Chat with Oscar Ramos, Partner at SOSV

Join Joel Palathinkal and Oscar Ramos as they explore Oscar's journey to SOSV and his move to China. Discover how he adapted to the culture and language, and gain insights into the evolving startup ecosystems in China and Europe. Oscar shares his experiences with regional differences and the Great Firewall, comparing Western and Chinese design preferences. They discuss the importance of data-driven decisions in app development and tailoring products for local markets. The episode also covers the transition from startup to scale-up, the role of venture capital, and supporting corporates and startups in China.

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
In this episode of the podcast, we meet OscarRamos, who is a partner at SOSB, a venture
capital firm located in China.
Oscar is an experienced manager with a strongtechnical background, innovative business
vision, and entrepreneurial experience.
He has worked for multinationals and innovativestartups and has ten plus years of operational

(00:25):
experience in Mainland China, an extensivenetwork in TMT industry across Europe and Asia.
It's 07:30AM in New York City.
It's it's, what time over there?
08:30?
It's 07:30PM in Shanghai.
So we're exactly twelve hours different.
It's just I'm drinking a coffee, and you'redrinking what?

(00:46):
A beer?
I'm grabbing a beer.
Yeah.
We have craft beer in the office.
So it's happy hour time.
Happy hour people move somewhere else.
Yeah.
Some some they continue work working.
Some of them, are going to have their livesexercise, always very important.
And I'm here, like, very, very happy to be ableto connect with all of you guys.

(01:06):
Yeah.
And the good thing is, you know, I'm a morningperson.
So, you know, I think we're both, bothenergetic here.
But, you know, you're with SOSV.
We're actually you know, you and I are lookingat a deal together that I'm excited about.
So before we get, you know, deeper into, youknow, the portfolio companies you guys are
looking at and, your structure, you know, we'dlove to learn a little more about you, you

(01:27):
know, where you grew up, where you studied,and, how you ended up in, you know, SOSV.
Yeah.
Well, some I'm I'm Spanish.
I was born in Madrid, raised in Barcelona.
I spent a third of my life in, in Barcelonathen.
Mhmm.
I moved back to Madrid.
We spent another third of my life.

(01:47):
And, and then the last third, I actually spentit in Shanghai.
So it's been, it's been thirteen years for mealready, you know, in Shanghai.
There's also a couple of years that I I live inother part in other parts of the world.
So but I spent most of my initial, like, yearsof my life in, in Spain where I I mean, I went
to school and, and, and then eventually, once Istep I I I worked there always in a relatively

(02:13):
international environment in in r and d for,for multinationals.
Mhmm.
And, and then in one of my one of my roleswhere I was working in, like, Telefonica and
the r and d department, I had, like, theopportunity to start working on something
called business model innovation.
So we had a bunch of engineers working on, onsomething that was pretty cool, like, new new,

(02:38):
new radio frequency technologies for, thatcould potentially enable new products.
That itself was like, hey.
It's not just about the technology.
It's actually about what you build.
So that moved me closer to the user and made mesay, well, it doesn't matter if you can build
it if nobody wants it.
But what really popped my mind was when we hadto think about, yeah, you know, as an operator,
we need to think about everything that willpotentially be profitable.

(03:01):
So Sure.
That was in the early two thousand, in Februaryyeah.
02/2001, I think, or February.
And, and, so we had this bunch of engineersthat already had, like, oh, fuck.
It's not about the technology only.
We need to think about the business.
And I thought it was interesting enough.
So I started to look into this idea of businessmodel, and nobody was really working on that.

(03:23):
I I didn't find anything that was interestinguntil I found, like, a PhD student that was
working on trying to identify the differentelements of a business model.
And I found that explanation super clear, superinteresting.
That was Alex Osterwalder.
That was, I think at that time, the businessmodel campus concept didn't exist.

(03:44):
So that was that opened my mind.
And, and from there, I jumped frommultinationals to startups.
And, well, the whole thing didn't neverstopped.
So you work in startup, then you wanna buildyour own startup, move to China to find the
opportunity and, and work in a in a in a marketwhere there were a lot of options.

(04:05):
And, what Why'd you move to China out of allthe other countries?
What what, you know, triggered your decision tomove there specifically?
So this is this this is kind of, like, verydangerous family dinners where, where you're
talking about everything.
Sure.
It was it was like a a Christmas two thousandseven.
And, I know so in my family, I'm kind of like alike a black sheep.

(04:28):
Now everybody in my family studied, like,humanities or or law, psychology, and they all
they're basically, almost all of them arepublic servants.
They believe a lot in public service, so it isit is great.
But, but I'm kind of like in the opposite side.
So I started engineering, and, and I wantedalways to play more on the innovation side.
Sure.
So I was having that dinner dinner with, withmy uncle.

(04:51):
And, my uncle is is kind of, like, very, veryimportant person in in in terms of influencing
me.
So he's an engineer, and he's an entrepreneur,himself.
And He was also a
black sheep as well out of the family.
Well, in his family, in his family is differentthings.
So he's he's the he's my my father's sisterhusband.
So we're we're related, but it's not like Sure.

(05:12):
Blood relation.
So his family is more of an entrepreneurialfamily versus your family that's a little more
conservative.
Yep.
Yeah.
And, and and basically, he said, you know, Iwas we're stuck talking about moving to The US,
and he said, well, if I were your age, I'llmove to China.
And, he never came to China during his life.
He just thought, you know, that's interesting.
One week after that dinner, me and and, andback in the day, my my my girlfriend, we

(05:37):
decided to make the move.
And we we it took us, like, a month tobasically wrap up everything and move to China
to build something.
We don't know what.
We don't know we don't know anything about it.
But, that was what propelled the change.
And we'll
long term moved, were they, you know, theregion where you moved to in China, did they

(05:57):
speak English or did you have to, you know,actually learn the language?
So I moved to Shanghai, which probably is oneof the cities where, English is more
accessible.
But I can tell you that that the level ofEnglish that is spoken right now is not the
same.
So I moved here before the Olympics, which kindof, like, changed and and and and improved the

(06:18):
the overall, level of English across thecountry.
Mhmm.
And then the expo in 2010 also changed inShanghai.
So, basically, I had to learn a lot of Chineseto be able to get by.
I am actually, a more a lot of a lot of myChinese was learned back in the day.
I also like to be able to be self sufficientand do things on on my own.
So is, Chinese a difficult language to master,but, it's actually not that difficult to be

(06:42):
able to get by.
Because grammar is very simple and, and there'sa lot of words that are kind of, like, generic
enough that you can use for a lot of, practice.
And, and then fluent Mandarin,
pretty much?
I I don't speak fluent Mandarin, but I canbasically get by and do whatever I want.
Sure.
Got it.
My first my first I love food.
So my first motivation to learn to read was tobe able to go to restaurants that didn't have

(07:06):
English menus.
Yeah.
So I could so I knew I knew the the thecharacter for for a chicken, but then Mhmm.
Are you eating, like, chicken legs, chickenwings, chicken what?
Like, because China has a very rich cuisinewhere they eat everything.
I bet.
So you might end up having, like, a very weirdtype of, dish.
It's chicken, but you don't wanna know what isa part.
Yeah.
Sure.
So so that was kind of, like, what what mademade me doing that.

(07:29):
And now, like, for, your life is way easier.
If you can use Chinese apps, your life is muchbetter.
So, like, you can do that.
Mandarin as well?
Yeah.
I can read.
I can type.
I can I can I can participate in my my kids?
So my kids go to local schools, so I canparticipate in the meetings, which is what
probably my my latest achievement and and whatI feel the most proud of.
I can go to the parent parent teacher meetingsand, and be able to participate and understand

(07:54):
80% of what they talk about.
Yeah.
No.
That's amazing.
I mean, it's, you know, there's just a veryrich, you know, ecosystem there and, you know,
just you you can just imagine all the techcompanies that are booming over there.
So, I mean, there's a lot of opportunity.
I guess, why did your uncle recommend to go toChina?
Was there something specific, or a specificreason?
Or was it just that, you know, he just thoughtit was exciting and he just saw a lot of

(08:17):
opportunity there?
Was he doing business there?
He was not really doing business here.
I mean, he was sourcing a little bit fromChina, but never never came here, never had any
kind of business.
But the way he thought about it is, you know,The US is is obviously, we were talking about
thirteen years ago.
Sure.
And even today is a place where I mean, I'vebeen I I traveled back to The US in the past.

(08:38):
I had a lot of connections.
I had a lot of dealings with, with The US.
Yeah.
But, but very limited exposure to Asia.
So his point was like, you know, you go there.
Whatever you do, you're gonna get exposure toan an area of the world that is rising right
now.
It's racing, and it's gonna be it's gonna beplaying an important role in the future.
Yes or yes?
I don't think I I mean, I he maybe was thevisionary.

(09:01):
I I wasn't.
I just Sure.
Came here because I thought it was a a aninteresting option.
And I thought, you know, it doesn't matter whathappens.
Like, couple of years into the future, ifthings don't work out, you can always come to
come back to Europe and, you know, Europe willbe here.
Then the crisis keep in twenty o and and Europewas not really there.
And, and then I discovered, like, theopportunity here.

(09:23):
No.
And it was, it was amazing.
Yeah.
That was a early stage of the startup communitywhere where it was so easy to get access to
people.
It was so easy to get connect with people.
The the start up the English speaking ex, startup community was relatively small.
Mhmm.
And and you could, like, hang out with the withthe, like, the American or overseas educated,

(09:48):
founders of some start ups that they wanted toplay football.
You know?
And they thought, hey.
We've got the Spanish superstar to play in theleague where you have, like, all the all the
top, tech companies in in Beijing that wereplaying football together.
So Sure.
That was like a very that was like a veryinteresting, like, opportunity.
And and then you were able to see the speed ofthings, how everything has was changing so so

(10:10):
fast.
I mean, I came here and remember, first time Itried to buy tickets online, it was impossible
to pay online.
So I had to book the tickets online, wait for aperson to come to my home with the tickets, and
then I had to pay that person cash.
That was the only way to pay online.
If you look at China today and digitalpayments, the the the way they they they

(10:31):
leapfrog everything and, and and how it hasfixed.
Pretty much.
Right?
Yeah.
It's it's mobile first.
It's digital, cashless payments, perfectlyintegrated into society.
So but that I mean, that for me, that thatchange was a year.
So the wall is realizing about this right now.
But Mhmm.
But in a year, everything went from a fromyeah.

(10:52):
You you have to pay this person with with cashMhmm.
To you had detailed payments enabled in a in aquite secure way, very, very flexible that were
accessible in lots of different places.
And those were originally a bit more restrictedto the online world, but very fast they moved
to the offline world, and that was a gamechanger.

(11:13):
Sure.
And then how is it in Europe?
You know, has has Europe had been, you know,kind of overcoming the issues that they had
couple years ago?
And then, you know, just specifically in Spain,you know, how is that you know, because I I'm
I'm only asking because I think I spoke to youa couple couple weeks ago.
I actually traveled to Spain, you know, had areally good time.
But, you know, it didn't really hang out in thetech ecosystems.
You know, went through the more of the touristyareas.

(11:34):
So maybe you can talk a little bit about, aboutSpain and, you know, that region as well and
just kinda how that's Mhmm.
That's evolving and then just Europe ingeneral.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, we as a as a as a company, wehave a global as a as a company, we have a
global, global investment approach.
So Sure.
We are based in Asia, and we obviously have alot of Asia exposure, and we're in China.

(11:56):
So we have a lot of exposure to China.
But we look at everything globally.
So, in the last year, I actually made quite afew investments in, in Europe, particularly
made a few investments in, in Spain.
So the the tech ecosystem, in Europe isobviously not as developed.
And and there's certain reasons for that.
You know that like, you talk about Europe, butEurope is a group of countries.

(12:20):
And, even if the European region is the largestmarket in the world, you don't have the same
level of of unification that you have in otherparts of the world.
Yeah.
You have different languages.
You have different vendors, differentproviders.
Like, everything is quite fragmented from thatfrom that point of view.
The regulations help out a lot, but, but forcertain types of businesses, still does not

(12:43):
have the way that the approach that you have ina market like US.
Sure.
Or China, where you can get, like, 300,000,000users, a billion users with the same language,
the same payment systems, the same logistics.
Is is very, very, very fragmented.
And, and and that creates a challenge for, forcompanies that want to that want to scale and

(13:04):
become relatively large.
Then I I had a feeling sometimes in Europe thatso in Europe, we don't talk about venture
capital.
We talk about risk capital.
So whereas in certain markets, you think moreabout the potential, return of taking that,
like embarking yourself in this in thisjourney.
In, in Europe still, the the the riskperception is relatively high.

(13:28):
No?
And that's something that is slowly changingand, is changing for, for the better.
No?
We have a
Yeah.
We have a list a a Spanish company that waslisted in Nasdaq couple of weeks ago.
We have another unicorn.
Our company became a unicorn also, like, in inthe last month.
Yeah.
So to a certain degree, the fact that the thethis this current economic downturn happened

(13:53):
made the cost of opportunity for for talent tostart companies, lower.
So there's more people building companies rightnow.
And, and it there is a a very strongcompetitive advantage because this talent that
is is very, very cheap.
Like, the access to talent in Spain is is superaffordable.
It it happened in other parts of of of, ofEurope too.

(14:13):
No?
But I have more exposure to to to Spain.
You have people that have experience managing,international teams across multiple time zones,
different cultures, etcetera.
So that makes it a very, very interesting,area.
I'm I'm actually very positive about, whatcould come from, from Europe in in the years
ahead.
I think one of the key things is decide thatthey need to look at the wall in a bit more

(14:37):
global way.
Sure.
And, and realize that that opportunity is,sometimes your your next market might not be
the one that is next to you.
Mhmm.
So thinking about that strategic move could bequite, quite quite interesting.
Yeah.
And I think a lot of the people that are more,you know, risk risk friendly, you know, most of
them probably would you say most of them arestill leaving Spain, because of the, you know,

(14:59):
the perception of risk capital, you know youknow, even your family.
Right?
You guys are a little more conservative.
Look.
My family is the same.
Right?
My dad worked for the government, you know, fortwenty five years.
My mom was a nurse.
So, you know, everything that I did, my parentsthought was really risky.
You know?
And, I pretty much did every I did the oppositeof everything that my parents advised me to do,

(15:20):
and and I'm happy that I did.
I mean, I listened to them about a lot ofthings, but, you know, with my career, you
know, not to, like, put my parents on blastpublicly on the Internet.
I love my parents.
But, but, you know, look, I love my parents,you know, and I and I'm grateful for, my
upbringing and just an amazing childhood.
But, a lot of times too, you have to you gottamake your own destiny.

(15:43):
Right?
And I think it's interesting because I had anuncle that was, like, the poster child.
You know?
He he was an engineer.
He got his, he got his masters, and then heworked at a very stable company for, like,
thirty years.
You know?
So, the reason why I moved to New York, I thinkone time when I didn't even have a job was
because, you know, the the potential, you know,the potential opportunity that and you're

(16:07):
betting on yourself.
Right?
Even if did you have a job lined up when youmoved to China, or you just, move there and try
to figure it out?
No.
No.
I mean, I came here to build a company.
I I didn't have a job.
You didn't have a job?
I didn't have a job.
I actually changed my destination two weeksbefore like, one week before landing in China,
I changed my destination.

(16:27):
So originally, I was moving to Shenzhen, whichis relatively warm weather, and I arrived in
Shanghai, and it was snowing.
Sure.
So I didn't even have the right clothes to toto land in China.
So, I mean, the the story of coming here was abit like I mean, I survived it.
No.
And whatever whatever whatever does not, like,destroy you, make you stronger.
And that's that's what happened.
No.
That created this feeling of resilience thatnow we need to make it happen.

(16:49):
It needs to it needs to be something that, thatI wanna do.
So from that point, it'll be that was a thatwas a great experience.
And, and and it it allowed me to to to have,like, this certain freedom to once you are in
an uncomfortable situation, you know, okay.
I just need to find something.
And and that that helped me to learn a lot bydoing, exploring things, and, and not be really

(17:14):
tied to anything specific, which I think wasgreat to be able to change the perceptions of,
what we wanted to do.
I did I did have, like, some projects, so Ididn't came came totally empty handed.
When I was moving, basically, he said, okay.
Let I'm gonna let everybody that I know Yeah.
Know that I'm gonna be here in case there'sanything I can do to help out.
And, and that was how I had, like, my firstprojects that allow me to learn by doing,

(17:37):
explore opportunities, and, and eventuallyconnect with the with the SSB community.
That was Yeah.
Being part of that, being part of that, ofthat, that very dynamic ecosystem of people
trying to to build things helped me connectwith the with the with the founder of Chant
Accelerator Wow.
Ten years ago.
Yeah.
And, and then, originally, I joined as a mentorof, of the program, and I got involved into

(18:03):
into the into the process.
I was building my own companies, had somesuccess.
I I raised a small fund, started to make some,some investments, with that.
Things went relatively okay.
But, but I did realize that I was missingreally the the start up the the billing
process, and and and be able to get more moremy my hands dirty to to to to the things.

(18:26):
I'd, like, rub my sleeves and and get get
to the
list of things.
And it's just when you're in that community,there's so many startups.
They're trying to do so many things.
They're always, managing a never ending to dolist.
Right?
So if you can come in and help some of thosestartups, you can just learn by doing, and then
eventually, you can probably charge people forservices.

(18:47):
Right?
Once you become an expert at SEO because youdid it for free, now you have an SEO company.
Right?
And same thing if you know how to doprototypes.
And I do this sometimes too just as a as a funlittle side gig.
You know, I help people with their pitch decksand and, and then, you know, I've just learned
over the years how to build a prototype, andthat's a skill.
You know?
And, I I can imagine, you know, what what aresome of the skills that you picked up by doing,

(19:11):
maybe in your early days when you just kindaimmersed yourself in the community?
Well, I mean, I I brought already I broughtalready a few skills that were directly
applicable.
So, as a as an engineer, I was always reallygood at fast prototyping.
Yeah.
So building things really fast was somethingthat, that, like, hack something together.
That's something that I I I was doing even whenI was back back in school.

(19:32):
That was one of my all my hobbies.
No.
And then and then, like, I also spent some timeworking in in medical devices, which is Oh,
nice.
You could say that is on one stream is the fastprototyping where you wanna test things really
fast.
But at the end of the day, you cannot deliverup up any medical device that is not tested on
every single area that could fail.
No?
Yeah.

(19:53):
And, so, like, also being very detail orientedand and be able to find, like, issues in in
products or, or be able to to find, like, bagsor or things that might break, that was also
something that, that was really good.
So call me and say, hey.
I have those skills.
And, I also did some work on on product as a Ilove medical devices or medical systems.

(20:17):
Yeah.
They would require multi stakeholder.
So you've got the doctor, you have the patient,you have the family, you have the nurses.
There's so many angles that you need toconsider that, that you can have a really good
functionally valuable product that nobody usesbecause it's scary or because it's not easy to
use or because it doesn't support whoever'sagenda.

(20:38):
So bringing that, that was really good.
What I think was really great for me was toapply those skills in the in the in the actual
Chinese market.
And, and be able to get a very deepunderstanding, hands on understanding on how
different things were here.
And, and be able to feel and, and and and andlearn with direct interaction with the with the

(21:02):
market.
That was really was what was great.
So I get to travel, to explore areas, to, workin different industries, to to to test things
in a real environment.
And, so that that was really what more morethan picking up new skills, it was more about
localizing those skills because that's that'swhat happens in a in a in China.

(21:25):
Your your existing skills are obviously acompetitive advantage, but believing that
everything that you know how it works is gonnatranslate and transfer directly to this market
is what makes a lot of companies that comefrom, I mean, outside to to fail here.
I mean, you need to be a bit more humble andunderstand that that when certain things are

(21:45):
done differently in China, it's not becausethere's no skill for it.
Yeah.
Because there's so many situations wherethere's actually a lot of skill.
There's probably a reason behind.
So when when I came here, a lot of the websiteswere designed was actually from a from a from a
Western design perspective, they were reallybad.
Yeah.
Everything was crammed, and there was, like, alot of flashy lights, everywhere.

(22:08):
But if you understand how was the Internet backin the day, and you understand the density of
information that that Chinese people is used toget when they read a book, you'll you'll
realize that it's actually not that it's notthat bad.
It's just that to be able to to to work on yourcustomer shoes, the first thing that you need
to do is you need to take away yours.

(22:29):
You take out yours.
And that was a key thing.
Like, you look into a a a book, the Englishversion would be like this.
The the Chinese version would be like this.
And and it's the same content.
It's just that the density of information thatthat Chinese language has is being high.
So a lot of Chinese people is used to handlethat density of information.
Mhmm.
And, and that doesn't look as as, as bad from aSure.

(22:51):
From a from their perception.
You know, I'd love to just unpack, the regionsof China, you know, and just kind of understand
a little more about the ecosystem.
So you're in Shanghai.
You know, just tell me the dynamics of thedifferent regions.
I mean, I can imagine some of the there's justpolarizing differences between some of the the
regions.
Right?
So can you just unpack the ecosystem?

(23:13):
Like, you know, biggest differences betweenHong Kong and Shanghai and, you know, other
regions, of that area, especially with the techecosystem and then with the innovation
ecosystem.
I have people in my program that, that are inHong Kong, but, you know, people have just told
me that that there's just so much opportunity,in Mainland China.

(23:33):
The challenge is, you know, with the platformthat I'm building, right, people don't use
people don't use WhatsApp.
People don't use Zoom.
People don't use Facebook.
So, there you I from my understanding, if if Ireally wanna build what I'm building and make
it hyperlocal to Mainland China, I really needto translate it into, like, all of the the
tools and and platforms that they use there.

(23:55):
That's that's my initial perspective if I wereto, you know, kinda build, you know, what I'm
building there.
But, you know, I would love to learn yourperspective on on that, observation and then
just in general how the tech ecosystem isspread out all through, China and then maybe
even, like, some some other parts of Asia.
Well, I mean, I could get really, reallygranular on on that.

(24:15):
That's basically my my my day to day.
Nobody
Yeah.
Can you speak to anybody else?
I think it's important because I'm, you know,I'm all the way in New York.
A lot of other people in the audience, they're,you know, some of them are in The US, some of
them are in Europe.
So we don't, you know, that's the thing.
Right?
We don't know the granular details of thehyperlocal environments.
Right?
We we read stuff in the news and we talk tofriends on on Slack, but, you're there in the

(24:37):
weeds.
You know?
You know exactly what's happening kinda, like,in that in that region.
So, you know, I think that'd be really helpfulif you have any insights on that.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, there's definitely a very bigdifference between, between Mainland China and,
and and everything else.
Like, the fact that, that you have, certainlimitations.
So you are in one side of the firewall and youare in the the other side of the firewall.

(24:59):
Yeah.
Things would be things could be very different.
So the payment systems are different.
The social networks are are different.
The common habits here are are very are verydifferent.
And and firewall is a is a limitation.
A question asked about about that.
But a lot of these solutions that are that arehyperlocal in China, they have a something that
makes them very unique.

(25:19):
They are extremely localized, and they'rethey're large enough.
The volume of business that that some of thesecompanies have in China, doesn't make them
doesn't does not they don't have to to expandanywhere else to be able to reach the volume,
to be able to go public.
Yeah.
There's just so many people.
Yeah.
Like, well, I was looking through something.
Like, I think right now, 50% of the globalecommerce is happening in in in Mainland China.

(25:44):
Wow.
So, like, I mean, as an ecommerce company Mhmm.
If you have a market where you have 50% of theglobal ecommerce market at your fingertips,
And, and you know there's certain barriers ofentry because even if if foreign companies can
operate in the in the ecommerce space here, theit is just different that you'll have to
integrate.
It's not just the payments.

(26:05):
It's also the the the logistics systems willwork will work differently.
The user experience that you have to createwill be very different.
The way you display your products could becould be very different.
Yeah.
There's so many things that could be differentthat sometimes One
one thing I'll say too, this this reminds me ofsomething before I forget.
So the UI so I spoke to a friend of mine thatwas from Mainland China.

(26:26):
And, you know how, like, when you look atGoogle and you look at some of these websites,
right, there's a lot of white space.
It looks really clean, you know, like flatdesign.
Right?
In China and correct me if I'm wrong.
This is my feedback, that I got.
So in China, you know, they they wanna theywanna use up all of the real estate.
So, like, none of the space is wasted.

(26:46):
So for us, like, you and I, you know,especially you're at the accelerator.
Right?
Like, all the all the apps and websites need tobe beautiful.
Right?
It needs to be, like, minimal design.
But the feedback I got was in China, it's likeit the websites are very, very busy because
they wanna make use of, like, every singlepixel of real estate.
Is that is that something you've noticed as faras kind of the design?
I mean, that that that's what used to happen.

(27:08):
That was what what used to surprise.
So Yeah.
It is not so at the end of the day, what peoplewant is something that is valuable for them.
Yeah.
So value is something that, that is veryrelative.
So design has an element of value Mhmm.
As as much as it is usable and and andpractical.
So, like, UI and UX are are they kind of gohand in hand.

(27:30):
But you can have something that that is from aUI perspective is beautiful, but from a UX
perspective is horrible.
And, and it's difficult to use.
So at the end of the day, usability iscritical.
But I think that that that approach is I mean,today, websites in China actually not very
relevant.
Mhmm.
Most of the the the the Internet in China ismobile.
China is a mobile first.

(27:51):
For a lot of things, it's a mobile only typeof, of platform.
Even for me, as a foreigner, I still remember Imean, most of my interaction with the Chinese
Internet, which I have every day multiple timesMhmm.
Happens through mobile.
Yeah.
So I don't remember last time.
So when I do grocery shopping, I'll do it on mymobile phone.
When I do when I buy anything on online, it'sgonna be in my in my mobile phone.
In fact, like, almost any transaction that Iwork on, I do it on my phone.

(28:15):
So if you look at that, from from thatperspective
Yeah.
I think that the UX and the UI of Chinese appsis just far superior to the the UX and the UI
that you have in in in Western apps.
Sometimes Sure.
I I actually feel a bit frustrated when I haveto use some of the some of the Western, apps.
Yeah.
I feel frustrated because I I find this there'ssometimes so many, like like like, like walls

(28:42):
and and so many friction points Yeah.
That that in a very Chinese market is extremelycompetitive.
So Sure.
Anything that creates friction is very, verycompetitive.
Anything that creates friction will basicallybe a killer.
Yeah.
You need to make
sure you whatever goal you're trying toachieve, it needs to happen in maybe one step.
Yeah.
Versus now, you know, some of these apps thatyou, you know, use in in in The US or other

(29:03):
countries, it's, like, just to change a settingor just to change something, you gotta maybe
tap four times.
Right?
But you're you're saying in China, because it'sso competitive, it needs to it needs to
literally just happen immediately.
Right?
Yep.
Yep.
And and Chinese Chinese app developers and andare are masters of data driven decisions.
Yeah.

(29:24):
So, I mean, there's a I remember, like, one ofmy friends, he so he built a couple of
companies, exited in China, Mainland China.
He exited both of them.
And, and then for his third company, he wantedto build a company in India.
India is another, like, pretty large, data,like, mobile first and mobile only market.
It's it's it's it's it's large.

(29:45):
Southeast Asia is another relevant market, butSoutheast Asia has the same issue that Europe
has.
There's a lot of fragmentation, and and so thisis even is even more difficult because it's
basically a bunch of islands.
So many islands that even even commune makesthings a bit more more difficult.
But India is is a relatively large market.
It's early.
And and some of the the way that the Indianmarket is developing is way the Internet market

(30:08):
and cyber market is developing is way closer tothe way the Chinese market developed back in
back in the day.
You know?
So he built a company in, in, in India.
And, because China has so much talent, andskill in in terms of of mobile app development
and and the UX element of of it.
They were running things in languages theydidn't know.

(30:31):
Mhmm.
And, just based on data.
You have enough users and you start testing ina very systematic way.
You can get apps very, very, very solid thatactually work extremely well with, with
concepts that sometimes are are relativelyforeign.
So So remember him telling telling a story.
No.
We had a we had a with our program, with thecompanies in our in our batch.

(30:53):
They he came to share share a bit about a datadriven, design and data driven product
management.
And he was sharing a story about about howIndia has a lot of languages.
So even if India is a large market, there's alot of small languages, internally.
And although English is spoken in, in the moreeducated, group of, of people commonly spoken,

(31:15):
in certain part of population, English is notas common.
But they had in this app, which was targetingmass market, they had all the all the, like,
local languages plus English.
So speaking English is a sign of status.
If you have your apps in English, it, it willmake you, oh, you you speak English.
Well, so you have, like, better education,etcetera.

(31:37):
So they run a test.
They saw that a lot of the the data showed themthat a lot of the users, they changed the usage
pattern of the app once they changed toEnglish.
So they have a usage level.
They changed to English and the usage levelgoes down.
And, and they realized that the problem wasthat they were having the app in English to
look better, but then they couldn't use itbecause they couldn't understand, actually.

(32:00):
So Sure.
By by removing English as an option Mhmm.
Usage of the app basically, like, tripled.
Yeah.
And that's something that they found becausethey literally just use the data to to to the
data show them something, that took them tohave some customer interviews and, and see how

(32:21):
people use the product.
And that got to that those customer interviewstold them, okay.
There's an issue here.
So let let's try this.
They tried, and it worked perfectly.
So That's right.
Like, these type of things are are so embeddedin, and and some people will look at this and
say, like, hey.
Why don't you have English?
That's that's a good that's bad product.
You're making the product worse.

(32:41):
Well, that's not true.
They're actually making the product morevaluable and better because since there's no
option for English, there's no pressure ofchanging the the the app into into English, and
then you can continue using the product.
Yeah.
I think look.
You you're an expert at this, but this is whatI feel too.
Right?
I mean, it's, it goes goes back to Henry Ford.
Right?
If you if you keep asking the customer whatthey want, you know, they're gonna they're just

(33:04):
gonna ask for faster horses.
Right?
So how many times do you see these founders,just not listen to their customers and just try
to make better judgment based on the data?
I mean, because a lot of times, you know, toyour point, you can't just ask your customers
what they want because half the time, theydon't even know what they want.
Right?
If you ask them, they're like, hey.
Just give me faster horses.
They don't even know about an automobile.

(33:25):
Right?
So, is that is that a common thing where theyjust focus on the data and, and, you know,
really just use their instincts to to make theproduct decisions?
I mean, you have to a lot of times.
Right?
No.
We always we always tell them that your gapwill start and your and data will decide.
Yeah.
So it doesn't matter who who I mean, if thedata says something is wrong, it's wrong.

(33:48):
But but but most of the most relevantbreakthroughs happen through conversations.
Okay?
So we always say, hey.
Conversation is very important, and youhopefully, you'll so, I mean, this this company
was doing was identifying potential areas forinterviews.
There is, like, $50,000,000.
Like, I mean, it was, like, a two time serialentrepreneur.

(34:09):
Yeah.
One exit to Baidu, one exit to Alibaba.
Wow.
I mean, he got, like, 50,000,000, dollars, witha napkin, from Tencent to to launch a company.
So, like, he didn't have any any problem interms of scale or access to Yeah.
To to data.
And he still he continue working on on, on oncustomer conversations to be able to get

(34:32):
insights that they never thought because datawill tell you data will not tell you why
something's wrong.
They just will tell you something here is is isis funny or something here is not, is not is
not working, well, but you have to then go andfind out.
And Yeah.
It's very difficult that customers will tellyou the solution.
So you get you go to a problem, assumption andand problem hypothesis.

(34:55):
And from there, you'll start having, like,solution assumptions or solution hypothesis
that you wanna prototype and test, as simple aspossible.
So for more, I'll absolutely simple.
Just fill up up, like, a AB test where you havea control group, and you you liberate this new
function to a set of a set of users, and andthen you track, behavior between the groups and

(35:16):
also the previous behavior that the that theusers, that the users had.
So and if it shows the data shows that itworks, then it works.
This is a very, very common thing, and, and itactually applies to everything.
So, like, having this empathy of ofcommunication works with, your customers, with
your partners, with your, with your investors,like, so many times with with investors.

(35:40):
Like, listening is a very, very, very valuableskill.
And and Sure.
How to actually extract information withoutguiding people.
Because you can very easily guide people.
You need to be very open, for for everyone tocriticize your your product.
So if you're very upfront, let people know whatyou're doing
Mhmm.
In in they might somehow change their way theythey talk with you because they might not be

(36:04):
willing to hurt your feelings.
So it's always better to be as agnostic aspossible
Yeah.
During these conversations.
So, ideally, people doesn't know that you'retalking exactly about this thing.
That's a good point because the data the datais also qualitative.
Right?
So the qualitative is really the conversations.
And then I think one thing I'll say too is youhave to break it up into different personas.
Right?
Because one persona may be, a married couple,and then another persona may be a millennial

(36:28):
and then a Gen z.
You know, each of them, like you said, right,have different have different workflows.
And then I think that's a good point.
When you put together the survey, you need tomake sure that you're not leading them on.
Right?
And, like, forcing them to kinda say the answerthat you want them to say.
Right?
Yep.
Well, I mean, I'm I'm not a big fan of, ofsurveys.
No.
I think that, that qualitative quantitativedata, it's it's it's it's valuable, as part of

(36:53):
an experiment.
Sure.
But, but I do believe in conversations.
Okay.
Conversations that are open as much aspossible, particularly for early stage, they're
fundamental.
And you can find so many surprises that, thatcould potentially change everything.
Even that's what you said.
No?
I mean, you define different customer segmentsand you could potentially, like, when you look

(37:14):
at data aggregated, averages in general are notvery relevant.
So when you're able to create, look, somesegmentation, you will potentially identify
that the specific type of customer thatconverts faster, that be that's more loyal,
that is less price sensitive, etcetera.
So if that customer today is is working welland is a big enough segment, it could be

(37:35):
potentially good to spend a bit more energy onon growing on on that stage.
And, and then in parallel, trying to figureout, okay, what can you do with another with a
different segment?
Yeah.
And then walk me through, you know, how you,you know, formalize your role at SOSB.
So I think you you immersed into the cultureand the ecosystem, and, looks like you were

(37:55):
helping some of the startups.
And then and then they had an opportunity foryou to, to to help run the accelerator.
Well, I mean, it was I think that I mean, therewas a couple of times in the in the past before
I decided to join, four years and a half ago.
Okay.
Full time, there were a few few opportunitiesfor me to join, but, well, things didn't work

(38:17):
out well.
Sure.
I was running my fund, then I was doing anotherstartup.
So it was not the right time.
And and I was, like, there was kind of, like,in between things.
Yeah.
I was helping one of my friends that was takinghis company public.
Mhmm.
Company was more in the
Mhmm.
In the traditional business space.
And I said, okay.
I'll help you with the transformation of thecompany and and Yeah.

(38:37):
And with the pitch to to to to the, investmentbankers for the IPO.
But, but I really want to, like, do somethingthat is a bit more like I I really wanna go
back to launch things.
And, and I realized that that was the mostinteresting part of my of my job.
So Yeah.
No problems talking with the bankers, but notmy not the thing that I I like the most, in

(39:00):
comparison with working with small ideas thatcould turn into something something amazing.
And we we I remember we launched a project thatwent from 0 to a million dollars in in in
revenue in in seven months, and we were runningthat with, like, two people and and, like, some
of my time.
And I thought this is what I like.
I mean, this is what really, like, makes mejump out of bed every single every single day.

(39:24):
And and the transformation is interesting, buthaving to once a company reaches stage with a
few hundred employees Yeah.
So much, so much culture that is more like astandard culture.
That that that was that was not my my mythinking.
So That's
a good point.
I actually I think the CEO of Dig was on ThisWeek in Startups, and, I think he's running a

(39:46):
fund now.
But he said the same thing.
He's like, look.
I love the beginning parts when you're buildingthe product, you're prototyping, and you're
just kinda creating something.
But then once you get to, you know, employees,you're really just focusing on culture.
You know, you're hiring and firing employees.
There's more there's more infrastructure.
Right?
So it's not as for some people, it's not asexciting.
So I think you're the same way.
I think I'm the same way too.

(40:07):
I don't think I would be as excited, you know,trying to pick out which air conditioner which
air conditioner unit we need to put into thebuilding or, you know, what color the floor
should be.
But I'd rather focus on the product and and,look at the data.
Right?
Look and see look and see how how fast the appis growing and look at the insights and and
focus on the customer experience.

(40:28):
So I think I'm I think I'm the same way.
Yeah.
And then, you know, so then let's talk a littlemore about SOSV.
So then you you had a couple opportunities.
Before we talk about SOSV, I'm also interestedabout the fund that you started because I
actually started an emerging manageraccelerator, a fun first time fund manager
accelerator.
So always excited to hear about, fund managers,how they got started, and then how they raised

(40:51):
capital.
And then how did you deploy the, the capitalacross, you know, the portfolio?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, the I mean, that that those twoopportunities joining SSB eventually led for me
to join to replicate exactly, so joining SSBwhere it's an accelerated VC gives you the the
advantage of being, early stage investor Mhmm.

(41:12):
And at the same time being very hands on.
Yeah.
So that was one of the things that I missedwhen I was running my my fund.
Yeah.
So that originally started so when I was when Iwas billing, my initial companies here, I was,
I was potentially exploring, raising somecapital for these companies.
But, I I I thought, okay.
I mean, I I I will raise money once I havesomething that is worth funding.

(41:35):
Sure.
And, and in that process, I connected with,with, with some of, with some people that was
in the in the space.
And, and eventually, we kind of reached the thethe the the conclusion that there was a
actually a really big opportunity, investing inearly stage Chinese startups.

(41:56):
Back in the day, it was very, very there was alot of investment.
So the the Chinese venture capital marketstarted instead of starting from the from the
bottom and, and small investments, it actuallystarted the opposite way.
So the initial in and understanding venturecapital as a subset of, of the asset class of
private private equity.
Mhmm.
The initial private equity investments in Chinawere literally very large companies that were

(42:22):
either state owned and then we're goingprivatized or relatively large companies that
were managed, not very efficiently.
So you could actually have venture capitalreturns with private equity investments by
investing in those companies, working in in allof them just to streamline the process, making
sure everything was clear, and then packagingimproperly and take them public.

(42:45):
Okay?
But so because it wasn't starting that way,people was going, basically downstream as they
were less pre IPO deals.
They were working, okay, let's do bigger deals,bigger deals with because there were enough
companies looking for for that opportunity.
So I saw that app, and, so I partnered with,with a fund, back in Spain, and they became my
anchor.

(43:05):
Oh, nice.
Okay.
So they were
in the fund,
and then they just kind of were an LP in youryour micro fund, I guess.
Right?
How much were you raising for the fund?
So we're raising 5 mil.
Okay.
And, and, so and and that was that was theinitial anchor.
Then I got other people.
So I connected with people.
I connected with some of the LPs in the fund.

(43:26):
Yeah.
That also said to bug me individually.
That's right.
I connect with some some high net worth,individuals in, in the fund.
And, and we're always trying to look for dealswhere we were invited to the so at the
beginning, we're trying to be a bit moreaggressive in terms of leading deals.
But, that I mean, we actually it was not bad.

(43:47):
We had a we had a deal that did really, reallywell.
We had an opportunity to exit the company with,40 x return, two years into the deal.
Yeah.
But, but the founders didn't wanted to sell.
And and it was a long story that could lead fora whole podcast just talking about how this
became horrible.
But it was it was back in the day the largestsocial network for football fans in China.

(44:11):
And, and we help them get partnerships withfootball teams, football clubs from, from
Europe.
So things went really well, but there was someclash with state on media, etcetera.
Eventually, everything, we should have sold,but we did not.
And it could have been, like, an amazingreturn, but that didn't happen.
So that that's a case where we we took a leadin that company, but we could bring in

(44:33):
something that that made a difference for thecompany.
So we're able to get them, like like, a swagfrom the teams, partnership with the teams, and
lots of things that for them were verydifficult to acquire.
And for other people in the ecosystem were alsoa barrier of, of entry.
Then we we start to work with companies wherewith deals where we were invited to the deal
because we could bring in something on a table.

(44:55):
Yeah.
So leverage a lot.
I think very important for emerging markets toto treat your I mean, emerging managers to
treat all your LPs as as angel investors.
Sure.
So work with your LPs to see they are lookingfor potential return, but they're also having
some interest in, in what you're doing.
So communicating with, with them.
One of my LPs actually, he was a was an angelinvestor, relatively famous angel investor in

(45:20):
Europe.
He won in 02/2010.
He won, like, angel investor of the year in, inEurope, and he developed a very interesting
methodology for exits.
And and the same way that you work for with aclient for sales, thinking about planning for
exits.
No.
And then we he he was actually really, like,very solid, coaching as in terms of how to work

(45:42):
with, sales for, for, for the portfoliocompanies.
Once they reach a stage where the founders werestarting to think, okay.
Maybe that's that's that's the way that's theway to to go.
Imagine you're taking this down as a note.
So that's that's good advice.
So treat all your LPs as angels, and and andhow could they do that?
Just involve them closely on the deal and givethem all the diligence instead of just, have

(46:06):
them invest in your fund.
Right?
Because with angels, you're giving them thememo and you're giving them all the details of
your of your thesis about the company.
Is that is that what you're saying?
Well, also have conversations for them tounderstand what can they bring on the table.
In, in some cases, they might not be interestedin getting directly on the deal, but get some
exposure to it.
Learn about the learn about the industry, helpyou identify opportunities that maybe you

(46:30):
haven't thought about.
Because my my thesis was trying to findbusinesses that could have a cross border,
opportunity Sure.
Between Europe where most of my most of my LPswere in Europe.
I have a couple of them in The US.
I think couple of in in in Latin America, butmost of them were in Europe.
So the point was always, like, what Chinesecompanies have a China Europe type of, op angle

(46:52):
and try to focus on on on that area.
So having a a lot of these was coming mostlyfrom, from from the LPs.
So having that communication with them was, wasreally valuable.
And then having conversations with them, thatwas, like, critical that, you know, in that
case.
So having that communication, very important.
You also build trust.
You learn.
I got a lot of support from, from them.

(47:14):
And and I also think a lesson that I learned istrack record is everything for because raising
your first fund is is, I mean, is I'm not gonnasay super easy, but it's I think it's it's it's
easier than racing it's way easier than racingfollow on funds because you're raising the
first fund on a promise.
But then you need to show track record for thesecond and the third fund.

(47:35):
And the second might be okay if you have, likelike, book value.
If you're able to show that the companies areactually raising funding and and you have, like
but you need to realize the returns.
Yeah.
So being able to have early exceeds where youcan prove actually, liquidity and and
distribution to the LPs, I think that's that'svery, very important.
Yeah.
That's my experience.
Maybe other people has different differentexperience when you say, well, you know, I

(47:58):
mean, I I cash enough to be able to pay back tothe to the LPs, and I still maintain my
position here to continue having a bit more abit more growth.
So I had a I had a couple opportunities whencompanies raised at valuations north of a
hundred, hundred $50,000,000.
I had opportunities to to exit and,
we
didn't, because Sure.
There was obviously a potential extra featureon on those companies.

(48:24):
And then, well, one of them particularlycrashed dramatically, and we could have done we
we would have done in that case a hundred xreturn in in three years.
So So when you said that we had an opportunityto exit at a hundred million, they just did the
you just advised the company not to take theexit opportunity?
Is that No.
No.
I had it.
So one of the so, the company closed a$50,000,000 round.

(48:48):
Sure.
And, and some of the investors offered to buyout some of them because, like, when I invested
in the company, they were not even online.
So I invested on on not not paper, butprototype.
Yeah.
Sure.
It was a model that one of my LPs had a lot ofexperience.
He built one of the one of the largestcompanies in Europe running that running that
model.
So, I thought about, I mean, it was not a fullexit for the company.

(49:11):
We could have been an early exit.
Yeah.
So if if I if at that time, I could have sold,like, half of the shares.
Yeah.
That I in the in the company, that could havebeen a 50 x return overall Wow.
On on the deal realized on three years afterinvestment and still could have the potential
of the upside for the remaining part.
So Sure.

(49:32):
That that was something that, that as a as anearly manager, I think it's important to show
that that that you have because this there'sthe business of investing, but at the end of
the day, every business is about sales.
So you need to make sure that you you considerthe exit and opportunity.
And, at at the stage that we were, I thoughtthat was quite important to do.

(49:52):
Sure.
No.
So that's really helpful.
And, you know, emerging managers, it's just areally huge thing now in America.
I mean, there's there's thousands of, emergingmanagers.
Right?
And what I learned is just a couple years ago,maybe twelve years ago, I was talking to a a
manager now that is is on Fund five.
So very, very more senior.
A lot of their capital is coming frominstitutions.

(50:13):
But, you know, that this person was just sayingtwelve years ago, you could count on your hand
how many other funds there were.
Now there's thousands.
And because, you know, there's so much of alower barrier for first time fund managers to
get started and and and start a fund.
They can they can build a track record withangels.
But like you said, even if you don't know realLPs and even though you're saying that we
should treat LPs like angels, you can just geta syndicate of angels.

(50:35):
You can use AngelList.
So how is that ecosystem evolving in in EastAsia?
Are you seeing a lot more funds?
I've I've actually got two funds in my emergingmanager program that are, that are in East Asia
as well.
But, how are you seeing that ecosystem evolveon the fund side?
Yeah.
I mean, there's definitely more, I mean,there's definitely more, more more, more, like,

(50:57):
micro VCs Sure.
Or new funds that are that are happening.
I think also so that that process happened inChina, like, maybe five, seven, eight years ago
when, when suddenly, like, the number of funds,like, exploded by one order of magnitude.
There was a lot of government government, LPbacking for a lot of the fund that had a

(51:17):
massive disruption in the in the ecosystem.
But there's definitely I will not I will and II will not say the growth is that big.
Yeah.
But, but there's there's definitely more andmore, early stage funds that, that are are
happening.
Most of them, they have some specific angle toto what they do.
So I also see more specialization.
There's a few emerging fund managers in, like,female specific area.

(51:42):
There's more on the impact side of, of things.
We also look just because, a lot of myinvestments are in the in the enterprise and b
two b software, we also see a few people thathave strong experience in that area, and they
understand that that particularly early stagesof, of enterprise tech, good guidance makes a
massive difference because sales cycles arevery long.

(52:03):
And, feedback loops are also longer, and theopportunity to get feedback and conversations
from your from your, conversation with yourcustomers are also more difficult.
Navigating organizations is also morecomplicated.
So these these fund managers sometimes can makea big difference into, into companies.
No.
At least when you're when you're, like, closingyour first, like, five clients for enterprise,

(52:27):
the way you sell is very different than the wayyou when you're going to go from your first
five to to your next, like, fifteen, twenty.
Because you're selling to a relatively closergroup where you might have an internal champion
that you know directly.
But as you grow, things need to need to evolve.
It's not the way you do manage the wholecustomer journey is is very different.

(52:47):
There's also a shift from sales to retentionand make sure that you don't have churn and
this great value into so there's a lot ofshifts and the organization needs to move on
account management besides, like, developingnew accounts.
So so those are quite quite interesting.
We've seen also, a few that are morespecialized.
So
I personally like also to invest in traditionalindustries that are going through through

(53:11):
digitalization and and and technification.
So we've also seen a few that focus on onlogistics or manufacturing, construction.
Some some of these industries that are thatare, that are, like, doing pretty pretty okay.
We have good experience with some of these fundmanagers.
They come with a very strong support element toto their capital.

(53:33):
And, and I think that's that's great.
Sure.
No.
That's great.
And then, you know, real quick.
I know we got a few more minutes.
So, SOSV, maybe you can walk us through thestructure, the criteria to get in, and then,
you know, the the program.
Right?
So it's, like, three, four months, I guess.
And then and then there's a demo day, so maybejust a quick quick overview on that.
I mean

(53:53):
how to get accepted.
Yeah.
SSB is a global VC.
So we're we're a we're a, actually US VC.
We have right now almost 909 hundred milliondollars under under management.
We're very actively active investor, but all ofour investments are matched with an
accelerator.
So we're a VC that provides support.
And and for us, accelerators are the systemthat we can provide consistent, scalable

(54:17):
support to our portfolio companies.
No?
And and also the these accelerators become thethe onboarding to the platform where founders
keep to work with us.
Because we are not like traditionalaccelerators that they work with you for three,
four, six months.
We work with our companies forever.
We have a more structured way to work with thecompanies during the first few months of, of
our engagement through the the the cohorts thatthey they work together, but then we continue

(54:41):
working with the companies afterwards.
So in terms of investment, there's three mainthere's three main areas of investment that we
have.
So all of the all of the SUSB accelerators areindustry agnostic
Mhmm.
And, and geography agnostic.
So it doesn't matter where we are.
We are, investing, everywhere.
The location, has a connection with historicalreasons or strategic reasons, But that doesn't

(55:03):
mean that because we're based in Shanghai, weonly invest in Chinese companies or Asian
companies.
We invest in companies everywhere.
And this thing happens to our colleagues, inShenzhen, for hacks or hardware arm or the New
York and San Francisco for, for for biotech.
And these are actually the three areas ofspecialization.
So we have, biotech, hardware, and andsoftware.

(55:24):
So for me, I'm more involved in the software,software space where we have two main programs.
One of them is for consumer Internet where wefocus mostly on, on mobile first, mobile only
type of markets.
Mhmm.
So we do a lot of, a lot of, like, SoutheastAsia, India, Middle East, Latin America,
etcetera.
And then the one that I run from Shanghai isthe is the enterprise and b two b software,

(55:48):
which, I mean, basically, is is based on thefact that China is very, very competitive.
A lot of companies want to come to China to beable to sell or maintain their market share.
And if they are not productive here, they willlose market share.
So innovation for them is critical.
That's why a lot of companies run pilots in, inChina, and we have so many companies that are
able to get their first customers in China.

(56:09):
Oh, wow.
Getting in, from getting I mean, getting intothe programs Mhmm.
Is actually closer to how most VCs work.
The best way is to get a referral.
We have thousands of applications, every yearas, as a as as programs were more venture
capital with a platform than an accelerator.
So we look at companies that, that already haveinitial, for the software side, we're with

(56:35):
companies that have a product ready, have someinitial traction, and their help is mostly on
how can they scale.
So we work on scaling the companies.
We have a strong focus on growth Mhmm.
Helping the companies, on the b two c sideacquire users without having to pay for them.
In the b two b side, getting, pilots and newclients, as fast as possible, and in terms that

(56:59):
will create a really good foundation.
To be able to make that happen.
Well, I see this also being valuable.
I think you hit on it a few seconds ago.
Just corporates and other big startups that arejust trying to expand in China.
You know, do you guys have, like, a servicesarm or other people that can help them if they
really wanna you know, because a lot of peoplein, you know, people in New York and San
Francisco, they just don't know the ecosystem.

(57:19):
So are there support systems for just generaltech companies or just other entities to kinda
try to immerse themselves, in China?
Or are you guys only interested in startups inin China?
No.
We we invest in companies from all over theworld.
I mean, we've invested, so recently, weinvested in two companies that are based out of
San Francisco.
Okay.

(57:39):
One company out of, Montreal Sure.
And a few companies from all parts of theworld.
So we invest in companies everywhere.
Got it.
Okay.
They don't need to have a China angle.
Yeah.
But, but the fact is that once you startexploring China, you always will find out the
China angle.
Sure.
And, because China is such a big market thateven if you are a niche, even if the Chinese

(58:00):
market for you is a niche, that could bepotentially really, really large.
And and it's surprising how how this this couldhappen.
So Mhmm.
The the companies don't need to be in China.
They don't need to have a China angle, but weneed to be able to help.
Because for us, the help that we provide thecompanies is our risk reduction.
So we reduce our risk by bringing thecompanies, additional support that will help

(58:23):
them achieve something faster.
Yeah.
And and the whole the whole service is actuallyend to end.
So even if it all eventually is to scalefaster, every single company that we invested
that raises CUSA, they did so with a businessmodel that was different than the one they had
when we originally invested.
So Sure.
The first two weeks of the company, we returneverything upside down, and we look for

(58:45):
opportunities, bottlenecks, areas that could bechanged.
And, and as as we find those opportunities forchange, we start experimenting.
We start having different conversations withwith customers.
And companies start finding breakthroughs,during the first month where suddenly they
realize, oh, maybe I can try this differently.
And something suddenly works much better.

(59:06):
We work on focus, be being bringing bestpractices for scaling up scaling up, like,
building the foundation for for scaling up.
That's kind of, like, very, very relevant forfor what we're doing.
And, there's a lot of companies that they theywant to come to China, and they they they come
to a program because of that.
But there are companies that will use China asa way to, as a way to potentially explore other

(59:30):
markets or or get get, get kind of, like, a awhole, like, redesign of of what they do.
Yeah.
That was amazing.
Hey.
I know we're out of time, and, I know you're,you know, starting your well, you're kinda way
you're kinda midway through your happy hour,and, you know, I'm I'm honored to to enjoy it
with you.
Next time, we'll be both drinking beers in thesame hour.

(59:51):
Cheers with my coffee mug here.
But, but hope, hope I either make it to NewYork.
I mean, hope I either make it over there or youmake it over here to New York, and, we could do
a beer in real in real time.
Definitely.
Looking forward to that.
Cool.
Thanks for that, guys.
Pleasure to be patient today.
Yeah.
Thanks for coming in.
I I loved your story, and, you know, I learneda lot.
So I appreciate your time.
And, Oscar, I might just give you a ring in afew minutes.

(01:00:13):
I have a couple of questions for you, afterthis call, if that's alright.
Good.
Well, I'm gonna be and, I'm actually doing a akeynote in, like, twenty minutes.
So if you see two minutes, it will work.
Otherwise, might know that might not work.
Okay.
Alright.
We'll catch up later, and, we'll, we'll hangyou know, we'll we'll keep you posted in the
email system.
Thanks for all your time.

(01:00:34):
Okay.
Thank you, Joel.
Thank you, buddy.
Have a good day, good night, good afternoon.