Enormocast 288: Don McGrath – The Vertical Mind Returns

On Episode 288 of the Enormocast, I reunite with Don McGrath, the author of the book Vertical Mind. Don appeared nearly a decade ago on the podcast, and his book on the mindset of climbing has never left the conversion. Don has spent the last 10 years learning even more about overcoming the hurdles our …

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And now back to the show.
Hello and welcome to the Enormous gases. Is
your host, Chris Ka. It is
07/09/2024,

(04:24):
about 10:30PM
here in Colorado.
This is and this is episode,
288
of the Enormous cast.
A conversation with second time guest and author
of
the book vertical mind,
Don Mcgrath.
Yeah. Don was on the show back in
the olden times.

(04:45):
20 14,
decade ago back when I had to explain
what a podcast was. When I asked somebody
to sit inside
of my little Rv and record something. Those
hal days back at the beginning. Don was
an early adopter.
He's kinda rev his role as the vertical
mind guy. So I wanna talk to about
what has happened for the last 10 years

(05:06):
and what he's doing currently.
But
before that,
I want to just say a few words
about
John Mid.
Some of you might know that John Mid
passed away and his sleep last month at
the age of 65,
which was a terrible surprise and

(05:27):
big shock, I think to everyone John was
an incredible big wall climber, hyper intelligent gear
designer, loving husband and father. And above all,
I think it was John's
sweet nature and curiosity that made him stand
out. As you longtime listeners know, he appeared
on the podcast in 20 17,
with stories of his wild adventures on Tango,

(05:48):
Elk Cap and beyond, and it was kind
of the beginning of a new phase of
his contribution climbing with d 4 portal alleges
edges,
Incidentally, 1 of which kept me and my
partner Steve D safe during several days of
storm,
on our golden gate san on A cap,
which is also documented on this podcast,
which is to say thanks, John. Your designs

(06:08):
and trail blazing set so many other people,
on the Adventurous path, kept them safe in
the worst situations
and help them weather the storms.
We owe you do see
R I ip my friend.
And I encourage you guys to go back

(06:29):
and listen to that podcast
with John.
His person personality really comes through
great stories,
great man.
And finally, my condolences to his family.
Must be the hardest thing.
Alright. To the interview with Dom mcgrath. You
know, I don't do the training thing. Here

(06:51):
very often.
So many other people,
most of them friends of mine do it
so much better
However, this whole thing with controlling your mind
or using your mind
to help improve the way you approach climbing.
To help improve the way you approach climbing,
that's actually really interesting to me.

(07:12):
Don was sort of early
to that mode. I think
mind
coaching is quite popular now, but he was
on his own a little bit back then.
Ar Il was around training beta, dabble in
it. Anyway, it was good to touch base.
He's also aging, which we talk a little
bit about that. That's something I'm facing. Some

(07:32):
of you guys were facing.
Something you all will face. I know it's
hard to believe. I didn't fucking believe it.
I didn't fucking believe it. Or maybe I
didn't think I'd make it this far. I
don't know.
Anyhow, it's all here. It's a lot of
fun. Starts cooking out till we get the
preliminary out of the way. So check this
out a re
conversation
with the author of vertical mind, Don Mcgrath.

(07:58):
Matt alive did summer show up. And what's
a climber to do when lounging at the
lake slash river slash beach gets mind numbing
boring after a couple dips and half a
chapter of that classic you've sworn a read
for the last 8 years to impress your
mates.
A h ahab, what's this about Whale anatomy
again?
So even though the or is out there

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(09:01):
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cool with Bd.
But, yeah, I mean, welcome back, Don. I
mean, you are an early guest on your
normal cast. You were an early adopter as
it were.
I think if I remember right, we did
an interview in rifle
in the old mobile studio,

(09:23):
parked on the side of the road.
That right? We started out in the campground,
and the river
was too loud. Right. So we got in
your little mobile studio, we drove up almost
to them, like a forest. Yep. And I
remember sitting there and that that was a
that was a long time. Was 10:10 years
ago. So that was early on 20 14.

(09:43):
I think I only been doing it 2
years or it was it was episode 61.
1 of the distinctions of the enormous assets
still hold true is that I was 1
of the first of the block as far
as doing the climbing podcast. I was not
the first. Nor was the enormous cast, my
first attempt at it actually. It's but, kinda
sealed myself as as kind of an original
there. And also, you know, your book, the

(10:04):
vertical mind had come out. And
I think you were also kind of, like,
on the first wave of this idea of
mental training of looking at kind of the
roadblocks that our brain. It puts... Front of
us as far as climbing is concerned. Again,
not necessarily the first,
you know, Ar was was out there with
his program already and stuff like that, but,

(10:26):
in an early adopter. So let's talk a
little bit about, the history of that book.
Yeah. In the last 10 years of of
out there promoting these ideas and and
and digging into new ideas around around the
way we think about climbing.
Yeah. And I wanna say congratulations, Europe to
what? 277.
I think I saw 277,

(10:46):
something like that. I mean, that's that's a
amazing so congrats. Yeah.
Yeah. It's fantastic.
For, yeah. I remember we were both climbing
and rifle. Yep. And that's where vertical mind
really got Genesis.
I I have been doing some research on
myself because I humming and rifle, what I
was finding is I would 1 hang things
way too many times. Like... And I... And

(11:08):
then when I would do it, it was
it would either seem me easy, or I
sometimes I did things twice in the same
day.
And I began to realize that it it
I I was... I probably was strong enough
physically them a month ago? A month before,
But it was really what was between my
ears. It was really something and I didn't
understand it. So I began researching it writing
articles I had a blog for a while,

(11:30):
and I had the good fortune of climbing
a weekend in rifle with Jeff Ellis, who
is the psychology professor from Adam State.
And so we're sitting there. We had a
great day climbing, and we're drinking as margarita
you know, in the campground. And
Be careful as Margarita, it's all I gonna
say, like, if he gives your a margarita
and 1 might be enough. But we... We're

(11:51):
having end writing a book. Yeah. I'm gonna
break. Go either way. Started... Yeah. Or you
in the maria book. You either you either
end up face down in a ditch or
you write a book. It's... It's the end
or the other. Well, the second day, I
didn't roll out of my car camper to
like, 10:10AM,
but everybody else was gone. But in the
in the process, Jeff was telling me about
his research and by the end of the

(12:12):
weekend, we decided we were gonna write something.
We didn't we didn't know it's called Vertical
mind. And then we had a few calls,
and I think it Think it was, like,
9 months later. We submitted a manuscript to
to Fred Nap at Sharp, and he he
he absolutely loved it. So that's kinda how
it got started there very organically in in
rifle. It's something obviously that everybody has thought
about and

(12:33):
has run into these roadblocks, and it's really...
I think Like I said in the last,
I guess it's been 10 years,
since since you were on the show and
and this project started a couple years before
that.
That we've been kind of formally thinking about
it a lot,
and applying outside kind of knowledge to
what we do in climbing. And I think

(12:54):
the training end of things. The physical training
end of things has has also had that
same... It's process in the last decade,
more. We were kinda shooting around in the
dark and then started to think about it
more,
I guess, eloquently and and with more information.
So you know, tell me about your own
path as far as as using some of
this,

(13:15):
information, you know, you obviously wrote it as
much for yourself as for other people or
at least you researched it for yourself. So
tell me a little bit about your pathway
with what you learned and what you were
able to apply it kind of immediately to
the way you were climbing.
Yeah. I kind started because started out of
selfish.
Really, it started out of selfish. I was
I was trying to... Become a better climber.

(13:36):
And I did... I read pretty much everything
I could read. You know, I've I've got
a phd so I'll read everything. Right? I
got research and research and stuff about running
and and and sports psychology and confidence and
all these all these things.
And
1 of the things that that really struck
me
was being in the moment, like, just being

(13:56):
in the moment. And I got thinking about
that. Really, when I coach people, this is
like the number 1 thing that I coach
them on that I see has almost immediate
factors.
1 move at a time. And so I
began practicing on myself,
climbing in the moment. And
by that,
I mean, like, when I grab a hold,
I would just get geek out on it.

(14:18):
Like, get so deep at. How does that
feel like, finding the perfect, way to get
the thumb catch and really just going very,
very deep and really working on my mindset
of staying in the moment,
And I found that I remember I've been
practicing this for, like, maybe a month or
so, and I went with a friend of
mine to

(14:39):
to came in back.
And we were climbing at Dixon wall. And
I, like, did this 12 be second try.
And I didn't do that. Like, that wasn't
what Don Mcgrath could do at the time.
And so that really pointed out to me
the power of this. Right? And that's just
1 example of just 1 move at a
time staying in the moment What's behind you
doesn't matter what's ahead of it doesn't matter.
The more you can stay in that moment

(15:00):
climb and 1 move at a time, the
better you're gonna climb.
So that was like my big wake prize.
Was like, wow, there's really something here. And
that's when I really started digging in and
reading more and experimenting more. And And to
this day, I use that in my coaching,
I use that in myself, and hey. I'm,
I may know a lot about this, but
it doesn't mean I use it all the
time. I fall off the wagon, and I,

(15:21):
you know, I've got times. The life gets
busy.
I I get away from climbing for a
little bit, or I get sick or I
get sloppy. And I bring myself back and
I start doing some of these drills and
and I and I see those same payoffs.
1 of the other,
like, kind of trends or or, I guess,
some... There's been a proliferation of coaching around
controlling fear. So vertical mind... I mean, that

(15:44):
was this much bigger kind of... Talking. I
know I know fear is a part of
it. But what what do you think in
terms of, like, your your clinics or or
the people that approach you or or your
methods Like, what... How much of of it
is about training through fear and and how
much of it is is sort of other
techniques or other boundaries?
Mean, certainly Fear is something we we talk

(16:04):
about in vertical mind. I mean, something that's
very, very common for climber.
Specifically when we talk about fear of falling
and fear of failure, which are 2 different
types of fear that can,
hold climber back. But I... You know, I
think 1 of the big things we do
that's maybe may... Has made us a little
bit different. I'm sure Mh. Other other people
have probably done it is what is the...

(16:25):
What's the science behind cognitive learning? We introduced
this concept of sc.
Which are how your brain recognizes that these
patterns. Like, you recognize when you're in a
situation by visual cues that your brain just
filters and nose immediately and puts... To some
kind of a tag on it, some based
upon your your memories and your life experiences.
And then there's scripts which these automatic things

(16:46):
that come out of your subconscious that you're
in given situation,
they play out automatically. And we have all
of us have these scripts, 90 percent of
what we do is when run off of
scripts. Right? We don't have to think about
brushing our teeth, we just brush our teeth.
So,
I think giving people an understanding of these
psychological processes and then how to why training

(17:06):
works. So like, III love 1 know, I
understand not just what to do, but why?
Like, why am I doing this? Like, 1,
what am I actually doing? And these are
these are well known psychological,
concepts that I think we do a pretty
good job of explaining, given the context and
then drills around those to help you overcome
whatever whatever the challenge you're having is. And

(17:29):
I was thinking too about how, like, those
scripts and and that... That's a good way
to even think about what I was trying
to figure out is... Yeah We also have
these notions of sort of who we are
and and You and I as, you know,
we're we're both growing older, but we're still
trying to climb and still trying to perform,
and you know, that comes with also to
other issues. But
you know, this idea of who you are

(17:50):
as a climber
kinda gets cemented as well and and, you
know, for better and worse at at at
certain times. And I was thinking about myself
and how
recently, you know, I don't think much has
changed in my life, but I've I've noticed
that I'm not not climbing above my gear
and I'm not... And I'm getting gripped, especially
with try climbing, like, a climbing above cams

(18:11):
or whatever,
And and it's kind of been this a
thing where I've finally had to step back
and say, okay, Well, you have this notion
of you as this, like relatively bold climber.
Or at least like a a proficient tread
climber that can, you know, allow his feet
above the gear, you know, at at the
very least not run out, but, as soon
as my waist gets above the gear. I

(18:32):
start to get a little jittery. And so
it's like, I've just recently...
I said to my wife
on a trip I was going down to
climb. In in indian Creek, I'm like, I
just wanna go and and, like, fall
on my cams because I I seem to
have lost that ability
And it's like, it's like I changed, and
I haven't kinda... And I haven't sort of
acknowledged that. Oh, and I've I I finally

(18:53):
had this moment. I'm like, I think I
need to go back to the drawing board
here and take some whip,
even just practice falls, which I was, like,
I thought I was way beyond, you know,
practice falling onto to gear, like, you know,
years ago. But here I am again, like,
you know, this script has changed in a
way, and I haven't, like, noticed it
and I need to go back to the
drawing board and do a little training, I

(19:14):
think if I can. I mean, I'm gonna
find out if I can get up above
gear at all and and leap off or
not. Yeah. Well they did drift a few.
Yeah. They they drift. And like I said
before, like, I have to go back and
do my training. Like, every once in a
while. I gotta go back. When I find
out that, gosh, I haven't been climbing outside
very much. It's very different than climbing the
gym, very different tread climbing

(19:36):
So you gotta you gotta strengthen those scripts
again. The good news is
they're much easier to get back than they
ought to formulate in the beginning. You know,
I don't think it'll take a heck of
a lot, but they drift. So my guess
is you now have drifted away from the
the the cemented belief that you can climb
comfortably above your gear. There's some doubt in
there somewhere. Your belief is Benny eroded. You're,

(19:58):
like well, what if I fall? I gonna
get hurt? I got a kid now. I
got, you know, there's things that shape our
beliefs.
And so you know, I think just going
back and building up a little arsenal of
uneven falls. You know, Gonna be like, hey,
he'll get that script back pretty quick. They
they've ref reform pretty quickly. So 10 years
has gone by, as I mentioned in the
beginning, and obviously, you've learned a lot more

(20:20):
since vertical mine came out. Tell me a
little bit about that about sort of your
progress as a coach
with other people, your progress with yourself over
the last... The years. Is there is there
certain insights you can point to that that
maybe
have have been more significant than others
since the book was written and since you
sort of embarked on this

(20:41):
mission, because that... It's funny because with these
these sorts of things, it it becomes a
mission to sort of change everybody's lives for
the better, and I think you've been on
that mission for 10 years
as a coach. It Day. Just would just
wanna help people so they don't have to
take the long road. So I guess there's
a couple of things. 1 thing that I've
seen in my workshops that...

(21:02):
The most impactful thing, and is it seems
like a silly thing,
but I've just seen it work over and
over again and my... In more workshops I
teach these the pre climb ritual. Because 1
of the... 1 of the things that happens
to us is, you know, we'll go climb
on a given day. Some days, we have
good days. Some of these days we have
bet. Some days we were more nervous when
we're climbing. Some days we say, get a
bat burrito. I don't feel so good today.

(21:23):
And our our motivation and our fun can
actually fluctuate with that. And 1 of the
big things is
getting in the right state of mind when
you start a climb. Getting in a consistent
state of mind when you're start a climb.
And that usually wants to be a pretty
calm state of mind. Usually wanna be kinda
unless you're doing some big d right off
the deck. You know? You wanna be kinda

(21:45):
a a calm state of mind, not distracted
and very very focused on what you're doing,
breathing. So there's a series of things I
teach in my workshops about... You the pre
ritual and what to do to get to
that state and involves breathing it involves a
safety check. It involves stop replacement, like mine
is 1 move at a time. So as
soon as I am up, you know, soon

(22:06):
as I'm up climbing. I start driving out
all those negative thoughts like, oh, the knee
bar is gonna hurt this time or oh.
Be a scary wallet there. The crux is
really hard. It's just astounding what some simple,
simple things can make a huge difference for
people. It could And I've seen in a
couple hours, these things help people in their
climbing.
So that... That's 1. That's been astounding. That

(22:28):
just such a simple thing is... Creating and
practicing
a pre time ritual, and what what what
I ask people to do
is doing it on every climb. The warm
up everything, you know,
practice practice all this stuff in your warm
offs we don't learn to play the Piano
on the stage at the Grand old op.
We learn in a safe environment.

(22:48):
Where we can practice slowly and deliberately
and mindful.
So
that's
that's kinda of... It's may seem like a
silly thing, but having people have used who
religiously use a pre prime ritual. They find
a big difference in their ability to...
To climb get more joy out of their
climbing on a climbing day. Yeah. I mean,
it's it's interesting to kind of, like,

(23:11):
Again, I mean, going back to, I guess,
my
you know, pre conceived notions
is,
like, Yeah. Like, all that would seem to
me or would have seemed to me, like,
kind of fl fl. I'm like, yeah, whatever.
Like, you know, just... I'm tied in. I'm
I'm going climbing.
You know,
I don't I don't have to do all
these sorts of things

(23:33):
as part of my climbing day.
And is it... Do you find it, like,
tricky to convince, like,
jerks like me to to,
I guess if people are coming to you,
they want stuff. But Yeah. No. I don't
spend... Getting over somebody you doesn't want. Doesn't
wanna my clients new. Not that's a waste
of my breath. And in fact, I, I
do very little coaching now because I I
wanted to climb. I'm I'm kinda 60 something.

(23:55):
I only got so many client tickets left.
I only got so many tickets in a,
in a week.
So I'll usually to coach people if I
I get... I do a workshop. Don't do
those at off. And or if somebody reaches
out, some sometimes like, I had this mother
of a 10 year old competition climber.
Reach out to me and say, hey, you
know, my my son gets really nervous and

(24:15):
distracted. Can you help? And I was like,
okay. So III
help them. I don't I don't waste time.
Trying to convince anybody to do anything. I
I want
I want people coming
with a open mind that I'll try this.
You know, And and in my workshops, I...
I'm like, Listen.
The these are things I... That you can
try. You know, I'm gonna... In in the

(24:37):
3 or 4 hours, I usually give a
lot of things. Right? It's way more. And
I say, if you just take 1 thing.
Just 1 thing that makes sense for you.
And everything else throw away, Like, you can
throw it all the way, but just be
open and and try it.
And that's those are the people I want
in my workshops. And they're are the ones
who see to benefit. Do you still do
workshops then? Yeah. Once in a while. Okay.
Just not just not straight up coaching.

(24:58):
Yeah. And coaching, I just don't... It's it's
very, very time consuming, and,
I just... I I feel back because I,
you know, it may sound weird, but I
just I... My time is too valuable.
Sure. You know? I I don't I I
can't... Don't I feel bad charging people that
much money because it's just... It's... I don't
know. So I do your heart's not in
it. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I do

(25:18):
workshops. I really enjoy that. I do I
did a talk yesterday. I love I love
teaching people things. Mh. Coaching, I do on
a very, very select basis. I have people
reach out to me probably every month. And
and I asked him a few questions. I
asked them how committed they are. I ask
you know, been a little bit about their
background and pretty quickly, we decide whether it's
a good fit or not. It's it's... And

(25:39):
it's it's usually it's usually not.
Well, you know, I've been thinking about this
thing, and this may be a total tangible.
You know, I don't know what your insights
are. And, I think it was actually Hazel
that
I had someone on that was talking about
this,
this idea of, like, a lot of climber

(26:00):
don't seem to actually enjoy climbing or or,
like, think climbing is all that fun. You
know, every time they they sort of arrive
at the Craig. It's it's this crucible on
which they're gonna test themselves, and I'm not
even talking about project I'm just talking about
for a lot of people like, going climbing.
Is filled with kind of
you know, hurdles, all sorts of hurdles. And

(26:22):
whatever attraction they have to it Isn't about
going out and having fun, but about going
out and sort of, like, what is my
day gonna, like, challenge me with. And I
just find it really interesting. I I was
just recently talking to someone about it How,
like, I noticed that a crowded cliff
that, like, a lot of people really just
weren't that into the climbing. Like, it's they
were into there being a climber and stuff,

(26:43):
but
are not very many people are like, whipping
it up and having a good time. Like,
where does, like, this idea of
moving away from this kind of, you know,
always testing yourself, always pushing yourself, always trying
to overcome these things to just having fun,
and remembering that it's like a fun activity
that you don't have to do. You don't...

(27:03):
No 1 is forcing you to go out
there and get scared and and feel like
a failure. Awesome Like, where is this trying
to preach like, have a good time. Yeah.
Does that fit into sort of your coaching?
The space finding is a meetings
activity. Right.
I mean, it's kinda very selfish and very
kind of meaningless. Right? It's really... If you're
not if you're not doing it for fun,

(27:24):
you're kinda not only this... The ball you
missed the whole game. The subtitle of vertical
mind is psychological approaches for optimal rock climbing.
Mh. Not difficult rock climbing. Optimal rock climbing.
We actually talk a lot about fun and
what's the psychology of fun and how to
create more joy and fun in your climbing,
And when you can reduce the anxiety, you

(27:45):
tend to have more fun, like that pre
ritual is about really managing that anxiety.
You know, so when you start the climb,
you're actually in a much better much better
state. So I think it's extremely important. And
I think,
and maybe this is why we're... I've she's
seen so much energy around vertical mine the
past couple of years. And that's kinda why
I'm doing this again. Right? I I kinda

(28:06):
bunch of stop. When a book first came
out, and then I kinda went to sleep
on it, and I retired for my job,
and then I'd been trying to figure out
what what I wanna do with by time
besides climb and eat and sleep and how
fun my wife. That's it. So I think
that's enough actually.
So you've added 1 more thing, but anyway.
It's it's...
There's a lot of energy around it, and

(28:27):
I think there's a whole...
You know, what this space? When we started
climbing, you got declining because you knew a
climber.
Or you were involved in the outdoors and
you saw climbing as something that seems sensible.
Right? Mh. And so that was pretty narrowing,
the personalities of people who started climbing 10:20,
30 years ago was a very

(28:47):
narrow type of person.
And now with a thousand people a day
being introduced to climbing gyms in the Us
alone, there's a whole group of new people
with Right. Whole different backgrounds.
And many of them, they don't enter it
wanting to climb hard at all. Like, they
use it for exercises, they do it because,
you know, they didn't like their old gym

(29:08):
or they got tired of pilates or they
were and a friend brought. Them and they
were like, wow, It's really cool. So I
think I think there's a lot more people
who they just do it for fun and
they wanna know how do I do it
for fun yet,
manage these things that come with it, which
is fear of falling. Right, which is fear
of failure, which is these automatic things that
at some point they encounter in their journey.

(29:30):
Yeah. Well, to me that it's a real
paradox.
That I've I've I've come to accept. And
actually, maybe the podcast has been a desire
to sort of sort this out, but you
know, I I can go there. I can
sit in front of you and be, like,
people should be having fun climbing, but I
know my own experience with it is that
if it was just dumb fun,

(29:50):
I wouldn't be interested in it. And it,
you know, it you can go and bungee
jump. Right? That's like a classic like dumb
fun.
Thing where you can get a little thrill
and and walk away, like, laughing. But,
like, the... To me, at least the the
the the challenge and the knock downs, if
you will. And the times when I do

(30:10):
actually get pushed beyond my comfort zone,
and maybe also get pushed to where I
do feel like something of a failure that
day. Like, those things are also this really
important ingredient to climbing climbing would not be
interesting to me if we're just that goof
around out there all the time. Well, there's.
So it's it's like this weird balance or

(30:31):
this weird mick and and so I can't
always tell people like, you know, you you
should just have fun because,
I mean, and and then we get into
if we wanna get into sort of big
climbing.
You know, the suffering is certainly an ingredient
that is an important part of it to
any a, you know? So Anyway, I'll let
you comment on that, but it it's it's
this heavy mix and and without the heavy

(30:52):
mix,
it wouldn't be what it is. Well, 2
things come to mind in... From what you
said. 1 is and and we actually talk
a lot about this in vertical mind we
talk about
motivation. And, you know, there's a flavor of
happiness
that comes
we call probably more like fulfillment is a
probably maybe a better word. Right? And that's
driven by... We all love to master something.

(31:15):
We all love to move along as our
human brains are this way. We'd love to
see ourselves progress on something. It's mastery motivation
drives a lot of them like, we we
love feeling what it's like to be able
to type something we couldn't hike before. Be
able to... It's you know, play an instrument
that we've never been, and we haven't been
able to play, you know, practice for a
long time and then eventually perform a concerts.

(31:36):
So there's parts of our brain,
that just love that. And so I still
label that fun.
It's right. It's kinda fulfillment. Right? Right.
So, like, I went out yesterday, my often
and I went to off road. We just
wanted to get out because the weather's is
gonna be crappy in the next 2 weeks.
We went there and we tried to get
away from the crowds, and we did a

(31:57):
bunch of stuff we had done before. And
we didn't do anything difficult.
But I love getting on these climbs just
walking up to them never been on them
and just do them, just feeling great.
And it wasn't... It was it was mastery
motivation. Like, just the fact that I could
walk up to this thing and just feel
great on outside it and just you know,
it challenge me a little bit enough to

(32:18):
make it interesting and to feel that mastering
motivation. But, yeah. That... So there's there's a
certain flavor,
of fun that is in that mastery motivation
That makes sense? Totally. I mean, you know,
this proliferation of... What's
become a meme and a and a meme
in the sort of old school sense, not
just a a picture on Instagram, but the

(32:38):
meme of the type 123 fun thing. Like,
you know, that seems like it's always been
here, but I think that, like, started to
appear about 10 years ago. This this way
of signify. You know, I was type 2
fun or whatever. And I think it's funny
because it's this kinda of joke and it's
this meme that's gone through not just climbing,
but all all types of, I think, outdoor

(32:59):
activities.
But it's also, like, embedded in it, maybe
this is why it caught on so much
is this like what you're talking about. So
it's it's kinda fascinating that, like, this little
thing that we toss off, I always was
type 2 fun or whatever, is actually, like,
you know, you could probably do a psychology
thesis on it
if if you wanted to because it's all
in there. What we're talking about, You know?

(33:20):
I really think... The more emotional something is,
the easier it is to to connect with
that memory.
Okay? So think about, like, the times of
great successes or the times of most misery.
You'll remember,
you'll remember that. Right? It'll I'll bring you
back, you almost have the smells of it,
You can... It's almost spooky. Right? You almost

(33:40):
feel whatever the feeling was at that time.
So the more emotional something is, the more
that memory is easier to... Call and the
more physically you feel that memory. Mh. And
so there's some psychology around that. So in
this type 2 fun situation, like, I was
just out in Red rock, fine with an
old call mentor mine, and we were up
in the room, and we were getting... We
were in the shade, and it was only

(34:01):
like, 50 something degrees, and it was 40
mile hour gust, and we were getting
splash it up there. I bet I was
2 canyon over from you that same day
it. Anyway, keep going? Yeah. It was it
was really really brutal like... Yeah. And
So... But I will remember that. Like, I
will remember that. I go, I could almost
picture the ballet. Like, I could picture being

(34:22):
there. I could. I... Not exactly what sling
I was using, but it's clubs.
So I think that's 1 of the reasons
we like this type too fun.
Is it creates
unbelievably vivid memories. And and think about the
stories you tell. Right? I still tell stories
of type too fun from
20 years ago, and and they're... And I

(34:43):
can get right back there. And so that...
That's 1 of the reasons I think we
like it is it just brings back those
It brings us back there so vividly. Alright.
Well, let me throw this 1 at. Yeah.
We're we're a little bit away from the
vertical mind, but but just here... Your expertise
in this stuff, and and and your your
writing partner, Jeff's expertise. So this idea of,
like, a your reflective group, I think a

(35:05):
very...
Difficult thing to get past and climbing is
comparison.
And, you know, what your group is doing
versus what you're doing, what the greater climbing
world is doing versus who you are as
a climber. You know, we're talking about how
we met and rifle and rifles, you know,
this important place for us as as our
progression as climber, but it's very difficult place
to to walk into as a as a

(35:26):
newer or a or a, you know,
climber that's climbing 05:10? I mean, literally, it's
not great for that. But, you know, so
what what are you kind of
do and sort of, like,
preach as far as as that world is
concerned because it's really difficult to get around,
you know,
knowing... I mean, you go in and and

(35:46):
when you go to climb 05:11 in a
place that's a sport climbing area,
not just rifle, but all over, you know,
there is this idea that you're on the
warm up, you know, and there's people standing
in line waiting for you to get done
so they can work
Hang on. I know. And it may not
be a warm up for you, and that's
my whole point. Not. And I... You know,

(36:07):
you and I have watched this happen at
the meats. Right? The the the infamous, like,
05:11 warm ups and and rifle. Where someone
is up there prop, like, working on it,
and everybody's... Gru or may maybe not literally,
but the person up there thinks they hear
them gru. That's the difference.
Appearance so that. Well, So anyway, where do
you go with, like, your it's actually the

(36:28):
reference group. That's that's what... That's the word
I was looking for. This idea of comparing
yourself and and being in the mix.
Because it's definitely a brute brutal part of
our sport. So here's the thing is we
are we are human animals, and there's part
of our brain also.
The reason
The reason we're still here is we are
social creatures and we live for hundreds or

(36:48):
maybe thousands of years we lived in tribes.
Right? We lived in social
situations where if we got expelled from the
tribe, what would happen to us?
And you'd be dead. You that
The saber tooth would munch you if like
Dude there's some other tribe would come and
take your stuff and kill an. I don't
know. But... Yeah. If... You know, so it's,
you know, it's part of our Dna.

(37:10):
To wanna be accepted. You know, they... In
psychology pop technologies. Oh, we all wanna be
accepted. Well, that's true. We all do wanna
be accepted, and it's it's wired. Right?
So
you can't feel bad about that. It we're
wired that way. The reality is,
nobody cares.
I mean, in inc context, nobody really cares.

(37:31):
And I I was gonna to talk up
at the B,
maybe it was a year ago or so
and I asked, you know, about
scripts and, you know, some things that are
holding people back. And 1 guy was like,
he climbed in rifle. He just started climbing
there and he he was training and He...
He wanted to get him pup rama, he's
like, man, I get there, and I'd see,
you know, there'd be a line and I

(37:51):
see people doing it, Like, like, it's a
warm up and monkey hanging like all this
stuff. Right? So... And he said, I just
don't want people to think more of me.
I to think less me. Right? And and
I I had to give him the tough
love. I was like, you know,
nobody nobody cares.
And nobody cares. No. They don't. The lat.
Say, when they're at home having their favorite
beverage, whether it be a t or whether

(38:12):
it be an adult beverage.
They can me think about you? No. No.
They're they're... We only live in our own
bubbles. Right? The only thing is they might
think, you know, they might watch you struggle
on something like oh, I remember when I
first struggled on that. Most likely they'd be
saying, hey, dude. Awesome.
Way to work. Right? That's what people really
are saying more likely.

(38:34):
Once in a while, you might get a
snarky person who's like, oh, god. I get
off that thing. I'm gonna lose my warm
up. But they're again, they're thinking about them.
Right. It's not directed to you.
Right. It's really directed at them. So people
really don't care. And I think just coming
to a recollection.
That, you know, we all live in our
own bubbles, you may think.

(38:55):
Here's thing. If if you are having a...
If you're thinking that you know what someone
else is thinking,
you are 100 percent wrong. Right. You are
a hundred percent wrong. There's 0 chance you're
gonna be right. And so why
why think that they're thinking something that holds
you back? Why put that in their mind
when there's, like, hundred bit of chance. That's
not there. They're thinking about when are they

(39:16):
hungry? When are they gonna get rest? You
know, I hope they get a campsite tonight.
They're thinking of a million other things,
not you. No. It's funny because I've had
that conversation and... You the exact 1, like,
actually with my wife because she sort of
has... She she she kind of has this
ambivalent
attitude to rifle, and
you know, kinda

(39:36):
says she feels that. And I'm like, no.
No 1, like, that's why I'm like no
1 cares. Like, and and in fact what
I realized is that maybe that's the problem.
Is is not necessarily her, but but people
want us to care, and we don't. Like,
you know what I mean Like, you said
the tough love is that, yeah. We, you
know, whatever you're doing over there on your
climb.
We're not watching. We're not caring if we

(39:57):
glance up there. It's just, you know, it
was because we're... Bored and we're just looking
around. You know, Like... And that's kind of
the funny thing I was like, well, maybe
that's the problem. They wanna...
A loser.
Comparison the loser. No matter... No matter what,
Like, no matter what you compare money, cars,
like, blah. Name it. Whatever... Mh. Whatever you
wanna compare yourself it? There's somebody who's got,

(40:18):
like,
way more of it. Whether it be way
less of it. Right? So
comparing it's its total losing game. It's it's
like you never get fulfilled. With comparison. And
in fact, that could be 1 of the
reasons this pre climb ritual is so effective.
Because when you're... 1 of the things is
like the stop replacement. So when you get
up which for many people as they start
putting their shoes on or something. Right? Having

(40:40):
the stop replacement of 1 move at a
time when move at a time, when move
at a time, you're... You can only have
1 thought in time, So you're pushing out,
oh, what are people gonna think of me?
Oh, do I really belong on this route?
You know, how... Am I gonna make it
all the way up at? They're trying and
draws. Who cares? There's chains on the thing.
Who cares. But so I I think this
pushes away all those things. And right. Gives

(41:00):
you a moment an island where you can
just... Climb. You can just be. Right? And
so I I think that may be 1
of the reasons this this technique works pretty
darn well. Also, and and I like how
you were talking about how your own training
in this ebb and flows and you have
to go back to it and everything else
because, you know, I'm acting like I am...
You know, this wise person that knows about

(41:22):
this and and doesn't do it, but, of
course, like, there's...
Like, just the other day, someone was like,
well, why don't you try this route? And
I was like. That's like the scene right
there, And I just don't like climbing in
that zone where it's like the total
scene where... You know, and we can think...
I... We don't need to keep referencing
specific things to rifle because it happens on

(41:43):
any sport climbing area,
there's a... Or, you know, or any area.
Really, there's, like, these places where everybody's banging
it out, and it's like a big group
and I tend to avoid those places.
But it seems like if I had, like,
a very solid,
you know, ability of what you're talking about,
I could walk into those. Those places and
and maybe become an island and and climb

(42:05):
where all the banter going on and all
the blah blah blah, all the
Do you know what I mean? Like, maybe
I could become this person if I if
I was a better had a better pre
climb ritual, but it's hard. You could guarantee
be awesome. Be true to what you wanna
do. Right. And be really clear. It's like,
I was just... I was just editing an
interview I had with Mark on for the
podcast, and 1 of his ism is if

(42:28):
it ain't fun and ain't done.
And you just gotta... Do I wanna do
that? Like, truthfully. And do do I just
wanna be around that many people. And that's
outside of your your own worrying about what
they're gonna think? There could just be a
proximity. Like, I just don't like the noise
and don't like the chatter. There's other places
to go. So Yeah. Now if there a
root that that you really wanted to do

(42:49):
and that crowd we're keeping you away.
That's
the time when it's like, okay. I probably...
I really wanna do that, but I'm being
held back.
Mh. Buy this this thing that I know
I can work on. Well, it might be
worth working on. Oh, let's move on to
things going on in your life and and
again, you've you've just mentioned how you you've

(43:10):
sort of come back to vertical mind and
opened up the can worms again as it
were.
You wrote me something that said that you've
done a couple days c coaching with Hazel
and working on an actual kind of pilot
to I don't know some type of series.
I don't know where where it's going to
appear or what it's going be. So...
And and she's, you know, it's funny because

(43:31):
she's... She's occupied this space in the last
couple years and become, you know, 1 of
these go to coaches on these very issues
again that that you started bringing up 10
years ago. So it's a a as a
meeting of the minds to to kinda use
a pun.
So tell me about that, tell tells us
about this this thing and and your excitement
around

(43:52):
whatever's is going on with the the what
you call the Doc series. So over the
past, I would say 2 or 3 years,
it's been a little weird. I've been at
the... Craig, people would come up to me
and like, oh,
you know, I had people quote vertical line
at the Craig. 1 person was like, oh,
either follow I won't, and I had... I
was like,
She says, I learned that for vertical mind.

(44:12):
And I was like are you kidding me?
So there's been some energy around it and
it's kinda, I mean, like wow. This is
really... You know, there's there's actually a lot
of them out there now because we got
the audiobook and the Kindle it's kinda gone
out there. And, I... Wow I have known
this guy, Jay Jacob code for about over
10 years before I even wrote vertical mind,
and I I knew him when I were
up my first book, and he was... Into

(44:34):
websites and stuff. And we've kinda stayed in
contact. Well, 1 day he calls me up,
and this was last year and early last
year and calls me up and says You
know, Don, I was in a spa
in crest stone,
and there was a guy in there who
was a climber. And he told me he
and his wife had come to climb.
Than that area.
And so I said, hey, I know. He's

(44:55):
she's said, hey, I know a climber. And
in fact, he wrote a book vertical a
mine and the guy goes, I love that
book. Oh my god. And so Jay phones
me up and he he's trying to pitch
me on doing a show because he's become
a fan of things on outside Tv and
he's he was off... Repaired, like, trying to
sell me on doing this thing, And I
was like, after, like, 5 minutes. I was
like, no, it sounds like, a great idea.
Let's do it. So I'd already kind of

(45:16):
been prime to, hey, there's a lot of
energy around this right now. The climb community
is growing really quickly and people are curious
about it. So we kinda of put our
heads together and we came up with this
definition around a Doc series, and the the
format would be, I'd be the host and
we'd have other experts like Hazel on the
topic of flow.
I talked to Katie Brown about being the

(45:38):
cause for for fear of failure. And so
some of these other climber who
kind of our experts in their own right.
I... I'm teaming up with them, and we
have a couple of... We call them guest
climber, so non famous non experts, they come
and we spend a couple of days, like
coaching them in whatever the topic is. You
know, like, I did this thing with Hazel.

(45:58):
We went out to Moa, and we coach
a couple climber about flow. Who were people
who are trying to find more flow in
their climbing.
Fantastic. Hey
like the nicest person.
Geez great. Jeez really, really sweet. Really, really
smart.
We did... We had a great time coaching
together. You know, we we put together this
pilot... We haven't edited it yet. That's kind

(46:19):
of on on my to do list of
get that done, because it's... You know, I
sit back and I I watch it. It
was... 1 of the women wanted to wanted
to start project.
Okay. So she had been climbing, like, 11:11
plus in Moa.
And she really wanna start project 12. That
she just hadn't, and she and she had
some...
Some friction in doing so. So Hazel and

(46:40):
I spent some time coaching her on how
to do that. It was interesting trying to
apply flow to pro
because they... You know, that they're not usually
seen this way. So he's and lie I
both were able to learn ourselves a lot
and shed some light onto
how flow can be found.
In project projecting and how it applies. So
we just had a fantastic time. And I

(47:01):
just gotta know from this Carolyn woman she
just sent this climb desert shield that we
helped her to work on back.
Yeah. So she's like, hey, By the way,
I went to bed desert shield I was
thinking all the things that you and Da
coach me on. And I just sent it.
I was like, oh my goodness. How cool
man. That's not that's not like some, like,
like, Dink Lil sport climb. Right, that's like
a big proud

(47:22):
Indian Creek desert climb. Yeah.
And it's also not like, just classic
straightforward plugging cams in and go and there's,
like, there's climate in there. This was also
deep congratulate, Carol and his eyes. Then? Weird
turnaround,
Bomb basing and then Oh, yeah. Totally. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm little gear right there. Little gear.
Yeah. Ben Yeah. Totally. That's awesome. So Carolyn

(47:44):
is that what you said her name is.
Yeah. Carolyn. Congratulations, Caroline, if you're listening. Yeah
Caroline.
I was...
1 of the proudest roots in the Creek.
Yeah. What I mean, where it sits and
in that upper d,
ridiculous. Nice job. Roots So that that in
my inbox about a month or so ago,
and I just brought the go. Biggest smile
at my face. So that... And that's what

(48:05):
we're hoping to do. We're hoping to bring
some expertise. So and share with people some
some coaching in this doc series. So we
did the pilot. Right now, we're in the
process of looking for,
distribution like, we've been talking to a bunch
of distribution, try to trying to get the
money to produce the rest of the things.
So now
it's just 1 in that part of the
journey. I was like, okay. We're... We have

(48:27):
this pilot, and I I just decided to
start a podcast. So the the doc series
is tunnel inside the vertical mind.
And the podcast is inside the vertical mind.
And so 1 of the things
I wanna do with the podcast is I
wanna... Talk about things that are, like, the
mental and social aspects of declining. I I...
I'm really not focused on who's done the

(48:48):
hardest as the newest d 16 or you
know, who's done the hardest things. I wanna...
I'm more interested in things like how
how to bring more fun to your climbing.
You know, what to do after you're pregnant
for women. After you're pregnant, how to get
back in into climbing in that situation. So
bringing people with different experiences,
to the podcast,

(49:08):
that's kinda... That's kinda what I what I
wanna do. So I done a few episodes,
and I'm very excited about it.
Is it out? I mean, people are lit...
Your Yeah put put this 1 out? Yeah.
I have got 3 episodes out there. I
just finished editing along with Mark K. We
talked about as Ism.
Is little kinda qui sayings that are that
are kinda fun. And I'm I'm trying to

(49:28):
get a couple episodes done a month. 1
of the things that I kind of think
about with you as this as this... And,
you know, you're not you're not, like, technically
coaching you said anymore. But but all this
stuff is about
you know, is about sort of a broad
idea of of coaching of of getting people
past these hurdles
through through your knowledge and what you know

(49:50):
in your experience. And, you know, in coaching
are this idea of of people doing this
is is also kind of relatively new. I
mean, you know, if you went back 20
years ago, who would we even talk about,
like, Who Newman? Like, you know, or John
Long through his, like, you know, you go
back even further through his, like, how to
rock climb

(50:10):
series if year old enough to to probably
have,
devoured those.
And and, you know, but it it this
whole
proliferation of it is is very new and
it's because we have this this format, this
online format to be able to do it,
which has also grown in use and popularity
not... Hasn't been around that long. The idea
of skype was the

(50:30):
kind of verb with it, but there's 80
platforms to do it now. So that's been
part of it. But 1 of the things
I've enjoyed or I enjoyed when you came
out with vertical mind and talking to you
last time is that,
you know, you aren't no offense and hope,
I can't... I wanna offend you with this.
But, you know, it's like, you're not a
hot shit
top of the form climber, you know, and

(50:50):
and you you sort of never really were,
you know,
And and so it's like,
that perspective, I think, sometimes I'm a little
suspicious and of, like, these top end climber
that are gonna teach some you know, someone
to break through from 05:10 to 05:11. Like,
you... Do you even remember what that was
like? Like, has... Was that ever a thing

(51:11):
for you? So so many of,
top end climber. You know, they they basically
came out of the womb climbing pretty darn
hard or pretty immediately.
And I think Hazel is someone who's who's
able to to do that in my mind,
she's able to put herself empathetic in in
the shoes of of someone that's not nearly
as...
Accomplish this she is, but I don't think

(51:32):
all coaches are. And so do you... Is
that something that you're you actively think about
this idea of, being empathetic to those who,
you know, went through something... Or... Or, sorry.
Those who are going through something that you
went through
a long, long time ago. Again, no offense
style... No. Not No. I quite the same
never age wise never been that part of
a climber, you know, and it end. But

(51:54):
I'm extremely enthusiastic.
I've loved climbing for 33 years now and
there's no end in sight, and we all
have our talents. Right? 1 of my talents
isn't necessarily climbing. I actually do have a
pretty good talent about taping taking complex things
and making them sound simple. And so that's
what I you know, 1 of my goals
in vertical mind was to make what is

(52:15):
a very complex subject and actually this books
written, you can barely read because the vocabulary
is so difficult to get through. But through
telling of the stories and a little bit
of science and a little bit of practical,
try to make it consumable for people. And
so that's 1 of the things I enjoy.
And
yeah. I I feel like people who aren't.
In fact, I would say the people that

(52:36):
don't wanna do my workshops to stuff are
the harder climber.
Sure. You know? It's like, I know way
more than that. I, you know, I but
it's the people who are, like, wow. I
think I could really learn from this. You
know? Because I I mean I... On that
on, like, 13 something.
So... And I didn't climb in for...
A long time.
I've taken lots of falls.

(52:57):
So,
you know, that's that's I think the people
of the more
everyday climber who maybe the climb up to
10 or 11 kind of really see what
I do and they're... They they like it,
and they can relate to me. Then I
keep things fun. Like, my workshops are flipping
fun. That's 1 of my objectives. If you
ain't have fun it and getting done.
Well, the thing too is that, you know,

(53:18):
I've always noticed.
Is that you're... You what you just described
and and if you wanted to break through
from, like, you know, 11 to 12. Like,
that is...
Has traditionally been this very big hurdle. And
and,
you know, I think it's easy to think
that because of the way we consume climbing
media that that 05:12 is not hard anymore,

(53:40):
because of with the way people climb, you
know, it seems like, again, they they they
come out of the womb climbing much much
harder than that. But, our friend,
or my friend, I don't know if you're
friends with them. I think you know, Andrew
Bi at.
You know, we joke because he he... 1
of his long lost books that he wrote
that's out of print or whatever was, you
know, how to climb 05:12 or... You know,

(54:01):
it had this really crazy long title about
how basically to go from 11 to 12.
I feel like that's still this great big
hurdle, you know, in that and that people
come to this
roadblock right there,
especially if you're somewhat casual about your climbing
if you have a job in a life
and it you know, kids and all those
sorts of things. And 5 5 tens that

(54:21):
way for a lot of people. People who
aren't necessarily, you know, extremely fit to begin
with. And we see that a a lot
more in the gym of these days.
You know? You you could walk in any
gem. There's a whole section of people who...
So They're doing it for exercise. They're doing
for the social part, they probably will never
plan fight well. If you gotta do some
specialized training. Right? Some specialized training like, our

(54:44):
our fingers hanging out of small holes like
that. I'm experiencing that right now. I haven't...
Let's see Last year. I I made a
pretty good run at. Trying to climb harder,
but then I I got some elbow problem
in the fall, then I got a horrible
flu. And so now I'm kinda getting back
my crew strength and it. Did easy? Like,
it takes... That's a very specialized strength. So,

(55:04):
yeah, let's talk about that then where, you
know, you're climbing and everyone's climbing.
You know, ebb and flows and it changes
meaning and it and you change motivations or
everything else. You are retired. I... That's happened
since you wrote the book that, can free
up time, for some people, doesn't. But yeah.
Where where's rock climbing for you, and what

(55:25):
are your own personal goals
again, as we face aging and and things
like that. Yeah. I've never been more enthusiastic.
I climbed 3 days a week, and it's
not my time.
I could... I've got time to climb more,
but I'm 61.
It's my body. I me, I need that
amount of recovery.
And just to just to feel good and

(55:46):
stay healthy. So last year, I was trying
to climb a little harder. You know, I
I wanted to get up to, like, 12.
Plus 13 minus.
And I was I was really getting there.
I was up to, like, 12 plus and
when I got this elbow thing,
so it can it can happen. You just
gotta really apply yourself.
This year, we're gonna be doing some traveling.
So I just wanna get in that's that

(56:09):
confidence level
on any terrain where I could just walk
up to... In any climbing area, just walk
up to things that look inspiring to me
and are in a a reasonable great range
and just go up and and have fun
and, you know, be able to outside and
come close. So that's kind of my my
near term goal is that general overall fitness
level

(56:29):
to kinda be able to do that. And
do other climber that are aging Do you
see a lot of people looking at you
and and wanting to kinda
get your secrets?
Is that, like, a demographic that you feel
like approaches you quite a bit on this
or not? Yeah. I mean, I've got a
lot of people on Facebook who some of
them might met some might haven't met. And
there's a lot of us out there, you

(56:50):
know, 50 plus. Oh who are in the
game. We wanna stay in the game.
It's
you know, and those who are pretty successful
at it. The other people want know what
they're doing. Right? And so here's 1... I'll
share with you,
1 thing I've learned that's relatively new. I
I would say I've learned this in the
past 567

(57:10):
years
that
I used to pretty much be able to
eat and drink whatever I wanted to.
And I just did enough
climbing or whatever that I I could always
maintain, like, a pretty good pretty good level
of fitness and my clothes fit and everything.
And I've just found that I have to
pay more attention to that now and the

(57:31):
past couple years I find when I stopped
drinking alcohol that all of a sudden, I
start shedding belly fat that's been stubborn for
me, like,
I could exercise so while I'm blue the
face. I can watch what I eat till
I'm blue the face.
And I wanna I wanna have an expert
on that on my podcast because I wanna
I wanna learn about that. I have a
feeling. There's some

(57:51):
some metabolic things in the high sugars and
everything that are involved in that that it...
Like, I I stop and it just... I
start melting away. So
that has been kind of a secret for
me. That's really been super helpful. And and
I'm also finding that
When I do that, my motivation increases, my
anxiety goes down. And so I I think

(58:12):
there's for me that that really has been
helpful. Was this something that was tricky? I
mean, is it a part of your life?
I mean, not not as far as like,
you know, a problem, but, like, you know,
No. It's socially and everything else? My wife
and I would do it Right. Friday and
Friday night Date and night I get a
ball line and Have a cocktail whatever. And
so that's been challenging
to navigate.

(58:33):
Right? But I think
once you start and you see... I I
just see what happens. And I'm like, well,
okay. I wanna get there.
And
by the way, it's really hard to get
there any other way. And so,
you know, for a month, 2 months, 3
months
make the make the change. And
it's it's just remarkable for me. So I
wanna learn more about that, because I... I

(58:54):
wish thought calories is a calorie. Right?
Alright. But I think there's something more subtle
in there. So I wanna... I'm gonna learn
a little bit more about that. Well, I
mean, I think all the research is showing
just it's... Yeah. I mean, it's it's poison.
Yeah. I you're just poisoning yourself on all
different levels. And like it, you know, it
turns out that whole a glass of wine
thing a day was was completely bullshit and

(59:15):
was basically funded by the all wine industry.
You know. So it... Yeah. It's kind of
interesting that, like, you know, the health benefits
will go away beyond whether or not you
can Climb 13 a again or not, you
know. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No. So, again, it's
it's I look at... I look at where
where I wanna be. I wanna be as
health. As I can. I wanna continue to

(59:36):
do what I want as long as possible
wanna avoid any of the nasty things. Here's
some other things is you get your sixties.
You start looking around. You start you rapidly
people around you or your age starting to
come down with some things that are hard.
Mh. You know, life changing medical things.
And so you start
getting a little more conscious of my actions,

(59:57):
like, maybe I should try harder, you know,
as some things. Like, getting getting the right
times exercise, maybe
watching more how I would eat, Maybe being
a little more careful with injury prevention. You
know, maybe stretching more, as so it that...
That's kind been
kind of a wave for me
in the last couple of years. And so

(01:00:17):
it's it's... It's been something I'm thinking a
lot about. Yeah. It's fascinating too with the
alcoholic thing about how, you know, in in
this show is part of it, You know,
we joke around about it all the time,
and you know, had a whiskey sponsor, and,
you know, we started this podcast. We're talking
about, you know, your your buddy's margarita at
post climbing. It's such this It really is,
at least with outdoor climbing, it really is

(01:00:38):
kind of in the fiber, you know,
that kind of like, hanging out drinking beers
after climbing sort of thing is I mean
rifle. It's it's almost, you know, it's almost
like a institutional thing you have to do
when you're there. And in a weird way.
And,
it's... So it's kinda fascinating, like, look at
it and be like, well, Jeez, it's it's
completely detrimental to what our pursuit is But

(01:00:59):
but it's also, like, back to having fun.
It's also fun. It's. I'm moderated.
Drink peers friends after after a after a
day of climbing kinda. And vertical mind.
1 of the things was Margarita. Right? We
Jeff and I sit around drinking Margarita so...
Right and I I would, you know, I
would not wanna do that for the world.
It's just when I when I look at
what my objectives are and what my challenges

(01:01:21):
are,
how just changing 1 thing can make a
big difference sometimes. And just got yourself what
it what I wanna do? So how do
people figure out when this
this maybe Doc series is coming out if
it does and and things like that? Like,
how do they connect with you don? So
probably best thing to do is
you can follow inside the vertical mine podcast

(01:01:43):
because I'll I'll be talking a lot about.
That. That's on Spotify, Apple podcast,
Youtube music. All the things. Yep. Or
you can go to vertical mine dot show.
Is a website where we'll be doing updates
on the progress,
progress for that. Cool. Fossil on Instagram
at inside the vertical mine.
Okay. Cool. Awesome, Don. Well, thanks for coming

(01:02:05):
back on the show. That we miss anything?
No. No Absolutely. I wanna congratulate again on
277
is it...
No. I think we're at 84
sure...
I think that's the 1 I just posted.
So... Yeah. They just pile up, like... Fucking
driftwood, man. Like So... Yeah. I can't keep
up with how many there are 10:10 years

(01:02:25):
ago. We went from episode 61. Now we're
here at 2 80 something.
So there was in the mint mint... In
the meantime, there was a normal baby, which
is now a normal toddler. I would imagine.
Yeah. No. No. He's 8. If a normal.
8 year old. So a lot has happened
in 10 years. And I I bought 2
houses. Bought 1 sold 1 bought another 1.

(01:02:46):
Got married. I got married in there.
You yeah, I had a kid.
Yeah. It's kinda wild that it's it's just
marches is on.
It it it blows my mind. I'm sure,
like, the... Like, you've been talking about on
this podcast the this kinda
continued interest and and people coming out of
the blue even 10 years after your book
was written and is it's just kind of

(01:03:08):
it's fun and and
yeah, it it makes you feel like he...
You did something good. Yeah. And you too.
You're you're doing great. Things for the climbing
community. So appreciate how you doing and it's
been absolute fun catching up after after 10
years.
Thanks

(01:03:37):
Alright. Folks. Thanks for listening Thanks Don for
coming back on the show,
and thanks for being there 10 years ago
when people were pretty skeptical about what I
was up to. Thanks you can find out
more about the whole vertical mine seen.
The things going on,
get the book. Whatever you wanna do, follow
Don in the vertical mind at inside the

(01:03:58):
vertical mind over there at Instagram. That's the
best launching point.
Okay. Gonna load this 1
spit it out there and head the lander.
So Hope I see you up there, and,
of course, check your knots.

(01:04:30):
Yeah So what's your name? John Mid.
And
what do you do?
Well, right now, I'm back into the cartilage
edge design business.
I've actually... Just in the last 6 months.
I've been working on this new portal edge.
I used to do that back in the,
eighties and nineties. And those were used big
wall climber all over the world to do
new routes. Big walls are walls that are

(01:04:52):
maybe 300 to 1500 meters high, by and
there big rock faces that you can't really
climb in a day because they're too technical
and too big. So portal edge is something
that you can use to sleep, for those
nights that you're up on the wall.
19 92, I climbed Great Triangle tower, which
is a probably the biggest big wall of
the world for in Pakistan in the care

(01:05:13):
quorum. And we we climbed the steepest and
biggest phase of that,
in 18 days. We spent 15 days climbing
up. And 3 days to descending the face.