January 13, 2014 • 28 mins
Dr. E explains DID in the context of shame theory. The name Dr. E is a reference to what she is called at work because of her PhD; she is not a medical doctor or giving any therapeutic advice. She explains her understanding of dissociation in the context of Patricia DeYoung’s shame theory, and explains why most “acting out” is really misattunement, and how healing comes through connection (attunement) with others. She references the “Still Face Experiment” which can be searched and found on YouTube. Some clarification between abuse and neglect is explained, but no graphic or personal examples are given.
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Content Note: Content on this website and in the podcasts is assumed to be trauma and/or dissociative related due to the nature of what is being shared here in general. Content descriptors are generally given in each episode. Specific trigger warnings are not given due to research reporting this makes triggers worse. Please use appropriate self-care and your own safety plan while exploring this website and during your listening experience. Natural pauses due to dissociation have not been edited out of the podcast, and have been left for authenticity. While some professional material may be referenced for educational purposes, Emma and her system are not your therapist nor offering professional advice. Any informational material shared or referenced is simply part of our own learning process, and not guaranteed to be the latest research or best method for you. Please contact your therapist or nearest emergency room in case of any emergency. This website does not provide any medical, mental health, or social support services.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Over
about Dissociative IdentityDisorder. If you are new to the
podcast, we recommend startingat the beginning episodes and
listen in order to hear ourstory and what we have learned
through this endeavor. Currentepisodes may be more applicable
to long time listeners and arelikely to contain more advanced
(00:32):
topics, emotional or othertriggering content, and or
reference earlier episodes thatprovide more context to what we
are currently learning andexperiencing. As always, please
care for yourself during andafter listening to the podcast.
Thank you.
(00:55):
Hello. I was sitting in myoffice today, and I got an email
that was giving me notice thatmy podcast had been published.
This was done by Sasha, as sheshared in the podcast of episode
one. I knew that it was coming,but I didn't know she had done
it or that it was I knew thatshe had done it. We had talked
(01:22):
about it and spoken about it abit, but I did not know that she
was going to take such astorytelling approach.
I don't know if that was helpfulor not, but it's definitely not
my style. And I do want this tobe informational as well. I am
the part of the system. Thealter, I guess, is the technical
(01:43):
term, but that's not one we useinternally. I am the one who
does work every day and has ajob and functions in that way.
I have very little contact withthe family and I have as little
contact with others inside as Iam able to get away with simply
(02:03):
so that I can focus andfunction. I'm not yet able to do
that very well when I am overlyinvolved clinically or otherwise
with those inside. And I do tryto stay out of that other than
being pulled into squabbles anddisagreements and that sort of
(02:24):
thing. So at times I do playreferee a bit internally, but I
would rather that not be my joband I have to do less of that
now that we have a goodtherapist. At work they call me
(02:44):
Doctor.
E and so you can use that as myname. I don't really want to
otherwise be involved here andI'm not a medical doctor nor am
I giving any kind of advice hereso let me clarify that but
that's just what I'm called atwork If we are going to do a
podcast I do want some of it tobe informational that would be
(03:07):
my preference although I knowthat's not as fun for Sasha So I
will leave the storytelling upto her, and you can skip hers or
mine or listen to both. I didnot plan on participating so
much, but I thought she wasgoing to share more of a
clinical perspective. I don'tknow why I made that assumption.
I guess that's not consistentwith who she is, but I didn't
(03:28):
know we I did not realize shewas just going to do so much
storytelling.
With that preface aside, let metalk a bit more about what
dissociative identity disorderis. This is from my
understanding of clinicalliterature from therapists that
have explained it to me, as wellas research we have done
ourselves online. Ourunderstanding is that
(03:52):
dissociation is along acontinuum from very mild that
everyone experiences to moresevere and complicated cases
like ours. Some examples of milddaydreaming would be a kid
looking outside the window atschool instead of focusing on
(04:14):
schoolwork, or highway hypnosiswhen adults are driving and, you
don't realize where the last fewmiles have gone because you've
listening to music or thinkingabout something and all of a
sudden you're five miles downthe road. And so you sort of
lost that time, but you stillknow where you are and you're
safe and you can put piecestogether and you're still on the
(04:34):
right track.
Those are some mild forms ofdissociation. There are many
different theories of whatcauses dissociation and how that
works. Some of them have verystrong schools of thought and a
following of people who veryfirmly believe this or another.
(04:56):
I will just take my approach ofmy understanding, so I'm not
saying that this is best orright or applies to everyone,
only that this is the part thatI understand thus far, and I
will share that with you from myown perspective. My initial
question when I heard even justthe word dissociative, I wanted
to know disassociating fromwhat?
(05:17):
I know what associating means.If you associate with others,
you call them your friends orspend time with them. If you
associate with certainactivities, maybe you're a
sports fan or you have a hobby.If you associate with something,
it means you are connected tosomething. So I assumed that
(05:41):
disassociation meant that youwere not associated with
something, but I wanted to knowwhat it was that we were not
associated with.
And what I discovered from, sortof a summary of my understanding
of the literature was that whatI am dissociated from or what we
are dissociated from has severallayers actually. But at the
(06:06):
neurobiological level, it reallyhas to do with being separated,
a separation between the rightbrain and the left brain, and
that this disconnect happensduring development because of
neglect and trauma. So backingup a little bit, integration,
not meaning as a treatmentmodality for blending all parts
(06:30):
of an internal system into one.I don't mean that. I mean the
integration of a person asthey're developing, that this
comes through an interpersonal,like with self, the right brain
and the left brain are connectedtogether.
And intrapersonal with others,meaning you're able to connect
(06:52):
with others outside yourself.And then intersystemic, meaning
yourself with self. So the partof you that's sad and the part
of you that's angry and the partof you that's happy, you have
access to all of those parts.And that's what integration is
as a developing child growingup. And I'm not talking about am
(07:15):
not talking again, I am not letme emphasize, because it's such
a poorly used words and I thinksuch a badly used tactic for
treatment.
But I'm not talking aboutintegration as in an end stage
of therapy where everybodydisappears and there's just one
person. I'm not talking aboutthat or any kind of application
about that. I'm talking about asopposed to the whole self
(07:42):
developing as a child, that theantithesis of that is what is
dissociation. And so those threelayers, the connection with
yourself, the ability to connectwith others outside yourself,
and the ability for you toconnect with different aspects
of yourself, that is what shouldbe associated if you are healthy
(08:07):
and have good object relationsdevelopment and have a safe
environment. And not just safe,but responsive.
And so I say should, meaning notthat you're bad if you don't,
but should as in ideally that'swhat would happen for a healthy,
happy, well loved, and wellcared for child. So when there's
(08:30):
dissociation, it's because thosepieces are not there. And some
people may be more geneticallypredisposed to it or other
causes as well. But primarily,it's these three systems being
disrupted in some way, orinterfered with in some way. And
this is really important, Ithink, because you cannot
(08:52):
compare different traumastories.
One person's trauma story istheir story, and another
person's trauma story is theirstory. And you can't compare
them because the impact of thoseare different for each
individual based on those threelayers, the interpersonal,
intrapersonal, andintersystemic. And so the
(09:15):
connections or disconnectionsthat happen there are different
based on different people'sdevelopment and experiences. And
part of that is not just werethey neglected or were they
abused or how bad was theirtrauma. I think that's really
unfair to do to people or forsurvivors to do to each other.
(09:35):
Part of it has to do with shame.If you read a lot of the shame
research literature, likePatricia De Jong for example, if
you read her materials, what youlearn is how much was what other
people thought or criticized orresponded or did not respond
(09:55):
when you needed them to. Howmuch of that happened. That has
to do with as much of the traumaas whatever kind of specific
abuse or neglect caused, and isreally its own kind of neglect.
So what I'm trying to say thatabuse is not just, oh, this
(10:17):
happened to me and it hurt me.
But it's also really apresentation from a caregiver
that my needs are more importantthan your needs. That's the
message a caregiver gives whenthey're abusing someone. And
then neglect is more like, Idon't care what your needs are,
and I'm not going to do anythingabout them. So it's not just my
(10:40):
neglect story of I was hungry,or I didn't have shoes, or this
or that, But also just that yourneeds were not recognized. And
so that's one reason that youcannot compare trauma stories
because everyone's needs aredifferent.
Everyone's needs are unique tothem and their situation and
their experience at anydifferent time in their life.
(11:03):
And my needs may be differentone day than another. And so if
those needs are not met or paidattention to or responded to,
then that is neglect. Even if itdoesn't fit some other state
definition of neglect orsomething like that. That's also
how there's so much trauma thatis undocumented because when the
(11:24):
state intervenes with childrenor different situations like
this happen, then there are,when the state intervenes or
there's other situations likethis, may be checklists or
assessments or different thingsthat they go through to measure
does this qualify to count asneglect or does this how does
(11:45):
this measure up against thestandards for abuse according to
the law?
But those are all statutoryissues. Those are not
interpsychic issues. That's notabout what's happening in the
internal experience of thechild. So what happens is when
there's ongoing abuse or ongoingneglect according to those
definitions, not just a policereport or some other sort of
(12:07):
documentation, then what you getis chronic shame, which is shame
without repair. Meaning youcontinue to have shame placed
upon you because you have needsthat are being ignored or needs
that are not being met or otherpeople's needs are more
important than yours.
This is often what gets calledpersonality disorders when
(12:28):
people are adults. I thinkthat's often misdiagnosed and
it's unfair, although if itgives someone access to
treatment, then that's great.But really, underlying
everything, what it often isabout, is about people or
children especially, but also indomestic violence situations and
(12:49):
other cases, children are takingthe brunt of other people's
problems when their needs arenot as important as the needs of
their caregiver or the caregiverdoesn't care what their needs
are. And that can be really,really simple, like maybe you're
hungry, but your parent is busydoing something else. If that
(13:13):
happens a lot, then it sends themessage that your needs are not
as important as theirs, and sothat's abuse even though it's
not the same as being spanked orsomething else.
Traumatic shame comes in whenyou deal with all of this and
these layers of shame, butthere's also a social isolation
(13:35):
component to it. So not only domy needs not matter, but now I
have been rejected withoutability to escape, which means
my needs won't ever matter. Andthat's when we start feeling
hopeless and helpless, which isway too much of a burden for an
adult, much less a child. So thepathology of it, if you're going
(14:00):
to call it that, which again Idon't think is a fair word, but
the way it gets looked at fromthe mental health community or
mental health providers, thepathology comes in when there's
this disconnect between me andthe world, between me and
others, or me within myself. I'munable to feel sad, or I can't
(14:20):
stop feeling sad, or I cannotregulate my anger, or I don't
know how to grieve, or I don'tknow how to resolve this trauma
Because it's never been modeled.
No one's ever been present withyou in that process. So how are
you supposed to learn? So that'swhen we're talking about what
disintegrates is thepersonality. And whether that's
(14:45):
one personality internally or alot of them, regardless of your
theory of personalitydevelopment, what disintegrates
is the personality and theinternal structure that should
be developing through objectrelations as your needs are met.
So the dissociation is thatdisintegration because of what
(15:12):
you have been through and whatyou have experienced.
So part of that is what you havebeen through externally, the
abuse or the neglect from yourneeds not being met and your
needs not mattering to thosearound you, but also the
internal experience as youcontinue to develop and become
more and more aware that yourneeds were not being met and
(15:33):
your needs didn't matter andthat often this was painful,
whether that was direct abuse inthe classic sense or some other
form. So when there isdisintegration or
disassociation, what happens isthat all of that is still inside
you, all of those experiences,all of those visceral
experiences, the emotions thatgo with them, but they are
(15:56):
disconnected from each other. Soin different parts of the brain,
which, some of the videos onlineare really great about
explaining, but the differentparts of the brain are really
good at separating differentparts. So maybe the smell of
that memory is in this part ofthe brain, but the visual of
this memory is in that part ofthe brain, and the sound of the
(16:18):
memory is in this part of thebrain. Or maybe the emotion you
had in that time is at this partof the brain.
It's all divided up, if youwill, and stays there. It's not
like it goes away. It doesn'tjust move on because the other
people who caused these issueshave moved on or don't care or
(16:40):
haven't noticed. It still juststays there. It's registered in
the brain and all of it, everybit of it, is looking for
expression.
And so when we go to the far endof the continuum, all the way
into dissociative identitydisorder, then those different
parts of those differentexperiences are very refined and
(17:02):
grow up through otherexperiences becoming more and
more refined and more and moredeveloped as distinct
individuals until what you haveis dissociative identity
disorder. So then not only arethere all these personalities or
parts or alters that existinternally as part of a system,
(17:23):
but each of them have their ownsmell memories or their own
visual memories or their ownsound memories, or whatever the
sensory bases are. And this ispart of why grounding skills are
so important, which we can talkabout another time. But it
conflicts with those messages inthe brain, the pain signals that
the brain is trying to send, anddisrupts those signals. And so
(17:45):
can alleviate or bring somecomfort to them rather than the
pain gates being open and thesignal just continuing to be
shot through those gates becauseit's waiting for relief or
trying to find resonance withwhat should have been a
connection, but where there wasneglect or abuse in the past.
(18:06):
So it's like there are circuitsin the brain, and everything
that you go through as a childor even as an adult, everything
that you go through gets codedinto your brain, but not all of
it gets processed all the way inthe full circuit. And so that's
part of why we need therapy orthe videos that are on YouTube
(18:26):
or the groups on Facebook. Like,it's all amazing support. And
the reason it's so important isbecause those moments of
connection help complete thatcircuit. And that's where that
shame is resolved, even if it'sa tiny, tiny bit at a time.
Because finally, is hearing you,someone is receiving your
(18:47):
message of I have this need,Someone is reflecting back to
you their awareness of thatneed. And it all goes all the
way back to infancy. So if youwant to Google on YouTube, those
of you who are so good atYouTube, if you want to Google
on YouTube, look up this stillface experiment. I'll try to put
a link in it in the podcastdetails, but at least, you could
(19:13):
look it up later. I know this isa podcast, but you could look it
up later.
The still face experiment. Andit's a mother and a baby. And
the mother and the baby arelooking at each other. They're
playing together. The baby'svery responsive.
The baby's cooing. And themother's making faces to smile
(19:36):
and be in tune with the baby,right? And so, but then they did
an experiment of what happens.And the mother puts on a very
flat expression, does notrespond to the baby's cooing or
knees or anything. And you seeall three of those levels play
out with the baby.
The baby does all three things.One is the baby first continues
(20:01):
initiating those sounds that themother was mimicking back and
tries to connect through themother that way. When the mother
still does not respond, then thebaby gets upset and tries to
even physically push the babyaway, which is exactly what
happens with borderlinepersonality disorder, right? The
come here, go away, I hate you,don't leave me. It's the same
(20:24):
thing.
They're trying to get in tunewith someone, but no one will
get in tune with them. It's notthat their behavior is bad or
that they are evil or terriblepeople are failing. Like, none
of that is true. And it'shorrible misrepresenting
stereotypes of those peoplebecause all they're trying to do
is attune with someone just likethis infant in the video. And
(20:46):
then when that still doesn'twork, then the baby matches the
mother by turning the baby'shead.
The baby turns its head andlooks away because the mother's
not making eye contact orresponding, and so the safest
thing the baby has to do is tomatch that. So imagine that for
those of you who not onlysuffered abuse or neglect, but
(21:07):
maybe also had mentally illparents or depressed parents or
something where there was notconnection, your needs not being
met, dissociation makes completesense. So part of the context of
healing comes through thepresence of another, whether
(21:36):
that's a friend or a safe personor a therapist or the podcast or
videos out there, something.Those moments where you're like,
Oh, this person gets it. Theyunderstand.
That's what that is. That'sattunement. What abuse and
neglect are, are misattunement.And that's when they're shame
(21:56):
imposed or cycles of shame orthose circuits are not completed
because you have to have anotherperson. You have to have that
other expression for you to beable to express to and that be
reflected back to you forhealing to occur.
So with dissociation, the personhas literally dissociated
(22:19):
themselves from the situation orexperience or memory that is too
violent, too traumatic, or toopainful to assimilate into the
conscious self. That's what itsays on WebMD. But you can see
how there's so much more to itthan that. There's so much more
playing out. It's also why,especially with this particular
(22:41):
disorder or any other disordersthat have trauma involved, why
medications alone cannot helpand why case management alone
cannot help or why badtherapists are so dangerous.
You've got to have a goodtherapist and a good connection
(23:02):
to be able to express thesethings and come full circle for
that circuit to be completed andfor healing to happen, whatever
healing looks like to you. Likeit's you and your system and you
get to decide what healing lookslike to you. But for those
things to get processed and forhealing to happen, there has to
be that expression to anotherwhere there's attunement and
(23:26):
that is reflected back to youand present with you. Like at
the end of the still faceexperiment where they close off
the experiment and repair thatdamage with the baby by the
mother reconnecting with thebaby. So it does not have to be
like some sort of substitutemother, although there are some
cases where that's very helpful,But there does need to be
(23:46):
someone who can, for lack ofbetter words, repair that
through a connection and throughunderstanding and through new
insights and that feeling ofsomeone has heard me, my needs
matter, and someone can help memeet my needs.
(24:06):
I'm not talking about in anunhealthy way where there's
codependency or you're wantingsomeone else to fix you, but
someone else who is presentthere with that work and someone
else who can reflect that workto you and even your progress in
it and the struggle when it'shard and all of those things
letting the experience be realto you because it's your
(24:28):
experience and no one else getsto say what it is or describe it
for you or tell you it's notreal because they don't know and
they can't know because it's allbrain circuitry and how
everything has been coded intothe brain. That said, to get an
actual diagnosis of dissociativeidentity disorder, there needs
(24:51):
to be, two or more distinctidentities. There's also an
inability to recall key personalinformation, so some sort of
amnesia. Like for example, asSasha mentioned, Emma does not
remember anything from beforeshe got married. She also
(25:17):
doesn't know that she knows ofme now because the therapist has
told her, but she has no ideathat, that I am not at all
interested in being married toher husband or having any kind
of contact with him.
It's just not who I am or what Ineed. And so there's no
(25:39):
awareness there of that. Inother situations there may be
more awareness like I can I amable to speak with Sasha and
know what's going on or see heror meet with her or talk to her
and she is with me as well butEmmett does not have those
skills yet and not that level ofawareness yet? These alters or
(26:02):
parts or different aspects ofthe different identities in a
person with a dissociativeidentity disorder could have any
kind of identity that isimportant to them or there for
some reason and that should berespected. They may have
(26:23):
distinct ways of talking orstanding or walking or behaving,
different preferences, differentlikes of food, even different
health statistics.
There may be different heartrates or blood pressures, things
like that. Changing betweenpersonalities or parts or alters
(26:47):
is called switching. And it'sjust that one is coming out
front and another one is goingback or together they may be co
conscious and able to share alittle bit of the fronting.
That's not something we have yetso I don't really want to talk
more about it because I don'tknow more about that other than
what I've seen on some of theYouTube videos. So again, those
(27:07):
YouTube videos can be prettyhelpful.
We just wanted to be sure thatthere is a podcast for those who
need that instead of only thevideos. I can't really describe
what DID is like from Emma'sperspective. Maybe she can do
that sometime when she's ready.But, I did not expect even to
(27:29):
participate, honestly, when wedid the other one or when Sasha
told me about it. But she justtold stories the whole time, and
I wanted there to be a littlemore information as well.
So I don't know if any of that'sbeen helpful, but that's all I
have to share today and thankyou for listening. I hope that
there is something there and Iwill continue to share other
(27:50):
information as I learn it orappreciate your feedback for
anything that I misunderstood ordid not get correct or that you
have a different perspective on.I appreciate that. Thank you.
(28:12):
Thank you for listening.
Your support really helps usfeel less alone while we sort
through all of this and learntogether.
Over
about Dissociative IdentityDisorder. If you are new to the
podcast, we recommend startingat the beginning episodes and
listen in order to hear ourstory and what we have learned
through this endeavor. Currentepisodes may be more applicable
to long time listeners and arelikely to contain more advanced
(00:32):
topics, emotional or othertriggering content, and or
reference earlier episodes thatprovide more context to what we
are currently learning andexperiencing. As always, please
care for yourself during andafter listening to the podcast.
Thank you.
(00:55):
Hello. I was sitting in myoffice today, and I got an email
that was giving me notice thatmy podcast had been published.
This was done by Sasha, as sheshared in the podcast of episode
one. I knew that it was coming,but I didn't know she had done
it or that it was I knew thatshe had done it. We had talked
(01:22):
about it and spoken about it abit, but I did not know that she
was going to take such astorytelling approach.
I don't know if that was helpfulor not, but it's definitely not
my style. And I do want this tobe informational as well. I am
the part of the system. Thealter, I guess, is the technical
(01:43):
term, but that's not one we useinternally. I am the one who
does work every day and has ajob and functions in that way.
I have very little contact withthe family and I have as little
contact with others inside as Iam able to get away with simply
(02:03):
so that I can focus andfunction. I'm not yet able to do
that very well when I am overlyinvolved clinically or otherwise
with those inside. And I do tryto stay out of that other than
being pulled into squabbles anddisagreements and that sort of
(02:24):
thing. So at times I do playreferee a bit internally, but I
would rather that not be my joband I have to do less of that
now that we have a goodtherapist. At work they call me
(02:44):
Doctor.
E and so you can use that as myname. I don't really want to
otherwise be involved here andI'm not a medical doctor nor am
I giving any kind of advice hereso let me clarify that but
that's just what I'm called atwork If we are going to do a
podcast I do want some of it tobe informational that would be
(03:07):
my preference although I knowthat's not as fun for Sasha So I
will leave the storytelling upto her, and you can skip hers or
mine or listen to both. I didnot plan on participating so
much, but I thought she wasgoing to share more of a
clinical perspective. I don'tknow why I made that assumption.
I guess that's not consistentwith who she is, but I didn't
(03:28):
know we I did not realize shewas just going to do so much
storytelling.
With that preface aside, let metalk a bit more about what
dissociative identity disorderis. This is from my
understanding of clinicalliterature from therapists that
have explained it to me, as wellas research we have done
ourselves online. Ourunderstanding is that
(03:52):
dissociation is along acontinuum from very mild that
everyone experiences to moresevere and complicated cases
like ours. Some examples of milddaydreaming would be a kid
looking outside the window atschool instead of focusing on
(04:14):
schoolwork, or highway hypnosiswhen adults are driving and, you
don't realize where the last fewmiles have gone because you've
listening to music or thinkingabout something and all of a
sudden you're five miles downthe road. And so you sort of
lost that time, but you stillknow where you are and you're
safe and you can put piecestogether and you're still on the
(04:34):
right track.
Those are some mild forms ofdissociation. There are many
different theories of whatcauses dissociation and how that
works. Some of them have verystrong schools of thought and a
following of people who veryfirmly believe this or another.
(04:56):
I will just take my approach ofmy understanding, so I'm not
saying that this is best orright or applies to everyone,
only that this is the part thatI understand thus far, and I
will share that with you from myown perspective. My initial
question when I heard even justthe word dissociative, I wanted
to know disassociating fromwhat?
(05:17):
I know what associating means.If you associate with others,
you call them your friends orspend time with them. If you
associate with certainactivities, maybe you're a
sports fan or you have a hobby.If you associate with something,
it means you are connected tosomething. So I assumed that
(05:41):
disassociation meant that youwere not associated with
something, but I wanted to knowwhat it was that we were not
associated with.
And what I discovered from, sortof a summary of my understanding
of the literature was that whatI am dissociated from or what we
are dissociated from has severallayers actually. But at the
(06:06):
neurobiological level, it reallyhas to do with being separated,
a separation between the rightbrain and the left brain, and
that this disconnect happensduring development because of
neglect and trauma. So backingup a little bit, integration,
not meaning as a treatmentmodality for blending all parts
(06:30):
of an internal system into one.I don't mean that. I mean the
integration of a person asthey're developing, that this
comes through an interpersonal,like with self, the right brain
and the left brain are connectedtogether.
And intrapersonal with others,meaning you're able to connect
(06:52):
with others outside yourself.And then intersystemic, meaning
yourself with self. So the partof you that's sad and the part
of you that's angry and the partof you that's happy, you have
access to all of those parts.And that's what integration is
as a developing child growingup. And I'm not talking about am
(07:15):
not talking again, I am not letme emphasize, because it's such
a poorly used words and I thinksuch a badly used tactic for
treatment.
But I'm not talking aboutintegration as in an end stage
of therapy where everybodydisappears and there's just one
person. I'm not talking aboutthat or any kind of application
about that. I'm talking about asopposed to the whole self
(07:42):
developing as a child, that theantithesis of that is what is
dissociation. And so those threelayers, the connection with
yourself, the ability to connectwith others outside yourself,
and the ability for you toconnect with different aspects
of yourself, that is what shouldbe associated if you are healthy
(08:07):
and have good object relationsdevelopment and have a safe
environment. And not just safe,but responsive.
And so I say should, meaning notthat you're bad if you don't,
but should as in ideally that'swhat would happen for a healthy,
happy, well loved, and wellcared for child. So when there's
(08:30):
dissociation, it's because thosepieces are not there. And some
people may be more geneticallypredisposed to it or other
causes as well. But primarily,it's these three systems being
disrupted in some way, orinterfered with in some way. And
this is really important, Ithink, because you cannot
(08:52):
compare different traumastories.
One person's trauma story istheir story, and another
person's trauma story is theirstory. And you can't compare
them because the impact of thoseare different for each
individual based on those threelayers, the interpersonal,
intrapersonal, andintersystemic. And so the
(09:15):
connections or disconnectionsthat happen there are different
based on different people'sdevelopment and experiences. And
part of that is not just werethey neglected or were they
abused or how bad was theirtrauma. I think that's really
unfair to do to people or forsurvivors to do to each other.
(09:35):
Part of it has to do with shame.If you read a lot of the shame
research literature, likePatricia De Jong for example, if
you read her materials, what youlearn is how much was what other
people thought or criticized orresponded or did not respond
(09:55):
when you needed them to. Howmuch of that happened. That has
to do with as much of the traumaas whatever kind of specific
abuse or neglect caused, and isreally its own kind of neglect.
So what I'm trying to say thatabuse is not just, oh, this
(10:17):
happened to me and it hurt me.
But it's also really apresentation from a caregiver
that my needs are more importantthan your needs. That's the
message a caregiver gives whenthey're abusing someone. And
then neglect is more like, Idon't care what your needs are,
and I'm not going to do anythingabout them. So it's not just my
(10:40):
neglect story of I was hungry,or I didn't have shoes, or this
or that, But also just that yourneeds were not recognized. And
so that's one reason that youcannot compare trauma stories
because everyone's needs aredifferent.
Everyone's needs are unique tothem and their situation and
their experience at anydifferent time in their life.
(11:03):
And my needs may be differentone day than another. And so if
those needs are not met or paidattention to or responded to,
then that is neglect. Even if itdoesn't fit some other state
definition of neglect orsomething like that. That's also
how there's so much trauma thatis undocumented because when the
(11:24):
state intervenes with childrenor different situations like
this happen, then there are,when the state intervenes or
there's other situations likethis, may be checklists or
assessments or different thingsthat they go through to measure
does this qualify to count asneglect or does this how does
(11:45):
this measure up against thestandards for abuse according to
the law?
But those are all statutoryissues. Those are not
interpsychic issues. That's notabout what's happening in the
internal experience of thechild. So what happens is when
there's ongoing abuse or ongoingneglect according to those
definitions, not just a policereport or some other sort of
(12:07):
documentation, then what you getis chronic shame, which is shame
without repair. Meaning youcontinue to have shame placed
upon you because you have needsthat are being ignored or needs
that are not being met or otherpeople's needs are more
important than yours.
This is often what gets calledpersonality disorders when
(12:28):
people are adults. I thinkthat's often misdiagnosed and
it's unfair, although if itgives someone access to
treatment, then that's great.But really, underlying
everything, what it often isabout, is about people or
children especially, but also indomestic violence situations and
(12:49):
other cases, children are takingthe brunt of other people's
problems when their needs arenot as important as the needs of
their caregiver or the caregiverdoesn't care what their needs
are. And that can be really,really simple, like maybe you're
hungry, but your parent is busydoing something else. If that
(13:13):
happens a lot, then it sends themessage that your needs are not
as important as theirs, and sothat's abuse even though it's
not the same as being spanked orsomething else.
Traumatic shame comes in whenyou deal with all of this and
these layers of shame, butthere's also a social isolation
(13:35):
component to it. So not only domy needs not matter, but now I
have been rejected withoutability to escape, which means
my needs won't ever matter. Andthat's when we start feeling
hopeless and helpless, which isway too much of a burden for an
adult, much less a child. So thepathology of it, if you're going
(14:00):
to call it that, which again Idon't think is a fair word, but
the way it gets looked at fromthe mental health community or
mental health providers, thepathology comes in when there's
this disconnect between me andthe world, between me and
others, or me within myself. I'munable to feel sad, or I can't
(14:20):
stop feeling sad, or I cannotregulate my anger, or I don't
know how to grieve, or I don'tknow how to resolve this trauma
Because it's never been modeled.
No one's ever been present withyou in that process. So how are
you supposed to learn? So that'swhen we're talking about what
disintegrates is thepersonality. And whether that's
(14:45):
one personality internally or alot of them, regardless of your
theory of personalitydevelopment, what disintegrates
is the personality and theinternal structure that should
be developing through objectrelations as your needs are met.
So the dissociation is thatdisintegration because of what
(15:12):
you have been through and whatyou have experienced.
So part of that is what you havebeen through externally, the
abuse or the neglect from yourneeds not being met and your
needs not mattering to thosearound you, but also the
internal experience as youcontinue to develop and become
more and more aware that yourneeds were not being met and
(15:33):
your needs didn't matter andthat often this was painful,
whether that was direct abuse inthe classic sense or some other
form. So when there isdisintegration or
disassociation, what happens isthat all of that is still inside
you, all of those experiences,all of those visceral
experiences, the emotions thatgo with them, but they are
(15:56):
disconnected from each other. Soin different parts of the brain,
which, some of the videos onlineare really great about
explaining, but the differentparts of the brain are really
good at separating differentparts. So maybe the smell of
that memory is in this part ofthe brain, but the visual of
this memory is in that part ofthe brain, and the sound of the
(16:18):
memory is in this part of thebrain. Or maybe the emotion you
had in that time is at this partof the brain.
It's all divided up, if youwill, and stays there. It's not
like it goes away. It doesn'tjust move on because the other
people who caused these issueshave moved on or don't care or
(16:40):
haven't noticed. It still juststays there. It's registered in
the brain and all of it, everybit of it, is looking for
expression.
And so when we go to the far endof the continuum, all the way
into dissociative identitydisorder, then those different
parts of those differentexperiences are very refined and
(17:02):
grow up through otherexperiences becoming more and
more refined and more and moredeveloped as distinct
individuals until what you haveis dissociative identity
disorder. So then not only arethere all these personalities or
parts or alters that existinternally as part of a system,
(17:23):
but each of them have their ownsmell memories or their own
visual memories or their ownsound memories, or whatever the
sensory bases are. And this ispart of why grounding skills are
so important, which we can talkabout another time. But it
conflicts with those messages inthe brain, the pain signals that
the brain is trying to send, anddisrupts those signals. And so
(17:45):
can alleviate or bring somecomfort to them rather than the
pain gates being open and thesignal just continuing to be
shot through those gates becauseit's waiting for relief or
trying to find resonance withwhat should have been a
connection, but where there wasneglect or abuse in the past.
(18:06):
So it's like there are circuitsin the brain, and everything
that you go through as a childor even as an adult, everything
that you go through gets codedinto your brain, but not all of
it gets processed all the way inthe full circuit. And so that's
part of why we need therapy orthe videos that are on YouTube
(18:26):
or the groups on Facebook. Like,it's all amazing support. And
the reason it's so important isbecause those moments of
connection help complete thatcircuit. And that's where that
shame is resolved, even if it'sa tiny, tiny bit at a time.
Because finally, is hearing you,someone is receiving your
(18:47):
message of I have this need,Someone is reflecting back to
you their awareness of thatneed. And it all goes all the
way back to infancy. So if youwant to Google on YouTube, those
of you who are so good atYouTube, if you want to Google
on YouTube, look up this stillface experiment. I'll try to put
a link in it in the podcastdetails, but at least, you could
(19:13):
look it up later. I know this isa podcast, but you could look it
up later.
The still face experiment. Andit's a mother and a baby. And
the mother and the baby arelooking at each other. They're
playing together. The baby'svery responsive.
The baby's cooing. And themother's making faces to smile
(19:36):
and be in tune with the baby,right? And so, but then they did
an experiment of what happens.And the mother puts on a very
flat expression, does notrespond to the baby's cooing or
knees or anything. And you seeall three of those levels play
out with the baby.
The baby does all three things.One is the baby first continues
(20:01):
initiating those sounds that themother was mimicking back and
tries to connect through themother that way. When the mother
still does not respond, then thebaby gets upset and tries to
even physically push the babyaway, which is exactly what
happens with borderlinepersonality disorder, right? The
come here, go away, I hate you,don't leave me. It's the same
(20:24):
thing.
They're trying to get in tunewith someone, but no one will
get in tune with them. It's notthat their behavior is bad or
that they are evil or terriblepeople are failing. Like, none
of that is true. And it'shorrible misrepresenting
stereotypes of those peoplebecause all they're trying to do
is attune with someone just likethis infant in the video. And
(20:46):
then when that still doesn'twork, then the baby matches the
mother by turning the baby'shead.
The baby turns its head andlooks away because the mother's
not making eye contact orresponding, and so the safest
thing the baby has to do is tomatch that. So imagine that for
those of you who not onlysuffered abuse or neglect, but
(21:07):
maybe also had mentally illparents or depressed parents or
something where there was notconnection, your needs not being
met, dissociation makes completesense. So part of the context of
healing comes through thepresence of another, whether
(21:36):
that's a friend or a safe personor a therapist or the podcast or
videos out there, something.Those moments where you're like,
Oh, this person gets it. Theyunderstand.
That's what that is. That'sattunement. What abuse and
neglect are, are misattunement.And that's when they're shame
(21:56):
imposed or cycles of shame orthose circuits are not completed
because you have to have anotherperson. You have to have that
other expression for you to beable to express to and that be
reflected back to you forhealing to occur.
So with dissociation, the personhas literally dissociated
(22:19):
themselves from the situation orexperience or memory that is too
violent, too traumatic, or toopainful to assimilate into the
conscious self. That's what itsays on WebMD. But you can see
how there's so much more to itthan that. There's so much more
playing out. It's also why,especially with this particular
(22:41):
disorder or any other disordersthat have trauma involved, why
medications alone cannot helpand why case management alone
cannot help or why badtherapists are so dangerous.
You've got to have a goodtherapist and a good connection
(23:02):
to be able to express thesethings and come full circle for
that circuit to be completed andfor healing to happen, whatever
healing looks like to you. Likeit's you and your system and you
get to decide what healing lookslike to you. But for those
things to get processed and forhealing to happen, there has to
be that expression to anotherwhere there's attunement and
(23:26):
that is reflected back to youand present with you. Like at
the end of the still faceexperiment where they close off
the experiment and repair thatdamage with the baby by the
mother reconnecting with thebaby. So it does not have to be
like some sort of substitutemother, although there are some
cases where that's very helpful,But there does need to be
(23:46):
someone who can, for lack ofbetter words, repair that
through a connection and throughunderstanding and through new
insights and that feeling ofsomeone has heard me, my needs
matter, and someone can help memeet my needs.
(24:06):
I'm not talking about in anunhealthy way where there's
codependency or you're wantingsomeone else to fix you, but
someone else who is presentthere with that work and someone
else who can reflect that workto you and even your progress in
it and the struggle when it'shard and all of those things
letting the experience be realto you because it's your
(24:28):
experience and no one else getsto say what it is or describe it
for you or tell you it's notreal because they don't know and
they can't know because it's allbrain circuitry and how
everything has been coded intothe brain. That said, to get an
actual diagnosis of dissociativeidentity disorder, there needs
(24:51):
to be, two or more distinctidentities. There's also an
inability to recall key personalinformation, so some sort of
amnesia. Like for example, asSasha mentioned, Emma does not
remember anything from beforeshe got married. She also
(25:17):
doesn't know that she knows ofme now because the therapist has
told her, but she has no ideathat, that I am not at all
interested in being married toher husband or having any kind
of contact with him.
It's just not who I am or what Ineed. And so there's no
(25:39):
awareness there of that. Inother situations there may be
more awareness like I can I amable to speak with Sasha and
know what's going on or see heror meet with her or talk to her
and she is with me as well butEmmett does not have those
skills yet and not that level ofawareness yet? These alters or
(26:02):
parts or different aspects ofthe different identities in a
person with a dissociativeidentity disorder could have any
kind of identity that isimportant to them or there for
some reason and that should berespected. They may have
(26:23):
distinct ways of talking orstanding or walking or behaving,
different preferences, differentlikes of food, even different
health statistics.
There may be different heartrates or blood pressures, things
like that. Changing betweenpersonalities or parts or alters
(26:47):
is called switching. And it'sjust that one is coming out
front and another one is goingback or together they may be co
conscious and able to share alittle bit of the fronting.
That's not something we have yetso I don't really want to talk
more about it because I don'tknow more about that other than
what I've seen on some of theYouTube videos. So again, those
(27:07):
YouTube videos can be prettyhelpful.
We just wanted to be sure thatthere is a podcast for those who
need that instead of only thevideos. I can't really describe
what DID is like from Emma'sperspective. Maybe she can do
that sometime when she's ready.But, I did not expect even to
(27:29):
participate, honestly, when wedid the other one or when Sasha
told me about it. But she justtold stories the whole time, and
I wanted there to be a littlemore information as well.
So I don't know if any of that'sbeen helpful, but that's all I
have to share today and thankyou for listening. I hope that
there is something there and Iwill continue to share other
(27:50):
information as I learn it orappreciate your feedback for
anything that I misunderstood ordid not get correct or that you
have a different perspective on.I appreciate that. Thank you.
(28:12):
Thank you for listening.
Your support really helps usfeel less alone while we sort
through all of this and learntogether.
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