July 7, 2025 • 57 mins
Salon owner and international educator @chelseavonnejames shares her journey from troubled youth to successful hairdresser. We discuss the evolution of her approach to her career, and how fear can be a helpful guide in making big decisions when used correctly.
This Week's Topics:
• Chelsea's Journey into Hairdressing
• Overcoming Challenges in Hair School
• Finding Passion and Purpose in Hairdressing
• Current Endeavors and Future Aspirations
• Finding Authenticity and Freedom
• Navigating Brand Relationships
• Evolving Perspectives on Fear
• Navigating Difficult Conversations
• The Importance of Embracing 'Messiness'
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Yeah, which means we're starting the episode with clapping Donovan out.
For the listeners, Donovan jumps on here before every episode and he tells our guests howit works.
because we use this platform and it's new for most of our guests.
So thank you to Donovan for doing that.
(00:21):
And Donovan reminded me of all the media that I have at my fingertips, like clappingsounds.
Yeah.
And then Chelsea has some good ideas of things that I should have, like fart noises, likewhistle sounds.
And I searched for such files, but I couldn't find them.
(00:43):
So we're going to do that.
Yeah.
Boo.
We're going to do that after the episode.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's got to be, there's got to be better ones.
All I have is drum joke.
Okay.
Hold on.
Hang tight.
Mmm, I made it out.
(01:05):
clapping, laughing, and other things.
So it's not enough.
A few other things.
You know, there's like the theme song to the platform that I'm using, which of coursenobody cares about and things like that.
All right, Chelsea Von James.
So nice to meet you here on the podcast.
(01:25):
Thank you so much for having me.
So I've learned one thing already.
We haven't even started talking yet, but I learned that she's into birds.
Yeah, I'm in my elder era.
And yeah, the older I get, I don't know, you just like notice I'm all into the squirrelsand the birds and I'm like, oh, so cute.
(01:47):
Look at him go.
at the beginning of life when you're a baby and at the end of life when we're old like youand me.
Yeah, you just get fascinated.
I'm like, wow, that's such a neat marking.
Look at the yellow-breasted finch or whatever.
I don't know, it's so fun.
why is there a yellow mark on its chest?
That's so weird.
(02:07):
Probably has some uh, what's the word evolutionary benefit, right?
Like it it it
dance and there's so much, it's great.
Right, like it's able to reproduce because the yellow thing is attractive to other finchbirds.
I'm obsessed with nature and its ways.
(02:28):
And it just gets more interesting the older I get.
I'm like, yes.
Totally, I know I'm totally into that.
I'm the same.
When I had kids, my kids are now 12 and 14.
When I had kids, there was a period of time, three or four years, where they are obsessedwith nature.
And it's so fun to go out there and they can spend half an hour with a twig and it's themost fascinating thing for them.
(02:54):
It's the deal.
I'm in my wholesome era.
Like the older I get, I'm just like, oh yes, like cross stitching, so into it.
you're a quilter?
Like I'm such a fan of like any hobby.
I don't know.
It's the wholesome era.
We have somebody here at Salon Republic in the office who's into woodworking.
(03:17):
Here for it.
I'm like, show me everything.
Oh my god.
is what he does when he goes home.
He supposedly has a family, but he seems to spend most of his time in his woodworking inthe garage.
And he makes staffs and uh walking sticks and small boxes.
(03:40):
I would like follow that Instagram account you know
yeah, I don't think he has one.
All right, so let's get down to business.
So Chelsea, it's great to meet you.
I'm gonna introduce you for those listeners, probably a few listeners who don't know whoyou are.
You're a Denver hairdresser, you work behind the chair at your salon, but you're also aninternational educator.
(04:02):
And we're gonna talk all about that.
uh First, let's talk about just how you got into this business.
Where are you from?
So I'm from Denver.
I was born here.
Lived a lot of places.
I um, grew up pretty poor and so I didn't really know about hair.
It was never on my radar.
(04:23):
I was like a drug addict, naughty kid, got expelled from high school, went to an expulsionschool, graduated.
It's like a, kinda like a fake school.
And there was like 60 kids.
Yeah, we were called the Manor Mules.
(04:44):
And I just like sold drugs and got through it.
You go like four hours a day.
We would like color.
You had to have a job.
I moved out when I was 15 and then realized I didn't have a future because I didn't learnanything.
I mean, I did learn some business skills in the selling of said drugs.
(05:07):
But I did the drugs and so it wasn't very good for business.
And I ended up joining the military.
So I was in the United States Army for like, yeah, I was a Patriot missile launcher.
And then I got out three years later and I was kind of a mess.
(05:30):
And then I went to rehab.
And then I really didn't know, so like Patriot missile launcher doesn't really transfer toanything civilian.
So I didn't, it was like a whole new fresh start.
I think I was 21 when I got sober.
And I was working at...
(05:51):
Yeah, post-military.
I had to like live in a halfway house and do all the things.
And then I moved back to Denver to like make amends to my family and do try to stay sober.
And I worked at DirecTV and I was like, I'm a terrible employee.
I just, it's not like a good match for me.
(06:13):
And so I was on the verge of getting fired.
And it was so, I lived with this dude in his basement and he was like a fashion stylist,which I didn't even know what that was.
and he had some show and he needed models, like whatever model canceled.
And so he was like, do you have any friends that could help?
(06:34):
At first I was like, no, dude.
And he's like, I'll take money off your rent.
And I was like really hard up and I was like, all right, I'll do it.
And so I like go to this hair show or whatever fashion show and I'm the model.
And I had a friend, like this gay boy that came to and was a model.
and he had like a date in the audience and they did his hair, he had a receding hairlineand he was like, you have to fix it.
(06:58):
so I just like messed with his hair and he's like, this is your thing.
And I was like, what?
He's like, hair.
And I was like, like I had been to great clips and I was like, no, I'm good, dude.
And then, I...
was the first time that you ever put your hands in somebody else's hair?
(07:18):
Holy shit, okay.
I mean like in that manner.
Right.
Light.
Yeah, but this is not the typical story where you were doing your girlfriend's hair in thebathroom before prom.
Nope, never.
Like I could care less.
And so then he was like, no, I'm telling you.
(07:40):
And he took me to a salon.
And it was weird because I was going through this like personal development program andthey were like, it was like all about manifestation and visualization.
And so they were like, you just need to think of the core things on what you want yourlife to look like.
And I was like, man, all I had was like, make a lot of money, like smile and laugh, beable to wear whatever I want, um and maybe listen to music, you know, like this is a long
(08:13):
time ago, and like be able to be gay and free about that.
And so I remember, like I was doing this morning visualization about that, and that's allI had, you know, so just picture myself like collecting money and laughing and like having
fun.
Yeah.
I walked into his friend's salon and I was like, oh my god, like it was music and likeeveryone was happy and I was like, wait what?
(08:39):
Like I had never been to a nice salon.
So then I joined hair school.
Yeah.
Just like that and I figured like I really wasn't I was like I mean how many ways can youcut and color hair like?
This will be a fine Hustle like it's better than tech support at DirecTV.
Like is it plugged in?
know?
Yeah, it was the worst and then yeah, I got through hair school and
(09:08):
Because I'm in recovery, I like met somebody that was really successful also in recoveryand I assisted them and they were an educator for a brand and he taught me everything and
he's incredible.
And then I was like, wait, how much do you get paid for like a haircut?
You know, it was a really fancy salon.
(09:28):
And it just changed my whole life.
I was still like really hood rat and kind of ghetto.
I was like, $50 for shampoo?
Like, who are these people, you know?
But I got into education really early and started working with L'Oreal Professional.
And I was with them, like worked my way up as an educator for 10 years and I becameinternational.
(09:55):
And then started a salon and...
Um, yeah, done a lot of things.
I've won Naha, lot of things like that.
So it's been, I think like what's amazing is it's endless.
Like the opportunities in the industry.
I love it so much.
(10:15):
Yeah.
So when you were in hair school, so I'm, you know, I'm hearing that you didn't likestructure and all that stuff.
Totally get it.
With hair school, did you struggle with the boundaries and showing up on time and readingthe books and stuff?
(10:36):
So, hair school was, I'm a hustler, so like what, and I had to pay for it myself.
um So I had, I was cleaning rich people's houses, and so I would go, I went to like a justaverage hair school, it was called Emily Griffith.
(10:57):
Like people are like smoking weed on the steps, you know, when you go in for like thebarber, it was just a trade school.
And so I'd go in and I would like punch the card.
And then I had a whole hustle where I would like pay people like 10 bucks to like roll myperms.
And then I would go clean houses, come back.
Because like I knew, like I didn't want to do nails.
(11:19):
um I like tried it.
I would try little things.
So yeah, I just like got through it.
um And it was fine.
Yeah, okay.
hair schools nowadays, it's so different.
um But yeah, like that was my, and I really liked certain aspects of it, but I wasn't atall in a place where I was like, this is gonna be my life, ever.
(11:49):
No.
sure if this was the right path.
I can make enough money where I don't have to live in this guy's basement, you know?
And I don't hate my life, but we'll see.
I was like, I had no idea.
Before that, the only thing I could think of I wanted to be was a rock star.
(12:11):
And so I just took the other side of the lifestyle.
I loved music, and so was like, that would be fun.
But yeah, mean that didn't work out because I didn't have discipline or you know, was justbusy with the fun part of it.
Yeah, and I didn't, I really didn't get like an education.
(12:32):
So when I got sober, everything was very new to me.
Like the whole world.
Like I was like, my God, like looking at all these different categories and I'm interestedin everything.
So I was just like, oh hair, like.
I felt, I struggled with like some of the superficial aspects of that.
(12:54):
I would see some of the other aspects that are really cool, but I also think likesociety's weird in that regard where we put so much on like the way that we look and it
gets all twisted.
But I did, I loved the creativity.
I loved, like I loved it and I was good at it and so.
(13:18):
I don't think I seriously considered it until I met my mentor.
And like just even the way like he stood and he cut and he had this like boyfriend andthey would go to South Africa and like he had this amazing life and I was like, and then I
would like the relationships that with the clients and watching over time like.
(13:41):
you're such a part of their life.
And I was like, I, whoa, that's cool.
Like that matters to me.
And it just slowly like sucked me in.
And then with the education side, like I loved connecting.
I realized hairdressers are such a great breed of human beings.
Like they're, they're funny.
(14:02):
Most of the time they're loving, they're service-based, like they're interesting.
And so I really liked hanging out with other hairdressers.
um
and sharing the things that helped me.
And then I'm a business, I'm like an entrepreneur kid.
But everything is kind of that, like it's all sprung out of need.
(14:25):
Like I was working for L'Oreal so I couldn't work at a regular commission salon.
And so then I was like, well, I'll just open a salon where it can be like cool.
And then it's been the same with like my business model and just figuring out like.
what I don't like about it and then trying to like make it something I do like.
(14:47):
Yeah.
I mean, kind of a natural way to do it.
And it makes a lot of sense when you talk about it.
But I am going back in your story as you've connected all the dots.
And the first dot was when your kind of quasi roommate sounding guy in the basement waslike, come to the show.
(15:13):
And you were like, no, I don't want to go to the show.
And so what if you hadn't gone to the show?
What do you think you would have found in life?
Like this is the quintessential question.
If you weren't doing this, what would you be doing?
Right.
And if, so if you, if you think back to that inflection point, I'm to use a fancy word.
(15:34):
Um, what, do you think?
Well, there is there something else out there?
Do you think maybe that you would have found that's kind of similar or you think you wouldhave just kept kind of.
floating around.
You know, I like almost everything.
I'm like literally interested in almost everything.
(15:58):
And it's been really cool to like explore all the different facets of that.
I am positive, like I'm an entrepreneur.
I love business, I love...
adding value and so I think that I can be successful inside of any category.
I'm really diligent, I'm a learner and I understand the importance of adding value.
(16:25):
I would probably like...
create videos of some kind, maybe I would have gotten into like tattoo stuff.
Sometimes I think I would have gotten into finance because I'm like interested in cryptoor like technology or AI or you know like I just I love brain science like I I think that
I would have just like picked a different thing and gone on.
(16:49):
hard part is finding something that you cared about, right?
Like I think about, listening to you and I'm thinking about my own the way I think aboutthings.
And I'm into lots of things too, until I'm not.
So it's like, I love the idea of crypto, for example, just throw, just pick something yousaid.
(17:09):
I love the idea of crypto, like I watch the Bitcoin price and stuff.
But do I really like the idea of spending a week solid going deep into the technology thatunderpins it?
And the answer to that is no.
You know, I'm not, that's not me.
I'm not going to go so deep that I really understand it to the point where I become atactician in that, you know, which is what you would need to be to actually do it for a
(17:39):
living, right?
So it's like finding the thing that you're into
that's that's that you you get excited about and you don't mind doing the work either youknow you don't mind that like there's not fun there's unfun stuff about everything the
other than maybe partying you know in a music scene but that doesn't pay very well right
(18:01):
But at the same time, like everything has shit.
And it's like, pick your shit.
So, you know, I mean, I am not, I had imposter syndrome really bad in this industry.
Like I am not the person who like sits, goes home at night and like thinks about hair.
(18:21):
Like I'm just not.
I'm really good at it.
Like I really care about it.
And I learned, I love learning different things and techniques and like I've spent so muchtime inside of that.
And that keeps it interesting for me, but it's cool because there's so many facets.
um
So many areas that you can go and grow.
(18:44):
And I think that's pretty much the same with every industry.
So I have an awareness of my strengths and aspects and things that I enjoy doing.
And then I just like do my best to lean in.
Like right now I'm creating like an online course.
like with this salon.
So my original salon was like a eight chair shop.
(19:05):
um And.
It was great.
It was full.
I was comfortable.
And actually, you helped me.
So COVID came and I was like, what is happening?
What is happening?
you know, we weren't allowed to work.
And then the government was like, yeah, and now there's capacity.
(19:28):
And so I started losing all these stylists because, you know, they need a double book andhelping them get sweets.
it was...
It was the most revolutionary time in my entire career where I was like, and I was workingso much.
Like I had a bunch of different education contracts, I was traveling all over teaching, Iwas like doing the most.
(19:51):
And then all of a sudden like, just it was all gone.
And...
It changed my whole life and that's like how I found you or like came upon you and I waslike this dude This dude, so you helped me a lot in that era and I appreciate like your
integrity in the way that you showed up and it empowered me in Lots of different ways thatI don't know if you'll ever know and maybe that's a conversation for a different day but
(20:18):
then Yeah, you thank you.
Yeah um
So anyway, after that, my lease was up and obviously I took a hard hit.
I mean, I'm crazy responsible and so I like saved the three to six months and like wasfine and didn't lose my business and whatever.
(20:38):
But I decided, like at first I was like, maybe I'd both rent.
Like, uh, slum ownership is like really a lot.
It's a lot.
And I was like kind of down and out too.
I like started painting in COVID and that was the most fun.
Like I was like became obsessed with it.
And then I looked at salons and it was the same thing where I was like, I just don't lovehow it feels.
(21:06):
um And I can't, so I got like an 18 chair salon and tripled my rent and like went down toDenver.
So that was a big overtaking and then like I was an idiot and didn't like it was analready working salon and I knew some of the people on Instagram that worked there and I
(21:30):
was like well there's no way they would work in a shithole but come to find out like thewater heater was too small and like the electric was like 15 amps versus 30 on a
double-sided station like it was just all the I made a big mistake so that was like aheavy thing
and it had been however many years and like the industry had changed.
(21:54):
Like I was in a weird like comfort zone and I realized like damn, I don't exist withoutInstagram.
And so then I was like, now I gotta figure this out and I did and I grew really fast andso now I like.
made this course or making this course on social media and doing like some keynotes andthat part of it's so creative and fun and I don't know like I just feel like there's a
(22:23):
million avenues in this industry it's so cool like you can literally be whatever you want
You can.
For all different personalities and all different phases of your career and everything andanything, it's wild.
It's wild.
You know, I think about the people I know in this industry and it's-
(22:45):
from the most creative, least responsible people who barely wake up in the morning all theway to suits, who are corporate types.
we're all in the hair industry and it's all part of the same thing.
And I think the industry needs all those different types of people to operate.
(23:06):
You mentioned like the water heater or whatever.
I mean, that's a lot of stuff I have to deal with and...
You know, got to the engineers and the construction people and then the city's like, no,you can't have a bigger water heater.
And you're like, well, how am I supposed to wash hair?
And they're like, well, it's the code.
And you're like, what the fuck?
Right.
(23:26):
And all the way down to making sure the clients are happy.
And, you know, it's.
multifaceted and I look back at this point and I'm just like, wow, I have been so manydifferent people and I've grown so much.
You know, like you have an idea of an area that you want to play in and you realize like,oh shit, I have so much to learn in order to get that.
(23:54):
And so I just think of all my eras, like, you know, I had the era where
I'm exploring what I want to be and I'm like, oh maybe I'm gonna be a celebrityhairdresser, maybe I want to be an editorial stylist.
And I would dabble in the different things and you have an idea of what it is and then youget in there and you're like, my god.
(24:16):
And even if you succeed at it, I've been able to pivot and be like, okay, and allow myselfto change and I think that is, that's such a gift with hair.
100%.
that at that level in many other industries.
Like, I think that's so awesome for us.
(24:37):
All right, so how are you splitting your time these days?
How many days behind the chair and how many days on the road?
So one to two a week behind the chair.
um The road is different every month, it depends.
um And then, you know, the online class.
That's such an interesting thing, I mean, same thing.
(25:01):
You are envisioning something, and then you realize, this is a whole thing.
mean, same with Instagram.
You're like, well, I could do that.
And then you're like, oh, shit, it's a whole thing that I've got to figure out.
And so with the...
class, I've been working really hard on making that and I feel embarrassed like showing upas a talking head and I think the whole purpose is to like teach all the principles that
(25:29):
work the entire time so it's like a and I can't just do something half measured and soit's you know taken way longer than I thought.
And again, huge learning curve with like different softwares and marketing and likethere's just so many.
So I'm spending, I'm in a learning curve right now.
(25:50):
And it's also really fun.
Like I'm in my elder era where I feel like I'm no longer, I think.
as you are like growing up in the industry, you're trying different things on and you'realso a little bit more nervous and like figuring out also who you are.
And I think I like at times because I was like affiliated with brands, you kind of get putin a box and like you can't cuss or you can't certain humor or like.
(26:25):
opinion whatever and now i'm just in my era
there's people on the side watching, making sure you don't say anything you're notsupposed to say.
Yes, and there's like a weird, I don't know, I'm in my like empowered elder era where I'mlike, finally I've worked so hard and I've built an audience and I have an amazing
(26:48):
business and so now I'm like more in my fun era where I can like teach the way that Iwould want to be taught, like I want to be entertained the entire time but I want to
learn, like give me the goods.
And so I'm having a lot of fun.
I'm like in my freedom, like
And even, like, I just got a keynote thing.
(27:09):
There's, a Lyft event that I did and another one coming up for Shorts Cof in Nashville.
And they were like, just do whatever, like, it's your keynote.
And I'm, allowing myself to play and, like, be so authentic in a way that feels reallyfun.
(27:29):
awesome.
and I'm super proud of like, I don't know.
And it's like working.
So it's exciting like where the world's kind of at.
I think the influencer and the authenticity, like there's just a level of freedom andpermission and um that is inspiring the hell out of me.
(27:51):
Yeah.
So, you know, each week it's different with my time.
Yeah.
It's a it's something that I it almost feels like you have to earn the level that you werejust describing kind of the freedom to do what you want to do.
The trust that you've earned with Schwarzkopf or whoever is going to ask you to dowhatever you know that kind of stuff is earned.
(28:17):
I mean I've done enough podcasts.
with guys and girls who are, you know, kind of, uh, exclusively with a brand like L'Orealor another one when, you know, we, we show up together and there's like three people from
L'Oreal who are standing three feet off camera.
(28:40):
And I'm like, are you guys going to stand there the whole time?
You know, and Lori, I, I like L'Oreal, obviously they're the
500 800 pound gorilla in our industry.
I think they do a very good job of They work very hard.
They pay really close attention to what's going on.
They they tend to uh Change directions very quickly when they see things happening uhthey're constantly hitting me up, you know and wanting to come and You know meet me at one
(29:13):
of the salons and pick my brain and like what's happening on the ground and all this stuffand nobody else does that
You know, so I have to give them credit for that.
um And I think it's benefited them to a large degree, but it also is kind of annoying umwhen they create the boundaries.
And again, L'Oreal, I understand why you create the boundaries.
(29:35):
um have to, you know, anyone who has boundaries has to kind of enforce them.
But it's really nice when you earn
the trust from a brand like Schwarzkopf to be able to go up there and say what you want tosay.
um
for me, it was really hard to say no more and take the risk to know my worth.
(30:01):
And now I'm working with Hair Story as well, and they're incredible.
And there is a uh shift in it, and that's really nice.
There is an earn the right.
And now it's interesting because
As you get older, you really do realize what matters and it is in the details um where I'mlike, well, in what ways are you like actually supporting the hairdresser?
(30:29):
All brands say they support the hairdresser, but I'm like, what does it actually mean toyou?
Yeah, you should support the hairdresser because like we're the ones who pay your bills.
But like on the back end, there isn't actually that.
Yeah.
or they're only willing to do it in this bundle under this, and I'm like, I'm done withthat.
(30:51):
Then it's hard to be like, no, and only align yourself with brands you really feel likeare.
Cool.
uh
Yeah, no, totally.
This is reminding me of a movie that I saw on the airplane about Bob Dylan.
It's probably newish, a couple years old.
(31:13):
Have you seen this movie?
It's called...
um
Shit I'm forget it half of the listeners are like it's called you idiot uh But it'srelatively new ish and it's really good I forget the actor doesn't matter but all of this
is reminding me of kind of towards the end of the movie when Bob Dylan was kind ofevolving from the folk kind of early Bob Dylan to more of kind of a pop rock kind of Bob
(31:43):
Dylan and
All of a sudden, electric guitars and his music was changing.
And that's what was interesting him at the time.
He didn't want to keep doing the same folksies music.
So when he would go to these kind of uh legendary folk concerts that happened every year,they weren't happy with his new music.
(32:06):
And Johnny Cash in the movie, and this is probably true, this probably happened, JohnnyCash behind the scene,
behind the scenes, behind stage, um was kind of seeing this conflict that Bob was having.
Should I play my old stuff or should I play my new stuff and piss everybody off?
And Johnny Cash said, go track mud on somebody's carpet.
(32:32):
That's it, you know, and what's interesting is it's not about like
Just because I'm shifting or any of us shift, it's not about like the old being bad.
It's like about growth.
So it's cool to like be able to experience a level of neutrality through all of it andlike understand like we talked about before everything has shit and it's like what's your
(33:02):
shit?
Because obviously anytime that I'm trying to shift Bob with his music, there's gonna beshit.
And you're gonna have to rebuild and find the people that are interested in how you'reevolving and you have to do the work to get that.
But it doesn't take away from what you have done in the past and the greatness of that.
(33:22):
And that also had its pile of shit.
it's like, God, I just...
I feel like, I don't know how else to say it, it's elder era dude.
Yeah.
an evolution.
And of course, creative people are going to evolve in certain ways.
uh The movie is called A Complete Unknown.
(33:42):
It's really good.
Yeah.
Okay.
If you could go back and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you say?
Well, I was hammered at 18.
You could also choose another age, know, one that was kind of, you know, any inflectionpoints, 15, 16, whatever.
(34:07):
You know, I think I'm answering it this way because it's like in the theme of what we'vebeen discussing, but...
I look at my younger self and I did have self-imposed limitations on what was possible.
(34:36):
And I think a lot of people do and we disguise it as like be realistic.
But I wish I would have allowed myself to like really big
try things on.
(34:56):
I look at how I came from like a poverty place and so I think my consciousness was justvery fear-based and it kept me, it kept life hard for a long while.
um
(35:18):
So I don't know, I think I would just be like, it's okay and really beneficial.
Because I think now I understand that like every single one of us are the creator.
Like I think everything is real and everything is true.
(35:39):
Like that is whatever you think is true.
Yep.
like manifest it somehow, whatever it is, I don't care what you think, you create it.
And so that is something I wish I could have understood back then.
(36:00):
Because only God knows what could happen if I realized.
Everything was very like happening to me when I was younger.
Yeah.
I think it's very much human nature.
One of the best parts of having kids is that I see the way that a lot of humans grow upkind of in a natural state.
(36:26):
And it's very natural to default to fear, anxiety, state.
I think it's human nature.
And...
Of course, some people are more prone to it than others.
I've even heard and read that it can be genetic, but uh I see kids who are absolutelyfearless and I see my kids who are very fearful constantly.
(36:54):
And, you know, they're they're growing up in a comfortable environment.
And so I don't know.
It's there's a lot of DNA at work in there.
And so it's, I think of it as my job to try to inform them about things like what we'retalking about as early as possible.
(37:14):
And that, but that sounds great, but it's one thing for dad to sit there and say, are youmaking that decision because of fear?
Are you making it because of some good reason?
Because if it's because you're fearful about something, what Lucy is gonna say.
you know, when you show up to school or this or that, or you might fail, that's not a goodreason to do it.
(37:41):
You want to, you want to do it anyway.
Um, you know, and I explained this and they still don't get it.
I mean, the hope is that they eventually get it, but that's a very mature thing to absorband understand.
And
within my own evolution, think fear almost, and now for a lot of people, it's kind of likea bad word, where it's like something...
(38:14):
almost like shameful to feel, right?
Like, no, don't live from fear.
And I think over time I've really been able to change the relationship that I have withfear because I'm like, it is baked in at a DNA level.
Like, it is there for a reason and it is awesome.
And like, if we just give some space at looking at it like objectively where we're like,whoa, what are you actually trying to say?
(38:38):
um What stories am I like making up?
What is actually real and what can I know is genuinely true?
um And what you realize is like everything is kind of always both It's like there's reallyhigh potential and there's really scary potential I don't care what it is that you're
looking at it has both sides and it's baked in for a reason and so Once I like kind ofstarted to understand like the fear is for me
(39:07):
Like the fear is like the guide to the path.
As long as I'm willing to like not push it down, as long as I'm willing to like give it alittle room and space, they kind of like lay shit out on the table.
Everything started to change like very, where I kind of look forward.
I know when I start to feel afraid, I'm about to get like a key, like to the kingdom,right?
(39:29):
Whether it's like coming from an old story that I have to like unpack.
or it's a genuine reality and it's telling me like, that's a bad deal.
know, either way, like instead of looking at it as such a thing to like not exist, likedon't be afraid, it's become like a very close homie, kinda.
(39:52):
almost like a uh guest at the dinner party, right?
And you've got a number of guests at the dinner party and you don't want to not invitefear or at least you don't want to disinvite fear.
Fear can sit at the table and argue its case, but also at the table is optimism, right?
(40:13):
And ambition and things like that.
you let it be heard for a second, it quiets down.
You know, and it maybe starts eating.
Like, it's not so freaking loud.
I think when we, like, don't give it a level of validity or hear it out or give it space,that's when it, like, starts to take over and become consuming.
(40:38):
It's like, you know, everybody at the table's gotta be heard.
Yeah, I like that.
I like that a lot.
There's not when fear might be the the loudest one for the first couple minutes of thedinner conversation.
But then after, you know, optimism sitting right next to fear, let's say an optimism sitsthere and listens to fear and then responds.
(41:01):
And then you as the host is you're listening to the counterpoint.
You're like, wow, optimism's got a really good point, you know, and then you've got
ambition of sitting next to optimism and then they have something to say and then uh
what's crazy too is I realize like you can't have one without the other.
(41:24):
And so there is no like happiness without sadness.
Like if there's no contrast, it is the worst.
And that made me feel differently about everything too, where I was like, no, dude.
Bad days are baked in.
Like, if every day was a good day, there's no contrast in like, how boring would that be?
(41:47):
Like, you would never feel elation, right?
You would never feel like the opposites are like, part of the thing.
And I do think there's been a weird thing that...
I don't know if it's society or how it works, but for a long time I spent a lot of energytrying to like not feel anxiety, not feel fear, not feel negative, like not, you know, and
(42:13):
I was just like, no, no, no, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay, you know, and it's like, no,that's all part of the bundle.
Like it's, and that becomes, it just, it's a different game from that place.
Yeah.
You can't have a dinner party just with fear, but, you know, fear has to be part of thedinner party.
(42:36):
That's the deal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
it.
We got really philosophical, didn't we?
Look at us.
Amazing.
wait, Donovan, I didn't do that very well.
Hold on a second.
(42:57):
Look at that, I'm using the tools at my disposal.
Next level podcasting, what am I gonna say?
You know, after seven years, this is the kind of quality production you get.
Yes, you know that's wait till the fart noises come in
(43:17):
Yeah, Donovan, he's been tasked with finding fart noises and other things like that.
um So in the last three or four years, let's call it, you know, uh COVID, certainly duringand post COVID, certainly things have been very politically charged, right?
(43:37):
With the conversation kind of out there in the public and stuff.
And in the hair salon, of course, we have a lot of people coming in and out, clientssitting in the chair and stuff, and hairstyles have opinions, clients have opinions, and
most people, I think, do a pretty good job of moderating the more controversial things.
(44:02):
What's your opinion on political conversation in the salon?
Do you ever find yourself standing there and you got a client like just railing, know, proor con something that just sends you through the roof?
You know, it's so interesting, because it's like, as hairdressers, it's our job to, like,we hold a lot of space, we hold a lot of energy, and I think a lot of people make politics
(44:32):
really special, um no matter what side you're on, um and it's almost to the point whereit's like, identity and...
There are uncomfortable conversations, even when someone's talking about losing a lovedone or cancer and it's big emotions and I think the same thing is happening to people
(45:01):
politically with the way that they're perceiving reality.
And so at the shop...
how I look at it is like we're a really close team, we're a family, and like we're thereto provide an experience for sure.
And it is our job as the service provider and protector of the space to make sure thateverybody feels safe.
(45:27):
And so I trust my stylists if it is a heated, disruptive situation.
um that we contain it and handle it just because um that would be the same way that wewould treat any other issue like that.
(45:54):
It's like a high intensity issue, but at the same time, you know, we're spaceholders.
And so I think it's a fine line to walk where
Sometimes like people do just want to feel heard um And if they can do so respectfully Ithink something that's like causing a massive divide is the inability to talk about things
(46:23):
and so it's it's It's a really fine line and I it is my personal hope that we get back toa place where we can actually talk um
because the division is really a...
creating a lot of harm, I think and um It's a tough thing to navigate and sometimes doesneed to be like shut down if someone's being inappropriate but they will be shut down if
(46:53):
they're being inappropriate about anything and so Yeah, I don't know.
It's tough.
I but I I don't think it's my place to like Tell people what to put in their body.
I don't think it's my place to tell people what they can and can't talk about
So we just hold basic boundaries in terms of like respect.
(47:16):
And as long as that's met, like I'm really open.
Yeah, that's how.
you've ever had with a client in the chair?
Well, probably like COVID.
So people had really serious opinions on what is right and wrong.
And so for me as a business owner and a hairstylist, like it is not my business to tellpeople what to put in their body or not.
(47:46):
And so I have been like screamed at telling me that I'm killing people because I didn'tmandate them to do that.
Right.
Bye.
that's probably been like the hardest, most outrageous.
(48:07):
I mean, it was like the most, it was the most outrageous.
And also like, hey, I appreciate like the passion, you know, and like you're no longerwelcome here and it's a bummer.
But at the same time, like I...
(48:28):
Heart is like such a spectrum.
Cause like I'm really grateful for that experience.
I think, you know, on the flip side, watching, like I do a lot of families and I watcheverybody grow up and I, you know, the head of the family got sick and I was like,
(48:50):
there for all of the announcements and watching the decline and helping them come in in awheelchair and then decorating them in the casket.
And so it's such a interesting thing to say hard, but you know, kind of circling back tolike what we said before.
I think like the depth and the contrast in experiences is
(49:16):
also necessary and makes for like a really rich, robust, deep life.
yeah, I agree with that.
I love how you framed it at the end.
I think that's 100 % right.
If you could wave a wand and change anything about the industry, what would it be?
(49:36):
Oh wow, um, off the cuff?
Just like, it would be cool to have no tacks on tips.
Like that'd be pretty sweet.
Like I'm here for that.
I'm very, yeah, like that'd be cool.
(49:58):
I'm very like...
Like I said, like I'm here for the contrast and I think like problems are great becauselike problems allow for space for innovation.
Like it's an opportunity.
And so I'm really, you know, I have things that like,
I'll find myself saying as I get older where I'm like, these kids ain't got no work ethicor whatever my shit is.
(50:22):
But I'm also like that kind of stuff has caused me to innovate where I'm like, damn, whatkind of business model could I have?
Like if they're all about like work life balance, like who the hell am I to judge aboutthat?
And so I'm like, damn, what could I do to create a win-win?
You know, so I'm very like.
Fuck a wand, right?
Like the wand is in your like every day and like how you kind of alchemize yourperspective, I think.
(50:50):
So...
Yeah.
uh you've got a permanent want.
That's right, that's right.
I'm like, what do you mean?
Yeah.
Do you have any horror stories you want to tell us?
Yeah, it could be from you on one of your clients.
could be, you know, one of your stylists in the salon that you saw something horriblehappen.
(51:14):
It could be anything.
You know, I think like, something that was horrible for me is like when I was in beautyschool and I was like, my dad was my first men's cut and that shit took me like four hours
first of all and like my hands were shaking and I like cut his fucking ear and it bled forlike
(51:39):
my god, that's...
like it was like the entire appointment.
He's like graying and it's like pink and so that was drama.
Yeah, and he's like, it's okay.
Like don't fucking worry about like he's all trying to encourage me and I'm just like,yeah.
Yeah, yeah, this is really cute.
(52:00):
Or I mean, I've I'm a horror story.
Like I've broken off my hair so many times.
You know.
um Yeah, I think.
Yeah, I'm the worst with that, cause I'm like, eh, it's just hair.
Well, yeah, but no, I'm in the Dadu and that one's awesome.
uh That one's amazing.
(52:21):
All right, any last words for the community?
No, I just, I'm really grateful to be in your sphere and be asked to be on here.
I think, I feel excited about where the industry is going in a big way.
(52:45):
And I think just like, don't be afraid to try shit.
Yeah, that was so key.
I've been trying to deliver that message in various forms over the years.
I find that I have the same self limitations.
uh And that's why I can speak to it so confidently because it's all made up.
(53:12):
It's all made up.
But of course, it becomes real once you start.
making it up.
It's like you make it up and then it becomes real.
This kind of like how you said it.
so be
and I think like, inside of the expectation idea or like whatever you think is real, likewhat I'm learning, I feel like that I'm almost at a level of adopting as a belief, which
(53:37):
I'm very like, weird about saying, I believe, you know?
But it's just like, if you are trying something new, like you're gonna fail.
Like you're just gonna.
And so like normalizing messiness and like allowing, like we talked about, that contrastto be part of your story.
(54:03):
You know, like a messy, originally very messy drug addict-y nightmare.
And I have an incredible like life and community and career and the...
the amount of like gratitude and happiness and joy and money and like things that I get toexperience because it was so that I wouldn't trade for the world.
(54:33):
And so, you know, on the hard days or when shit sucks, just know like that's yourcontrast.
It's helped me like be less limited, I guess, and be down to like
be a mess and not know and like try again.
(54:56):
Totally, I love it.
Well, we're gonna leave it there.
I can't add any more to that.
This was awesome, Chelsea, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you.
Yeah, which means we're starting the episode with clapping Donovan out.
For the listeners, Donovan jumps on here before every episode and he tells our guests howit works.
because we use this platform and it's new for most of our guests.
So thank you to Donovan for doing that.
(00:21):
And Donovan reminded me of all the media that I have at my fingertips, like clappingsounds.
Yeah.
And then Chelsea has some good ideas of things that I should have, like fart noises, likewhistle sounds.
And I searched for such files, but I couldn't find them.
(00:43):
So we're going to do that.
Yeah.
Boo.
We're going to do that after the episode.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's got to be, there's got to be better ones.
All I have is drum joke.
Okay.
Hold on.
Hang tight.
Mmm, I made it out.
(01:05):
clapping, laughing, and other things.
So it's not enough.
A few other things.
You know, there's like the theme song to the platform that I'm using, which of coursenobody cares about and things like that.
All right, Chelsea Von James.
So nice to meet you here on the podcast.
(01:25):
Thank you so much for having me.
So I've learned one thing already.
We haven't even started talking yet, but I learned that she's into birds.
Yeah, I'm in my elder era.
And yeah, the older I get, I don't know, you just like notice I'm all into the squirrelsand the birds and I'm like, oh, so cute.
(01:47):
Look at him go.
at the beginning of life when you're a baby and at the end of life when we're old like youand me.
Yeah, you just get fascinated.
I'm like, wow, that's such a neat marking.
Look at the yellow-breasted finch or whatever.
I don't know, it's so fun.
why is there a yellow mark on its chest?
That's so weird.
(02:07):
Probably has some uh, what's the word evolutionary benefit, right?
Like it it it
dance and there's so much, it's great.
Right, like it's able to reproduce because the yellow thing is attractive to other finchbirds.
I'm obsessed with nature and its ways.
(02:28):
And it just gets more interesting the older I get.
I'm like, yes.
Totally, I know I'm totally into that.
I'm the same.
When I had kids, my kids are now 12 and 14.
When I had kids, there was a period of time, three or four years, where they are obsessedwith nature.
And it's so fun to go out there and they can spend half an hour with a twig and it's themost fascinating thing for them.
(02:54):
It's the deal.
I'm in my wholesome era.
Like the older I get, I'm just like, oh yes, like cross stitching, so into it.
you're a quilter?
Like I'm such a fan of like any hobby.
I don't know.
It's the wholesome era.
We have somebody here at Salon Republic in the office who's into woodworking.
(03:17):
Here for it.
I'm like, show me everything.
Oh my god.
is what he does when he goes home.
He supposedly has a family, but he seems to spend most of his time in his woodworking inthe garage.
And he makes staffs and uh walking sticks and small boxes.
(03:40):
I would like follow that Instagram account you know
yeah, I don't think he has one.
All right, so let's get down to business.
So Chelsea, it's great to meet you.
I'm gonna introduce you for those listeners, probably a few listeners who don't know whoyou are.
You're a Denver hairdresser, you work behind the chair at your salon, but you're also aninternational educator.
(04:02):
And we're gonna talk all about that.
uh First, let's talk about just how you got into this business.
Where are you from?
So I'm from Denver.
I was born here.
Lived a lot of places.
I um, grew up pretty poor and so I didn't really know about hair.
It was never on my radar.
(04:23):
I was like a drug addict, naughty kid, got expelled from high school, went to an expulsionschool, graduated.
It's like a, kinda like a fake school.
And there was like 60 kids.
Yeah, we were called the Manor Mules.
(04:44):
And I just like sold drugs and got through it.
You go like four hours a day.
We would like color.
You had to have a job.
I moved out when I was 15 and then realized I didn't have a future because I didn't learnanything.
I mean, I did learn some business skills in the selling of said drugs.
(05:07):
But I did the drugs and so it wasn't very good for business.
And I ended up joining the military.
So I was in the United States Army for like, yeah, I was a Patriot missile launcher.
And then I got out three years later and I was kind of a mess.
(05:30):
And then I went to rehab.
And then I really didn't know, so like Patriot missile launcher doesn't really transfer toanything civilian.
So I didn't, it was like a whole new fresh start.
I think I was 21 when I got sober.
And I was working at...
(05:51):
Yeah, post-military.
I had to like live in a halfway house and do all the things.
And then I moved back to Denver to like make amends to my family and do try to stay sober.
And I worked at DirecTV and I was like, I'm a terrible employee.
I just, it's not like a good match for me.
(06:13):
And so I was on the verge of getting fired.
And it was so, I lived with this dude in his basement and he was like a fashion stylist,which I didn't even know what that was.
and he had some show and he needed models, like whatever model canceled.
And so he was like, do you have any friends that could help?
(06:34):
At first I was like, no, dude.
And he's like, I'll take money off your rent.
And I was like really hard up and I was like, all right, I'll do it.
And so I like go to this hair show or whatever fashion show and I'm the model.
And I had a friend, like this gay boy that came to and was a model.
and he had like a date in the audience and they did his hair, he had a receding hairlineand he was like, you have to fix it.
(06:58):
so I just like messed with his hair and he's like, this is your thing.
And I was like, what?
He's like, hair.
And I was like, like I had been to great clips and I was like, no, I'm good, dude.
And then, I...
was the first time that you ever put your hands in somebody else's hair?
(07:18):
Holy shit, okay.
I mean like in that manner.
Right.
Light.
Yeah, but this is not the typical story where you were doing your girlfriend's hair in thebathroom before prom.
Nope, never.
Like I could care less.
And so then he was like, no, I'm telling you.
(07:40):
And he took me to a salon.
And it was weird because I was going through this like personal development program andthey were like, it was like all about manifestation and visualization.
And so they were like, you just need to think of the core things on what you want yourlife to look like.
And I was like, man, all I had was like, make a lot of money, like smile and laugh, beable to wear whatever I want, um and maybe listen to music, you know, like this is a long
(08:13):
time ago, and like be able to be gay and free about that.
And so I remember, like I was doing this morning visualization about that, and that's allI had, you know, so just picture myself like collecting money and laughing and like having
fun.
Yeah.
I walked into his friend's salon and I was like, oh my god, like it was music and likeeveryone was happy and I was like, wait what?
(08:39):
Like I had never been to a nice salon.
So then I joined hair school.
Yeah.
Just like that and I figured like I really wasn't I was like I mean how many ways can youcut and color hair like?
This will be a fine Hustle like it's better than tech support at DirecTV.
Like is it plugged in?
know?
Yeah, it was the worst and then yeah, I got through hair school and
(09:08):
Because I'm in recovery, I like met somebody that was really successful also in recoveryand I assisted them and they were an educator for a brand and he taught me everything and
he's incredible.
And then I was like, wait, how much do you get paid for like a haircut?
You know, it was a really fancy salon.
(09:28):
And it just changed my whole life.
I was still like really hood rat and kind of ghetto.
I was like, $50 for shampoo?
Like, who are these people, you know?
But I got into education really early and started working with L'Oreal Professional.
And I was with them, like worked my way up as an educator for 10 years and I becameinternational.
(09:55):
And then started a salon and...
Um, yeah, done a lot of things.
I've won Naha, lot of things like that.
So it's been, I think like what's amazing is it's endless.
Like the opportunities in the industry.
I love it so much.
(10:15):
Yeah.
So when you were in hair school, so I'm, you know, I'm hearing that you didn't likestructure and all that stuff.
Totally get it.
With hair school, did you struggle with the boundaries and showing up on time and readingthe books and stuff?
(10:36):
So, hair school was, I'm a hustler, so like what, and I had to pay for it myself.
um So I had, I was cleaning rich people's houses, and so I would go, I went to like a justaverage hair school, it was called Emily Griffith.
(10:57):
Like people are like smoking weed on the steps, you know, when you go in for like thebarber, it was just a trade school.
And so I'd go in and I would like punch the card.
And then I had a whole hustle where I would like pay people like 10 bucks to like roll myperms.
And then I would go clean houses, come back.
Because like I knew, like I didn't want to do nails.
(11:19):
um I like tried it.
I would try little things.
So yeah, I just like got through it.
um And it was fine.
Yeah, okay.
hair schools nowadays, it's so different.
um But yeah, like that was my, and I really liked certain aspects of it, but I wasn't atall in a place where I was like, this is gonna be my life, ever.
(11:49):
No.
sure if this was the right path.
I can make enough money where I don't have to live in this guy's basement, you know?
And I don't hate my life, but we'll see.
I was like, I had no idea.
Before that, the only thing I could think of I wanted to be was a rock star.
(12:11):
And so I just took the other side of the lifestyle.
I loved music, and so was like, that would be fun.
But yeah, mean that didn't work out because I didn't have discipline or you know, was justbusy with the fun part of it.
Yeah, and I didn't, I really didn't get like an education.
(12:32):
So when I got sober, everything was very new to me.
Like the whole world.
Like I was like, my God, like looking at all these different categories and I'm interestedin everything.
So I was just like, oh hair, like.
I felt, I struggled with like some of the superficial aspects of that.
(12:54):
I would see some of the other aspects that are really cool, but I also think likesociety's weird in that regard where we put so much on like the way that we look and it
gets all twisted.
But I did, I loved the creativity.
I loved, like I loved it and I was good at it and so.
(13:18):
I don't think I seriously considered it until I met my mentor.
And like just even the way like he stood and he cut and he had this like boyfriend andthey would go to South Africa and like he had this amazing life and I was like, and then I
would like the relationships that with the clients and watching over time like.
(13:41):
you're such a part of their life.
And I was like, I, whoa, that's cool.
Like that matters to me.
And it just slowly like sucked me in.
And then with the education side, like I loved connecting.
I realized hairdressers are such a great breed of human beings.
Like they're, they're funny.
(14:02):
Most of the time they're loving, they're service-based, like they're interesting.
And so I really liked hanging out with other hairdressers.
um
and sharing the things that helped me.
And then I'm a business, I'm like an entrepreneur kid.
But everything is kind of that, like it's all sprung out of need.
(14:25):
Like I was working for L'Oreal so I couldn't work at a regular commission salon.
And so then I was like, well, I'll just open a salon where it can be like cool.
And then it's been the same with like my business model and just figuring out like.
what I don't like about it and then trying to like make it something I do like.
(14:47):
Yeah.
I mean, kind of a natural way to do it.
And it makes a lot of sense when you talk about it.
But I am going back in your story as you've connected all the dots.
And the first dot was when your kind of quasi roommate sounding guy in the basement waslike, come to the show.
(15:13):
And you were like, no, I don't want to go to the show.
And so what if you hadn't gone to the show?
What do you think you would have found in life?
Like this is the quintessential question.
If you weren't doing this, what would you be doing?
Right.
And if, so if you, if you think back to that inflection point, I'm to use a fancy word.
(15:34):
Um, what, do you think?
Well, there is there something else out there?
Do you think maybe that you would have found that's kind of similar or you think you wouldhave just kept kind of.
floating around.
You know, I like almost everything.
I'm like literally interested in almost everything.
(15:58):
And it's been really cool to like explore all the different facets of that.
I am positive, like I'm an entrepreneur.
I love business, I love...
adding value and so I think that I can be successful inside of any category.
I'm really diligent, I'm a learner and I understand the importance of adding value.
(16:25):
I would probably like...
create videos of some kind, maybe I would have gotten into like tattoo stuff.
Sometimes I think I would have gotten into finance because I'm like interested in cryptoor like technology or AI or you know like I just I love brain science like I I think that
I would have just like picked a different thing and gone on.
(16:49):
hard part is finding something that you cared about, right?
Like I think about, listening to you and I'm thinking about my own the way I think aboutthings.
And I'm into lots of things too, until I'm not.
So it's like, I love the idea of crypto, for example, just throw, just pick something yousaid.
(17:09):
I love the idea of crypto, like I watch the Bitcoin price and stuff.
But do I really like the idea of spending a week solid going deep into the technology thatunderpins it?
And the answer to that is no.
You know, I'm not, that's not me.
I'm not going to go so deep that I really understand it to the point where I become atactician in that, you know, which is what you would need to be to actually do it for a
(17:39):
living, right?
So it's like finding the thing that you're into
that's that's that you you get excited about and you don't mind doing the work either youknow you don't mind that like there's not fun there's unfun stuff about everything the
other than maybe partying you know in a music scene but that doesn't pay very well right
(18:01):
But at the same time, like everything has shit.
And it's like, pick your shit.
So, you know, I mean, I am not, I had imposter syndrome really bad in this industry.
Like I am not the person who like sits, goes home at night and like thinks about hair.
(18:21):
Like I'm just not.
I'm really good at it.
Like I really care about it.
And I learned, I love learning different things and techniques and like I've spent so muchtime inside of that.
And that keeps it interesting for me, but it's cool because there's so many facets.
um
So many areas that you can go and grow.
(18:44):
And I think that's pretty much the same with every industry.
So I have an awareness of my strengths and aspects and things that I enjoy doing.
And then I just like do my best to lean in.
Like right now I'm creating like an online course.
like with this salon.
So my original salon was like a eight chair shop.
(19:05):
um And.
It was great.
It was full.
I was comfortable.
And actually, you helped me.
So COVID came and I was like, what is happening?
What is happening?
you know, we weren't allowed to work.
And then the government was like, yeah, and now there's capacity.
(19:28):
And so I started losing all these stylists because, you know, they need a double book andhelping them get sweets.
it was...
It was the most revolutionary time in my entire career where I was like, and I was workingso much.
Like I had a bunch of different education contracts, I was traveling all over teaching, Iwas like doing the most.
(19:51):
And then all of a sudden like, just it was all gone.
And...
It changed my whole life and that's like how I found you or like came upon you and I waslike this dude This dude, so you helped me a lot in that era and I appreciate like your
integrity in the way that you showed up and it empowered me in Lots of different ways thatI don't know if you'll ever know and maybe that's a conversation for a different day but
(20:18):
then Yeah, you thank you.
Yeah um
So anyway, after that, my lease was up and obviously I took a hard hit.
I mean, I'm crazy responsible and so I like saved the three to six months and like wasfine and didn't lose my business and whatever.
(20:38):
But I decided, like at first I was like, maybe I'd both rent.
Like, uh, slum ownership is like really a lot.
It's a lot.
And I was like kind of down and out too.
I like started painting in COVID and that was the most fun.
Like I was like became obsessed with it.
And then I looked at salons and it was the same thing where I was like, I just don't lovehow it feels.
(21:06):
um And I can't, so I got like an 18 chair salon and tripled my rent and like went down toDenver.
So that was a big overtaking and then like I was an idiot and didn't like it was analready working salon and I knew some of the people on Instagram that worked there and I
(21:30):
was like well there's no way they would work in a shithole but come to find out like thewater heater was too small and like the electric was like 15 amps versus 30 on a
double-sided station like it was just all the I made a big mistake so that was like aheavy thing
and it had been however many years and like the industry had changed.
(21:54):
Like I was in a weird like comfort zone and I realized like damn, I don't exist withoutInstagram.
And so then I was like, now I gotta figure this out and I did and I grew really fast andso now I like.
made this course or making this course on social media and doing like some keynotes andthat part of it's so creative and fun and I don't know like I just feel like there's a
(22:23):
million avenues in this industry it's so cool like you can literally be whatever you want
You can.
For all different personalities and all different phases of your career and everything andanything, it's wild.
It's wild.
You know, I think about the people I know in this industry and it's-
(22:45):
from the most creative, least responsible people who barely wake up in the morning all theway to suits, who are corporate types.
we're all in the hair industry and it's all part of the same thing.
And I think the industry needs all those different types of people to operate.
(23:06):
You mentioned like the water heater or whatever.
I mean, that's a lot of stuff I have to deal with and...
You know, got to the engineers and the construction people and then the city's like, no,you can't have a bigger water heater.
And you're like, well, how am I supposed to wash hair?
And they're like, well, it's the code.
And you're like, what the fuck?
Right.
(23:26):
And all the way down to making sure the clients are happy.
And, you know, it's.
multifaceted and I look back at this point and I'm just like, wow, I have been so manydifferent people and I've grown so much.
You know, like you have an idea of an area that you want to play in and you realize like,oh shit, I have so much to learn in order to get that.
(23:54):
And so I just think of all my eras, like, you know, I had the era where
I'm exploring what I want to be and I'm like, oh maybe I'm gonna be a celebrityhairdresser, maybe I want to be an editorial stylist.
And I would dabble in the different things and you have an idea of what it is and then youget in there and you're like, my god.
(24:16):
And even if you succeed at it, I've been able to pivot and be like, okay, and allow myselfto change and I think that is, that's such a gift with hair.
100%.
that at that level in many other industries.
Like, I think that's so awesome for us.
(24:37):
All right, so how are you splitting your time these days?
How many days behind the chair and how many days on the road?
So one to two a week behind the chair.
um The road is different every month, it depends.
um And then, you know, the online class.
That's such an interesting thing, I mean, same thing.
(25:01):
You are envisioning something, and then you realize, this is a whole thing.
mean, same with Instagram.
You're like, well, I could do that.
And then you're like, oh, shit, it's a whole thing that I've got to figure out.
And so with the...
class, I've been working really hard on making that and I feel embarrassed like showing upas a talking head and I think the whole purpose is to like teach all the principles that
(25:29):
work the entire time so it's like a and I can't just do something half measured and soit's you know taken way longer than I thought.
And again, huge learning curve with like different softwares and marketing and likethere's just so many.
So I'm spending, I'm in a learning curve right now.
(25:50):
And it's also really fun.
Like I'm in my elder era where I feel like I'm no longer, I think.
as you are like growing up in the industry, you're trying different things on and you'realso a little bit more nervous and like figuring out also who you are.
And I think I like at times because I was like affiliated with brands, you kind of get putin a box and like you can't cuss or you can't certain humor or like.
(26:25):
opinion whatever and now i'm just in my era
there's people on the side watching, making sure you don't say anything you're notsupposed to say.
Yes, and there's like a weird, I don't know, I'm in my like empowered elder era where I'mlike, finally I've worked so hard and I've built an audience and I have an amazing
(26:48):
business and so now I'm like more in my fun era where I can like teach the way that Iwould want to be taught, like I want to be entertained the entire time but I want to
learn, like give me the goods.
And so I'm having a lot of fun.
I'm like in my freedom, like
And even, like, I just got a keynote thing.
(27:09):
There's, a Lyft event that I did and another one coming up for Shorts Cof in Nashville.
And they were like, just do whatever, like, it's your keynote.
And I'm, allowing myself to play and, like, be so authentic in a way that feels reallyfun.
(27:29):
awesome.
and I'm super proud of like, I don't know.
And it's like working.
So it's exciting like where the world's kind of at.
I think the influencer and the authenticity, like there's just a level of freedom andpermission and um that is inspiring the hell out of me.
(27:51):
Yeah.
So, you know, each week it's different with my time.
Yeah.
It's a it's something that I it almost feels like you have to earn the level that you werejust describing kind of the freedom to do what you want to do.
The trust that you've earned with Schwarzkopf or whoever is going to ask you to dowhatever you know that kind of stuff is earned.
(28:17):
I mean I've done enough podcasts.
with guys and girls who are, you know, kind of, uh, exclusively with a brand like L'Orealor another one when, you know, we, we show up together and there's like three people from
L'Oreal who are standing three feet off camera.
(28:40):
And I'm like, are you guys going to stand there the whole time?
You know, and Lori, I, I like L'Oreal, obviously they're the
500 800 pound gorilla in our industry.
I think they do a very good job of They work very hard.
They pay really close attention to what's going on.
They they tend to uh Change directions very quickly when they see things happening uhthey're constantly hitting me up, you know and wanting to come and You know meet me at one
(29:13):
of the salons and pick my brain and like what's happening on the ground and all this stuffand nobody else does that
You know, so I have to give them credit for that.
um And I think it's benefited them to a large degree, but it also is kind of annoying umwhen they create the boundaries.
And again, L'Oreal, I understand why you create the boundaries.
(29:35):
um have to, you know, anyone who has boundaries has to kind of enforce them.
But it's really nice when you earn
the trust from a brand like Schwarzkopf to be able to go up there and say what you want tosay.
um
for me, it was really hard to say no more and take the risk to know my worth.
(30:01):
And now I'm working with Hair Story as well, and they're incredible.
And there is a uh shift in it, and that's really nice.
There is an earn the right.
And now it's interesting because
As you get older, you really do realize what matters and it is in the details um where I'mlike, well, in what ways are you like actually supporting the hairdresser?
(30:29):
All brands say they support the hairdresser, but I'm like, what does it actually mean toyou?
Yeah, you should support the hairdresser because like we're the ones who pay your bills.
But like on the back end, there isn't actually that.
Yeah.
or they're only willing to do it in this bundle under this, and I'm like, I'm done withthat.
(30:51):
Then it's hard to be like, no, and only align yourself with brands you really feel likeare.
Cool.
uh
Yeah, no, totally.
This is reminding me of a movie that I saw on the airplane about Bob Dylan.
It's probably newish, a couple years old.
(31:13):
Have you seen this movie?
It's called...
um
Shit I'm forget it half of the listeners are like it's called you idiot uh But it'srelatively new ish and it's really good I forget the actor doesn't matter but all of this
is reminding me of kind of towards the end of the movie when Bob Dylan was kind ofevolving from the folk kind of early Bob Dylan to more of kind of a pop rock kind of Bob
(31:43):
Dylan and
All of a sudden, electric guitars and his music was changing.
And that's what was interesting him at the time.
He didn't want to keep doing the same folksies music.
So when he would go to these kind of uh legendary folk concerts that happened every year,they weren't happy with his new music.
(32:06):
And Johnny Cash in the movie, and this is probably true, this probably happened, JohnnyCash behind the scene,
behind the scenes, behind stage, um was kind of seeing this conflict that Bob was having.
Should I play my old stuff or should I play my new stuff and piss everybody off?
And Johnny Cash said, go track mud on somebody's carpet.
(32:32):
That's it, you know, and what's interesting is it's not about like
Just because I'm shifting or any of us shift, it's not about like the old being bad.
It's like about growth.
So it's cool to like be able to experience a level of neutrality through all of it andlike understand like we talked about before everything has shit and it's like what's your
(33:02):
shit?
Because obviously anytime that I'm trying to shift Bob with his music, there's gonna beshit.
And you're gonna have to rebuild and find the people that are interested in how you'reevolving and you have to do the work to get that.
But it doesn't take away from what you have done in the past and the greatness of that.
(33:22):
And that also had its pile of shit.
it's like, God, I just...
I feel like, I don't know how else to say it, it's elder era dude.
Yeah.
an evolution.
And of course, creative people are going to evolve in certain ways.
uh The movie is called A Complete Unknown.
(33:42):
It's really good.
Yeah.
Okay.
If you could go back and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you say?
Well, I was hammered at 18.
You could also choose another age, know, one that was kind of, you know, any inflectionpoints, 15, 16, whatever.
(34:07):
You know, I think I'm answering it this way because it's like in the theme of what we'vebeen discussing, but...
I look at my younger self and I did have self-imposed limitations on what was possible.
(34:36):
And I think a lot of people do and we disguise it as like be realistic.
But I wish I would have allowed myself to like really big
try things on.
(34:56):
I look at how I came from like a poverty place and so I think my consciousness was justvery fear-based and it kept me, it kept life hard for a long while.
um
(35:18):
So I don't know, I think I would just be like, it's okay and really beneficial.
Because I think now I understand that like every single one of us are the creator.
Like I think everything is real and everything is true.
(35:39):
Like that is whatever you think is true.
Yep.
like manifest it somehow, whatever it is, I don't care what you think, you create it.
And so that is something I wish I could have understood back then.
(36:00):
Because only God knows what could happen if I realized.
Everything was very like happening to me when I was younger.
Yeah.
I think it's very much human nature.
One of the best parts of having kids is that I see the way that a lot of humans grow upkind of in a natural state.
(36:26):
And it's very natural to default to fear, anxiety, state.
I think it's human nature.
And...
Of course, some people are more prone to it than others.
I've even heard and read that it can be genetic, but uh I see kids who are absolutelyfearless and I see my kids who are very fearful constantly.
(36:54):
And, you know, they're they're growing up in a comfortable environment.
And so I don't know.
It's there's a lot of DNA at work in there.
And so it's, I think of it as my job to try to inform them about things like what we'retalking about as early as possible.
(37:14):
And that, but that sounds great, but it's one thing for dad to sit there and say, are youmaking that decision because of fear?
Are you making it because of some good reason?
Because if it's because you're fearful about something, what Lucy is gonna say.
you know, when you show up to school or this or that, or you might fail, that's not a goodreason to do it.
(37:41):
You want to, you want to do it anyway.
Um, you know, and I explained this and they still don't get it.
I mean, the hope is that they eventually get it, but that's a very mature thing to absorband understand.
And
within my own evolution, think fear almost, and now for a lot of people, it's kind of likea bad word, where it's like something...
(38:14):
almost like shameful to feel, right?
Like, no, don't live from fear.
And I think over time I've really been able to change the relationship that I have withfear because I'm like, it is baked in at a DNA level.
Like, it is there for a reason and it is awesome.
And like, if we just give some space at looking at it like objectively where we're like,whoa, what are you actually trying to say?
(38:38):
um What stories am I like making up?
What is actually real and what can I know is genuinely true?
um And what you realize is like everything is kind of always both It's like there's reallyhigh potential and there's really scary potential I don't care what it is that you're
looking at it has both sides and it's baked in for a reason and so Once I like kind ofstarted to understand like the fear is for me
(39:07):
Like the fear is like the guide to the path.
As long as I'm willing to like not push it down, as long as I'm willing to like give it alittle room and space, they kind of like lay shit out on the table.
Everything started to change like very, where I kind of look forward.
I know when I start to feel afraid, I'm about to get like a key, like to the kingdom,right?
(39:29):
Whether it's like coming from an old story that I have to like unpack.
or it's a genuine reality and it's telling me like, that's a bad deal.
know, either way, like instead of looking at it as such a thing to like not exist, likedon't be afraid, it's become like a very close homie, kinda.
(39:52):
almost like a uh guest at the dinner party, right?
And you've got a number of guests at the dinner party and you don't want to not invitefear or at least you don't want to disinvite fear.
Fear can sit at the table and argue its case, but also at the table is optimism, right?
(40:13):
And ambition and things like that.
you let it be heard for a second, it quiets down.
You know, and it maybe starts eating.
Like, it's not so freaking loud.
I think when we, like, don't give it a level of validity or hear it out or give it space,that's when it, like, starts to take over and become consuming.
(40:38):
It's like, you know, everybody at the table's gotta be heard.
Yeah, I like that.
I like that a lot.
There's not when fear might be the the loudest one for the first couple minutes of thedinner conversation.
But then after, you know, optimism sitting right next to fear, let's say an optimism sitsthere and listens to fear and then responds.
(41:01):
And then you as the host is you're listening to the counterpoint.
You're like, wow, optimism's got a really good point, you know, and then you've got
ambition of sitting next to optimism and then they have something to say and then uh
what's crazy too is I realize like you can't have one without the other.
(41:24):
And so there is no like happiness without sadness.
Like if there's no contrast, it is the worst.
And that made me feel differently about everything too, where I was like, no, dude.
Bad days are baked in.
Like, if every day was a good day, there's no contrast in like, how boring would that be?
(41:47):
Like, you would never feel elation, right?
You would never feel like the opposites are like, part of the thing.
And I do think there's been a weird thing that...
I don't know if it's society or how it works, but for a long time I spent a lot of energytrying to like not feel anxiety, not feel fear, not feel negative, like not, you know, and
(42:13):
I was just like, no, no, no, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay, you know, and it's like, no,that's all part of the bundle.
Like it's, and that becomes, it just, it's a different game from that place.
Yeah.
You can't have a dinner party just with fear, but, you know, fear has to be part of thedinner party.
(42:36):
That's the deal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
it.
We got really philosophical, didn't we?
Look at us.
Amazing.
wait, Donovan, I didn't do that very well.
Hold on a second.
(42:57):
Look at that, I'm using the tools at my disposal.
Next level podcasting, what am I gonna say?
You know, after seven years, this is the kind of quality production you get.
Yes, you know that's wait till the fart noises come in
(43:17):
Yeah, Donovan, he's been tasked with finding fart noises and other things like that.
um So in the last three or four years, let's call it, you know, uh COVID, certainly duringand post COVID, certainly things have been very politically charged, right?
(43:37):
With the conversation kind of out there in the public and stuff.
And in the hair salon, of course, we have a lot of people coming in and out, clientssitting in the chair and stuff, and hairstyles have opinions, clients have opinions, and
most people, I think, do a pretty good job of moderating the more controversial things.
(44:02):
What's your opinion on political conversation in the salon?
Do you ever find yourself standing there and you got a client like just railing, know, proor con something that just sends you through the roof?
You know, it's so interesting, because it's like, as hairdressers, it's our job to, like,we hold a lot of space, we hold a lot of energy, and I think a lot of people make politics
(44:32):
really special, um no matter what side you're on, um and it's almost to the point whereit's like, identity and...
There are uncomfortable conversations, even when someone's talking about losing a lovedone or cancer and it's big emotions and I think the same thing is happening to people
(45:01):
politically with the way that they're perceiving reality.
And so at the shop...
how I look at it is like we're a really close team, we're a family, and like we're thereto provide an experience for sure.
And it is our job as the service provider and protector of the space to make sure thateverybody feels safe.
(45:27):
And so I trust my stylists if it is a heated, disruptive situation.
um that we contain it and handle it just because um that would be the same way that wewould treat any other issue like that.
(45:54):
It's like a high intensity issue, but at the same time, you know, we're spaceholders.
And so I think it's a fine line to walk where
Sometimes like people do just want to feel heard um And if they can do so respectfully Ithink something that's like causing a massive divide is the inability to talk about things
(46:23):
and so it's it's It's a really fine line and I it is my personal hope that we get back toa place where we can actually talk um
because the division is really a...
creating a lot of harm, I think and um It's a tough thing to navigate and sometimes doesneed to be like shut down if someone's being inappropriate but they will be shut down if
(46:53):
they're being inappropriate about anything and so Yeah, I don't know.
It's tough.
I but I I don't think it's my place to like Tell people what to put in their body.
I don't think it's my place to tell people what they can and can't talk about
So we just hold basic boundaries in terms of like respect.
(47:16):
And as long as that's met, like I'm really open.
Yeah, that's how.
you've ever had with a client in the chair?
Well, probably like COVID.
So people had really serious opinions on what is right and wrong.
And so for me as a business owner and a hairstylist, like it is not my business to tellpeople what to put in their body or not.
(47:46):
And so I have been like screamed at telling me that I'm killing people because I didn'tmandate them to do that.
Right.
Bye.
that's probably been like the hardest, most outrageous.
(48:07):
I mean, it was like the most, it was the most outrageous.
And also like, hey, I appreciate like the passion, you know, and like you're no longerwelcome here and it's a bummer.
But at the same time, like I...
(48:28):
Heart is like such a spectrum.
Cause like I'm really grateful for that experience.
I think, you know, on the flip side, watching, like I do a lot of families and I watcheverybody grow up and I, you know, the head of the family got sick and I was like,
(48:50):
there for all of the announcements and watching the decline and helping them come in in awheelchair and then decorating them in the casket.
And so it's such a interesting thing to say hard, but you know, kind of circling back tolike what we said before.
I think like the depth and the contrast in experiences is
(49:16):
also necessary and makes for like a really rich, robust, deep life.
yeah, I agree with that.
I love how you framed it at the end.
I think that's 100 % right.
If you could wave a wand and change anything about the industry, what would it be?
(49:36):
Oh wow, um, off the cuff?
Just like, it would be cool to have no tacks on tips.
Like that'd be pretty sweet.
Like I'm here for that.
I'm very, yeah, like that'd be cool.
(49:58):
I'm very like...
Like I said, like I'm here for the contrast and I think like problems are great becauselike problems allow for space for innovation.
Like it's an opportunity.
And so I'm really, you know, I have things that like,
I'll find myself saying as I get older where I'm like, these kids ain't got no work ethicor whatever my shit is.
(50:22):
But I'm also like that kind of stuff has caused me to innovate where I'm like, damn, whatkind of business model could I have?
Like if they're all about like work life balance, like who the hell am I to judge aboutthat?
And so I'm like, damn, what could I do to create a win-win?
You know, so I'm very like.
Fuck a wand, right?
Like the wand is in your like every day and like how you kind of alchemize yourperspective, I think.
(50:50):
So...
Yeah.
uh you've got a permanent want.
That's right, that's right.
I'm like, what do you mean?
Yeah.
Do you have any horror stories you want to tell us?
Yeah, it could be from you on one of your clients.
could be, you know, one of your stylists in the salon that you saw something horriblehappen.
(51:14):
It could be anything.
You know, I think like, something that was horrible for me is like when I was in beautyschool and I was like, my dad was my first men's cut and that shit took me like four hours
first of all and like my hands were shaking and I like cut his fucking ear and it bled forlike
(51:39):
my god, that's...
like it was like the entire appointment.
He's like graying and it's like pink and so that was drama.
Yeah, and he's like, it's okay.
Like don't fucking worry about like he's all trying to encourage me and I'm just like,yeah.
Yeah, yeah, this is really cute.
(52:00):
Or I mean, I've I'm a horror story.
Like I've broken off my hair so many times.
You know.
um Yeah, I think.
Yeah, I'm the worst with that, cause I'm like, eh, it's just hair.
Well, yeah, but no, I'm in the Dadu and that one's awesome.
uh That one's amazing.
(52:21):
All right, any last words for the community?
No, I just, I'm really grateful to be in your sphere and be asked to be on here.
I think, I feel excited about where the industry is going in a big way.
(52:45):
And I think just like, don't be afraid to try shit.
Yeah, that was so key.
I've been trying to deliver that message in various forms over the years.
I find that I have the same self limitations.
uh And that's why I can speak to it so confidently because it's all made up.
(53:12):
It's all made up.
But of course, it becomes real once you start.
making it up.
It's like you make it up and then it becomes real.
This kind of like how you said it.
so be
and I think like, inside of the expectation idea or like whatever you think is real, likewhat I'm learning, I feel like that I'm almost at a level of adopting as a belief, which
(53:37):
I'm very like, weird about saying, I believe, you know?
But it's just like, if you are trying something new, like you're gonna fail.
Like you're just gonna.
And so like normalizing messiness and like allowing, like we talked about, that contrastto be part of your story.
(54:03):
You know, like a messy, originally very messy drug addict-y nightmare.
And I have an incredible like life and community and career and the...
the amount of like gratitude and happiness and joy and money and like things that I get toexperience because it was so that I wouldn't trade for the world.
(54:33):
And so, you know, on the hard days or when shit sucks, just know like that's yourcontrast.
It's helped me like be less limited, I guess, and be down to like
be a mess and not know and like try again.
(54:56):
Totally, I love it.
Well, we're gonna leave it there.
I can't add any more to that.
This was awesome, Chelsea, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you.
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