November 3, 2025 • 43 mins
Pioneering technology executive and Leadership Vision advisor Deb Dixson joins Nathan to unpack how leaders move teams from dependence on one person to interdependence—through mission clarity (“we sell lettuce”), Strengths-based roles, and a culture where fast, safe learning is encouraged. Drawing on her 30+ years as a CISO, CIO, and executive coach, Deb shares stories of building resilient teams, empowering others to lead, and offering timeless guidance for leaders navigating change.
Deb also wrote the forward to Unfolded, and we are so grateful for her continued investment in our team.
What we discuss
- From hero to builder: Why great leaders aim to make themselves unnecessary—and how Deb did it.
- Mission clarity: Connecting daily work to the outcome (“we sell lettuce”) so everyone sees how they serve the customer.
- Strengths in action: Placing people where they’re wired to excel; using a common language to handle conflict and change.
- Safe failure → faster learning: Celebrating responsible experiments, shortening feedback loops, and avoiding “death-march” projects.
- Finding the gaps: Spotting unowned work and empowering people to own it (including Deb’s CISO origin story).
Resources & Links
- Leadership Vision Consulting – services, podcast, newsletter: https://www.leadershipvisionconsulting.com
- Unfolded: Lessons in Transformation from an Origami Crane (Brian & Dr. Linda Schubring)
- CliftonStrengths (StrengthsFinder)
- Dale Carnegie training
- Connect with us on social & subscribe to the podcast
🎉 Unfolded is a National Bestseller!
#1 in Business & #5 Overall on USA Today
#17 on Publisher’s Weekly Nonfiction
📘 Grab your copy + get the FREE Reflection Guide!
-
Read the full blog post here!
CONTACT US
- email: connect@leadershipvisionconsulting.com
- Leadership Vision Online
ABOUT
The Leadership Vision Podcast is a weekly show sharing our expertise in discovering, practicing, and implementing a Strengths-based approach to people, teams, and culture. Contact us to talk to us about helping your team understand the power of Strengths.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
I think it's really important to allow people to
(00:02):
fail and to celebrate that.
The faster you can fail and thenfigure it out and move forward,
the faster you can grow.
And the worst thing that canhappen in a team is for
everybody to know that this isnever gonna work out, but no one
has permission to say anything,and they're on a death march
right up to the end.
(00:22):
And it's gonna fail.
Just a question of how fast.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast,
our show helping you buildpositive team culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at Leadership Vision
Consulting.com.
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Freeberg, and today on
(00:50):
the Leadership Vision Podcast, Iam so excited to be joined by
Deb Dixon.
She's a pioneering leader,trusted advisor, and longtime,
longtime friend of LeadershipVision.
Deb has spent more than 30 yearsleading teams at the
intersection of technology,business, and humanity.
She was one of the very firstchief information security
(01:11):
officers in the retail industry,beginning with her
groundbreaking role as BestBuy's first CISO, later serving
as Global CISTO and CIO forDelays America, and eventually
founded DJ Dixon Consulting,where she continues to coach and
advise leaders around the world.
Dev also wrote the beautifulforward to unfolded lessons in
(01:33):
transformation from an origamicrane, Brian and Linda's book,
where she reflected on her ownleadership journey, learning
that building a great team isn'tjust about hiring talented
individuals, but about creatingan environment where each
person's unique strengths areunderstood, appreciated, and
strategically applied.
She credits her work with Lindaand Brian as transformative in
(01:56):
shaping how she builds culturesof trust, collaboration, and
resilience.
Deb continues to serve as anadvisor to Leadership Vision,
much more on that later, butshe's truly so much more than
that.
She's a mentor, she's a teacher,she's a voice of wisdom and
reason sometimes, and someonewho lives out the principles of
growth and transformation thatwe talk about so often here.
(02:18):
In our conversation, we're goingto be talking about how she's
helped teams evolve from beingdependent on a single leader to
thriving together ininterdependence.
We'll explore what it takes tolead through uncertainty, how to
build trust across differences,and what it means to continually
refold ourselves as leaders andunits.
This is the Leadership VisionPodcast.
(02:39):
Enjoy.
SPEAKER_01 (02:45):
I am doing well, Nathan.
I'm thrilled to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
You've given us so much great feedback on the
podcast over the years that it'sfun to have you actually on the
podcast.
And I don't know if you'll giveyourself feedback later or how
the how this will work.
I want to just jump right intothis.
I wanted to talk about yourforeword to the book.
It's beautiful, it's lovely.
But what I want to focus onspecifically is one of the
(03:10):
things that you learn from Brianand Linda is building teams that
could thrive even without you.
And I take that to meanempowering those under you so
that they're not constantlyhaving to go to the boss,
constantly being like, you know,what do we do now, leader?
Help us, help us.
You talk about kind of a shiftin your philosophy like over the
years.
(03:30):
And so I'm curious if you couldgive us a brief picture of Deb
from 28, 29, 30 years ago.
What was that shift like?
Where did it start as maybe theleader who those that you were
leading couldn't do anythingwithout you to the leader where
they could lead without you?
Because so often I think thisidea of leadership is like, I
(03:51):
have to have all the answers.
I have to be the one in charge.
I have to be someone who isconstantly telling other people
what to do.
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
So well, I think like most people, you start out
focusing on what can I do?
You know, it's all gotta looklike I was the hero, I did the
work, I did it.
Because most of us start off asindividual contributors, and
that's how you rise up throughthe ranks, and then you become a
(04:20):
leader.
And oftentimes there's not a lotof good coaching or training.
30 years ago, there certainlywasn't, on how do you make that
switch from being the one that'ssolely responsible for the
outcome to the one that has abunch of folks looking at you
and trying to figure out whatthey should do, how they should
(04:42):
do it, and what the outcomeshould be.
And so I would say 30 years ago,I was far more command and
control isn't quite the rightway to describe uh how I led,
but I I was far more directivethan I am today, or than I that
(05:03):
I evolved through.
And at some point earlier in mycareer, two things made a huge
difference.
I took Dale Carnegie courses,which caused a shift in my
thinking initially from what doI need out of this to making it
(05:25):
about about the person that Iwas working with.
And if I could help you do this,what would that look like?
How can I inspire you that way?
So that was probably the firstshift.
The second one was learningabout strengths, and it just
made so much sense to me thatwith so many psychometrics
(05:50):
focusing on what you're not goodat and trying to make you at
best mediocre at what you're notgood at, it made so much sense
to look at how are people wired,what gives them energy, and how
can I help them get better atthat.
So I actually became quiteskilled at figuring out how to
(06:12):
put people in roles where theycould be successful, how to let
them do things that might not besort of standard job jobs in the
workforce.
But most of that still hinged onme being at the center of this
wheel, and what I realized afterbeing in an organization where I
(06:39):
had the opportunity again tobuild a security team and an IT
team literally from scratch,that while I hired wildly
talented individuals, and thatwas awesome, and I got to know
them and I mentored them and Icoached them and they did great
(07:00):
work.
They did great independent work.
And I didn't realize it until itwas my time to move on to uh
(07:26):
another role and leave thatorganization that I had, in my
opinion, really done adisservice to those individuals
because I hadn't created a teamin the true sense of the word,
where they understood each otheras well as I understood them,
(07:46):
and they trusted and relied oneach other to pick up the slack.
And most of them went on to finddifferent roles after I left,
and that had a huge, huge impacton me because many of them had
relocated their families to workfor me, and so I didn't take
(08:12):
that failure lightly.
They did great work, they wenton to do great, great work
again, but I held that, and thenat the time I went back to Best
Buy for my my third tour tour ofduty, and I vowed I wasn't gonna
(08:33):
do the same thing there.
So every day that I walked inthe building, I was trying to
figure out how I can work myselfout of a job and wasn't quite
sure how I was gonna do it, butI got connected to Brian and
Linda, and they helped give us alanguage that we could use to
(08:56):
better understand ourselves andbetter understand each other,
and ways to better communicate,deal with conflict, deal with
change and uncertainty, and thatmade a huge difference.
And as I look back, I retiredfrom Best Buy in 2018.
(09:16):
Many of the people that werethere working for me and part of
that team are still there.
That's cool.
I had I was true to my word, Istepped back.
SPEAKER_00 (09:33):
You worked yourself out of a job.
SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
I worked myself out of a job.
I stayed, I stayed on, Best Buykept me on for six months.
We had created a new enterpriserisk organization, and they I
stayed for six months coachingand making sure that everything
landed.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:50):
So it was it that was probably one of the
highlights of my career to havebeen able to go from feeling
tremendous sense of guilt abouthaving failed a team to having
created a team that didn't needme.
SPEAKER_00 (10:09):
Right.
Well, what do you think, if ifyou can think back, what do you
think it is about youngerleaders or leaders that are
maybe in their first like realsignificant uh position of
influence?
Is it like a I don't know, likea self-doubt or a
self-confidence thing where likelike if you're uh I don't know,
(10:31):
in your early 30s, let's say,and you're like the leader of
this team, it'd be really hardto have that mindset of I want
to work myself out of a job, Iwant to really empower these
people so they don't need me,because like you don't do what
I'm asking, like what will I do?
Like I'm only you know, so Iguess how do how do we help
young leaders have thatmentality?
(10:51):
Because everything you said isabsolutely correct and true and
like how you build a really goodthriving team.
But for you know, someone who islike, no, I'm the leader, I
ultimately have to be soirreplaceable.
You know what I'm asking?
Like, how do how do we shiftpeople's mindsets?
So talk a little bit about that,because I think that you know,
(11:12):
for people listening would bejust like, well, I can't, you
know, if you're close toretirement, yeah, but not as an
early person, I want to likestill hold everything so
tightly.
So, how do you how do you coachyounger leaders to have that
mentality?
SPEAKER_01 (11:24):
I think it takes a mental shift to decide you don't
need to be the one to takecredit for everything.
So if you can make your if youcan make that mental shift on
how do I empower the people thatI work with that are on my team
(11:45):
to be able to shine, the ironyof that is if you can get
yourself to that place and youcan push your people out in
front to be visible and to besuccessful and give them enough
space that they can fail safelyand learn from it and continue
(12:10):
to grow.
Your team will do far more as ateam like that than they ever
could do with you as the onewho's there, you know, pushing
and leading.
The weird part about it ispeople look at you as a great
(12:32):
leader, even though you're notthe one necessarily that's
always at the front of thestage, you know, leading all the
meetings, but you're the onethat enabled all of these other
folks to be able to rise up.
And that that I think is is theis the biggest difference.
(12:52):
I realized when I had left theorganization that I had really,
as much as I thought I wasempowering all of the people
that worked for me, I wasactually holding them back
because they were limited by mycreativity or my sense of where
I thought they could go and be,and not necessarily by not if
(13:15):
they came, I mean, if they cameto me and said, gee, I really
would like to do X, I wouldcertainly help them.
But other than that, I ended upto be a limiting factor, I
think, in their growth.
SPEAKER_00 (13:26):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Because I was helping them go where I thought
they could go or wanted to go orneeded to go.
And once I unleash them, youknow, amazing things happen.
Um, I also have my background isin education.
I'm a homec education major.
(13:47):
So, like really, I am the leastqualified person on the planet
to have been a CISO.
SPEAKER_00 (13:54):
A CISO.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
So for me, I always lived by the motto that I wanted
to be the dumbest person in theroom.
Not because I thought I wasstupid, but because that meant I
had surrounded myself withpeople who were far smarter than
I could be, because I justhadn't lived that.
So for me, it it actually wasn'tall that difficult because I
(14:19):
didn't have the same strongtechnical background that all of
the people that were on my teamdid.
But what I could do is recognizetalent, grow talent, and ask
really good questions that causethem to look at a problem
differently than they might havedone from a textbook
(14:41):
perspective.
That was my strength.
SPEAKER_00 (14:44):
I'm curious how you would define leadership then,
because if based on what you'resaying, it sounds like the role
of a leader in the Deb Dixondefinition is to get a bunch of
really good people and then justget out of their way.
Like, how would you uh defineleadership or say this is the
role of a leader?
SPEAKER_01 (15:03):
Well, I do think the role of a leader is to be very
clear on what the mission is.
SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
Of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:09):
What's the mission of the company?
How does the team that you leadand everybody on that team fit
into that mission?
Oftentimes, especiallytechnology teams are like six
steps removed, they feel like.
One of the things that I'vealways felt was important is
it's hard to be successful ifyou don't understand what the
(15:33):
end goal is.
And so with my teams, weactually practiced like what is
it that we do?
And at delays, it was a chain ofgrocery retailers, and so
standing in front of the groupone day, I said, We sell
lettuce.
That's what we do.
(15:54):
We sell lettuce.
And every person on my team hadto do some soul searching on how
did they fit into the process ofselling lettuce, getting it to
the store faster, so you know,selling it, keeping it fresh,
whatever.
(16:15):
But by the end of I don't know,maybe six months, if you stopped
an engineer in the hallway andsaid, What did you what do you
do?
They would say, We sell lettuce.
And this is how what I do fitsinto that process.
So I think a role, a leader hasto be clear on the why that they
(16:40):
and the team are there.
I think they have to be good atadapting to change and
uncertainty, particularly inthis world that we live in
today.
And and helping peopleunderstand um that they have to
evolve and change.
(17:00):
Um, ironically, unfolded couldnot have come at a at a more
appropriate time.
As we're all we're allchallenged to um fold and and
unfold and refold.
SPEAKER_00 (17:12):
It's so true.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
Um, I think a leader has to be honest with their
team, giving feedback that is uhconstructive and will help
somebody grow is critical.
And you know, to a certainextent, getting out of their way
(17:34):
to let them try new things,listening to them, understanding
who they are, letting them try,letting them fail safely, they
have to know you have your back,have their back.
But if you can do those thingsand then get out of the way and
listen to their great ideas, youknow, people on the ground that
(17:56):
are doing it every day, theyunderstand oftentimes better
than leaders where the problemsare, what's happening, you know,
where things could change orshould change.
SPEAKER_00 (18:10):
And yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
You know, we oftentimes don't listen.
SPEAKER_00 (18:14):
Yeah.
So so many parallels there toparenting that I that I won't
get into.
But I want I want to go back,not maybe not back, but just you
brought up strengths, and thatwas kind of like the big aha.
I'm curious to learn if you hadan aha moment about yourself
personally.
Back um when I was doing a lotmore teaching and speaking on
(18:35):
strengths, I would always say myaha with strengths came when I
learned that ideation was astrength and not something that
needed to be medicated.
Because for so much of my life,I was like, ooh, idea, idea,
idea, idea.
And then it was like, actually,this is a strength.
Here's how you harnessed it.
Here's when it's perhaps not astrength.
I'm curious if in the processworking with Brian and Linda, if
you had any moments like thatwhere you're just like, oh my
(18:58):
goodness, this they're tellingme this thing that I've been
doing that I thought was maybenot the best is actually like
there's a name for it.
Like, did you have any momentslike that with your experience
just with strengths?
SPEAKER_01 (19:08):
Well, probably one of the it's funny now, but I
have um strategic maximizer,achiever, learner, and relator
are my top five.
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
Okay, yep.
SPEAKER_01 (19:21):
And early, early on when I was learning about
strengths, that's why actuallywas a strength-based
organization.
It was part of your onboarding.
And I had a strengths coach whotold me that the only thing that
was it literally his quote theonly thing that is keeping you
(19:43):
from eating your young is thefact that you have the strength
of learning and relator in inthe middle.
Um, because otherwise it's likewe're going here now, this is
the best way to do it.
We've got to get it done.
SPEAKER_00 (19:57):
Yep, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:58):
And I was I actually I mean, he wasn't necessarily
far off, but that aha momentabout ooh, is that really how
I'm coming off?
And I'm over-indexing.
I was early in my career, wantedto make things happen and be
(20:20):
noticed.
It caused me to rethink aboutlearner and relater and how to
play those up uh in terms of thepeople that I needed to serve as
a leader and how I needed tounder better understand them.
(20:41):
And so I softened a lot of thelike hard driving maximizer.
SPEAKER_00 (20:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (20:48):
Um, in order to actually be human.
SPEAKER_00 (20:52):
How so uh we're gonna get personal therapy
session really quick.
How so I also have maximizer,and I feel like that like
sometimes that that edge uh withmy kids, with people at the
school, sometimes with Brian andLinda, don't tell them.
Uh I volunteered the school, butlike that, that no, this has to
be the best, this has to bethis.
Like, how did you learn to sortof what'd you say, soften that
(21:13):
edge a little bit?
Because sometimes in my mind,I'm like, I'm pushing for the
best.
And sometimes other people arelike, yeah, but we don't need
this to be maximized.
My mouth was up, my wife isalways telling me that.
How did you personally kind ofsoften that edge a little bit?
I I would love some tips.
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
I do think that um the Carnegie training was
helpful when I went and steppedback to look at look at
everything through somebodyelse's eyes.
And that had um such an impact.
So I would do a lot of what isthe outcome I want, what is the
(21:53):
maximized outcome I want to havehere?
And who's the people in the roomthat I need to make this happen?
What what will their take be?
And you know, so I'd sort ofplay this out in my in my head,
and then I'm good at askingquestions, and so you know, we'd
(22:17):
be in a meeting and I would justsay, Well, I wonder if you know
what would happen if we didthis, or how do you think that
this could play itself out?
And one of the consultants thatI worked with when we were
(22:37):
trying to build the firstsecurity team at Best Buy from
scratch would said to me, Iwatched you go into this room,
and there was no way people weregoing to get to the spot you
needed them to be.
And you never said where youwanted them to go, but all of a
(23:02):
sudden it was somebody else'sidea, and here we are.
And so he always called it myJedi mind tricks.
SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
Oh, yeah.
That's in my notes to talk toyou about it.
Yeah, the Jedi.
SPEAKER_01 (23:14):
That's where Brian and Linda, you know, I love me
the Jedi because I these thesethese are not the droids you are
looking for.
Yes, exactly.
That's right.
But it was almost frighteningwhen you start to do stuff that
you look at things from the lensof the people that you're
(23:35):
working with, yeah, and ask themquestions to see where they can
end up.
Now, yeah, like it not sort ofblack magic, but I think you get
you yeah, it's Jedi magic.
But you get, I think you get toa better spot.
It's not always the spot Ithought we should be at because
(23:56):
I didn't necessarily have allthe information, but people
learn that they could share andlearn that they could make an
impact.
And you know, if there wassomething that I felt really
strongly about that maybe theywere opposed to, they were
oftentimes far more willing tosay, if she's this, you know,
(24:18):
headstrong on this is where wehave to go, there must be a
reason.
So, how can we do that in youknow the best way possible?
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
Yeah.
That makes sense.
It unfortunately doesn't soundas easy as I was hoping for, but
uh I appreciate that.
I I want to talk a little bitnow with strengths just in
teams.
And I don't know, just given theamount of time we have left, if
we could possibly summarizethis.
But I I'm I'm let's see, how doI ask this question?
I'm gonna combine a couple herefrom our from our notes.
(24:49):
But as you as you worked withBrian and Linda, as you were
introduced and understood thephilosophy of strengths, how did
you then incorporate that intoall like what we were talking
about earlier with gettingpeople to know and trust and
understand each other?
And specifically what I'mcurious about is kind of in that
(25:10):
retail space where in the lastmany years it's just kind of
been turned on its head and likeall of that uh stuff.
I mean, even back when you wereworking there.
So, how did you, I guess myquestion in this is how did you
help people to understand theirstrengths, understand the
strengths of the person acrossthe cubicle from them or office
or whatever, so that when youknow the proverbial stuff hit
(25:34):
the fan, it just didn't devolveinto chaos, but it was like,
okay, you're good at that,you're good at that, I'm good at
that, we're gonna rallytogether.
Like, what did that actuallylook like?
And is there any sort oftakeaways maybe we can give to
our listeners?
That's like a lot of questions Ijust try to synthesize into one,
but does that make sense?
Is that answerable?
SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
I don't know if it's answerable, but I'll give it a
shot.
I mean, one of one of the thingsthat Brian and Linda do better
than anybody I've seen is tohelp people understand each
other and understand how theyreact in certain ways.
Okay, and by helping a teamreally know the other members of
(26:25):
the team, build a trust, and inthat trust, you can have the
tough conversations in a waythat isn't degrading or
demoralizing.
It just helps have the rightconversation so that you can get
to the outcome that you need.
And as a leader, knowing howeach of my team members was
(26:53):
wired and who might be better atcertain things than others,
regardless of what their rolewas, giving people opportunities
to shine in the areas wherethey're they're just wired to be
better.
Folks saw that.
They saw everybody having anopportunity.
(27:14):
And, you know, during the toughtimes, it was much easier for
them to also say, Let me takethis part because I can, you
know, it's easy for me to dothis, it's harder for me to do
that.
You're really good at it, andyou get that sort of, I don't
(27:35):
know, cross-training is not theright word, but you you have the
trust among the folks that theyhave each other's, they have
each other's back.
SPEAKER_00 (27:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:43):
And even if it's not my job, but you're slammed, um,
which often happens in asecurity incident, somebody else
can come behind and and helpout.
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
So I'm thinking about the back to the book in
their chapter on play, and I'mwondering how much of your role
as a leader is helping teams toplay?
And not in a throw a ballaround, but just like all of
these little things that we'redoing, like these are all
opportunities to learn and grow.
And you made a mistake.
All right, we're gonna adjustfor the next time.
(28:17):
How, how did in your career wereyou able to do that?
And maybe, you know, obviouslythe book wasn't out, so you
didn't have necessary thatlanguage, but able to do that
and really help leaders, Iguess, grow and learn through
experience, through mistakes,through knowing, like, all
right, you really messed uphere.
I'm not gonna fire you, buthere's how we're gonna change
for next time.
Because I think too often, youknow, maybe leaders or
(28:41):
organizations are likeeverything always has to be
perfect.
And if you make a mistake,you're out, versus like, what
can we learn for next time?
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
It's interesting.
One of the things that um I'vemade a habit of doing throughout
my career is to look for thegaps.
So in the work that we're doing,where are there areas that
nobody's paying attention to?
And at some point someone willpay attention to, and then it
(29:09):
will be behind the eight ball.
It actually is how I got to bethe first CISO at Best Buy.
At that time, a million yearsago, security was focused either
on making sure the data centerwas locked, or from a IT
(29:29):
perspective, the credit cardcompanies were paying retailers
to put security measures intotheir software at point of sale.
I was responsible for that POSteam, and I kept thinking at
some point they're gonna stoppaying us to do this.
And if something bad happens,it's not gonna turn out well.
(29:52):
And Best Buy was a hugeorganization focused on the
customer, and so that would, tome, make it look like we weren't
paying attention to protectingour customers' data.
I started to work on thatproposal for a new a new job and
a role and a team, and this iswhat they would do.
And so as an example, I thoughtit was a big gap.
(30:18):
Um and I surrounded myself withthe smartest people I could find
who could advise me on in retailwhat would a CISO do and put
this proposal together.
So that was an example oflooking for a gap.
I pitched it initially my bosslaughed at it.
(30:39):
But then you know timing iseverything the TJ Maxx breach
was announced and the boardasked him who is responsible for
information security.
And he said, well as a matter offact I have this great idea.
And here we are.
But in general that's what Icall I encourage my teams to
(31:01):
look at.
Like in the stuff that we'redoing day to day, where are the
gaps?
Nobody's doing them, nobody cansay you're doing it right or
wrong.
So those are great opportunitiesfor people to try something to
grow, allowing people to shadowsomebody else to do sort of job
sharing where they get a chanceto see what it might look like
(31:25):
to do a role that they think isglamorous or a lot more fun than
what they're doing, giving themthose opportunities and then you
know being conscious of wherepeople's skill levels are.
I think it's really important toallow people to fail and to
celebrate that.
The faster you can fail and thenfigure it out and move forward
(31:49):
the faster you can grow.
And the worst thing that canhappen in a team is for
everybody to know that this isnever going to work out but no
one has permission to sayanything and they're on a death
march right up to the end.
And it's gonna fail just aquestion of how fast.
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
Right exactly you're like we have we just have to do
this and let it fail and thenwhat do we learn for it?
Because you don't know until youknow it it you know it's
interesting you talk about thegaps.
That's what you're doing on ourteam it seems like like what are
the gaps like leadership visionneeds help with you know with
the book release with all thisstuff you wrote uh in the like
(32:30):
the little document you haveI've made a career out of being
better than nothing and all youhave and I thought that was such
a fun quote d do you have moreto say about that because I I'm
I'm curious how if that's playedout in other ways because we're
trying to work yourself out of ajob, trying to create these new
roles, you know, whereleadership or the team can kind
(32:51):
of flourish without you I'mcurious what what we can learn
from that because it again itjust sort of seems
counterintuitive to a lot of thepeople that we talk to.
SPEAKER_01 (33:01):
So well I think it's giving yourself permission to
dream, to try to play to playall the chapters.
And for me it falls so closelyinto looking for a gap.
You know so if if there'ssomething that is clearly not
being taken care of then I'm andI'm willing to try it.
(33:25):
I'm better than nothing.
I'm all you've got I'm smartenough to figure out how do I
how do I do things um and it hasit has served me well because I
think so often we limitourselves to the title that we
(33:45):
have the role that we have andtry to just push forward on
that.
And I think work now life now ismore like a jungle gym than a
ladder and so to be able to goI'm gonna do this thing maybe
(34:06):
it's a you know maybe I'm notgonna get paid for it but I'm
gonna try to see if I can makesome headway here and people
notice they notice when you'retaking the initiative they
notice when you're doingsomething and you know it gives
your you give yourself in thatrole sort of permission to not
(34:28):
be perfect because there'snobody doing it.
I mean I remember asking theconsultant that talked about my
Jedi mind tricks like what doreal companies do when this
happens we were making we weremaking it up as we were going
along um and I think we did apretty good job.
SPEAKER_00 (34:53):
It it seems like everybody is like the more that
I learn about you know bigcompanies or read biographies of
famous leaders of companieseveryone's kind of making it up
as as they go.
They they do the best they canwith the information that they
have and if it's successful thenthat sort of becomes a template
for someone else to try and thenthat maybe gets gets tweaked or
(35:15):
or changed along the way.
I'm I'm I want to talk a littlebit here as we're sort of
closing out but just about thementorship like the the people
that you work with that youmentor that you coach that you
you know whatever word you wantto use for that I'm I'm curious
in 2025, October of 2025 as theworld has changed so much from
(35:35):
when you retired and even itfeels like every few months
different AI technologies comingout or different you know global
policies that pop up likeeverything is constantly
changing.
I'm curious if there's anythemes or messages or words of
encouragement that you know youhave shared over the years that
(35:56):
are still timeless, that arestill like this is what I would
tell a 25 year old you knowrelatively recent college grad.
This is what I would tell a 40something you know mid-career
professional this is what Iwould tell someone that's
looking at retirement in acouple of years.
When it comes to leadership whenit comes to even some of the
themes of the book what are someof those consistent messages
(36:18):
that over your career you stillshare with people you still say
do this you still say don't dothat.
I'm kind of looking for thoseCarnegie sort of lessons the
Deb, the Deb Dixon sort oflessons that are just timeless
no matter what crazy chaos isgoing on in the world.
SPEAKER_01 (36:35):
Do you have any of those kind of at the top of your
head well I think one of thethings that people often lose
sight of is people work forpeople.
They don't work for companiesand you know they will leave
their leaders so much hinges Ithink on the relationships that
(36:55):
you're able to form as a leaderand the understanding that you
have of the you know the teamthat you have so I think that's
one of the things to remember isat the end of the day people
work for people.
I think probably the biggerthing that no matter where you
are in your career becausethere's so so many people who
(37:19):
are you know thought they weregoing to be somewhere for a long
time and you know their job'sbeen eliminated or it's you know
there's something that's changeddramatically and I think part of
what I loved about the book somuch is give yourself and all of
(37:40):
the people around you permissionto dream.
We are our own worst enemiesbecause we're afraid to fail so
we don't try.
If you never try then you'renever you know you're never
gonna know and so you know partof what I encourage everybody
(38:01):
that I work with is what do youreally want what what do you
wake up in the morning and whatwould make you say God I can't
wait to get out of bed um and Ihave people oftentimes create a
list of like the components ofwhat they do not you know not
(38:23):
like I'm a CFO but like what arethe components of your job that
you really love what are thecomponents that you really hate
if you go back through thehistory of your work history or
life in general what are thethings that you love to do and
maybe out of that there's someaha moment of wow I'm I'm good
(38:49):
at this but I don't enjoy it.
And I think there's way too manypeople who are good at something
and that success is such ashackle to keep them from trying
something that would really makethem happy.
To me that's such a huge messageand theme of the book is giving
(39:12):
yourself and others permissionto dream and to to be seen and
to to try.
SPEAKER_00 (39:21):
I love that one of my favorite uh parts of your
foreword I highlighted here youcan't hear that what might be
possible if we gave ourselvespermission to never stop growing
and I I love that becausesometimes I think that we're
like oh this is who I am andthis is all that I am if I could
(39:41):
summarize our entireconversation here like you're
you're saying no that's nottrue.
Like keep growing keep changingfind that gap find something uh
you know to make yourself betterthan nothing yet all all that
you have and you know obviouslythat's that's the theme of the
book.
So Deb, is there any other finalthoughts that you have or things
that um you're hoping we talkedabout we would talk about that
(40:04):
we didn't I want to I want togive you the last word here.
Oh or we'll edit all this out ifyou don't have one.
SPEAKER_01 (40:12):
Well I actually do have one of my favorite quotes
from the book.
Ooh okay that I would love toend with the world needs people
and leaders with the courage todream new dreams big enough to
reach the world and brightenough to heal it so good.
SPEAKER_00 (40:31):
She's got it on a note card.
I do we did we got to make thatinto a t-shirt because I think
that's that's what it's allabout right yeah I love it.
It is well Deb, thank you somuch I really appreciate you uh
taking the time I I maybe we'llhave to do a follow-up because I
have a lot more questions foryou about all kinds of stuff.
So thank you.
(40:52):
You're welcome thank you forhaving me and thank you for
listening to the LeadershipVision Podcast our show helping
you build positive team culture.
You know we really can'toverstate just the impact and
influence that Deb has had onour team especially during uh
the unfolded process of gettingthis book published she has been
(41:16):
just a fountain of wisdom andknowledge and just helping us
think through all of the thingsthat we weren't thinking about.
And as she said in the interviewthere you know becoming
absolutely indispensable hasbeen truly her superpower.
So Deb, thank you so much fortaking the time to chat we just
barely even cracked the surfaceof your career and history and
(41:40):
all of the wisdom uh that youhave to offer so I don't know
listeners maybe we'll have herback for a second third or
fourth time but thank you somuch for listening to Leadership
Vision Podcast, our show helpingyou build positive team culture
and if you found value from thisepisode or any of our other
resources we would love it ifyou could follow us on social
media, review us wherever youget your podcast join our free
(42:04):
email newsletter and of courseshare this with someone that you
think could benefit from thismaterial.
You can click the link in theshow notes for more information
or visit us on the web atleadershipvision consulting dot
com.
My name is Nathan Freeberg andon behalf of our entire team
thanks for listening
I think it's really important to allow people to
(00:02):
fail and to celebrate that.
The faster you can fail and thenfigure it out and move forward,
the faster you can grow.
And the worst thing that canhappen in a team is for
everybody to know that this isnever gonna work out, but no one
has permission to say anything,and they're on a death march
right up to the end.
(00:22):
And it's gonna fail.
Just a question of how fast.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
You are listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast,
our show helping you buildpositive team culture.
Our consulting firm has beendoing this work for the past 25
years so that leaders arementally engaged and emotionally
healthy.
To learn more about our work,you can click the link in the
show notes or visit us on theweb at Leadership Vision
Consulting.com.
Hello everyone, my name isNathan Freeberg, and today on
(00:50):
the Leadership Vision Podcast, Iam so excited to be joined by
Deb Dixon.
She's a pioneering leader,trusted advisor, and longtime,
longtime friend of LeadershipVision.
Deb has spent more than 30 yearsleading teams at the
intersection of technology,business, and humanity.
She was one of the very firstchief information security
(01:11):
officers in the retail industry,beginning with her
groundbreaking role as BestBuy's first CISO, later serving
as Global CISTO and CIO forDelays America, and eventually
founded DJ Dixon Consulting,where she continues to coach and
advise leaders around the world.
Dev also wrote the beautifulforward to unfolded lessons in
(01:33):
transformation from an origamicrane, Brian and Linda's book,
where she reflected on her ownleadership journey, learning
that building a great team isn'tjust about hiring talented
individuals, but about creatingan environment where each
person's unique strengths areunderstood, appreciated, and
strategically applied.
She credits her work with Lindaand Brian as transformative in
(01:56):
shaping how she builds culturesof trust, collaboration, and
resilience.
Deb continues to serve as anadvisor to Leadership Vision,
much more on that later, butshe's truly so much more than
that.
She's a mentor, she's a teacher,she's a voice of wisdom and
reason sometimes, and someonewho lives out the principles of
growth and transformation thatwe talk about so often here.
(02:18):
In our conversation, we're goingto be talking about how she's
helped teams evolve from beingdependent on a single leader to
thriving together ininterdependence.
We'll explore what it takes tolead through uncertainty, how to
build trust across differences,and what it means to continually
refold ourselves as leaders andunits.
This is the Leadership VisionPodcast.
(02:39):
Enjoy.
SPEAKER_01 (02:45):
I am doing well, Nathan.
I'm thrilled to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
You've given us so much great feedback on the
podcast over the years that it'sfun to have you actually on the
podcast.
And I don't know if you'll giveyourself feedback later or how
the how this will work.
I want to just jump right intothis.
I wanted to talk about yourforeword to the book.
It's beautiful, it's lovely.
But what I want to focus onspecifically is one of the
(03:10):
things that you learn from Brianand Linda is building teams that
could thrive even without you.
And I take that to meanempowering those under you so
that they're not constantlyhaving to go to the boss,
constantly being like, you know,what do we do now, leader?
Help us, help us.
You talk about kind of a shiftin your philosophy like over the
years.
(03:30):
And so I'm curious if you couldgive us a brief picture of Deb
from 28, 29, 30 years ago.
What was that shift like?
Where did it start as maybe theleader who those that you were
leading couldn't do anythingwithout you to the leader where
they could lead without you?
Because so often I think thisidea of leadership is like, I
(03:51):
have to have all the answers.
I have to be the one in charge.
I have to be someone who isconstantly telling other people
what to do.
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
So well, I think like most people, you start out
focusing on what can I do?
You know, it's all gotta looklike I was the hero, I did the
work, I did it.
Because most of us start off asindividual contributors, and
that's how you rise up throughthe ranks, and then you become a
(04:20):
leader.
And oftentimes there's not a lotof good coaching or training.
30 years ago, there certainlywasn't, on how do you make that
switch from being the one that'ssolely responsible for the
outcome to the one that has abunch of folks looking at you
and trying to figure out whatthey should do, how they should
(04:42):
do it, and what the outcomeshould be.
And so I would say 30 years ago,I was far more command and
control isn't quite the rightway to describe uh how I led,
but I I was far more directivethan I am today, or than I that
(05:03):
I evolved through.
And at some point earlier in mycareer, two things made a huge
difference.
I took Dale Carnegie courses,which caused a shift in my
thinking initially from what doI need out of this to making it
(05:25):
about about the person that Iwas working with.
And if I could help you do this,what would that look like?
How can I inspire you that way?
So that was probably the firstshift.
The second one was learningabout strengths, and it just
made so much sense to me thatwith so many psychometrics
(05:50):
focusing on what you're not goodat and trying to make you at
best mediocre at what you're notgood at, it made so much sense
to look at how are people wired,what gives them energy, and how
can I help them get better atthat.
So I actually became quiteskilled at figuring out how to
(06:12):
put people in roles where theycould be successful, how to let
them do things that might not besort of standard job jobs in the
workforce.
But most of that still hinged onme being at the center of this
wheel, and what I realized afterbeing in an organization where I
(06:39):
had the opportunity again tobuild a security team and an IT
team literally from scratch,that while I hired wildly
talented individuals, and thatwas awesome, and I got to know
them and I mentored them and Icoached them and they did great
(07:00):
work.
They did great independent work.
And I didn't realize it until itwas my time to move on to uh
(07:26):
another role and leave thatorganization that I had, in my
opinion, really done adisservice to those individuals
because I hadn't created a teamin the true sense of the word,
where they understood each otheras well as I understood them,
(07:46):
and they trusted and relied oneach other to pick up the slack.
And most of them went on to finddifferent roles after I left,
and that had a huge, huge impacton me because many of them had
relocated their families to workfor me, and so I didn't take
(08:12):
that failure lightly.
They did great work, they wenton to do great, great work
again, but I held that, and thenat the time I went back to Best
Buy for my my third tour tour ofduty, and I vowed I wasn't gonna
(08:33):
do the same thing there.
So every day that I walked inthe building, I was trying to
figure out how I can work myselfout of a job and wasn't quite
sure how I was gonna do it, butI got connected to Brian and
Linda, and they helped give us alanguage that we could use to
(08:56):
better understand ourselves andbetter understand each other,
and ways to better communicate,deal with conflict, deal with
change and uncertainty, and thatmade a huge difference.
And as I look back, I retiredfrom Best Buy in 2018.
(09:16):
Many of the people that werethere working for me and part of
that team are still there.
That's cool.
I had I was true to my word, Istepped back.
SPEAKER_00 (09:33):
You worked yourself out of a job.
SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
I worked myself out of a job.
I stayed, I stayed on, Best Buykept me on for six months.
We had created a new enterpriserisk organization, and they I
stayed for six months coachingand making sure that everything
landed.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:50):
So it was it that was probably one of the
highlights of my career to havebeen able to go from feeling
tremendous sense of guilt abouthaving failed a team to having
created a team that didn't needme.
SPEAKER_00 (10:09):
Right.
Well, what do you think, if ifyou can think back, what do you
think it is about youngerleaders or leaders that are
maybe in their first like realsignificant uh position of
influence?
Is it like a I don't know, likea self-doubt or a
self-confidence thing where likelike if you're uh I don't know,
(10:31):
in your early 30s, let's say,and you're like the leader of
this team, it'd be really hardto have that mindset of I want
to work myself out of a job, Iwant to really empower these
people so they don't need me,because like you don't do what
I'm asking, like what will I do?
Like I'm only you know, so Iguess how do how do we help
young leaders have thatmentality?
(10:51):
Because everything you said isabsolutely correct and true and
like how you build a really goodthriving team.
But for you know, someone who islike, no, I'm the leader, I
ultimately have to be soirreplaceable.
You know what I'm asking?
Like, how do how do we shiftpeople's mindsets?
So talk a little bit about that,because I think that you know,
(11:12):
for people listening would bejust like, well, I can't, you
know, if you're close toretirement, yeah, but not as an
early person, I want to likestill hold everything so
tightly.
So, how do you how do you coachyounger leaders to have that
mentality?
SPEAKER_01 (11:24):
I think it takes a mental shift to decide you don't
need to be the one to takecredit for everything.
So if you can make your if youcan make that mental shift on
how do I empower the people thatI work with that are on my team
(11:45):
to be able to shine, the ironyof that is if you can get
yourself to that place and youcan push your people out in
front to be visible and to besuccessful and give them enough
space that they can fail safelyand learn from it and continue
(12:10):
to grow.
Your team will do far more as ateam like that than they ever
could do with you as the onewho's there, you know, pushing
and leading.
The weird part about it ispeople look at you as a great
(12:32):
leader, even though you're notthe one necessarily that's
always at the front of thestage, you know, leading all the
meetings, but you're the onethat enabled all of these other
folks to be able to rise up.
And that that I think is is theis the biggest difference.
(12:52):
I realized when I had left theorganization that I had really,
as much as I thought I wasempowering all of the people
that worked for me, I wasactually holding them back
because they were limited by mycreativity or my sense of where
I thought they could go and be,and not necessarily by not if
(13:15):
they came, I mean, if they cameto me and said, gee, I really
would like to do X, I wouldcertainly help them.
But other than that, I ended upto be a limiting factor, I
think, in their growth.
SPEAKER_00 (13:26):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Because I was helping them go where I thought
they could go or wanted to go orneeded to go.
And once I unleash them, youknow, amazing things happen.
Um, I also have my background isin education.
I'm a homec education major.
(13:47):
So, like really, I am the leastqualified person on the planet
to have been a CISO.
SPEAKER_00 (13:54):
A CISO.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
So for me, I always lived by the motto that I wanted
to be the dumbest person in theroom.
Not because I thought I wasstupid, but because that meant I
had surrounded myself withpeople who were far smarter than
I could be, because I justhadn't lived that.
So for me, it it actually wasn'tall that difficult because I
(14:19):
didn't have the same strongtechnical background that all of
the people that were on my teamdid.
But what I could do is recognizetalent, grow talent, and ask
really good questions that causethem to look at a problem
differently than they might havedone from a textbook
(14:41):
perspective.
That was my strength.
SPEAKER_00 (14:44):
I'm curious how you would define leadership then,
because if based on what you'resaying, it sounds like the role
of a leader in the Deb Dixondefinition is to get a bunch of
really good people and then justget out of their way.
Like, how would you uh defineleadership or say this is the
role of a leader?
SPEAKER_01 (15:03):
Well, I do think the role of a leader is to be very
clear on what the mission is.
SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
Of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:09):
What's the mission of the company?
How does the team that you leadand everybody on that team fit
into that mission?
Oftentimes, especiallytechnology teams are like six
steps removed, they feel like.
One of the things that I'vealways felt was important is
it's hard to be successful ifyou don't understand what the
(15:33):
end goal is.
And so with my teams, weactually practiced like what is
it that we do?
And at delays, it was a chain ofgrocery retailers, and so
standing in front of the groupone day, I said, We sell
lettuce.
That's what we do.
(15:54):
We sell lettuce.
And every person on my team hadto do some soul searching on how
did they fit into the process ofselling lettuce, getting it to
the store faster, so you know,selling it, keeping it fresh,
whatever.
(16:15):
But by the end of I don't know,maybe six months, if you stopped
an engineer in the hallway andsaid, What did you what do you
do?
They would say, We sell lettuce.
And this is how what I do fitsinto that process.
So I think a role, a leader hasto be clear on the why that they
(16:40):
and the team are there.
I think they have to be good atadapting to change and
uncertainty, particularly inthis world that we live in
today.
And and helping peopleunderstand um that they have to
evolve and change.
(17:00):
Um, ironically, unfolded couldnot have come at a at a more
appropriate time.
As we're all we're allchallenged to um fold and and
unfold and refold.
SPEAKER_00 (17:12):
It's so true.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
Um, I think a leader has to be honest with their
team, giving feedback that is uhconstructive and will help
somebody grow is critical.
And you know, to a certainextent, getting out of their way
(17:34):
to let them try new things,listening to them, understanding
who they are, letting them try,letting them fail safely, they
have to know you have your back,have their back.
But if you can do those thingsand then get out of the way and
listen to their great ideas, youknow, people on the ground that
(17:56):
are doing it every day, theyunderstand oftentimes better
than leaders where the problemsare, what's happening, you know,
where things could change orshould change.
SPEAKER_00 (18:10):
And yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
You know, we oftentimes don't listen.
SPEAKER_00 (18:14):
Yeah.
So so many parallels there toparenting that I that I won't
get into.
But I want I want to go back,not maybe not back, but just you
brought up strengths, and thatwas kind of like the big aha.
I'm curious to learn if you hadan aha moment about yourself
personally.
Back um when I was doing a lotmore teaching and speaking on
(18:35):
strengths, I would always say myaha with strengths came when I
learned that ideation was astrength and not something that
needed to be medicated.
Because for so much of my life,I was like, ooh, idea, idea,
idea, idea.
And then it was like, actually,this is a strength.
Here's how you harnessed it.
Here's when it's perhaps not astrength.
I'm curious if in the processworking with Brian and Linda, if
you had any moments like thatwhere you're just like, oh my
(18:58):
goodness, this they're tellingme this thing that I've been
doing that I thought was maybenot the best is actually like
there's a name for it.
Like, did you have any momentslike that with your experience
just with strengths?
SPEAKER_01 (19:08):
Well, probably one of the it's funny now, but I
have um strategic maximizer,achiever, learner, and relator
are my top five.
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
Okay, yep.
SPEAKER_01 (19:21):
And early, early on when I was learning about
strengths, that's why actuallywas a strength-based
organization.
It was part of your onboarding.
And I had a strengths coach whotold me that the only thing that
was it literally his quote theonly thing that is keeping you
(19:43):
from eating your young is thefact that you have the strength
of learning and relator in inthe middle.
Um, because otherwise it's likewe're going here now, this is
the best way to do it.
We've got to get it done.
SPEAKER_00 (19:57):
Yep, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:58):
And I was I actually I mean, he wasn't necessarily
far off, but that aha momentabout ooh, is that really how
I'm coming off?
And I'm over-indexing.
I was early in my career, wantedto make things happen and be
(20:20):
noticed.
It caused me to rethink aboutlearner and relater and how to
play those up uh in terms of thepeople that I needed to serve as
a leader and how I needed tounder better understand them.
(20:41):
And so I softened a lot of thelike hard driving maximizer.
SPEAKER_00 (20:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (20:48):
Um, in order to actually be human.
SPEAKER_00 (20:52):
How so uh we're gonna get personal therapy
session really quick.
How so I also have maximizer,and I feel like that like
sometimes that that edge uh withmy kids, with people at the
school, sometimes with Brian andLinda, don't tell them.
Uh I volunteered the school, butlike that, that no, this has to
be the best, this has to bethis.
Like, how did you learn to sortof what'd you say, soften that
(21:13):
edge a little bit?
Because sometimes in my mind,I'm like, I'm pushing for the
best.
And sometimes other people arelike, yeah, but we don't need
this to be maximized.
My mouth was up, my wife isalways telling me that.
How did you personally kind ofsoften that edge a little bit?
I I would love some tips.
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
I do think that um the Carnegie training was
helpful when I went and steppedback to look at look at
everything through somebodyelse's eyes.
And that had um such an impact.
So I would do a lot of what isthe outcome I want, what is the
(21:53):
maximized outcome I want to havehere?
And who's the people in the roomthat I need to make this happen?
What what will their take be?
And you know, so I'd sort ofplay this out in my in my head,
and then I'm good at askingquestions, and so you know, we'd
(22:17):
be in a meeting and I would justsay, Well, I wonder if you know
what would happen if we didthis, or how do you think that
this could play itself out?
And one of the consultants thatI worked with when we were
(22:37):
trying to build the firstsecurity team at Best Buy from
scratch would said to me, Iwatched you go into this room,
and there was no way people weregoing to get to the spot you
needed them to be.
And you never said where youwanted them to go, but all of a
(23:02):
sudden it was somebody else'sidea, and here we are.
And so he always called it myJedi mind tricks.
SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
Oh, yeah.
That's in my notes to talk toyou about it.
Yeah, the Jedi.
SPEAKER_01 (23:14):
That's where Brian and Linda, you know, I love me
the Jedi because I these thesethese are not the droids you are
looking for.
Yes, exactly.
That's right.
But it was almost frighteningwhen you start to do stuff that
you look at things from the lensof the people that you're
(23:35):
working with, yeah, and ask themquestions to see where they can
end up.
Now, yeah, like it not sort ofblack magic, but I think you get
you yeah, it's Jedi magic.
But you get, I think you get toa better spot.
It's not always the spot Ithought we should be at because
(23:56):
I didn't necessarily have allthe information, but people
learn that they could share andlearn that they could make an
impact.
And you know, if there wassomething that I felt really
strongly about that maybe theywere opposed to, they were
oftentimes far more willing tosay, if she's this, you know,
(24:18):
headstrong on this is where wehave to go, there must be a
reason.
So, how can we do that in youknow the best way possible?
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
Yeah.
That makes sense.
It unfortunately doesn't soundas easy as I was hoping for, but
uh I appreciate that.
I I want to talk a little bitnow with strengths just in
teams.
And I don't know, just given theamount of time we have left, if
we could possibly summarizethis.
But I I'm I'm let's see, how doI ask this question?
I'm gonna combine a couple herefrom our from our notes.
(24:49):
But as you as you worked withBrian and Linda, as you were
introduced and understood thephilosophy of strengths, how did
you then incorporate that intoall like what we were talking
about earlier with gettingpeople to know and trust and
understand each other?
And specifically what I'mcurious about is kind of in that
(25:10):
retail space where in the lastmany years it's just kind of
been turned on its head and likeall of that uh stuff.
I mean, even back when you wereworking there.
So, how did you, I guess myquestion in this is how did you
help people to understand theirstrengths, understand the
strengths of the person acrossthe cubicle from them or office
or whatever, so that when youknow the proverbial stuff hit
(25:34):
the fan, it just didn't devolveinto chaos, but it was like,
okay, you're good at that,you're good at that, I'm good at
that, we're gonna rallytogether.
Like, what did that actuallylook like?
And is there any sort oftakeaways maybe we can give to
our listeners?
That's like a lot of questions Ijust try to synthesize into one,
but does that make sense?
Is that answerable?
SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
I don't know if it's answerable, but I'll give it a
shot.
I mean, one of one of the thingsthat Brian and Linda do better
than anybody I've seen is tohelp people understand each
other and understand how theyreact in certain ways.
Okay, and by helping a teamreally know the other members of
(26:25):
the team, build a trust, and inthat trust, you can have the
tough conversations in a waythat isn't degrading or
demoralizing.
It just helps have the rightconversation so that you can get
to the outcome that you need.
And as a leader, knowing howeach of my team members was
(26:53):
wired and who might be better atcertain things than others,
regardless of what their rolewas, giving people opportunities
to shine in the areas wherethey're they're just wired to be
better.
Folks saw that.
They saw everybody having anopportunity.
(27:14):
And, you know, during the toughtimes, it was much easier for
them to also say, Let me takethis part because I can, you
know, it's easy for me to dothis, it's harder for me to do
that.
You're really good at it, andyou get that sort of, I don't
(27:35):
know, cross-training is not theright word, but you you have the
trust among the folks that theyhave each other's, they have
each other's back.
SPEAKER_00 (27:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:43):
And even if it's not my job, but you're slammed, um,
which often happens in asecurity incident, somebody else
can come behind and and helpout.
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
So I'm thinking about the back to the book in
their chapter on play, and I'mwondering how much of your role
as a leader is helping teams toplay?
And not in a throw a ballaround, but just like all of
these little things that we'redoing, like these are all
opportunities to learn and grow.
And you made a mistake.
All right, we're gonna adjustfor the next time.
(28:17):
How, how did in your career wereyou able to do that?
And maybe, you know, obviouslythe book wasn't out, so you
didn't have necessary thatlanguage, but able to do that
and really help leaders, Iguess, grow and learn through
experience, through mistakes,through knowing, like, all
right, you really messed uphere.
I'm not gonna fire you, buthere's how we're gonna change
for next time.
Because I think too often, youknow, maybe leaders or
(28:41):
organizations are likeeverything always has to be
perfect.
And if you make a mistake,you're out, versus like, what
can we learn for next time?
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
It's interesting.
One of the things that um I'vemade a habit of doing throughout
my career is to look for thegaps.
So in the work that we're doing,where are there areas that
nobody's paying attention to?
And at some point someone willpay attention to, and then it
(29:09):
will be behind the eight ball.
It actually is how I got to bethe first CISO at Best Buy.
At that time, a million yearsago, security was focused either
on making sure the data centerwas locked, or from a IT
(29:29):
perspective, the credit cardcompanies were paying retailers
to put security measures intotheir software at point of sale.
I was responsible for that POSteam, and I kept thinking at
some point they're gonna stoppaying us to do this.
And if something bad happens,it's not gonna turn out well.
(29:52):
And Best Buy was a hugeorganization focused on the
customer, and so that would, tome, make it look like we weren't
paying attention to protectingour customers' data.
I started to work on thatproposal for a new a new job and
a role and a team, and this iswhat they would do.
And so as an example, I thoughtit was a big gap.
(30:18):
Um and I surrounded myself withthe smartest people I could find
who could advise me on in retailwhat would a CISO do and put
this proposal together.
So that was an example oflooking for a gap.
I pitched it initially my bosslaughed at it.
(30:39):
But then you know timing iseverything the TJ Maxx breach
was announced and the boardasked him who is responsible for
information security.
And he said, well as a matter offact I have this great idea.
And here we are.
But in general that's what Icall I encourage my teams to
(31:01):
look at.
Like in the stuff that we'redoing day to day, where are the
gaps?
Nobody's doing them, nobody cansay you're doing it right or
wrong.
So those are great opportunitiesfor people to try something to
grow, allowing people to shadowsomebody else to do sort of job
sharing where they get a chanceto see what it might look like
(31:25):
to do a role that they think isglamorous or a lot more fun than
what they're doing, giving themthose opportunities and then you
know being conscious of wherepeople's skill levels are.
I think it's really important toallow people to fail and to
celebrate that.
The faster you can fail and thenfigure it out and move forward
(31:49):
the faster you can grow.
And the worst thing that canhappen in a team is for
everybody to know that this isnever going to work out but no
one has permission to sayanything and they're on a death
march right up to the end.
And it's gonna fail just aquestion of how fast.
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
Right exactly you're like we have we just have to do
this and let it fail and thenwhat do we learn for it?
Because you don't know until youknow it it you know it's
interesting you talk about thegaps.
That's what you're doing on ourteam it seems like like what are
the gaps like leadership visionneeds help with you know with
the book release with all thisstuff you wrote uh in the like
(32:30):
the little document you haveI've made a career out of being
better than nothing and all youhave and I thought that was such
a fun quote d do you have moreto say about that because I I'm
I'm curious how if that's playedout in other ways because we're
trying to work yourself out of ajob, trying to create these new
roles, you know, whereleadership or the team can kind
(32:51):
of flourish without you I'mcurious what what we can learn
from that because it again itjust sort of seems
counterintuitive to a lot of thepeople that we talk to.
SPEAKER_01 (33:01):
So well I think it's giving yourself permission to
dream, to try to play to playall the chapters.
And for me it falls so closelyinto looking for a gap.
You know so if if there'ssomething that is clearly not
being taken care of then I'm andI'm willing to try it.
(33:25):
I'm better than nothing.
I'm all you've got I'm smartenough to figure out how do I
how do I do things um and it hasit has served me well because I
think so often we limitourselves to the title that we
(33:45):
have the role that we have andtry to just push forward on
that.
And I think work now life now ismore like a jungle gym than a
ladder and so to be able to goI'm gonna do this thing maybe
(34:06):
it's a you know maybe I'm notgonna get paid for it but I'm
gonna try to see if I can makesome headway here and people
notice they notice when you'retaking the initiative they
notice when you're doingsomething and you know it gives
your you give yourself in thatrole sort of permission to not
(34:28):
be perfect because there'snobody doing it.
I mean I remember asking theconsultant that talked about my
Jedi mind tricks like what doreal companies do when this
happens we were making we weremaking it up as we were going
along um and I think we did apretty good job.
SPEAKER_00 (34:53):
It it seems like everybody is like the more that
I learn about you know bigcompanies or read biographies of
famous leaders of companieseveryone's kind of making it up
as as they go.
They they do the best they canwith the information that they
have and if it's successful thenthat sort of becomes a template
for someone else to try and thenthat maybe gets gets tweaked or
(35:15):
or changed along the way.
I'm I'm I want to talk a littlebit here as we're sort of
closing out but just about thementorship like the the people
that you work with that youmentor that you coach that you
you know whatever word you wantto use for that I'm I'm curious
in 2025, October of 2025 as theworld has changed so much from
(35:35):
when you retired and even itfeels like every few months
different AI technologies comingout or different you know global
policies that pop up likeeverything is constantly
changing.
I'm curious if there's anythemes or messages or words of
encouragement that you know youhave shared over the years that
(35:56):
are still timeless, that arestill like this is what I would
tell a 25 year old you knowrelatively recent college grad.
This is what I would tell a 40something you know mid-career
professional this is what Iwould tell someone that's
looking at retirement in acouple of years.
When it comes to leadership whenit comes to even some of the
themes of the book what are someof those consistent messages
(36:18):
that over your career you stillshare with people you still say
do this you still say don't dothat.
I'm kind of looking for thoseCarnegie sort of lessons the
Deb, the Deb Dixon sort oflessons that are just timeless
no matter what crazy chaos isgoing on in the world.
SPEAKER_01 (36:35):
Do you have any of those kind of at the top of your
head well I think one of thethings that people often lose
sight of is people work forpeople.
They don't work for companiesand you know they will leave
their leaders so much hinges Ithink on the relationships that
(36:55):
you're able to form as a leaderand the understanding that you
have of the you know the teamthat you have so I think that's
one of the things to remember isat the end of the day people
work for people.
I think probably the biggerthing that no matter where you
are in your career becausethere's so so many people who
(37:19):
are you know thought they weregoing to be somewhere for a long
time and you know their job'sbeen eliminated or it's you know
there's something that's changeddramatically and I think part of
what I loved about the book somuch is give yourself and all of
(37:40):
the people around you permissionto dream.
We are our own worst enemiesbecause we're afraid to fail so
we don't try.
If you never try then you'renever you know you're never
gonna know and so you know partof what I encourage everybody
(38:01):
that I work with is what do youreally want what what do you
wake up in the morning and whatwould make you say God I can't
wait to get out of bed um and Ihave people oftentimes create a
list of like the components ofwhat they do not you know not
(38:23):
like I'm a CFO but like what arethe components of your job that
you really love what are thecomponents that you really hate
if you go back through thehistory of your work history or
life in general what are thethings that you love to do and
maybe out of that there's someaha moment of wow I'm I'm good
(38:49):
at this but I don't enjoy it.
And I think there's way too manypeople who are good at something
and that success is such ashackle to keep them from trying
something that would really makethem happy.
To me that's such a huge messageand theme of the book is giving
(39:12):
yourself and others permissionto dream and to to be seen and
to to try.
SPEAKER_00 (39:21):
I love that one of my favorite uh parts of your
foreword I highlighted here youcan't hear that what might be
possible if we gave ourselvespermission to never stop growing
and I I love that becausesometimes I think that we're
like oh this is who I am andthis is all that I am if I could
(39:41):
summarize our entireconversation here like you're
you're saying no that's nottrue.
Like keep growing keep changingfind that gap find something uh
you know to make yourself betterthan nothing yet all all that
you have and you know obviouslythat's that's the theme of the
book.
So Deb, is there any other finalthoughts that you have or things
that um you're hoping we talkedabout we would talk about that
(40:04):
we didn't I want to I want togive you the last word here.
Oh or we'll edit all this out ifyou don't have one.
SPEAKER_01 (40:12):
Well I actually do have one of my favorite quotes
from the book.
Ooh okay that I would love toend with the world needs people
and leaders with the courage todream new dreams big enough to
reach the world and brightenough to heal it so good.
SPEAKER_00 (40:31):
She's got it on a note card.
I do we did we got to make thatinto a t-shirt because I think
that's that's what it's allabout right yeah I love it.
It is well Deb, thank you somuch I really appreciate you uh
taking the time I I maybe we'llhave to do a follow-up because I
have a lot more questions foryou about all kinds of stuff.
So thank you.
(40:52):
You're welcome thank you forhaving me and thank you for
listening to the LeadershipVision Podcast our show helping
you build positive team culture.
You know we really can'toverstate just the impact and
influence that Deb has had onour team especially during uh
the unfolded process of gettingthis book published she has been
(41:16):
just a fountain of wisdom andknowledge and just helping us
think through all of the thingsthat we weren't thinking about.
And as she said in the interviewthere you know becoming
absolutely indispensable hasbeen truly her superpower.
So Deb, thank you so much fortaking the time to chat we just
barely even cracked the surfaceof your career and history and
(41:40):
all of the wisdom uh that youhave to offer so I don't know
listeners maybe we'll have herback for a second third or
fourth time but thank you somuch for listening to Leadership
Vision Podcast, our show helpingyou build positive team culture
and if you found value from thisepisode or any of our other
resources we would love it ifyou could follow us on social
media, review us wherever youget your podcast join our free
(42:04):
email newsletter and of courseshare this with someone that you
think could benefit from thismaterial.
You can click the link in theshow notes for more information
or visit us on the web atleadershipvision consulting dot
com.
My name is Nathan Freeberg andon behalf of our entire team
thanks for listening
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