Season 2 - Ep 13 - Shadow of Fear - Sleazy Spader Springtime 7: "Sleaze the Day" No. 2 - The After Movie Diner Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Yes, that's right. It's the inevitably nonsensical, yet hopefully enjoyable
After Movie Diner. If you enjoy the show and have
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(00:36):
You can also donate to the show directly at aftermovie
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are found and rating and reviewing is possible. Even a
one star review provides useful insights on exactly the sort
of petty minded and wretched individual who negatively reviews free
entertainment they do not need to be consuming. So, with

(01:00):
out further dribbling charm cross, all.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Right, well, hey man, good to see you. Man. I
am hunkered down in my basement since Friday with the COVID.
I've had the rona. As they say, the first day
was hideous because it was all temperature. It was all,

(01:25):
you know, one hundred and three degrees one hundred and
two degrees temperature, and a lot of tossing and turning
and a lot of just in general uncomfortable headachey awful feelings.
Since then, what's really funny is every single day, although
the symptoms have been very mild, every single day the
symptom has slowly worked its way up my body. So

(01:47):
like the next day after the temperature was all chest,
then the next day was sort of throat, then it
was earache yesterday, and today it's sort of head, just
sort of a thick head. So I'm hoping that considering
it's reached the top of my brain and it can
go no further mat unless tomorrow my toes start hurting

(02:08):
and I'm like, damn it, it found a way to
go back down to the bottom and start again. I
think hopefully tomorrow I'm going to be okay.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
Well, yeah, that was kind of my experience.

Speaker 4 (02:17):
I think I went like months after having COVID, like
just getting the blockage out of my ears. I don't
know why that was, but like my ears were just
blocked for all that time. So yeah, yeah, that was
that's what I remember. Like it took a while to
get like and I got gum and stuff like that
was trying to like, you know, it's like going on
an airplane having a bad.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Air You put you put gum in your ear to
try and like suck out, the.

Speaker 3 (02:40):
Suck out whatever, yeah, the fluid or whatever.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
But then what ended up happening was you got the
gum stuck in there, and then you needed to get
like a very small vacuum cleaner, uh to try and
get that out. It was a long process, ladies and gems.
But we're here now, so mad in my so I've
been as I said, I've been living in the basement

(03:04):
for the last five days, and we're very lucky to
have a home where Kim and I can quarantine like
that because knock on Wood, as of as we sit
here right now, Kim knock on Wood has not been affected,
which is wonderful. I wore a mask anytime that I
went up onto the main floor. I obviously haven't had

(03:26):
a ton of symptoms, so it's not like I'm coughing
and sneezing and whatever. But in general, wonderful that Kim
did not get covidized. So we've been able to kind
of quarantine, which has been nice. I mean in the
bathroom down here, because it's the bathroom for the cinema. Kim,
when we were at the archive in Bridgeport one time
found a shower curtain that is all old black and

(03:48):
white movie posters of films like Psycho, Robinson Crusoe.

Speaker 5 (03:54):
On Mars Die, Die, My Darling, Curse the Undead, things
like that.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Right, So, when I am facilitating myself of the porcelain
for its intended use, which is a polite way of
saying taking a crap, I'm looking at the shower curtain
and it's got all these posters on it.

Speaker 5 (04:13):
You know.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
Sometimes I'm sat there and I'm looking at Let's kill
Uncle before Uncle kills everyone, which is one of my
favorite movie titles ever.

Speaker 5 (04:22):
That's a William Castle movie. You've got The Headless Ghost.
What I love.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
About some of the name the old names on this.
You know, I'll be reading them in funny voices or whatever.
And there's in The Headless Ghost you've got Liliant just
Sotaine or Sata, like this exotic name. Then you've got
Richard Leon like l Yo and just other thing. And
then the third person in the movie is Dave Rose, Oh,

(04:47):
Davy Rose. So I come up with these things in
my head where you know, there's these two exotic people
on set. You know, you're you're in an old Hollywood
movie film set. For The Headless ghost, and you've got
Lilian stan one of those like early debutante actresses, lounging
on a chaise long with a with a nightgown on,
having that talking about the vapors, you know. And then

(05:10):
you've got Richard Leon who's a brusque matador type with
a big mustache and a you know what I mean,
like the Hollywood in the forties kind of thing.

Speaker 5 (05:18):
I am original lyon.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
And I am Lilian Satan or whatever. And then there's
just a creaky door at the back of the set.
The door the flies open and goes hello on Davy Rose.
He's like this, like little cheeky, cheeky Cutney and that
was that was making me laugh a lot. So yeah,
So anyway, tonight tonight, when I was looking, and you know,

(05:40):
I try and pick different things out, I suddenly saw
that the tagline for the movie Curse of the Undead
is his body is an empty shell that hides a
lustful fiend. And I thought to myself, has there ever
been a better description of James right, he's a bondie

(06:04):
is an empty shell that hides a lustful scened And
I've never noticed that that was the tagline before, But
I think noticing that today that means to me that
we were meant to talk to Spada today.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
Yes, no, I think I think you're absolutely correct.

Speaker 4 (06:21):
I I mean this movie in general, it's just I am,
I can't believe how great it worked out. That, you know,
because you know, we were going through a couple of
different movies. But it's like, it's the kind of movie that,
like you, when you watch it, you're fortunate you've got
like a podcast to discuss it after it.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Rank No, exactly, it is everybody. It's Slazy spadea Springtime.
That's cue the theme music. Ah, wait, Slazy Spider Springtime.

Speaker 5 (06:51):
Well do to the show. Oh it's just Slazy Spy Springtime.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
I want you all to know that.

Speaker 5 (06:58):
You please, let's James Beda Lison. It's gone nowhere else
to go.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
So loosen all your bluses, give your nose a damn
good blow.

Speaker 5 (07:06):
Because you don't, we're going to give you one four cruel.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Then code. It's two thy and twenty four Sleazy Spy
up Time Show. It is two thousand and twenty falls.

Speaker 5 (07:29):
Sleepy Spy up.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
Time Show. And if you've been following me on social
media at all, you know that I'm not going to
explain it anymore. It's I know, it's summer. Shut the
fuck up. It's easy spade of springtime. And as I
said in a video this afternoon, Matt much in the

(07:54):
way that there is a culture right now, and I
love this culture. These are my people that embrace and
take Halloween to their heart all year round, minus the
trick or treating. They don't just knock on stranger's doors
on July, you know, fifteenth, be like, oh, governor, give
us some sweets. I don't know why everyone's everyone's cut
me this episode. That's it, because even in America has

(08:17):
little cutney orphans go around. Come on, geezer, give me
some sweets. Aw Nick, you watch will he be gone?
Ruffian be gone from my door? I take neither trick
nor treat from you. Aha, And then I yeah, anyway, sorry.
So as much as people keep Halloween in their hearts
all year round, you and me, Matt, and I think

(08:40):
a handful of other people. I think Jim probably still
secretly does, even though he doesn't want to do an
episode on it anymore. Andy Lunn, we know does. And
I think others keep sleazy spaders springtime in their hearts
all year round, and for that core bless them, Governor.
That is wonderful that they would do such a thing.
So we keep sleazy Spada springtime in a hearts all

(09:03):
year round, and therefore July, as far as VI concaid,
it's still sleezy spadea springtime. Also, it could be the
pep or spring one might get in their step when
they think about James Space. It doesn't have to people think springtime,
but it could also be the time I got a
spring in my step for Spader.

Speaker 4 (09:21):
Right right, exactly exactly well, because I think the other
thing too, is that I think sometimes with these things,
it's okay that you know, like like there's places here
in Philadelphia that have names of like this. You know,
like like I think there's a place called the Sansum
like Kebab House or something like that. It's no longer
on Sansum. It's on South Street, right, But it's like

(09:44):
they didn't want to be suddenly the Kabab place on
South Street. They're just like I'm gonna you know. It's
always like, yes, we know you're not on Sansum anymore,
but I also know that you had a company name
you want to keep the company name, and I think
sometimes that's you know, Sleezy Spader or same thing. We're
keeping the company name.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (09:57):
Oh, that's a great way to put it.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
It's fascinating as we come to the end, Matt, because
what I'm realizing is whether we've put the episode out
or not by the time we finish this run. And
after this we have the Pentagon papers and Porn and
myself or Mo von Helvat, sorry and myself come on

(10:20):
most it with one last name. I can't keep up.
Most sat there listening John. It's been like five years
that I've been von Helvat or whatever.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
Anyway, I didn't even realize.

Speaker 4 (10:32):
I know on Instagram he's Mo fun It, but I
didn't reconsider that it meant he was no longer more
poorn because I think on no budget Nightmares they still
do the Mo porn song for you.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
Well, I mean, in my heart, Matt, he will always
be Mo porn. That's or moseps I as I have
often called it. But no, so Mo will be doing
True Colors, which is the Cusack Spader joint. We'll do
the Pentagon papers to round out the season, and then

(11:02):
basically I personally will have watched every single Spader movie
in existence, except ones like A Killer in the Family
which he's just a bit part in the Homesman and
Shorts where he plays the bad guy. So apart from
those three other movies, I will have seen every single

(11:25):
I've also seen The Practice and all of Boston Legal
and at least three seasons of The Blacklist. I will
have watched all of James Montague, Ryebold Eldres Spader. I
believe those are his middle names that are out there.
And so what's nice is, Matt is as we build
up to the end of Sleazy Spader springtime, both in

(11:46):
the year twenty twenty four and in fact, because we
have simply ran out of films, it's gonna be nice
to sort of tie a little neat neat bow on it.
I can't think of another actor, even ones that I adore,
like Donald and some things, where I could complete their
entire filmography. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to kind
of get to the end of Spader and really be

(12:09):
able to kind of look back at a life lived.
And and what's funny is that you would have to
know that not only do we have the Sleazy Spader
Springtime franchise in the podcast which I've on the website
put if you go to podcasts and do the drop
down menu, Sleezy Spader Springtime is one of them, and
if you click on that, all episodes of Sleezy Spader

(12:31):
Springtime are there for your listening and doing pleasure. However,
there is also three more Spader films that we covered
as part of the Andrew McCarthy Newy's Eve Special. Then
there is a movie called Curtain Call, which I believe
in the US is called something Else. It All Came True. Yeah, yeah,
so it All Came True, which is also known as

(12:52):
Curtain Call. That movie I've seen and we started an
episode on. There was half an ep episode recorded between
Jim and I on that film, and we got halfway
through and I really liked the film and Jim didn't
like the film, and it was one of those things
where you're like, we just couldn't have a decent conversation

(13:14):
because you couldn't get a rift going because there was
no yes, and it was all no butts, yes, do
you know what I mean? And therefore you can't I
mean it not that you can't have a conversation with
someone who has a vastly different opinion. But when it's
such an average movie and both your opinions are like,
I didn't like the movie enough to defend it.

Speaker 5 (13:34):
Vehemently, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (13:37):
And Jim didn't dislike it enough to be like funny
about hating it.

Speaker 5 (13:41):
It was just this sort.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
Of you know, somewhere in the middle, and it wasn't
particularly interesting, so we knocked that episode on the head.
So that movie I've seen and we've started an episode on,
but you'll they'll never be one. And then there are
two movies Matt that he has done that I've obviously,
but that have never been part of Sleazy Spader Springtime

(14:05):
because I just feel like they're two of his big,
big movie It's almost like, what more would we have
to say? And that is Stargate and Secretary Now Stargate, Oh,
I think Dark and I talked about Stargate on a
Doctor Action and kick Ass Kid podcast, so maybe I
have done that on a podcast. I'll have to look

(14:27):
that up, because we've definitely done a bunch of Stargate
jokes Dark and I remember them, So maybe the only
one I've never podcasted about is Secretary but that's because
how many times could you just be how many times
could you just say? And then Spader was sleezy, Like
the whole movie, He's sleezy. I find secretary a hard

(14:50):
one to talk about, because ultimately, what Sleezy Spader Springtime
is about at its core is here is a regular
movie made sleezy by the presence of James Spader, Do
you know what I mean? Like this, there's and there's
a certain this movie has a certain aspect to it,
although you know, he's also a lascivious kind of character

(15:11):
as well.

Speaker 5 (15:12):
But most movies he's not.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
He's not playing a particularly sex sexually heightened character. Some are,
but some are like sometimes he's just a doctor or
a hit man or a lawyer or whatever. And yet
sex is is the entire undercurrent of every single thing
that he did.

Speaker 4 (15:33):
Yes, yeah, it's it's funny you're talking about about Stargate
and I never really, I've never really put his filmography
in timeline order. You know how people do you know,
on Twitter or or you know whatever, they do these
sort of like engagement baity kind of things of like
name an actor who's had a better four movie run
or whatever. Yeah, well, if you, if you, if you

(15:54):
do Stargate, or if you start from Stargate, you go Stargate.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
Crash two Days in the Valley in Driftwood.

Speaker 4 (15:59):
Yeah, but if you go, if you, if you go
from Crash instead of Target, so you go one movie later,
it's Crash two Days in the Valley Driftwood and Keys
to Tulsa.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
I mean, talk about a full from fucking grace. He
hits every run down on the ugly stack you get,
you know, Crash. Apart from obviously being a huge controversy,
which it was, it was also like the cast of Crash,
although Spader is really only Spader and Holly Hunter rather

(16:33):
are really the only two like super A list names.

Speaker 5 (16:37):
In the cast.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
But if you go back, if you when we were
doing the Crash episode, I was googling Crash a lot
to kind of get imagery and stuff like that. The
number of like film festival photos there are of the
four of them, Lias Cots, Spader and Holly Hunter looking
like just the fucking it it people like the the

(16:58):
just the like. This was the nineties people, this is
what you were dealing with.

Speaker 5 (17:03):
It was sexy, it was young, it was gritty.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
They were a hot fight like for that minute. And
to follow that up with what he followed it up
with and you talk about just a complete collide into
the ocean of shit.

Speaker 4 (17:18):
Well, well you can see now why he did critical
care because that's the one after Keisa Tulsa. He must
have just been like, yeah, Siddy the May what movie
is I'm just I'm there, I'm going to do a
movie with you.

Speaker 5 (17:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Spainer was probably looking at that and being like, wait,
lu Metz wants to hire me after the run of
films I've just but it's true, like he sort of
manages every few years in his career to work with
like a big name director. And it's weird where Tonight's

(17:54):
film sits as well, because it's around about the time
that he would doing he does Alien Hunter and then
gets the Practice basically right, And do you think he
already had the contract for Shadow of Fear Inked and
was just like, fuck, I've got to go do that
film in Washington State while I'm working on the practice.

(18:16):
Do you think that's what happened.

Speaker 3 (18:17):
I have a hunch.

Speaker 4 (18:18):
I have a hunch that he was like yeah and
I and I wonder if if the practice was like
so happy to have him because he saves the Practice, right,
I didn't realize this that the Emmy he won for
The Practice was as Best Lead Actor. He had taken
over that show so fully that he was considered the lead.
And then of course he wins it again for Boston

(18:39):
Legal as the lead. He's the only person who's ever
won for the same character in two different because Lou Grant.
You know, at Asner, he he won a supporter supporting
actor in Mary Tyler Moore and then lead actor for
show Lou Grant. But you know, so I didn't realize
how badly the Practice also like needed him, like they
you know, so I wanted to see Tara.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
Starts, Tara Wilson, Ronometrius character, Denny Crane, and James Spader
all were in the last season of The Practice and
see it's sort of the pilot for Boston Legal, is
what it is. And I forget how, where or when?

(19:22):
And I don't know whether I bought the DVD or
it was on streaming for a half minute before disappearing again.
But I was able to, Oh, I forget how many
years ago, Matt, probably ten years ago. Now I was
able to watch the last season of the Practice.

Speaker 5 (19:38):
So I have seen those episodes.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
That lead into Boston Legal, and then I've seen the
five seasons of Boston Legal. You get Yeah, although technically
it's really only four full seasons because season one and
season five of Boston Legal are essentially only half seasons.
So it's they say five because you know they did

(20:00):
it five times, but it was it was full see
full full seasons.

Speaker 4 (20:05):
Yeah, with the two halves. Yeah, I wonder maybe this
is how the story works, is that he gets Boston
Legal after already signing Shadow of Fear, and he's like
telling them and they're like so happy to have him that,
They're like, fine, go ahead and do it, and he's
like hoping that they're gonna be like, no, you got
to get out of that Shadow you know, like he
would have an excuse or something to get out of it, right,

(20:26):
he can maybe sue or something like that.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
And he's like, so I really have to go do
this Shadow of Fear.

Speaker 4 (20:31):
What do you mean you have? No, No, you're fine,
Come when you're ready, come back and we'll take you here.
Are you sure you don't need me sooner? No, hod,
I'll do it. You're good. You know that and eventually
he's like, all right, all right, I gotta go do
this this Shadow of Fear movie.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah, it's it's it's weird, but it is. It does
come off the back of a long run of whether
you want to call them direct the video, whether you
want to call them be to you, basically after Secretary
instead of again like here's another time where he as
in he cred. He gets a big you know, a
big festival favorite movie, a big art house favorite movie,

(21:05):
at launches Maggie Joe Hall's career, et cetera, et cetera,
and you would think, you know, yet again, Spader is
in the zeitgeist. The zeitgeist is of Spader. And it's
almost like Spader throughout the brat Pack years when he
really got to kind of let his tasseled hair fly.

(21:27):
I think it's almost like by the time he has
sort of success in later career, he's sort of he
sort of listen, guys, I was there in the eighties.

Speaker 5 (21:37):
I don't need it anymore, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
He does Dream Lover, which was that had a budget,
even though it's a piece of shit that did have
a budget, but it's still it's only another small step
up from Music of Chance, which is very low budget,
but then he does Wolf, Stargate, and Crash, which are
that's like a one two three. These all big studio

(21:59):
movie I'm Spader playing in the big studio pool kind
of thing. And you know, like we said, he headlines
along with Kurt Russell, Stargate and that's a huge that's
a huge thing. Stargate was such a big movie. It
spawned TV shows and comic books and you know, whole

(22:20):
novels and things like the Stargate universe. It's not Trek
or Wars, but it's you know, it's the third Star.
So if you've got Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate is
next in terms of and maybe there's a big gap
between Star Trek and Stargate, but still, you know, it
became a legitimate franchise, not without Spader being there to

(22:45):
molest the first alien woman. You know what I.

Speaker 4 (22:49):
Remember about being in the theater for other things, in
seeing trailers for Stargate, or even see the commercials for
Stargate when when they were running those was and it's
funny because now I'm here doing you know, easy Spader,
But like I remember seeing him in the commercials and
just being like man like he's like a real sleazy scientist.
Like is this like Spader doing this?

Speaker 3 (23:08):
You know, like what does he do?

Speaker 4 (23:09):
Well?

Speaker 2 (23:09):
Does it? Because doesn't doesn't Independence Day come out after
after Stargate? Right?

Speaker 5 (23:16):
Was it Stargate before?

Speaker 4 (23:19):
Yeah? Right?

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Because essentially Spader invents the floppy head sexual scientist that
Jeff Goldblum would then run with, you know, add in fornight.
Well no, because then Jeff Gobluin did the Fly, which
is the original floppy head sexy scientist. All right, okay,

(23:40):
gold it's the Goldblums Spader conundrum though, right? Also, do
you want to know something weird about stargating?

Speaker 4 (23:48):
Now?

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Everything about it isn't there a been in Stargate? And
I haven't seen it for a while, where like Spader
has to have sex with an alien woman, Like, isn't
that part of Stargate?

Speaker 4 (23:56):
It's been forever since I've seen it too.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
Whether like we need someone to usher forth the sire
you know, the child of bethle Bing or whatever, like
it's you know, because everything's a fucking Christ metaphor Matt
Christ with the metaphors.

Speaker 5 (24:12):
But you know what I'm saying, he has to.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
I think it's well that he does another movie called
Star Crust much earlier on in his life, where the
whole plot hinges on him fucking an alien. I'm not
even making that up. The two times I feel like
Spader in his later career could have really, you know,
folded in some goodwill and sex appeal and become a

(24:36):
big Hollywood star. He chooses not to, and the run
of movies he does after this after Secretary are just.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
It's another great four four movie run.

Speaker 4 (24:48):
Better stick up Pentagon Papers, Eyewitness in Hollywood, an Alien Hunter.
I guess you get like the four box on Twitter,
like anybody had a better run.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
That would be an amazing meme if you just found
different movie groups around the Internet and just posted the
worst four films a big name person has ever done
in a row. Has anyone ever had a better run?
I'll wait, you know, I'll wait, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (25:19):
Mitch from the video Vacuum did a really fantastic one
of like the four movies that Wayne Newton.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
Did, so it was like, just like The Running Man,
and I can't remember.

Speaker 4 (25:31):
Exact anybody had a four better four movie run and
it was the four like the four Weight.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
I was like this is like he just kind of
won the Internet today.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
That's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. Way has anyone ever had
a better.

Speaker 3 (25:44):
I think he may have buttoned it with the ol
wait as well. I think you did button it with the.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
You have to Matt, so you just have to say,
I'll wait. But yeah, anyway, but then you know it's
it's twenty fifteen and he does Age of Ultra. Now
you know, obviously downy you has probably got work in
his magic behind closed doors. But Beda Spader is an
interesting cap man. We never quite know what he's going

(26:09):
to do next, and what a what a riveting thing
it is because one of the things he chose to do,
and this is really kind of where we've been headed,
is a movie called Shadow of Fear in two thousand
and four. Now, what is utterly utterly mad about this film?

Speaker 5 (26:28):
What the first thing?

Speaker 2 (26:29):
That's something that myriad myriad things, but the bookend, the
madness bookends, the the what the fuckery supports at either
side of this movie of this, Matt Hey, how did
the three people behind this movie, Rich Karen, Matt Holloway

(26:50):
and art Markham get the cast that they got for
this movie, which is James Spader, Aiden Quinn, Pete Coyote,
Robin Tunney, Robert Miano, who is a very well known
character actor. Obviously Shane the Dog, which was played by
William Shakespeare. How did they get? No?

Speaker 5 (27:11):
No, no, how did.

Speaker 2 (27:12):
They get the cast that they got considering they were
all I think they're all more or less newbies, which
Cohen may have produced other stuff, but I'm just I
think this is his first directorial. No. He had done
a movie called The Basket previously, which The Basket, Shadow

(27:33):
of Fear and The River Murders. Has anyone had a
better three film run than Rich Cowen The Basket, which
starred Peter Coyote. So that's how Peter Coyote got into this.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
Movie, right, You really like working on a basket with me?

Speaker 5 (27:54):
The Basket, Matt, Oh, this is great.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
It features Joey Travolta and Ellen Travolta.

Speaker 5 (28:02):
It's got two Travaulters in the Basket.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
Maybe, oh my god, maybe Rich Karen is like some
sort of insane scientologist director and the Travolters were just like, here,
we'll give you a movie to make. We've got the
Basket and put our friend Peter coyote in it. Maybe
that's what happened.

Speaker 4 (28:25):
It's got Karen Allen from Indiana Jones and I get
so is that? Oh? Actually, because we were talking about
Donald Sutherland passing away right, because it was Karen Allen
who didn't want to show her buttocks in the film.
She was afraid and he said, well I'll show I'll
show mine too. How does that sound? And she was
like okay, now I'm in and uh so, very yeah,

(28:45):
very chivalrous.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
As I said that the book Ends of Madness, first
of all is how do you get this cast? But
the second of all is sort of how the film
gets made at all? When the script is what the
script is?

Speaker 4 (28:59):
Who who read this? So because one of the things
I remember seeing this thing on Instagram that was it
was Ethan Hawk, they'll do like these vignettes of Ethan
Hawk talking about the craft, and it always kind of
fascinates me listening to whatever reason you see.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
So whatever about the craft of acting?

Speaker 4 (29:16):
What the algorithm on Instagram is, like, Matt, you want
to see these? I guess because I watched one and
they do you.

Speaker 3 (29:24):
Get the okay?

Speaker 4 (29:25):
So you know, okay, So it's just if you like.

Speaker 5 (29:28):
I want to watch talk about the method.

Speaker 4 (29:32):
But he was talking about how actors make the best
directors because actors are always thinking about what a character's
motivation is. When directors are just like, let's get the
scene in. And he's talking about like, you know, like
like horror movies when when characters go down to the
basement when there's some instead of just running out of
the house, and he's like, why wouldn't I just run
out of the house. But you're talking about that, like
they want to know their motivation. And I just see

(29:52):
like a whole bunch of actors, right, you know, Spader, Tunny, Coyote,
whoever else that the kind of low poor man's uh,
Tom Brady that we have as the lead in this film.
They're flipping through the script and the like, where's my motivation?

Speaker 2 (30:09):
And I think, I'm I am betting Matt, I'm betting
you that I think that this movie wasn't sold on
the script. I think this movie was sold on the treatment.
I think there was probably a one or two page
treatment for this movie that got everyone very excited because

(30:31):
it's a bit like that. You know how pulp fiction
is basically a linear narrative, but the beginning and end
of the movie is in the middle, and the middle
of the movie is at the beginning and end. Everyone
always goes on pulp fiction. It's so twisty turning. It's
not he took a narrative movie. But the beginning and
the end of the middle, and the middle of the
beginning and end, that's it.

Speaker 5 (30:51):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
The diner scene, if you played the movie chronologically, would
be the middle of the movie.

Speaker 5 (30:57):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
It's not complicated or weird, but every one wants to
give Tarantino props anyway, any opportunity to ship on that
giant fullheaded over.

Speaker 5 (31:09):
Anyway.

Speaker 4 (31:09):
So the only thing, the one thing I'll quickly say
about Tarantino is he he gave us, you know, Pam
Grier and Rockey Forster, Jackie Brown.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
I love, I love Tarantino movies up until Kill Bill one,
and then I did like the Hollywood one.

Speaker 4 (31:26):
Yes, I like that one, like like I like you know,
like I like his stuff, you know, I like things.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
But he's horribly, horribly over praised and over Yeah.

Speaker 4 (31:36):
Anyway, there's like an age group of fans of people
our age have this idea that Tarantino, Kevin Smith and
Robert Rodriguez are like, go to our like bigmar Bergman,
you know, Kursawa, and it's like, no, they they have
good movies. You know, they have some some good stuff.
But there's so many other directors out there that, you know,

(31:59):
I mean, I could find a few Albert pun films
that you know inspire me as much as you know
some of the you know. But but there's this mindset
of like, well, this is what's great, these are the
great directors, and it's like, no, you forget that, like
you could, you know, it's yes, I you know, I
think for me, like the only thing that Tarantino has done,
I mean, I love pulp fiction, but that goes into
that kind of Bergman category for me, is that the

(32:22):
stuff with Forrester and and Pam Greer in Jackie Brown.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
And again even in Jackie Brown, he can't help himself
but sort of fucking ruin it because the scene that
would become the trailer, Yeah, the bit where when you're
absolutely positive we gotta kill every motherfucker in the room
except no substitute. That bent right, which is in any

(32:47):
of the movie, is a great scene. It's a funny scene.
It's a silly scene, it's whatever. It completely spoils the atmosphere, mood, tempo, maturity,
It spoils a lot of the He just can't help
himself but be like, oh, let me put a showy

(33:11):
verbose piece in this thing. And you know, I think
of in Jackie Brown when he does the assassination of
Chris Tucker at the beginning by Samuel L. Jackson, where
it's all plays in a one shot and you see
the car, you hear the music, you see the car
pull away, the music fades as if the music is
coming from the car. He takes him off into a

(33:33):
parking lot, shoots him, puts him in the trunk, and
then drives off. That's the pace that I think of
in Jackie Brown, that slower pace, those scenes like you
say over breakfast, at the dinner table with Pam Grier
and Robert Forster, the scenes in the bail bond's office
where Forster slows everything down and doesn't let Jackson like

(33:56):
dominate the scene like it's played at four pace. That's
the pace I want that movie to be at. And
that scene in the middle, or any scene really where
Forster and Jackie are not on screen, you know, for
too long. Those are the scenes that, yeah, they're funny

(34:17):
as a comedy sketch, but it doesn't fit that there's
a better movie in Jackie Brown is as good as
Jackie Brown is. There is a much better, more considered,
more mature movie in Jackie Brown than the Jackie Brown
we have. I would love to do a you know,
a fan editor, what I would call a seventies edit

(34:40):
on it.

Speaker 5 (34:40):
That's what I would like to do.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
It was at this point that Matt Peier and John
Cross went on a massive tangent about TV shows, writing
all sorts of stuff that I just felt didn't fit
this particular podcast. And also I needed to cut something
out otherwise this would have run over four hours and
I just can't take that anymore. So I edited out

(35:04):
this long section. But we're about to jump back in
to the conversation again. Here we go. Thanks. I think,
to me, it's why I stick with movies over TV
ninety percent of the time. It's because, and I know
a lot of people are like, well, it's an attention thing.
Maybe it's an attention thing. Fine, look down on me

(35:24):
because maybe I don't have a great attention span. But
I don't think it's that I like being told a story,
but I also like being told a story by someone
who knows how to end a story. And sometimes you
just have to end a story. I know everyone is like,
you do two hour podcasts about nothing. How dare you
criticize people for not knowing how to end a story?

(35:45):
But I'm just saying in general, I like people to
end the story. And so often these inflated TV series
that are based on a treatment that would have been
a great ninety minute movie but sucks as a ten
hour episode or twenty four episode TV series just bang
on and on and on and on and on and

(36:06):
have to throw endless fucking obstacles in the way. And
I'm listen, as bad as life is, it's not like
every morning I wake up and there's yet another obstacle,
Like you know what I mean, There's only so many
obstacles as long as you pay your bills, right, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:23):
So my wife and I were binging Scrubs because she
watched Scrubs and she got me to watch Scrubs, which is,
you know, not not horrible, but binging Scrubs.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
Was a great blues trumpet player in the nineteen thirties.
Binging scrubs, Binging scrubs in the Uptown six.

Speaker 4 (36:37):
That's right from Philadelphia. He's got his own like heritage
flack thing here in Philadelphia. Binging scrubs lived on this
corner here from eighteen ninety to nineteen thirty seven.

Speaker 5 (36:47):
And now hepcats.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
We're very happy here in the blue note sub to
introduce tonight binging scrubs in the Uptown six.

Speaker 5 (37:00):
It's that scrubs noise.

Speaker 4 (37:01):
Sorry, like like millennial hipsters just being like, so, I
just told I got the new binging scrubs a little bit.
Give you listen to binging so fantastic.

Speaker 5 (37:12):
I've really loved Davis is so pass a. I love binging.
Have you heard binging scrubs?

Speaker 4 (37:20):
No?

Speaker 2 (37:20):
I have. I've heard of binging scrub No, no, no,
But you haven't heard the Delta seventy eight sessions from
nineteen forty two that he recorded in a cafe in Lisbon.

Speaker 5 (37:33):
What are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Wait?

Speaker 5 (37:35):
Was a guy I used to work There was a guy.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Who I used to work with who was like that
about Like you would name a band like mmfl and
Sons or whatever, and he'd be like, yeah, I know,
MUMFLD and Sons. But you've never heard the bootleg of
the show they did before they were famous outside a
Clark's shoe store in Kent, and you're like, no, I haven't.

(37:57):
Does that mean that I'm not a fan? Does that
mean that I don't haven't understood the real true beauty
of Mumpin and Sons. That everything that they've put out
that's made them a multi platinum selling back, none of
that is any good. I need to hear a grainy
bootleg recorded on some audio tape I've been playing outside
a fucking shoe store and stunt on Trent High Street. Yeah,
that's what I need. Thank you, mister Hipster's comeback for

(38:19):
spoiling music for me. I've heard the binging? Have you
heard the binging scrubs Lisbon sessions? Get out of my face?

Speaker 4 (38:30):
Sorry, we're like doing forbatim. I think, what's the next
Jim Jarmush movie with like whatever like its young actors
he's cast in the movie. They're gonna be like going
to like some convenience store that's like won by like
like Bill Murray and he's gonna be sitting there with
his old daughter and Bill Murray face, what are your kids?
And he's gonna be like you know whoever, like, like

(38:51):
you know from Dead Don't Die, What was it Selena
Gomez and Austin Butler. It's gonna have Boston Butler, right,
you know, fucking Boston Butler wanders in here.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
We're talking love gil this and you're likes him. Please
just stop, stop, just stop. Everyone knows it wasn't your voice.
Just just take it der breath and talk normally. Now,
let's get on with it.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
Yeah, you got Binging Scrubs.

Speaker 4 (39:16):
I totally you know.

Speaker 3 (39:17):
It's like it's gonna be like all Jarbushian.

Speaker 5 (39:21):
Is basically going to.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
Remake Empire Records and it's but it's gonna be Binging
Scrubs day.

Speaker 4 (39:31):
That's gonna be the next Jim jar Bush movie.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
And Binging Scrubs is gonna be played by Don.

Speaker 4 (39:35):
Cheatle cheetle right with with like like a pasted on
gray Beard.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, and like a Miles Davis slick back curly wig.

Speaker 4 (39:45):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yeah, he's gonna play Binging Scrubs. And he only shows
up for like thirty seconds in the final frame. The
whole thing's in black and white, and the waiter is
played by Steve.

Speaker 4 (39:55):
Scrub everybody comes here for Binging Scrubs until the switness
is going to walk and his be creepy.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
It's sort of the it's it's the artist that Thora
birchand Scarlett Johanson would be listening to in Ghost World
exactly his.

Speaker 5 (40:15):
Binging Scrubs, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Oh. While being interviewed, Harmony Krinne would state that he
was the number one fan of Binging Scrubs, but only
liked the album that was recorded amongst some dumpsters in
a fucking bathtub warehouse in Iowa where someone took a

(40:39):
shit on a corpse. And then everyone be like, oh, Harmony,
you're so edgy.

Speaker 4 (40:45):
Well, we're watching, like like Jimmy Fallon doing this interview
on the Tonight Show with Harmony Krink who was just
like melting into his seat, like trying to get anything
of value out of him, and just like.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, so when we when we were last talking about
the movie about a week ago before, the myriad of
sidebars that was just that was an inception level of sidebars,
that was sidebars within sidebars. Weirdly, though, Matt, considering my memory,

(41:18):
as you know, COVID fogged and generally as I've got older,
not great. I remember exactly where we were when we
were last talking about this movie. I was saying that
I think that there was a really good treatment. Now
there is a podcast that everyone knows about called how
Did This Get Made? Or Why Did This Get Made?

(41:38):
How Did This Get made?

Speaker 4 (41:39):
Right?

Speaker 2 (41:40):
And the thing that annoys me about that podcast, apart
from the fact that none of them seemed to have
very much film knowledge at all and therefore it's sort
of a frustrating listen, except their series on the Fast
and Furious franchise is great because obviously they're not going
back and watching a movie that you and I know
tons about, but they are just like they're going like,

(42:04):
why did this happen in the film? And you're like, well,
I could tell you why if you would bother to
like read up on the film or why, you know.

Speaker 5 (42:13):
Whatever it is.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
But what they don't do very often on that show
is actually talk about how the film got made. They
don't even hypothesize about the show's called how Did This
Get Made? I understand what they mean is, you know,
this is the kind of film that you look at
and you go, my god, you know who made this?
But you know they never really go into how did
this get made? One of the things you and I

(42:36):
and previously Jim and I used to love doing was hypothesizing,
to the best of our ability with the knowledge that
we have, how something like this like Shadow of Fear
gets made. And I think right because between Matt Holloway

(42:58):
and Art Markham who wrote this, right, when you step
away from this movie and stop thinking about that's what
I was talking about, like pulp fiction.

Speaker 5 (43:08):
Right, So.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
This movie plays a bit like pulp fiction in the
sense that by the time you're halfway through, you're like, wait,
what's going on?

Speaker 5 (43:19):
The first time you watch it?

Speaker 2 (43:20):
I mean right, yeah, and you're like, am I just
being shown fever dream scenes of a man's life with
no connective tissue and no explanations. There is no at
no point, by the way, in this movie, at no
point is their exposition.

Speaker 5 (43:37):
No, you're right.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
There was a scene or two where characters sat down
with each other and said, you know, this is how
this began, or this is where Joe's from, or that's
his daughter, like you've got little bits of information, but
at no point did anything was anything fully explained. It's
not until you finish the movie which, by the way,
you don't finish the movie and go, oh, I understand

(43:59):
it now.

Speaker 5 (44:00):
It's not like The Big Sleep.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Where you know it goes on and on and on
and finally it's all revealed at the end. There's no
deaf storytelling hand here. This is one of those movies
that you watch, you then have to sit with for
a bit and then you go, Okay, what actually was
the plot? And this is where I think the treatment

(44:25):
probably would have sold this movie much better than the script,
because the treatment would have said something along the lines
of wealthy, multi generational town family, well known town family,
and local politician, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Comes
under the thrall of weirdo local mastermind who has a

(44:50):
group of a sort of Illuminati or Masonic style group
of businessmen, dictitories, mobsters, whatever, all of whom but at
some point in their life, needed to get out of
a crime, get away with a crime, get out from
under a crime, and in order to pay for having

(45:10):
that crime expunged, Spader has them continually perform that crime
but for his benefit, and they think for their benefit,
but ultimately for their detriment.

Speaker 5 (45:23):
And he talks about at a certain.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
Point in the movie about you know, I have a
financial guy, and I have a you know, a car guy,
I have whatever, But I don't have a murderer.

Speaker 5 (45:33):
And you're my murderer.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
Whatever it is, right, that's the kernel of the idea,
this idea that your sin will become your master essentially,
but by continually sinning your original sin, well, by continually sinning,
none of your crimes will ever come back to haunt you.
But if you refuse to criminally behave, everything will come

(45:57):
back to haunt you.

Speaker 5 (45:59):
That's an idea.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
You kind of go, oh okay, like that's kind of
cool and neat. I mean, I don't when you start
logically trying to unpick it too much, You're like, right,
but wouldn't spader with every crime that people were doing,
wouldn't spade for the benefit of someone else in the group,
because everyone has to do a crime that benefits someone

(46:20):
else in the group, right, So constantly the group is
trying to like look after itself, and if you pulled
apart any one peg, it would all just fall apart,
and he would have to spend twenty four to seven
monitoring all the movements of all these people and then
there's and then there's some like tagged on ending where

(46:41):
they're like, we're Weirdly, they're like, and if you keep
working for James Spader, he will fuck your daughter like that's.

Speaker 5 (46:49):
That's and you're like, wait what.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
At no point, at any other point in the in
the film was there any hint that Spader is going
to be having sex with anyone. At the end of
the movie, Spade has been like, look, I'm James Spader,
right amas unnerving as fuck. When you see me holding
a teacup in this movie, your your skin is gonna

(47:13):
crawl out of your toenails. You're any any remotely erotic
feelings you have will leak from your ears down onto
your elbows. But so you know, but at some point
all of this has got to be about Spader getting laid.

(47:36):
What's funny, there's a there's a there's a list on
letterboxed called movies that hinge on David Sorry, movies that
hinge on James Spader's dick or something like that, And
it's all movies this person has watched where James Spader's
dick is a core of the storyline, not that it

(47:56):
not that he shows his Dick, but Dick is like him.
His being touched by a woman is the main through
line of the movie. You would be surprised, and the
letterbox list is not very long. Having watched his entire career,
you would be surprised how many movies that ultimately, when

(48:17):
you finish the movie, you go, wait, was that entire
movie just about him getting a man's daughter into bed? Yes? So,
but nope. But basically what I mean by that is
that is you can imagine that there was a treatment
about this interesting concept that was that sort of a

(48:38):
kind of if this came out in like nineteen ninety five,
ninety six, and it sort of had indie sensibility, but
it was also lovable Schmoe goes for a Walk on
the Dark Side with James Spader or whatever, you would go, Okay,
I get how this film was made. There was a
lot of stuff, like I'm thinking back when you go

(48:59):
back through Spader's career and you see films, whether it's
Dream Lover, whether it's White Past, whether it's Bad Influence,
whether it's Storyville, where they are sort of these thrillers
that are sort of you know, yeah, there's some sex
in them. Yeah, there's some politics in them. Yeah, there's
sort of the dark anderbody. Yeah, there's a manipulation. They

(49:21):
kind of have a lot of the same themes, right,
and Keys to Tulsa even has a sort of you know,
Spader is the nerdo well and Eric Staltz is the
guy who's trying to kind of get out from.

Speaker 5 (49:30):
Under him or whatever.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
And so you can understand that, like when the shadow
of Fear that concept comes across everyone's desk, they kind
of go, Okay, that seems part of the course for
where I am in my career, right, you know what
I mean, I'm a master manipulator. I get to hang
out with a bunch of character actors. I get to
fox some daughters. This sounds great, you know what I mean?

(49:55):
Like on paper when you stand back from the movie. However,
having said all that, nothing that I just said is
readily apparent in the movie at all until you've watched
the movie, stepped back from the jigsure and gone, was
this what was happening? Like? I don't know, Like maybe

(50:20):
so everything I just said with assured confidence is really
coming from a place of matt is that the film
we watched? Did I understand it? Because I don't know, Matt,
what was your take on it?

Speaker 4 (50:32):
So, yeah, it's it. I think the treatment idea makes
the most sense because it also.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
Felt like it was a script that wasn't proof read.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
Oh, no one read the script, Like I don't believe
for a second that space. That's that's sorry, yes, sorry,
I meant to put a cap on it. That's why
I said about the treatment. If someone before you, if
someone just handed you the script as the movie we watched,
there's no way you would get what I got from
it from the script because the script is gobbledygook. I mean,

(51:06):
the script is gobbledy. I mean unless the script was
much longer and the director just hacked into it and
made it nonsensical gibberish.

Speaker 5 (51:15):
But the script is baffling in the extreme.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
So you're right. No one read the script, no one
proof read the script, no one read the script, no
one anything. Everyone got on board because of the idea.
That's what I'm saying. But do you think from my
interpretation of what we watch, because I don't think it's
on noncent? No am I right?

Speaker 5 (51:33):
Do you think is that what was happening in this movie?

Speaker 4 (51:36):
I think so? The thing I didn't understand at the end,
I guess they were trying to say that. So we
have this main character who's played by Matthew Davis, who
I guess he did like Vampire Chronicles or like he
does TV shows.

Speaker 3 (51:47):
Now I'd never heard of him before.

Speaker 4 (51:49):
He looks like a poor man's Tom Brady, and I
don't want to make fun of anybody's looks, but he
does have a bit of a protruding brow race, like possibly,
you know, signaling that he may have had some Neanderthal
gene in his background.

Speaker 3 (52:01):
And the way he.

Speaker 4 (52:01):
Shot, the way the cinematographer shoots him, he doesn't take
into account that brow ridge. So he's just always got
this shadow over his eyes the whole time. It just
makes him look even angrier and creepier. But he's not
a very likable character. And when he gets into bed
with Spader, you almost wonder like why, like who would
be dumb enough to get into bed with Spader for
anything like well this?

Speaker 5 (52:23):
So yeah, but so this was the thing.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
So a little on Matthew Davis quickly, so it looks
like he's discovered by Joel Schumacher when he's making Tigerland
and he wants a bunch of like it guys to
play the soldiers, right, Yeah, so he gets discovered with him.
He does Pearl Harbor, similar kind of thing. He does
Legally Blonde. That makes sense. He's kind of a Kendall

(52:45):
Bland kind of thing. Fine, put him in, put him
in Legally Blonde. He does Shadow of Fear. He does
a bunch of other straight to video stuff like Saving
Sigles into the Sun Blood Rain. But yeah, so he
does a New Way for Palm. But then I think,
hasn't he sort of moved over now to basically doing yeah,
Vampire Diaries and CSI, and he's now on a TV

(53:10):
show called Legacies or what Sorry, No, he was on
a TV show called Legacies to TV movies in production.

Speaker 4 (53:16):
Yeah, he's playing a character named Alaric, which I don't
see him as an Alaric to be honest.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
But considering the high you know, considering the fairly large
movies that he was in at the beginning of his career, Tigerlan,
Pearl Harbor, Legally Blonde, Blue Crush, that's a big film,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 5 (53:32):
He's acting.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
If we say that he went quickly from the likes
of those movies to the likes of Steven Seagull film
and an ove Ball movie. That says, in fact, that
that's a good trajectory, because that says all you need
to know about his acting ability is that he goes
very quickly from you know, potential Hollywood A list to

(53:54):
fucking an ouve Bowl movie, you know, in a few clips.

Speaker 4 (53:59):
Because I think the people making the film they thought
he could be like a Peter Berg in the Last Seduction.
But he's not a Peter Burg. He's not that kind
of actor. He's not you know, he he doesn't have
that range that Peter Berg has to play, you know,
being Gladiated with Koba Gooding Junior Brynnity and then be
in Last Seduction with Linda Fiorentino, right, and and so

(54:20):
because he doesn't have that range, the whole thing, like
you said, it's like kind of the way, you know,
this whole web that that that Spader is is weaving
could fall apart with like one piece moving apart. He's
also this very flimsy foundation that the film is based on.

Speaker 5 (54:35):
You have no idea what he does for, right.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
But we don't know his job.

Speaker 4 (54:39):
Yeah, he just they talk about his states like you know,
can you win this estate you lose to state? I
mean the one thing I completely forgot because they don't
make it that clear that he's hammered. But like so,
when he gets into that car accident at the very beginning,
he kills the care like the guy in the road,
which I guess if you're drunk, it's an issue. But
on a pouring rainy night in the middle, was he drunk?

Speaker 5 (55:00):
Was he meant to be drunk?

Speaker 4 (55:02):
I think I forgot about this, but I guess he
in Tuesdays.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
The weird thing is that the movie starts. There's this
whole thing about right. So this is this is the
problem about talking about this movie. It's because first it
doesn't the movie doesn't start right. You're meant to know
at the beginning of the movie that it's a Tuesday night,
regular gathering of this cabal of guys that Spader has
that are doing this stuff. But that this particular character,

(55:30):
while he comes because his father in law goes to
these events. He goes to the events, he's not allowed
to sit at the table. Who knows why is even
at the event, or why is allowed to sit at
the table, or what the event is or what they
do or whatever it is.

Speaker 5 (55:43):
Nobody knows what's going on. Everyone's drinking at a table.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
He's not. He sat over on a chair by himself.
We don't know any of this. I still to this
day don't know like why any of that matters. But anyway,
Tuesday nights, all Tuesday nights, no matter what. They have
a constant refrain in the movie, Tuesday nights, Tuesday nights,
no matter what, like y not shine bah blah blah
blah blah kind of thing. Right, So he's the movie starts,
the credits are still rolling, we see this thing. Spader

(56:07):
says a few innocuous things. He then gets in a car,
dark rainy night, like rain rain, rain, rain, rain, rain, rain, rain, rain,
over which as he's driving along, we hear Spader repeat
the thing that he just like Spader just said. I'm like, wait,
is that meant to be important? Because it doesn't. That
sentence that Spader said, which is something like always on

(56:28):
a Tuesday night, we must obey the table or something
like that doesn't mean anything to me, Like I don't
know what table or who James Spader is or even
who this guy is. Right within thirty seconds, the of
the movie starting, this guy, this big brown, big chinned
you know, non deescript blanders fuck hairstyle with all the

(56:50):
acting ability of a napkin, has plowed plowed into a
guy like the guy gets fluck. I mean it's comical,
but the guy goes flat, like he gets pinned by
his BMW and the guy flies off the screen. Right,
we see the guy get out of the car, look

(57:12):
at this dead buddy, hem and horror a little bit,
drag it down into the mud and debris by the
side of the road, cover it up in some branches,
get back in his car and drive away. Right, that's
the first thing we see. We don't know who this
guy is. We don't know who Spader is, we don't
know where they're coming from. We don't know why Tuesday
nights are important. We don't know what the table's going on,

(57:34):
none of it. And by the way, we don't know
still forty five minutes into the movie what any of
those things are.

Speaker 5 (57:43):
So that's how the movie starts.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
And the whole point is, you know, because later in
the movie, and I'm just putting this together now, there's
the scene where Peter Coyote and this Bland guy are
driving alarm after the funeral, and Peter Cody's like I
never wanted you to come him by and like screaming
about never wanted to out here.

Speaker 4 (58:01):
What he means is ne word you get black now
if you.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
Come here like you, if you come to this town
and live in this nonscript town that's never named, never mentioned,
never talked about, there's hardly anybody there whatever this town.
We only know this Washington because you said it was
filmed there, right, Washington.

Speaker 4 (58:20):
Right, Yes, it's Spokane area, yeah're rrect.

Speaker 2 (58:22):
We only know that the father in law is part
of this nonsense much later on, after the father in
law has already said, you know, you shouldn't have been here,
should have been his, should have been here whatever. But
we don't know that at any point that he hasn't
always been there. But we find that out, like we
don't find out anything in order of the thing that

(58:44):
we need to find out in order to understand this movie.
At no point in the script it's it's utterly, utterly
infuriating and weird. But like Matt, before we go further
on through the plot, was this your experience of watching
it or were you understanding it more as you watched.

Speaker 4 (59:00):
It, it was well, so I was starting to understand
it as as it was unfolding that like, Okay, there's
this you know, this blackmail ring that that's run by Spader,
and you know you.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
Need the IMDb description before you watched it. Okay, No,
like you got that from the first thirty minutes of
the movie.

Speaker 4 (59:17):
No, No, I guess I got it when James Spader says,
I can fix your problems for you, right, if you've
got a problem, I can fix it for you.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
I knew you weren't supposed to trust Spader.

Speaker 4 (59:30):
Now, I didn't know that it meant that, you know
that he was blackmailing everybody, every famous, you know, rich,
every rich person in the town. And that's how he
controlled the towns, that he just blackmailed everybody by having
dirt on them, by fixing problems. But I knew that
he was not someone that you would want fixing your
problems for you, right.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
That you know, and he's Look, I understand that there
were elites everywhere. Yeah, but is Spokane, Washington particularly like
white balls.

Speaker 4 (59:56):
Yeah, with you know, debutop balls and and and I
mean like if that's.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
What set in New England around sort of an Ivy
League city or something you would kind of go, Okay,
there are.

Speaker 4 (01:00:07):
Stakes like Gritich, Connecticut, right.

Speaker 5 (01:00:11):
Well, I mean even Greenwich, Connecticut would make more sense.

Speaker 4 (01:00:14):
It's far from Seattle, right, but like so so Spokane
itself two hundred thousand. I mean, then what would that
be like Like in Pennsylvania, that would be maybe the
third biggest city after Pittsburgh. But for Connecticut, I mean
it might make a big city Connects. I think a
hundred thousand might be that some of the Hartford you know,
it's actual, you know air, but it's like it's this

(01:00:35):
isolated enclave on the eastern part of Washington.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
But it's Spokane, Washington particularly like whitebread elite though, I
mean Rhode Island or Rhode Island or Massachusetts or something.
I feel like this movie should have taken place like
if I don't know, if he was the governor of
Rhode Island. Sure it would be small fried because it's
Rhode Island, the smallest state or whatever, but it's at
least a wealthy, posh state with mansions everywhere. You know.

(01:01:01):
You know that there's probably like tennis clubs in Rhode
Island that have like you know, dastardly deals and sexual
intrigue happening behind the lace curtains of the little cabanas, right,
like exactly that you imagine to be a tennis club
in Rhode Island. I don't imagine a tennis club in Spokane, Washington.
Nothing against Spokane Washington. I'm sure soupocaine. Washington has uh,

(01:01:25):
you know, its own dark city underbelly. But Twin Peaks
this is not you know what I mean, it's not
even blue velvet. It's it's you know, I mean, Lynch
loves to do ooh the dark cedy underbelly. But like, yeah,
this this movie, this movie is like criminals in a

(01:01:47):
coulder sack, meaning like if you've got a culder sack, right,
and you might have let's say four houses off the
tip of the culder sack, and then maybe two more
houses further down the coldon and I'd say eight houses
in total. James Spader is like king of the cul
de Sac. I control these eight homes. Now. The eight
homes happened to be like multimillionaire dollar mansions, et cetera,

(01:02:11):
owned by well, one of the guys like Peter Cody
is a congressman.

Speaker 5 (01:02:15):
Right, here's the main problem with the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
The main problem with the movie is that it should
be about this cabal of businessmen who have been or
congressman or lawyers or whoever whatever they are, that have
been enslaved by Spader to do his bidding, that have
never been able to figure a way out of this situation.
Because of an accidental death during a car accident by

(01:02:41):
you know, this relative newcomer in town, he gets Ambrold
in this cabal, and through his involvement in this cabal,
he figures out a way to get Spader, and then
the cabal is free. Like that's that's the arc of
the that's the arc of the movie.

Speaker 5 (01:03:01):
But that's not how the movie tells it to you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
And in order for that to be the arc of
the movie, you would need scenes in which the people
in the cabal right now had got tired of all
the things they were having to do in order to
remain in the cabal and stay out of prison.

Speaker 5 (01:03:19):
You would need a sequence.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
Whereby you know, Peter Coyote and Robert Miano and some
of these other guys David Selby and whatever who are
in the cabal sitting around discussing it. That scene happens,
but it happens right at the very end of the movie,
like within the last ten minutes of the movie. But
that means that the entire arc that should be the

(01:03:43):
arc of the movie is essentially the last ten minutes
because you don't get the piece of information you need
about the dissatisfaction until that scene. And that scene even
comes after the scene where Peter Coyote in the car
is being like, you should never have come in, never
come here. Nothing leading up to that scene makes any
sense because you needed that scene at the beginning of

(01:04:05):
the thing, like you in Bad Influence, for example, which
is the closest Spader movie to this, Spader plays the
like mild mannered, weak yuppie guy who gets embroiled with
Rob Lowe's you know, charming con artist. We watch the
Nebbish go from you know, a mild mannered schmo to

(01:04:29):
having to find a way to get the better of
Rob low right and clean up all the mess, like
that's the so you just following the one person, you know,
the one thing with Rob low whereas with this one
you get the feeling that, well, there's a world trying
to be built here, but it's never sort of successfully built,

(01:04:51):
never sort of successfully explained.

Speaker 5 (01:04:53):
And it's not till like I say.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
Further on in the movie where you suddenly go, oh wait,
nobody wants to be in this situation. This isn't like
an ELK club site situation where everyone's dims in and
they're all like looking after the local township or whatever,
or even a Masonic thing where okay, they might not
be interfering with your life on a daily basis, but
should you fuck up, they'll be there ready to give you.

Speaker 5 (01:05:15):
A job and a much you know, better paid corporation
or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
It's it's not even that, it's like these it's like
he's king of the cul de sac. It's like these
little small fry things. And then they're all just sort
of set around me like, well, we don't know how
to get out from under James Spader's wall. I'm like, well,
I don't know. You're all like the leaders of industry
in this small town. Did you ever think you could
just get together club him to death, bury his body

(01:05:42):
and say nothing to the police, Like even the police
chief is under Spader's thumb. It's like, well, just have
the police chief shoot Spader in the face and get
on with it, like, so, I guess you know this.
This movie is probably more interesting after you've watched it
than it is while you because while you're watching it,
you just you have no idea. There's a whole scene
where fucking his wife Robin Tunney finds the clothes that

(01:06:06):
he did the murdering right, finds the dog chewing a
muddy boot and is all like, ooh, what is this
muddy boot and then puts it back in the gym
bag she's already found with muddy clothes. And then later
you see her drive out and she throws the bag
in the river, and you go to yourself, well, hang

(01:06:27):
on a second, Okay, does she know?

Speaker 4 (01:06:30):
I know?

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
He gets home that night and he goes, I killed
a man with a car, and she laughs and blah
blah blah blah blah, and then actually makes it look
like that he hit a pole. So we know that
she sends him off one evening to work or something.
She says, be careful you don't hit more than a
pole this time or whatever, right, So we know for
a fact she doesn't really think he's killed anyone. And
this is before her brother is discovered dead and possibly

(01:06:54):
is the guy in the embankment right down the back
of the dead.

Speaker 5 (01:06:59):
Body that he hit.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
Because there's that's another part of me where you're like, well,
did he kill her brother or not? I'm like, well,
all right, right, and did her brother rob a bank?

Speaker 4 (01:07:06):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
Did her brother rub a bank? And you know, anyway,
it just I mean, it gets very ridiculous this movie.
But she throws the clothes away, and what that made
me go was, oh, okay, that's to tell us that
they are the kind of couple that even if he
had killed a man, and that's what she kind of
maybe suspects he did, she will cover up for him

(01:07:29):
because they're that much in love. Like that's what I
thought that scene was saying. Yeah, But then the movie
doesn't play out like the movie doesn't play out like
she finds out and then she's like his support and
then they kind of go on the lamb and they
figure it out together and they're like, well, we could
double cross.

Speaker 3 (01:07:46):
Spader if we do this this, and then like yeah,
they don't do anything with it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
No, she just gets dressed up in addressed and almost
fucks Spader Like that's.

Speaker 4 (01:07:54):
What exactly I mean The thing with the movie is
it's like seventy minutes of build up and then, like
I was telling you when you were watching, you gotta
put on some goggles or something, because then the loose
ends start flying together for the last twenty minutes, right,
and it's like all over the place, and and there
is that sense when you get to that moment where
it's like an hour and ten minutes in of like, Okay,

(01:08:15):
I need to put my seatbelt on because they've got
to wrap this up somehow.

Speaker 3 (01:08:18):
And it also it removes any suspense from the ending, right, because.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
When it ends, you're just like, wait, that's the ending, right,
And then it's what's what's even weirder is it then
has attacked on ending that's done in voiceover only. That's
how you know it was tacked one right where it
seems to assume that the Matthew Davis character who's hilariously
called Harrison French, which is me. You can tell it's

(01:08:46):
these screenwriters first script because they're like, oh, yeah, Harrison French.
That's what people are called, right, Harrison French. You're like, no, nobody,
nobody's called Harrison French. Nobody, And if they, ah, fuck
that guy Harrison French if you're listening, fuck you.

Speaker 4 (01:09:07):
Uh well, they have names like that, like the guy
who's cheating on his wife is Sawgrass, right, they're Sawgrass
you know, yeah name he's just soas mister. Yeah. Yeah,
they get names like that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:09:24):
I was trying to think what aid in Quinn is
Detective Schofield. Yeah, it's like they just kind of pull.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
The other thing is James Spader's loosh you know, Mac Devellian,
uh uh whatever?

Speaker 4 (01:09:36):
He is?

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
Trust fund kid William Ashbury. I'm like, okay Ashbury that
you know, But again, that sounds like a New England
trust fund baby. It doesn't sound like a Spokane Washington manipulated,
you know what I mean? And Harris in French just
sounds like some haws. Some French sounds like a name.

Speaker 5 (01:09:55):
This is what happened?

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
How's some French sounds like this? If like when I
a kid, I used to write comedy all the time
with my best friend John was right, We used to.
But then you get to a point where you like
fourteen fifteen sixteen, where along with writing comedy and knowing
that you can play and be silly and be funny
and kind of mimic Monty Python and whatever else it was.
You kind of go, right, But I you know, I'm sixteen.

(01:10:16):
I want to be taken seriously, Matt.

Speaker 5 (01:10:17):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
I want to I want to write some earnest music,
you know. I want to do some black and white
films where I sit and look out of windows and
smoke cigarettes. I did that.

Speaker 4 (01:10:26):
That was me.

Speaker 5 (01:10:27):
I'm owning it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
I'm owning it. When I was sixteen, I made movies
where the character was like incredibly cool and smoked cigarettes
and looked out of windows. I did that one of
those movies. When I was sixteen, pretentious, didn't know any better,
was trying trying to get the world to take me seriously,
despite how fucking hilarious it was that me, a ridiculous idiot,

(01:10:48):
was trying to get the world to take him seriously.
I would write a character called Harrison French. That's the name.
It's like these writers were sixteen and they were like,
oh yeah, Harris and friend, that sounds that sounds mysterious, adventurous,
debonair whatever, and it's you know, the biggest trouble is
if you have if you have a movie that's this

(01:11:10):
like dents with sort of things you have to follow
and characters you have to understand.

Speaker 5 (01:11:20):
You need You can't all be first timers.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
You can't all be novices on the production side, you know,
you need someone to shepherd this and kind of go, uh,
you know, you need to put this scene back here,
you need to move that scene there. It was like
it was edited, you know, it was like it was
like they put all the scenes they wanted to edit

(01:11:45):
in order on post it notes on a pin board,
and then one night the pin board fell off the
wall and that it was some posted not all posted it,
but some post it notes got free, and they didn't
know which one where went where, and they just went, ah,
fuck it and pinned it back up how they thought
it went. That's what watching this movie is like, because
it doesn't make any fucking sense. But they needed someone

(01:12:09):
to kind of go, yeah, now, this is the story
you're telling. You don't have eyes on the story you're telling.
You just don't because all this distractive bollocks about fucking
her younger his wife's younger daughter wanting to sleep with
him in a really kind of olidly odd la. Yeah,
like an ongoing joke where I'm like, is this a

(01:12:31):
joke because this isn't a funny movie. And then and
this is the other problem is if you have a
script like this, where where the idea in the script
is slightly flirty yet possibly kind of flirty in a
sort of she's seventeen, he's twenty five, Like it's okay,
kind of question mark kind of thing, flirty way, but

(01:12:52):
nothing ever comes of it. You need an actor and
actress who can pull that off. You need actors who
understand it. The trouble is is this guy is a
chunk of wood, and all this actress is or you know,
female actor is someone who is going to be like, well,
I have to be flirty, right and sexy? So I

(01:13:14):
guess that just means like thrusting my boobs in his
face and winking a lot and saying dirty things. And
it's sort of like right, But that doesn't that doesn't
when you're watching that as an audience in a low
budget movie like this, that's not cute, funny and sexy.

Speaker 5 (01:13:28):
That's creepy and ick and uh and do you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
Know what I mean? Also, it doesn't need to be
in this film like this. The younger sister doesn't do
anything but give me the egg factor. That's all it
is in the movie.

Speaker 4 (01:13:44):
Yeah, she she had no reason to be in the movie, Lacy,
her character had no part. The one thing I would
say that I think we talked about this when we
were messaging beforehand, is that had she gotten anywhere near
Spader in this film, it could have cost her her
entire home movie career that she's carved out for as all,
because they wouldn't have wanted any of that gross Spader's

(01:14:05):
sleaziness to infect their wholesome Hallmark Christmas movie.

Speaker 2 (01:14:09):
Oh, I think it's yeah, I mean I think what
is What is so Skim Crawley about the ending of
this movie is that you know that once Spader is
done with Robin Tunney, like if Spader lived in the movie.
Sorry to spoil it to it right, First of all,

(01:14:30):
nobody watched this movie. Don't seek it out, don't try
and find it's just listen to the show. You don't
need to watch this movie, all right. You never watched
this movie. Never dig it up, leave it where it is.
We watched it, so you don't have to. One me,
watching this once was two times too many.

Speaker 5 (01:14:47):
So so no, but yes, Spader dies in the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:14:52):
If Spader hadn't died after he had been with Robin Tunney,
he would have been with Lacy Chamber. For her, there
would have been no turning back. It would have been
straight to Skinnermax rather than a hallmark. She would have
gone straight the way of Lance. Oh, going back to
the A Team, Lance Lagault, who plays Decker in the

(01:15:15):
eighteen his daughter Mary Lagault, softcore porn actress. So lazy
Schabert would have gone the way of Mary Lagult.

Speaker 4 (01:15:26):
Oh, yes, it would. It would have been over for her.
And so she's fortunate because she was you know, she was.
I think she's born eighty two, so she would have
been in her early twenties playing this, this seventeen year old.
But at that time, you know, she was coming off
of like Party of Five, and I guess she don't
I don't know if she'd done Mean Girls yet or
that was.

Speaker 5 (01:15:41):
Coming from she's been in Party of Five.

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
Yeah, she was the youngest sister on Party of Five.

Speaker 5 (01:15:46):
Was she like a fairly main role in it?

Speaker 4 (01:15:48):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:15:49):
She was, yes, she How did they.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
Cast this film? Right?

Speaker 4 (01:15:53):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
No? So, so I mean, you know, in her I
thought she was an unknown. I thought she was just
some Spokane act is yeah, no, no, no, she was so.

Speaker 3 (01:16:03):
So I mean she did Mean Girls.

Speaker 4 (01:16:05):
That was that was her big role, which Mean Girls
came out actually a year before this. But my hunch
is kind of the same way that you were saying
that that Spader would have signed onto this without realizing
that he was going to get Boston legal. My hunch
is that she signed on for this not knowing that
Mean Girls was going to be this huge cultural phenomenon

(01:16:25):
then like you know, but but then, but yeah, Party
of Five was what.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
She did before that.

Speaker 4 (01:16:31):
And it's interesting because if you go to rhyme dB page,
they don't list Party of Five, is I guess because
she was a big role. But she wasn't Nev Campbell,
Jennifer Love, hewittt you know, Matthew Fox or Scott Wolfe.
So so she wasn't any of those characters. And I
guess because of that, right, but that that was where

(01:16:53):
she got her start. She was very young, of course too,
she was being the youngest sister. But you know, she
after Me Girls, she starts doing those Christmas you know,
there's those Hallmark Christmas movies. That's essentially all she does
now is these Hallmland. I think she does even the
kind of the more religious ones. And I mean, I
don't know that you could get into religious movies if
you've got the Spader sleeves attached to you. And you're right, like,

(01:17:16):
if this movie had another twenty minutes to it, that's
we're probably getting that at least like an inference to
that scene of like maybe her being in his office
and the door closing, right, we're getting something like that there.

Speaker 2 (01:17:29):
But I mean it's it's it's baffling to me the
cost in this movie because the only guy, like out
of the three creatives behind the film, Rich Coaren, Matt
Holloway and At Mockham director and the two writers respectively. Yeah,
Rich Karen prior to this, sure he edits and directs

(01:17:52):
The Basket, and he is an editor on a few
other movies, had Vice, He's an editor on hod Vice,
which is a Shannon Tweet movie.

Speaker 3 (01:18:05):
That's one with Sam Jones. Sam Jones, Yes, that's a
great one.

Speaker 2 (01:18:09):
So Laws of Deception, which looks probably you know, it's
probably another softcore thing with c Thomas hall and and
the Smith directed by Joey Travalta.

Speaker 5 (01:18:20):
So there's the Travolta connection.

Speaker 4 (01:18:24):
I think that's a PM one laws of Deception.

Speaker 3 (01:18:26):
I think that's like the one that he made after Sweeper.

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
If I'm right, did this guy come out of PM Entertainment?

Speaker 4 (01:18:33):
He might have, now that you're mentioning it me wrong.

Speaker 5 (01:18:37):
Thomas Joan Severance movie.

Speaker 3 (01:18:40):
Okay, so no, no, So it wasn't that that. It
wasn't it wasn't PM. It was that Peach or something.

Speaker 4 (01:18:45):
I'm trying.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
There's another no idea that Joan Severance and c. Thomas
Hall had been in more than one movie together. I mean,
I suppose it goes without saying yeah, but yeah, it's
it's so he I mean, I suppose, sure, Okay, he
can maybe command a few H B listers or whatever,

(01:19:08):
but like god, I mean almost everyone. And that's what
I'm saying. I think the fucking treatment of this movie
must have been amazing. And then look at the producers,
and producers are basically the is it Millennium right right,
and Boas Davidson and all those yeah folk.

Speaker 4 (01:19:29):
The crew that I guess apparently have had a falling
out with Cigall and he doesn't. He stopped making movies
with them and started doing them with or we created
his own companies.

Speaker 2 (01:19:39):
They're the team behind the Expendables exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
so so odd that, yeah, I mean, just so odd
the history behind this movie. That's why, like I was
saying to you, we were texting last night, and I
was like, you know, all these big Hollywood movies, even
something as Mad and Gorilla style Punk Lips now has

(01:20:02):
hours of documentary footage and making ofs and commentaries and
behind the scenes and something like that, and it's wonderful.
Of course, I want to know how those movies are made.
But at a certain point, all Hollywood movies have made
the same, you know what I mean, And at a
certain point, all actors are just going to be like, yes,
it was very nice working with X. They're not going
to tell any like true behind the scenes stories. I

(01:20:23):
want a Mark Hartley, not quite Hollywood Machety Maidens, Unleashed,
Electric Boogloo, the Story of Cannon Films type documentary about
just the making of Shadow of Fear, because I cannot
wrap my head entirely around how this thing got made

(01:20:45):
except that obviously it's director. Rich Cohen has sort of been,
you know, on the fringes of the industry or at
least within the sort of you know, B list C
list independent studio type area of the industry for a
handful of years before this Camelot.

Speaker 3 (01:21:03):
Yeah, I mean I think, I mean, everybody for the
most part is still with us that made this movie.

Speaker 5 (01:21:08):
And so I feel like, are you saying that I've
just got to go out there and make this happen?

Speaker 3 (01:21:13):
Well, I think it's just I don't I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:21:16):
Well, No, I feel like Mark Hartley is someone who
could maybe get his foot in the door, and he's
just got to get those lamps up in the screen
behind in the camera.

Speaker 3 (01:21:24):
I just sit these people down and just be like, so, yeah,
let's let's.

Speaker 4 (01:21:27):
Start with you.

Speaker 2 (01:21:28):
What if I just got one on IMDb pro and
just worked my way down the cast list, emailing pr
people and just seeing if anyone for this film, anyone
I would take. I would take Janie Saucers. I would

(01:21:49):
take Shirley Branner, if Shirley Branner would talk to me,
because I mean, Shirley Breanner would have you know, stories.

Speaker 4 (01:21:58):
Well, because I wonder if even like the screenwriters now
were too big for you.

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):
But yeah, so I was going to talk about this
as well, so the other bookend, the madness bookends. People
remember seven hours ago was talking about the Madness bookends.
The madness bookends to this movie is that Matt Holloway
and Art Markham, who, by the way, are eighty percent
to blame for how bad this film is. Okay, I

(01:22:24):
think Rich what's the name Rich Cohen? Rather sorry, I'm
surprised this movie is edited as atrociously as this movie
is edited, considering he was an editor for five movies.
But I will see this for Rich, Karen. There are
some shots in this film that if it wasn't on

(01:22:44):
like grainy shot on video type thing, I don't know
whether it's shot video, whether it's like late stage TV films.

Speaker 4 (01:22:55):
It looks very much like this was like like kind
of one of those made for TV, like Lifetime, but
like that that late nineties early two thousands made for
TV Lifetime.

Speaker 2 (01:23:04):
Yes, it looks it looks it has the same kind
of grainy look as either a Lifetime movie or a
soft core second flick on on Cinemax or whatever. Yeah,
and it looks like that. And and so I'm guessing
he just grabbed a crew from you know whatever, Hallmark,
Lifetime PM film was shooting there and they were just like, oh,

(01:23:28):
this one will do. Maybe it was the PM Entertainment
crew because PM Entertainment was sort of over by this point,
and maybe they were just like the old PM crew
that he worked with.

Speaker 5 (01:23:37):
Who knows, Like, maybe they're like, why are no cars
blowing up?

Speaker 4 (01:23:41):
What's kind of really Rich Cohen as a as a producer.
He did the Ward, which was that the junk up
the carpenter. Yeah, is that made in Spokane? He's the
one from Spokane. I think, right, Rich Karen, isn't he
from Spokane?

Speaker 3 (01:23:56):
I think you're right.

Speaker 4 (01:23:57):
Yeah, I think you're right. So I wonder if he
was born.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
He's known for the basket, the Ward and the river burders.

Speaker 4 (01:24:02):
Yeah, I wonder if this it was. It was yeah,
Medical Lake, Washington, USA. Yeah, so eastern state. So eastern state,
right east. You know Spokan's eastern Washington. So yeah, so
I guess if you need to get something done in Washington, yeah,
you call Rich Cohen and he takes care of you.

Speaker 2 (01:24:20):
All take care of you. And uh but yeah, look
at that. He edited a Shannon Tweed and a CEE
Thomas Howe. See Thomas Hall, who weirdly at that point
was almost the male Shannon Tweed Like, when see Thomas
Howe was in a movie, You're like, why is there
so much sex in this movie? The last time I

(01:24:40):
the last actor I want to see, you know, faking
kind of lingus on Joan Severance is see Thomas Howe,
but here I am watching it and that's where my life.

Speaker 5 (01:24:50):
That's the turn my life is taken.

Speaker 4 (01:24:52):
Yeah, he's got producer credits on a ton of DTV films.
Like I want to tag him at this point, because
I mean he's he did Lies and Illusions, the film
that Christian Slater did with with Cuba Gooding Junior, also
Wrong Turn a Hot Tahoe, another Cuba Gooding Junior, The Ward,
The hit List and other Cuba. So apparently he did
stuff with Cuba Gooding Junior as a producer, and then

(01:25:15):
he starts working with like Cage Nick Cage, and Travolta.
He does I Am Wrath Uh Travolta once a week,
So he's worked because I was gonna say he's worked
with both Travolta, right, because he's worked with he did
Joey Travolta. Right, he edited Joey Travolta movies, and now
he's working with John Travolta.

Speaker 2 (01:25:32):
Also the producer on a movie he called My Son
Is Gay, which has gotta be a lah a minute
written by Monoccam God, can we change the name of
the movie. No, it must be Ivy my Son Is Gay.

(01:25:57):
It's too funny. Uh that yeah, that is.

Speaker 4 (01:26:02):
Vincent his story talking about sopranos. We got the sal Rubenek.
You gotta have Sol Rubenek.

Speaker 5 (01:26:09):
If you're making a movie called ove my Son is Gay.

Speaker 3 (01:26:12):
Yes, you have to have Gasal on speed carminal lecture.

Speaker 4 (01:26:18):
So yesterday I just feel like there was probably.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
Like I know I've said this before, but I would
so much more have rather hung out on DTV sets
than Hollywood sets. DTV sets have got to be way
more interesting. Oh yeah, yeah, you know what I mean
than Hollywood sets. So I think I want to speak
to Rich Cohen. Let's see if I can get Rich
Cohen on the blower. But no. So the miraculous thing

(01:26:45):
about Matt Holloway and Markham and and the thing that
I just do not I do this is the this
is the missing link B movie stuff. The next thing
they are credited as writing is two thousand and eight's
iron Man. Now, what do we know about iron Man

(01:27:07):
that John Favreau always says, He always says, there was
no fucking script. We started shooting before there was a script,
and that me, Robert Downey Junior, Jeff Bridges and other
cast members who were also creative came up with a
script as it went along.

Speaker 5 (01:27:21):
And what's interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:27:22):
About that, Matt, if you're allowed, if you allow me
a little hypothesis right now. I have stated already that
I think this movie Shadow of Fear was sold off
the back of a really good idea in a treatment
that they just could not then communicate in script form.

Speaker 5 (01:27:40):
I think the same goes for iron Man.

Speaker 2 (01:27:43):
I think they had an idea, like I think after
everyone went nuts for the treatment of Shadow of Fear,
but before the movie came out, they were already taking
meetings based on the Shadow of Fear treatment, and they
were taking meetings a some action sci fi movie that

(01:28:04):
they wanted to make with a treatment, a treatment for
iron Man, but it wasn't iron Man at the time.
It's just a treatment for like a sci fi action
DTV kind of thing, right, And then someone went these
kids have got it and then made them script iron Man,
and when it got on John Favreau and Robert Danney
Junior's desk, they were like, there isn't a movie here,

(01:28:27):
but we can turn it into something.

Speaker 5 (01:28:29):
Right, that makes sense to me.

Speaker 2 (01:28:31):
What doesn't make sense to me is that this if
that's the chain of events, that makes sense to me.
But we know that's not true because this comes out
in four is it? This one comes out right? An
iron Man comes out in O eight. So by the
time iron Man is being written, like let's say in
six o seven, this movie's out. People have seen this movie.

(01:28:56):
Someone needs two it because they're like, oh, we've got
this great specscript from Matt Holloway and Markham. Let's see
what they did before, Right, no one sat down and
watched Shadow of Fear. And when give these guys a
blank check to right iron Man?

Speaker 5 (01:29:10):
No One, no one?

Speaker 2 (01:29:12):
They would mean like, get these guys away from Iron
Man as fast as humanly fucking possible.

Speaker 4 (01:29:17):
Yeah, it makes no sense when people talk about failing up.
I mean because it is again talking about these four
movie arcs, right, Shadow of Fear, iron Man, Punisher, war Zone,
and Transformers The Last Night, like like like, who wat
you know, and then of course after that, they're doing
Men in Black, doing a charge.

Speaker 3 (01:29:36):
They've got the Craven movie that's coming out this year.

Speaker 4 (01:29:39):
Which I mean, considering how Madam Webb went, maybe Craven
is as bonkers, like maybe like as much as as
Madam Webb. It became this like, you know, like a
phenomenon of bad movie ness or however, I want to
say that, what if Craven is even worse?

Speaker 5 (01:29:57):
But did un Choted have a big to do?

Speaker 2 (01:30:00):
It wasn't released forever and it was considered a terrible
fucking movie, and I think so, right, right, yeah, So
what's funny about this is this right, So, Punish the
war Zone. I almost entirely forgot they wrote punish the
war Zone, Punish a war Zone. A lot of punishers
fans favorite punish a film, but I am. I am
so willing to bet. And I've listened to the commentary

(01:30:22):
on Punish your war Zone, and I have an idea
that Lexi Alexander did a lot of fucking rewrites on
Punish a war Zone. I really do, because I remember
listening to a commentary with her and I was like,
because that's another thing people don't realize, but let you know,
Punish a war Zone actually directed by a woman?

Speaker 5 (01:30:40):
Right again?

Speaker 2 (01:30:42):
Why we should we should let more women direct action
films because they just be brutal?

Speaker 3 (01:30:46):
As the gardener that the Gary Davis was co directed
by a woman.

Speaker 2 (01:30:51):
Yeah, yeah, but I've got a feeling, and I have
to listen to the commentary again. But I think in
the commentary and Punish the war Zone, she basically says
that she like put a lot of work into the script,
almost entirely. That's the case.

Speaker 4 (01:31:03):
So I.

Speaker 5 (01:31:06):
So again the thing is right, Shadow.

Speaker 2 (01:31:10):
Fear fucking terrible Iron Man, no script, Jon Favreau, Robert
Downey Jr. Jeff Bridges had to basically make it up
as they went along, right, punishal war Zone. I'm pretty
sure someone will checked me on it. But the director
basically rewrote the movie as they were going on Transformers
last night. I don't know the Transformers franchise, but forgive

(01:31:31):
me if I'm wrong. Isn't that the one that's considered
like the worst of all the Transformer films.

Speaker 4 (01:31:36):
It could be. I don't think I've seen any of them,
so it could be. It definitely could be. Came out
twenty seventeen. So that makes sense, right, because didn't they
go on a large hiatus for making those movies for
a while and they finally can't mean which you think
about it from paramount standpoint, right, they have like three
they have three main franchises, right that They've got Star Trek,
they've got Mission Impossible, and they've got Transformers, and so

(01:31:57):
to save for one of them, We're just going to
take a break and not do any for a while.
Probably meant that that this was, like, yeah, it wasn't
very good.

Speaker 2 (01:32:06):
Men in Black International was by far the most attacked
film of the Men in Black franchise, Like I think
that bomb, right, Yeah, and then Uncharted had a really
really rocky production.

Speaker 5 (01:32:18):
So this is again a question I under look.

Speaker 2 (01:32:21):
I understand where with actors and writers and directors that
like they can get away with maybe two maybe three
flops and then they either have to have a hit
or they go to DTV.

Speaker 5 (01:32:32):
Right, Yeah, how is it these writers?

Speaker 2 (01:32:36):
What I've got to believe, Matt, that these writers are
part of a shadowy Hollywood cabal that meet on Tuesday nights,
and that shadow of fear is really that James Spader
is the king of Hollywood. Okay, wait, Matt, I have
a conspiracy theory. Okay, no, wait, this is spooky because

(01:33:00):
in Shadow of Fear, forgive me if I'm incorrect, James
Spader makes these criminals redo their crimes for others' benefits, right, yeah,
and won't let them out of this loop. Yeah. These
guys Matt Holloway and art Markham. Now I'm understanding why
he called him fucking Harrison French because his name's art

(01:33:22):
Markham French. I'm like, all right, art Markham. Anyway, Matt,
their crime is they're not very good at writing screenplays.
So because Spader is the king of Hollywood and pulls

(01:33:43):
the strings behind the scenes with his clammy moist hands,
just pinching at the strings. Right, Oh my god, Matt,
I'm having such a like everything is connected here because
in Age of Old Spader sings there ain't no strings
on me, and he's the puppet master. Anyway, I think

(01:34:07):
Spader's looked at them, and god, look, I was in
your first movie. Your crime is you're not very good screenwriters.
I want you to continue to be not very good screenwriters.
And every time an executive comes along who's like, these
guys are not very good screen.

Speaker 5 (01:34:28):
And Spainer's like, white, why would you think that? And
they go, and they go because we have ears and eyes.

Speaker 2 (01:34:37):
And Spader would go, okay, have have them like die
in a car wreck, or have them like you know,
disappeared in the Las Vegas desert or whatever you haven't
bumped off, or he'd have them shipped off to like
regional soap operas, like soap operas they make in like
Detroit and Buffalo or whatever, right, local soap operas like

(01:34:59):
they have. He the executives like shipped off like the
Catholic church ship's child molesters around the country. He's just
paying executives who come along go I think I'll mark him,
Matt Holloway shit. And he's just like, fuck it, You're
gonna go off and produce a reality TV show in Banga, Maine.
But he keeps them repeating their same crime of writing

(01:35:23):
shitty script.

Speaker 3 (01:35:24):
Come on, Matt, have I not just I think you
nailed it.

Speaker 4 (01:35:27):
I think you you yes, And just to kind of
take it a little bit further in the trivia for
the Transformers one that so that Transformers movie it didn't
quite do three times its budgets.

Speaker 3 (01:35:39):
I think that's supposed to be like the Hallmark.

Speaker 4 (01:35:40):
It made like six hundred million on a budget of
like two hundred and thirty million, two hundred and seventeen million,
So it's like it didn't do so bad. But I
think it's like you said, it was like people didn't
like it. But apparently Matt Holloway is a fan of
Downton Abbey, and he jokingly said that Jim Carter, who
played the butler I guess on Downton Abbey, should always cognate.
I don't know who Cogmit is in the movie, but

(01:36:02):
when he was shocked when he found out that Michael
Bay got this Cogmen character a person to get Jim
Carter to do this Cogman character, So Dalton Abbey, he's he's,
you know, he's like he's thinking of characters in Transformers
movies as Dalton Abbey characters.

Speaker 5 (01:36:23):
No, but that's wonderful.

Speaker 2 (01:36:24):
It's like the whole thing is like it's upstairs downstairs,
but with Transformers.

Speaker 5 (01:36:29):
Wait. Wait, haven't I made that joke before?

Speaker 2 (01:36:33):
I don't know, No, no, no, Matt, Matt, Matt, I'm
getting a creepy Matrix vibe. I'm getting a creepy deja
vu matrix vibe.

Speaker 4 (01:36:44):
I don't remember it was Transformers. I think you said
it was upstairs desk, there were something else it was.
I don't really it was Transformers. Think it was something else.

Speaker 2 (01:36:51):
Can't you imagine upstairs? And he's like Antimus Prime is like,
oh my god, Lady macolm, I can't believe you built
all the marbles.

Speaker 4 (01:37:01):
Oh.

Speaker 5 (01:37:01):
I was playing croquet with Piffings and Toddy.

Speaker 2 (01:37:08):
We were listening to the chazz stylings of bitching scrubs
we could have. We're gonna have him play at the
tea party next week.

Speaker 5 (01:37:19):
Oh that sounds lovely. Wait what is that?

Speaker 2 (01:37:21):
Is that?

Speaker 5 (01:37:22):
The guns of war?

Speaker 4 (01:37:23):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:37:23):
My goodness, with war hanging over the stately home, how
will this show get any more? Tens? Uh?

Speaker 5 (01:37:34):
I fucking hate that.

Speaker 2 (01:37:35):
I mean, look, I love the people, love down to Abbey,
and I love that it sort of gave England another
little boost in America whatever because it became like the
latest thing.

Speaker 5 (01:37:44):
But god, I hate those funks.

Speaker 2 (01:37:46):
Oh but we're rich.

Speaker 5 (01:37:47):
Oh well, Lord, love of Duns, we're poor. How are
the wars coming? How is the war coming? Anyway?

Speaker 4 (01:37:56):
But this is this is the kind of stuff that
Matt Holloway around what he's turning Transformers into. That like
that's what he wants Transformers to be, is you know.

Speaker 2 (01:38:08):
The Transformers.

Speaker 5 (01:38:11):
After his prime is Lord Love a doc?

Speaker 4 (01:38:14):
And yeah, the next movie is going to be like
a period adaptation of Fortumatic Sports Barades End or something
like that, with the Transformers all dressed up in their
World War Two era outfits and stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:38:29):
We actually when writing.

Speaker 2 (01:38:32):
Transformers Go to Camp, the eighteenth installment Transformers franchise, I
was highly inspired by the Derek Jacobee starring I Claudius
from the seventeenth What Yes, I like to see fucking
Bumblebee as Claudious. You've You've gone mad, You've got insane. Yeah.

(01:39:00):
When I was writing Craven the Hunter, what I was
really thinking of.

Speaker 4 (01:39:08):
Was it was was.

Speaker 2 (01:39:11):
Jeremy Irons in the adaptation of Bride's Head revisited.

Speaker 4 (01:39:19):
What I think what I write, because only Matt Holloway
is going to think Crave right.

Speaker 2 (01:39:25):
Yes, he's together, like when we write Uncharted Too, I'm
basing it very heavily on Jennifer Early's version of Pride
and Prejudice. Colin Firth in that film is absolutely magnificent,

(01:39:45):
and I would love to get Colin Firth to voice
an anthropomorphic Ostridge character that we've decided to call lead
and Charlie, how are you going on about?

Speaker 4 (01:39:59):
Well, it's what's going to happen is Craven is going
to come out and everybody's going to be like, what
in the hell is Craven? Like we thought we thought
Madam Web was bad, but we're going to know why
Craven is so bad because we can watch it.

Speaker 3 (01:40:10):
We're gonna be like, oh, oh no, look at that.

Speaker 4 (01:40:12):
It's better than come from No, it makes sense, dude.

Speaker 2 (01:40:15):
We'll come back ten years from now. And then what
are they making? They're making a movie about every two
or three years right now, every two or three years,
because Spader will not let them stop. There was a
gap between Punishing war Zone and Transformers the last night
of nine years.

Speaker 4 (01:40:37):
I didn't notice that, right, so they broke What else?

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
What was he doing during that time? Oh wait, they weren't, like,
it's not like his other stuff. Additional crew and producer.
They're a producer on Uncharted. Wow, Spader's even got them
as a producer credit, which is just so erroneous. He's

(01:41:03):
like it's time we enter you into your executive producer face.

Speaker 4 (01:41:08):
I mean, is it possible that Spader is the one
who's feeding in these ideas, Like, no, you're going to
base a transformer's character on a character from Downton Abbey,
And you're going to tell people in the interview that
you watch but I don't watch Downton Aby. You watch
Downton Abbey. Now that's part of your penance.

Speaker 2 (01:41:28):
Him having to say that he watches Downton Abbey is
part of what he's having to do in favor to
someone else in the Kabba. And I don't know if
anyone listening is going with this because they haven't seen
Shadow of Fear, And maybe you need to have seen
Shadow Fear to really understand this. But we're saying, you know,
there's a malicious group. Spader is the kingpin. He's pulling

(01:41:52):
the strings on all the stuff. And if let's say,
someone who gets caught for fraud has to keep perpetuating
that fraud so that businessman B can get rich or
whatever and vicever, and then businessman B has to allow
his hitman to kill so and so so that the

(01:42:13):
guy is doing the fraud. Like everyone's helping each other
out by having to do that crime over and over again.
And so what we don't know is maybe like Cusack,
I amn't what, Oh my god, I'm watching Cusack and
Spader next week in True Colors. But maybe it's because
of you know, they've never been in another movie together, right,
I don't think right, he's not in a Cusack doesn't

(01:42:35):
crop up for a bit in Lincoln, does he or something? No? Right,
So Spader after True Colors. I'm going to find this
out next week, Matt when I watch True Colors. But
he's like, no, Cusack, You've had your time. And that
explains Cusack's ever slowly falling from grace and descent into madness.

(01:42:57):
Spader's probably the one that made James would go weird,
you know what I mean? And James Woods He's like,
you've done far too many liberal things, James, E boy,
I need you to now be an insane, mad right
wing person. And Woods Woods He's probably sat at home
being like, you've lost me my career, You've lost me,
my credibility, you've lost me everything.

Speaker 5 (01:43:18):
Do I really have to?

Speaker 2 (01:43:19):
Because Ohna Woods made like I don't know what the
comment was that Woods first made that set him on
the trajectory. But that was his first crime. James Woods's
first crime was being like, well, I think Mexicans should
go back to Mexico or something like that. Like he
made some statement that you're like, well, it's kind of
like a racist uncle, but whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:43:39):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:43:42):
But then once he'd done it once and been canceled
for it, Spader showed up and it's.

Speaker 5 (01:43:48):
Like, you have to keep doing that crime now.

Speaker 2 (01:43:51):
You have to keep being a disgusting, predatory, racist bigger.

Speaker 5 (01:43:58):
You have to just keep doing that now forever.

Speaker 2 (01:44:02):
And He's gonna be like, but people love me from
when I used to do like super liberal movies and
work with Oliver Stone and do movies that talked about
the dangers of prison system and illegal marijuana and stuff
like that.

Speaker 5 (01:44:16):
No, James, that was former you.

Speaker 2 (01:44:19):
Well, so I'm going to be reduced to ranting garbage
on Twitter about Donald Trump.

Speaker 5 (01:44:24):
Yeah, that's and.

Speaker 2 (01:44:25):
And and having to weirdly walk around with a disgustingly
young wife. Yep, that's James, That's exactly what you're gonna do.
And I've got to do that for the rest of time. Yes,
it's all intertwined, Matt. I could I could. I could
pry if you find that point where someone in Hollywood
when Kevin Spacey whatever it is, right, Kevin Spacey, we

(01:44:48):
used to love it.

Speaker 5 (01:44:48):
We were like, he plays creepy really well.

Speaker 2 (01:44:51):
Now when you see Kevin Spacey you're just like, oh, no,
Kevin Spacey was just creepy, right.

Speaker 5 (01:44:59):
It was that he did it really well.

Speaker 2 (01:45:02):
It's just that like I saw Kevin's and I know
he's been acquitted or whatever, but like there was an
interview he did with The Guardian, I think after he
was acquitted, and I couldn't watch more than a minute
of it without being like, oh, dear Christ, you were
just damn it, like you were just so there's like you,
there's no way with a straight face that you can

(01:45:23):
play the victim.

Speaker 4 (01:45:24):
You.

Speaker 2 (01:45:24):
I see behind your eyes that you are an insidious
fiend of the highest order. Whether you did the things
that you're accused of or not. I'm not saying that.
I'm saying that when I look in your eyes, Kevin Spacey,
you are an insidious fiend, and I want nothing to
do with you. It's like, remember, there's a tipping point,
and I kind of like this. There was a point

(01:45:45):
in mel Gibson's career where you would interview where you'd
be interviewed, you'd be like, Oh, it's charming, funny, sexy,
quick witted mel Gibson.

Speaker 5 (01:45:55):
And then slowly it was like, oh, it's a bit unnervous.

Speaker 2 (01:46:00):
How he sort of nervously laughs all the time and
how he like quickly says stuff that you think, wait,
is was that a recent thing?

Speaker 5 (01:46:09):
I think I described it recently.

Speaker 2 (01:46:11):
Was it with you that that mel Gibson looks like
a man constantly holding back the demon?

Speaker 5 (01:46:17):
It was because we did the.

Speaker 2 (01:46:19):
Lord of the Rings, the the I want to say
a racist thing, No, you can't say a racist thing,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (01:46:26):
The two faces thing. Mel Gibson is like that.

Speaker 2 (01:46:29):
There was a point where mel Gibson went from like, oh,
it's mel Gibson, great to be And it was long
before the Sugar Teds thing.

Speaker 5 (01:46:36):
It was like the sugar Teds thing.

Speaker 2 (01:46:37):
By that point you were like, yes, mel Gibson's insane,
but it was the passion of the Christ maybe mel
Gibson or whatever. There was a certain point where you're
just like, oh, that switched off. That's when Spain gets involved.
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:46:53):
Another one is Gina Carano where she made like some
off hinted jokes about people using pronoun and thought she
was funny making fun of pronouns.

Speaker 3 (01:47:02):
And I wonder if Spader's like, Okay, that's it.

Speaker 4 (01:47:04):
You're in.

Speaker 2 (01:47:05):
Now.

Speaker 4 (01:47:05):
You've got to start comparing COVID restrictions to Nazi Germany.
And you've got to keep pushing until Disney fires you, right,
and and and that was because the only thing that
makes sense when you've got the career that she had
going for her, that you would screw it up so badly. Yes,
it makes much more sense to know that Spader was
forcing her to do that than it was that she

(01:47:26):
just was dumb enough to make these comments on Twitter.

Speaker 5 (01:47:28):
Well, there we go. So we have convinced ourselves it's funny.

Speaker 2 (01:47:32):
I love Matt. We're both storytellers, and I love how
we contrive to have a story arc to each of
our episodes, the Hollywood Video one still being my favorite,
But the story arc here was we started thinking that
Shadow of Fear was a gobbled, messy, badly edited, badly written,

(01:47:54):
confusing pile of what the fuck sauce? Sorry no, no,
using pile of what the fuck laundry? Right, and we
have concluded that no, no, no, no, no, Shadow of
Fear is actually the blueprint that lays down James Spader's

(01:48:16):
Machiavelian puppetry of the entire Hollywood system.

Speaker 4 (01:48:21):
Yeah yeah, I mean what an arc?

Speaker 2 (01:48:24):
Mat Yeah, what an arc.

Speaker 4 (01:48:26):
But it's the thing that makes the most sense, right.

Speaker 2 (01:48:34):
You said that was such a straight face, It was delicious.
You were like, yes, but it's the thing that makes
the most sense. Just think about that for a minute.
What makes most sense about any of the stuff that
we're dealing with in the world, Because it could go
further than Hollywood math.

Speaker 4 (01:48:53):
Oh yes, the fact the idea of Spader blackmailing people
to be this ridiculous makes so much more sense than
anything else that we're I mean, think about my climate
change deniers right where it's like where it's like, here
are your choices? Right, It's that all of these scientists
and all of their peer reviewed articles, they have a
conspiracy to tell us that the planet is warming just

(01:49:17):
you know, ubiliously, you know, and the billionaire.

Speaker 2 (01:49:21):
Or they want to sell us big wind right right, Well.

Speaker 4 (01:49:24):
The billionaire oil companies are exposing this insidious conspiracy that's
run by these all the thousands of climate scientists, right,
Or maybe it's just that these billionaire oil companies are
trying to obtuse gate things because they want to keep
making billions of dollars. And then, you know, you know,
but it's like for people to believe the first thing.
To be dumb enough to believe the first.

Speaker 2 (01:49:43):
Thing, Yeah, well, you have to have a mouthpiece like
a Fox News that's going to parrot the nonsensical gibberish
that people will then listen to and and buy because
it's wins and repeat, wins and repeat, wins and repeat,
and they and suddenly it becomes as valid a talking
point as the other scientist thing because without so, Spader

(01:50:08):
would have to be pulling, you know, all of the
strings for all of the news broadcasts and everything. And
we we're basically living in a Spader style.

Speaker 5 (01:50:21):
World.

Speaker 2 (01:50:23):
Sorry, we're basically living in a kind of a Spader
Matrix style world that is culminating in you know, we
are getting to a point where Spader will basically become Thanos, right,
because Spader will look at his creation and make no mistake, Matt,

(01:50:45):
I think we've both realized we are in Spader's creation, Yes, right,
And we all know that creation is sex, and so
therefore we are in Spader's sex. Somewhere in Spader's we
are in his web of fluids. So somewhere at a

(01:51:11):
certain point, he's going to look down at us and
become and go big bit based on my trying to
level everything out, based on my being like, well, if
the murder's over here, I was long in murdering people
that at least benefit these people over here who are
doing fraud. And that is benefiting these people over here
who are destroying the environment. But that's benefiting, do you

(01:51:33):
know what I mean? He will have been trying to
balance everything off, but you can never balance that, Matt,
and it's caused such violent division between both halves of
the world. Spader Thanos is going to have to click
his finger and get rid of fifty percent of us.
And he doesn't know right now the only reason we're
still alive in this Spader matrix of his own creation

(01:51:57):
that is possibly fueled by his fluids. Let's just say
that I'm saying that those gloopy pods that we're all
sleeping in in the evil matrix Spader underworld are all
strung together with Spader's chism.

Speaker 5 (01:52:12):
That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:52:15):
To quote Bill Hicks roping arcs of gism and so
and so, what was the saying, Oh, yeah, so because
he sees, you know, we're only hanging on because he's
looking at everything and going, I don't know which side

(01:52:35):
when I click my finger, I want to get rid
of right, you know what I mean? Because he's like, well,
if I keep the if I keep one side that's mad,
I mean without without another side to attack that particular side.
That if I keep the right side right, without a
left to attack mercilessly and bully mercilessly, they will turn

(01:52:58):
in on themselves and eat themselves. So no good can
come from that because with a nature of wors a vacuum.
So if you remove the thing that's antagonizing, antagonizing them
the most, Like if they woke up tomorrow and all
LGBTQI plus people didn't exist anymore.

Speaker 5 (01:53:13):
They wouldn't know what to do with them.

Speaker 2 (01:53:14):
Wait, what what?

Speaker 5 (01:53:17):
What do you mean all the Mexicans have disappeared?

Speaker 2 (01:53:19):
What?

Speaker 4 (01:53:20):
What?

Speaker 5 (01:53:21):
I don't know? But who am I angry at now?
So they would have to they would have to figure
it out.

Speaker 2 (01:53:26):
And if he kept the other side, it would just
be a lot of tweet people sitting around discussing. They
would never make anything, nothing would ever get created because
they would put a script down in front of someone,
and someone would be like, you can't make that joke,
you can't say that thing, you can't wear those clothes,
you can't go to that place, and you'd be and
and everyone would be discussing things in such a way

(01:53:46):
as to not positively offend anyone whatsoever, and tripping over
their tongues, and ultimately everyone would just end up sitting quietly.
No one would have any sex, and we'd all die.
That's what would happen. Right, So neither side has has
a good place. The only thing to do is to
bring us all back together. But he is too deep

(01:54:07):
in now, Matt, and we can't do it. We are
too deep in Spaine. I kunda do it. But you're right,
Matt when you say it's the only thing that makes
any sense.

Speaker 4 (01:54:16):
Because I mean this movie. It's it's like I feel
like you can make the joke about you know, bad
movies that oh this is like textbook like how not
to make a movie, right, But it's like this movie
it's like they're just all these pieces. It just never
seemed to go anywhere. But the other thing, too, is
we just have a we have a main character who's
that good? And I also wonder about that too, with

(01:54:39):
with with Holloway and Markham, Like did people look at
that and say, can you imagine what kind of iron
Man we would have gotten without the rewrites? I mean
that iron Man, that movie is transformational and comic book movies, right,
I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:54:51):
You know what if we move iron Man up to
Spekane and we make iron Man a wealthy landowner and
maybe we cast James Spader.

Speaker 4 (01:55:02):
It is.

Speaker 6 (01:55:03):
It is weird though, dude, Spader and Downey Junior being
so tight, right, and Spader having start in this movie
right before iron Man and these two fucking chimps writing it,
And do you think that he was like not only am.

Speaker 4 (01:55:21):
I Ah, he was sipping a small cup of coffee
when when Robert Danney Junior calls and he's sipping this
and he goes, I have just the guys to write
your movie.

Speaker 5 (01:55:31):
Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:55:33):
Yeah, And then no, no, no, I'm going one further, dude,
I'm saying Spader ensures Downey Junior's casting right, because no
one was casting Downey Jr. At the time.

Speaker 3 (01:55:45):
That's a good point. That's a great point.

Speaker 4 (01:55:47):
And and and wow, so so I mean Spader is
that that's how Spader ends up in Age of Ultron?

Speaker 2 (01:55:55):
Oh, Age of Ultron is the whole conspiracy coming full circle?
My friend, you got to believe it.

Speaker 4 (01:56:00):
Yes, Yeah, it's like it's almost like an unofficial sequel
to this movie is Age of Ultron? Right, forget being
Avengers Marvel movie. It's it's it's a it's a sequel
to shadow Play.

Speaker 5 (01:56:13):
Yeah, a shadow shadow. I don't know what shadow Play
sounds like a shadow tweed movie.

Speaker 4 (01:56:21):
I think it might be a Cooper Gooding Junior movie
that that the director produced produced.

Speaker 2 (01:56:27):
Maybe. I think everyone thought when Age of Alton came
out that the uh Downey Junior was like throwing spade
to a bone, like Downey Junior had got so big
that he was just putting his brat pack friends in
his movies now. But that's not the case, because it's
not like Downey. It's not like Andrew McCarthy cropped up

(01:56:47):
in a fucking Marvel movie or fucking uh.

Speaker 4 (01:56:52):
Wasn't in a Marvel movie.

Speaker 2 (01:56:54):
Although so Anthony Michael Hole is in DC's Batman. I think,
but that's he's still not in a Marvel movie. Yeah,
but you uh, it's not like Downy jun was doing.

Speaker 5 (01:57:05):
We now know.

Speaker 2 (01:57:06):
It's the other way round Spider was in Shadow of Fear.
Spader made these guys right iron Man, Spader gets Downy
Junior cast in Iron Man, right, and then years later,
down Spader comes back to play Downey Junior's nemesis also

(01:57:28):
in Age of Ultron Downey Junior. I mean, it's terrible
writing in Age of Ultron because basically, Downy Junior just goes, oh, look,
we could make this big evil robot shield that would
in case the world and do all our jobs for us.
And one person goes, I don't think we should do that,
and he goes, fuck it, We're doing it. And that's

(01:57:49):
like the whole the whole movie, the only reason Ultron exists.
But it's Downey Junior that brings Spader into life in
that movie. And so I think, Matt, we have uncovered
a corner of Hollywood that was hitherto uncovered.

Speaker 5 (01:58:05):
And sometimes you need.

Speaker 2 (01:58:06):
To draw deep into the Spader weld for Shadow of
Fear to make that happen, and we made.

Speaker 5 (01:58:13):
That happen again.

Speaker 4 (01:58:15):
It's the only thing that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:58:17):
It is the only thing that makes sense. And I think.

Speaker 5 (01:58:22):
It is the only thing that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:58:24):
I love, by the way, the whole Spader conspiracy.

Speaker 5 (01:58:27):
That that's ah, that is just a joy.

Speaker 2 (01:58:30):
So you know how everyone says about these great worst
movies of all time, troll to the room, these kind
of things, like really, they just go, ah, these are
the worst movies of all time.

Speaker 5 (01:58:43):
They badly made. Blah blah blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 (01:58:46):
A lot of those movies that people cite well either
very low budget, very independent. They were the first thing
the person had made. They were first attempt that eked
out by kind of you know, willpower and spit and
sordust kind of thing, and they just by sheer force
of will they ended up getting screened. Right, Well, I

(01:59:12):
can never consider that a bad movie. Yep, I just can't.
Like you, a bunch of people you've never heard of
got together made something and now it's on your TV.
Right And I don't mean you know, you know what

(01:59:33):
I'm saying. And sure are they bad, like yes, but
they are bad for lots of reasons that are understandable, forgivable, explainable,
and maybe there's the nugget of an idea in that
movie that you're like, well that we understand where that
came from, right, Yeah, something like this.

Speaker 5 (01:59:54):
That has such.

Speaker 2 (01:59:57):
I'm not pedigree, but like it has a really strong
cast as a director who's been on film sets for ages,
and it has at its core a really good, strong idea.
This has no business being as terrible as it is,

(02:00:18):
you know what I mean. And the occasional great shot
like the elevator shot with Tunny upfront and Spader in
the background, and the rack focus from the two and
the shot of Aidan Quinn and we didn't even talk about,
but Aiden Quinn basically acts.

Speaker 5 (02:00:32):
Like he's in a well he's shot. It's so weird.

Speaker 2 (02:00:36):
The film color seems to change because every scene that
he's in looks like a nineteen seventies French detective on
WI film, like I am Detective on We and I
stare out of windows and talk about.

Speaker 5 (02:00:49):
The human condition.

Speaker 2 (02:00:52):
Right, every scene he was in, I'm like, he's got
seventies hair, he's wearing like a seventies suit and the
whole thing is filmed like I bet I can make
a good movie out of this film. I bet I could,
because I think it's a question of editing and maybe
shooting a couple of extra scenes. But there is some No,

(02:01:14):
there are some shots in the film that are really nice.

Speaker 5 (02:01:16):
I will give it that.

Speaker 2 (02:01:17):
There are some shots in the film where you can go, Okay, oh,
Matt the dance sequence, Yes, dude, that's the Downton Abbey.

Speaker 5 (02:01:29):
Fucking that's the ref.

Speaker 4 (02:01:32):
Ah.

Speaker 2 (02:01:33):
Yeah, so they haven't Yeah, so they have a cotillion?

Speaker 5 (02:01:38):
Right do you know what is that? What it is like?
Or a prom or what is it?

Speaker 4 (02:01:41):
What it's like? It's a debutante ball so.

Speaker 2 (02:01:44):
Looks like but it's something that the hoity toys do, right,
It's it's not for everybody, it's just for the It's
just for the folk, right yea, oh this makes so
much sense. Why, Yeah, this makes so much sense that
this plays like a bad doubter happy episode. But at

(02:02:05):
one point, you know, in every BBC costume drama, whether
it's Pride and Prejudice or any of the ones we met,
you know, Wuthering Heights, fucking Lady Chatterley's lover Jeremy Irons
in Bride'shead revisited those kind of things. In every single
one of those things, if it's set between you know,

(02:02:25):
eighteen hundred and nineteen thirty five, if it's set in
any that one hundred and thirty year time period, there
will be an overhead shot of a ball where every
single person knows exactly how to dance. Yes, and they'll
do a lovely dance, and the TV series or the

(02:02:45):
mini series or the movie or whatever it is will
stop for a minute, because here comes the gowns and
suits dancing sequence. It's in every single costume drama from
here to Christmas.

Speaker 4 (02:02:58):
It just is tell you, of course, is that these
men learn this dancing style by getting beaten. And it's
sexually been a less than an eton for yeah, for
five years, and that's why they and they come out
of it learning how to dance.

Speaker 2 (02:03:13):
Yes, Oxbridge and Oxbridge they were they were buggered senseless
with I recently watched Oxford Blues by the way, with
Rob Low going to Oxford in England and like cons
his way into the college because he wants to sleep
with Royalty. It's ridiculous. I want to go from America

(02:03:34):
to England to fuck a princess. Yeah, Rob, because that's
how that works. That's literally the plot of that movie. Anyway,
Shadow of Fear, Oh this makes so much sense. I
oh okay, Shadow of Fear has a sequence where they

(02:03:54):
try and do but the dancing Matt was so sloppy.
It was a mess. It was a mess. Was it
was so ambitious for a movie?

Speaker 4 (02:04:08):
It yeah, it was.

Speaker 2 (02:04:13):
It was the one bit where they flew so close
to the sun they were, but I.

Speaker 4 (02:04:19):
Completely they aren't crossed my mind that it was. It
was Hallowell with his like love for like BBC period pieces, and.

Speaker 2 (02:04:26):
You know, yeah, wait did down Nabby stop before this?
When did Down Nabby stop? Oh?

Speaker 4 (02:04:35):
Good question?

Speaker 5 (02:04:36):
That might put a ring.

Speaker 2 (02:04:37):
Well no, because just because he likes town to Nabby,
he probably also likes sense and sensibility, pride and prejudice
all these others.

Speaker 4 (02:04:43):
Right right exactly? It was twenty ten, Yeah, says twenty
ten for Downton Abbey. But I mean he's queuing up
like a you know, Alistair Cook's like masterpiece Deer, like oh,
ten part series of Nicholas Nickelby or whatever. You just
eating that.

Speaker 2 (02:04:56):
Stuff up, Nicholas nick He's just sat there and be like, oh,
I love the drama between the halves and the half nots,
and so now you're like, it's not now, It's been forever.

Speaker 4 (02:05:16):
Thus, anyway, he took Spokane, Washington and turned it into like, yeah,
like eighteen are we saying.

Speaker 5 (02:05:25):
That British costume drama?

Speaker 2 (02:05:30):
Wait? Wait in this, in this, in this world that
we're this spade of matrix that we're living in. He
has contrived that the movie that is the blueprint for
his grand design, only so so atrociously edited. No one

(02:05:53):
realized until now twenty years later, the twentieth out of
us seeing this movie, we're the only two fuckers who
have never watched.

Speaker 4 (02:06:05):
It has four critic reviews on IMDb, Like like even
Ebert didn't touch it. It wasn't scream.

Speaker 5 (02:06:14):
Right, wasn't it?

Speaker 4 (02:06:19):
Which why doesn't it have mm Walsh all the people
to not have in this movie, Like wouldn't he have
been the sheriff like instead of like the melty jump.

Speaker 5 (02:06:28):
But he's in the Music of Chance with Spader.

Speaker 4 (02:06:30):
Right, yeah, but this is like he would have been
the perfect like police chief.

Speaker 2 (02:06:34):
Even probably loved the Music of Chance. He was probably
all over that ship. But no, so there's this weird
so British costume drama. Oh this makes so much sense, Matt.
Oh my goodness, doesn't this make so much sense?

Speaker 5 (02:06:53):
It does?

Speaker 4 (02:06:54):
It makes it so neither Matt Holloway is so into
British costume drama that he had to put in the
in the movie or Spader made him put it in
the movie as part of his pets, or maybe.

Speaker 2 (02:07:06):
Because, but as part of the evolution of this never
ending story that Spader has forced us to exist in.

Speaker 4 (02:07:14):
Right, exactly, that's all, you know, Like I wonder, I mean,
I have to go back and watch Iron Man now
and see where the you know, the British costume drama
influences in there, right, I mean get it?

Speaker 2 (02:07:26):
Like, well, isn't there that sequence where they go to
a like Hoya Toity club and they dance, doesn't Downy
Junior and Pepa? Don't they have like a big elegant
donce at something?

Speaker 4 (02:07:40):
That's right? I didn't even think of that.

Speaker 3 (02:07:44):
Oh, maybe it's part two.

Speaker 4 (02:07:45):
Maybe no, I think it was part one. It was
like and then what happens is is that something prevents
him from going back to her, right, like something happens
with with with one of the with Opadiyah Stain or
whoever which great name for ad in a movie, you know, but.

Speaker 2 (02:08:02):
Much better than Harrison French. I mean if you stood
there and they're like, well we got two scripts for you, Matt,
you go ober dah Stain, You're like, oh, overdose Stain.

Speaker 5 (02:08:15):
Harrison French, You're.

Speaker 2 (02:08:16):
Like, stayin all the way, you'll have to shave your head.
I don't care. At least I won't be a twat.

Speaker 4 (02:08:26):
Can you imagine Jeff Jeff Bridges in as as the
big character in this movie, like as was a.

Speaker 2 (02:08:32):
Young Jeff Bridges like time or you mean an old.

Speaker 3 (02:08:36):
Two thousand and four Jeff bridges in in in this movie.

Speaker 2 (02:08:40):
Like so it's yeah, it's post Lebowski. It's post Lebowski Bridges.

Speaker 3 (02:08:47):
Yeah, I guess it wouldn't fit with the British period piece.

Speaker 2 (02:08:50):
But he wouldn't be able to be with the younger sister,
that's right.

Speaker 4 (02:08:54):
No, I mean that scene where she grabs, when Lacy
Chibber grabs his butt, like it's like like Spader must
have looked at that and be like, that's not how
you do it.

Speaker 2 (02:09:03):
No, Shader's hand inside her like when it does the
close ups, he's he's like, Lacy, let me put your
shirt on, Lacey, go behind this cloth d robe and
then let me put your shirt.

Speaker 5 (02:09:23):
Because that's how Spader is. Bless him.

Speaker 2 (02:09:25):
So, yeah, this is like the Room only genuinely bad
this film, but apparently it is also the blueprint for
the entire way that we now all live inside a
Spader matrix. Yeah, that is true. He is the puppet
master behind all things. Imagine like the upside down in

(02:09:45):
Stranger Things, but with pods in it, strung together with
his chisolm, his his man milk, his body, his.

Speaker 5 (02:09:55):
Ball batter.

Speaker 2 (02:09:58):
He is. That's that's what we're looking at right now,
and that's where we're living, and that's what we have
to accept, and that's a beautiful thing. Yeah. So I
think we've covered just about everything in Shadow of Fear
and and just about everything that's going on in.

Speaker 5 (02:10:11):
The world everywhere.

Speaker 2 (02:10:14):
But we what we haven't done, Matt, is we haven't
put something into the Sleezatorium and we haven't answered listeners questions.

Speaker 5 (02:10:23):
So what should we do first?

Speaker 3 (02:10:25):
Either way, either one's good for me, so whichever you think.

Speaker 2 (02:10:29):
Oh, we also didn't mention second film for Spader and
Robin Tunney. We've been in two films together. Super Nova
and this film. The only reason I'm saying that is
I assume that what he has in the well, no,
what he has, I'll tell you what he has in
the Sleezeatorium. It's Lacey's shirt.

Speaker 5 (02:10:49):
That's what was in the see.

Speaker 4 (02:10:52):
I was thinking it was going to be so that
David Selby's character, the guy that that we be moist yah.
I was thinking his daughter would be the setorium.

Speaker 5 (02:11:04):
Preserved in fat or something.

Speaker 3 (02:11:07):
She just sits there, She's just there, She's just.

Speaker 4 (02:11:12):
And she just takes out the.

Speaker 2 (02:11:15):
Everyone on the podcast will have just heard me say
preserved in fat, and I want them to know that
the image I had was that there would be an
enormous magician's tank in the middle of the Sleezatorium filled

(02:11:35):
with fat, and the daughter. Selby's daughter was up against
the edge of the tank like face and trapped and
therefore preserved by the fat. When I said preserved fat,

(02:12:00):
that was the image. Isn't that glorious about that? Our
brains do that. That's wonderful. Yeah, I think I think
the daughter. Oh and right next to the magician's tag
full of fat with Selby's daughter like that, there is

(02:12:22):
a small Mason jar On which is written Selby's Tears,
and he's just he collected David Selby's snart and tears
from the scene where he's crying about the fact that
Spader is about to penetrate his barely legal daughter. Also

(02:12:44):
does he do that with every I mean, he does
that with all the daughters.

Speaker 3 (02:12:49):
Well, so, yeah, because I guess the next.

Speaker 2 (02:12:51):
Generation of Spokane, Washington is going to be all Spader babies, right,
That's a really diminishing gene pool after two generations.

Speaker 4 (02:13:02):
Spaders.

Speaker 2 (02:13:04):
Wait, is the plan ultimately a shadow of fear if
he had lived, if his character had lived, to populate
the entirety of Spokane, Washington in just two generations time
with Spader Spader children.

Speaker 3 (02:13:17):
Yeah, I think I think it was. It was it
was going to be all Spader kids.

Speaker 4 (02:13:22):
I mean the sequel that we never got right because
he kills they kill off Spader at the end was
him him, you know, impregnating Robin Tunney, right, and and Matthew,
you know, Harrison French having to raise their you know,
the Spader baby.

Speaker 2 (02:13:37):
And then what you do, like Yellowstone went back to
the past and you know, a couple of different times,
what you could do is you could do a spin
off that's like, what would it be sixty years in
the future, and it is Spader. You know, Spader has
had sex with all women in the town. All the
men have then you know, died off or whatever, and he,

(02:14:00):
you know, died off. But then all the children Spader
and those women's children, then all those women die off.
So then all of Spader's children, who are now you know,
all Spader children, have to mate with each other. And
then so by a third generation you have Spader, Spader,
Spader to the power of four or whatever.

Speaker 5 (02:14:22):
And you would do a show that was fifty years.

Speaker 2 (02:14:24):
From now in which the entire world was all Spader
of Spader, of Spader offspring. And how long would it
take for the offspring? How many generations of you know,
inbread Spader children would it take See Matt No other

(02:14:44):
podcast asks these questions. How many generations of inbred Spader
children would it take for them to just simply give
birth to a dollop of fluids like just a sack,
just a flesh.

Speaker 3 (02:15:00):
Right with with a trill with the trill be hat
or something on.

Speaker 4 (02:15:06):
All Right, Well, I had another idea too, that what
if Robin Tunney was Spader's and he got them because
because doesn't he also sleep with wives too, because he.

Speaker 2 (02:15:17):
Was Oh, he's definitely slept with all the older ladies too.
Spider doesn't discriminate.

Speaker 3 (02:15:22):
Right, So Coyote, Coyote, Actually those aren't his kids. There's
Spader's kids.

Speaker 4 (02:15:25):
That would be. So he was going to go sleep
with his daughter in the in the hotel room, or
maybe he was. He was never going to sleep with
his daughter, and Harrison French went in there thinking he
was going to stop her from sleeping with his daughter,
when in fact Spader had no intention of doing that ever, right,
He was just like, come on in, you know you're yeah, yeah,
you didn't interrupt anything because she's my daughter.

Speaker 2 (02:15:50):
Oh man, has this show gone to some dark and
wonderful places? All right?

Speaker 5 (02:15:55):
So that's it for the Sleaveatorium section.

Speaker 2 (02:15:57):
Now we are going over to the bit that every
one looks forward to in a sleezy Spader springtime. That's right,
it's the Andy Luhnn email. Andy Luhnn, Andy Luhn always
writing lots of fun. He's a man who is coming
to the US toesday with me. That is true.

Speaker 5 (02:16:17):
At the end of July. Andy Lunn comes Tuesday.

Speaker 2 (02:16:20):
That's true, Andy Lunn is coming to stay anyway, He
wrote us an email, Matt, here we go. Hello, so
pleased that you're embarking on Shadow of Fear, a film which,
according to Letterbox, I rather enjoyed than forgot instantly. All
the sticks in my mind now is him looking longingly
at Robin Tunney, although that might actually have been me.
A couple of questions for you, as per your request. Oh,

(02:16:43):
A couple of questions for you, as per your request.
The only issue here is that after sending questions through
for each Sleazy Spader springtime season, it becomes quite difficult
both to think up new ones and to make sure
to avoid any duplication. But here goes for which of
Spade as many roles would you have most liked to
see him win an Academy Award? And in addition to this,

(02:17:07):
what might be the content of his acceptance speech? So
which of Spader's film performances do you think deserves an
Academy Award?

Speaker 4 (02:17:21):
Wow?

Speaker 3 (02:17:23):
Boy, I mean I always love Crash. I always love
him in Crash.

Speaker 4 (02:17:31):
I mean best supporting actor for Wolf getting his shoe
Peede on that you know because that that would lend
itself to a great like a great speech. Right. It's like,
you know, I might be the only one here who's
ever won an award for having my shoe peede on.
But I you know, you really have to sell it.
When when you know you have to sell that, you're

(02:17:52):
being urinated on it. It's not always easy to sell that.
I feel like I'm probably the best at selling that, you.

Speaker 2 (02:17:59):
Know, Thankfully, due to my upbringing and my sexual proclivities,
I'm a perfect man to show you how to have
your shoe peedo in a realistic way.

Speaker 4 (02:18:10):
I means he's Pretty in Pink, where he's just you know,
hair feathered, like, yeah, you know, fully full adult who's
playing a high schooler with kids.

Speaker 2 (02:18:24):
See, I think weirdly enough that if I was going
to pick something for him to win, I'm actually looking here.
Like he does a ton of films before Pretty in Pink. Yeah,
Pretty in Pink is after Pretty in Pink. He basically
plays adults. Yeah, yeah, he's pretty. He's twenty six by

(02:18:49):
the time he's in Pretty in Pink playing a high
school kid, but again, also playing a high school kid
with power and responsibility would give him an Academy Award
for his role in mannekin H.

Speaker 4 (02:19:06):
I was thinking about that one.

Speaker 2 (02:19:08):
I would I would, I would do it merely because
at that age and with the sort of roles that
he'd already done where he was sort of basically, you know,
the young sort of slightly well to do but also
enough rough around the edges kind of teen in a

(02:19:29):
few kind of movies, starting with a Killer in the
Family and then Tough Turf for new Kids Starcrost. Once
you've done a few roles of that, you don't expect
the next thing they do is a Monty pythonesque, slick head,
down round glasses wearing slimy carry on seventy sex comedy

(02:19:55):
type film character like he plays in man I mean,
he is so oily but not but again, but not
in a sleezy way like It's Red. It's the one
time where he channels all his sleeze oil into sort
of I don't know, like nerdy boss oil.

Speaker 4 (02:20:16):
Right right, Yeah, No, that's I mean, that's another great one,
I think, I mean, and Mannequin's one of those ones,
like I watch it.

Speaker 3 (02:20:25):
I'm just like, you know, you know, I used to
like the song for it.

Speaker 4 (02:20:29):
Now I can't handle the you know, the song, you know,
like the idea of it sounds great, and then it's like, well,
I don't know if I you know, I watch it now,
it's like I'm not sure, you know, the actual mannequin
is at a store here in Philadelphi, because I guess,
you know, the film was the movie was shot here
in Philadelphia.

Speaker 2 (02:20:44):
That what's now amazing you go visit the actual mannequin
because I.

Speaker 4 (02:20:48):
Think it got moved to another place, and so I
don't even you know, but I think it's like this
this hipster clothing place called seuth Fellini, and so I
don't think I'd be.

Speaker 2 (02:20:57):
Caught dead in there. But that's that's who has They're like, oh,
irony of ironies, we have the mannequin mannequin exactly, it's
like double irony because it's double mannequin. But you's like,
you think about it. After Mannikin, you have Baby Boom,
less than zero Wall Street, Jack's back, sex lines and videotapes,

(02:21:18):
Rachel Paper's bad Influence, White Palace, all which in that
row he is going right back to playing floppy head
sex pot Loosh Spader right exactly. I haven't seen true color.
So I can't comment Storyville again. Crooked lush, Spader politician guy,

(02:21:43):
music of Chance music. I tell you what, if he
was going to get a second Academy Award for me,
it would be for the music of Chance.

Speaker 4 (02:21:50):
So I haven't seen that one yet.

Speaker 2 (02:21:51):
I'll have to see that one, because again he's he's
doing something a little different in that one. He's dyed
his hair black, he's got a mustache. He's doing the
full Daniel day Lewis. You know what I mean. He's
dyed his hair and grown a mustache and people are like,
oh my god, the change is undeniableh.

Speaker 4 (02:22:10):
That's that's the emmental wash one.

Speaker 2 (02:22:11):
That's why because Ebert will champion it and then Spader
will get the awards. So that's okay. So that's I
think we've answered that. Do you have We've we've answered
that half.

Speaker 4 (02:22:21):
And then he says he reviewed it. Yeah, Ebert reviewed it.
It's one of thirteen critic reviews. Let me see if
he gave it a good good marks.

Speaker 2 (02:22:28):
But so what might be Yeah, so what might be
the content of his acceptance speech?

Speaker 5 (02:22:34):
Well, I just.

Speaker 2 (02:22:37):
I don't know, because he I don't imagine Spader would
want to thank himself. I don't.

Speaker 5 (02:22:44):
He doesn't strike me as.

Speaker 2 (02:22:45):
Someone who it would be more than he would thank
other people in a way that would be thanking himself.

Speaker 5 (02:22:52):
Does that make it?

Speaker 2 (02:22:54):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (02:22:54):
Yeah, no exactly, Like, think thank you Emment Walsh for
being such a great character actor that I could, you know,
really shine.

Speaker 2 (02:23:02):
Next to yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:23:05):
Shine.

Speaker 2 (02:23:06):
But I think I mean, now that we know that
he's the puppet overlord, he would probably use his acceptance
speech to slip in some bizarre non sequito codes. So
he would I would imagine his acceptance speech would be
very jarring. It would go from one extreme and tangent

(02:23:27):
to and so he would start with a thank you,
normal thank you, and then suddenly flip it and start
talking about like, you know, do you know that the
the Burmese rattle python can suck its own penis or something?

Speaker 5 (02:23:43):
And he'd be like, what is he talking about?

Speaker 2 (02:23:47):
And then it would weirdly then it would skew off
again to be some you know when I was working
with Robert Mitcham like then it would be like the
name dropping portion of the thing. Then he would go
very very quiet and say you know, uh, he would
he would read a Dostoyevsky passage or something that was

(02:24:10):
deeply moving to him, and he would then say that
was for his wife. Then he would probably go back
to the Burbise python sucking its own deck and then yeah, I.

Speaker 5 (02:24:20):
Don't know, it would it would be weird. It would
be a weird experience.

Speaker 4 (02:24:23):
I feel like the Emmy, the two Emmy acceptance speeches
must be available on YouTube or something like that to
get a sense of like how, you know, when he
when he won a major award, like what what he did?
I feel, yeah, because it's gonna be I mean, there's
one of one of his pictures I think, I don't
I think this old IMDb photo was of him holding

(02:24:46):
up the the Emmy a red carpet or like, you know,
maybe after the event.

Speaker 3 (02:24:52):
But yeah, now it just shows him in his tucks.

Speaker 4 (02:24:55):
But I think one of the pictures that they used
to have of him on IMVV was him holding the
the Emmy.

Speaker 2 (02:25:03):
I will have to I will have to google that
after we're done. Yeah, I mean, I think in the Spader,
in the reality of Spader, I believe he's a very
nervous and OCD guy. So I imagine giving an award
acceptance speech would probably drive him crazy, and he would
probably stammer through a few erstwhile thank yous, and then

(02:25:24):
move on. In terms of the Spader that I like
to believe exists in my head, I think it would
be erratic rambling.

Speaker 5 (02:25:33):
It would drop names.

Speaker 2 (02:25:34):
Of both obscure authors and celebrities he's worked with, and
it would culminate in something. Absolutely he would he would
do a Dostoevsky quote, say it was for his wife,
and then explain in long rambling detail why the Dostojevsky
quote was all about vaginas.

Speaker 5 (02:25:53):
And you would think to.

Speaker 2 (02:25:53):
Yourself, wait, did he say that Dostoyevsky quote to his
wife because he loves her and loves her vagina? Or
is he saying that dost asking quote to his wife
and then saying I love all vaginas?

Speaker 5 (02:26:09):
Right, So I think he would do that.

Speaker 2 (02:26:12):
And then lastly, Andy lenn asks, when Spader is considering
purchasing some kind of hand lotion, what particular qualities does
he look out for?

Speaker 4 (02:26:22):
Viscosity obviously is gonna say, I think that's a lack
of tackiness, right. He doesn't want it to be tacky.

Speaker 2 (02:26:30):
No, he buys them from anthropology in those little ceramic holders,
Like it's just a cheap pouch with a horrible pump
on top of like an expensive ceramic thing, and it's
not even as good as like the normal Mayer's pump
things or whatever that you just buy or Dove soap

(02:26:52):
soap his hand to Spenser or whatever. But he wants
the ceramic and he wants I don't know, an engraving
of like two engorged pigs rutting each other on the
side of it. All right, So that's that. Kim My
wife has a question for us, Hey, kim uh. She said,
what if any name would James Bader choose if he

(02:27:13):
wanted to and was able to change his name?

Speaker 4 (02:27:17):
Mmm? Wow, because you feel like he might go outland
something like a like a Bearington or something like that. Right.

Speaker 2 (02:27:27):
I thought the first name that came into my head
was lush Velvet.

Speaker 5 (02:27:33):
I wanted to be lush ve velvet.

Speaker 4 (02:27:39):
That's probably perfect.

Speaker 2 (02:27:41):
But you're right, you have to get some of that
Massachusetts blue blood kind of thing in there. So you
have to get a Barrington or a what you know,
Wutherington Peeve or something like that.

Speaker 4 (02:27:54):
Lucius loose lush Barrington velvet.

Speaker 2 (02:27:59):
Yes, oh, Luish Barrington Velvet. That's fantastic. So, yes, that's
the name he would pick, she said, who would change
it but still discuss So I hope we've amped in her.
But yes, Luis Barrington Velvet. I think it incorporates just

(02:28:22):
about everything. Osvaldo Nato just sent us an email. That's
so weird. That's so weird. I'm selling the Wingshouser movie Mutant.
I have two copies, so I'm selling one copy on
DVD on eBay and someone just wrote to me, I'm
looking for full screen? Do you know if this is

(02:28:43):
You're like, why would you want full screen?

Speaker 4 (02:28:45):
Like?

Speaker 5 (02:28:45):
Full screen means the square bot.

Speaker 2 (02:28:47):
Right, it's four x three.

Speaker 5 (02:28:49):
Why wouldn't you want wide screen?

Speaker 4 (02:28:51):
Because they can only watch it on a tube TV?

Speaker 3 (02:28:53):
Is that at all?

Speaker 5 (02:28:54):
But two TV's show why screen?

Speaker 3 (02:28:56):
They just have the black bars they want to fit
their nineteen inch two TVs?

Speaker 2 (02:29:02):
Is that like a hipster question? I'm looking for I
only collect full screen? Oh oh, you only collect full screen?
Have you heard of this thing called vhs? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (02:29:14):
No, it's too retro. I like to be just ever
so slightly retro.

Speaker 2 (02:29:18):
So I'm gonna go DVDs only, but just to be
a fucking annoying cunt DVD full screens scan. Yeah, I
only watch things at a four x three ratio. It
was the original ratio. I only watched black and white

(02:29:44):
Brazilian documentaries about people dying from nineteen fourteen. Anyway, Osvaldo
Nito or Oswaldo Oswaldo Asaldo. I don't know how to pronounce.
I'm so sorry, Oswaldo. I'm ordering your name. I'm so sorry,
I apologize. Oswaldo. Netto writes, Hi, guys, hello from a

(02:30:06):
fan of batshit crazy and wonderful genre films in Brazil
to two in the US. Look at this, Matt. We
are crossing international boundaries with our fandom. For Spader, there
is a very cool and comfy crime film starring James
Spader that I think is very underrated and forgotten nowadays.

(02:30:30):
It's called The Stick Up. It's written and directed by
Rowdy Harrington. That's right, the same director from Jack's Back,
also with Spader, and the great American classic called Roadhouse.
All the best, Oswaldo. He then says for Matt, he writes,
to you as Roman, I've been a reader from DTV
connoisseur for many years. Always good to know when there

(02:30:54):
is another new article to read. Keep up the great work, bro.

Speaker 4 (02:30:58):
Thank you. Yeah, I know Oswaldo's can do mutuals on Instagram,
so yeah, he's always get great.

Speaker 3 (02:31:03):
Yeah. So so thank you very much, Oswald.

Speaker 4 (02:31:06):
Good to hear it. I'm going to try my best
to keep doing those those weekly posts. I think I
missed one when I was away visiting my family earlier
this year. So yeah, try my best to get get
that one a week in there at least.

Speaker 2 (02:31:17):
But world's collide for oswell though, John from the aftermovie
Diamond Map from Direct to Video Connas So we've reviewed
The stick Up and Jack's Back here on the show.
I have to say that, actually, I think both of
those were, although they had their issues, some of my favorite,
more of my favorite End of the Spader films that
we've watched than some of the others I did enjoy.

Speaker 5 (02:31:39):
I remember enjoying the stick Up.

Speaker 2 (02:31:41):
And Jack's Back. Jack's Back has that nice, like glossy
late eighties nineties kind of thriller look to it that
I really like. Just where they've got that camera glass
kind of what wings Houser goes for and Art of Dying,
It's got that mind. Look look and feel to it,
you know, with the thick hues and the there's a

(02:32:01):
lot of night shooting in Jack's back I remember, and
the stick up fantastic, So yeah, as well, we've already
covered those on the shows. So, as I said on
Aftermovie Diner dot com, if you go to the podcasts
drop down, you will see that underneath that drop down
there is one that just says Sleezy Spader Springtime, and
that will get you to all of the episodes we've

(02:32:23):
done so far. As I say, you are joining us
as we wrap up the last four or five episodes
of Sleazy Spader ever. So yeah, we've done almost his
entire career, as we discussed earlier, So hopefully you'll go
back and take a listen to some of those other episodes.
But thanks so much for writing in. I think we
have one more question. That's someone else left one. Oh

(02:32:45):
did you want to say anything else?

Speaker 5 (02:32:47):
Sorry, Mackhea, No.

Speaker 3 (02:32:48):
I just like those old episodes.

Speaker 4 (02:32:49):
Actually, I kind of like the ones where the movie
were bad. Like I think one of my favorites is
the Keys to Tolsa episode.

Speaker 2 (02:32:57):
Right so badly.

Speaker 4 (02:32:59):
Yeah, I think I just enjoyed listening to you both
hate it.

Speaker 5 (02:33:02):
Yes, of course.

Speaker 2 (02:33:05):
So Kyle Polling, from previously of Bloodbirths and Boomsticks and
now of Genre Corps the podcast Genre Call the Podcast
asks this quote. This is quite a complicated question because
you have to understand Kyle Polling's brain for this one.
Rank these dudes on a slee scale from one to
one hundred, fifty being Spader and one hundred being Joe Spanell. Now,

(02:33:31):
Joe Spanell is definitely greasy and weird. He's definitely greasy
and weird. He's not sleezy though he's too weird to
be sleezy. He's too And I don't think that even
if there's a scale from one to one hundred, and
even if we all agree to disagree, but that that
Spanell is one hundred, Spader is ninety nine point five,

(02:33:52):
like Spader is not fifty. There aren't forty nine people
sleazier than Spader. Between Spader and Joe Spanell. I mean,
all you would have to say is James Spader is
driving your daughter to school, and you'd immediately be like, no, no,
he's not, and never will get him as far away
from my child is humanly possible, especially and I'm not

(02:34:12):
insinuating that he's a pedophile. I'm saying if she was
like seventeen, like right on the cusp, and you know,
blah blah blah blah blah, I would There's no way
on earth I would. Let's twenty twenty two, No way
I would ever let' spade anywhere near her because his
eyes say death. And what I what I said from
the from the shower curtain at the beginning of the movie,

(02:34:34):
here's a hollow shell filled with a lustful fiend.

Speaker 5 (02:34:40):
But here we go.

Speaker 2 (02:34:40):
So let's assume, all right, Spado is in the nineties
jo just when I was one hundred. I'll stick with that.
But here we go. George Eastman, Where would you put
George Eastman on this scale?

Speaker 4 (02:34:51):
Wow, that's a good question. George Eastman. I have to
kind of pull him up on IMTV could get a
good look at him here.

Speaker 2 (02:35:00):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (02:35:00):
So see he's equating sleeves with sweat. I think that's
what I was doing.

Speaker 4 (02:35:08):
I mean, I mean, I'm just thinking of him in
war Warriors of the Wastelane. Is that the Wars of
the Wastelane where he his gang of guys he buggers.
I guess it's the term I want to use for
that the hero, and then he gets it in the end,
literally in the end, at the end of the film.
I don't know that that's sleazy, Like that's like like

(02:35:31):
that's like what like there's something different about that east
of it. He's he's not like you said, he's great.
He's sweaty and moist.

Speaker 2 (02:35:41):
Yeah, so I mean I would I mean, I don't know.
Eastman deserves a good forty spot something like that.

Speaker 5 (02:35:48):
He's sort of for.

Speaker 4 (02:35:53):
Yeah, I feel like if I had a chance to
hang out with him in Italy where he was you know, Luigi,
right or whatever.

Speaker 3 (02:36:00):
I think if I hung out with him there, I would.

Speaker 4 (02:36:02):
Probably see more sleeves. Like I bet he hits on
women in Italy, like they're just walking on the streets
stuff like that, so that that that might move him
up past space.

Speaker 2 (02:36:12):
We're just reading. We're never gonna have time to go
through all of these. I'm just reading the list that
he gave us. Okay, but and we'll do a quick
fire around. But I'm just gonna read.

Speaker 5 (02:36:21):
The list first.

Speaker 2 (02:36:22):
George Eastman, George Went, I mean, George Went isn't sleezy
at all. He's kind the Uncle roly Poly, George Went
and Tonio Banderas, don't underestimate South of the Border sleeves
never and and Banderas is undoubtedly sleezy.

Speaker 5 (02:36:41):
Cameron Mitchell, Joe Don.

Speaker 3 (02:36:43):
Baker, Oh, Joe Don Baker, Kyle.

Speaker 5 (02:36:48):
Where does Kyle come up with this list?

Speaker 2 (02:36:50):
Joe Don Baker, Brian Dennehey, Tom Bosley from Happy.

Speaker 4 (02:36:54):
Right, Brian Dennehy's slot, Tom Bosley, Okay, so Bosley, maybe
those later Happy Day seasons where he was like they
weren't even pretending that.

Speaker 3 (02:37:04):
They that the show took place in the fifties where.

Speaker 4 (02:37:07):
He was like wearing like eighties like Grandpa glasses or sunglasses.
That like, I think there were transitions. Yeah, like that
period of time was a little bit more sleezy than.

Speaker 2 (02:37:18):
Like, but it's all he lists a whole bunch of
flabby character actors literally like George Went, Cameron Mitchell, Joe
Don Baker, Brian Denny, Tom Bosley, Eric Roberts Okay, leading
man looks, but obviously wings Hauser. Wings Hauser is sleezy.
He's he's like seventy five percent sleezy. But what you

(02:37:41):
have to do with wings Hauser is you have to
undercut the sleeves with some true perversity, right, some true
perversity because the love scenes that Hauser embarks on it
they're not comfortable to watch, you know, James Fader love scene,
It's uncomfortable, but in a comfortable way. When Towser is

(02:38:04):
just flat out depraved, he goes on car mclachland, who
he calls Carma Cloughland. The anti sleeze is Calma Cloughland.
The ant Does no one find Calma Cloughland at all erotic?

Speaker 4 (02:38:19):
I think if you watch his character and sex in
the City, I think he's like very much not sleezy.
But I don't know. I guess Portland yet, right, he
plays the mayor of Portland.

Speaker 2 (02:38:30):
Yat right? Yeah, I mean Agent Cooper. Yeah. Is Agent
Cooper in any way at all sleezy. He's not, But
he's so not sleezy that he's almost coming back around.

Speaker 4 (02:38:44):
Too sleezy, like the circuit.

Speaker 2 (02:38:46):
Yeah, if Kyle had given him just a slight wink
in the eye, which he never did. He played it
very straight. But if he gave it just a slight
wink in the eye, it would have nudged it over
into sleezy. Again. Yeah, that's what so I don't think
he's the and well maybe that makes him the anti Sleeze.
If he's so anti sleeze, he's almost sleezy. Yeah, that's

(02:39:10):
that's that's the anti Sleeze. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:39:13):
I just think of the episode where he eats the pie, right,
he's eating the pie the diner. Whenever he's eating the
pie the diner in Twin Peaks, there's nothing sleazy about
how he eats the pie, and I feel like that's
a eating pie is something like like if you watch
Spader eating pie in a.

Speaker 5 (02:39:30):
Moment, I mean it's depraved.

Speaker 2 (02:39:33):
Yes, yes, well he would I mean also he would
love to order the peach cobblin like that would be
that would be Spader's favorite pie is a peach cobbler.
Like you can just imagine Alan shaw On, you know,
and Denny Craig going out for dinner or whatever, like, Denny,

(02:39:54):
would you like me to order you the peach cobbler?
Get out here, level fucking liberals with their peach cobblers.
I'm gonna have a gun on toast Mount Chick. I've
been watching a lot of bust to mingle. Anyway, I'm
going to so Georgie's when George went, Antonio Banderaz, Cameron Mitchell,

(02:40:15):
Joe Don't, Baker, Browan, Denny, Tom Bosley, Eric Roberts, wings Houser, Calma.

Speaker 5 (02:40:20):
Cloughton, Ernest pork Knight. How is Ernest bork di sleazy?

Speaker 4 (02:40:28):
I mean he won an oscar for the most unsleazy
role ever in Marty.

Speaker 2 (02:40:33):
Yeah, so Ernest p war Sorry, Ernest pork Ny and
Ernest p war character that Jim Farni.

Speaker 3 (02:40:41):
Was like not sleazy either creepy but poorly from Rocky.

Speaker 2 (02:40:47):
Didn't even name him poorly from Rocky Rocky Dennis and
George C.

Speaker 5 (02:40:54):
Scott.

Speaker 2 (02:40:54):
What is that list, Kyle? That is one of the weirdest.
I mean that's a fantastic list, but I mean I
would The trouble is with that list, Kyle, is that
ninety percent of them get between one to five on
the sleeve scale, and then ten percent of them are
like hovering in the middle. There's there's no there's there's

(02:41:14):
no seventy five eighty ninety percent sleezes there. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:41:19):
For for my way of thinking, no, the only one
I said, I think Eastman, I think in Italy he
might be sleazier in Italy than he is in the
movies he made.

Speaker 2 (02:41:27):
Oh he is most no no Eastman, I would give
a nice I think I gave him a forty five
to fifty percent slee Eastman.

Speaker 4 (02:41:34):
Yeah, I think Luigi Montefiore is real name, Luigi Montifiurre.

Speaker 5 (02:41:40):
Oh he's a sleezy suckt. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:41:42):
He has like the shirt that's like unbuttoned.

Speaker 4 (02:41:44):
Yes, and he just stands on a wall as women
walk by and he whistles at them.

Speaker 5 (02:41:48):
Oh, we have to talk about this very quickly.

Speaker 2 (02:41:51):
In Shadow of Fear, firstly, there was a scene where,
for no reason once whoever, Matthew Davis had his shirt
unbuttoned to a ridiculous level, to a point where where
it came on screen and I went, oh, button that up,

(02:42:15):
like instinctively, like as if it was my mother watching
a soap opera and a slightly too swarthy gentleman came
on the screen. She's like, oh, put it away. You know,
it's like that all button it up when he came
on screen. But then, what was we didn't get into this.
His job is states I don't know what that means. Right,
he keeps going on these lunch dates where he just

(02:42:36):
keeps saying the word of states, the states, the States,
over and over again to nodding extras who they can't
afford to pay. And then he'll get a phone call
and he'll pick up the phone and be like, yes,
the states, and then hang up, and he'll keep saying
the states.

Speaker 5 (02:42:51):
But he has an.

Speaker 2 (02:42:52):
Assistant at the at the phone the phone, which, by
the way, is one desk that looks like it's tucked
out the back of a traveler agents where no one
else works.

Speaker 5 (02:43:02):
It looks like it's a front for something. Is what
this job looks like?

Speaker 2 (02:43:07):
What about the secretary's outfits? Yes? What?

Speaker 5 (02:43:11):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (02:43:14):
There are multiple scenes in this movie where his secretary
a I'm not going to say non attractive, but I'm
going to say a non descript, curly haired mess of
femininity where they have contrived using a push up bra
and certain dress and certain dresses to make like she

(02:43:35):
has fishball teds, like huge round fishball teds on more
than one occasion in the movie, on more than one occasions,
if they were like, oh, we need like to sell
this overseas, we need a little sex appeal, and they
went pop your top off and they went, well, we've

(02:43:57):
got to get the most ridiculous, like empiric She has
Elvira breasts basically right, right, fishbowl breasts, And you're like, well,
why whose idea was that. It's the rest of the movie.

Speaker 5 (02:44:10):
It's not like that.

Speaker 2 (02:44:12):
There's one other scene where uh oh, this is another
weird thing. There's one of the guys who gets caught
having adultery, right, and then Spainer's like, no, no, no,
you have to keep having adultery, like you can't not
have adultery, to the point where he doesn't even want
to be having adultery anymore, right, the point where there's

(02:44:33):
this whole scene in a clothing store where he's having
adultery and telling tapes Spader, I don't want this adultery anymore,
and Spader being like, I don't think he wants to
be having adultery anymore, And then Adultery drags him into
a dressing room and is having adultery with him right
there in the dressing room while his wife is just.

Speaker 3 (02:44:56):
Outside, just shopping in the area.

Speaker 2 (02:44:58):
Yeah no no, but she's right outside, like she goes
to find him and fitting a sorry, yeah, what this
movie needed. If you wanted to put like sex in
this movie to sell it overseas. That's where you have
an intercut between the quaint little conversation that's happening outside

(02:45:19):
between Spader, Robin Tunney and Janey what's her name Janie Sawgrass,
Shirley Branner, Shirley Breandner, who I'm gonna get on the
podcast so I'll be able to ask all the questions.
So it should intercut between the three of them having
this pleasant conversation and then an outrageous like DTV you know,

(02:45:41):
soft pornographic sex scene going on inside the dressing room
with a guy who doesn't want to be having a
sex scene. So she's all like, oh, like wildly slapping
him against walls and waving her arms about she's topless
and the grinding and bouncing get everything else like that.
But he is just he is just dead inside, like

(02:46:05):
he is just miserable. And then it keeps cutting between
quaint chat and then this can you that's where they
missed a trick, Matt, That's where they needed because how
hilarious would that be?

Speaker 3 (02:46:17):
Oh, it would have been perfect. It would have been perfect.
The movie needed that kind.

Speaker 5 (02:46:20):
Of energy, right, and any energy.

Speaker 4 (02:46:25):
It needed energy on a lot of life.

Speaker 2 (02:46:26):
I thought the dance scene was going to carry a
lot of the heavy lifting when it came to energy,
because they got four people who couldn't even twirl without
like bumping into picture. Right, But that whole thing, so
Spain is just like, well, I've got this plan. Everyone

(02:46:47):
has to do their crime over and over and over again.
Well wats micro wow, Well your crimes adultery. So wait,
I'm going to just continually cheat on my wife. Yes,
You've got to continue to the point where I don't
even like it anymore. It doesn't matter. I need you
to keep cheating.

Speaker 4 (02:47:02):
You just keep cheating.

Speaker 5 (02:47:06):
Why at any point?

Speaker 2 (02:47:08):
But wait a minute, sorry, Matt, I can't believe that
this movie is still occupying my brain. At a certain point,
they need someone to throw the set, like the detective
off the scent. Right, we haven't even talked about the
chief of police's melting face, Matt. We've done such a

(02:47:29):
batch job. We've been talking almost five hours and we
haven't even brought up the melting face.

Speaker 4 (02:47:36):
Right.

Speaker 2 (02:47:37):
Oh, I'm so sorry about this. Quickly, then, the chief
of police has a huge melty face and a tiny
little mustache, and he looks like someone skinned John Clees
and pulled him over a giant mushroom. That's what he looks, right,

(02:47:59):
he looks like someone Texas chainsaw massacred faced John Clease.

Speaker 5 (02:48:05):
He's around.

Speaker 2 (02:48:06):
He looks like the blobby guy at the end of
robotcop is at the toxic waistpoort all over him. Only
is a regular human being. But to throw them off
the scent, they go downtown spoke right where they have
some acting students with a little bit of like dirt

(02:48:27):
on their face as homeless people. These people that they
were just five minutes ago hanging out on the gates
and college or whatever the steps of college and now
they you know, someone's gonna put a bit of boot
polish on your faces. Lie in this doorway whill you
would be homeless? They do you remember that they drive

(02:48:48):
down this like bag alley with all these like homeless
art students. I'm like, what's going on here right right?

Speaker 4 (02:48:54):
The local the local university, gun Zaga. I think they
they got to thank you in the credits. Theation went
to Gonzaga and say who wants to earn fifty bucks?

Speaker 2 (02:49:02):
Right? And then they picked this guy out of a
hat and they tell him to go to the you know,
basically they set this homeless person up to be the
patsy for Matthew Davis. And and that's a whole thing

(02:49:24):
that happens in the movie, right, you like, but were
the police detectives going anywhere near the airport or any
of that stuff. No, Like, he goes, oh, you know, oh,
there's the big leak with the fucking that's the best
scene in the movie. Oh my god, I can't believe
we didn't talk about this either, Spader.

Speaker 5 (02:49:43):
I think I messaged you this. What was the phrase?

Speaker 2 (02:49:46):
He says in an ocean of adjectives, and the word
type keeps flopping ashore. So there are a telephone call
in Spader's basically telling him that there's there's a big problem,
like any minute now you're going to be found out.
And the big clue that Aiden Quinn has found almost

(02:50:08):
pristine lying next to her body. So this is why
you gotta believe, right, it is his Hello, my name
is Sticker from the event that he just left, which
we saw this Tuesday night event thing. We don't know
what it is yet, we don't know who's all there,
but he's there, and he's wearing a Hello, my name

(02:50:28):
is Harrison French. And maybe again that's why it's called
Harrison French because there were first time screenwriters. They were like, oh,
if our big clue reveal is his name badge, it
better not be a normal name. It has to be
a name that only he has, because if it says
Alan Smith on it, that could be anybody.

Speaker 5 (02:50:46):
And we're like, no.

Speaker 2 (02:50:47):
But if the movie hero is called Alan Smith and
they find a badge that says, hello, my name is
Alan Smith, we'll go with it. His name doesn't have
to be Harrison French just to make the fucking plot
makes sense. It doesn't make sense anyway, because it was
torrential rain, first of all, torrential rain. So let's say
the sticker gets rained on and falls down into the
mud while he's like moving a body around and dragging

(02:51:10):
a body around and throwing branches over the body and whatever. Right,
you're telling me that the next morning it is lying
pristine and dry within a yard of the body, you know,
within a few feet of the body. No, that thing
is at best sodden and like ground into the dirt,

(02:51:33):
or it's you know, torn up and in different places
around the place.

Speaker 5 (02:51:38):
Right, And he tries to say.

Speaker 2 (02:51:42):
Well, the reason why my sticker sticker is is where
it is is because I was mad and I threw
it out the window. And then Aiden Quinn tries to
throw the sticker, tries to pretend to throw the sticker.

Speaker 5 (02:51:58):
Out the window.

Speaker 2 (02:52:00):
And I have never enjoyed something so much as bad
as this movie was. That's the kind of scene that
I would put in a movie, because you would never
any other movie on the planet. You would never see
a movie where a the movie hinged on a fucking hello,
my name is sticker. But secondly that you would believe
not only that the sticker was still intact, but that

(02:52:22):
it was sticky enough that it could still stick to
his finger and not be able to be thrown out
the window. It's completely mad, but one of the best
scenes in any film because essentially what that scene in
that film is doing is it is questioning normal movie

(02:52:42):
logic where you kind of go, oh yeah, threw it
out the window, and you know, there it is. So
it's joyous, it's wonderful. That bit was an absolute delight.
So we missed out all of that stuff in the
police station, and I apologize if we've shortchanged people, but
I will at the spit into the middle of the show,
I guess, or maybe not. Maybe I'll just leave it

(02:53:03):
at the end. All right, man, I think that's it.
I think we've come in absolutely everything. This movie was
a delight.

Speaker 3 (02:53:15):
It was it was well, yeah, it was a delight
to discuss. It's horrible to watch it.

Speaker 5 (02:53:23):
At one.

Speaker 2 (02:53:23):
At one point, Aidan Quinn goes, you know, I'm really
gonna get him. I'm going to get him. I'm going
to fix this guy whatever, hangs up the phone, leads
back in the chair and just goes what is going on?
And I'm like, that was like fifteen minutes in, and
I'm like, I'm with you, Aiden, no idea what we
don't know, aid We've got no idea, mate, what is

(02:53:45):
going on exactly? But Spader is just loosely lying around
saying ship like an ocean of addictives, and the word
tight keeps flopping ashore. I said it was like wide shut,
made by the Hallmark Channel and written by children, which

(02:54:06):
is kind of what it was. But yes, there we go.
That is the longest that is. First of all, that's
the only podcast episode about Shape of Fear that I'm
sure exists on the planet, and it is by far,
even if one other one exists. Look at me. Now,
I'll google it and they'll be the Shape of Fear
podcast and it'll be a podcast by Matt Holloway and

(02:54:28):
Art Markham discussing the shadowy blueprint of Total Spade and Domination,
and we'll be like, now I know this shit is real.
It's a true crime podcast. I think I'm the only one,
but everyone else has seen Shadow of Fear. We're going
to find out that's what it is. Anyway, Matt, tell

(02:54:49):
everyone your final thoughts on the film and where they
can find you and what you're going to be doing
and all that good shit.

Speaker 3 (02:54:56):
Yeah, I think, I mean, this movie is.

Speaker 4 (02:55:00):
Unless you're doing something like this where you're trying to
watch all the Spader films, it's probably better to avoid it.
But if you're trying to see all of Spader's films,
this is on two B so you can at least
get it for free, so not some of the other
don't want you get to drag up or anything like that.
So there's there's that going for it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:55:17):
In terms of the.

Speaker 4 (02:55:18):
Site, DTV kindosort dot blogspot dot com, that's where you
can find everything. My most recent novel, Don's House in
the Mountains, the link to that is there. Bainbridge short
action novel, that novella that I wrote that that's also
available there, and of course the podcast links to the
podcast are there as well. So everything's there. Everything's on
DTV kind of sort, blogspot, dot com.

Speaker 2 (02:55:40):
Fantastic And as always, you can rate and review us
wherever podcast are found. Please go do it, but no
go rate if you if you just made it to
the end of this episode, go rate reviewers. Just go
rate reviewers. Everyone, go rate reviewers.

Speaker 5 (02:55:56):
I'm Matt.

Speaker 2 (02:55:57):
I was talking earlier today in my face and my
Instagram post about this. But with the over corporatization and
every fucking celebrity under the sun having a podcast, and
most of our friends no longer podcasting to quite the
extent that we are, that we are keeping it going
in a pump up the volume type way. I'm very

(02:56:18):
happy about and I'm getting jazzed about the podcast again.
So I'm going to get every cast member i possibly
can from Shadow of Fear on this show to discuss it,
and oh yeah, we're gonna go full steam ahead on
the podcast, and so please rate and review us. And
I will try and get everyone, yes, even Sarah and
Schultz on the aftermovie diner, to discuss the making of

(02:56:39):
Shadow of Fear, because if I don't, Matt, no one
else will and the whole world. What if by doing
that making of I solve the Spader conundrum and he
is like exploded forever and we awaken out of the matrix.

Speaker 4 (02:56:54):
I think what happens is is that's not that how
it works. I think the way it works it's like
the end of this movie where you trick him into
going on some road where it's windy, rainy road, and
he gets out of the car and he pulls a
gun on you, and you've got a gun, and you know,
he challenges you. You know, are you gonna shoot? And
you gotta. He end up having to shoot him. You
had to pull this trigger. It's either you or him.

Speaker 5 (02:57:14):
And then I become the master of the universe.

Speaker 2 (02:57:18):
And on that Barber Show, all right, Matt, I gotta
go to Madame here.

Speaker 4 (02:57:25):
Absolutely

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Season 2 - Ep 13 - Shadow of Fear - Sleazy Spader Springtime 7: "Sleaze the Day" No. 2

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Season 2 - Ep 13 - Shadow of Fear - Sleazy Spader Springtime 7: "Sleaze the Day" No. 2