looks like is sex
addiction, drug addiction,alcoholism, suicidal behaviors,
(41:13):
self harm behaviors. All of thisis about feeling I am not
empowered and I it's too much tohandle and I can't make it
better.
It's never gonna get it better.All of these sorts of thoughts
which are misdirected because ofnot having the help or support
(41:34):
to understand the struggle isfor empowerment. So yes, we
can't solve it all now, but howcan you empower yourself for
this or this or this or whateverthat looks like for you? That's
how that can be resolved. And itresolves by using what you've
learned from the previous stagesof development.
(41:55):
So for example, you hold on tohope. You hold on to hope when
hope is all you have. And youhold on to your own autonomy. I
have the power to help myself.So no, I can't control what
other people do, and no, I can'talways change my circumstances,
(42:16):
but I always, always have theright and the power and the
capacity to choose how I respondto those things.
So you take the hope you learnfrom this stage one development
and the empowerment you learnfrom this stage two development,
and that's how you're able toget through the struggle of
(42:37):
stage three. And when you don't,what that looks like are the
fugue states of running away orthe suicidal ideation or
changing jobs or changing whereyou live or changing where in
the world you live. These kindsof things to physically escape
(42:57):
is what that looks like. Andthis is when the comorbid
personality disorder getsmisdiagnosed. So that means
there's a personality disorderlike borderline, for example,
and then also some alcohol ordrug use.
This is the stage where it'svery important to remember
(43:17):
things like spoons. When you'rein this developmental phase, you
have to focus on reasonablegoals that build your self
esteem and help you rememberyour self worth, connect you to
external networks for support,and also in some way find ways
(43:37):
to serve other people because ofthe way that empowers you and
gives you opportunity to beoutside your own headspace and
helping others who need it. Thatbrings you to the next stage,
which is stage four of recovery,action versus inaction, which
would be the modern way to talkabout Erickson's fourth
(44:01):
developmental stage of industryversus inferiority. So the
struggle at this stage askquestions like, do you just want
to stay sick, which is differentthan working on healing. And you
get to define healing.
So I'm not saying that DID isbeing sick or that being plural
(44:26):
is being sick. I mean, beingsick as in unwell because trauma
has done this to me and I'mgoing to stay in this state
instead of doing something aboutit. Or the energy stage of
activity versus isolation. Am Igoing to let them win is the
(44:46):
question of this stage. Am Igoing to let that abuse win?
Am I going to just drown in thisor am I going to use that hope
and that empowerment and thatcapacity to respond to what I've
been through, to find out who Iam and be myself, and do
(45:07):
something to connect with otherswho also need to know those
lessons. At this stage ofdevelopment, there is an ability
to seek out greater levels ofpurposeful work and more
meaningful activities or hobbiesAnd as well, while also
struggling with the questionabout how to continue therapy or
(45:33):
improving yourself for your ownhealing, but without
jeopardizing how far you've comealready just because it's hard
work to keep going. It's a timewhen people often quit therapy
right when they need it mostbecause they become distracted
(45:54):
by being able to function in allthe ways they couldn't function
for some time and forget thatthe therapy is foundational and
such a critical part of theirown healing journey. Clinically,
this is called distractionnonadherence and means like
people missing theirappointments or disengaging from
(46:15):
the therapist in other ways,only talking about superficial
things instead of the work thatyou're there to do. Or if you
have, maybe you're committed totreatment, but you have a
therapist who doesn't understandthis developmental struggle
that's happening as it's beenimpacted by trauma.
And so if they don't understandwhat's going on, they may not be
(46:40):
flexible enough or collaborativeenough to work with that or be
too rigid and actually fire theclient or the survivor instead
of working with them throughthis stage and offering some
flexibility while the survivornavigates this new level of
(47:01):
functioning and how to maintainit while still doing the
continued work of healing. Forthose with alcohol or drug or
other addictions, this is oftenthe time that people relapse. Or
if people have been stable onmedications, this is often when
they stop taking theirmedications instead of staying
on them because that's what washelping. So then Erickson's
(47:25):
fifth stage is called identityversus role confusion. Some of
the research is referring tothis now as the new self versus
the sick self.
Who am I as a survivor or evenbeyond a survivor, including all
of those aspects of me? Whoevermakes up the system and whatever
(47:46):
our roles are or whatever levelswe're able to work together or
not, just as we are with deep,deep compassion for ourselves.
What does that look like for me?What does healing look like for
me? How do I define who I am andwho I want to be?
(48:08):
Which is different than thatsick self that we were talking
about. And the sick self is theone who's defined only by the
abuse. So for example, when wehear those who have been in
recovery longer talking aboutfunctional multiplicity or
functional plurality, that is anew self perspective. As opposed
(48:30):
to a sick self perspective thatis, I was abused, I'm not
functioning, my world is fallingapart, I can't do this, it's too
hard, da da da. So the new selfis focusing on who I am besides
and beyond what happened to me.
Does that make the difference?So because functioning is
(48:52):
higher, one of the challenges ofthe struggle of this stage is
about unfocused ornonconstructive anger that
internalizes either examples ofor interactions with things that
disrupt healing. Negotiatingthis includes having to resolve
(49:17):
this rather than internalizingit. So this looks like several
different things. There may be aconnection aspect where you find
a community with other peoplewho are DID, like this podcast
or the online groups or, booksthat are helpful or you resonate
(49:39):
with in some way.
There may also be some sort ofcoming out process where you
tell, maybe there's a supportivefamily member that you tell
about the DID or a spouse thatyou tell about the DID or a
child or a best friend, orsomeone who is a safe supportive
person, and you let them knowabout your healing journey. Not
(50:00):
in a dependent way, not in aover disclosure where you're
unsafe way, but in anappropriate with healthy
boundaries kind of way thatallows you to have more support
than you had in the past whenyou were hiding from people or
not able to fully be yourself.Not seeking support from others
(50:21):
or from others like you is goingto lead to more isolation and
sort of leave you in theprevious stage. When this stage
of development is not resolved,it's going to look like those
cycles when we go back intodenial or we try to quit therapy
or we put the DID books away ordelete ourselves from the groups
(50:45):
or stop listening to podcasts orvideos that are actually helping
us, things like that.Disengaging from the process,
process, quitting therapy,missing appointments, things
like that is what this stagelooks like when it's not
resolving.
When it is resolving, it's moreabout reengaging in a new way
(51:08):
and exploring who am I comingout to yourself, coming out to
your therapist, coming out tosupportive people, making
connections based on the trustand the hope that you have then
empowered yourself with thecapacity to do your healing. It
is healing. That's what'shappening at this stage. The
(51:28):
sixth stage of recovery isintimacy versus isolation. This
stage of recovery is not so muchabout feelings or internal
dialogue or relationships orhappenings inside, so much as
connecting in intimaterelationships with others.
(51:50):
And by intimate relationships,it could have to do with finding
a life partner. It could have todo with seriously dating
someone. And it could even haveto do with actually making close
friends with healthy boundaries.So like Sasha and Taylor both
talked about not kissing yourfriends, not crossing
boundaries, loving someoneenough not to hurt them or
(52:13):
reenact trauma with them. And sohealthy relationships, close
friends, dating that is primaryrelationship or committed
partners in some way, andconnecting with others through
this.
Now the reason this is a bigdeal is because connecting
(52:35):
externally, or it could also bereconnecting with your previous
therapist after you quit or tooka time out or finding a new one
who's better for you at thisstage. It can look like that as
well. But the reason it's a bigdeal is because whether you're
reconnecting with new peopleinternally at this stage, or
(52:59):
whether externally you'reconnecting with others, it
brings you all the way back tothe first stage, back to trust
versus mistrust, just by thenature of your interactions. So
at this stage, there are lots ofthings that can be triggered,
lots of emotions that can betriggered, and lots of fears
(53:20):
that can be triggered. Notresolving this stage is going to
look like relapse or selfloathing coming back or suicidal
ideation coming back because youare doubting or questioning the
trust versus mistrust stage.
(53:41):
Does that make sense? So it'sanother phase that also can look
very personality disorder and isoften misdiagnosed like stage
one or two that is misdiagnosedas personality disorder. On the
other hand, if you have longterm continuity of care with one
(54:01):
therapist or stablerelationships with people you
are committed to or dating or ina partnership with, then that
brings value to your ability todiscern what is safe and strong
in you and for you. It alsoprevents relapses and prevents
(54:25):
reemergence of new alters anddisruptions to the recovery
process. As you resolve thisphase successfully, it will also
include layers of mastering someof that internal anger or need
(54:45):
for justice and bring healingeven to the layer of so called
persecutors or protectors andmaybe even some peace for the
first time because of thestability and level of safety,
as well as the qualityconnections that you have
through intimacy.
Stage seven in recovery takesErickson's generativity versus
(55:10):
stagnation and finds a lifestrategy for living well despite
what you have been through. Sorather than your life being
focused on what is wrong andwhat has happened to you and
what has not gone well. Itfocuses on this is my context,
this is my circumstances, andnow I know who I am, and so this
(55:34):
is what I want my life to looklike. And this is how I can
function well within thatcontext. And that's using your
agency and that same empowermentto say, I am autonomous and I am
on my own and I am able tofunction in these ways,
(55:55):
redefining what your life shouldlook like for you because it's
your life.
It's the stage where you findpurpose and also may for the
first time be able to navigateconflicts without damaging
yourself or others in theprocess. The last stage of
recovery, integrity versusdespair, has to do with taking
(56:19):
this new life that you've nowdefined for yourself and
focusing on what changes youhave made despite what you've
been through, and then lookinghonestly at what that is. And
that may include mourning theloss of some things you had but
had to let go of, like unhealthyrelationships. It may include
(56:42):
mourning the loss of what youdidn't have. Like maybe you
never had nurturing parents.
Or maybe because of what you'vebeen through, you weren't able
to have children or to havechildren the way you thought you
would. Or maybe you have anotherlayer of shame from some of
those stages that had somerelapses while you continued
recovery. This phase is aboutreviewing your life, the context
(57:06):
of what you've been through, andhaving compassion for yourself
to process those feelings, bringclosure for grief, and reaffirm
your new life as you have sortof risen from the ashes. So
maybe that was more informationthan you wanted to know, but
that's how trauma impacts EricErickson's psychosocial stages
(57:31):
of development. And so it's moreabout how each of those phases
impacts the alters inside andhow each of the alters have
their own presentation of thosedifferent stages and what that
looks like for a system as awhole wherever they are in the
process of healing.
(57:53):
This is your very resilience,the ability to overcome symptoms
or setbacks or challenges orcircumstances that are due to
what you've already beenthrough, but empowering yourself
to live beyond just survivingthose things into creating your
own life now using positivity,adaption skills, learning,
(58:20):
coping skills, relaxationtechniques, and all the aspects
of healing that you get throughgood therapy and good support
and even hope, all of which youhave every right to regardless
of what you have endured in thepast. I hope that helps some and
(58:42):
answers the listener'squestions. Feel free to contact
us anytime on systemspeak dotorg to ask any other questions
you have for the podcast or forme specifically. I'm glad to
help. Thanks.
Thank you for listening. Yoursupport of the podcast, the
(59:03):
workbooks, and the communitymeans so much to us as we try to
create something together that'snever been done before, not like
this. Connection brings healing,and you can join us on the
community atwww.systemsspeakcommunity.com.
We'll see you there.
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