Mary D'Souza: Family Office (Misha Investments)

Joel Palathinkal chats with Mary D'Souza about her journey from education to investment banking, her move to Emirates, and managing a family office. Mary shares her career success pillars: dreaming, focus, manifesting, perseverance, and pivoting. They discuss relationship-building in investment, private credit trends, and entrepreneurship's link with expertise. Insights on Indian investing trends, Southeast Asian media, and distribution channels are shared. Mary also comments on Will Smith's PR challenges and personal branding. She stresses quality in the pharmaceutical industry and offers advice for professionals and entrepreneurs, concluding with gratitude.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
It was a one hour journey from Wall Street toCentral Park.

(00:03):
Sure.
And he said the head of structured finance isgoing to be with me.
And you'll get a chance to get to know him.
And from the right from Wall Street to CentralPark, I got a job at structured finance.
I was able to impress that person.
So I went into structured finance within amonth that read everything, learned everything

(00:24):
and was ready to help not only in executing,but also helping originate transactions.
From there, we had Dresden got Dresden acquiredClam to Benson, and we ended up in the private
equity private placement business.
Welcome to The Investor, a podcast where I,Joel Palafinkel, your host, dives deep into the

(00:48):
minds of the world's most influentialinstitutional investors.
In each episode, we sit down with an investorto hear about their journeys and how global
markets are driving capital allocation.
So join us on this journey as we explore theseinsights.
Okay.
So we're live.

(01:09):
I am really excited today because I'm with amulti year friend.
I've known Mary for several years in New Yorkand got to meet her a couple times, I think,
over the holidays.
Right, Mary?
And excited to to have her just talk about allthings asset management.
Really honored to have her as a guest on thepodcast.

(01:31):
So we've got Mary D'Souza, she's the CIO atMisha Investments.
I'm just gonna give a quick bio and then we'regonna go a little deeper.
But Mary D'Souza is a Managing Director andchief investment officer at a family office
called Misha Investments.
She's responsible for investing in variousasset classes such as private equity, private
debt funds, real estate, venture capital,public securities, and all other alternatives.

(01:55):
She's also a strategic portfolio advisor atStar Mountain Capital.
And she's also on the board of Southern Ag andCommunity Access, which is a nonprofit for
homelessness and low income housing.
She's also a film producer.
And as a CFO, she's been a CFO and a boardmember of a pharma company.
At that role, she's been responsible for allfinancial matters, including budgeting,

(02:19):
forecasting, financial statements, cashmanagement, and M and A activities.
Previously, was a CIO, CFO and head of capitalmarkets for a family office, and then
previously was a managing director at GECapital.
And then prior to that, Dresdener andKleinwertz.

(02:40):
So Mary, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for coming.
I'm excited about this conversation today.
Joel, it's such a pleasure to be here.
Thank you for having me.
And it's been fun getting to know you.
I think the first time we met was in a realstorm in New York.
I can still remember that day.
It was probably one of the heaviest rainfallthat I've ever seen.

(03:04):
But I've had such a great time getting to knowyou.
And I'm really impressed with what you'veachieved in terms of training and empowering so
many emerging managers.
Thank you so much.
It means a lot hearing the kind feedback fromyou.
Really appreciate it.
And, you know, look, you've been a mentor and,a guest speaker at a lot of our events.

(03:28):
So, you know, can't do it with people like youand leaders like you.
And that goes to my next, segue into thisconversation.
So I want, Mary, you know, for you to just go alittle deeper on your career.
You know, walk us through your early childhood,your early education.
You know, what are some things that you tookwith you as you were growing up, developing

(03:50):
your career mindset, and, take us through howyou broke into Wall Street.
Now on that rainy day, you did share somereally inspiring stories of you just coming
into Wall Street.
I have some stories as well when I, you know,made my first way into New York.
And, you know, most people don't most peopledon't survive in New York after maybe one year.

(04:12):
So I think if you can stay in New York formaybe more than twenty four months, I think you
have a chance.
Most people don't.
They go back to the town that they came from.
So let's hear from you.
You know, tell tell the audience and thecommunity a little more about who Mary is.
You know, what did you think you wanted to do?
You know?
And, you know, we're gonna talk about all theother things that you've you've, you know,

(04:34):
invested in and focused on as far as, like,being a producer and, you know, other
industries that have interested you.
But I'm just curious, you know, about, youknow, what was in your head when you were kind
of getting started and then the story of howyou got into Wall Street.
So ever since I was a little kid, I was veryfocused.
I was a voracious reader.
I'd finished reading most of the books in myschool library by the time I was 11.

(04:59):
And I don't know if it's a good thing, but Iread and read Adler's Shrugged when I was 11
years old.
Yeah, that's a good one.
Yes, I loved dreaming.
I was very creative.
I wrote poetry.
I even started writing a book when I was verylittle.
I always knew I wanted to come to New York,even when I was a little kid.

(05:25):
Ever since a little kid, I decided that I wouldpick up all the skill sets that were needed to
become successful.
So not only did I read a lot, focused onlearning about classical music, dancing,
languages.

(05:45):
I learned German when I was very, very young.
We learned French in school, so I decided topick up another language.
I was very lucky to be educated in a commonschool and to grow up in a Catholic parish
because you get a lot of skill sets.
They teach you how to lead and there's allkinds of competitions where you learn a lot of

(06:09):
different skills.
I always knew I wanted to go to St.
Xavier's, it's one of the best colleges as youknow in Bombay and also in India for Liberal
Arts.
It's not just studying but it's also learninghow to be a good human being but also having a
lot of EQ skills apart from IQ skills.
And that's what St.

(06:29):
Xavier's taught me.
St.
Xavier's taught me to be a citizen of theworld.
I went there to study economics and ended upstudying sociology because there was a Jesuit
priest called Father Rudy who said you're goingto learn a lot more studying under me and I
learned philosophy, learned about how tonavigate the world, right?

(06:52):
I mean, can learn economics on your own, butthose are the kind of skill sets that you learn
from going to an institution like SaintXavier's.
When I graduated, I knew I didn't want to be abanker.
I thought I was going to be a writer.
I love traveling.
So the first job I looked for was in a travelagency.

(07:13):
And
when I interviewed probably one of the familymembers of the family that owned DHL in India,
he said, you're not going to work for thetravel agency, I'm going to send you to DHL.
And that was the best call.
And this person was the nicest person and gaveme a start of my career.

(07:37):
And I learned customer relations and alsosales, which is very important to know those
two aspects right from the beginning.
And I was also the face of DHL, I was in the TVcampaign.
So that was a lot of fun.
It was just one screenshot and then because Ithink there were so many cameras the

(08:02):
electricity went off so they had to use thefirst shot of the TV.
Those production costs can go up right?
I knew I wanted to travel and then within ayear I interviewed with several airlines and as
soon as I interviewed with Emirates airline Iknew that was it.

(08:25):
I had a connection with that person, weconnected, I spoke German, The following year
they were going to open the German routes andso within a year I got, you know, called, I got
my medical set, medicals and everything andwent to Dubai, worked for Emirates.
I was also recruited by the Royal Family towork for them.

(08:49):
I did get a chance to meet Sheikh Mohammed andthe Royal Family members.
Emirates was really great to work for And thepeople were really nice.
We were so young and we were treated reallywell.
I think I learned all the skills I needed ininvestment banking from flying when you have to

(09:09):
deal with so many difficult people andturbulence and everything you're like set for
life.
Know how to handle any other situation thatcomes along.
I knew that know, Emirates was just a step.
It was not my final destination.
I came to New York after Emirates, went to PaceUniversity, I quickly realized I needed to get

(09:36):
an internship.
I met the HR person from Dresner and he invitedme to come and work in HR at Dresner.
And then a month later he said, I'm going tothe JPMorgan run.
It was a one hour journey from Wall Street toCentral Park.

(09:57):
Sure.
And he said the head of structured finance isgoing to be with me and you'll get a chance to
get to know him.
And from the right from Wall Street to CentralPark, I got a job at structured finance.
I was able to impress that person.
So I went into structured finance.
Within a month, had read everything, learnedeverything, and was ready to help not only in

(10:20):
executing, but also helping originatetransactions.
From there, had Dresden acquired Clamden Bensonand we ended up in the private equity private
placement business.
So I got to see investment grade privateplacements.
I was able to price everything to a basis pointbecause I'd spent so much time on that asset

(10:42):
class.
And then fundraising and then raising money forventure capital deals.
So I got 25,000,000 out of Enron on our veryfirst fund which was a fund for Central America
called Caribbean Basin Fund And it all happenedbecause I thought strategically.

(11:04):
I was like, who are the potential investors fora fund in Central America, right?
I'm like, not everybody.
And so I caught up the wealth management groupat Dresner in Miami and they said, well,
there's one of our family offices that's goingto come to New York.

(11:24):
And when the guy came to New York, he said,well, I want to invest and I'm having dinner
with the people from Enron.
You should come.
And he seated me next to her and the rest washistory.
Worked with him.
And believe relationships are really important.
So I was working on a deal called EnergiaGlobal, which was in Costa Rica.

(11:45):
Very tough deal, very early stage.
I got AIGGE involved and there was a guy calledPatrick Longmire.
And one of the things that I've realized inlife is, you know, you have a great rapport
with somebody to make sure that when they'reready to pull the trigger, they have you

(12:06):
involved.
And so as a young analyst associate, I'vemanaged to close on two of the very most
difficult transactions.
And then that kind of helped me to move aheadbecause I'd done that.
I got a job at GE Capital.

(12:27):
John Nichols, who hired me, quickly realizedwithin half an hour that I didn't need to know
the asset class, that I was a quick learner andI didn't need to know asset based lending or
leveraged finance that I would learn it.
And I tell people nothing is rocket science,right?
True.
Nothing is rocket science except rocketscience.
Sure.

(12:48):
So you can always pick up skills very quicklyand you can pick up whatever asset class you're
going to get involved in pretty quickly.
I worked at Dresden for a decade.
I built their private credit business.
I did about 150 deals, 15,000,000,000 while Iwas there.

(13:09):
I did Delta's two billion dollars bankruptcyfinancing.
And one of the interesting deals that I did wasRadNet, which I failed twice in the
marketplace.
Third time was a charm, I got it done.
And today it's one of the most successfulcompanies in NASDAQ.
When I picked up the deal, was $0.10 on thedollar, it was trading at $0.10 And when we

(13:30):
closed the deal, it was $10 and today it's it'sabout five x or six x that.
And the reason I was able to do that is becauseI first look at management and with RadNet,
after I spoke to the CEO, I knew this personhad so much domain expertise, I could put him

(13:53):
in front of investors and get a restructuringdone.
So domain expertise is so important, right?
And after spending a decade at Dresdenham Iended up in the family office space.
One of my clients who had done a couple ofdeals for asked me to run his family office, so
I did that for three years.

(14:14):
Then I went and worked with my sister and herhusband in their pharmaceutical business,
becoming a CFO as well as a board member andhelping them with their business.
And then three years ago, and I've been runningthe family office since 2016.
So in addition to that, worked as a CFO andthen three years ago I was asked by Stem Martin

(14:39):
to become a strategic portfolio advisor, didn'task for that position.
It's just that it's all about relationships,right?
Somebody knows you really well, they give you acall.
It was the same with the family office.
I didn't ask for that job.
One thing I'll say too, you know, whichresonated with me was when you know, you talked

(15:02):
about rapport, right?
So when you build rapport with somebody, Ithink they can already detect if they can work
with you.
But I think one thing that's really importantis, you know, that previous manager that told
you to go for that, you know, run and networkwith that structured finance group.
I think an important thing to keep in mind is,you know, as you build rapport with people,

(15:23):
they look out for you and, you know, they theythink about, you know, where you could really
shine.
And those are the people that you wanna workfor.
Those are the mentors that you wanna have inyour life, people that actually want you to be
successful because some people, you know, mayget territorial.
You know, if you start growing up the ranks,you know, they're protective, where other
people, they just wanna see you fly and andshine.

(15:44):
And I think that relates to working withpeople.
It works with friendships, maybe romanticrelationships.
Right?
You wanna be with people that that like helpyou fly and also like people that you want to
see fly as well.
Right?
I think, you know, it goes both ways, right?
You want to I think all of us will hopefullywant to see other people successful, that kind

(16:07):
of rubs off on you as well, but you know,through those contacts also.
I totally agree, right?
I mean, at the end of the day, always tellpeople, you want to be nice, you want to be
kind, you want to be helpful.
And, you know when you take care of others,don't expect anything back.
Most of the time you get rewarded by somebodyyou absolutely think was going to do something

(16:31):
for you.
Sure.
You know it is basically the world, know it'sit's basically karma.
You know?
Mhmm.
It takes care of you.
So you don't have to worry about that.
You just have to go on your merry way doingbeing the best you can be.
Yeah.
And it's, you know, it's a journey.
Right?
So I think even for even for me, you know, mycareer, it was it, you know, it had ups and

(16:57):
downs.
I learned a lot.
You know, I made changes.
And, you know, that takes me to the fivepillars that you and I discussed.
Right?
So it's dreaming, focus, manifest, persevere,and pivot.
So that's something that I wanna talk about alittle deeper with you, Mary.

(17:18):
You know, maybe you can elaborate on those fivepillars and how you've lived by those five
pillars and, you know, advise your mentees onon those pillars in terms of, you know, life,
relationships and career.
Let's talk about dreaming, right?
I always say dream big and when I was a littlekid I would tell my mother what I was going to
do and my mom would look at me and startlaughing and say you're such a dreamer right.

(17:43):
Yeah and I'm like if you don't dream how do youknow what you want to do you know and if you
don't dream big, how are you going to everachieve something?
You have to work towards something.
You have to manifest it, right?
And I was thinking the other day, right, whenam I unhappy?
I'm unhappy when I'm not dreaming aboutsomething the next day.

(18:08):
Because I always want to evolve and I alwayswant to get better and always want to be able
to contribute more in terms of the world,whether helping other people or making a
change.
So I just believe that you have to dream big.

(18:29):
And if you don't dream big, you don't getanywhere because there's nothing to work
towards.
I love that.
And I was joking with you, Mary.
I sometimes struggle with finding the rightbook to read.
Listen to a lot of audio books.
So I just finished a few of them and I'm likenow starting a new book.

(18:49):
So Bill Gates just had a new book called SourceCode.
So I'm like, oh, this is interesting.
Maybe it's about his childhood.
And he starts nerding out about Source Code andI just like tune out.
I'm like, this is not I'm not gonna read thisbook.
And then there's a book that I downloaded a fewdays ago.
It's called The Magic of Thinking Big.
It's by David Schwartz.
I'll ping the link here, but I just started it,the first maybe thirty minutes of it, it's just

(19:15):
like they talk about a selection of,professionals that they've analyzed.
And, many of them came from the same pedigree.
Many of them have the same education, samefamily.
But the difference was that, you know, thepeople that, you know, maybe had a somewhat 10
x, return in their in their career were thepeople that actually just thought bigger than

(19:35):
themselves.
Probably even had dreams that theyrealistically couldn't achieve unless they were
a little delusional.
And I think delusion and dream, they could useit interchangeably.
But I think dreaming is really the first piece.
Now we're going to talk about the other piecesbecause with dreaming, have this big vision,
but you need some type of strategy and focus.

(19:58):
Sure.
And see, at the end of the day, you also haveto know what your strengths and weaknesses are,
And then you see if that dream is achievable.
Do you have the tools in order to make thatdream come true?
And you have to stay focused, Pick up whateverskills are needed to get there.

(20:19):
Network with whatever people you need tonetwork with.
Do whatever it takes, right?
And stay the course.
I think it's so important to persevere, whenthings are not going right.
I always say the sun always rises, you may havea few cloudy days, but the sun will eventually

(20:40):
rise.
And you'll you'll you'll get there.
You have to manifest it.
And you may be on a certain path and somewherealong the path you realize, you know, you may
be the CEO of a company and you realizetechnology is changing.
You got to pivot.
You realize that you've done this for so long.

(21:02):
It's not exciting you anymore.
You got to pivot.
So when it's necessary, you should pivot.
But I say there's nothing like hard work andperseverance to get to where you want to get
to.
Yeah, and I feel like a lot of people pivot atcertain points in their life where they just
want to redefine.
You know, they don't want their career and whatthey've built to define them.

(21:27):
You can pivot and reinvent yourself.
A lot of people have done that.
There is the concept of second chances, right?
There's a lot of people that we know in thenews and media that are very successful that
kind of don't have as much of a rosy past.
Know, and now they're running a multi billiondollar private equity fund, right?

(21:48):
So I think it's okay to deal with thosechallenges as long as you can persevere.
That's for founders too.
Right?
I mean, and when you and we're we're gonna talkabout emerging managers in a little bit, but
emerging managers are founders at the end ofthe day, right?
They're gonna, you know, deal with alldifferent types of market conditions and still
try to be resilient and weather the storm.

(22:11):
I totally agree.
And it's so important to have self reflection,To take stock of your life from time to time
and yourself from time to time, right?
And decide what is it you like about yourselfand what is it you don't like about yourself
and work on it.
And I think that also helps you be successful.

(22:31):
How often do you think we should do that?
Do you think we should do it quarterly,monthly?
I don't think there's a time period.
I I think when something's not going right, yousit then you say, is it not going right?
What do I need to do?
Am I the problem?
Or is the situation beyond my control?

(22:52):
So you got to sit and analyze everything andthen you have to think, I need to pick up
another skill?
Do I have to be a little bit more thoughtful?
Do I have to be a little bit more patient?
Do I have to be a little bit more nicer kinder?
You really have to sit and think it through.
And every situation calls for a differentresponse.
With you being an entrepreneurial family aswell, you know, lot of this ties together,

(23:18):
right?
Being an investor, being an entrepreneur, youknow, many of the lessons flow together.
But what are some of the things that you adviseentrepreneurs as they're getting through tough
times, you know, to kind of weather the storm?
You know, can they do you think it's good to,have a close team of people to talk to about

(23:38):
those challenges and maybe come up with asolution?
And I think that's really important to tobasically mean, your your team culture should
be very inclusive Mhmm.
And open.
And so you should be able to talk to your teammembers.
But I also think whenever you're building abusiness or whatever it is, you have to build a

(24:00):
network of both friends and people from theindustry who can be helpful.
And you do that all the time, not just when youhave an issue, because that's what's going to
help you and that sometimes comes to rescueyou.
So it's really, really important to pick upreally good people along the way and always try

(24:24):
to also pick up people who are smarter than mealong the way.
They make me a lot more smarter.
Sure.
When I think of the word manifest, right,because that's the level three that we're
talking about.
I'm almost thinking of like willing it tohappen, Like, you know, your mental energy,
your spiritual energy.

(24:44):
You know, you wanna launch a fund.
Right?
It's a big dream.
You wanna be the next Blackstone, so you'refocused.
Right?
You're focused on maybe getting some workexperience.
You're focused on finding deals.
You know, you're you're taking 1,500 LPmeetings in the next few months.
But the but it still needs to happen somehow.
Right?
So when you say manifest, can you elaborate onthat a little bit in terms of kinda how we

(25:09):
should think about that?
I mean, along with manifest has to come a lotof groundwork, right?
So at the end of the day, say fundraising.
Pretty I know that area very well, because thatwas one of the first things I did when I got
into investment banking.
And so you say, okay, you know, I have aventure capital fund, right?
Sure.

(25:29):
It's my audience, right?
It's a first time fund, right?
Yeah.
So who's your audience going to be?
It's going to be friends and family and peoplein that industry.
You know, you're doing a VC fund, probably wantto find people in the tech industry who know
the space really well and would be not onlyinvestors, but also strategic partners.

(25:49):
Right?
You know, see, I mean, in terms of managerselection, when you when you talk about that, I
look for people with really serious domainexpertise.
Mhmm.
People with a really great team, not onlyexperienced but have a lot of depth in terms of

(26:13):
all kinds of skill sets.
I look for a culture, a culture that's veryinclusive, where every employee is incentivized
in some form or the other and has some equityin the fund of the company.
And management provides them with a lot ofgrowth opportunities and also a lot of

(26:35):
training.
So they have to grow.
Communication, I think is very important forwhether it's the CEO of a company or for a fund
to be able to continue to do really greatcommunication with the LPs in a very timely
manner.
And at the end of the day playing the longgame.

(27:00):
It
is I totally agree.
Yeah.
I mean, it's we, you know, we we mentionedthis, and I think it's good to even just talk
about this now.
But, I mean, I'll I'll share, and I thinkyou'll have some stories as well.
But, like, you know, there's been people thatI've taken, like, coffee chats with kids, you
know, and then like, a couple years later,they're like a CIO and like a large
institutional LP.

(27:22):
Part of me is like, man, thank God, like, I'mfriends, you know, I helped this person because
because they, you know, they would you know,where where they are now, it's a very
influential position.
So you never know where, you know, people aregonna go, and I think just playing the long
game, you know, definitely helps.
Because you it's just such you know, New York,people see it from the outside as, like, just

(27:45):
this big city.
And, you know, we see it in the movies, but,you know, everybody knows everybody.
And, you know, even when you go to Singapore,know, even in the industry, everyone goes to
the same conferences.
So it's still a small ecosystem.
So I think it's just important to kinda focuson relationships.
And I another piece of advice that I got froman LP was like, look.

(28:07):
You know, if an if an LP just wants to catch upfor no reason, even if you're in market or not,
just take the take the meeting and build thatrelationship and ask them about their family,
ask them about, you know, how they're doing.
And I think that goes really further than justkind of learning about their deployment cycle.

(28:28):
And I totally agree.
I mean, I'm invested in StemOnin capital in allof the funds.
And if I have to call somebody, respond reallyquickly.
It's the same with Iron Pillar, which is anIndia growth fund.
I also think it's really, really important tobe very, very not only focused but disciplined

(28:53):
and to really respect LPs capital.
Right?
Like, for example, with someone in capital, ifthey have a three X on on the next race, they
take some chips off the table and return thecapital to the LPs.
And I think that that's really good discipline.
I like to play in the lower middle marketspace, whether it's in private credit or

(29:18):
private equity and that's why I chose StairMountain Capital, right, because they do it
with a private equity expertise and they have alot of operational expertise.
And what happens is things go wrong, you haveCOVID, you have interest rates going up, but if
you don't have the skill set, you cannot workout a problem credit.

(29:39):
And every private equity or private credit fundis going to have some problem investments.
You need the expertise within the teams to workit out and a lot of times you end up getting a
higher return because of that expertise.
Sure.
So when I invest, I care a lot about who I'minvesting in, what type of values they have,

(30:04):
whether they are responsive, because it's also,as I tell people, it's a long term relationship
and not just a transaction, you know, for ashort period of time.
No, I totally agree.
When it comes to private credit, are there any,you know, trends that you're seeing or, you
know, despite the fact of the interest rates,but what are some of the attributes that you

(30:25):
like about private credit?
So that's why think manager selection is soimportant because you just can't classify
private credit broadly.
Sure.
Because you know, you have low middle market,middle market, you have large gap, and they're
all very different from each other, right? The
The large gap side, the managers think thatthey can trade out of something if the credit

(30:46):
starts going wrong and you don't getcompensated for the risk and you don't have any
control because you don't have any covenants.
On the middle market side it's almost the sameas the large cap side.
I like private credit funds where you havecovenants, where you have some control because

(31:08):
when things start going wrong you can step inand take charge and you know work on your
investment.
So I like, that's the reason why I also likegrowth equity in the VC space and I don't like
seed rounds because I'm not into like pray andspray.

(31:28):
Sure.
Right?
So I think domain expertise, I think depth ofthe team in terms of experience and being
through various cycles and having a team thatcan add a lot of value, right?
It's just not investing, but if you can workwith the companies and you say, okay, I can
bring this to the table, that to the table,take you global, it's so much better than just

(31:53):
making a passive investment.
Yeah, and I would say depending on theindustry, you know, the good thing about middle
market is you're usually in profit, you know,most of the companies are already profitable,
depending on the type of business it is, Ifit's some type of logistics company or
healthcare services business, most of thosecompanies are in profit where and then they get
into growth equity, but they're stillprofitable in growth equity versus a growth

(32:18):
equity deal that came from like a seed venturestyle kind of deal.
You're still kind of taking a little bit ofrisk because most of those software companies
that are in the group even when you'reinvesting, they're still not profitable.
It's usually on the verge of being profitable,maybe one or two years before there's some type

(32:39):
of exit event.
Know, hopefully, they're gearing up for like anIPO and then they're they're close to being
profitable.
But even then they're not.
But that's why I like middle market because alot of those companies are run pretty
efficiently, capital efficiently.
They haven't taken on too much leverage andthey're just kind of self funding their growth

(32:59):
up until maybe their last financing.
Right, right.
And know, that's what management like I alwayskeep emphasizing, manager selection is very
important.
Because if you come across a company, and yousay, oh my God, you know, I thought I made the
right decision, but this is not going to workout like the way I thought it's going to work

(33:20):
out.
Sure.
And when you have a chance, you just pull thetrigger and sell.
So the company and even if you return one time,the capital back, investors are going to be
happy because you didn't take additional riskof waiting because the longer you waited on
something like that, the less of capital you'dget back, forget about a return.

(33:40):
So so for managers to be very cognizant of,especially if you're in the technology space to
realize, hey, the technology at this time wasreally interesting, but something else has come
up.
And, you know, this this thing's not gonna workbecause the technology has moved onwards.
I totally agree.
So I've had a few managers, they call thisdarts on the board, you know, so they were

(34:03):
like, Joel, like I have, you know, I was justkind of advising a few of them.
And they're like, Joel, I have an opportunityto maybe just sell some positions maybe from
some secondaries, and that would actually showsome DPI, or should I just hold on to it and
hope to have a bigger, you know, multiple laterand show show paper gains?
You know?
And I was like, look at this this you know, inmy opinion.

(34:24):
Right?
I mean, you're the GP, but I think those dartson the board show that you're bringing back,
you know, the you know, bringing back somecapital to your LPs.
And even if it's a smaller DPI, it's justsomething that you can show that there's some
returns coming There's
nothing wrong in taking a quarter or a half offthe table and letting the rest ride.

(34:47):
You're still going to show a very healthyreturn and your LPs are still going to be
happy.
But, you know, if if you were like saying,okay, here's a 10 x on paper.
Mhmm.
And then a year later, it's a it's a two x orsomething.
Yeah.
You know, LP is going be pretty upset or ifit's a zero.
Mhmm.
So you're better off just being able to returnsomething to the employees.

(35:10):
Yeah.
So, you know, manager selection, I think yougave some really great insights.
When we talk to our peers that are otherfamilies, you know, some things that I think
about is just kinda what their goals are.
So, like, other some families wanna think aboutcompounding capital.
Some families wanna think about assetprotection.

(35:30):
So I think as you're thinking about managerselection, also asset allocation, I think a lot
of that trickles down from what their higherlevel goals are.
So I was wondering what your reaction to thatis or if you've heard any other thoughts around
that methodology when it comes to asset I'm
so happy you asked the question, right?
Because just think of the market in April,right?

(35:54):
If you're all in just public equities, youwould be feeling really bad.
Sure.
You know because there was a draw almost everyday at the beginning of the month.
Yeah.
And you'd wonder when it
would
stop.
But if you're pre diversified and you havemaybe 50 or 60% in public equities, because you

(36:15):
always need that liquidity, you know?
Sure.
And then have the rest in whether it's privatecredit, private equity, venture capital, real
estate, or some form of alternatives, right?
And I always think you have to have a mixturebetween something that gives you a pretty good

(36:36):
return, like private credit can give you 10 to15%.
And that's income, It's good to have someincome.
And then on the other side, and real estatetoo, right?
And on the other side you have a barbellapproach and you have some funds or some
investments where you take a little bit morerisk for that real alpha.

(36:58):
So you have to have a pretty diversifiedportfolio in order to sleep at night.
That's how I think about it too.
And I think there's a whole rise right now ofentrepreneurship through acquisition.
So people are buying businesses that arealready making 3 to 5,000,000 in revenue and

(37:21):
then they're operators, so it's a lot morework.
So I haven't done any of that yet.
But it's an interesting model because I mean,instead of investing, you're investing capital,
you're an operational efficient expert whereyou can come in and then turn that company to
maybe a $10.15000000 company.
And that's real money that's like flowing intoa bank account.

(37:43):
So if you can really have somebody that'soperating that and you're good at operating and
finding the talent, I think that's a greatthing to add to your portfolio.
And it goes back to what you're good at, right?
So some of these families, they come frommanufacturing, so it makes sense for them to
invest in, AI that supports manufacturing ormanufacturing three d printing processes,

(38:07):
that's kind of vertically integrated thatsupports their family businesses.
So I think that's also something that I've beenhearing too, kind of making strategic
investments kind of aligned to your industryexpertise, pretty much.
That's a really good point, Joe.
Because one of the other family offices I'veworked for, the patriarch, whenever he just

(38:30):
focused on his domain expertise and theindustry that he was really great at, didn't
matter if it was troubled company that he tookand worked on.
He always got like a four or five, six X onthat.
So to focus on something that you have realdomain expertise and to be cognizant of it, I

(38:56):
mean, know what your strengths are and whereyou can make money and not dabble in stuff,
especially with people who were notexperienced.
And
that's where you lose money.
I mean if it's somebody who's an expert in thatspace, maybe you want to put a little chips on
the table, but you want to get to know thatperson really well and see how they execute

(39:20):
before you put in more.
So I really think domain expertise is reallyimportant and also I think character is very
important because the person doesn't havevalues then you never know if you're going get
investment back.
Sure.
Yeah, I think also two other people that Ilooked up to is obviously Sam Zell.

(39:41):
And then there was a couple other books thatjust talk about how they look at these private
equity deals.
But Sam Zell, as you know, known as the gravedancer.
Right?
He would find companies that are pretty muchdying, but he did a lot of diligence and he
would do very skeptical diligence modeling outessentially like the worst case.
And a lot of the companies, what he believedand based on my readings is that he liked to

(40:05):
buy companies that were asset heavy becauseover time you could sell those assets, get some
liquidity.
And if you maybe modernize some of thoseassets, it could generate more revenue
channels.
And I think he pretty much just took thesebusinesses that were dying and then had the
operational expertise to kind of bring themback to life and turn them into billion dollar

(40:28):
businesses.
So I thought that was But again, those werekind of aligned to his talent and what he's
good at.
You can't get a venture guy to do that, right?
So, you know, he's just an entrepreneur'sentrepreneur for multiple decades.
So he's able to do that.
So I thought that was really interesting.
And then, you know, expanding and talking aboutexpanding, I think it was really interesting

(40:49):
that you were a movie producer.
And you've also emphasized in some of ourconversations that it's important to be well
rounded.
And I totally believe that too.
Early in when I was in high school, I used tohave a huge interest in music.
And I thought when I was a kid, was going to bea musician until my parents told me, hey, up
and be an engineer.

(41:12):
And you can always have music as a hobby,right?
Yeah, you can always
have music as your hobby.
Yeah.
So tell me how you got into movie productionand maybe some of the projects that you've been
involved in.
And then and then we'll talk about some othertrends as well.
I mean, started out at GE, as you know, we ownUniversal, right?
So I did work on a couple of projects while Iwas at GE.

(41:35):
One was a company called Film Department,raised capital for that, and really got to know
that space really well working on it.
The other one was working on a slate forUniversal.
So got to meet some of the players in thatspace and understand how everything works from

(41:55):
production to distribution and stuff like that.
Yeah.
And then after I left GE, there were a numberof people wanted me to either raise money for
them or get involved in their projects.
There are a lot of shysters in that business Soyou have to be very
Everybody's look, mean, main comment to that,Mary, is everybody's raising.

(42:20):
Favorite story was there was a fund to fundthat I met and I was like, you're a great guy.
You're a friend of mine.
You should just meet another LP that's alsojust a great person.
And it's funny because it was a family office.
The family office actually had a fund and thenthey both just pitched each other.

(42:42):
So the fund of fund was hoping that the familywould invest in his fund and then the family
had a fund.
He's like, oh, well, why don't you check out myfund?
So they just pitched each other.
So my reaction to that is everybody's raising.
And sometimes yeah.
I mean, it's sometimes just confusing becausepeople are just pitching each other.
Okay.
So that's yeah.
So I I especially if you have a network and aRolodex, you know, will just kind of come after

(43:08):
you as a target for capital.
I believe in respecting people's capital,right?
And I also believe in people having values.
And those are people I surround myself with.
Sure.
And so yeah, so I studied as film director fora couple of years before I invested in his

(43:29):
first, know, he had already done like about sixor seven movies before that.
So I got involved in All Days of the Cola, Iwas the last money in, first money out.
I got my money back within two months becausehe sold the movie, it played in cinemas, we had
the most beautiful premiere at one of the mostbeautiful theaters in New York and then we had

(43:58):
the after party at the Carlyle Hotel.
So when you invest, you invest in all of thoserevenue?
It was the money in.
Got it.
So it was almost done.
We needed the last money to finish it up.
So I already saw the product.
Sure.
Yeah.
And I was able to invite all my friends to thepremiere and to the after party and it was like

(44:23):
a Woody Allen movie you
know.
Nice.
Of course Woody Allen used to play at the KalalHotel.
Oh sure, yeah.
Yeah and then the second one was on this filmdirector called Alan Pakula, unfortunately
happened during COVID times.
The third one that's been pretty successful isBob Mackie, he's had quite a year last year

(44:45):
with Zendaya wearing his dress and Miley Cyrus,he's got a lot of publicity and also an award
from the film, from the fashion industry.
And right now currently you're working on TheComedy Seller.
It's a series with some of the top comedytalent.

(45:06):
So it's my fun side, right?
Sure.
Mean, I believe in having various differentthings to keep life interesting.
I love to travel and every year I go to acouple of new places that I've never been to
before.
So it's all part of leading an interestinglife.

(45:27):
This is not in our script, but what's somethingthat you learned from maybe the last couple of
places you traveled?
It's really interesting, right?
Like go to Spain, right?
And you look at how happy people are.
It's not about money.
It's about family.
It's about, the community.

(45:47):
It's, about nature.
All of those things.
And everything is super clean.
Right?
I mean, you don't need a lot of money to lead ahappy, fulfilled life.
And you learn that by traveling because when welive in New York, we want the next best
restaurant, know, buy the next bag or whateverit is, right?

(46:11):
Sure.
And keep up with the journalists.
Whereas you go to some of these differentplaces and you go to some of these different
towns, you realize people are just happy.
No, I agree.
One of my team members moved to Spain.
I mean, was from Switzerland.
I think her husband was in Argentina, but,like, they both decided to live in Spain and,
you know, the quality of life is is great.

(46:34):
Their their kids go to private school, andit's, like, affordable.
So Yeah.
There's definitely a different perspective, youknow, going and I have a good friend of mine
that lives in the city.
He's a family office and his kids are grown andhe's just like, look, I'm thinking we're
thinking about maybe just living in living inEurope for Yeah.
For maybe a year.

(46:55):
There is nothing I would say like New York atthe end of the day.
I know if you feel this, my wife and I feelwhenever we fly back to New York and we're in
the cab coming back, you start seeing all thelights, I still get a sense of excitement.
I'm like, I'm coming back to New York.
And you just, you know, it's the same feelinglike when you felt when you were 20 in your

(47:16):
twenties, right?
Kind of coming into New York, coming into thecity.
So that for me is still there.
I was just curious if you felt the same.
I totally agree.
And I love to go to the same restaurants fromtime to time because I get treated so well,
right?
I tell people there's no service culture likethe restaurant culture in New York.

(47:41):
You get treated so amazingly well.
One thing I'll say too is, you know, so I hadfamily come in and we took them to like Murray
Hill.
We took them to some Indian restaurants.
And you know what?
One thing that I will say an observation is thefood, you know, depending you know, probably
take any culture is probably in this is myopinion.

(48:03):
Right?
So this could be provocative, but I feel thefood actually tastes better here than it does
actually in India.
So, like, I've had South Indian food, and Ithink it's because also you have to be
competitive to still be in business.
If you're not amazing, there's a lot ofrestaurants that shut down.
Where I think in India and I have friends thatare from Southeast Asia from Hong Kong as well.

(48:27):
They're like, look, the food is okay, butthere's just so many people.
They'll still be in business, right?
Because it's just the population is so crazy.
But here it's like if the food is not good,there's just so many reviewers and just so many
other great restaurants.
It's very competitive.
But again, that's just my hot take on justmulticultural food in New York.
I totally agree.

(48:48):
However, Mumbai is very competitive.
Is pretty much like New York.
It is totally like New But I feel a lothealthier when I eat over here because there's
less fat in the food over here.
Sure.
So now that we're talking about India, we bothhave invested in India and I just want to talk

(49:11):
about you know, just trends in India.
But one thing on the cultural side that Inoticed, you know, I went to, an Asian concert
this weekend, you know, and it was reallyinteresting because the music sounded very
progressive, and it's not like the traditionaltype of music that maybe our parents or
grandparents listen to.

(49:32):
And there's a couple there's a bunch of newartists that performed at Coachella.
And, you know, for me, that that actually makesme feel a little proud to see, you know, not
only Southeast Asia, but just other differentcultures blending and kinda this new
generation.
Right?
This new generation of artists, they'redeveloping essentially kind of a an iteration

(49:54):
to the genres of music that were there before.
And it's just kinda nice to see thesedifferent, you know, cultures be put on the map
as, mainstream media, not only in music, butalso in in film.
Right?
I mean, M Night Shyamalan, I mean, lot like,his last few movies, they were all banger
movies.
I mean, I I enjoyed all of them.
So Mhmm.

(50:15):
It's just really cool to see, you know, thedemographic of just, you know, Southeast Asia
now coming to the West and really putting adent in the media space as well.
I totally agree.
I mean, with social media, Netflix and AmazonPrime and all of that, people can see what's

(50:40):
happening in different parts of the world,right?
And in terms of music, there's always so muchcollaboration in that space.
Sure.
Right?
Musicians like to hang out with musicians.
Yeah.
Unlike investment bankers.
Sure.
I'm just joking.
But musicians love to hang out with musiciansand that's one of the most creative business.

(51:02):
But at the end of the day, I tell you, I loveNetflix because I get to see all the creative
stuff from different parts of the world.
Sure.
And there's so much interesting movies andmusic and everything happening and art, right,
happening in all the different parts of theworld and we can sit at home and have access to

(51:27):
all of that today.
Yeah, I totally agree.
And I think part of it really is just havingthe right distribution channel.
So like, you know, the it's just those channelsweren't there back in the day.
I saw that, you know, one thing that was reallyinspiring was the documentary of Martha
Stewart.
I don't know if you saw that.
Think it was on that one.

(51:47):
Did see it.
I loved I loved it.
It was very well made.
And she's incredible.
I mean, talking about pivoting.
Yeah.
And talking about reinventing.
Mhmm.
And how was new dot?
I mean, that combination is
The combination.
But you know what's interesting is she wentback to her brand.

(52:07):
Yes.
Which, you know, and I think that's part of,you know, you know, you parallel that to
investing.
Part of it is control.
Right?
So she think when she was trying to reinventherself, she got some contracts with some
other, you know, TV TV networks, and they werepretty much just telling her what to do.
And it wasn't really it wasn't really truthfulto her brand and how she wanted to portray home

(52:34):
living.
Yeah.
And, she was just doing a bunch of weirdcharades, and she didn't feel herself.
And I just think that blew up.
But, you know, she reinvented herself.
You know, she got she got out of prison.
She I think she came back out when she did theJustin Bieber roast.
I don't know if you saw that, but that
was hilarious.
Saw that.
I thought that was incredible.
She's sitting next to Snoop.
Yeah.

(52:54):
And she reinvented herself.
I mean, and she and, you know, no nobody knewthat she was so funny, right?
Because she was pretty much she was such aruthless business person.
Yeah.
You know, building building the company thatshe had.
So you kinda got to see the more human side ofher.
And I think part of, you know, going throughthese PR nightmares, you see the perfect

(53:15):
pathway to, to your sister.
Right?
But, like, let's talk about PR.
Right?
I mean, she was shunned as somebody that thatwas, you know, convicted felon, you know,
convicted committed securities fraud, went toprison, and, now she's reinvented herself.
She's, you know, liar.

(53:35):
Think think the reason why she is where she isbecause she's always been very authentic.
Yeah.
I mean, Martha's Martha.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
There's no two questions about it.
Right?
And and she's done it her way.
Sure.
Had she just let somebody else tell a story anddetermine where she was gonna go, that wouldn't

(53:56):
have happened.
She stayed the course, she persevered and she'sbigger than ever.
I'm I'm starting to see Will Smith a lot in myfeed.
And Yeah.
It's it's funny.
I mean, after, obviously, the the slap withChris Rock, I mean, there was a lot of
backlash, but he's got a few banger songs thatcame out.

(54:19):
And, like, you know, people are seeing him,like, becoming more positive and happy.
And I think what part of what he did too iswith a lot of his music and his raps, the
recent ones, like, last couple months, he'sposting on all the channels.
He's pretty much agreeing and admitting all thethings that he dealt with, all the demons that
he had, just kinda facing them.

(54:39):
And I think that shows authenticity.
And I'm seeing, like, the comments, and they'renot hateful.
They're like, hey.
You know, I'm glad to see Will back and and,glad to see, him him making music again.
So I think, you know, when you deal with PR,and we're gonna talk about your sister in a
second, but I think this is a perfect segue.
Like, I think people can deal with PRnightmares.
We can talk about resilience and and being ableto get through that.

(55:03):
But you can always reinvent yourself and pivotlike you said, right?
And I wanna go to the next point, which isrelationships and how your sister has just
built an amazing brand being in the PR space.
She doesn't have to do much marketing.
It sounds like she gets a lot of inbound.
Just maybe take a couple seconds to maybe sharea little more about just your experience with

(55:26):
relationships and also just maybe thoughtsaround PR, maybe some things that you learned
from your sister.
Yeah, my sister Nimi, she founded a businesstwenty years ago, right?
She's very good in the technology space,cybersecurity space.
She's had clients like Cisco, Ring has aclients and Nvidia too.

(55:48):
So she's very good at PR in The Middle East andNorth Africa and India.
And the reason why her clients like her reallywell is because she is totally focused and
makes sure that she provides them with a reallygood product, right?
She enables them to build their brand reallywell.

(56:13):
And she gives her all.
So when you work with her, you really like her.
And when you end up going to another firm,always take her with you.
So all the clients that she has are peoplewho've worked with her before.
And it comes from having those meaningfulrelationships with people you work with and

(56:39):
also having the brand of always providingexcellence.
No, I totally agree.
And part of your thoughts around focus, waskind of the second step after the dream, I
think part of focus is also just holdingyourself to a certain standard.
Right?
So when you buy an iPhone, you're alreadyaccepting expecting some type of level of

(57:02):
standard.
So it sounds like your sister, which is kind ofdelivering as a professional, the quality, it's
a consistent quality of standard that peoplejust trust.
And obviously when you go to another provider,if you've delivered just outstanding service
and just service at a certain standard, theytry to go to someone else because maybe the

(57:28):
cost is cheaper, they realize they lose thatstandard.
So I truly do believe like, it's WarrenBuffett's quote, right?
I mean, money is what you pay, but the value iswhat you get, So I mean, people will pay for
the value, number one, if they have thatrelationship.
Then also if they trust the brand and they justfeel that they'll get that level of quality
that they expect.

(57:48):
And the other thing is need, right?
So my sister in St.
Louis, who runs a pharma company along with herhusband, they see a need to bring manufacturing
back to The US, especially pharmaceuticalingredients and pharma.
And so they're working with the St.
Louis administration and the Missouriadministration to bring this manufacturing of

(58:14):
those ingredients back.
So you see a need in the market and you decideyou are going to fulfill it.
And yeah, so I really think it's excellence.
It's also seeing an opportunity and takingadvantage of it, right?
Sure.

(58:34):
And in addition to that, like I said, stayingthe course, persevering, building relationships
all the time.
I was watching a biopic the other day of one ofthe actresses and even though her mother Judy
Garland, had all these issues, she was able tohave all these relationships that kind of

(59:03):
nurtured her.
And she was able to do, know, to be LizaMinnelli.
And when I watch people go through all thoseissues and everything and still be there
standing and be excellent at whatever they did,it shows us so much that goes into being that
person.
Sure.

(59:24):
And then, you know, just to wrap up the episodehere, you know, I always ask every guest for a
piece of advice.
So what piece of advice do you have forprofessionals, people that are building a fund,
people that are launching a venture?
I say at the end of the day, be nice, be kind,be helpful.

(59:48):
Don't burn any bridges.
Because at the end of the day what goes aroundcomes around and unfortunately today the world
is even smaller than it was before with socialmedia, with everything and with us staying in
the workforce for so long.
Right?
Sure.

(01:00:08):
So it's a very important lesson for people tolearn very young.
And even if you're really angry, just leave theroom to take a deep breath and try not to do
something that you're going to regret laterbecause it's very hard to unwind something once
it's already done.
So be very thoughtful and be happy, Try to behappy.

(01:00:32):
And I'm going to leave you with the lastthought that the sun always rises, from my
favorite book by Hemingway.
You know, it could be cloudy and, it could becloudy for a little bit, but at the end of the
day, the sun will always shine.
Well, you so much, Mary.
This is amazing.
And hey, I continue to enjoy our friendship.

(01:00:54):
And I look up to you as a respected person inthe asset management community.
I know the community does too.
So thanks for all that you do.
Thanks for all that you've done to support meand also the platforms and the communities that
I'm affiliated with.
So thank you so much.
This was an amazing episode and learned somuch.
Thanks, Joe.

(01:01:15):
This has been so much fun and it's been a realpleasure.
Thank you.
Take care.
Everyone else have a great day.