David Tao: BarBend

Joel Palathinkal engages with David Tao in a discussion that traverses the intersection of friendship and business, highlighting its significance in successful fundraising. David shares his journey from a media background to founding BarBend Media, offering insights into the current media landscape and the intricacies of content business. They delve into editorial management, content scaling, and the strategic use of Google News and Facebook for growth. The conversation touches on SEO, domain authority, and media entrepreneurship opportunities. They also explore fitness, wellness, and nutrition trends, emphasizing the importance of community and steady growth. The episode concludes with reflections on lessons learned and future outlooks.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I could write a results article, like, at thisWe just had an unrelenting commitment to

(00:04):
publishing all the news that we thought wasrelevant in our space, and it it worked and it
it was important at the beginning, and itshowed people early on that they could come to
Barbed as a resource.
And those readers stuck, and they grew, and itcreated a bit of a snowball effect.
Welcome to The Investor, a podcast where I,Joel Palofinkle, your host, dives deep into the

(00:26):
minds of the world's most influentialinstitutional investors.
In each episode, we sit down with an investorto hear about their journeys and how global
markets are driving capital allocation.
So join us on this journey as we explore theseinsights.
A second, but, you know, I am just reallyexcited to have a good buddy of mine, David

(00:49):
Tau.
Known him for a couple years now, and, we'rejust buddies in the city.
And, it's just, you know, I think one thingthat I think about friendship is when somebody
calls you, you get excited when they're callingyou.
So whenever David calls me or text me, I'mlike, wow, it's good to see how he's doing.
I think one thing that David does too is, he'lljust periodically just text you to see how

(01:15):
you're doing.
So that's kind of the preamble.
David Tau is just a serial entrepreneur, angelinvestor.
He's also been an LP in funds, so just superactive.
He's given me advice as a founder.
So I think just an all around good guy, goodperson.
So David, thanks for coming on the show.
Joel, thanks for having me.
And I mean, it goes both ways.

(01:36):
I get messages from you sometimes that really,really brighten my day.
I think sometimes we get caught up in in whatwe're doing.
And even as adults, even in a place that's verysocial, like we both live in New York City
Yeah.
It's very easy to kinda silo yourself and andliterally go weeks without talking to friends
because everyone's so busy.
Yeah.
And I think one thing that you're really goodat and and one thing that I'm really

(01:58):
appreciative of and I try and do is like, hey.
You know, can I take ten minutes a couple timesa week and, like, who are some people I haven't
talked to in a little while?
Who are some people who could, like, feel alittle bit of love?
And it always every time I do that, every timeI take ten minutes and I text, like, four or
five people who I haven't talked to in a while,something good always comes out of that.

(02:18):
Either we meet up and we talk about some likeimportant life stuff.
Sometimes people are going through big lifeevents.
Maybe it's a breakup.
Maybe a loved one died or passed away.
You know, maybe maybe something happened in thebusiness world and they just kinda want that.
Or like sometimes those will those will resultin I mean, I've become an investor in a couple
funds literally just because like I got a textfrom someone or I texted someone to see how

(02:41):
they were doing, and they're like, oh, I'mactually working on I'm in community with new
fund or something.
And some of those worked out really well.
I made some angel investments at some reallycool companies and some really successful
companies because of that.
So I I think power of just like a no pressure,no stakes check-in is is really, something I I
really try and honor, and I know you do thesame.
Yeah.

(03:02):
Yeah.
And I think the you know, there's been a lot ofdiscussion about this.
You know, the best time to to raise money isactually when you're not raising.
So if somebody is just kind of casuallychecking on checking in on you, they probably
you know, that timing and that vibe wasprobably much better than just kind of like
being in sales mode.
And, you know, I know it's tough.

(03:22):
A lot of people have, you know, I mean, just mepersonally, I can see from my platform, you
know, funds have cut their allocations, youknow, so they're super thirsty and hungry
sometimes.
And like, you can kind of feel that vibe.
And it kinda makes you feel like a little underpressure.
Like, hey, you know what?
Like, I've got to be actionable versus kind oflike, hey, let's just get to know each other

(03:45):
and let's let's grab a drink or do dinner.
And I think sometimes that's the best time toactually kinda try to build those, capital
relationships.
Yeah.
For sure.
For sure.
So and, you know, I I think one thing that wecan, you know, start with is just your your
career, your background.

(04:05):
I know, you know, we have some similarparallels.
Right?
I mean, you you were in the media space.
I worked for Hearst magazines for some time, soI used to you know, so I'd get kind of, like,
the editorial.
There's a whole there's a whole church andstate between the editorial, you know, voice
versus like ads.
Right?
And, you know, there is really strategicthings, really strategic things that ads can

(04:29):
do, where they can do advertorials, they cankind of create some type of brand vision where
it's still kind of embedded in the editorialvoice.
But, you know, there's a big huge stamp thatsays ad, to just make sure that that's clear
that, that it is not specifically the opinionof the editor.
Yeah.
I I think that our in talking about ourexperience, we were both we both got our well,

(04:54):
I don't wanna say starts in media because I Ithink your your career has taken so many
interesting turns that I I I kinda lose trackof of what happened when.
But, you know, when I first started media rightout of college, I was doing some writing for,
you know, I was the staff writer for Fortunedot com.
Mhmm.
And it right when they were trying to figureout, like, all these legacy, especially

(05:15):
business publications, were trying to figureout, well, is print really dying?
And the answer is print was dying, and a lot ofthem were really slow to accept that.
I'm not sure naming naming names, but a lot ofthem were really slow to accept that.
And so you had a a huge influx of traditionalmagazine writers, magazine sales folks,

(05:35):
circulation folks who suddenly had to move overto the digital space and learn new skill sets.
And I got my start as a as a journalist rightat the right kind of at that point and very
quickly moved over into the startup realm andstarted working for a digital content startup
because it's kind of where everyone was beingpushed at the big publications, and I thought

(05:56):
there would be opportunity to learn a lot, andI sure did, in the startup realm.
So I I think it was an interesting time, and weswapped some war stories about, like Mhmm.
Well, how do you try and how do you try andwrite content, produce good content, grow
revenue when traditional print or traditionalmedia models are dying?

(06:17):
Right?
And that's kind of been something I feel likehas followed me my entire career is, okay, what
is the future of media?
Is there a way to look ahead instead of, like,playing catch up?
And is there a way to actually grow a mediacompany?
And I think right now, we're like, literally,while we're recording this right now, we're in
a time and a period of media consolidation anda lot of really rough things happening in the

(06:37):
media space.
Mean, Vice just declared bankruptcy, I think,last week.
You know, they were once valued at5,700,000,000.0.
Now they're kind of having a scrap sale for225,000,000.
We've seen layoffs at, you know, the WallStreet Journal, and I think the post as well.
BuzzFeed just shuttered BuzzFeed news.
NPR just had a massive round of layoffs.
Mhmm.
And I think that it's it seems like a sad timefor media, but what I hope one thing I would

(07:04):
love to talk about on this conversation andsharing, you and I have talked about this is
there are still media success stories, andthere are still people building really cool
audiences and really dedicated audiences andactually serving underserved content
communities and audiences online.
They're just not necessarily getting all thepress.
So one thing I'm trying to do is, you know, wespoiler alert.
We just exited a company called Barbend Media,which I cofounded in 2016, and we had a what I

(07:28):
would call, honestly, a pretty stellar exitevent.
And it's a real feel good story.
Everyone kept their jobs.
In fact, Barbend, which is now under newownership and I'm actually, by the way, still a
full time employee there because I want to be.
We're hiring.
We're hiring new folks, full time andcontractors.
It's a growing brand.
It's a growing media environment.
And so it's not all the sky is falling inmedia.

(07:51):
There's some real success stories, and I'mreally thankful that I get to come on on this
and talk about a lot of different things, buthopefully convince even one or two people out
there that the media space does have richopportunities, especially for entrepreneurs and
people who wanna identify underserved contentcommunities.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
I mean, I think media has evolved.

(08:11):
So when I was at Hearst, there is somestrategic partnerships and even acquisitions
with blogs.
Right?
So blogs were really outperforming.
You know, if you think about the I think it wasthe list, the skim, the skim.
So it was these two two women that, you know, Ithink they exported their Gmail, emails and
just use that to start, seeding their firstnewsletter, and, they they just kinda grew.

(08:37):
And and there was a point where theirviewership was higher than the New York Times.
So there was a whole audience, and there stillis a whole audience of people that read.
I used to read, you know, very aggressivelywhen I was younger.
I don't read as much just because I don't havethe time.
So the only the only way that I can consume abook is really if I go for a twenty minute run,

(08:57):
it forces me to, you know, try to run and thenI'll listen to Audible.
Right.
And and the issue with me is sometimes I kindatune out a little bit.
So I gotta maybe rewind a little bit to makesure that I get back on track.
But that for me has been kinda the best way toconsume, you know, written content.
And I guess my question to you is do you stillhave time to, like, read books, and and do you

(09:20):
prefer to read them?
Do you like, you know, Kindles?
Do you like Audible?
Yeah.
For the past five months, I have not beenreading a lot because I we went through an
acquisition inquiry due diligence and andacquisition phase, and I'm now settling into a
new role.
But I am a I am a traditionalist.
I don't love audiobooks.
I think they're great for people.

(09:40):
When I'm working out, I I like to listen tomusic or I like to listen to nothing at all.
I'm one of those people.
I know everyone's rolling their eyes.
It's like, listen to nothing at all.
It's like, sometimes, yeah.
Yeah.
But I I have a little space in my apartmentthat is like my reading nook.
Yeah.
And I'm excited to get back into it thissummer.
I had a pretty good streak last year of readinga lot of books.

(10:02):
I do a lot of work in the spirits industry andin the the alcohol industry.
So, you know, I read a lot of books on thehistory and impact of, like, of alcohol on
society.
Whether you drink or not.
I think it's really fascinating.
And I'm a big travel reader.
So I am one of those people, if I'm going on atrip, I will go to the bookstore in the
airport, and I will overpay and get a stack of,you know, whatever looks interesting.

(10:29):
Yeah.
And I will carry it with me, and I will and Iwill read it.
And then I will, like, oftentimes leave thosein hotel lobbies or just, like, give them to
travel companions or, like, the person next tome on the plane.
Like, hey.
Do you wanna read this?
So, yeah, when when I'm traveling, I tend toread more and now that things have calmed down
a little bit post barbed acquisition, I I tryand block that time at night.

(10:49):
Honestly, it helps me sleep.
I don't love looking at screens right beforebed.
I I prefer looking at, like, you know, hardcopy pages, and that allows me to wind down a
little bit more effectively.
That is a trend too.
So you see kind of like the Gen Z crowd wantingto buy old record players and cassette players.
So there is kind of a little movement for justvintage, you know, equipment.

(11:12):
I've seen that as kind of something, you know,on Pinterest.
People are kinda buying, you know, just kind ofthat old fashioned thing and, you know, stuff
that you can hold with your hands.
So that's kind of something that I think is iscoming back.
I'd love to go through your career timelinebecause as we all just figure out our our

(11:32):
identities of who we are, we can wear differenthats, and we can have different lives.
Right?
So I think one part of you that I see is kindalike this fitness person, like this fitness
expert, and then I see, like, this angelinvestor.
But then I also see, like, this whiskey expert.
And those are, three different identities thatall kind of stitched together into, like, your

(11:55):
DNA.
But, like, all of that got formed, throughdifferent experiences and just kind of from who
you are.
So obviously, you have roots in Kentucky, sothat naturally, you know, ties into the
whiskey.
And I know most of this stuff, but I think it'dbe really good to kinda tell that story, you
know, to the audience.
And then maybe we can lead up to the to theacquisition as well.

(12:15):
I read your entire blog to really just kinda bebriefed on it, but I think it's also good to
maybe just share what you're allowed to, youknow, on that journey.
I mean, what would know, especially, like, whatwas going on in your head when you thought
about possibly having that opportunity to have
an asset?
Well, I I appreciate that, Joel, and and I'llI'll start I'll try and give the the elevator
pitch of of of life.

(12:37):
So I was born and raised in Kentucky.
Grew up in a town called Bardstown, which isreally the center of the bourbon industry in
America.
I mean, obviously, in America because bourbonhas to be made in America.
Doesn't actually have to be made in Kentucky,which a lot of people don't realize.
Went to college and decided to pursue writingjournalism media after college.
Mostly, I wanted to move to New York.

(12:58):
I'd always wanted to live here, and I and IYeah.
Thought that I would have opportunity justwriting for Forbes.
Did helped build the edit first editorial teamsand was the first editorial director at a site
called greatest, g r e a tist, which is now aHealthline property.
Was there for a couple years and then startedand at the time, like, through throughout my

(13:21):
early career, I was active in the weightliftingcommunity.
I was active in the CrossFit community.
I actually did some early media work forCrossFit HQ and covered the CrossFit games for
them.
Wrote for a number of publications, everythingfrom, you know, Times Healthland at the time to
Slate to you know, I was I was doing a lot ofwriting even as I was kinda building this

(13:42):
editorial team at Greatest.
Ended up becoming kind of a freelance contentmercenary for a couple years as I like to tell
people.
So I would travel around.
I spent basically half more than half the yearon the road doing work for every company
companies from Samsung to Starbucks to CrossFitto, you know, a lot of fitness companies.

(14:03):
And it wasn't all health and fitness related,but but it got to the point where most of it
was.
Mhmm.
So, you know, a company wanted to open acorporate wellness center or a gym.
I would come in and and help with that brandingand that content.
And I was still very active in theweightlifting and crossfit communities at the
time.
And around early twenty sixteen, I actuallyremember exactly when it was.

(14:23):
I was at CES in Las Vegas.
Mhmm.
And I had gone out with with some some folks,and I I won't say who or which company they
were from, but they were big partiers.
And I don't get me wrong.
I like to I like to let the proverbial hairdown, but, you know, I woke up the next morning
and I was like, I think I need to slow down.
I think I I'm kinda losing track of my roots.
I'm not really living in New York City eventhough I was paying New York City rent.

(14:46):
And I thought I I didn't wanna be a roadwarrior anymore.
So Mhmm.
Around that time, I've been doing someconsulting work for, actually, the University
of California San Francisco's medical schooldoing some, like, SEO and digital content
consulting work and had been working with twofolks on that who also lived in New York and
really hit it off well with them and decided Iwas like you know, they they actually

(15:11):
approached me, they're like, hey.
We'd love to work with you in kind of more of afull time capacity.
You know, we like your skill set.
We like your editorial mind.
Is that something you'd be interested in?
And I was like, you know, it it is.
But I also have this idea.
What if we created, like, the ESPN.com forstrength?
CrossFit was still growing a lot at the time.
Weightlifting, powerlifting, strongman,bodybuilding were all increasingly popular, but

(15:36):
because the traditional print publications werenot doing so well, there was not this online
home.
If you wanted results from, like, apowerlifting competition, you might have to
wait months until, like, a magazine arrived inthe mail.
Like, it was still at that level.
So I joined them full time.
They had a few other properties that they werekinda incubating, experimenting with.
Some nothing happened with.

(15:56):
Some we had smaller exits for.
Some, you know, just kinda fell by the wayside,and and we were also doing some SEO and content
consulting at the time.
But under that, we started incubating BarBent.
This idea for, like, can we create the mediacompany for strength?
We started off just writing news.
It was really the the main thing.

(16:16):
It was at a time when the world's strongest manresults were just coming out in 2016.
It was right before the Rio Olympics.
So we actually got a lot of early traction justbecoming like the news source
Yeah.
For for people who lifted weights.
You know?
And Oh, wow.
So there's nobody else doing this?
There were some other places doing this, butthey tended to not cover everything.
Right?
Like Got it.

(16:36):
CrossFit had their own media team, and then,like, there were some power lifting blogs, and
there were some weight lifting, like, forums,but no one is really covering it altogether.
Yeah.
And we realized we could kind of consolidatethose eyeballs, and it was around the summer.
It was around the around the Rio Olympics.
We started getting cited as a primary sourceMhmm.
By, you know, Wikipedia and mainstream sportspublications like ESPN, Sports Illustrated.

(17:00):
And we were like, oh, there might be somethinghere.
We started getting a lot of traffic.
You know, we launched with nothing completelyorganically.
And in our first year, we had 1,400,000 users,which was great.
Wow.
So we decided to kinda go all in on it.
We raised a round of funding, got turned downfrom by every venture capitalist we talked to.
Dozens and dozens just turned us down.
Every institutional investor said no.

(17:21):
And it's because at the time, they thought ouropportunity was too small.
Everyone wanted to find the next BuzzFeed orthe next Vice Media.
Sure.
Spoiler alert.
Those didn't end up doing so well as far asYeah.
Investor money.
People thought we were too narrow.
Mhmm.
No no institutional investor wanna believe inus, we had to scrape together a friends and

(17:41):
family around.
I wrote about this more in a Medium post about,like, the chronology of Barbend, but it was
really lean times the first couple years.
We were gaining traction.
We knew there was something there, but we justcouldn't convince people who could write big
checks that there was something there.
Mhmm.
Around the time the pandemic hit in 2020, thesite had become big enough to where it was

(18:02):
profitable.
We exited or kind of let, you know, let go someof the other projects we were working on that
actually created supplemental revenue, and wewent all in on Barbed in 2020.
Grew the team.
We had a few full time employees, but reallygrew the team.
Considered raising another round of funding.
Realized we didn't need to.
We could grow it just on profits.

(18:22):
And then, you know, by the end of twentytwenty, we were really the largest independent
strength publisher online.
Mhmm.
By 2022, we were at over 31,000,000 users ayear.
We were generating nearly $20,000,000 a yeargross merchandise value.
And then early twenty twenty three or the firsthalf of twenty twenty three, we we exited.

(18:43):
So that's kind of the the story of Barbend, andthere are a lot more nuances there, and there
are lot more inflection points where it's like,hey.
Do we
wrap this up, or do we go all in?
That happened a few times, which I wrote aboutin a media post, Mhmm.
You know, people can Google it or maybe you'lllink it in the show notes.
But it wasn't it wasn't very glamorous.
And I think that we only announced about a weekago that we have been acquired, and a lot of

(19:07):
people have been reaching out to me reallysurprised.
They were like, I didn't think it was goingthat well.
Wow.
And they that's okay.
But I think that in the startup world, we'reused to flash and we're used to increasingly
big rounds.
They're like, no.
I didn't hear you all someone was like, Ididn't hear you all had raised again.
Uh-huh.
Well, we didn't need to raise again because webecame profitable, and we we grew it off of

(19:28):
just business fundamentals and Mhmm.
Basically off of EBITDA.
Right?
And someone else reached out and said, know,and so for them, the fact that we didn't have
like a big series a or series b announced, theytook that as a bad sign.
Right?
Yeah.
And I think sometimes when you're buildingmedia companies because the product is just new
content you have to churn out day in and dayout, outside observers might have trouble

(19:52):
noticing that growth.
Even though we're dominating in searchrankings, even though we have tens of millions
of users a year or a quarter, people arelooking at us and they're saying, well, there's
nothing really flashy.
There's no, like, they didn't announce, a newproduct update.
There's no, you know, bar bend GPT four.
There's no $30,000,000 b round.
Mhmm.
There aren't these flashy things.

(20:13):
And it wasn't till we were acquired that Ithink a lot of people who I know, some of my
very good friends, who were very supportive,they reached out and they're like, wait.
Your company was how big?
You had how many full time employees?
Yeah.
You had how many pieces of content?
You were you were driving how much merchandisevalue for your partners and and affiliates?
Like, what?
Mhmm.
And so that was a little bit long winded, butall that to say, I think the content game can

(20:36):
get very unsexy because you have to do it dayin and day out.
And you really don't want your users to seethat growth.
Like, you want your users to consume more ofyour content, but my goal for every reader of
Barbend is not to show them how big we areMhmm.
As a as a content producer.
Our goal with Barbend when we look at our usersis, okay.

(20:56):
How can we give them an increasingly good andseamless user experience such that they're
consuming our content and using our content,but, like, it's frictionless.
They're not, like, thinking about it.
Right?
They're not thinking about, like, oh, Barbend'schanged a lot or like barbins got really big.
No.
They're just reading our content and gettinggood information out of it like they always
have as we write more of it.

(21:17):
So it's a little interesting, and I think thatespecially now is a very active LP and an
active angel investor, like people are arereally there's a trend toward unsexy
businesses.
Mhmm.
Right?
People want the blue chip businesses.
Yeah.
And I think content, if you're doing nichecontent, can be a really unsexy business.

(21:37):
Marvin was never gonna IPO.
And and we were never gonna raise a, you know,multi tens of millions of dollars, you know,
series a, b, or c round.
Like, we just it didn't make sense on ourbusiness model.
And because of that, there aren't these, like,newsworthy items for people to point to until
you get acquired, and then suddenly people arelike, wait.
How big did you all get?

(21:59):
What did you do?
Mhmm.
And I think it just shows the impact of, like,how niche audiences can really move the dial,
and they are significant.
And it's nice to look back and say like, hey,we had we hit we guessed.
We guessed that these audiences would be bigenough and we were right.
That feels good, of course.

(22:19):
Yeah.
So there's two things I'd like to double clickon.
So one is the the skill set of copywritingversus, you know, being an editor.
Yeah.
And I've seen both of those roles.
And, you know, this is just I'm bringing thisup because this is something I'm learning.
I'm building, you know, a couple new websitesand funnels.
And, these people that I'm working with,they're like, look, you definitely need to hire

(22:42):
a copy person.
It really makes a difference in terms ofconversions.
And I did see that discipline as a separatediscipline, you know, because copy, obviously,
you wanna have someone that could, you know,really convert when it comes to tweets and
engage.
And sometimes that skill set is not the same.
It's not that same skill set that an editor mayhave, you know, writing more long form content,

(23:07):
storytelling.
So wanted to hear your reaction to that.
And, you know, I was curious also if you wrotecopy alongside, you know, writing, you know,
long form content for Forbes.
Totally.
I mean, I would say that my copy I thinkwriting, like, a journalistic article, like,
full article is is a very different skill setthan writing than, quote, unquote, copywriting,
which is, like, shorter form landing page stylestuff.

(23:29):
Yeah.
I Even an ad as well.
An ad.
Yeah.
And that that skill set I really worked on whenI was doing a lot of content consulting.
Yeah.
Because what I would do is a company would hireme, and I would kinda build a team of
freelancers, and they would often focus on thelonger form stuff.
I would be an editor, but the the but, youknow, the companies would also say, oh, can you
help us with this landing page too?

(23:51):
They would kinda add it all at the end or like,oh, we'll pay you a little extra.
Yeah.
And sometimes it's like, oh, we actually needthat by tomorrow.
Can you can you do that?
We'll pay you this much.
And I would just do it.
Right?
So that's kinda how I cut my teeth incopywriting.
For Barbend, when we first started for thefirst six months and I wrote about this in the
Medium post, I was writing basicallyeverything.
Mhmm.
I was writing, like, sometimes, like, more than30 articles a week, which is Wow.

(24:13):
That's a lot.
More output than I've ever had in my life.
And and I I don't think I'll ever be thatprolific in anything ever again, but we had to
publish consistently because we wanted tobecome that that new source of record.
And then once we were able to raise some moneyand actually hire full time employees, I moved
to being more of an editor.
But I also still did a lot of copywritingbecause we were optimizing pages.

(24:34):
We were creating landing pages, home pages,writing social copy, you know, trying to figure
out all these other things that couldorganically create create organic funnels,
basically.
We weren't necessarily going out and paying fortraffic, but we were creating it could be like
a a squat calculator, a one rep max calculator,these fitness tools that needed some content

(24:54):
copy around them.
And I was doing a lot of that as well.
Yeah.
And they are very different skill sets.
And I think that you hit on what you doubleclicked on, you know, editing and writing and
copywriting being three very different skillsets.
Yeah.
I think the real art is blending those togetherand understanding on a given project or

(25:15):
editorial lift who's responsible for what Mhmm.
And respecting those skill sets and those thosedifferent different abilities to optimize for
those things.
Because if you send a copywriter, an editor,and a, like, a magazine style article writer
down in the same room and they've never workedtogether before, I guarantee you there's gonna
be some miscommunication to start.

(25:35):
Right?
So a real benefit is building that rapport andunderstanding that, you know, Barbend and a lot
of content companies these days, we work with alot of freelancers.
Barbend works with a lot of freelancers becausesome of the smartest minds and strength
training and strength sports, they're not fulltime writers.
They might be coaches.
They might be gold medal winning athletes.
They might be research like, they mightresearchers.

(25:55):
Right?
We work with a lot of researchers.
You know, if you're doing research at auniversity, you're not gonna write for barbed
full time.
You might write for barbed a couple times amonth.
So, obviously, we're gonna work withfreelancers.
Mhmm.
But we really wanted to focus on and this isanother thing that that the VCs didn't want us
to do.
We wanted to focus on building in houseeditorial capacity so that our editors could
build rapport with the writers, they couldbuild rapport with each other, and really

(26:17):
develop systems based around people.
Right?
Yeah.
And understanding that quality would get betteras our people made the systems better, not the
other way around.
So
I'd like to also talk a little more aboutgrowth.
Right?
So you scale to, I believe it was 1,400,000.0in the first year.

(26:38):
First year.
Yeah.
So traffic, you know, there's different ways tolook at traffic.
Right?
There could be organic.
There could be social.
You got it sounds like a lot of your loverswere on the content creation.
Some people just pay for traffic.
Right?
They or they run ads to go to a landing page.
So it would be helpful, you know, whateveryou're allowed to share or any advice that you

(27:01):
have in terms of how to build an engine kindalike you did to kinda get to that level of
traffic?
Because that's that's still a lot of trafficfor, for just, you know, the first early years.
Yeah.
And we were starting from, you know, absolutelyzero.
Right?
The the domain name barbend.com had never beenlive before.
Yeah.
Bought it for $7 Mhmm.

(27:21):
Which was probably the best domain name scoreI'll ever I'll ever have in my life.
Mhmm.
You know, we I would have loved to have goneout in the early days and bought traffic.
We didn't have money, so we couldn't.
And but the good news is I came from aneditorial background Mhmm.
With an emphasis on SEO.
My cofounders had a ton of SEO experience, andso we realized that we could start writing

(27:48):
things early on and optimize to make the sitefast, to make the site responsive, to write
good content, to create internal links, to dothese things such that, you know, we're not
gonna dominate the search engine results pagesof the SERPs immediately, but people are going
to be looking for very specific things in anunderserved content niche.
Mhmm.

(28:08):
So we didn't have a ton of competitors.
So what that allowed us to do is, okay, we wereat results on, you know, the twenty sixteen
World's Strongest Man.
There weren't a hundred different outletscompeting for those results.
There were, like, a handful.
And so we started showing up a little bit, andwe started getting noticed in the strength

(28:28):
community because, you know, we always said wewere for strength athletes by strength
athletes.
I'm a huge strength nerd.
I still love exploring physical culture.
And so people understood that we wereauthentic.
It's what we were focused on.
We weren't a mainstream outlet writing, like,one token results pay article for this
competition.
Like, this is our bread and butter.
It was the strength world.
And those readers started coming back.

(28:51):
Right?
And they started coming to us to get resultsfrom competition.
So it built very slowly, and, you know, most ofthe traffic we got that first year was in the
back half of that year because we started fromabsolutely nothing.
Yeah.
But I remember the first day we got 20,000visitors to the site.
I think it was the summer of twenty sixteen,about four or five months after we launched.

(29:11):
Mhmm.
And it was based off of both a news articlewe'd written and an evergreen piece that one of
our first contributors wrote.
Mhmm.
And that's when I realized that we could reallygrow this and use news as a bit of a flywheel.
The news would get people in the door.
They would find it because they were lookingfor results and they were looking for the
latest, but then they would also start readingour other content.

(29:32):
They would also start reading good thinkpieces, op eds, in-depth training, and analysis
pieces by some of the smartest minds instrength.
I was like, okay.
The news will get them in the door, but theymay stick around for some of this other
content.
And really, when we hired our first full timeeditorial team in late twenty sixteen or late
twenty seventeen, it was to double down on,like, okay.
We know we can produce news.

(29:53):
Can we produce other things as well?
Mhmm.
So there isn't, an a, b, and c, I think, forlaunching a content company.
I think it's a little bit like breaking out ofprison.
No one
does it the same way twice.
And there's
not an easy to follow rubric, but consistencywas really important for us, and news was the
flywheel that fed it to the other types ofcontent that we eventually began to write.
Was the news the center you know, I'll just goto the website real quick.

(30:16):
But was news the the center area of the page,or did you get people in?
Because it was.
It looks like you got some trending looks likeyou got some kinda trending headlines
coming in.
I mean, the website looks different than it thewebsite looks different than it did.
Let me put it that way.
The early stages of barbend, you came, andthere were, like, four tabs at the top.
It was, like, weightlifting, powerlifting,CrossFit, strongman.
And you could just toggle between the sportsand just it was basically pretty much all news.

(30:39):
Like, the first few months Yeah.
You know, first almost year, like, the vastmajority of what we wrote is news was news.
And we still write a lot of news.
We still write more news than anyone in thestrength space because we're barbed.
But that became why people would how peoplewould find us in search engine results pages.
And then once they realized we had other typesof content, they started coming directly to the

(31:00):
website.
Yeah.
And then did you guys leverage any newslettersor just kind of, like, email notifications to
kinda get people in as well?
Or
We didn't have new we didn't really start anewsletter program until years later.
It's pretty active now.
We have two sizable newsletters, but we didn'tstart it until years later.
We did people could subscribe to notificationswhen we publish certain things, which they

(31:22):
still have the option to do.
Yeah.
And, you know, we did we we were pretty earlyto submit things directly to Google News.
Right?
Google had some early early programs where youcould you could, like, ask to get your site
listed to Google News or say, like, hey.
We wanna submit this specifically to GoogleNews.
Oh, nice.
And because we were publishing so much news,like, they were like, sure.
Right?
Like, Google really liked our Google News,really liked our content, And I think that

(31:44):
helped a lot.
So it wasn't even necessarily showing up in themain feed of Google all the time.
It was showing up in like the news tab andthings like that.
So we were we were pretty big pretty big onthat.
And then frankly, this
was
a very different time in the Facebookecosystem.
Mhmm.
Facebook was content producers were doing muchbetter on Facebook back then than they are now.

(32:05):
Oh, yeah.
And, you know, you could publish if you werethe first to publish a quality results article
for like the Olympics or something like that.
It would really take off on Facebook.
It could like really it could really, reallytake off and get hundreds of thousands of
impressions on Facebook and on Facebookinstant, was, you know, a big thing at the
time.
So which is basically where Facebook would,like, kinda scrape your article, and you would

(32:28):
get credit for it, but it would it wouldanyway, it's a little bit like Apple News is, I
guess.
And that was really big for us as well.
Obviously, Facebook changed a lot about theiralgorithm their algorithms.
It really tanked a lot of outlets.
I know Now This, which was like all in onFacebook.
Yeah.
They struggled and lost like 90% of theirtraffic or something like that.

(32:48):
I don't remember exactly what, like overnightafter Facebook changed something.
So we really tried to diversify acrossdifferent platforms and search engines.
But, yeah, I mean, we we just I I didn't go onvacation.
I didn't really travel much.
Like, I remember bringing my computer toparties.
Like, I went to a friend's birthday party, andI brought my computer, and I asked for, like,

(33:09):
the bar's Wi Fi.
Yeah.
So I could write a results article like at thisWe just had an unrelenting commitment to
publishing all the news that we thought wasrelevant in our space and it it worked and it
it was important at the beginning and it showedpeople early on that they could come to Barbed
as a resource And those readers stuck, and theygrew, and it created a bit of a snowball
effect.
Yeah.
No.
That's really valuable.

(33:30):
I mean, I think just kinda building thatcontent strategy, learning from it, and then
really just kind of optimizing for SEO was asuperpower that you had.
I follow Neil Patel a lot.
He shares a lot of really great just knowledgeon SEO.
He's, like, one of the SEO experts, and he'sbeen posting a lot on how, you know, video
content is now getting optimized in Googlesearch.

(33:52):
So, you know, I think you also have to thinkabout the medium that you're comfortable with.
That's something that I would like to get moreinvolved in in terms of, written content.
So I'd love to hear if you have any kinda highlevel SEO learnings, like best practices on,
you know, building building links that convertor, like, backlinks or how that works?
I mean, do you think you can kinda give ussome, like, top level learnings that you've

(34:16):
learned over the years in terms of how toimprove SEO?
SEO is a constantly changing environment.
We have an SEO team a dedicated SEO team atBurbin.
They're fantastic.
So I I can't give, like, the playbook becausewe just don't have enough time, and it's such a
broad thing.
You know, how do you how do you distillsomeone's entire job down to, like, a a small
segment?
But what I will say is the most important toolfor SEO is to rank quality content.

(34:39):
Write content that people want to share.
Yeah.
Right?
I mean, one thing that helped early on, I'llgive an anecdote is, you know, we noticed at
the Rio Olympics in 2016, I was, like, up latewriting results for all these different
weightlifting sessions.
We started getting you know, we we we wereusing various, like, tools to see which inbound
links we were getting and which inbound trafficsources we were getting.

(35:01):
And suddenly, we got this, like, influx ofinbound traffic from Wikipedia.
Mhmm.
I was like, oh, that's interesting.
And it's because the editors at Wikipedia werechoosing to cite our results articles because
they were really good.
Like, are they were accurate.
They gave context.
They gave context above and beyond what themajor mainstream publishers were were giving.
Yeah.
And I was like, oh, and that's better than any,like, that's like the best strategy.

(35:26):
Right?
When someone wants to link to your content andwants to send traffic to you, that's the best
strategy.
So if you write best in class content or youwrite content that people want, you identify a
realm of content that people want, but they'renot getting anywhere else.
Mhmm.
Over time, that compounds to be the best SEOstrategy you could ever ask for.
Yeah.
And that remains our best SEO strategy was justwriting great news content.

(35:50):
Is that considered domain authority?
Because I've heard that term before too.
So kinda like partner with the larger wellknown domain, and if they they cite you or they
kinda link to you.
Domain authority is weird because it's likeit's this number that gets assigned and, like,
different tools Mhmm.
And different companies will, like, havedifferent measures for domain authority.

(36:10):
But, you know, factors include, like, thematurity of your website, the the size of your
website, referring domains.
And it's it's just, like, weird number that,like, is is kind of an approximate it's it's
people trying to approximate how Google seesyour site.
It's kinda what it is.
Right?
That that's like an maybe anoversimplification, and I'm sure, like, some

(36:31):
actual SEO experts will listen to this and belike, David, you're wrong.
But, like, that's that's how I think about itin my mind just for, like
Yeah.
To keep my sanity, and it builds over time.
Right?
So, you know, most blogs are very low have avery low domain authority number, you know,
maybe under 40 or under 30.
The New York Times has a domain authority inthe nineties.
Right?
Yeah.

(36:51):
You know, Barbend is a domain of I don't knowexactly what domain authority is off the top of
my head and right and, like, different toolswill assign different it'll vary a few points
either way.
Right?
But, you know, we're we're we're taking up intothe eighties, I think.
And so, like, don't get too obsessed with that.
It's a measure of make basically, domainauthority is useful.
I think it's useful in that every quarter, youwant your domain authority to go up if you're

(37:14):
if you're a content publisher.
Right?
Yeah.
But, like, don't it's not a number that I thinkyou should check every day because it's not
gonna change every day.
I know.
And it it incorporates all these differentfactors and all these different SEO signals.
And, like so don't get too obsessed with
it Mhmm.
Because it's about making progress in the longterm.
It's kinda like your credit score.
Like, I don't like, Joel, doesn't make sensefor us to check our credit scores every day.

(37:38):
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Right?
I mean,
you might need to check it if you're trying todo something big, like buy a house or
something, and it may be you know, that may bethe period or, you know, a few moments where
you might check it, but, you know, maybe acouple times a year.
Probably.
Right?
Exactly.
Exactly.
Or, like, you know, your your retirementaccount.
Like Mhmm.
You know, the best the best advice I ever heardis, like, don't check your retirement account

(38:00):
every day because it's gonna be frustrating,and it's gonna go up and down with the markets.
But the point is over time, it will go up.
Mhmm.
Right?
And just make sure you're doing the things.
Focus on the things that make it go up overtime.
Don't focus on the number.
Mhmm.
And I think domain authority is it falls underthat realm.
And one thing that you said earlier, which I doagree with is just scaling in general is not as

(38:21):
sexy.
You know, you're really just trying to perfectthe same thing that you're doing and really
compound that over time.
So if you're you know, you you you got from,like, 1,400,000.0 to, I think what was it?
1919 or twenty million?
Oh, over
over 31,000,000 in 2020.
Yeah.
I I I think I think GNV was 19,000,000.
That GMV was around that was that's an s that'san estimate.

(38:41):
GMV is kinda hard to estimate.
And by the way, that does that GMV does notinclude other forms of revenue.
Other, like, significant forms of revenue.
And GMV is not revenue, by the way.
That does not GMV does not equal revenue.
I just wanna be clear.
It's gross merchandise value is a differentnumber.
You know, we are we are a little bit tightlipped about how much we sold for.
We're a little bit tight lipped about how muchBarbet was making every year.

(39:03):
It was a private acquisition.
Like, we're not gonna we don't we don't want toshare that.
But we share some numbers to give folks a senseof the impact Barbed has.
Mhmm.
Because it's a very large media company in thegrand scheme of things relative to other niche
media companies, and it's very impactful in thespace.
And my hope in sharing some of these numbers,you know, I'm not gonna share exactly Yeah.

(39:23):
What we sold for, but I'm going to I'm going toshare some of these numbers to encourage folks
that there is opportunity in media to build newmedia properties, and there is opportunity in
media entrepreneurship.
Because like we were saying earlier, it's ait's a, quote, unquote, dark time in media with
a lot of layoffs and a lot of consolidation andsome bankruptcies.

(39:45):
But I think that is distracting from the factMhmm.
That while some of those legacy brands arehaving a really tough time, smaller or newer or
more focused or more targeted outlets likeBarbend are actually seeing a lot of success.
So that's why I share those numbers.
Not necessarily say, look at us.

(40:05):
Look how much we're worth, but to say, at theimpact we're having.
Mhmm.
One thing that could be a fun experience as,you know, Barbend continues to grow is thinking
about what Barben could acquire.
And I think, you know, there are someevolutions in media where people are creators.
They're, you know, they're micro influencers onTikTok and Instagram.

(40:28):
So have you thought, you know, down the road,some type of property that you could acquire or
maybe just a different type of medium thatcould be interesting to to supplement BarBen?
Yeah.
So we did actually acquire a site calledBreaking Muscle in 02/2021.
They were kind of the first training, one ofthe early training content, fitness content
sites on the web.
It's actually the first site that I reallystarted reading when I was getting starting my

(40:49):
strength training journey.
We actually acquired them in 2021.
They had been a little bit not neglectednecessarily, but they they had just been
publishing a lot less, so they had kind ofcontracted a little bit.
We relaunched that in early twenty twenty twoabout a year ago.
And it's just a separate editorial team.
And when pillar four acquired Barbed, they alsoacquired breaking muscle.
It's still a Sure.

(41:09):
It actually has its own team, its own editorialteam, its own voice.
It's actually very different from Barbed.
It's real
rates related content, but for a slightlydifferent audience.
And so, you know, we when we're independent, wewere we were in the mood to acquire.
And I think now that we're part of pillar four,you know, there is look, I can't speak to that.

(41:30):
I'm not I'm not I I am involved with I talkedto a lot of the folks at at pillar four
involved in M and A.
I'm still very new with the company.
Yeah.
But I think that the desire for growth and thedesire to keep growing pillar four's fitness
vertical is definitely there.
And, you know, I look.
I don't have to stay on at Bar Bend.

(41:51):
There was no, like, part as part of the deal,it wasn't required for me to stay on full time,
but I wanted to.
And I was like, guys, can I stay on?
And, like, what value can I continue to bringthe brand?
I'm not gonna be CEO anymore.
Yeah.
What value can I continue to bring the brand?
And we we figured out something really cool.
And I'm just so thrilled to be here because Ithink Barbend is just reaching like, I don't

(42:13):
think we're anywhere near the ceiling.
Like, I think Barbend can double, triple,quadruple in size in the next eighteen to
twenty four months.
Yeah.
And so, like, you know, I think we can go toeto toe with, like, the men's health of men's
health of the world, speaking of Hearst.
Right?
Like, I think we Yeah.
I think that we can and should be bigger thanthat property.
Oh, yeah.
And I think it will happen.
So I think there are opportunities to acquireawesome properties in the space for companies

(42:40):
like Pillar four.
I don't I don't I don't wanna claim that myfocus that I'm, like, looking at other
properties right now.
Yeah.
What I want to say is, you know, I'm focused ondoing what I can to support Mhmm.
The Barbed team as we continue to grow.
Yeah.
What are some, you know, as then this is prettybroad, but, you know, what are the different

(43:05):
types of goals that people have as they'retrying to think about fitness?
Right?
So some of it's weight loss, some of it's, youknow, building muscle.
I guess can you unpack that a little bit interms of just and it's selflessly for myself.
That's one thing that I'm trying to
Yeah.
Prioritize a little more, just better betterphysical wellness.
Everyone has different goals.
Weight loss is huge.

(43:28):
Building muscle mass is huge.
I think the thing that, you know, if you have10 different people and you talk to them,
you'll get 20 different weight loss goal.
You'll you'll start.
You'll get 20 different goals.
Oh, so many.
Someone might want to lose weight and buildmuscle.
Someone might want to quote unquote tone upwhich is a bit of a controversial term in the
fitness industry but it's okay.
Someone might want to feel better.
Someone might want to increase their mobilityand get more flexible.

(43:50):
Someone might just want to, you know, have aneasier time playing with kids or carrying home
the groceries.
Mhmm.
Right?
And we can have different goals.
Yeah.
You don't have to have just one singular goalall the time.
One thing that I'm really keen on, and it's agoal that's becoming more popular as the
research as more research comes out and asplaces like Barbet produce more content on it,

(44:11):
I'm a big believer in resistance training as apowerful anti aging tool.
Okay.
Sarcopenia, which is age related muscle loss,is a very real thing Mhmm.
And as you lose muscle as you age, it it itdoes your body will will have more trouble
keeping muscle mass as you age.
It increases your risk of injury.
It increases your risk of becoming lessindependent as an as an individual as you age,

(44:36):
increases your fall risk and increases yourrisk of all sorts of comorbidities.
And so something that I'm personally verypassionate about and I think is often reflected
in Barbet's content, even though I'm notdirecting content day to day and I haven't for
quite a while, is, you know, is resistancetraining part of a long term health outlook?
Mhmm.
And I think one of the best goals we can make,like, I am in my thirties.

(44:59):
I have goals of like lifting this particularweight or running this particular, you know,
mile time or something like that.
That's all great.
But my long term goal personally and one that Ireally love sharing with people and talking to
people about is how can how I move now improvemy quality of life ten, twenty, thirty, forty
years from now?
Right?
Am I going to be able to do a push up when I'min my fifties, sixties, seventies, or eighties?

(45:25):
Mhmm.
Right?
Because like, I can lift a lot of weight rightnow.
That's great.
That's awesome.
Right?
But I want to be able to lift some weight,maybe not as much, and feel good about how I
move and be mobile and independent in thirtyyears.
So what can I do now to build habits in thebase that's going to allow me to do that?

(45:49):
Right?
Because dead lifting 500 pounds right now iscool and that's that's something I love do I I
love being able to do.
Right?
I don't think I'll care about that when I'm 60years old Sure.
As much.
But I think what I will care about is am Imoving well?
Am I independent?
Am I able to get out of bed in the morning andlook forward to the day physically without a
ton of aches and pains or while minimizingthose aches and pains?

(46:11):
So yeah, how can resistance training and doingthings that promote the retention or growth of
muscle mass as we age, how can that improvequality of life at an individual level and at
the population level?
That's something I'm obsessed with now and Ithink that's an overarching goal that I have
regardless of my specific health and fitnessgoals.

(46:32):
Can we just spend a couple seconds talkingabout diet?
So, you know, what are some of the hot topicsthat you're hearing from, you know, these these
people that have all these goals?
You know, we we hear a lot of people as theyget older, they go vegan completely, like Mark
Cuban's vegan, and I think ArnoldSchwarzenegger's vegan.
So, you know, I hear that a lot.
I hear you know, for me personally, I just tryto cut carbs because if I eat a lot of rice and

(46:55):
bread, you know, I can I can feel it?
So, that's something that I've been trying todo.
But, you know, any other just kind of, youknow, hot topics that you hear across the
market or the industry?
So, Barbet, we don't push a particularnutritional regimen because everyone responds
differently.
Yeah.
To nutrition, you know.
You can actually this is something I learnedfrom the, you know, the folks.
There's a company called Levels that does bloodglucose monitoring, and this is not me.

(47:19):
This is not an ad or a show for them.
Mhmm.
But I was talking to one of their founders on apodcast a couple years ago, and they were
involved in research that took identical twinsand gave them the same food, and they actually
had opposite blood glucose reactions.
People are so individual.
Yeah.
When it comes to our gut biomes and the way ourbody responds to food.
How you respond to certain macronutrients isgoing be very different than how I respond,

(47:40):
Joel.
But funnily enough, I was talking to a verygood friend of mine, Adam Borenstein, who is a
multi time he's a New York Times best sellingauthor.
He used to be the fitness director at Men'sHealth.
He actually works very closely with ArnoldSchwarzenegger
Mhmm.
And his content companies and brands.

(48:00):
And Adam's new book is coming out May 23.
It's called You Can't Screw This Up.
And it's about it's nutrition and wellness bookthat very much takes the stance of there is no
perfect diet.
Yeah.
You have to figure out what works for you.
Some people want plant based.
That's great.
Some people are carnivores.

(48:20):
You know, obviously, talk to talk to a medicalprofessional before making any significant
dietary change is is is an important thing.
Right?
Get your blood work done.
Talk to your doctor.
Mhmm.
People respond very differently to differentthings.
To the same you know, or they respond verydifferently to the same things.
But there is no perfect diet.

(48:42):
There might be a diet that's healthiest foryou, but if you have a heck of a time sticking
to it and it stresses you out and and you lapseand it ends up creating a cycle of binging
Mhmm.
That's not the healthiest diet.
Yeah.
Right?
It's not.
Finding that the middle of that Venn diagrambetween between impactful and sustainable and
long term and one that also, you know, keepsyou from tearing your hair out because you're

(49:06):
so frustrated, That's what's important.
And Adam's new book, I'm really excited aboutit, had him on the Barbend podcast actually.
You know, he called it you can't screw this upbecause there is there is no magic formula.
Right?
There is no, like, it's not like playing an oldSonic the Hedgehog game where you have to
collect the rings in a particular order.
Yeah.

(49:26):
Right?
You can figure out what works for you, and withthat comes flexibility.
And if you take a long term approach to that,to figuring out what works for you, you're
going to have success.
Right?
If you focus on finding what works for you andyou ask for help, you're going to have success.
The worst thing you can do is start off bycreating a very rigid box and forcing yourself

(49:47):
to stay in it for the rest of your life when itcomes nutrition.
So that's a mindset that really resonates withme.
It's something that I've seen Adam who is atrue one of the OG fitness experts who's seen a
lot tells it like it is.
It's a it's a way I've seen his thought processevolve over the past decade since his last In N
Out twenty thirteen.
Mhmm.
So so really, really interesting.

(50:07):
And I would say like people stress aboutnutrition and they stress about nutrition to
the point where it stops them from actuallyreaching and working toward nutritional goals.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I think you're right, and I think oneof the spirits of what you've been building is
really a community.
So you don't have to be alone as well.
You know, you talked about asking for help.

(50:28):
So having the right support system to kinda bethere to to cheer you on or also just kinda
hold you accountable, I think, is is definitelysuper valuable as well.
So
Yeah.
Thank you for asking that.
And Yeah.
Build build your tribe.
Right?
Build the people who lift you up and supportyou and help you make more balanced, consistent

(50:49):
decisions.
Yeah.
So Yeah.
Absolutely.
Well, we got about four minutes left.
So, you know, if we have any other questions,we can kind of recap it on the the LinkedIn
post.
But one thing that I always ask every guesttowards the end is really just kind of a maybe
a reflective learning, you know, on life orbusiness.
Obviously, you know, you had a big, big event,you know, recently on the business side, but

(51:09):
just any kind of, like, high level learnings orjust takeaways or life lessons from maybe the
last quarter that you wanna share?
Maybe we can wrap up with that.
The the biggest thing I would say and Joel,this is something you and I have talked about
at length in some of our conversations.
I am someone and I've shared this with you.
Mhmm.
Man, FOMO is rough for me.

(51:30):
Right?
Like, I fall victim to it.
I can fall victim to that mentality.
And in media, where there's a lot of flash andinvesting where there's also a lot of flash.
Oh, someone just raised this big series b.
Someone just had this exit.
Someone had this new product.
It can really distract from the consistent workthat actually builds valuable tools and

(51:54):
valuable companies over time.
Yeah.
And, you know, I I hope that look.
Marvin is not the last thing I hope to start inlife.
I don't I don't know if I'll start a I probablywon't start a fitness content company again.
Right?
But, like, I love creating things.
So some of the stuff I'm doing in the spiritsworld, the whiskey world, which I've told you
about, like, I creating things.
Mhmm.
And what can get distracting is seeing otherpeople either have quicker success or have a

(52:21):
different type of success or, you know, havethese milestones that are very public.
But a lot of Barbend was built in relativeobscurity
Mhmm.
And in relative silence, and I got distractedfrom that a few times.
Yeah.
And and it was detrimental to my well-being,and it was oftentimes detrimental to the
company.
I think Barbend would have grown faster andbetter if I had been able to stay focused and

(52:45):
not look at the next shiny thing and not havethat green monster, not have envy Mhmm.
You know, come up and and and rear its uglyhead.
And so it's okay to build quietly.
I think building in public is a powerful tool.
I think in the age of social media, it'ssomething very cool that people should take
advantage of, but it is okay to build thingsquietly and consistently, and sometimes that

(53:07):
pays off.
And I hope that's a reflection that sticks withme for a while, and I hope it's something that
you keep me accountable on, my friend.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
The next time you hear me complain and go like,oh, I just I don't think this thing is moving
fast enough.
I I hope you look at me and you're like, David,remember what we talked about?
I'm just gonna give you this timestamp and belike, hey.
You know, remember, I have this on record thatyou said you should take your time and build

(53:30):
slowly, and and, you're right.
I mean, we you know, as as, successful businesspeople, we see competitors in the market.
Yeah.
And they may hit some milestone, we're like,oh, well, what, you know, we're too hard on
ourselves to we're like, wait a minute, like,we're not doing what they're doing.
We weren't mentioned in, in the New York Times.
So what's what's going on?
You know, we're not we're not as popular asthey are.

(53:52):
So I think that's, that's important too.
You know, I think it's, know, a lot of peoplespend a lot of time on PR and, and, buying that
press, where other people can kind of be laserfocused on just building the business and
growing revenue and, and and increasing thevalue of the company.
So, so all good lessons and, you know, reallygood catching up, and we'll, we'll do something

(54:14):
over the summer, man.
Hope to hope to get some FaceTime very soon.
I look forward to it, Joel.
Thank you so much,
my friend.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Appreciate you coming on.