March 26, 2025 • 25 mins
Proclamation is for every Christian, one’s Christian faith is always public and a command is not needed to link faith to speech.
'I believed therefore I spoke' - That’s what the Apostle Paul says in 2 Corinthians 4:13. And yet it’s a verse hardly referred to in the last few decades in discussions over who is responsible for evangelism.
Chris Braga of Grace West Anglican Church Sydney told the Nexus Conference in Sydney that 2 Corinthians 4:13 shows that there’s a spiritual reflex that internal faith (in the crucified and resurrected Jesus) will challenge fear and lead to speech.
Not because we’re commanded, but because we can’t help ourselves.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
I believed and therefore I spoke.
That is what the Apostle Paulsays, and Chris Braga drew it to
our attention at the NexusConference in Sydney a week or
so ago and it was one of thosemic drop moments he thought hang
on, that's in the Bible.
Why have I never seen it?
I've preached on that passagebut I've not noticed it before.
Why hadn't I thought about that?
It is the pastor's heart, it'sDominic Steele, and thanks for
(00:31):
joining us.
Chris Braga is with us, seniorpastor of Grace West Anglican
Church in the West of Sydney,and he gave the opening Bible
study at the Nexus Conference,focusing on 2 Corinthians 4,
verse 13.
Now, chris, let's go to yourpastor's heart, and you made the
observation, looking at thispassage, that there's really a
(00:53):
spiritual reflex, that internalfaith in Jesus, his death and
resurrection, which willchallenge fear and lead to
speech.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, dominic, thanks , it's great to be here, and it
was actually verse 15 that gotme first thinking about this
part of the Bible, this more andmore, the more and more,
actually, just thinking aboutour church and the vision of our
church to see more and morepeople transformed by grace, and
just thinking about the gospelgoing out and you're thinking of
Grace West Church.
Absolutely Grace West.
More and more peopleTransformed by grace, and so you
(01:26):
actually then read that versein context.
I've been reading the bitsbefore it.
So you've got this picture ofthe gospel going out, and how
does that happen?
And what's going on in Paul'slife?
And this is what happens whenyou're reading the Bible is you
get a quote from the OldTestament and often you just
skip over it.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Well, skip over it.
I'm embarrassed.
You and I were at a conference10 years ago and I was speaking
on this passage and you werethere.
And I looked at my notes lastnight and I just kind of blurred
through these last few verses.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
It's because there's so much good stuff in 2
Corinthians and I think you know, when you've got a ministry
conference or something, there'sa lot of other places to go,
like chapter 5, there's, youknow, even verses 1 to 12.
There's so much good stuff in 2Corinthians, but verses 13 to
15 is another one of thoseamazing parts of the Scriptures.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
So give us verse 13.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Okay, verse 13.
What's going on there is Paul'soutlining a principle which is
just that faith leads to speech.
There's this direct connectionbetween the two.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
I'm just going to read it.
Yeah, it is written.
I believed.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
therefore, I have spoken Since we have that same
spirit of faith.
We also believe and thereforespeak.
Paul has the same experience asthe psalmist and Paul's quoting
from Psalm 116, verse 10.
And for the psalmist it'salmost this throwaway line.
(02:56):
He's going through a reallydifficult time and he says I
believed when I spoke.
We'll put that up on the screenI believed when I spoke.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
We'll put that up on the screen.
I believed when I spoke.
I trusted in the Lord when Isaid.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, it's just a temporal picture of what's going
on, but then Paul quotes it andunderlying that kind of
temporal experience for thepsalmist is this logical
connection.
It's a clear logical connectionin the Greek.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
What's the Greek there?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Epistousa dio illa lesa.
So I believed, therefore Ispoke, and there's this
connection between what's goingon in your inner person and then
what happens as you speak, andit's such a human experience of
what it means.
What's going on in my innerlife takes form as I express it
(03:47):
into the world.
And for the inner life of thebeliever there's so much going
on with the gospel, and so thegospel has just captured Paul's
heart.
You see it in verse 14, thismessage of the resurrection of
Jesus.
So, for we know that the onewho raised the Lord Jesus will
also raise us with Jesus andpresent us with you.
(04:10):
So the resurrection is justwhat's captured.
Paul is his message and hespeaks it, he believes it, he
knows it's going to be powerfulfor the listener to hear, he
knows that his life is secureand so he just speaks.
There's another thing that getsinserted between faith and
speech that kind of enables himto speak.
(04:31):
It's this message of the gospelthat he just is captured by and
then tells others.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Now.
I mean I was preaching onSunday on the Great Commission.
We finished Matthew's gospel,another great passage.
Yeah, we got up to there and gomake disciples and I spoke as
if this was Jesus' command tothis room here and in the
question and comment time thatfollowed, somebody said how can
(05:00):
you be sure that this is notjust Paul speaking to the 12, to
that generation?
What makes you think he'sspeaking to 21st century people
all these years later?
Now I found myself going to 2Corinthians 4.13, because you
taught it to me just a few daysago, but there has been debate
(05:21):
and discussion over this thosecommands in the New Testament,
like the Great Commission andwhether or not they do apply to
us, but this reallyshort-circuits all of that,
doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, it does.
And look, even the GreatCommission is based on a
faith-based response.
That is all.
Authority in heaven and earthhas been given to me.
Therefore, go and makedisciples If you don't believe
that Jesus is the one who rulesover the world you're not going
to go, and has all authority.
Jesus is the one who rules overthe world.
You're not going to haveauthority.
Yeah, it's because of that thatyou go, and so it does have
(05:56):
elements of command, but it's inthe context of this faith-based
response, and certainly theconversation, and you kind of
can boil the Christian life downto commands you could look at
it that way but it actuallydevoids the whole experience of
what it means to be expansive inyour Christian life, to think
about virtue, to think about howyou respond to God in an
(06:17):
expansive manner, and frequentlyin the New Testament what we
see is people's response is ofthis expansive view of speaking,
of speaking about Jesus, andcertainly this direct connection
means we don't have to findanother connection, we don't
have to find a command.
The experience of beingChristian is one where your
inner life is just filled withJesus, and so therefore, it
(06:40):
shows itself in what you have tosay.
Now what?
Speaker 1 (06:42):
surprised me was that you showed us that you'd gone
and checked the various missiontextbooks that we've looked to
over the last couple of decades,and 2 Corinthians 4.13 is not
there in the end notes.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Look, I'm surprised and since giving the talk at
Nexus I've found out some othersthat have, and that's great
because obviously it's been astretch, but let's go through
the big ones, the big ones.
Peter O'Brien.
Peter O'Brien Peter O'Brien'srelatively short book.
It was first published asConsumed by Passion, I think it
was called, but Gospel andMission in the Writings of Paul.
He doesn't mention it.
John Dixon John Dixon, quite asubstantial work based on his
(07:21):
PhD.
His PhD yeah, doesn't mention it.
We've got Longnecker,longnecker and I'm just going
through the Moore CollegeLibrary and I'm thinking these
guys, they're not referring tothis passage.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
The Father of the New Perspective EP Sanders Doesn't
refer to it Kosten, berger andO'Brien Salvation to the Ends of
the Earth.
Which?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
is trying to do a different kind of work across
the whole Scripture, so it's aharder thing to deal with
everything, yep.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Missionary Paul theologian.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
You'd think it would be in there, which it is, but
those few verses don't actuallyoutline the principle that's
been to.
This principle of faith leadsto speech, gospel to the nations
.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
There's a chapter in there.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
You'd expect it to be in there and about the theology
of Paul from 2 Corinthians, butit's not referred to In those
verses, it's not discussed.
And early Christian missionyeah, this one was surprising.
It's two great big volumes andthere is a discussion in there
on this passage.
But there are six points thathe makes and none of them relate
to verse 13.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You then looked at ten popular mission books yeah,
piper Little Packer, johnChapman, the Gospel and Personal
Evangelism, the Sam Chan onethat came out a couple of years
ago, john Dixon, again RichardKoken, rebecca Manley-Pippitt
and Rico Tice.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
And Look, there's lots of parts of the Bible.
You don't have to look at 2Corinthians 4.13.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, and I never had before either.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
But you know, I think what's interesting is that the
argument that's been I've lookedat other bits of 2 Corinthians
4, but not that.
The argument has been oh, thelogic of the gospel says you
know, you should speak about it.
And a lot of these books willhave a section about who is
evangelism for, and it's foreveryone because of the logic of
the gospel.
And they're actually goingthrough what Paul is doing in 2
(09:06):
Corinthians 4.13, but they'renot making it explicit, whereas
2 Corinthians 4.13, it has it ona plate.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yes, so many times we've gone to.
Is there a command forevangelism rather than does it
flow?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
out of my trust.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And Paul's saying it flows outof that experience of faith.
There's a great quote fromCalvin in his commentary.
Well, let's go to thecommentaries.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
You were checking Harris and Calvin, so let's go
Calvin first.
What does Calvin?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
say, yeah, calvin's got this great quote.
I think Calvin describes thingsthis way quite regularly, so
there's nothing unique in onesense.
But he describes faith as themother of confession.
That is, confession.
Speech about Jesus is going tobe something that is given birth
by faith.
It comes out of faith, and soCalvin summarises the verse and
(10:04):
the concept that way MurrayHarris, murray Harris, so faith
leads to speech is directlylifted from his commentary.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Summarises the verse and the concept that way.
Murray Harris, murray Harris,two Corinthians commentator.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Faith leads to speech is directly lifted from his
commentary.
So I'm not claiming anythingoriginal, I'm literally just
working my way through some ofthe commentaries.
Excellent commentary on TwoCorinthians, and he identifies
this as not just Paul's having asimilar experience to the
psalmist, but that thisprinciple is what Paul is
focusing on, this theologicalprinciple that faith leads to
(10:32):
speech.
And that comes from Murray.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Harris, and you did find it in a couple of popular
level books, gibbs, I think yousaid yeah, so I found it in.
And then this other one fromthe Central Coast.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, so a more recent work, but Gibbs 1973,
just a little line, and that aconfident I'm sorry, a firm
conviction produces a plainconfession, and so he's basing
that on 2 Corinthians 4.13 as anencouragement for evangelism.
And a more recent work, andit's something that's been drawn
(11:10):
to my attention the last coupleof weeks and I'm trying to
think of the name of the bookBelieving Out Loud.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Kevin Simpkin.
Oh, kevin, okay, thank you.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
And you know I need to have a look at that book, but
it's something that hasn'tinformed our conversation here
in Sydney really for the last.
You know I need to have a lookat that book, but it's something
that hasn't informed ourconversation here in Sydney
really for the last, you know,20-odd years.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
And so really, I mean , this was the big surprise to
me and I love it when you say ah, that's a correction to my
understanding of God.
And I've been going along andhere is a whole.
I mean, as you say, it wasimplicit there.
(11:56):
I thought it was in thescriptures, I thought it was the
heartbeat of God, but now I'vegot a verse that says it's the
heartbeat of God that I hadn'tnoticed before.
And that's been missing from myknowledge of God until the last
fortnight.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I think the challenge and this is quite confronting
is that I became a Christianwhen I was 16 and you think, oh,
I trust Jesus, but the wholeChristian life is trusting God
and trusting God in a newsituation.
So what does it look like totrust God when you have really
bad medical news comes to you?
(12:32):
Am I going to trust God there?
Or a relationship's failing amI going to trust God there?
Or a kid's gone off the railsam I going to trust God there?
When it comes to speaking aboutJesus, we all know that
experience where I should havesaid something but I kept my
mouth shut because I fearedsomething.
I didn't want to be rejected,my job was in jeopardy, I didn't
(12:56):
want to stick out, I didn't youknow there was a risk, and so I
kept my mouth shut about Jesus.
And courage is not the absenceof fear, it's realising there's
something bigger than the fearthat I have, and that experience
of balking back is saying well,I don't trust Jesus enough to
(13:16):
actually say something about it.
And Paul, regularly, what he didwas he saw, it was just
captured by this message of theforgiveness of sins, the hope of
heaven, the resurrection, andso, in spite of incredible
opposition and incrediblepersecution.
He just kept speaking aboutJesus.
I mean, people thought he wascrazy.
You know what I mean, agrippaand Festus, you know you're out
(13:38):
of your mind, paul.
You're trying to persuade us tobecome a Christian and he just
was so captured by this, and Ithink that that's the challenge
is, this is an opportunityactually for Christian growth.
This fear.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
And like am I going to say something about Jesus or
not?
I mean, I guess that's thepoint, isn't it?
What about when I'm Christian?
I'm struggling to speak becauseI am frightened.
How do I?
What's the challenge to methere from 2 Corinthians 4.13?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah, it's not, and we're not talking about
strategically working out whatthe right time to say is, or
something like that, but there'sjust times when your fear
trumps your faith, and so youpray that God would give you the
strength to say something andyou say the thing.
And that's going to meandifferent things for different
(14:29):
people in different contexts,but it's a faith-growing
exercise at that moment, and weall know those moments yeah,
implications.
I shared a bunch of implicationsat Nexus.
There are a few others I had,but the first one was that
(14:51):
evangelism is for everyone,because we're all people of
faith.
Christians are people of faith,and so the idea that we all
have opportunities to speakabout Jesus and that's a natural
thing.
It's not a command thing, as itwere, but it's.
You know, you love Jesus, youlove people, and if you are
someone that trusts, you're nowsomeone that speaks.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Now, when you say evangelism is for everyone,
you're not just sayingevangelism I'm cooking the meal
for the evangelistic dinner.
Evangelism I'm paying the moneyto pay for the evangelist.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
You're saying evangelism for everyone speaking
, speaking something about Jesusand speaking something about
the faith, it will lookdifferent in a whole bunch of
different ways, just evenletting people know that you're
a Christian and having anopinion about Christ or an
explanation of why you're doingthings because you trust Jesus.
(15:45):
There's going to be thoseopportunities to actually link
the things you're doing in lifeto who Jesus is and what he's
done.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Now you are at this point pushing into and pushing
against the PhD thesis of JohnDixon.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah, there's an element of John's work which was
really trying to, I think,identify if there's a command
for Christians to evangelise and, in one sense, wanting to not
burden people with things theyshouldn't be burdened with and I
respect that.
You know the Pharisees burdenedpeople with laws that they
shouldn't and, you know, didn'tlift a finger.
(16:23):
And so John's conclusion wasthat, as he looked, he saw that
there wasn't even a minor dutyplaced upon the believer to
share the gospel.
I think we've got the quote upthere.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
I'll read it to you.
Contrary to the conclusions ofPT O'Brien et al, the
proclamation of the gospel neverappears as even a minor duty of
Paul's converts.
Paul usually portrayedbelievers as passive in relation
to the preaching of the gospel.
They were those who had merelyreceived the message and now
(16:58):
obliged to live in faithfulness,ethically or confessionally to
it.
That's page 311.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah, and there's some truth to that that if you
are looking for a command,you're looking for that sense of
duty.
There isn't one, and I thinkwhat I said at Nexus was that
because it's the wrong category.
The category that's describedin verse 13 is this category of
faith, of faith leading tospeech, of being so captured by
Jesus that there's a naturalelement of just.
(17:27):
It leads to what you talk about.
If you're passionate aboutsomething, you talk about it and
that's the character thisbelief category is.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
it's more Well, it kind of transcends something
that I do.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
It's now outside the realm of command.
So if you're looking for acommand, you won't find one
because it's the wrong categoryfor thinking about it, the
category of faith leading tospeech.
It doesn't require a command.
You're so captured by thegospel, captured by who Jesus is
, that it's the natural thing todo to speak about him.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Next implication Christianity is always public.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, it means that we, you know, as people of faith
, we don't shut up about it.
We're the kind of people thatlove to tell other people about
the message, despite theopposition, despite the
difficulty, despite thechallenge, despite the personal
cost and sacrifice.
And so to be Christian andclaim to be Christian and then
not speak about Jesus is justseen as an oddity in the New
(18:30):
Testament.
You know, to be Christian is tobe someone who's captured by
this message and wanting toshare it with others.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I mean you had some implications there for Christian
organisations, old sandstoneschools, those kind of places.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, I think there's a temptation to say look,
there's part of the Christianlife which is doing good to
others, that's the fruit of thegospel and we'll just
compartmentalise that off and itmeans we're not expressing what
it means to be Christian inthat experience.
We're just compartmentalisingsocial action or running a
school or running something likethat.
(19:07):
That we need to be not merelymoralistic, but we actually need
to be evangelistic and explainwhy we do what we do.
The reason we educate childrenthis way or the reason we
provide this service orsomething like that, is because
we believe that Jesus is Lord,that he wants us to love others
and he wants to have arelationship with you.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
So it's not just that I do the good thing.
I need to show you that it'sbecause of my faith that I'm
doing this.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, that would be a natural thing to do, to say I'm
a Christian, because I'm aChristian, I want to love you
and look after you, or I want to, you know, kind of educate you
in a particular way.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
And therefore you said and again, this is a bit of
a kind of penny drop moment ifwe're not evangelising, then
actually you're making thecharge that there's a more
foundational problem with ourfaith.
Yeah, that's the challenge, Ithink that's the challenge.
You're making the charge thatthere's a more foundational
problem with our faith.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah, that's the challenge.
I think that's the challenge.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I mean that's controversial.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, yeah, I think that we imagine ourselves to be
grown-up Christians.
We imagine ourselves in theDiocese of Sydney.
Like you know, we're really thefaithful people.
We trust Jesus, we trust theScriptures, but when push comes
to, shove.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
So the bedrock of orthodoxy is not I believe these
things.
The bedrock of orthodoxy is, Ibelieve, and it flows out from
me Well it's a test of faith.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
You know, the whole of life is testing that faith.
You think about 1 Peter, yourfaith refined by fire.
You know, will faith hang on tothe end?
Will you trust God in this new,difficult situation?
You know Job or you know Jesushimself.
He's got to trust Jesus in thisnew situation.
And so, presented with asituation of am I going to be
(20:52):
silent about Jesus or speakabout Jesus?
What am I going to do?
What am I going to do with that?
And is my faith?
How strong is my faith in theLord Jesus?
You know, even if people aregoing to kill me, am I going to
still speak about him?
My family was reading aboutStephen.
I mean, he was just picked toserve tables and here's a guy
with this opportunity to speakand he speaks.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
He doesn't stop, he doesn't, stop, he doesn't stop
In fear.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yeah, that's right.
And so he believes in theresurrection of the dead.
He's confident of what God'sgoing to do, and so he speaks.
It's staggering, it'simpressive, but that's the
character of every Christianperson is that we trust Jesus
with our lives, and so we'llspeak in different ways, but the
idea that this message issomething that others need to
(21:37):
hear as well.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Now it's two weeks since that conference.
What's the feedback interactionyou've had, because 300
ministers heard you that day.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Look, I think that for people it was certainly an
encouragement to think aboutwhat we do as ministers, because
we're in a faith-buildingexercise and really to in one
sense, own that problem ofevangelism.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
And if I want to see my church grow as an
evangelistic place, the keything is actually maturity, a
right understanding of maturityof my people.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Look, the wrong thing to do is to say you should
evangelise more.
That's just putting laws onpeople.
That's putting rules on people.
The thing we need to do is justcapture people's hearts with
just how magnificent Jesus is.
I mean, that's the challenge.
So, as we teach the scriptures,we want people to be captured
by just how wonderful he is, howsecure their life is in Christ,
(22:30):
the significance it means tohave your sins forgiven, to have
a right standing with God allof these things that we teach in
the scriptures.
That people are so capturedwith that that this is just the
defining thing about their livesand they see the need for other
people to hear about that in amassively real way.
That, then, that faith-buildingexercise, is what then equip
(22:55):
people for speaking about him.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Thank you so much for coming in and talking to us,
dominic.
Thank you, chris Braga has beenour guest.
He's the senior pastor of GraceWest Anglican Church in the
west of Sydney.
This has been the Pastor'sHeart.
My name's Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
I believed and therefore I spoke.
That is what the Apostle Paulsays, and Chris Braga drew it to
our attention at the NexusConference in Sydney a week or
so ago and it was one of thosemic drop moments he thought hang
on, that's in the Bible.
Why have I never seen it?
I've preached on that passagebut I've not noticed it before.
Why hadn't I thought about that?
It is the pastor's heart, it'sDominic Steele, and thanks for
(00:31):
joining us.
Chris Braga is with us, seniorpastor of Grace West Anglican
Church in the West of Sydney,and he gave the opening Bible
study at the Nexus Conference,focusing on 2 Corinthians 4,
verse 13.
Now, chris, let's go to yourpastor's heart, and you made the
observation, looking at thispassage, that there's really a
(00:53):
spiritual reflex, that internalfaith in Jesus, his death and
resurrection, which willchallenge fear and lead to
speech.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, dominic, thanks , it's great to be here, and it
was actually verse 15 that gotme first thinking about this
part of the Bible, this more andmore, the more and more,
actually, just thinking aboutour church and the vision of our
church to see more and morepeople transformed by grace, and
just thinking about the gospelgoing out and you're thinking of
Grace West Church.
Absolutely Grace West.
More and more peopleTransformed by grace, and so you
(01:26):
actually then read that versein context.
I've been reading the bitsbefore it.
So you've got this picture ofthe gospel going out, and how
does that happen?
And what's going on in Paul'slife?
And this is what happens whenyou're reading the Bible is you
get a quote from the OldTestament and often you just
skip over it.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Well, skip over it.
I'm embarrassed.
You and I were at a conference10 years ago and I was speaking
on this passage and you werethere.
And I looked at my notes lastnight and I just kind of blurred
through these last few verses.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
It's because there's so much good stuff in 2
Corinthians and I think you know, when you've got a ministry
conference or something, there'sa lot of other places to go,
like chapter 5, there's, youknow, even verses 1 to 12.
There's so much good stuff in 2Corinthians, but verses 13 to
15 is another one of thoseamazing parts of the Scriptures.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
So give us verse 13.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Okay, verse 13.
What's going on there is Paul'soutlining a principle which is
just that faith leads to speech.
There's this direct connectionbetween the two.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
I'm just going to read it.
Yeah, it is written.
I believed.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
therefore, I have spoken Since we have that same
spirit of faith.
We also believe and thereforespeak.
Paul has the same experience asthe psalmist and Paul's quoting
from Psalm 116, verse 10.
And for the psalmist it'salmost this throwaway line.
(02:56):
He's going through a reallydifficult time and he says I
believed when I spoke.
We'll put that up on the screenI believed when I spoke.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
We'll put that up on the screen.
I believed when I spoke.
I trusted in the Lord when Isaid.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, it's just a temporal picture of what's going
on, but then Paul quotes it andunderlying that kind of
temporal experience for thepsalmist is this logical
connection.
It's a clear logical connectionin the Greek.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
What's the Greek there?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Epistousa dio illa lesa.
So I believed, therefore Ispoke, and there's this
connection between what's goingon in your inner person and then
what happens as you speak, andit's such a human experience of
what it means.
What's going on in my innerlife takes form as I express it
(03:47):
into the world.
And for the inner life of thebeliever there's so much going
on with the gospel, and so thegospel has just captured Paul's
heart.
You see it in verse 14, thismessage of the resurrection of
Jesus.
So, for we know that the onewho raised the Lord Jesus will
also raise us with Jesus andpresent us with you.
(04:10):
So the resurrection is justwhat's captured.
Paul is his message and hespeaks it, he believes it, he
knows it's going to be powerfulfor the listener to hear, he
knows that his life is secureand so he just speaks.
There's another thing that getsinserted between faith and
speech that kind of enables himto speak.
(04:31):
It's this message of the gospelthat he just is captured by and
then tells others.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Now.
I mean I was preaching onSunday on the Great Commission.
We finished Matthew's gospel,another great passage.
Yeah, we got up to there and gomake disciples and I spoke as
if this was Jesus' command tothis room here and in the
question and comment time thatfollowed, somebody said how can
(05:00):
you be sure that this is notjust Paul speaking to the 12, to
that generation?
What makes you think he'sspeaking to 21st century people
all these years later?
Now I found myself going to 2Corinthians 4.13, because you
taught it to me just a few daysago, but there has been debate
(05:21):
and discussion over this thosecommands in the New Testament,
like the Great Commission andwhether or not they do apply to
us, but this reallyshort-circuits all of that,
doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, it does.
And look, even the GreatCommission is based on a
faith-based response.
That is all.
Authority in heaven and earthhas been given to me.
Therefore, go and makedisciples If you don't believe
that Jesus is the one who rulesover the world you're not going
to go, and has all authority.
Jesus is the one who rules overthe world.
You're not going to haveauthority.
Yeah, it's because of that thatyou go, and so it does have
(05:56):
elements of command, but it's inthe context of this faith-based
response, and certainly theconversation, and you kind of
can boil the Christian life downto commands you could look at
it that way but it actuallydevoids the whole experience of
what it means to be expansive inyour Christian life, to think
about virtue, to think about howyou respond to God in an
(06:17):
expansive manner, and frequentlyin the New Testament what we
see is people's response is ofthis expansive view of speaking,
of speaking about Jesus, andcertainly this direct connection
means we don't have to findanother connection, we don't
have to find a command.
The experience of beingChristian is one where your
inner life is just filled withJesus, and so therefore, it
(06:40):
shows itself in what you have tosay.
Now what?
Speaker 1 (06:42):
surprised me was that you showed us that you'd gone
and checked the various missiontextbooks that we've looked to
over the last couple of decades,and 2 Corinthians 4.13 is not
there in the end notes.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Look, I'm surprised and since giving the talk at
Nexus I've found out some othersthat have, and that's great
because obviously it's been astretch, but let's go through
the big ones, the big ones.
Peter O'Brien.
Peter O'Brien Peter O'Brien'srelatively short book.
It was first published asConsumed by Passion, I think it
was called, but Gospel andMission in the Writings of Paul.
He doesn't mention it.
John Dixon John Dixon, quite asubstantial work based on his
(07:21):
PhD.
His PhD yeah, doesn't mention it.
We've got Longnecker,longnecker and I'm just going
through the Moore CollegeLibrary and I'm thinking these
guys, they're not referring tothis passage.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
The Father of the New Perspective EP Sanders Doesn't
refer to it Kosten, berger andO'Brien Salvation to the Ends of
the Earth.
Which?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
is trying to do a different kind of work across
the whole Scripture, so it's aharder thing to deal with
everything, yep.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Missionary Paul theologian.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
You'd think it would be in there, which it is, but
those few verses don't actuallyoutline the principle that's
been to.
This principle of faith leadsto speech, gospel to the nations
.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
There's a chapter in there.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
You'd expect it to be in there and about the theology
of Paul from 2 Corinthians, butit's not referred to In those
verses, it's not discussed.
And early Christian missionyeah, this one was surprising.
It's two great big volumes andthere is a discussion in there
on this passage.
But there are six points thathe makes and none of them relate
to verse 13.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You then looked at ten popular mission books yeah,
piper Little Packer, johnChapman, the Gospel and Personal
Evangelism, the Sam Chan onethat came out a couple of years
ago, john Dixon, again RichardKoken, rebecca Manley-Pippitt
and Rico Tice.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
And Look, there's lots of parts of the Bible.
You don't have to look at 2Corinthians 4.13.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, and I never had before either.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
But you know, I think what's interesting is that the
argument that's been I've lookedat other bits of 2 Corinthians
4, but not that.
The argument has been oh, thelogic of the gospel says you
know, you should speak about it.
And a lot of these books willhave a section about who is
evangelism for, and it's foreveryone because of the logic of
the gospel.
And they're actually goingthrough what Paul is doing in 2
(09:06):
Corinthians 4.13, but they'renot making it explicit, whereas
2 Corinthians 4.13, it has it ona plate.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yes, so many times we've gone to.
Is there a command forevangelism rather than does it
flow?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
out of my trust.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And Paul's saying it flows outof that experience of faith.
There's a great quote fromCalvin in his commentary.
Well, let's go to thecommentaries.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
You were checking Harris and Calvin, so let's go
Calvin first.
What does Calvin?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
say, yeah, calvin's got this great quote.
I think Calvin describes thingsthis way quite regularly, so
there's nothing unique in onesense.
But he describes faith as themother of confession.
That is, confession.
Speech about Jesus is going tobe something that is given birth
by faith.
It comes out of faith, and soCalvin summarises the verse and
(10:04):
the concept that way MurrayHarris, murray Harris, so faith
leads to speech is directlylifted from his commentary.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Summarises the verse and the concept that way.
Murray Harris, murray Harris,two Corinthians commentator.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Faith leads to speech is directly lifted from his
commentary.
So I'm not claiming anythingoriginal, I'm literally just
working my way through some ofthe commentaries.
Excellent commentary on TwoCorinthians, and he identifies
this as not just Paul's having asimilar experience to the
psalmist, but that thisprinciple is what Paul is
focusing on, this theologicalprinciple that faith leads to
(10:32):
speech.
And that comes from Murray.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Harris, and you did find it in a couple of popular
level books, gibbs, I think yousaid yeah, so I found it in.
And then this other one fromthe Central Coast.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, so a more recent work, but Gibbs 1973,
just a little line, and that aconfident I'm sorry, a firm
conviction produces a plainconfession, and so he's basing
that on 2 Corinthians 4.13 as anencouragement for evangelism.
And a more recent work, andit's something that's been drawn
(11:10):
to my attention the last coupleof weeks and I'm trying to
think of the name of the bookBelieving Out Loud.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Kevin Simpkin.
Oh, kevin, okay, thank you.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
And you know I need to have a look at that book, but
it's something that hasn'tinformed our conversation here
in Sydney really for the last.
You know I need to have a lookat that book, but it's something
that hasn't informed ourconversation here in Sydney
really for the last, you know,20-odd years.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
And so really, I mean , this was the big surprise to
me and I love it when you say ah, that's a correction to my
understanding of God.
And I've been going along andhere is a whole.
I mean, as you say, it wasimplicit there.
(11:56):
I thought it was in thescriptures, I thought it was the
heartbeat of God, but now I'vegot a verse that says it's the
heartbeat of God that I hadn'tnoticed before.
And that's been missing from myknowledge of God until the last
fortnight.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I think the challenge and this is quite confronting
is that I became a Christianwhen I was 16 and you think, oh,
I trust Jesus, but the wholeChristian life is trusting God
and trusting God in a newsituation.
So what does it look like totrust God when you have really
bad medical news comes to you?
(12:32):
Am I going to trust God there?
Or a relationship's failing amI going to trust God there?
Or a kid's gone off the railsam I going to trust God there?
When it comes to speaking aboutJesus, we all know that
experience where I should havesaid something but I kept my
mouth shut because I fearedsomething.
I didn't want to be rejected,my job was in jeopardy, I didn't
(12:56):
want to stick out, I didn't youknow there was a risk, and so I
kept my mouth shut about Jesus.
And courage is not the absenceof fear, it's realising there's
something bigger than the fearthat I have, and that experience
of balking back is saying well,I don't trust Jesus enough to
(13:16):
actually say something about it.
And Paul, regularly, what he didwas he saw, it was just
captured by this message of theforgiveness of sins, the hope of
heaven, the resurrection, andso, in spite of incredible
opposition and incrediblepersecution.
He just kept speaking aboutJesus.
I mean, people thought he wascrazy.
You know what I mean, agrippaand Festus, you know you're out
(13:38):
of your mind, paul.
You're trying to persuade us tobecome a Christian and he just
was so captured by this, and Ithink that that's the challenge
is, this is an opportunityactually for Christian growth.
This fear.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
And like am I going to say something about Jesus or
not?
I mean, I guess that's thepoint, isn't it?
What about when I'm Christian?
I'm struggling to speak becauseI am frightened.
How do I?
What's the challenge to methere from 2 Corinthians 4.13?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah, it's not, and we're not talking about
strategically working out whatthe right time to say is, or
something like that, but there'sjust times when your fear
trumps your faith, and so youpray that God would give you the
strength to say something andyou say the thing.
And that's going to meandifferent things for different
(14:29):
people in different contexts,but it's a faith-growing
exercise at that moment, and weall know those moments yeah,
implications.
I shared a bunch of implicationsat Nexus.
There are a few others I had,but the first one was that
(14:51):
evangelism is for everyone,because we're all people of
faith.
Christians are people of faith,and so the idea that we all
have opportunities to speakabout Jesus and that's a natural
thing.
It's not a command thing, as itwere, but it's.
You know, you love Jesus, youlove people, and if you are
someone that trusts, you're nowsomeone that speaks.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Now, when you say evangelism is for everyone,
you're not just sayingevangelism I'm cooking the meal
for the evangelistic dinner.
Evangelism I'm paying the moneyto pay for the evangelist.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
You're saying evangelism for everyone speaking
, speaking something about Jesusand speaking something about
the faith, it will lookdifferent in a whole bunch of
different ways, just evenletting people know that you're
a Christian and having anopinion about Christ or an
explanation of why you're doingthings because you trust Jesus.
(15:45):
There's going to be thoseopportunities to actually link
the things you're doing in lifeto who Jesus is and what he's
done.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Now you are at this point pushing into and pushing
against the PhD thesis of JohnDixon.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah, there's an element of John's work which was
really trying to, I think,identify if there's a command
for Christians to evangelise and, in one sense, wanting to not
burden people with things theyshouldn't be burdened with and I
respect that.
You know the Pharisees burdenedpeople with laws that they
shouldn't and, you know, didn'tlift a finger.
(16:23):
And so John's conclusion wasthat, as he looked, he saw that
there wasn't even a minor dutyplaced upon the believer to
share the gospel.
I think we've got the quote upthere.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
I'll read it to you.
Contrary to the conclusions ofPT O'Brien et al, the
proclamation of the gospel neverappears as even a minor duty of
Paul's converts.
Paul usually portrayedbelievers as passive in relation
to the preaching of the gospel.
They were those who had merelyreceived the message and now
(16:58):
obliged to live in faithfulness,ethically or confessionally to
it.
That's page 311.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah, and there's some truth to that that if you
are looking for a command,you're looking for that sense of
duty.
There isn't one, and I thinkwhat I said at Nexus was that
because it's the wrong category.
The category that's describedin verse 13 is this category of
faith, of faith leading tospeech, of being so captured by
Jesus that there's a naturalelement of just.
(17:27):
It leads to what you talk about.
If you're passionate aboutsomething, you talk about it and
that's the character thisbelief category is.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
it's more Well, it kind of transcends something
that I do.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
It's now outside the realm of command.
So if you're looking for acommand, you won't find one
because it's the wrong categoryfor thinking about it, the
category of faith leading tospeech.
It doesn't require a command.
You're so captured by thegospel, captured by who Jesus is
, that it's the natural thing todo to speak about him.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Next implication Christianity is always public.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, it means that we, you know, as people of faith
, we don't shut up about it.
We're the kind of people thatlove to tell other people about
the message, despite theopposition, despite the
difficulty, despite thechallenge, despite the personal
cost and sacrifice.
And so to be Christian andclaim to be Christian and then
not speak about Jesus is justseen as an oddity in the New
(18:30):
Testament.
You know, to be Christian is tobe someone who's captured by
this message and wanting toshare it with others.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I mean you had some implications there for Christian
organisations, old sandstoneschools, those kind of places.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, I think there's a temptation to say look,
there's part of the Christianlife which is doing good to
others, that's the fruit of thegospel and we'll just
compartmentalise that off and itmeans we're not expressing what
it means to be Christian inthat experience.
We're just compartmentalisingsocial action or running a
school or running something likethat.
(19:07):
That we need to be not merelymoralistic, but we actually need
to be evangelistic and explainwhy we do what we do.
The reason we educate childrenthis way or the reason we
provide this service orsomething like that, is because
we believe that Jesus is Lord,that he wants us to love others
and he wants to have arelationship with you.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
So it's not just that I do the good thing.
I need to show you that it'sbecause of my faith that I'm
doing this.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, that would be a natural thing to do, to say I'm
a Christian, because I'm aChristian, I want to love you
and look after you, or I want to, you know, kind of educate you
in a particular way.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
And therefore you said and again, this is a bit of
a kind of penny drop moment ifwe're not evangelising, then
actually you're making thecharge that there's a more
foundational problem with ourfaith.
Yeah, that's the challenge, Ithink that's the challenge.
You're making the charge thatthere's a more foundational
problem with our faith.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah, that's the challenge.
I think that's the challenge.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I mean that's controversial.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, yeah, I think that we imagine ourselves to be
grown-up Christians.
We imagine ourselves in theDiocese of Sydney.
Like you know, we're really thefaithful people.
We trust Jesus, we trust theScriptures, but when push comes
to, shove.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
So the bedrock of orthodoxy is not I believe these
things.
The bedrock of orthodoxy is, Ibelieve, and it flows out from
me Well it's a test of faith.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
You know, the whole of life is testing that faith.
You think about 1 Peter, yourfaith refined by fire.
You know, will faith hang on tothe end?
Will you trust God in this new,difficult situation?
You know Job or you know Jesushimself.
He's got to trust Jesus in thisnew situation.
And so, presented with asituation of am I going to be
(20:52):
silent about Jesus or speakabout Jesus?
What am I going to do?
What am I going to do with that?
And is my faith?
How strong is my faith in theLord Jesus?
You know, even if people aregoing to kill me, am I going to
still speak about him?
My family was reading aboutStephen.
I mean, he was just picked toserve tables and here's a guy
with this opportunity to speakand he speaks.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
He doesn't stop, he doesn't, stop, he doesn't stop
In fear.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yeah, that's right.
And so he believes in theresurrection of the dead.
He's confident of what God'sgoing to do, and so he speaks.
It's staggering, it'simpressive, but that's the
character of every Christianperson is that we trust Jesus
with our lives, and so we'llspeak in different ways, but the
idea that this message issomething that others need to
(21:37):
hear as well.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Now it's two weeks since that conference.
What's the feedback interactionyou've had, because 300
ministers heard you that day.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Look, I think that for people it was certainly an
encouragement to think aboutwhat we do as ministers, because
we're in a faith-buildingexercise and really to in one
sense, own that problem ofevangelism.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
And if I want to see my church grow as an
evangelistic place, the keything is actually maturity, a
right understanding of maturityof my people.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Look, the wrong thing to do is to say you should
evangelise more.
That's just putting laws onpeople.
That's putting rules on people.
The thing we need to do is justcapture people's hearts with
just how magnificent Jesus is.
I mean, that's the challenge.
So, as we teach the scriptures,we want people to be captured
by just how wonderful he is, howsecure their life is in Christ,
(22:30):
the significance it means tohave your sins forgiven, to have
a right standing with God allof these things that we teach in
the scriptures.
That people are so capturedwith that that this is just the
defining thing about their livesand they see the need for other
people to hear about that in amassively real way.
That, then, that faith-buildingexercise, is what then equip
(22:55):
people for speaking about him.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Thank you so much for coming in and talking to us,
dominic.
Thank you, chris Braga has beenour guest.
He's the senior pastor of GraceWest Anglican Church in the
west of Sydney.
This has been the Pastor'sHeart.
My name's Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
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