Ep. 414 • Is Hustle Culture Necessary or Toxic? w/ Morgan Thomas - The Hair Game

Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
The Hair Game (00:00)
Hi Morgan, how are you?
Morgan Thomas (00:01)
Good, how are you?
I think the listeners would really appreciate knowing that you're in your closet right now because that's the kind of dedication that we have here at the Hair Game Podcast. We do what it takes to deliver great content. And sometimes that means recording a podcast from your closet.
I am. This was my hangout spot.
It is.
It's true. I live with all boys in my house, so this is my only girly space. But yes, it's also great acoustics. You're right.
Haha. Mm-hmm.
great acoustics. I've had many, many, many important phone conversations in my closet when I'm at home because there's no better acoustics. There's times where I actually split the clothes on the rack and I speak in the middle of the clothes to make sure that there's absolutely no echoing. Okay, so.
That's where the deals get done. Yeah, I love it.
amazing. I love that. That's great.
For those of our listeners who do not know you, Morgan, you're a Chicago hairdresser and educator who specializes in blonde and editorial work. I love the fact that you do editorial, with all the blonding stuff you do in education, I love the fact that there's editorial in there. We're gonna talk a little bit about that. You're a nine million time one shot award nominee. I think it's like 19 or 20, but who's counting? Modern Salon Artist of the Year, which is super cool.
Yeah.
you
Yeah.
And you're an ambassador for K18, Oligo Pro, and Design Me. So that's a lot. You got a lot happening.
Yeah,
I do. It's exciting. I've got a really exciting life, I tell ya. I'm very blessed.
and you have a house full of boys. Am I?
I do.
I two sons, 13 and 9, and then my oldest son is 38. No, I'm kidding. My husband and my two boys. ⁓ Yes. Yeah, so ⁓ I'm the queen of the castle over here. All right.
He acts like your oldest son, yes.
My mom was also a boy mom. And
⁓ it's a whole thing, boy moms. And I didn't realize this until I got married. I have a wife now. I have a girl and a boy. And now and then I hear about boy moms. And there is, I think, a unique skill that is honed over those early years with a mom who just has boys.
Yes.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
there is. There's
an inflection in your voice that you learn. That is the only effective way to speak to boys when they're little, for sure.
Yes, probably involves force, like a little bit of right, a look, maybe a little violence. Yes. ⁓ So the fact that I have a girl and a boy, that allows me to see how my wife can transition from parenting, you know, one gender one way and then another gender another way. And it's so different. I have to say though,
Yes. And I look, they go together, yeah, it's good.
right?
Yeah.
that the girl, she would probably tell you is more challenging because there's more psychology to it. Like the girl is out there to, yes, she's out there to bring you down from the inside. know, that's right. She wants to, you know, kind of like one of these parasitic, like ⁓ ocean creatures that burrows itself into your skin when you don't, when you aren't aware of it. And then
way more psychology.
Yes. She wants to hurt you here. Right. Yeah.
and then slowly eats away at your brain before taking over your body without you ever realizing it. The boys are just right there in front of you being a pain in the ass.
Yeah,
they are who they are. Yeah. There's no psychology there.
Yeah. There's no psychology
to it. It's just, it is, the difficulty is what it is. And you have to deal with it. All right, well, let's start with you. Where are from originally and how did you become a hairdresser? Why did you become a hairdresser?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I'm originally from the Minneapolis area. I went to the Aveda Institute of Minneapolis, is like my motherland of Aveda, 20 years ago, which is hard to believe. ⁓ I think I've always loved doing hair. I've always loved a creative outlet. I wanted to be an artist when I was a kid and I thought, okay, am I going to starve and not be, you know what mean? It's hard to pull that off, to be an artist professionally.
So I thought, well, I can get into hair and I've always loved it. ⁓ But I did go to college first. My parents were like, no, you need to go to a four year school. I was going to nursing school. And then after like a year and a half, I was like, this is just, I just don't have any passion in this. And they were like, well, then go to hair school. So I did and have not looked back. It's been an, I,
so lucky to be in such an amazing field. Like what I love about is people are excited to see us and they pay us, you know? Like it's wild. Like it's really cool what we get to do. And there's so many different avenues in our industry. So you never get bored. I haven't at least. Yeah.
No doubt about it. No doubt
about it. Kind of one of the reasons I wanted to get into the industry as well. My mom was an artist and I grew up in the house. She was one of, ⁓ you know, very few people who can make a living actually doing art. And that was made possible by the fact that my dad was in a really boring business called the real estate business. And so the really boring business supported the
Yeah, amazing.
Yeah, we're really cool, but I to see that.
the awesome creative exciting business of
my mom being an artist until she got to the point where she was selling enough art herself. And so she's been a, mean, my parents are still together and everything's, but she's, she's had, you know, probably one of the higher incomes amongst artists. And of course, I don't know what that is, but I mean, she's made a great living as an oil painter for, I don't know, my entire life, almost 50 years.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Amazing.
which I recognize as being so unique. And one of the things, one of the lessons that I think is nice coming out of that is that she's been extremely adaptable. And I think when I talk to people who want to be artists or, you know, they have a normal job, but they're trying to be an artist on the side, they tend to be so stubborn about, you know, what kind of art they're going to create. And so they create the art. And if nobody likes it,
amazing.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
then nobody buys it. And that's everybody else's fault that nobody buys it, right? It's not that artist's fault. My mom has been extreme. She may be a little more pragmatic than that. And so she would go to these galleries and she'd be like, well, what do your clients want? And so she would take that feedback and ⁓ adapt her work a little in the direction of what the market, what an art buyer actually wants to buy.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I thought that was very interesting and it served her well. ⁓ so it, you know, leading up to, let's say the holiday season at the end of the year, ⁓ one of the galleries that ⁓ buys her work and has clients who like her and all that market her, they'll say like, you know, we have demand for a, like a Mother Mary, you know, like a Mother Mary and Jesus sort of thing.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Yeah.
and
this was years ago, I remember, and she had never painted anything religious, but she's like, okay, how is that different than painting any other humans? And she had gotten really good at painting humans in portraits, so she painted like Marian, Marian baby Jesus. She's not Catholic or anything, but she painted, you and so some artists might say, well, that's, that's, ⁓
Yeah.
It's not my wheelhouse.
Yeah.
that's not
my wheelhouse, I don't do that kind of thing, I'm not into that, you know. But so she does that. So I think that was a really, really cool lesson. But, and of course, you're in the hair industry, we're in the hair industry, and there's a lot of that. There's a lot of adapting to what the clients want. There's certainly artistry and creativity, but at the end of the day, the client's paying you for a service and they have to like it, right? So.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, and like they
want what they want. You know what I mean? I always say if you like it, I love it because sometimes you get an insole pick and you're like, yeah, I don't like that. But that's what they want. You know what I mean? So it is. And I think, you know.
They want what they want.
there's a certain level of ego in our in any creative industry, right? We have it's so personal to us, just like being an artist, and your mom was able to see past having an ego to also be marketable. And I think that's a key in our industry to is, you know, removing your ego and
I think there's a lot of those conversations happening right now where people are like, well, that's not what I do in my chair. And this is this. And while I agree with that and you whatever works for your business, I think being adaptable is the biggest thing to stay in this industry long term. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Yeah, and be successful.
Yeah, I mean, financially healthy and, and all that. And so do you, you've been doing this 20 years, you say, I imagine in that time, you've been able to direct your client or at least hone, know, curate is the word I was trying to think of your clientele to be the thing that you like to do the most, which is kind of like the El Dorado for a beauty professional, right? It's like,
Yeah.
You like to do extensions or whatever and to have an all extension clientele. And of course that takes a long time. So if you've gotten to that point where you've gotten your... ⁓
Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah, for
sure. mean, not just in what I want to do, but also the type of client that I enjoy being with personally too. Like I'm so lucky. I just have like an amazing clientele that it's just like it is. It's perfectly curated at this point in my career of who I want to be around, who I want to serve, and also the type of color that I want to do. They really trust me too, which also helps, right? When you're trying to kind of like
Sure.
your perfect book is people who trust that, like, hey, I'm gonna give you what's gonna look best on you. So yeah, I mean, I do feel like there's so many beautiful things that come from time in this industry, and that's one of them for sure, is that you kinda get that say-so now of where you feel confident being like, this is what I wanna be doing, but still being adaptable. It is still important to be like, okay, well,
I might not want to do, I mean, I won't do perms and I won't do men's cuts and I won't do kids cuts anymore. But, you know, even within the color space, you know, it, you have to be adaptable in order to stay long-term, I think. But there is some, there is some benefits of being in it long-term because you do kind of have a little bit more say so and again, that trust with your client. Yeah.
Absolutely huge.
Contributes to you having a being happy in your life and in your career. So I'm curious with the art, do you like dabble on the side?
Yeah.
I do, yeah. I love ⁓ to draw, I love to paint. I've always been like a big crafter, so I do a lot of different mediums, but I do, you know, I do a lot of portrait stuff just for friends and family. Like, I'm not gonna sell them, but... ⁓
But I enjoy that. I wish I had like a little more time to spend on that kind of stuff. I, that's where I got into the editorial space was I'm like, I'm creating art with hair. Like what better way to share my passion and potentially, you know, do something with it or advance my career. So I've loved doing the editorial because it is like art with hair, you know, and I like to do a lot of avant-garde stuff, which is essentially crafting with hair. So it's fun. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. Okay, so let's back up to you went to beauty school and you get were you good at it right out of the gate or did was it
Mm-hmm.
I I think
I had a natural, like, you know, this industry is one that is like, I don't want to say you either have it or you don't, but you kind of like, you have a natural aptitude for it. And I think I did. And then I went and apprenticed for a couple of years at a big Aveda salon. And I, it was tough because it was very corporate. It was very,
regimented, but that was perfect for what I needed. I would never take those years back. I learned everything in those years about business, about building a clientele, about technique. If I wouldn't have done that, I don't know if I'd still be in the industry, but it was tough. I was at a very strict salon, but it taught me a lot. And then I moved to New York City. was apprenticing a big editorial stylist at the time and learned ⁓ a
a lot from him and ⁓ then I moved for love to Chicago to be with my husband.
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Before we get into the romantic part of the story,
I'm fascinated about moving to New York, one of the most expensive cities in the world, to assist an editorial hairstylist. mean, editorial hairstylists are ready, challenging to make enough money to pay to live in a place like New York, much less being the assistant to such a person. So how long did you do that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I worked for him for about two years and then I got signed by an agency and that point then I went independent. ⁓ He was not a nobody, let's put it that way. So he, I mean, I was, he was doing well. So it worked out. I learned a lot, a lot from him. I'm so grateful for the time that I had. ⁓ And then when I went and I got signed with an agency, then I was, you know, doing my own thing and
pretty good.
Okay.
I did that for another two years. I was in New York for four years total and then came to Chicago. So, yeah.
Amazing. So this
dude was a top five, top 10 dude and doing well. And so you got tremendous experience working under him, I imagine. And then you did it on your own, which is so cool. And were you full-time editorial or did you also work in a salon part-time? Wow. Wow.
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah, no, I was full time editorial at that point. So
I was with the agency I was with I was going to Miami, LA, I was, you know, based in New York, but I was doing kind of bi coastal thing.
And yeah, I mean, I still wasn't like by today's standards wasn't making that much money, but I also was a kid, essentially. I didn't have a lot of bills. You know, I was renting a room in New York City and just trying to like live the life. So it worked out. I'm so grateful again for having that experience ⁓ because I couldn't do it now. You know what I mean? Like, but it was great. It was great. And then, yes, came to Chicago and started completely over when I came to Chicago.
Yeah. Right.
Okay, well first of all, why did you stop doing editorial after two years of being independent?
So after two years of independent, I when I came to Chicago, the agency I was with did not have a artist division in Chicago. So they were like, if you're not here, we're not working together. Yeah, that's not happening. Yeah. So I kind of took that very hard. Like I was like, you know,
If you're not in New York, the road is over.
I was following my heart to come here, but, I was, I was ready to leave New York at the same time. Like, you know, four years in New York feels like 14. So I was ready to try something new.
And editorial full time is exhausting in the sense of like you're sometimes working 20 days straight and then you're off for 20 days and or a month or whatever and it just gets you're always chasing the next contract and you're always waiting for agent to call you and
Like I said, it was fun, but I was ready to have like more consistency. I was ready to kind of like grow up a little bit so that we can just have kind of like regular life. Yeah, and I totally and I am.
Yeah.
healthier lifestyle, not waking up at 4 AM for, yeah.
was at their beck and call. Like working with that agency was amazing for my career, but I was very chained to them and their schedule and I had no social life and that got old at 24 years old. ⁓ I was kind of like put it away. I was like, no, I'm going to move to Chicago and I'm never going to do that ever again. I literally said that. I was like, I'm not doing editorial again. Yeah.
So now to the romance.
Interesting. Okay. And
because I mean, you had done it straight away. So I could totally, you did it full time for four years and ⁓ what a lifestyle to live for four straight years. And then you were in love. And so the romantic part of the story was, ⁓ before I interrupted you was to move to Chicago where your boyfriend with your boyfriend. Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. My then boyfriend,
now my husband of the last.
I think almost 15 years. Yeah. I don't know. want to do the math, you know, you kind of run out, but um, yeah. So he lived here. We did long distance while I was in New York and um, then I was like, again, it was time. Like we're going to get married. Like, okay, I'm going to move to Chicago being from Minneapolis. I was like, I want to raise kids in the Midwest, be closer to my family. So it made sense for me to move here and I came with no job. I came with very little money and
It probably feels like 45 years.
my
bank account at that point and was like, okay, I want to get back into a salon and had to start completely over, which is not fun, but we did it. Yeah.
scary and exciting. And
how did you do it? How did you find the first salon that you worked?
this was back in let's see 2011 and I found a Craigslist ad which you would never do now but that's how you found jobs
That's true. Craigslist used to be the kind of built bulletin board online for the younger hairdressers. This might be strange for all the rest of them. Everybody remembers that. Craigslist, we used to post information on Craigslist and stuff like that. We would even, yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's how I used to my models like when I was fresh into the industry and we needed all these
models for bootcamp. Like finding people on Craigslist, which now is so dangerous. But back then it was just like the way, you know? ⁓ But yeah, so I found an ad on Craigslist for salon. I didn't know the area. I didn't know the salon. was just like, let's just try this out. And ⁓ it worked. I was kind of like, I don't want to say desperate for a job, but I was like, OK, I need to get
Yeah, it was.
Hahaha
back into working. I took about a month off between moving here and I was like, I got to do something. So, ⁓ yeah, I mean, and then it was a slow burn, you know, took, I would say a healthy three years before I like really built up my clientele and really got back into the groove. And that's also when I was like having children. So then you've got that factor in there too. And then, ⁓ after five years, she closed her doors. So,
then I decided, well, I'm taking all these clients because by that point I had a very full book, took all my clients and went independent. So yeah,
Good. Awesome. I love it.
so you have the clientele you want now you have the studio that you want now in the area and the lifestyle and the freedom to You know manage your family and your kids and all that stuff, which is like
Yeah.
the dream of so many people. And so tell us some lessons. How does a listener who's listening right now, let's say they're leaving beauty school in the next couple months, how do they get to that level that you are in?
Mm-hmm.
I really, really strongly suggest finding a busy commission salon that has a really great training program. And I know that that's hard. And I think there's this kind of like this push and pull right now where a lot of guys and girls right out of beauty school are like, I'm going to go to a suite.
or I'm gonna go independent right away. And not to knock what they're doing, but relying on Instagram to train you is not gonna be the way, right? I mean, you can maybe build a clientele a little bit easier because of social media, but I mean, everything I learned was in that first salon. I mean, and then you expand on it, but like, you don't, coming out of you...
don't know anything. You know what I mean? So it's so important and I know too like financially that can be tough right? Because you're going in, you're maybe making minimum wage or an hourly rate and you're like I just need to get out of here and and build a clientele and I'm fortunate that my parents were kind of helping me financially those first couple years when I wasn't making any money and they're like just invest yourself into learning. And so I'm lucky that I had that I know not everyone does but
If you can find a way, you know a lot of girls work you know other second jobs just to make ends meet, but if you can find a way to really like get you know dive in those first couple years that's where everything I owe every part of my career to that. So it taught me also how to be a really
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Structured stylist too. ⁓ It taught me, you know, I was working with clients that had tons and tons and tons of money. So it taught me the professional aspect too. ⁓ So you just can't take that away. So I think that's the biggest thing. ⁓ And don't rush. I think social media makes everyone feel like they need to be in a rush. And I feel like I'm 20 years in and I'm just getting to the point where I've had some really great moments in my career, but I feel like I'm
just getting it, you know what I mean? So it will make you feel like you've got to do everything like so fast and that's just not the case. So give yourself time, give yourself grace, and like you know really focus on your education.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, I love it. And your education even extends to that time that you did editorial, which is highly unique and probably tremendous foundational and technical and professional experience, you know, having to show up to some crazy call time every morning for, you know, 14 days and, you know, other, you know, character building elements, you know.
Yeah.
very much.
Still talking to my therapist about it. No, but I mean, I learned a lot in those years in New York. I mean, there was a lot of times I left, you know, you cry at night, you don't cry on set, but you cry at night. And while it was tough, I'm so like,
on the, right? the tip. ⁓ funny.
again thankful for that. It toughened me up in a way that I think I needed and if you're going to be in a certain aspect of our industry you do need a certain thick skin. yeah, I mean it was was hard but it was good.
So how much time do you spend behind the chair now versus editorial versus ⁓ content creating for the brands that you're an ambassador for?
Yeah, so I mean, I went from working, you know, like, I don't know, 30 hours a week to when I became self employed. Now I just work all the time. But no, it's good because I love what I do. It is a lot and people are like, I would not want your life. But I am so passionate about what I do that I can't put an hour because I it's ebbs and flows. But ⁓ I am behind the chair usually three to four days a week. And then ⁓ I traveled
sometimes once a week, sometimes every other week. It's quite a bit teaching. And then content creation is feels like all the time. You know what I mean? Whenever you have a free second, that's what you're doing. But yeah, I mean, I work a lot. That's the moral of the story. I work a lot. So.
I love your Instagram posts. You have one where you show in a very real way. It's not like you put a tremendous amount of production effort into getting glimpses of your travel day, which is what it's supposed to be. It's great. You're seeing that you wake up at 4 a.m. or no, no. You probably were in the salon during the day and then you're at the airport at five o'clock in the evening.
Okay.
You fly across the country. You get to bed at 1.30 a.m. at the hotel. You're up at 6 a.m. to go to the class that you're teaching down the street. You teach it until 5 p.m. and then you're back on the plane and you're back in bed in your bed at 1 a.m. in Chicago. And then you're back in the salon at 9.30 in the morning. It all seems very glamorous. Yeah, it all seems very glamorous.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's kind of my life.
Everybody always wants to be like, I want to be an educator, you know, because it seems like a like a status flex, you know, like it's a you're a higher level of status, if you can say that. But I I've always seen that the the the back end is there's not very fun, you know, just kind of like the editorial.
Absolutely.
Who does?
There's not a lot of glamour in it.
Yeah, there's there's not a lot of glamour. I usually am eating DoorDash in my bed in my hotel room. You know what I mean? When I first got into education two years ago, I used to like, fly in a day early. I'll do like a touristy thing. I'll go out for dinners every night. And then you realize
Right? Yeah, and it's all, you could write it all
off, right?
Yeah, and but then you
realize like that gets really old and like the more time you're away from home. So I do I compact and that is my choice to travel like that people are like that's insane. Like why do your brands make you do that? It's not my brands at all. It's me being like put me on the latest flight possible. Get me home the earliest because it does get old and I love what I do as long as I can keep it compacted. know, so
and go home.
That makes sense.
The other thing I love about your content is you do a really good job making hairstylist memes. know, like that's not an easy thing to do to be a comedian.
I love it. I've tried.
Yeah, I've tried really hard because I won't client shame. I just don't think it's cute but
Right.
No.
I think there's so much humor and like who we are. We're all collectively very similar and so I like to poke fun at myself first and foremost. ⁓ But yeah, I just think we need a lot of like there can be a lot of heaviness in our industry sometimes so I'm like I just want to be light and fluffy over here, make people laugh when I can, and you know leave the rest.
I mean, super, I don't wanna make the listeners think that you're a professional comedian, but I mean, some of these are really funny. Like you've got one, you've got one where you make fun of the warranty on a hair tool. And of course we've all dealt with warranties on whatever products, especially the ones we use for work. And the way that you did it as you are the warranty,
Thank you. ⁓
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
as
your character in this little meme skit that you did on your Instagram page. It's just fricking hilarious. so listeners, you gotta watch this. I mean, is, there's only, let's see, 60, think that would be August. It was like August 8th or whatever that she posted this. Yeah, so there's a number of these that are really funny. you're definitely putting the effort.
Thank you.
you
Yeah, wasn't too long ago.
and ⁓ you're good at it and your personality shines through and everything, so good for you.
Well, thank you. And
like, it's funny because those ones I get paid zero dollars for, but they're what I enjoy doing. It's just fun. But that's art, right? Sometimes you do things that you don't get paid for. They're just like fun to do. So yeah.
Right. Well, yeah. Totally.
Absolutely.
All right, so talk to the listeners about ⁓ what it is to be an ambassador or, you know, ⁓ you know, a this artist or that artist. ⁓ Some of the brands that you work for are K-18 and Oligo Pro and Design Me, maybe there's more. ⁓ So maybe they don't know what that is to be one of those, but give us an idea.
Yeah, so I'm super, super lucky that I work with three brands that I
used before I became an ambassador. That was first and foremost for me. Once I got to the point where I'm like, I want to start working with the brands, I needed it to feel ⁓ good. I needed to feel like it was honest and I had used Alago for probably three years before I signed with them ⁓ and then Designed Me a long time too. I kind of chased Designed Me for a while and then finally they were like, hey, you know. So they, mean, truly I know it can be toxic but saying this, but they're truly
like my family. Like it is it I know these people so well that I'm lucky that I also get to work with them. But um, as a brand ambassador, you typically are either making content for them or educating for them. There's different avenues, every brand I do a different facet for. So it's really
I love working for the brands, truthfully. Like it's so good because I am aligned with brands that are really good to me also. I know there can be, again, conversations where they're like, brands are just using artists to do this or that. And I've never once felt like that. So ⁓ it feels really good. And yeah, you can do a variety of things for brand. It can be content creation. It can be educating. It can be doing platform work and shows, which is probably my favorite. I love doing the beauty.
show circuits. But ⁓
even though they take
a lot of time.
They do and they can be like very overstimulating. Like I don't ever walk the floor, but I enjoy ⁓ the stage presence of it. I enjoy meeting stylists and doing the classrooms there and whatnot. ⁓ So yeah, it's fun. There's so many things you can do when it comes to working with brands. You just have to kind of find those opportunities. And truthfully, like they're there. You just gotta, you gotta look for them. You gotta find the right angle and knowing
Of course.
people too doesn't hurt either, right? Like so many of the opportunities I've gotten, whether they were way back when I moved to New York or came here, were based on who I knew, you know what I mean? Like real life networking is just as important as the social networking piece of it too.
Yeah, mean, maybe more. And that was kind of where I was going to take you, which was how do you make these connections to the point where you become an ambassador? Because people ask all the time. And one of the things that I see over and over again is those who put the effort into networking, and to put kind of a formal word on it, the reality is you show up
to whatever event or whatever show and you walk up to the human and you introduce yourself and you have a conversation. And it's as easy as that, but you just have to do it a lot and then you get better at it and you develop relationships. And then the brands are always looking for people who are going to ⁓ be supportive of their goals and help them.
expand the business and use our product right and be a, an evangelist for ⁓ what they do. And so if you're aligned, it could be very, very mutually beneficial, but kind of hard to sit on the couch and be lazy about it and get all the benefits of being an ambassador.
The thing is when it comes to working with brands is from my experience.
Brands are not always gonna come to you first. You have to have them see you in some way. And for me, that was kind of poking them on social media as far as making content, something that they would like, tagging them, et cetera. And then, yeah, mean, do not sleep on in-person connection. And again, I think we've gotten to this very anti-social world where I can't do that. But even if it's just getting close with your distributor or your rep,
like, hey, you I'm interested in they have they know the brands, you know what I mean? So sometimes it's starting with those connections that you feel comfortable with. But truly, I mean, I've just been so blessed. And part of that is because of social media, like my page opened a door for people to be ⁓ very social with me in person because they would say, hey, I know your face and ⁓ I like your content. Right. So that made it a little bit less ⁓ scary. Right. But
truthfully, nothing happens if you don't make it happen. I mean, I am a big advocate for that. And I know we've said in the last couple of years that like a hustle culture is toxic, but I'm not really the person to talk to about that because I feel like everything I've done is because I've hustled for it. You know what I mean? So while I think burnout culture is toxic, I think you got to put in the work to get the opportunities. They're not going to come knocking at your door because they've got five other million
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
people knocking at their door. You know what I mean?
Popular
culture loves to swing to extremes, right? so somebody in pop culture identifies this thing that they name hustle culture. And then we think about, ⁓ it's horrible to work too much to double book clients to do all these things. And obviously, everybody's different. It's very subjective. ⁓
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
But that doesn't, if somebody goes overboard or if somebody goes overboard to the point at which they burn out, that doesn't mean that doing the opposite is the remedy. It doesn't mean that sitting on your ass is the remedy. There should always be ⁓ an effort to network and get to know people in your industry and then just, you know.
put it out there, so to speak, with your effort, if you want to do something in the industry. If it's an ambassador, you need to put it out there by having conversations with people at the brands that you like. And do it pretty regularly. DM, go to the event, go to the education. And ⁓ that may seem aggressive, ⁓ but it's just kind of a fundamental thing. ⁓
Yeah.
Show your face, show up,
It is.
It really is. It's not, and I mean...
Yeah, that's not hustle culture. That's just having a, that's
meeting somebody.
Yeah, and I think too, like when it comes to this whole like hustle culture conversation, I don't know anyone in any industry that's like successful that hasn't like hustled, you know what I mean? So like, it's just not gonna happen without a certain level of that. Now again, I see where it can become and I've fallen into that where I was working, you know, 24 seven, no days off and that is crazy, right? You can you can find a balance but yeah, I think you still got to put in the work.
Yeah.
so ⁓
Right.
And I know that that hustle culture is not, we've talked about it a lot, but it's not also a permanent thing either. You know, one can, I know people who have been extremely productive in their lives, who are highly productive in certain opportunistic times where, you know, that tremendous amount of effort is timed in such a way that it's gonna, it's gonna have great results.
Yeah.
And
then when the opportunity has been seized, so to speak, there might be a slowdown in their schedule for a little bit. And then when there's another opportunity, they can go all in for another three weeks or three months or whatever until things slow down. So that's the way to get things done in the world.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And that's how our industry is like sometimes, you know, my spring into June is crazy, is crazy crazy. And then July and August are slower.
and then September, October, November, final push before the holidays. And I know like that's the that's the exciting part is like I know November 15th, I'm kind of dead till February 15th. Right. So it's that's how the industry works. Like I, you know, we have our ebbs and flows as far as like when education is happening and events. And then in those winter months, I get to focus solely on my clients, solely on my behind the chair business, maybe content creation, but I'm not traveling. So
Mm-hmm.
yeah?
that's the reward at the end of it is like I get you know all these months off to not be on an airplane because that's fabulous too.
Yeah,
yeah. So any changes behind the chair with your clients behavior? Like ⁓ people spreading out appointments or are they still very consistent?
know I
feel like everything's been knock on wood pretty consistent still and I mean again I know that I look like I'm you know 25 but I did work in a lot right I did I was a hairstylist in the last recession if I don't know if that's where we're headed but if we were um I mean I feel like we're in a good part of the industry that a lot of people don't skimp on but um I haven't seen
Well, I was going to say 22.
with the blonding,
for example. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I mean with all
of it. I mean, especially with lived in color, it makes it easier, but we've almost already been preparing for that, you know, so because my clients, a lot of them that are coming in for the big package appointments, I see them every three months anyway. So I haven't seen a lot of that yet. I am in kind of like a affluent area that I don't know if people are super affected right now. But I I do feel just from what I see online and
Just in general, feel like people are a little bit like looking at their finances a little different. So, but luckily not, not yet. So we'll see.
Good.
was a period in, you know, 2024, I would say, where some of the mainstream media, Washington Post had an article about, ⁓ you know, what it, what it takes to get your hair done these days, kind of post COVID. I think Wall Street Journal had another one and they were, I think that the authors of these articles were a little unfair in how they were treating, you know, the
the beauty professionals that they were, the kind of the anecdotes that they were giving, their experiences and ⁓ talking about how to get a particular service done is three times more expensive than it was in 2019 or whatever. like, is it worth it? And how can people afford this kind of stuff? And I started seeing that and you didn't really see this very much pre-COVID. ⁓
Right.
Mm-hmm.
No. Yeah.
And of course, we had all of the economies, the United States economy also, ⁓ had inflationary experiences that we hadn't seen in many, many years. So, you know, I think it's fundamentally unfair that they wouldn't think that a hairstylist should be able to raise their prices commensurate with other types of things. But it did seem like there was some kind of a
Mm-hmm.
an arm wrestle between some clients and some hairstylists that had kind of leaked out onto social media.
Yeah. Yeah, I've seen a lot of that. Like recently there was one that went viral of a girl that was like a hairstylist or scam artist and like did this whole thing. I think I think anything like that or the interviews you were speaking about or articles.
It's just, it's so like, you're just seeing a little snippet. Like, are there hairstylists that maybe charge too much? Sure. But that's probably a small percentage. What the big scope of things are and why I feel like, you know, things are more expensive just in general, but not just on the supply end. What we do color wise is so much more involved than it was in 2019. Like, I am not doing the same thing I was 10 years ago. That would have been an easy
quick in and out, you know, you get a foil, no toner, get out of here, you know what I mean? And that was the norm. But we're in a much different era of color that it's like this is a luxury service. And to me, I just like, I look at
your color being like your Botox now, right? Like, you know, you don't complain about the price of your Botox going up because you see that as a luxury service. Well, hair color to me now is a luxury service. If you want me to give you 2019 highlights, I will, but I don't think you're going to like them. You know what I mean? So I think there is this push and pull and has there maybe been some inflating of prices and maybe people kind of like overpricing themselves out? Maybe. I don't know that specifically.
Yeah.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
specifically, but maybe. But I think we're in a much different place than we were, not just with how much things cost, but how our technique has changed and like how long you can wear that hair. Because before you were in every four to six weeks, now you're in every three months. Like.
That's great, great, great point. I'm glad you mentioned that. Now, as far as the data, I get pretty good data from some of the big companies that collect it. And it seems like pretty much across the industry of here to just average out ticket prices for services, it seems like we're right in the inflationary zone of like 3 % per year. You know, on average, right?
You
Mm. Okay.
Yeah.
what a blonding service costs versus ⁓ a haircut and how the inflation is different, there's gonna be a big difference there. ⁓ I think that hopefully we have worked positively towards changing the public's perception that if, especially with men by the way, if they went to the barber and they paid,
Right.
$40 in 2015, it shouldn't cost $40 in 2025. And I have conversations with guys who I know well, who are annoyed if they were paying $40 back then and it's more than $40 now. And you're like, what other thing in the world, name one thing, maybe other than like a laptop computer, know, technology is different, but anything else.
especially if there's a human involved, especially if there's a trained human involved, especially if there's a trained human that you actually want to spend time with involved, where the item has not increased at a decent clip. I think it's maybe...
Yeah.
right.
Right. Well, and I think in any other
industry, most people are getting a 3 % pay raise every year in any industry.
At least. So I mean, the last four years has been higher than that because so many people fell out of the labor pool because they were like, ⁓ I don't have to work. That's amazing. You know, I'm getting free money and I can, I can go to Cabo every two weeks and you know, I have all the savings and, and I I'm not going to work. So a lot of people fell out of labor for it. was hard to get people to show up to interview for a job. And I I'm not just talking about it. My company.
Yeah.
Yeah.
brand.
Right.
I'm, you know, bigger companies who deal with this much more professionally than we do at Solano Republic. They were actually paying people to show up to an interview. There were companies that had these big hiring drives because they were so low on employees where if you show up, they would hire you on the spot with a signing bonus. And I've never seen that in my adult life. That's how hard it was.
Wow.
Mm-hmm.
Wow.
Right.
And so there was greater than normal inflation with ⁓ labor costs. Now that's back to normal. The pandemic savings has been spent down and things have kind of moderated back to normal. But you still see things out there. I'm in California and California, there's a law now that requires that if a worker works at a fast food restaurant,
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
their wage is gonna go up to $25 an hour. From what it was like four years ago, was like, you know, the minimum wage was like 14. So wait a second. So a fast food worker is owed, you know, a near doubling of their income, you know, and only that kind of worker, right? And so there's all sorts of pressures for upward, you know, movement in prices. Why not for hairdressers, right? So, but...
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Of course, our relationship is with our client. Every client has a different budget. And so there's kind of a matchmaking element to find the right price to the right budget and the right person and all that stuff. And so it's got to kind of work its way out. the arm wrestling that we've seen recently, whether it's in these articles or online or on social media, has been new. I don't remember seeing this the previous 20 years.
you
And I
don't know, I think everyone wants to run to social media with like their every woe. do like I'm just like, take that up with the I don't know that kind of annoys me. But also, like, I do think we should keep some of our pricing and policies in our business. You know what I mean? Like I think sometimes we give the public too much online.
I like we don't have to tell them all of our secrets, you know what I mean? Or our business policies. I'm very strong and I don't put my business policies on my Instagram. Like that's for me and my client to discuss in person in a professional setting. But yeah, so like I so I think there's like a little bit, I'm not gonna blame one side or the other, but I do think maybe
social media is not where we need to like air out everything all the time. i don't know why that is but here we are.
Because people
don't want to have the uncomfortable conversation with their client about the rules of their business, the boundaries, the pricing or whatever. think they would much rather kind of hide behind the passive sort of action of just putting it on social media. But I also agree, it's very bad practice to do that. ⁓ I think social media is an advertising medium.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
for sure.
Right? It's not really a communication medium. So could you imagine Louis Vuitton advertising like some strict policy on non-returning of the purses on the billboard? Or, right?
Right.
you
right or when they raise their prices you know i mean they're not making a
big announcement they're just doing it and we're all okay with it you know so right
They don't announce it at all. It's just you
go to the thing and by the way, I don't go to the thing and I don't buy the purse. you know, if I were, maybe my wife doesn't either, thank God, lucky for me. But yeah, if you were, the price is just gonna be higher. They don't announce anything. And it's so funny, I go to this coffee shop down the street, I'm very good friends with the owners. It's a single unit coffee shop, just your classic little place. Very high quality coffee.
Alright.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And whenever they have to raise their price, which has been pretty regularly for the last three or four years, because the cost of coffee beans has spiked, you know, I'm paying $6 now for a cappuccino I used to pay $3 for like two years ago, right? And so every time they change any price, they put this big poster board at the point of sale system.
Right.
with all these line items apologizing, you know, this is why we have to do it. And I'm like, why are you guys doing that? Every other coffee shop down the street has to raise their prices too. And by the way, you're 50 cents less than all of them. They don't apologize to everybody and give 47 reasons.
Right. Right.
Just do it. Right.
Right.
Exactly. And I do think we, especially because our jobs are so personal to like our clients, whatever, and I've definitely been someone that was like a reformed emotional discounter, is it does feel sometimes like you need to like owe this explanation. And I mean, I think anyone could
guess why we've got to raise prices and not just like because things are more expensive but also your experience is more right like you're you're over the years you've learned more educated more experience like that comes with a higher paycheck no other industry are you getting new certifications and new degrees or whatever and you're expected to be
paid the same, you know what I mean? So I think it's a mindset thing too, like I'm not gonna lie, I think the public opinion of our industry is still pretty low. I think it's getting better for sure, but I do think, a lot of people think what we do is like a hobby or...
Right? Yeah.
whatever. But you know, if they only knew how much money is in our industry and how much hairstyles... when I first found out what a big brand ambassador made for like, you know, a big company, I almost died. You know what I mean? Like they're making so much money, but yet we're still looked at as, you know, kind of like beneath, you know, other other industries. It's frustrating.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
you
It is very frustrating.
I think you're absolutely right. ⁓ And I think that some hairdressers do a great job of professionalism and then in earning respect from their clients ⁓ and others don't. given that it's such a human...
Yeah.
⁓ experience and, this even extends to commission salons, you know, because it's really just, it's, it, at the end of the day, it's a one-on-one experience that you're having with a hairdresser, whether commission or independent or whatever. it seems to me like customer service, we got a little lazy with customer service coming out of COVID and, I, you know, and again, not everybody, but it seems like some people
Yeah. Doesn't matter.
Yes. Yes.
No, but yeah.
Yeah, some people kind of resting on their laurels, resting on the fact that they had so much demand from their clients coming out of COVID that they started cutting back on some of those things that really make the experience great and enjoyable. ⁓ And I think that we've got to bring that back. I have been seeing that a lot of people just in...
for
you know, kind of what I glean out there. I like to talk to my friends about their experiences in other salons. So I know what's going on kind of out there. And like when I go to a party and I meet somebody new, I actually talk about where they go, their experience. It seems like people are now bringing customer service back into it. But for bit there, it was pretty dicey. You know, I was hearing...
Thank
Yeah.
It was and I think
it was so like ⁓ the conversations online were wild. I was like, this is the wild west of the beauty industry right now. Because I think it was it was so much like, I'm taking my power back, which listen, I think I think that's important. But also
Yes, that's right.
I like to, you know, when when I'm having these discussions, I do like to just like gently remind people we are in a service industry. And I know that that's hard for people to hear for whatever. I don't know why, because it's like you chose this industry. But I that's not to be confused with being treated poorly. I don't want I don't want that to get confused. But
we provide a service. are in customer service, really, right? The clients, you know, I look at it like now I went from having one boss when I was at a commission salon to now I have 250 bosses, which are my clients, because if they're not happy, I'm out of a job with them. So
That's right. That's right.
That's just how I look at it. And I know that there's kind of like the different generations of hairstylists are like not always vibing. And it's really like interesting to watch, you know, from like the sidelines. But ⁓ yeah, I think customer service has to come back in a major way, in a major way. And I do feel it. I do feel like we're getting we're getting back. We're getting back.
I think so too, ⁓ to your point about getting your power back or whatever, with the forms, the applications to become a client, with all of these boundaries, all of these penalties, if the client does this penalty, if the client does that, and people were really leaning into this. And I remember having conversations with guests here on the podcast where,
Really.
you know, they were implementing these types of things and ⁓ that might work for some people and, but not for a lot of other people. And I think we're in an environment now where ⁓ not everyone can afford a luxury service, you know, and I think you're right. I think these are luxury services, hopefully attainable luxury, ⁓ but it needs to be an enjoyable experience as well.
Yeah.
And I think we got away from that for a little bit. Hopefully we're bouncing back and we can kind of meet the market in a good place where, yeah.
I think so too. I think
policies are important and I'm not knocking anyone who does that. But I do like to say that, and again I'm not perfect, but
I have quote a policy, right? A cancellation or a late cancellation and a no show policy. I've never once had to enforce those policies because I feel like I respect my clients and their time just as much as I want them to respect mine. So we still have like in our world, there's still humanity, there's still kindness that I feel like if I'm running on time and they never have to wait for me, they return that favor to me. And maybe it's just the clients that I have, but I feel like I
I put so much respect into them that I've never felt like, ⁓ I have to enforce these policies because it doesn't happen very often in that someone, you know, kind of does me dirty. That's to say that it doesn't happen to people when they it's not warranted, but you know what I mean.
Yeah, now that's...
Yeah,
absolutely. Do you have any horror stories?
of course. I mean, one day I'll write a book. No, I mean, truthfully, not with clients. I've had a I've had a couple. I had one that like all the red flags were there. And I was someone who just like blew past all the red flags and was like, I'm going all in. And then, of course, she burned me in a major way, just like I had seen her burn her esthetician, her plastic surgeon, her, you know what I mean? When you're like, this is going to be me one day. And it was so that was kind of my major. Like when I think about
⁓
⁓
And I think a lot of it had to do with mental health. You know, there was a lot of factors at play, but, ⁓ you know, there's always been over the years where you're like, ⁓ or maybe like there's been years there's been memories that I screwed up someone's hair. You know what I mean? That you're like, ⁓ not not my finest hour. But no, I mean, nothing terrible. I will say when I was working more in New York and I was working with models and runway models and I was doing New York Fashion Week, I have way more stories from that.
Yeah.
I bet.
I'm just
I bet.
like very difficult designers, very difficult models, very difficult agents. So that was that that's a wild time for sure.
Yeah, I bet. Any last words for the community?
I just think like let's all like let's all come together. Let's do let's do the thing. Let's provide good services, provide good education. And I think we can really make our industry great. I think this like online situation and all that it's not always our best look. So let's let's keep it. Let's keep it cute. You know what I mean?
Yeah, the make in front of clients thing. think that's got to stop. it, it has.
I think that is going away. think enough people
like feel gross about it, but for a while I was like, okay, you know, it was a lot.
Yeah.
You know, we've had kind of a desire to do an episode where we get people to talk about their worst client experiences and we haven't done it. Just because I feel like, ⁓ maybe a little bit too, you know.
Yeah.
get it. I think like, I think for a
while for a lot of people, the client shaming was almost like our therapy, like, but we forgot that like, clients can see it, right? Like, it's not our own private, like message group, like we were like airing all of it out. And it wasn't a good look, I don't think so.
Yeah.
Right?
Alright.
Mm-mm, mm-mm.
Well, this has been great, Morgan. Thanks for the time, and I think the listeners enjoyed this conversation.
Same, thank you.
I hope so, thanks so much.

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Ep. 414 • Is Hustle Culture Necessary or Toxic? w/ Morgan Thomas

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 414 • Is Hustle Culture Necessary or Toxic? w/ Morgan Thomas