The new McCrindle report ‘An undercurrent of faith’ says:
- Those turning to Christian faith are not who we might expect - it’s especially older people, the recently widowed and recently separated or divorced.
- The move is most on away from Christian identity in outer suburbia and regional areas.
- Australians are still turning to Christianity in large numbers, despite a decline in Christian affiliation.
- While 85,000 15-24 year olds have moved towards Christianity in the last five years, that’s dramatically down on a decade ago
Founder and Principle of McCrindle research, Mark McCrinde, says his report shows a new search for purpose and meaning and asks is “Australia Post Christian or are we now Post Secular?”
Plus we compare the findings of the national McCrindle report with the recent Sydney Anglican report on Church attendance.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
it is the pastor's heart and dominic steel.
And how should ministrystrategies change in the light
of a new report into changes andtrends in religious affiliation
in australian society?
Mark mccrindle is with us today.
He's compiled a major newreport, an Undercurrent of Faith
.
What advice does Mark MacRindlehave for us as church leaders
(00:29):
today?
An overview on the changes inreligious affiliation in
Australian society.
Several big findings.
Those turning to Christianfaith are not who we might
expect.
It's especially older people,the recently widowed, the
recently separated and divorced,especially older people, the
recently widowed, the recentlyseparated and divorced.
Outer suburbia and regionalareas is where the move is on
(00:50):
away from Christian identity andthe top reasons that people
move towards and away fromChristian faith.
Australians are still turningto Christianity in significant
numbers, but that's despite adecline in Christian affiliation
, while 85,000 15 to 24 yearolds have moved towards
(01:10):
Christianity in recent years.
That's actually dramaticallydown on a decade ago and more
young Christians are movingtowards no religion and
significantly, there is a searchfor purpose and meaning.
And the report asks is Australianow post-Christian or
post-secular?
Mark McRindle, thanks forcoming in.
(01:32):
Let's start with your pastor'sheart.
I mean, you're not a pastor,you're a researcher, but you are
significantly involved in yourlocal church and concerned for
Australians to know and trustand love the Lord Jesus.
As you've taken this step backfrom the Australian church scene
and looked at what's going on,what's it done to your heart?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I think there's great cause for encouragement with
some of this data.
You know we can sometimes toilaway and feel it's hard soil and
we can't see fruit and thetimes are headed in one
direction, that's away fromChristianity, towards more
secularism, away from the church.
But it was encouraging to seethis, to see, sure, there is
that major trend, but there arecountertrends, there are
(02:11):
undercurrents.
I found that excellent and justeven with youth, young adults
and young people, there's somevibrant spots that we're seeing
and some great encouragement asyoung people in a very secular
culture and materialistic worldare looking for substance,
meaning and purpose and many arefinding that in Christianity.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Let's go big picture first.
And there is an overall drop inpeople identifying as
Christians in the Australiancensus.
But and we'll put this up onthe screen here your report says
there's an increase in peopleattending church.
Now I'm a bit sceptical, butgive me the thesis.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah well, firstly, you know that big headline
figure there I mean to drop in10 years.
That's three census periods but10 years in time.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
From 61 to 44.
61, that's millions of people.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
That's national.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
That's kind of affiliation of I am a Christian
or I'm a no religion.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Exactly that's the census question.
It's an optional question.
Most Australians fill it in andit shows a big move to no
religion, not so much fromChristianity to other religions.
But yes, what we're trying topaint here is that, look,
there's more to that story andthere's not just the shift to no
Christianity, from Christianityto no religion.
(03:29):
There's a shift back the otherway, and we pick that up in the
report.
But also this data on churchattendance is quite encouraging.
Every year that the census isconducted in Australia, the
National Church Life Surveyconduct a study of those in the
pews and their data looks at theproportion of Australians who
attend church once a month ormore is the definition, and so
(03:50):
you can see that it's largelyremained stable.
Most recent year of 2021, itwent up significantly.
A slight methodology changethere, where they include people
who attend church via online,not just turning up who attend
church via online, not justturning up?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Have they given you the breakdown between the
in-person attendance and theonline attendance?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
They do have that data as well.
Yeah, and it's certainly a fewpercentage points is the online
only, so it's probably not toomuch different, because I'm
sceptical here because I mean,we're thinking 2021,.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
That was the time of lockdown too.
I know our attendance was amess in 2000, and I don't think
we were different to any of ourfriends.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Well, 2021 was even the census was conducted in some
of the lockdowns, so it was afraught year.
I think anything with a 2020 or2021 date has an asterisk
beside it, so I think we need tokeep that in mind as well.
But regardless of whether it'sa couple of percentage points
below what it's recording, itshows relatively stable church
attendance in Australia amidstdeclining Christianity
(05:01):
identification.
So that tells us that, whilecultural Christianity is
dissipating and people aren'tgoing to tick that box because
of some heritage, history orcultural connection that is the
Christianity box those that aregenuine in their faith and in
their Christianity are stillattending church and there's no
real change there.
So there might be within thetotal Christianity.
(05:23):
There's certainly a culturalChristianity and there's a
genuine Christianity, and it'snot as though the genuine
Christianity is dropping in thesame way culturally.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Let's have a look at the Sydney Anglicans attendance
report over the last 10 yearsand those of you watching will
be able to see that Mark hasbetter graphic designers on his
team because I've got your graphon the left and the Sydney
Anglicans on the right, and Imean one of the Pentecostal
leaders that I was talking to.
when I told him that theAnglicans had gone down 7%, he
(05:51):
said actually that's a fantasticresult in that season, because
his experience in thePentecostal tribe was that
they'd gone down significantlymore.
So how do you put those twographs together?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, well, I think the big one is the big reason
for the difference is includingonline.
I mean, it would be the same ifwe say who goes to the office
versus who goes to work.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, going to work is digital.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
For many people, hybrid is the mainstream, and I
think that's true of even somesocial gathering, it's true of
training and education, where itcan be done in a hybrid way,
and it's true, therefore, ofchurch.
So you are getting a lot morepeople just sort of resting back
on the digital option.
Even if they're still turningup on occasion, they probably
(06:37):
aren't making the regular churchcategory, which is at least
monthly in the building, butmaybe with the online that's
what gets them there.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
And that's going to have an impact on, if you like.
But I mean, people tune intoour service and I don't know who
they are and in terms of and Idon't think they're giving to us
and you know, and they're noton one of the ministry teams,
perhaps a little bit they are inthat some people might tune
into us when they're on holidaysor away for a weekend or
(07:07):
something like that, but overallthat commitment's not the same.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I think that's right, Dominic, and it's
important, I think, to remindChristians of that requirement
to not give up meeting together.
And yet, you know, we're in anera where it's not just online
church, but people have anynumber of preachers that they
can go to, or other what mightbe spiritual support apps and
other things.
They say you know what I'mgetting my church or my
(07:31):
spiritual input through theseapps?
I don't need to be part ofchurch anymore.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
And part of the problem there is it's a DIY
faith rather than actually I'mbeing held to account by a
prophet of God.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Now let's go to this next slide on Christian or
people moving from no religionto Christianity.
Beneath the headline figures,there's a steady stream of
people, and so this is thecountercultural trend that you
were talking about.
Tell me about that?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Well, first thing to say is that the definition of
religion, or how someone fillsthe census box, in particularly
around Christianity, has changed.
So people used to tick and infact the census question lies
right in the midst of culturequestions what's your ancestry?
Where were your parents born?
What language do you speak athome?
What's your religion?
Because when the census was puttogether, and pretty much for
(08:22):
most of the last century, that'show you fill in the religion
question.
Well, I'm born in Britain, soit's Church of England or it's
Anglican and so being, butactually that's changed now.
We surveyed Australians.
We said how do you fill it in?
And the majority of Australianssaid they fill the religion
question in based on theircurrent belief and active
(08:42):
practice.
And if they don't currentlybelieve the tenets of
Christianity and they're notactively practicing it, then
they're not ticking that box.
And so that's one reason we'veseen the decline is cultural.
Christianity is no longersomething that people go for.
If they're choosingChristianity, it's a real… it's.
I believe it Exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Or it's more, I believe it.
We're washing out the nominals.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Exactly.
There's something substantialin that, and that's why these
figures 800,000 almost in 2016,who said no religion have come
across to Christianity.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
So you think the 880 there back in 2006 is more
likely to be a higher nominalpercentage, whereas the 784 in
2021 is more likely to be a realfaith group.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Well, I wouldn't discriminate too much.
I mean the trend has been overthe last few decades.
So if people, particularly ifthey were no religion, then
clearly it's not history orheritage.
No, no, no, they're in the noreligion category and now
they're saying Christianity,that's close to conversion, or
certainly taking thatChristianity seriously, yeah,
yeah, that's significant, isn'tit?
And so you know 800,000, I mean,that's 2.4 million people over
(09:49):
that period of time that havegone from no religion to
Christianity in a time when theframe defining Christianity,
defining your faith, is moretightly held.
Let's go to geography.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
And I was very interested because I was part of
the committee in Sydney thatlooked at the geographic changes
in church attendance here, andthere's something going on on
the national picture of changesin church attendance based on,
well, how close you are to thecity and how far away.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Let's start with the national picture and you Sure
Well you've got this lower andstraight one there, which is the
inner cities.
Well, you've got inner citiesand capital cities running along
the bottom there, where you'vegot inner cities and capital
cities running along the bottomthere.
In other words, they have hadthe they've been sort of the
most stable.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
So where we are right in the inner city of Sydney now
, there has been a move away,but it's not been as rapid as
the move away in either theregional, the outer suburbia or
the regional Exactly, and that'sthis line that starts at the
very bottom and goes up to thetop.
And that's spectacular, isn'tit?
(11:02):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
So what's happened over the last five years
particularly is that a lot ofgeographies have changed in
Australia.
Forty per cent of thepopulation in Australia now live
at a new address.
Compared to the previous census, that's more than 10 million
australians, and a lot of themovement has not just been from
this suburb to that suburb, butfrom this city to this regional
area or from this outer suburbanarea to this, uh, outer
(11:23):
regional area, and so a lot ofthe inner city has been moving
to your regions or or otherareas for cost of living
purposes, and if you candecouple work from location, hey
, they can keep their inner cityjob, but work it maybe from a
region.
And so the result is that theproportion that used to be the
lowest in terms of moving to noreligion from Christianity has
(11:45):
now become the highest, because,in relative terms, these
regional and remote areas arerelatively small.
You've got a lot of city peoplecoming in, bringing their no
religion with them in that sense.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
So you think it's primarily to do with people
moving house, rather, and, ifyou like, what was the upstream
flowing into the downstream?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That's right, correct , and it's demographic change.
It's the internal migrationpeople from the cities moving to
regional areas, changing thenature of those areas that used
to have a slightly higherreligion category.
The other thing that's happenedyou have a higher Christianity
count when you've got an olderpopulation, but what's happening
at the moment with this seachange and tree change is that a
(12:28):
lot of people making the moveare the young couples and the
young families and they alsohave a lower Christianity count.
So, yes, as the cities move tothe regions, we're getting some
of those regions look a littlebit more like the inner cities
in terms of higher, no religioncount.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Let's go to this next graph, and this one is the one
from the Sydney Anglicans.
That's a, if you like, acompare and contrast, and the
two ones that I wanted to drawyour attention to are the blue
line, which is the increase inthe no religions, and then the
brown line, which is theProtestant affiliation.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Now we can see that South Sydney, which is inner
Sydney, has only had really aminus 5%.
Southwestern Sydney a minus 5%.
Interestingly sorry, this isminus 5 on the nuns.
You know, yes, interestinglywhereas you go to Wollongong big
(13:23):
increase in the no religionsand you know Western Sydney.
So it's out in Wollongong, inthe region, that we've had the
big increase in the no religion,whereas the Protestant
affiliation hasn't changed atall much in the inner city but
it's over here in the Wollongong, western Sydney and Northern.
(13:46):
So that actually fits with yournational picture, I think.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yes, that's right, exactly.
You know also the people movingto the regional areas where
you've got a lot more housing,going in, young families looking
, young couples looking to startlife, they're also making lots
of other changes.
If they're moving locations,they're saying, well, you know
what that church, we're part ofthat Christianity, or you know
that history, we're going tocarve our own pathway out.
(14:11):
So you do get a bit of changein religious persuasion.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I mean it does say to you, doesn't it, that I ought
to be on the lookout for peoplemoving into my area, you know,
and thinking, how can I pick upthese new people?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah Well, you mentioned at the start, Dominic,
that where you see peoplemoving to Christianity above the
average are those moving to anew address, those widowed and
single.
They also are moving away fromChristianity at above average
rates.
Really, they're in both camps,they're in both categories
moving to and moving from.
In other words, when there's amajor life change, whether that
(14:42):
be changing address, movinglocation, changing family
situation, people will move tofaith and people will move away
from faith, depending on wherethey're at in their approach.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
We've been running divorce care here for 18 years
or something like that, and Iwould say our course Introducing
God has been perhaps the majorflow of people into this church,
but our second major flow wouldbe the divorce care course.
So when I saw that you weresaying the recently divorced was
(15:18):
particularly open to Christianfaith, I thought, ah, that rings
true for me.
And then I thought what do I doto help our church appeal to
the recently widowed, thebereaving?
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yes, yes, help our church.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
appeal to the recently widow the bereaving and
I thought there's a strategyquestion for us to have staff
team discussions on.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Well, it's important because that's when people are
thinking about those things inlife which we found are the most
likely to bring people toChristianity from no religion
searching for purpose, meaning,belonging and connection,
looking for spiritual answers inlife and of course, we seek
most deeply when there's painmeaning belonging and connection
.
Looking for spiritual answersin life, and of course, we seek
most deeply when there's pain,hurt, relational breakdown.
So they're key categories, keytimes to really connect with
(16:00):
that part of the community.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Let's just think, though, also demographics,
because you're saying and we'llput this up on the slide here
that increasing numbers of olderAustralians are moving towards
Christian faith.
That surprised me, because, inmy sense, the baby boomers
(16:23):
people a little bit older thanme are pretty hardened, pretty
tough, pretty set in their ways,and yet.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yet when they get to that life stage stage maybe it's
looking after an elderly parentand seeing them through health
challenges or or death, um,maybe it's, uh, seeing the
grandchild come along, startingto think about the future and
purpose, or maybe their ownlifestyle and life stages and
health issues you start to thinkabout mortality, life, the
future and eternity, and sothat's one of the factors that
(16:52):
do get older people to reflecton what they believe.
Now, keep in mind, these 55-plusthat are above average moving
from no religion to Christianityare also those who have most
likely had an early Christianityexperience.
They went to Scripture as kids,exactly, they left it.
It wasn't for them theinstitution or church problems
they had, whatever it was, theymoved away.
(17:13):
But there's somehow evidentlybeen a seed planted in many of
them and they, at the later endof life, start to look back to
that.
In fact, the proportion offormer Christians coming back to
faith so census longitudinallytallies this, it's quite
interesting has been increasingfive years by five years.
There's more people who were aChristian moved away and now are
(17:34):
saying Christianity again.
That's a growing group, andparticularly in the older.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So if we think about the National Church Life Survey,
there's hope for thosereturners, if you like, and
potentially to see an increasein returners.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, exactly One in five of those who sits in the
pews of a church made a decisionfor the faith as adults.
So do you?
Speaker 1 (17:53):
think what would you be saying if you were giving a
consultation for church leaders,which in fact you are doing
right?
Now what do you think we shouldbe thinking strategically?
I mean about older people.
Should we think, ah, we haven'tgot an older people's service,
Should we have one?
That kind of thing?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
You know, clearly Australia andmost ministries around the
world put their energies intochildren's and youth ministry
and I think that's veryappropriate and there's data in
this to show that there are goodnumbers of young people moving
from no religion to Christianity, which for young people
definitely seems like it is aconversion.
(18:32):
It is a true faith, becausethey're not doing it to get in
line with the broader culture.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
No, no, no, we're against cult.
Exactly, they're not runningwith the peer group pressure.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Definitely.
But if you look at the aboveaverage movements and where the
peak is, it's in the oldercategories and I think we don't
naturally have ministries thereand we need to, particularly
because that's where thepopulation growth is.
People are living longer andthere's great opportunity for
ministry.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Let's go to the next slide and I just want you to
give us I mean, you've just toldme really good things about the
growth in the older.
Tell me about the middle-agedand the younger, where it's not
going as well.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Well, with the younger and right through to
middle age we've got peoplemoving away from Christianity at
a faster rate than that.
Population share is growing.
So in fact you can see changein the share of population.
We've got an ageing population.
That's why there's growth inthe older age groups and a
slight shrinkage here aspercentage of population.
(19:28):
But the percentage share ofChristianity is dropping in the
younger age groups at a fasterrate.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
What does it mean, though, if I go to the next
slide, that you're saying thatthe well?
I'm just interested with thebaby boomers here that they're
less likely percentage-wise.
I mean, there might be more ofthem and more of them turning to
Christian faith, but of theones who turn to Christian faith
, they're the ones who are notgoing to church.
(19:53):
No, just a correction.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
This is the total population who says Christianity
is their religion, right, byage group and now, whether they
attend church regularly, right.
So in other words, there's alot more baby boomers who tick
Christianity on the census.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
A lot fewer young people tick Christianity, so
there's a bigger nominalpercentage.
Exactly there, a lot feweryoung people tick Christianity,
so there's a bigger nominalpercentage.
There's really 74% nominalsamong the baby boomers, whereas
you're actually saying if I lookover to Gen Z, there's only 32%
who are nominals in Gen Z.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
If a young person, that's exactly right, dominic.
If a young person says my faithis Christianity or I tick
Christianity on the census form,two-thirds of them are at
church.
They're genuine in that faith.
They're practicing that throughregular church attendance and
you know we'd imagine otherChristian practices as well.
So it's a solid number.
When you look at young peoplein Christianity, if they're
moving particularly from noreligion to Christianity, you
(20:46):
can almost guarantee thatthey're backing that up with a
Christian lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Let's stay on that younger person moving towards
Christianity.
And you report and we'll go tothat slide now you report that
more than 85,000 youth havemoved towards Christianity
between 2016 and 2021.
And I mean we want to celebratethose 85,000 moving against the
peer group, but it issignificant that it's a
significant drop from 124,000 15years ago.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Exactly, and just think about that.
And alarming really Well, yes,it's harder to see that shift.
I mean good numbers and greatto see.
But just think for a moment in2006,.
Of all of the young people andthis is 15 to 24-year-olds who
said no religion, 19% of one infive had moved to Christianity
five years later.
That's the numbers.
(21:37):
Nowadays it's only 8%, butstill 8% of the total young
people no religion five years on, ticked Christianity on the box
.
So there is a movement from noreligion to Christianity.
It's declining, so I shouldn'tthink the no religions are not
winnable 8% of them are winnableIn a five-year period and
(21:58):
that's tens of thousands ofpeople.
So these are big numbers andthese are young people.
Now keep in mind that if youngpeople are moving across to
Christianity, that's significantbecause young people are the
least likely to say Christianityon the census form, and so to
move to Christianity again, it'sa genuine decision.
If you look at 25-year-olds 25to 29, that's where it really
drops the lowest proportionsaying Christianity so
(22:21):
nationally it was 44%.
For 25-year-olds it's 22% aresaying Christianity so well
below the national average.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Okay, but the under 24-year-olds and this is the
next slide for us are super opento spiritual conversations.
Tell us about this super opento spiritual conversations.
Well, 51, this is Gen Z, 54,gen Y how does that?
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And this is the percent that say extremely or
very open to having a spiritualconversation involving different
views than my own.
So keep in mind that more thanthree in four of these are not
taking Christianity, so they'remost likely no religion.
They may be another religionand yet more than half of them
are saying hey, I'm open tohaving the chat, I'm open to
spiritual conversations, not somuch the older people and why.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Let's just think I'm prepared to say I'm a no
religion and so I'm not offendedthat you call me a no religion,
and I'm prepared to have the.
This is one in two people atwork are prepared to have that
conversation with me, exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
The old truism about don't talk politics and religion
doesn't apply to young people,doesn't apply to the Gen Z, gen
Y, exactly.
And so again, that's anothersign of fruit here.
So we're seeing them move fromno religion to Christianity,
we're seeing them be open tohaving these spiritual
conversations and we're seeingbig numbers genuinely, if
they've ticked Christianity, arepractising that through church
(23:52):
attendance.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
About dropping out of church, I was.
I mean, I read this point onyour report about why people
drop out of church and honestlyI thought I'm kidding myself do
you know?
But I think there's a spiritualdiagnosis to do on this answer.
(24:16):
But let's take it on face valuefirst, and then we'll see what
you think of the spiritualdiagnosis.
Tell us what's going on here.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Well, people move to Christianity for those personal
reasons.
We discussed purpose, meaningbelonging, spiritual connection.
People move away fromChristianity for the social
context, for how the church isperceived for the institution.
I felt disappointed in thechurch due to a lack of
accountability, hypocrisy ordishonesty or number three.
There I became disillusionedwith how Christianity is
practiced or represented by itsleaders or institutions.
(24:45):
So there's a large proportionthat are looking at that public
context of the church.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Now somebody might say of me, when I say what I'm
about to say, that I'm notprepared to face reality.
But those answers are all theperson who's just left the
church saying the problem iswith the church.
They're not actually saying theproblem is with me.
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I don't want to be sexually celibate, or I don't
want to be submissive to analmighty.
I want to be submissive to analmighty, I want to run my own
life and so.
But I'm not prepared toactually say the problem is me.
So I'm throwing bricks at you,saying the problem is you.
(25:32):
Now tell me where I'm wrong.
No, that's true.
I mean, was that question putto them?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
No, I mean people take an institutional view.
When they think Christianity,they're thinking about brand
church, they're thinking aboutthe institution they think about
the religious structures andthat's what they're pushing back
on when it comes to their owninvestigation of Christianity.
It's more about that personalyearning for the metaphysical
(25:58):
problems in their life andthat's what brings them to faith
.
So coming to Christianity is afaith journey in a more personal
way, moving from Christianitythat is no longer ticking that
box.
I've had enough, I'm not goingto tick it anymore.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I don't believe it anymore comes about because of
this social context, because Iwas trying to think about the
people who've left our church.
And some people who've left ourchurch have gone to the next
door church and and at thatpoint you'd say, well, the
problem is us.
You know others have left ourchurch, really to leave
(26:30):
christian faith, and as I'vethought about those people, it's
it's either been in my, from myperspective, it's either been
from my perspective.
It's either been something wasmore important to them really
it's always been something wasmore important to them than God
whether it's career is moreimportant to them than God or
sex, on their terms, is moreimportant to them than God.
(26:52):
But that would be my diagnosisas the person who's been left
behind, whereas their diagnosisas the person who's done the
leaving is completely different.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Yeah, well, there's a sense of they're calling it
hypocrisy.
Maybe there's a sense ofhypocrisy in their own lives,
just sort of not wanting to, youknow, putting perhaps the blame
on others.
But it does show how theperception of Christianity is
governed by the public mood, themedia scandals, those sorts of
things.
And you know it's a goodreminder if we're looking for
(27:24):
applications to be different tothat.
And you know, we found in thisresearch that Australians have a
problem with institutionalreligion.
They don't have a problem withthe local church.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I mean that is interesting.
We've definitely picked that up, that I like you.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yes, that's right.
I like my church, that's right.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
The one that I don't go to.
Yes, yeah, but it is doing kindof a good thing 300 metres away
.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Four in five Australians say the local church
in their area is doing greatthings in their community.
So they see it.
They don't go, but they see, oh, they're doing great hours.
As for institutional church orthe structures of the church or
whatever, well, aussies arealways pushed back on any of
these sorts of things.
Are we post-religion?
We're probably justpost-institutional in all its
forms.
But I think when we're sharingthe gospel or talking about the
(28:11):
issues of faith, it is more inthat understanding of christ and
understanding of this person'scontext, and that's the terrain
in which they're open to havingthose spiritual discussions.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
So as you advise ministers.
What strategic changes are youencouraging us to make in the
light of this report?
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Firstly, to be aware of the data and the demographics
here and opportunities to justmake sure we've got ministry
opportunities there, I think.
Secondly, to involve youngpeople in some of this ministry
outreach.
As we saw, young people areopen to having the conversations
.
Let's get young people in thechurch engaged in that.
Is it that young people aren'tcoming along to our events or is
(28:53):
it that we're just not invitingthem Because this data seems to
point out that they're open forthe conversation and even
attendance?
It's probably on us if they'renot.
I'd also say and obviously wediscussed older Australian
ministry and opportunities thereI think it's about being
genuine and admitting that therehave been problems in the
(29:15):
church and institutionalreligion, how it's perceived,
and that clearly is one of thebig belief blockers for
Australians that cause them tofold their arms, as it is, as it
were, and to say no more.
But if we can understand thatthere is warmth towards
Christians, that they know toChrist and to the local church,
that's probably the terrain onwhich we can stand and be
(29:35):
examples and engage.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Mark, thank you so much for coming in and talking
to us on the Pastors Heart.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Dominic Mark McCrindle's been my guest and of
course he's from mccrindlecomsocial research company and
that's been super helpful for usand we're very grateful and
we'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon
on the Pastors Heart.
it is the pastor's heart and dominic steel.
And how should ministrystrategies change in the light
of a new report into changes andtrends in religious affiliation
in australian society?
Mark mccrindle is with us today.
He's compiled a major newreport, an Undercurrent of Faith
.
What advice does Mark MacRindlehave for us as church leaders
(00:29):
today?
An overview on the changes inreligious affiliation in
Australian society.
Several big findings.
Those turning to Christianfaith are not who we might
expect.
It's especially older people,the recently widowed, the
recently separated and divorced,especially older people, the
recently widowed, the recentlyseparated and divorced.
Outer suburbia and regionalareas is where the move is on
(00:50):
away from Christian identity andthe top reasons that people
move towards and away fromChristian faith.
Australians are still turningto Christianity in significant
numbers, but that's despite adecline in Christian affiliation
, while 85,000 15 to 24 yearolds have moved towards
(01:10):
Christianity in recent years.
That's actually dramaticallydown on a decade ago and more
young Christians are movingtowards no religion and
significantly, there is a searchfor purpose and meaning.
And the report asks is Australianow post-Christian or
post-secular?
Mark McRindle, thanks forcoming in.
(01:32):
Let's start with your pastor'sheart.
I mean, you're not a pastor,you're a researcher, but you are
significantly involved in yourlocal church and concerned for
Australians to know and trustand love the Lord Jesus.
As you've taken this step backfrom the Australian church scene
and looked at what's going on,what's it done to your heart?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I think there's great cause for encouragement with
some of this data.
You know we can sometimes toilaway and feel it's hard soil and
we can't see fruit and thetimes are headed in one
direction, that's away fromChristianity, towards more
secularism, away from the church.
But it was encouraging to seethis, to see, sure, there is
that major trend, but there arecountertrends, there are
(02:11):
undercurrents.
I found that excellent and justeven with youth, young adults
and young people, there's somevibrant spots that we're seeing
and some great encouragement asyoung people in a very secular
culture and materialistic worldare looking for substance,
meaning and purpose and many arefinding that in Christianity.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Let's go big picture first.
And there is an overall drop inpeople identifying as
Christians in the Australiancensus.
But and we'll put this up onthe screen here your report says
there's an increase in peopleattending church.
Now I'm a bit sceptical, butgive me the thesis.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah well, firstly, you know that big headline
figure there I mean to drop in10 years.
That's three census periods but10 years in time.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
From 61 to 44.
61, that's millions of people.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
That's national.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
That's kind of affiliation of I am a Christian
or I'm a no religion.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Exactly that's the census question.
It's an optional question.
Most Australians fill it in andit shows a big move to no
religion, not so much fromChristianity to other religions.
But yes, what we're trying topaint here is that, look,
there's more to that story andthere's not just the shift to no
Christianity, from Christianityto no religion.
(03:29):
There's a shift back the otherway, and we pick that up in the
report.
But also this data on churchattendance is quite encouraging.
Every year that the census isconducted in Australia, the
National Church Life Surveyconduct a study of those in the
pews and their data looks at theproportion of Australians who
attend church once a month ormore is the definition, and so
(03:50):
you can see that it's largelyremained stable.
Most recent year of 2021, itwent up significantly.
A slight methodology changethere, where they include people
who attend church via online,not just turning up who attend
church via online, not justturning up?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Have they given you the breakdown between the
in-person attendance and theonline attendance?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
They do have that data as well.
Yeah, and it's certainly a fewpercentage points is the online
only, so it's probably not toomuch different, because I'm
sceptical here because I mean,we're thinking 2021,.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
That was the time of lockdown too.
I know our attendance was amess in 2000, and I don't think
we were different to any of ourfriends.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Well, 2021 was even the census was conducted in some
of the lockdowns, so it was afraught year.
I think anything with a 2020 or2021 date has an asterisk
beside it, so I think we need tokeep that in mind as well.
But regardless of whether it'sa couple of percentage points
below what it's recording, itshows relatively stable church
attendance in Australia amidstdeclining Christianity
(05:01):
identification.
So that tells us that, whilecultural Christianity is
dissipating and people aren'tgoing to tick that box because
of some heritage, history orcultural connection that is the
Christianity box those that aregenuine in their faith and in
their Christianity are stillattending church and there's no
real change there.
So there might be within thetotal Christianity.
(05:23):
There's certainly a culturalChristianity and there's a
genuine Christianity, and it'snot as though the genuine
Christianity is dropping in thesame way culturally.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Let's have a look at the Sydney Anglicans attendance
report over the last 10 yearsand those of you watching will
be able to see that Mark hasbetter graphic designers on his
team because I've got your graphon the left and the Sydney
Anglicans on the right, and Imean one of the Pentecostal
leaders that I was talking to.
when I told him that theAnglicans had gone down 7%, he
(05:51):
said actually that's a fantasticresult in that season, because
his experience in thePentecostal tribe was that
they'd gone down significantlymore.
So how do you put those twographs together?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, well, I think the big one is the big reason
for the difference is includingonline.
I mean, it would be the same ifwe say who goes to the office
versus who goes to work.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah, going to work is digital.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
For many people, hybrid is the mainstream, and I
think that's true of even somesocial gathering, it's true of
training and education, where itcan be done in a hybrid way,
and it's true, therefore, ofchurch.
So you are getting a lot morepeople just sort of resting back
on the digital option.
Even if they're still turningup on occasion, they probably
(06:37):
aren't making the regular churchcategory, which is at least
monthly in the building, butmaybe with the online that's
what gets them there.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
And that's going to have an impact on, if you like.
But I mean, people tune intoour service and I don't know who
they are and in terms of and Idon't think they're giving to us
and you know, and they're noton one of the ministry teams,
perhaps a little bit they are inthat some people might tune
into us when they're on holidaysor away for a weekend or
(07:07):
something like that, but overallthat commitment's not the same.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I think that's right, Dominic, and it's
important, I think, to remindChristians of that requirement
to not give up meeting together.
And yet, you know, we're in anera where it's not just online
church, but people have anynumber of preachers that they
can go to, or other what mightbe spiritual support apps and
other things.
They say you know what I'mgetting my church or my
(07:31):
spiritual input through theseapps?
I don't need to be part ofchurch anymore.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
And part of the problem there is it's a DIY
faith rather than actually I'mbeing held to account by a
prophet of God.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Now let's go to this next slide on Christian or
people moving from no religionto Christianity.
Beneath the headline figures,there's a steady stream of
people, and so this is thecountercultural trend that you
were talking about.
Tell me about that?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Well, first thing to say is that the definition of
religion, or how someone fillsthe census box, in particularly
around Christianity, has changed.
So people used to tick and infact the census question lies
right in the midst of culturequestions what's your ancestry?
Where were your parents born?
What language do you speak athome?
What's your religion?
Because when the census was puttogether, and pretty much for
(08:22):
most of the last century, that'show you fill in the religion
question.
Well, I'm born in Britain, soit's Church of England or it's
Anglican and so being, butactually that's changed now.
We surveyed Australians.
We said how do you fill it in?
And the majority of Australianssaid they fill the religion
question in based on theircurrent belief and active
(08:42):
practice.
And if they don't currentlybelieve the tenets of
Christianity and they're notactively practicing it, then
they're not ticking that box.
And so that's one reason we'veseen the decline is cultural.
Christianity is no longersomething that people go for.
If they're choosingChristianity, it's a real… it's.
I believe it Exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Or it's more, I believe it.
We're washing out the nominals.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Exactly.
There's something substantialin that, and that's why these
figures 800,000 almost in 2016,who said no religion have come
across to Christianity.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
So you think the 880 there back in 2006 is more
likely to be a higher nominalpercentage, whereas the 784 in
2021 is more likely to be a realfaith group.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Well, I wouldn't discriminate too much.
I mean the trend has been overthe last few decades.
So if people, particularly ifthey were no religion, then
clearly it's not history orheritage.
No, no, no, they're in the noreligion category and now
they're saying Christianity,that's close to conversion, or
certainly taking thatChristianity seriously, yeah,
yeah, that's significant, isn'tit?
And so you know 800,000, I mean,that's 2.4 million people over
(09:49):
that period of time that havegone from no religion to
Christianity in a time when theframe defining Christianity,
defining your faith, is moretightly held.
Let's go to geography.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
And I was very interested because I was part of
the committee in Sydney thatlooked at the geographic changes
in church attendance here, andthere's something going on on
the national picture of changesin church attendance based on,
well, how close you are to thecity and how far away.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Let's start with the national picture and you Sure
Well you've got this lower andstraight one there, which is the
inner cities.
Well, you've got inner citiesand capital cities running along
the bottom there, where you'vegot inner cities and capital
cities running along the bottomthere.
In other words, they have hadthe they've been sort of the
most stable.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
So where we are right in the inner city of Sydney now
, there has been a move away,but it's not been as rapid as
the move away in either theregional, the outer suburbia or
the regional Exactly, and that'sthis line that starts at the
very bottom and goes up to thetop.
And that's spectacular, isn'tit?
(11:02):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
So what's happened over the last five years
particularly is that a lot ofgeographies have changed in
Australia.
Forty per cent of thepopulation in Australia now live
at a new address.
Compared to the previous census, that's more than 10 million
australians, and a lot of themovement has not just been from
this suburb to that suburb, butfrom this city to this regional
area or from this outer suburbanarea to this, uh, outer
(11:23):
regional area, and so a lot ofthe inner city has been moving
to your regions or or otherareas for cost of living
purposes, and if you candecouple work from location, hey
, they can keep their inner cityjob, but work it maybe from a
region.
And so the result is that theproportion that used to be the
lowest in terms of moving to noreligion from Christianity has
(11:45):
now become the highest, because,in relative terms, these
regional and remote areas arerelatively small.
You've got a lot of city peoplecoming in, bringing their no
religion with them in that sense.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
So you think it's primarily to do with people
moving house, rather, and, ifyou like, what was the upstream
flowing into the downstream?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That's right, correct , and it's demographic change.
It's the internal migrationpeople from the cities moving to
regional areas, changing thenature of those areas that used
to have a slightly higherreligion category.
The other thing that's happenedyou have a higher Christianity
count when you've got an olderpopulation, but what's happening
at the moment with this seachange and tree change is that a
(12:28):
lot of people making the moveare the young couples and the
young families and they alsohave a lower Christianity count.
So, yes, as the cities move tothe regions, we're getting some
of those regions look a littlebit more like the inner cities
in terms of higher, no religioncount.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Let's go to this next graph, and this one is the one
from the Sydney Anglicans.
That's a, if you like, acompare and contrast, and the
two ones that I wanted to drawyour attention to are the blue
line, which is the increase inthe no religions, and then the
brown line, which is theProtestant affiliation.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Now we can see that South Sydney, which is inner
Sydney, has only had really aminus 5%.
Southwestern Sydney a minus 5%.
Interestingly sorry, this isminus 5 on the nuns.
You know, yes, interestinglywhereas you go to Wollongong big
(13:23):
increase in the no religionsand you know Western Sydney.
So it's out in Wollongong, inthe region, that we've had the
big increase in the no religion,whereas the Protestant
affiliation hasn't changed atall much in the inner city but
it's over here in the Wollongong, western Sydney and Northern.
(13:46):
So that actually fits with yournational picture, I think.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yes, that's right, exactly.
You know also the people movingto the regional areas where
you've got a lot more housing,going in, young families looking
, young couples looking to startlife, they're also making lots
of other changes.
If they're moving locations,they're saying, well, you know
what that church, we're part ofthat Christianity, or you know
that history, we're going tocarve our own pathway out.
(14:11):
So you do get a bit of changein religious persuasion.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I mean it does say to you, doesn't it, that I ought
to be on the lookout for peoplemoving into my area, you know,
and thinking, how can I pick upthese new people?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah Well, you mentioned at the start, Dominic,
that where you see peoplemoving to Christianity above the
average are those moving to anew address, those widowed and
single.
They also are moving away fromChristianity at above average
rates.
Really, they're in both camps,they're in both categories
moving to and moving from.
In other words, when there's amajor life change, whether that
(14:42):
be changing address, movinglocation, changing family
situation, people will move tofaith and people will move away
from faith, depending on wherethey're at in their approach.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
We've been running divorce care here for 18 years
or something like that, and Iwould say our course Introducing
God has been perhaps the majorflow of people into this church,
but our second major flow wouldbe the divorce care course.
So when I saw that you weresaying the recently divorced was
(15:18):
particularly open to Christianfaith, I thought, ah, that rings
true for me.
And then I thought what do I doto help our church appeal to
the recently widowed, thebereaving?
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yes, yes, help our church.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
appeal to the recently widow the bereaving and
I thought there's a strategyquestion for us to have staff
team discussions on.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Well, it's important because that's when people are
thinking about those things inlife which we found are the most
likely to bring people toChristianity from no religion
searching for purpose, meaning,belonging and connection,
looking for spiritual answers inlife and of course, we seek
most deeply when there's painmeaning belonging and connection
.
Looking for spiritual answersin life, and of course, we seek
most deeply when there's pain,hurt, relational breakdown.
So they're key categories, keytimes to really connect with
(16:00):
that part of the community.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Let's just think, though, also demographics,
because you're saying and we'llput this up on the slide here
that increasing numbers of olderAustralians are moving towards
Christian faith.
That surprised me, because, inmy sense, the baby boomers
(16:23):
people a little bit older thanme are pretty hardened, pretty
tough, pretty set in their ways,and yet.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yet when they get to that life stage stage maybe it's
looking after an elderly parentand seeing them through health
challenges or or death, um,maybe it's, uh, seeing the
grandchild come along, startingto think about the future and
purpose, or maybe their ownlifestyle and life stages and
health issues you start to thinkabout mortality, life, the
future and eternity, and sothat's one of the factors that
(16:52):
do get older people to reflecton what they believe.
Now, keep in mind, these 55-plusthat are above average moving
from no religion to Christianityare also those who have most
likely had an early Christianityexperience.
They went to Scripture as kids,exactly, they left it.
It wasn't for them theinstitution or church problems
they had, whatever it was, theymoved away.
(17:13):
But there's somehow evidentlybeen a seed planted in many of
them and they, at the later endof life, start to look back to
that.
In fact, the proportion offormer Christians coming back to
faith so census longitudinallytallies this, it's quite
interesting has been increasingfive years by five years.
There's more people who were aChristian moved away and now are
(17:34):
saying Christianity again.
That's a growing group, andparticularly in the older.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So if we think about the National Church Life Survey,
there's hope for thosereturners, if you like, and
potentially to see an increasein returners.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, exactly One in five of those who sits in the
pews of a church made a decisionfor the faith as adults.
So do you?
Speaker 1 (17:53):
think what would you be saying if you were giving a
consultation for church leaders,which in fact you are doing
right?
Now what do you think we shouldbe thinking strategically?
I mean about older people.
Should we think, ah, we haven'tgot an older people's service,
Should we have one?
That kind of thing?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
You know, clearly Australia andmost ministries around the
world put their energies intochildren's and youth ministry
and I think that's veryappropriate and there's data in
this to show that there are goodnumbers of young people moving
from no religion to Christianity, which for young people
definitely seems like it is aconversion.
(18:32):
It is a true faith, becausethey're not doing it to get in
line with the broader culture.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
No, no, no, we're against cult.
Exactly, they're not runningwith the peer group pressure.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Definitely.
But if you look at the aboveaverage movements and where the
peak is, it's in the oldercategories and I think we don't
naturally have ministries thereand we need to, particularly
because that's where thepopulation growth is.
People are living longer andthere's great opportunity for
ministry.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Let's go to the next slide and I just want you to
give us I mean, you've just toldme really good things about the
growth in the older.
Tell me about the middle-agedand the younger, where it's not
going as well.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Well, with the younger and right through to
middle age we've got peoplemoving away from Christianity at
a faster rate than that.
Population share is growing.
So in fact you can see changein the share of population.
We've got an ageing population.
That's why there's growth inthe older age groups and a
slight shrinkage here aspercentage of population.
(19:28):
But the percentage share ofChristianity is dropping in the
younger age groups at a fasterrate.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
What does it mean, though, if I go to the next
slide, that you're saying thatthe well?
I'm just interested with thebaby boomers here that they're
less likely percentage-wise.
I mean, there might be more ofthem and more of them turning to
Christian faith, but of theones who turn to Christian faith
, they're the ones who are notgoing to church.
(19:53):
No, just a correction.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
This is the total population who says Christianity
is their religion, right, byage group and now, whether they
attend church regularly, right.
So in other words, there's alot more baby boomers who tick
Christianity on the census.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
A lot fewer young people tick Christianity, so
there's a bigger nominalpercentage.
Exactly there, a lot feweryoung people tick Christianity,
so there's a bigger nominalpercentage.
There's really 74% nominalsamong the baby boomers, whereas
you're actually saying if I lookover to Gen Z, there's only 32%
who are nominals in Gen Z.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
If a young person, that's exactly right, dominic.
If a young person says my faithis Christianity or I tick
Christianity on the census form,two-thirds of them are at
church.
They're genuine in that faith.
They're practicing that throughregular church attendance and
you know we'd imagine otherChristian practices as well.
So it's a solid number.
When you look at young peoplein Christianity, if they're
moving particularly from noreligion to Christianity, you
(20:46):
can almost guarantee thatthey're backing that up with a
Christian lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Let's stay on that younger person moving towards
Christianity.
And you report and we'll go tothat slide now you report that
more than 85,000 youth havemoved towards Christianity
between 2016 and 2021.
And I mean we want to celebratethose 85,000 moving against the
peer group, but it issignificant that it's a
significant drop from 124,000 15years ago.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Exactly, and just think about that.
And alarming really Well, yes,it's harder to see that shift.
I mean good numbers and greatto see.
But just think for a moment in2006,.
Of all of the young people andthis is 15 to 24-year-olds who
said no religion, 19% of one infive had moved to Christianity
five years later.
That's the numbers.
(21:37):
Nowadays it's only 8%, butstill 8% of the total young
people no religion five years on, ticked Christianity on the box
.
So there is a movement from noreligion to Christianity.
It's declining, so I shouldn'tthink the no religions are not
winnable 8% of them are winnableIn a five-year period and
(21:58):
that's tens of thousands ofpeople.
So these are big numbers andthese are young people.
Now keep in mind that if youngpeople are moving across to
Christianity, that's significantbecause young people are the
least likely to say Christianityon the census form, and so to
move to Christianity again, it'sa genuine decision.
If you look at 25-year-olds 25to 29, that's where it really
drops the lowest proportionsaying Christianity so
(22:21):
nationally it was 44%.
For 25-year-olds it's 22% aresaying Christianity so well
below the national average.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Okay, but the under 24-year-olds and this is the
next slide for us are super opento spiritual conversations.
Tell us about this super opento spiritual conversations.
Well, 51, this is Gen Z, 54,gen Y how does that?
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And this is the percent that say extremely or
very open to having a spiritualconversation involving different
views than my own.
So keep in mind that more thanthree in four of these are not
taking Christianity, so they'remost likely no religion.
They may be another religionand yet more than half of them
are saying hey, I'm open tohaving the chat, I'm open to
spiritual conversations, not somuch the older people and why.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Let's just think I'm prepared to say I'm a no
religion and so I'm not offendedthat you call me a no religion,
and I'm prepared to have the.
This is one in two people atwork are prepared to have that
conversation with me, exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
The old truism about don't talk politics and religion
doesn't apply to young people,doesn't apply to the Gen Z, gen
Y, exactly.
And so again, that's anothersign of fruit here.
So we're seeing them move fromno religion to Christianity,
we're seeing them be open tohaving these spiritual
conversations and we're seeingbig numbers genuinely, if
they've ticked Christianity, arepractising that through church
(23:52):
attendance.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
About dropping out of church, I was.
I mean, I read this point onyour report about why people
drop out of church and honestlyI thought I'm kidding myself do
you know?
But I think there's a spiritualdiagnosis to do on this answer.
(24:16):
But let's take it on face valuefirst, and then we'll see what
you think of the spiritualdiagnosis.
Tell us what's going on here.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Well, people move to Christianity for those personal
reasons.
We discussed purpose, meaningbelonging, spiritual connection.
People move away fromChristianity for the social
context, for how the church isperceived for the institution.
I felt disappointed in thechurch due to a lack of
accountability, hypocrisy ordishonesty or number three.
There I became disillusionedwith how Christianity is
practiced or represented by itsleaders or institutions.
(24:45):
So there's a large proportionthat are looking at that public
context of the church.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Now somebody might say of me, when I say what I'm
about to say, that I'm notprepared to face reality.
But those answers are all theperson who's just left the
church saying the problem iswith the church.
They're not actually saying theproblem is with me.
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I don't want to be sexually celibate, or I don't
want to be submissive to analmighty.
I want to be submissive to analmighty, I want to run my own
life and so.
But I'm not prepared toactually say the problem is me.
So I'm throwing bricks at you,saying the problem is you.
(25:32):
Now tell me where I'm wrong.
No, that's true.
I mean, was that question putto them?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
No, I mean people take an institutional view.
When they think Christianity,they're thinking about brand
church, they're thinking aboutthe institution they think about
the religious structures andthat's what they're pushing back
on when it comes to their owninvestigation of Christianity.
It's more about that personalyearning for the metaphysical
(25:58):
problems in their life andthat's what brings them to faith
.
So coming to Christianity is afaith journey in a more personal
way, moving from Christianitythat is no longer ticking that
box.
I've had enough, I'm not goingto tick it anymore.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I don't believe it anymore comes about because of
this social context, because Iwas trying to think about the
people who've left our church.
And some people who've left ourchurch have gone to the next
door church and and at thatpoint you'd say, well, the
problem is us.
You know others have left ourchurch, really to leave
(26:30):
christian faith, and as I'vethought about those people, it's
it's either been in my, from myperspective, it's either been
from my perspective.
It's either been something wasmore important to them really
it's always been something wasmore important to them than God
whether it's career is moreimportant to them than God or
sex, on their terms, is moreimportant to them than God.
(26:52):
But that would be my diagnosisas the person who's been left
behind, whereas their diagnosisas the person who's done the
leaving is completely different.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Yeah, well, there's a sense of they're calling it
hypocrisy.
Maybe there's a sense ofhypocrisy in their own lives,
just sort of not wanting to, youknow, putting perhaps the blame
on others.
But it does show how theperception of Christianity is
governed by the public mood, themedia scandals, those sorts of
things.
And you know it's a goodreminder if we're looking for
(27:24):
applications to be different tothat.
And you know, we found in thisresearch that Australians have a
problem with institutionalreligion.
They don't have a problem withthe local church.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I mean that is interesting.
We've definitely picked that up, that I like you.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yes, that's right.
I like my church, that's right.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
The one that I don't go to.
Yes, yeah, but it is doing kindof a good thing 300 metres away
.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Four in five Australians say the local church
in their area is doing greatthings in their community.
So they see it.
They don't go, but they see, oh, they're doing great hours.
As for institutional church orthe structures of the church or
whatever, well, aussies arealways pushed back on any of
these sorts of things.
Are we post-religion?
We're probably justpost-institutional in all its
forms.
But I think when we're sharingthe gospel or talking about the
(28:11):
issues of faith, it is more inthat understanding of christ and
understanding of this person'scontext, and that's the terrain
in which they're open to havingthose spiritual discussions.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
So as you advise ministers.
What strategic changes are youencouraging us to make in the
light of this report?
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Firstly, to be aware of the data and the demographics
here and opportunities to justmake sure we've got ministry
opportunities there, I think.
Secondly, to involve youngpeople in some of this ministry
outreach.
As we saw, young people areopen to having the conversations
.
Let's get young people in thechurch engaged in that.
Is it that young people aren'tcoming along to our events or is
(28:53):
it that we're just not invitingthem Because this data seems to
point out that they're open forthe conversation and even
attendance?
It's probably on us if they'renot.
I'd also say and obviously wediscussed older Australian
ministry and opportunities thereI think it's about being
genuine and admitting that therehave been problems in the
(29:15):
church and institutionalreligion, how it's perceived,
and that clearly is one of thebig belief blockers for
Australians that cause them tofold their arms, as it is, as it
were, and to say no more.
But if we can understand thatthere is warmth towards
Christians, that they know toChrist and to the local church,
that's probably the terrain onwhich we can stand and be
(29:35):
examples and engage.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Mark, thank you so much for coming in and talking
to us on the Pastors Heart.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Dominic Mark McCrindle's been my guest and of
course he's from mccrindlecomsocial research company and
that's been super helpful for usand we're very grateful and
we'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon
on the Pastors Heart.
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