January 29, 2024 • 17 mins
In this third and final part of this podcast episode, we conclude our conversation with Professors Alf Coles and Nathalie Sinclair about the dogmas they address in their book, I Can’t Do Maths! Why children say it and how to make a difference. In this part of the conversation, we put your questions, shared with us on social media, to Alf and Nathalie, and discuss topics including maths anxiety and enjoyment in the UK compared to other nations, how to support and encourage children who struggle with maths and how to respond when children ask, ‘When will I ever need this again?’.
A transcript (PDF) of this episode is available to download.
Show notes Taking part in the discussion:- Professor Alf Coles, University of Bristol
- Professor Nathalie Sinclair, Simon Fraser University, British Columbia
- Julia Thomson, Communications Manager, NCETM.
- 00:06 - Introduction and welcome
- 00:39 - Is maths anxiety a global issue?
- 02:31 - When will I ever need this maths?
- 09:18 - How parents can support their children
- 12:33 - The importance of learning maths
- 16:17 - Conclusion and final thoughts
- I Can’t Do Maths! Why children say it and how to make a difference by Professor Alf Coles and Professor Nathalie Sinclair (Bloomsbury, 2022)
- Vihart, maths YouTuber recommended by Nathalie Sinclair
- Maths Games with Bad Drawings by Ben Orlin (Little, Brown, 2022) recommended by Nathalie Sinclair
- Mathematics for Human Flourishing by Francis Su (Yale University Press, 2021) recommended by Nathalie Sinclair
- Learning Mathematics for an Environmentally Sustainable Future by Karl Bushnell (Association of Teachers of Maths, 2018), mentioned by Alf Coles
- NCETM Primary Mastery Professional Development Materials
- Gattegno’s ‘numbers as lengths’ as mentioned by Alf Coles, Working with Rods and Why (Association of Teachers of Mathematics, 2017)
- I Can't Do Maths - Podcast Episode 78 - Part 1
- I Can't Do Maths - Podcast Episode 78 - Part 2
- Explore previous episodes of the NCETM podcast in our archive.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hello and welcome to the NCETM Maths Podcast.
I'm Julia Thomson, Communications Manager at the NCETM, and this is the third and final part of my conversation with Professor Alf Coles and Professor Nathalie Sinclair, in which we discuss some of the ideas in their book, I Can't Do Maths, Why Children Say It, and How to Make a Difference.
In this episode we answer some of your questions which were shared on social media.
(00:29):
If you've not listened to parts one and two I would definitely start there first.
If you're still with us then we'll jump straight back into the conversation. 6 00:00:39,937.777777778 --> 00:00:46,157.777777778 Moving on to some questions from social media, because we had quite a lot of interest in the podcast on social media. 7 00:00:46,897.777777777 --> 00:01:05,891.307890022 So, That Pedagogy Geek asks, is this, and he's referring to maths anxiety, a problem specific to UK education? Why do you think it's less of a problem in Asia compared to the UK? I don't know whether maths anxiety is something which is a problem just in the UK or whether it's across the West. 8 00:01:06,301.307890021 --> 00:01:10,131.308390021 I'm pretty sure it's not it's not a UK specific problem. 9 00:01:10,141.308390022 --> 00:01:15,868.310657596 UNESCO produced a graph of countries sort of attainment on international tests. 10 00:01:16,208.310657596 --> 00:01:20,48.309657596 And it was either against maths anxiety or sort of enjoyment of maths on the other axis. 11 00:01:20,228.309657596 --> 00:01:27,921.641990929 I think Canadians enjoyed their maths more, compared to most countries that are attaining as well as Canada, which, which is also more than average. 12 00:01:28,631.642990929 --> 00:01:33,61.542990928 I think Britain was pretty much right in the middle of both those axes. 13 00:01:33,161.542990928 --> 00:01:35,441.542990928 So no, I don't think it is a maths specific problem. 14 00:01:35,741.542990928 --> 00:01:41,551.54249093 I mean, it's interesting, Asia, I mean, this is a very small sample, but we have Masters students coming from China. 15 00:01:41,551.54249093 --> 00:01:50,21.54299093 So maybe over the 13 years I've been at Bristol, maybe about a hundred students, let's say, from China have come over, to a person, they've not enjoyed their maths education. 16 00:01:50,101.54299093 --> 00:01:51,971.54299093 I don't know whether they're anxious about it. 17 00:01:52,221.54299093 --> 00:02:00,811.54099093 I mean, that's a different question, but it's certainly, they've felt it's been incredibly kind of exam oriented and exam focused and, in many cases, quite stressful. 18 00:02:01,761.54199093 --> 00:02:02,691.54099093 So that's interesting. 19 00:02:02,691.54199093 --> 00:02:11,891.34199093 So there's anxiety and there's enjoyment and, some of our highest attaining students might not necessarily enjoy maths because of the way it's been taught. 20 00:02:11,891.34199093 --> 00:02:17,971.34099093 So there's still potentially room for improvement, even in those high achieving nations. 21 00:02:18,501.34199093 --> 00:02:19,11.34149093 Absolutely. 22 00:02:19,11.34149093 --> 00:02:28,494.30797732 I mean, I think in some of Jo Boaler's research, she talks about the anxiety that can come from being in a top set in a secondary school, for instance, feeling you're not keeping up. 23 00:02:28,564.30797732 --> 00:02:28,654.30797732 Absolutely. 24 00:02:28,654.40797732 --> 00:02:29,779.20797732 So. 25 00:02:31,559.20797732 --> 00:02:37,879.10797732 This question, somebody posted it and there were lots of responses to this saying I have this problem as well. 26 00:02:38,369.10797732 --> 00:02:48,864.10797732 So, Jessie Big One asks, if you have any advice for teachers who are asked the question, when will I ever use this in real life? When covering topics they probably won't ever use again. 27 00:02:49,364.10797732 --> 00:02:56,294.10697732 Well, one of the best answers to this that someone offered to me a couple of years ago was you know, when am I going to need this maths? .And 28 00:02:56,294.10797732 --> 00:02:57,454.10797732 the answer is now. 29 00:03:00,504.10797732 --> 00:03:31,427.44031066 It's frustrating, isn't it? Because when you think about other subjects, like, when am I ever going to need to know the date of the Peasants' Revolt, or when am I going to need to know how waterfalls are formed? We seem to ask this question of maths, it's almost like a, I'm finding this quite tricky, I'm going to say, when am I ever going to need this? I mean, I think just to add one more brief thing, I mean, I think there's a sense for me in which, if a student's saying that what they're really saying is, this is too hard, or, or I'm bored, or something like that. 30 00:03:31,427.44031066 --> 00:03:35,72.44031065 And it feels like if you're asking that question, you are not open to an answer to it. 31 00:03:35,72.44031065 --> 00:03:38,477.44031065 So it's not clear to me that it's ever possible to really engage in that question. 32 00:03:38,532.44031065 --> 00:03:42,972.44031065 It seems to me the challenge is how might I construct my teaching so that question doesn't arise. 33 00:03:43,847.44031065 --> 00:03:48,327.44031065 Yeah, I mean, I, I think the on honest answer is twofold. 34 00:03:48,327.44031065 --> 00:03:52,857.44031065 One is that basically beyond grade six, you're not going to need the math. 35 00:03:53,137.44131065 --> 00:03:57,587.44031065 And we know that from a lot of research, except for in very specific careers. 36 00:03:58,367.44131065 --> 00:04:00,977.34131065 And the second part of that, but you're going to need it to. 37 00:04:01,137.44131065 --> 00:04:06,77.44131065 pass an exam to get into a university so that you can have a good life. 38 00:04:06,667.44131065 --> 00:04:12,812.44131065 I always like to think of, what if it was art? That was put in that role as a discipline. 39 00:04:13,172.44131065 --> 00:04:21,832.44131065 I think lots of people would find art abstract and then would say, when am I ever going to need this? And we'd have to say you probably won't ever need this. 40 00:04:22,172.44131065 --> 00:04:26,982.54131065 But, you know, if you want to get ahead in life you'll, you'll have to persist. 41 00:04:27,582.54131065 --> 00:04:36,442.64131065 So I agree with what Alf said is maybe focus more on how can you make it so that that question doesn't come up as often. 42 00:04:36,482.64131065 --> 00:04:48,282.64381065 And I think in the book we talk about that, but I think we should also be realistic with students and expose them to the way mathematics has become this gatekeeping discipline. 43 00:04:48,677.64381065 --> 00:04:57,807.64381065 And as a result, has really sort of alchemized into something that is very different from what mathematics actually is. 44 00:04:58,367.64381065 --> 00:05:10,857.74331065 So, this includes the focus on a lot of memorizing and algorithms and right and wrong answers, which is very different from other ways you can imagine engaging with mathematical ideas. 45 00:05:11,147.74331065 --> 00:05:23,367.74331065 So similarly, if it was art, there would probably be a lot of practising of drawing really straight lines, you know, which is probably not what most artists think that art is about. 46 00:05:23,587.74331065 --> 00:05:25,277.74031065 So I'm of two minds. 47 00:05:25,277.74031065 --> 00:05:32,287.74031065 I think it's really important that students understand the sort of socio political role of mathematics in our society. 48 00:05:33,172.74131065 --> 00:05:49,802.02348979 Yeah, and I'm inclined to think that perhaps if we approach it in a different way, in some of the ways that you've suggested, asking questions and looking at the ways that maths can be used to solve real world problems, that that makes it I think a bit more relevant to people. 49 00:05:50,52.02348979 --> 00:05:52,92.02348979 I mean, I think that's important too. 50 00:05:52,92.02348979 --> 00:06:09,593.69065647 I also I'm really, I really like the work of the mathematician, Francis Su and his book Mathematics for Human Flourishing, where he looks at, what are the desires that we have as humans and how are they addressed in mathematics, and that could be about developing friendships. 51 00:06:09,593.69065647 --> 00:06:10,833.69065647 It could be about love. 52 00:06:10,833.69065647 --> 00:06:12,563.69065647 It could be about connections. 53 00:06:12,973.69065647 --> 00:06:21,283.68965647 So all of those things are actually there in mathematics, and it doesn't only have to be about solving real world problems. 54 00:06:21,733.68965647 --> 00:06:28,328.68965647 You know, 90 percent of what mathematicians do has nothing to do with solving real world problems. 55 00:06:28,918.68965647 --> 00:06:33,878.68965647 Every once in a while, there's going to be something that actually is helpful in the real world. 56 00:06:33,928.68965647 --> 00:06:44,378.68965647 But it's also this other discipline of creating new objects, creating relations between objects, creating beautiful objects all of that. 57 00:06:44,388.68965647 --> 00:06:51,568.68965647 And I'm not saying that that's what mathematics should just be about because of course it has this other real world application side of it. 58 00:06:52,88.68965647 --> 00:07:04,708.68965647 But I think if we go too much towards always thinking about how is it relevant to real world, inciting cell phone plans between two different cell phone plans, that's also going to distort mathematics. 59 00:07:05,673.68965647 --> 00:07:17,512.25101475 So there's nothing wrong with a teacher saying, you might never use it again, but it's worthwhile to explore it because it's something new and it's something worthwhile and interesting and have a go, sort of thing. 60 00:07:17,777.15101475 --> 00:07:20,167.25001475 You don't have to make excuses for it. 61 00:07:20,187.25001475 --> 00:07:20,937.25001475 Beautiful even. 62 00:07:20,937.25001475 --> 00:07:26,407.25001475 I mean, another take on it is it's like this really important bit of our cultural heritage, a bit like kind of Shakespeare plays. 63 00:07:26,407.25001475 --> 00:07:31,577.25001475 I don't think people are questioning why we're learning Shakespeare, even though you're not going to use that in your life. 64 00:07:32,57.24901475 --> 00:07:32,257.24901475 Yes. 65 00:07:32,872.25001475 --> 00:07:41,35.58334808 Except for if you're in a podcast with Julia and then you can Oh, I don't want to interview anyone about Shakespeare. 66 00:07:41,35.68334808 --> 00:07:44,545.58334808 It's hard enough talking about maths. 67 00:07:45,135.58334808 --> 00:08:14,30.58334808 So another question from AJ Magic Message, he asks, what is the single biggest change schools could make to stop children thinking that they can't do maths? So I suppose a way we could look at that is if there's one thing that you could identify for schools to do or stop doing to make improvements, what do you think that might be? I mean, I think our book is quite explicitly not wanting to offer a single answer to that kind of question. 68 00:08:14,30.58334808 --> 00:08:15,290.58334808 I think it is complex. 69 00:08:15,580.58334808 --> 00:08:19,610.58334808 I mean, you know, one thing we touch on that is a single idea. 70 00:08:19,700.58334808 --> 00:08:24,730.58334808 It seems to be quite an important one is to try and shift towards method or focus on methods rather than answers. 71 00:08:24,730.58334808 --> 00:08:25,690.58334808 And we touched on that. 72 00:08:25,980.58234808 --> 00:09:02,310.58334808 I mean, I actually think particularly, you know, given this is an NCETM podcast, I actually think the NCETM professional development resources are really great, and we've certainly got anecdotal evidence of schools that have wholeheartedly gone into them have, you know, really quite transformational things happening in some of their classrooms, but that requires a leap of faith, I suppose, to maybe put away some some of the more prescribed schemes, and a commitment to make time for teachers to be able to work with those materials and have time co-planning and really thinking through their teaching. 73 00:09:02,310.58334808 --> 00:09:09,629.58334808 I mean, I think it's the more, as a teacher, I can have really thought through the details and nuances of what I'm offering. 74 00:09:09,659.58334808 --> 00:09:15,619.58334808 The more perhaps I'm able to try and get in touch with and offer some of these more creative aspects of the subject. 75 00:09:16,409.58334808 --> 00:09:16,949.58334808 Okay. 76 00:09:17,279.58334808 --> 00:09:17,789.58334808 So. 77 00:09:18,944.58334808 --> 00:09:25,124.58334808 I've heard you state, in another podcast I was listening to, that the book is for parents as well as teachers. 78 00:09:25,184.58334808 --> 00:09:28,864.58334808 And we did have a question from a parent actually, whose child struggled with maths. 79 00:09:29,404.58234808 --> 00:09:42,424.58334808 What can parents do to support their child if they're trapped in this web of dogmas? So, I suppose it is quite a web, and that's what you were saying it is more complex than thinking it's just a single thing that you can change. 80 00:09:42,434.58234808 --> 00:09:53,324.58334808 So what would you advise parents do? I know as a parent myself, sometimes you do feel a bit powerless about what your children are doing in school because you can't really influence it that much. 81 00:09:54,159.58334808 --> 00:09:55,139.58334808 That's a tough question. 82 00:09:55,139.58334808 --> 00:09:56,869.58334808 Yeah, it is a tough question. 83 00:09:56,869.58334808 --> 00:10:06,789.58234808 I think one way is to help their children see that the mathematics they're doing in school is not the only mathematics that's out there. 84 00:10:06,789.58234808 --> 00:10:10,441.48243899 And so there's so many resources now on the internet. 85 00:10:10,457.38248444 --> 00:10:12,187.38248444 I really like Vihart. 86 00:10:12,686.98271172 --> 00:10:28,486.98271172 Who has these beautiful doodling examples of mathematics showing where mathematical ideas sort of come from just from doodling and saying, Oh, yeah, that happens to be like what you were learning in class today around linear equations, but you probably didn't get it that way. 87 00:10:28,906.98171172 --> 00:10:35,951.98271172 I think it helps students to see: I actually can be good at and interested in other aspects of mathematics. 88 00:10:35,951.98271172 --> 00:10:38,821.98271172 It's just not what it is that they're doing in school. 89 00:10:38,831.98171172 --> 00:10:52,36.98371172 So, you know, the whole world of math doesn't become sort of narrowed down to just what it is that they're learning in school, which is often very numerical or are algebraic or symbolic. 90 00:10:52,406.98371172 --> 00:10:54,586.98371172 So I there's so much out there. 91 00:10:54,586.98371172 --> 00:11:00,966.98371172 I won't like mention other resources, but you know, please feel free to contact us if you'd like some examples of that. 92 00:11:01,16.98371172 --> 00:11:15,166.66434883 So that, you know, later on if they're in architecture, design or medical imaging or all of these places that actually draw on more geometric visual ways of thinking about mathematics that they don't sort of feel anxious. 93 00:11:15,656.66434883 --> 00:11:23,196.91024679 But they say, Oh, yeah, this is like the part I'm good at and feel like they can be successful in those areas. 94 00:11:23,706.90924679 --> 00:11:27,206.90924679 I think Alf has also talked a lot about engaging kids in games. 95 00:11:27,216.90924679 --> 00:11:30,256.90924679 So, you know, on on car trips or train trips or whatever. 96 00:11:30,256.90924679 --> 00:11:33,66.90924679 There's all sorts of really interesting games. 97 00:11:33,66.90924679 --> 00:11:36,926.90924679 I just bought a book called Math games with bad drawings. 98 00:11:37,576.90924679 --> 00:11:44,366.90924679 That is a collection of really fabulous games that all have like a connection to really deep mathematics. 99 00:11:44,431.90924679 --> 00:11:52,851.90924679 But that are easy to do pencil and paper fun with with kids of all ages, including grandparents and parents. 100 00:11:52,871.90924679 --> 00:12:07,791.90924679 And I think that can also be a low anxiety way to get kids sort of feeling confident about their own sort of capacity to reason and become interested. 101 00:12:07,846.90924679 --> 00:12:10,696.90924679 I think the sense of being playful in maths is so important. 102 00:12:10,826.90924679 --> 00:12:15,746.90924679 And I mean, I think children are often fascinated with big numbers and questions of infinity and, and things. 103 00:12:15,856.90924679 --> 00:12:16,836.90924679 That's really interesting. 104 00:12:16,896.90924679 --> 00:12:33,448.26555234 I've just finished recording a podcast with NRICH and they were talking about collaborative games and also the idea of a high ceiling, low threshold games, which, you know, are accessible and not frightening, but you have the option to really go interesting places with them. 105 00:12:33,858.26555234 --> 00:12:39,756.59788568 So my final question, which is linked a little bit to your final part of the book. 106 00:12:40,206.59788568 --> 00:12:46,986.49788568 It's particularly pertinent given some of the conversations that are going on about maths at the moment, especially in the United Kingdom. 107 00:12:47,806.49788568 --> 00:12:55,246.49688567 Why is learning maths worth it? And why does being able to do maths matter? Just a small question to end up with. 108 00:12:57,176.49688568 --> 00:12:57,796.49688568 No pressure. 109 00:12:58,396.49688567 --> 00:13:01,186.49788568 I think for me, we've kind of touched on some of these ideas. 110 00:13:01,236.49788568 --> 00:13:05,476.49788568 I mean, Nathalie touched on the maths as a gatekeeper and this sort of political aspect of maths. 111 00:13:05,696.49788568 --> 00:13:13,996.49888568 There's an aspect in which society is saying to all students and all parents and all teachers that children have to learn maths and that is essential. 112 00:13:15,11.59888568 --> 00:13:21,51.49888568 And whatever we think about that's the context in which children in school now are going to be growing up. 113 00:13:21,601.49888567 --> 00:13:28,211.49788567 I mean, I think, you know, I mentioned earlier one of my research interests around what climate change and so on means for maths education. 114 00:13:28,251.49888568 --> 00:13:29,601.49838567 And it is really clear there. 115 00:13:29,601.49838567 --> 00:13:38,356.49888567 I think we saw it in Covid as well that actually understanding what an exponential graph means or an exponential function does is actually really, really important. 116 00:13:38,426.49888567 --> 00:13:40,856.49888567 It being able to understand graphs and data. 117 00:13:40,966.49888567 --> 00:13:43,16.49888567 Being able to communicate about these things. 118 00:13:43,106.49888567 --> 00:13:50,706.49788567 And then, you know, at a deeper level, being able to question some of the mathematical assumptions behind some of these models. 119 00:13:50,736.49788567 --> 00:13:54,686.49788567 I mean, all these are clearly going to be really important skills for the future. 120 00:13:54,686.49788567 --> 00:13:55,416.49788567 It seems to me. 121 00:13:56,456.49888567 --> 00:14:06,876.49888567 And also to touch on another theme, I think we both would want to say that math is this really beautiful subject that actually is really worth it, you know, for its own sake. 122 00:14:08,16.49838567 --> 00:14:16,163.26555234 And I do that think there's an element in which maths seems to hold quite a significant power in terms of how as a learner I think about myself. 123 00:14:16,173.26555234 --> 00:14:27,674.83640155 So as well as it being sort of this very beautiful, satisfying subject, actually doing well in it is probably going to have knock on implications for how I see myself more broadly as a learner. 124 00:14:28,374.83640155 --> 00:14:28,474.83640155 Definitely. 125 00:14:28,474.93640155 --> 00:14:32,377.27481499 Have you got anything to add to that, Nathalie? That was perfect. 126 00:14:32,377.27481499 --> 00:14:56,357.17481499 I think this combination, which is an awkward combination that I think is specific to mathematics of being so powerful that it formats a lot of our society and in technology and the in stock market and surveillance and you know all of these things that we really need more people be able to understand how that's all working. 127 00:14:56,757.17481499 --> 00:15:15,197.17481499 And make sure that we're all okay with how it's working, which which I think we aren't in many cases, but if we don't know what mathematical decisions are being made we don't really know what alternatives there there are, so I think we need to have that kind of educated understanding of mathematics. 128 00:15:15,757.17481499 --> 00:15:24,17.17481499 And at the same time, mathematics can be so powerful for creating alternatives to o because mathematics isn't part of the real world. 129 00:15:24,27.17581499 --> 00:15:38,232.17581499 It gives us these ways of being speculative and imagining a different way of organizing things, different structures that can sometimes get us out of our normative sort of assumptions about how things have to be. 130 00:15:38,682.17581499 --> 00:15:45,162.17581499 So it's funny that it has this both like very negative and positive potential at the same time. 131 00:15:45,842.17581499 --> 00:15:49,442.17531499 It's almost like maths is going to happen whether you like it or not. 132 00:15:49,442.17531499 --> 00:16:04,943.86996011 And if you're one of the people who can understand it, then that's a powerful thing really, because, I don't want to be too ominous but there need to be more people able to scrutinise and come up with different solutions, different ideas across the social spectrum around the world. 133 00:16:05,363.86996011 --> 00:16:07,773.86996011 Absolutely Fantastic. 134 00:16:08,23.86996011 --> 00:16:10,353.86996011 Well, I've kept you for a long time. 135 00:16:10,703.86996011 --> 00:16:12,803.86996012 I really thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. 136 00:16:12,803.86996012 --> 00:16:15,223.86996011 So thank you so much for speaking to me today. 137 00:16:17,423.86996011 --> 00:16:20,933.86996011 And that brings my conversation with Alf and Nathalie to a close. 138 00:16:21,303.86996011 --> 00:16:33,473.86996011 I hope you found it as interesting as I did and hopefully it's given you some food for thought and perhaps some ideas to tackle some of the challenges we can face when teaching maths and how to deal with some of those more awkward questions. 139 00:16:34,428.86996011 --> 00:16:39,598.86996011 And if you'd like to read their book, it's 'I Can't Do Maths! Why children say it and how to make a difference'. 140 00:16:39,838.86996011 --> 00:16:43,588.8699601 It's published by Bloomsbury and is available from all major book retailers. 141 00:16:43,938.8699601 --> 00:16:46,108.8699601 My copy is already out on loan to a friend. 142 00:16:46,888.8699601 --> 00:16:50,858.8699601 Links to some of the resources and books mentioned by Alf and Nathalie are in the show notes. 143 00:16:51,278.8689601 --> 00:16:58,103.8699601 And if you're interested in teaching maths and the wider world of maths, do take a look at some of our other podcast episodes. 144 00:16:58,923.8699601 --> 00:17:00,973.8699601 We really hope you enjoyed this episode. 145 00:17:01,53.8699601 --> 00:17:06,83.8689601 And if you did do share it with colleagues and make sure you like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. 146 00:17:06,723.8689601 --> 00:17:10,43.8699601 You can also follow us on Instagram @themathspodcast. 147 00:17:10,453.8689601 --> 00:17:11,433.8689601 Thanks for listening.
Hello and welcome to the NCETM Maths Podcast.
I'm Julia Thomson, Communications Manager at the NCETM, and this is the third and final part of my conversation with Professor Alf Coles and Professor Nathalie Sinclair, in which we discuss some of the ideas in their book, I Can't Do Maths, Why Children Say It, and How to Make a Difference.
In this episode we answer some of your questions which were shared on social media.
(00:29):
If you've not listened to parts one and two I would definitely start there first.
If you're still with us then we'll jump straight back into the conversation. 6 00:00:39,937.777777778 --> 00:00:46,157.777777778 Moving on to some questions from social media, because we had quite a lot of interest in the podcast on social media. 7 00:00:46,897.777777777 --> 00:01:05,891.307890022 So, That Pedagogy Geek asks, is this, and he's referring to maths anxiety, a problem specific to UK education? Why do you think it's less of a problem in Asia compared to the UK? I don't know whether maths anxiety is something which is a problem just in the UK or whether it's across the West. 8 00:01:06,301.307890021 --> 00:01:10,131.308390021 I'm pretty sure it's not it's not a UK specific problem. 9 00:01:10,141.308390022 --> 00:01:15,868.310657596 UNESCO produced a graph of countries sort of attainment on international tests. 10 00:01:16,208.310657596 --> 00:01:20,48.309657596 And it was either against maths anxiety or sort of enjoyment of maths on the other axis. 11 00:01:20,228.309657596 --> 00:01:27,921.641990929 I think Canadians enjoyed their maths more, compared to most countries that are attaining as well as Canada, which, which is also more than average. 12 00:01:28,631.642990929 --> 00:01:33,61.542990928 I think Britain was pretty much right in the middle of both those axes. 13 00:01:33,161.542990928 --> 00:01:35,441.542990928 So no, I don't think it is a maths specific problem. 14 00:01:35,741.542990928 --> 00:01:41,551.54249093 I mean, it's interesting, Asia, I mean, this is a very small sample, but we have Masters students coming from China. 15 00:01:41,551.54249093 --> 00:01:50,21.54299093 So maybe over the 13 years I've been at Bristol, maybe about a hundred students, let's say, from China have come over, to a person, they've not enjoyed their maths education. 16 00:01:50,101.54299093 --> 00:01:51,971.54299093 I don't know whether they're anxious about it. 17 00:01:52,221.54299093 --> 00:02:00,811.54099093 I mean, that's a different question, but it's certainly, they've felt it's been incredibly kind of exam oriented and exam focused and, in many cases, quite stressful. 18 00:02:01,761.54199093 --> 00:02:02,691.54099093 So that's interesting. 19 00:02:02,691.54199093 --> 00:02:11,891.34199093 So there's anxiety and there's enjoyment and, some of our highest attaining students might not necessarily enjoy maths because of the way it's been taught. 20 00:02:11,891.34199093 --> 00:02:17,971.34099093 So there's still potentially room for improvement, even in those high achieving nations. 21 00:02:18,501.34199093 --> 00:02:19,11.34149093 Absolutely. 22 00:02:19,11.34149093 --> 00:02:28,494.30797732 I mean, I think in some of Jo Boaler's research, she talks about the anxiety that can come from being in a top set in a secondary school, for instance, feeling you're not keeping up. 23 00:02:28,564.30797732 --> 00:02:28,654.30797732 Absolutely. 24 00:02:28,654.40797732 --> 00:02:29,779.20797732 So. 25 00:02:31,559.20797732 --> 00:02:37,879.10797732 This question, somebody posted it and there were lots of responses to this saying I have this problem as well. 26 00:02:38,369.10797732 --> 00:02:48,864.10797732 So, Jessie Big One asks, if you have any advice for teachers who are asked the question, when will I ever use this in real life? When covering topics they probably won't ever use again. 27 00:02:49,364.10797732 --> 00:02:56,294.10697732 Well, one of the best answers to this that someone offered to me a couple of years ago was you know, when am I going to need this maths? .And 28 00:02:56,294.10797732 --> 00:02:57,454.10797732 the answer is now. 29 00:03:00,504.10797732 --> 00:03:31,427.44031066 It's frustrating, isn't it? Because when you think about other subjects, like, when am I ever going to need to know the date of the Peasants' Revolt, or when am I going to need to know how waterfalls are formed? We seem to ask this question of maths, it's almost like a, I'm finding this quite tricky, I'm going to say, when am I ever going to need this? I mean, I think just to add one more brief thing, I mean, I think there's a sense for me in which, if a student's saying that what they're really saying is, this is too hard, or, or I'm bored, or something like that. 30 00:03:31,427.44031066 --> 00:03:35,72.44031065 And it feels like if you're asking that question, you are not open to an answer to it. 31 00:03:35,72.44031065 --> 00:03:38,477.44031065 So it's not clear to me that it's ever possible to really engage in that question. 32 00:03:38,532.44031065 --> 00:03:42,972.44031065 It seems to me the challenge is how might I construct my teaching so that question doesn't arise. 33 00:03:43,847.44031065 --> 00:03:48,327.44031065 Yeah, I mean, I, I think the on honest answer is twofold. 34 00:03:48,327.44031065 --> 00:03:52,857.44031065 One is that basically beyond grade six, you're not going to need the math. 35 00:03:53,137.44131065 --> 00:03:57,587.44031065 And we know that from a lot of research, except for in very specific careers. 36 00:03:58,367.44131065 --> 00:04:00,977.34131065 And the second part of that, but you're going to need it to. 37 00:04:01,137.44131065 --> 00:04:06,77.44131065 pass an exam to get into a university so that you can have a good life. 38 00:04:06,667.44131065 --> 00:04:12,812.44131065 I always like to think of, what if it was art? That was put in that role as a discipline. 39 00:04:13,172.44131065 --> 00:04:21,832.44131065 I think lots of people would find art abstract and then would say, when am I ever going to need this? And we'd have to say you probably won't ever need this. 40 00:04:22,172.44131065 --> 00:04:26,982.54131065 But, you know, if you want to get ahead in life you'll, you'll have to persist. 41 00:04:27,582.54131065 --> 00:04:36,442.64131065 So I agree with what Alf said is maybe focus more on how can you make it so that that question doesn't come up as often. 42 00:04:36,482.64131065 --> 00:04:48,282.64381065 And I think in the book we talk about that, but I think we should also be realistic with students and expose them to the way mathematics has become this gatekeeping discipline. 43 00:04:48,677.64381065 --> 00:04:57,807.64381065 And as a result, has really sort of alchemized into something that is very different from what mathematics actually is. 44 00:04:58,367.64381065 --> 00:05:10,857.74331065 So, this includes the focus on a lot of memorizing and algorithms and right and wrong answers, which is very different from other ways you can imagine engaging with mathematical ideas. 45 00:05:11,147.74331065 --> 00:05:23,367.74331065 So similarly, if it was art, there would probably be a lot of practising of drawing really straight lines, you know, which is probably not what most artists think that art is about. 46 00:05:23,587.74331065 --> 00:05:25,277.74031065 So I'm of two minds. 47 00:05:25,277.74031065 --> 00:05:32,287.74031065 I think it's really important that students understand the sort of socio political role of mathematics in our society. 48 00:05:33,172.74131065 --> 00:05:49,802.02348979 Yeah, and I'm inclined to think that perhaps if we approach it in a different way, in some of the ways that you've suggested, asking questions and looking at the ways that maths can be used to solve real world problems, that that makes it I think a bit more relevant to people. 49 00:05:50,52.02348979 --> 00:05:52,92.02348979 I mean, I think that's important too. 50 00:05:52,92.02348979 --> 00:06:09,593.69065647 I also I'm really, I really like the work of the mathematician, Francis Su and his book Mathematics for Human Flourishing, where he looks at, what are the desires that we have as humans and how are they addressed in mathematics, and that could be about developing friendships. 51 00:06:09,593.69065647 --> 00:06:10,833.69065647 It could be about love. 52 00:06:10,833.69065647 --> 00:06:12,563.69065647 It could be about connections. 53 00:06:12,973.69065647 --> 00:06:21,283.68965647 So all of those things are actually there in mathematics, and it doesn't only have to be about solving real world problems. 54 00:06:21,733.68965647 --> 00:06:28,328.68965647 You know, 90 percent of what mathematicians do has nothing to do with solving real world problems. 55 00:06:28,918.68965647 --> 00:06:33,878.68965647 Every once in a while, there's going to be something that actually is helpful in the real world. 56 00:06:33,928.68965647 --> 00:06:44,378.68965647 But it's also this other discipline of creating new objects, creating relations between objects, creating beautiful objects all of that. 57 00:06:44,388.68965647 --> 00:06:51,568.68965647 And I'm not saying that that's what mathematics should just be about because of course it has this other real world application side of it. 58 00:06:52,88.68965647 --> 00:07:04,708.68965647 But I think if we go too much towards always thinking about how is it relevant to real world, inciting cell phone plans between two different cell phone plans, that's also going to distort mathematics. 59 00:07:05,673.68965647 --> 00:07:17,512.25101475 So there's nothing wrong with a teacher saying, you might never use it again, but it's worthwhile to explore it because it's something new and it's something worthwhile and interesting and have a go, sort of thing. 60 00:07:17,777.15101475 --> 00:07:20,167.25001475 You don't have to make excuses for it. 61 00:07:20,187.25001475 --> 00:07:20,937.25001475 Beautiful even. 62 00:07:20,937.25001475 --> 00:07:26,407.25001475 I mean, another take on it is it's like this really important bit of our cultural heritage, a bit like kind of Shakespeare plays. 63 00:07:26,407.25001475 --> 00:07:31,577.25001475 I don't think people are questioning why we're learning Shakespeare, even though you're not going to use that in your life. 64 00:07:32,57.24901475 --> 00:07:32,257.24901475 Yes. 65 00:07:32,872.25001475 --> 00:07:41,35.58334808 Except for if you're in a podcast with Julia and then you can Oh, I don't want to interview anyone about Shakespeare. 66 00:07:41,35.68334808 --> 00:07:44,545.58334808 It's hard enough talking about maths. 67 00:07:45,135.58334808 --> 00:08:14,30.58334808 So another question from AJ Magic Message, he asks, what is the single biggest change schools could make to stop children thinking that they can't do maths? So I suppose a way we could look at that is if there's one thing that you could identify for schools to do or stop doing to make improvements, what do you think that might be? I mean, I think our book is quite explicitly not wanting to offer a single answer to that kind of question. 68 00:08:14,30.58334808 --> 00:08:15,290.58334808 I think it is complex. 69 00:08:15,580.58334808 --> 00:08:19,610.58334808 I mean, you know, one thing we touch on that is a single idea. 70 00:08:19,700.58334808 --> 00:08:24,730.58334808 It seems to be quite an important one is to try and shift towards method or focus on methods rather than answers. 71 00:08:24,730.58334808 --> 00:08:25,690.58334808 And we touched on that. 72 00:08:25,980.58234808 --> 00:09:02,310.58334808 I mean, I actually think particularly, you know, given this is an NCETM podcast, I actually think the NCETM professional development resources are really great, and we've certainly got anecdotal evidence of schools that have wholeheartedly gone into them have, you know, really quite transformational things happening in some of their classrooms, but that requires a leap of faith, I suppose, to maybe put away some some of the more prescribed schemes, and a commitment to make time for teachers to be able to work with those materials and have time co-planning and really thinking through their teaching. 73 00:09:02,310.58334808 --> 00:09:09,629.58334808 I mean, I think it's the more, as a teacher, I can have really thought through the details and nuances of what I'm offering. 74 00:09:09,659.58334808 --> 00:09:15,619.58334808 The more perhaps I'm able to try and get in touch with and offer some of these more creative aspects of the subject. 75 00:09:16,409.58334808 --> 00:09:16,949.58334808 Okay. 76 00:09:17,279.58334808 --> 00:09:17,789.58334808 So. 77 00:09:18,944.58334808 --> 00:09:25,124.58334808 I've heard you state, in another podcast I was listening to, that the book is for parents as well as teachers. 78 00:09:25,184.58334808 --> 00:09:28,864.58334808 And we did have a question from a parent actually, whose child struggled with maths. 79 00:09:29,404.58234808 --> 00:09:42,424.58334808 What can parents do to support their child if they're trapped in this web of dogmas? So, I suppose it is quite a web, and that's what you were saying it is more complex than thinking it's just a single thing that you can change. 80 00:09:42,434.58234808 --> 00:09:53,324.58334808 So what would you advise parents do? I know as a parent myself, sometimes you do feel a bit powerless about what your children are doing in school because you can't really influence it that much. 81 00:09:54,159.58334808 --> 00:09:55,139.58334808 That's a tough question. 82 00:09:55,139.58334808 --> 00:09:56,869.58334808 Yeah, it is a tough question. 83 00:09:56,869.58334808 --> 00:10:06,789.58234808 I think one way is to help their children see that the mathematics they're doing in school is not the only mathematics that's out there. 84 00:10:06,789.58234808 --> 00:10:10,441.48243899 And so there's so many resources now on the internet. 85 00:10:10,457.38248444 --> 00:10:12,187.38248444 I really like Vihart. 86 00:10:12,686.98271172 --> 00:10:28,486.98271172 Who has these beautiful doodling examples of mathematics showing where mathematical ideas sort of come from just from doodling and saying, Oh, yeah, that happens to be like what you were learning in class today around linear equations, but you probably didn't get it that way. 87 00:10:28,906.98171172 --> 00:10:35,951.98271172 I think it helps students to see: I actually can be good at and interested in other aspects of mathematics. 88 00:10:35,951.98271172 --> 00:10:38,821.98271172 It's just not what it is that they're doing in school. 89 00:10:38,831.98171172 --> 00:10:52,36.98371172 So, you know, the whole world of math doesn't become sort of narrowed down to just what it is that they're learning in school, which is often very numerical or are algebraic or symbolic. 90 00:10:52,406.98371172 --> 00:10:54,586.98371172 So I there's so much out there. 91 00:10:54,586.98371172 --> 00:11:00,966.98371172 I won't like mention other resources, but you know, please feel free to contact us if you'd like some examples of that. 92 00:11:01,16.98371172 --> 00:11:15,166.66434883 So that, you know, later on if they're in architecture, design or medical imaging or all of these places that actually draw on more geometric visual ways of thinking about mathematics that they don't sort of feel anxious. 93 00:11:15,656.66434883 --> 00:11:23,196.91024679 But they say, Oh, yeah, this is like the part I'm good at and feel like they can be successful in those areas. 94 00:11:23,706.90924679 --> 00:11:27,206.90924679 I think Alf has also talked a lot about engaging kids in games. 95 00:11:27,216.90924679 --> 00:11:30,256.90924679 So, you know, on on car trips or train trips or whatever. 96 00:11:30,256.90924679 --> 00:11:33,66.90924679 There's all sorts of really interesting games. 97 00:11:33,66.90924679 --> 00:11:36,926.90924679 I just bought a book called Math games with bad drawings. 98 00:11:37,576.90924679 --> 00:11:44,366.90924679 That is a collection of really fabulous games that all have like a connection to really deep mathematics. 99 00:11:44,431.90924679 --> 00:11:52,851.90924679 But that are easy to do pencil and paper fun with with kids of all ages, including grandparents and parents. 100 00:11:52,871.90924679 --> 00:12:07,791.90924679 And I think that can also be a low anxiety way to get kids sort of feeling confident about their own sort of capacity to reason and become interested. 101 00:12:07,846.90924679 --> 00:12:10,696.90924679 I think the sense of being playful in maths is so important. 102 00:12:10,826.90924679 --> 00:12:15,746.90924679 And I mean, I think children are often fascinated with big numbers and questions of infinity and, and things. 103 00:12:15,856.90924679 --> 00:12:16,836.90924679 That's really interesting. 104 00:12:16,896.90924679 --> 00:12:33,448.26555234 I've just finished recording a podcast with NRICH and they were talking about collaborative games and also the idea of a high ceiling, low threshold games, which, you know, are accessible and not frightening, but you have the option to really go interesting places with them. 105 00:12:33,858.26555234 --> 00:12:39,756.59788568 So my final question, which is linked a little bit to your final part of the book. 106 00:12:40,206.59788568 --> 00:12:46,986.49788568 It's particularly pertinent given some of the conversations that are going on about maths at the moment, especially in the United Kingdom. 107 00:12:47,806.49788568 --> 00:12:55,246.49688567 Why is learning maths worth it? And why does being able to do maths matter? Just a small question to end up with. 108 00:12:57,176.49688568 --> 00:12:57,796.49688568 No pressure. 109 00:12:58,396.49688567 --> 00:13:01,186.49788568 I think for me, we've kind of touched on some of these ideas. 110 00:13:01,236.49788568 --> 00:13:05,476.49788568 I mean, Nathalie touched on the maths as a gatekeeper and this sort of political aspect of maths. 111 00:13:05,696.49788568 --> 00:13:13,996.49888568 There's an aspect in which society is saying to all students and all parents and all teachers that children have to learn maths and that is essential. 112 00:13:15,11.59888568 --> 00:13:21,51.49888568 And whatever we think about that's the context in which children in school now are going to be growing up. 113 00:13:21,601.49888567 --> 00:13:28,211.49788567 I mean, I think, you know, I mentioned earlier one of my research interests around what climate change and so on means for maths education. 114 00:13:28,251.49888568 --> 00:13:29,601.49838567 And it is really clear there. 115 00:13:29,601.49838567 --> 00:13:38,356.49888567 I think we saw it in Covid as well that actually understanding what an exponential graph means or an exponential function does is actually really, really important. 116 00:13:38,426.49888567 --> 00:13:40,856.49888567 It being able to understand graphs and data. 117 00:13:40,966.49888567 --> 00:13:43,16.49888567 Being able to communicate about these things. 118 00:13:43,106.49888567 --> 00:13:50,706.49788567 And then, you know, at a deeper level, being able to question some of the mathematical assumptions behind some of these models. 119 00:13:50,736.49788567 --> 00:13:54,686.49788567 I mean, all these are clearly going to be really important skills for the future. 120 00:13:54,686.49788567 --> 00:13:55,416.49788567 It seems to me. 121 00:13:56,456.49888567 --> 00:14:06,876.49888567 And also to touch on another theme, I think we both would want to say that math is this really beautiful subject that actually is really worth it, you know, for its own sake. 122 00:14:08,16.49838567 --> 00:14:16,163.26555234 And I do that think there's an element in which maths seems to hold quite a significant power in terms of how as a learner I think about myself. 123 00:14:16,173.26555234 --> 00:14:27,674.83640155 So as well as it being sort of this very beautiful, satisfying subject, actually doing well in it is probably going to have knock on implications for how I see myself more broadly as a learner. 124 00:14:28,374.83640155 --> 00:14:28,474.83640155 Definitely. 125 00:14:28,474.93640155 --> 00:14:32,377.27481499 Have you got anything to add to that, Nathalie? That was perfect. 126 00:14:32,377.27481499 --> 00:14:56,357.17481499 I think this combination, which is an awkward combination that I think is specific to mathematics of being so powerful that it formats a lot of our society and in technology and the in stock market and surveillance and you know all of these things that we really need more people be able to understand how that's all working. 127 00:14:56,757.17481499 --> 00:15:15,197.17481499 And make sure that we're all okay with how it's working, which which I think we aren't in many cases, but if we don't know what mathematical decisions are being made we don't really know what alternatives there there are, so I think we need to have that kind of educated understanding of mathematics. 128 00:15:15,757.17481499 --> 00:15:24,17.17481499 And at the same time, mathematics can be so powerful for creating alternatives to o because mathematics isn't part of the real world. 129 00:15:24,27.17581499 --> 00:15:38,232.17581499 It gives us these ways of being speculative and imagining a different way of organizing things, different structures that can sometimes get us out of our normative sort of assumptions about how things have to be. 130 00:15:38,682.17581499 --> 00:15:45,162.17581499 So it's funny that it has this both like very negative and positive potential at the same time. 131 00:15:45,842.17581499 --> 00:15:49,442.17531499 It's almost like maths is going to happen whether you like it or not. 132 00:15:49,442.17531499 --> 00:16:04,943.86996011 And if you're one of the people who can understand it, then that's a powerful thing really, because, I don't want to be too ominous but there need to be more people able to scrutinise and come up with different solutions, different ideas across the social spectrum around the world. 133 00:16:05,363.86996011 --> 00:16:07,773.86996011 Absolutely Fantastic. 134 00:16:08,23.86996011 --> 00:16:10,353.86996011 Well, I've kept you for a long time. 135 00:16:10,703.86996011 --> 00:16:12,803.86996012 I really thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. 136 00:16:12,803.86996012 --> 00:16:15,223.86996011 So thank you so much for speaking to me today. 137 00:16:17,423.86996011 --> 00:16:20,933.86996011 And that brings my conversation with Alf and Nathalie to a close. 138 00:16:21,303.86996011 --> 00:16:33,473.86996011 I hope you found it as interesting as I did and hopefully it's given you some food for thought and perhaps some ideas to tackle some of the challenges we can face when teaching maths and how to deal with some of those more awkward questions. 139 00:16:34,428.86996011 --> 00:16:39,598.86996011 And if you'd like to read their book, it's 'I Can't Do Maths! Why children say it and how to make a difference'. 140 00:16:39,838.86996011 --> 00:16:43,588.8699601 It's published by Bloomsbury and is available from all major book retailers. 141 00:16:43,938.8699601 --> 00:16:46,108.8699601 My copy is already out on loan to a friend. 142 00:16:46,888.8699601 --> 00:16:50,858.8699601 Links to some of the resources and books mentioned by Alf and Nathalie are in the show notes. 143 00:16:51,278.8689601 --> 00:16:58,103.8699601 And if you're interested in teaching maths and the wider world of maths, do take a look at some of our other podcast episodes. 144 00:16:58,923.8699601 --> 00:17:00,973.8699601 We really hope you enjoyed this episode. 145 00:17:01,53.8699601 --> 00:17:06,83.8689601 And if you did do share it with colleagues and make sure you like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. 146 00:17:06,723.8689601 --> 00:17:10,43.8699601 You can also follow us on Instagram @themathspodcast. 147 00:17:10,453.8689601 --> 00:17:11,433.8689601 Thanks for listening.
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