November 3, 2025 • 30 mins
What does healthy, joyful, word-shaped congregational singing look like in a culture obsessed with self-expression?
We are shaped more than we realise by the culture around us. And today one of the most powerful cultural forces pressing on our churches is expressive individualism — the idea that the authentic self must be expressed and affirmed.
But what happens when this cultural air we breathe seeps into our church music? When sincerity becomes more important than truth, when the band is excellent yet the congregation is silent, and when singing shifts from “we proclaim Christ together” to “I express what I feel”?
If we do not address this, we risk disengaged congregations, weakened church identity and a missed opportunity for deep spiritual formation that comes as we sing God’s word to one another.
Alanna Glover — longtime church music leader, former member of Garage Hymnal, ten years with Emu Music, songwriter, trainer and theologian — has just completed significant research on expressive individualism and congregational singing in evangelical churches.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
A rethink on expressive individualism and
church music in Alana Glover.
Here's where the city is thePastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele.
What is the problem and what isthe way forward?
Expressive individualism isunavoidably impacting our
members and our churches.
There's an impact on churchesand actually on seeing.
(00:28):
If churches do not address thisimpact, it can lead to
disengaged congregationalparticipation, an over-emphasis
on emotional sincerity, aweakening of the church's
communal identity, and a missedopportunity for the valuable
spiritual formation that comesfrom us singing together.
(00:49):
They are the words from theconclusion of Alana Glover's new
thesis on, well, expressiveindividualism and church music.
She's with us.
She's worked for years in musicministry for the last decade
with EMU Music and has written asignificant thesis on this
impact of expressiveindividualism on congregational
singing in evangelical churches.
(01:11):
Alana, thanks for coming in.
I want to start with yourpastor's heart, because uh you
have thought about ourcongregations and evangelical
congregations, and the band wasgood and they were well prepared
and they're competent and theyprayed, and yet church started
and the congregation weren'tengaged.
SPEAKER_01 (01:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've seen this uh a lot over myyears of song leading.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Um you got there at 8 a.m.
and it's 9:30 now.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
Yes, isn't it so disheartening to spend all this
time um making the music greatand then just to see the
congregation totally disengageduh with that activity?
Um, what a missed opportunity.
So I really wanted to look intowhat was influencing the way
that our congregation sings.
SPEAKER_00 (01:58):
And is it me, is it us the band, or is it something
wider?
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
Yeah, and in some cases it is the band, but I
think it's so much deeper thanthat.
Um, and I wanted to see what isit that our secular worldview is
telling us about how we shouldbe when we're in church, um, and
what is it that the Bible tellsus we should be valuing and
doing uh as we sing together.
(02:21):
So I went in, I actually hadnever even heard of expressive
individualism when I started uhthis research, uh, but I knew
that there was somethinghappening there that I could
see.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:32):
Um now you're actually saying there's been a
shift.
I mean, a shift from, if youlike, 80s, 90s Christianity and
evangelicalism to 2020 umChristianity and evangelicalism.
Um, what do you diagnose theshift as?
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
Well, that is the timeline that we've seen
expressive individualism rise umas the worldview that we're kind
of living and breathing thesedays.
And it's a real move away fromcollectivism, so you know, the
that we do things because that'swhat our community does, and we
do things because that's whatour family do.
And that may have been people'sattitude to church uh back in
(03:10):
the day.
They come because that's what wedo, that's what my family does.
I sing because that's what wedo.
But expressive individualismteaches us uh not to go with the
flow, not to do things becauseeveryone else is doing it, but
to look inside ourselves, seewhat we find there, and stick to
that and live that out.
(03:31):
And that means that a lot ofpeople are less likely to just
go with the flow and just singbecause that's what we do.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
Yeah.
Let's um let's go uh, if youlike, to before and after, and
uh we'll we'll go to the Bibleand uh we'll put up a slide from
your thesis and just get get youto speak to this slide from
Colossians 3 16, 17.
SPEAKER_01 (03:54):
Yeah.
Well, there are lots of uh greatthings in the Bible that talk
about singing, but Colossians3.16 is one of your favorites.
Definitely me and so many otherpeople involved in music
ministry.
Um, and it shows us that there'skind of three things happening
as we sing, and it's helpful toplot this against arrows to show
kind of where things are comingfrom.
(04:16):
So let the word of Christ dwellin you richly.
We see that God gives us theword of Christ, so that should
be the content of our songs, andthen we teach and admonish one
another in song.
So there's this horizontalaspect to this ministry.
We are singing to one another.
We don't often think of that.
We often think of it as singingjust between us and God, but it
(04:38):
is a horizontal ministry ofteaching and admonishing.
And then all of that ishappening, singing with
gratitude in your hearts to God.
That's all giving praise andthanksgiving to God as a
community.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
Yeah.
Now, if you were to roll inEphesians 5 and or 1 Corinthians
14, what things would you add?
How would you tweak thatframework?
SPEAKER_01 (04:59):
Yes, the things like instead of uh the emphasis being
on the word of Christ um beinggiven to us, it's uh the spirit
being given to us.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
But you'd still have, if you like, that downward
thing from God to us.
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
Yes, that's right.
Um, in all those passages, youcan see this kind of tri
triangle thing happening thatshows us we're being given
something from God, then we aredoing something together on a
horizontal level, and all ofthat is for the glory of God as
He cultivates Thanksgiving inour hearts.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
And then one of the things I noticed as I was
reading through your thesis isthat you're actually saying that
essentially most of the problemsin church music have come from,
if you like, an over-emphasis onone of the arms of those
triangles.
Perhaps you could just give me,if you like, the the uh the
character classic mistakes thatwe make.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Um, and you can kind of see some of these mistakes
even physically.
So uh for a church that mightemphasize the horizontal aspect,
they will say, you cannot closeyour eyes while you sing because
we are looking at one another aswe sing.
We are emphasizing thishorizontal thing.
Um, and so the singing becomesnot so much about giving praise
(06:11):
and thanksgiving to God, butabout just admonishing one
another.
SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Only teaching and admonishing you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:17):
Yeah.
Um, and then the flip side ofthat, you know, those those
churches where you see andeveryone, it's just a sea of
eyes closed because it's allabout you and God.
It's all about that, maybedownward trajectory, but mostly
upward trajectory.
It's this is what I'm giving toyou, God.
This is the praise that I'mgiving to you.
Kind of doesn't matter who'sstanding around me as I do that.
(06:38):
Uh, and that shows uhoveremphasis on just that upward
trajectory arrow instead ofseeing all of those things
working together.
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Right.
Okay.
Now, all right.
Rise of expressiveindividualism.
Yeah.
And uh, I mean, well, what isexpressive individualism?
SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
Yeah.
So it's the worldview uh thatmakes up a lot of our Western
secular society today.
It's the idea that we lookinward to find out what is true
rather than looking at anexterior authority or source of
truth.
You look inward, you find what'sthere, and you cultivate that
(07:17):
and hold on to that, and thenyou make decisions in your life
that will help you bet bestexpress that to the world around
you.
So that leads to consumerculture, that leads to people
changing jobs every two years,that leads to people changing
church every two years based onhow they feel inside and what is
going to best represent theirtruth.
SPEAKER_00 (07:39):
Changing church every two years, too.
SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
I don't know if that's the statistic, but you
know, even the concept of churchshopping.
SPEAKER_00 (07:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:47):
That I will, this one doesn't suit me anymore.
I'm gonna go to this one, or I'mgoing to watch a lot online,
depending on how I'm feeling.
Uh, there's less of a commitmentmaybe to a church community,
particularly the idea of beingcommitted to a local church
community.
Now we shop around and we findout what best suits us.
(08:07):
Suits my brand.
That's right.
Yeah, my brand.
Hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (08:11):
Hmm.
Um okay, so we got anothertriangle we'll put up, and you
I'll just get you to unpackthis.
Um, how has expressiveindividualism changed?
Uh, well, what we sing, how wesing, and why we sing?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:29):
So this is a response slowly, I think.
Yeah, this is a response to thatsame triangle before.
And actually, those line thosewords along the lines are the
biblical um phrases that I'vepulled out of those passages.
So, what does God giveChristians to sing about?
Jesus, his word, and his spirit.
What do Christians do as they'resinging?
(08:51):
So, how do they sing to eachother, teach, admonish, and
serve one another?
And why do they sing?
They sing in prayer, praise, andthanksgiving.
And expressive individualism isdistorting each one of those.
SPEAKER_00 (09:04):
So, talk to me about how expressive individualism uh
changes what we sing.
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
Yeah.
So if expressive individualismtells you that truth comes from
within instead of from anexternal source, there's an
immediate clash there, isn'tthere?
If the Bible tells us that truthcomes from Jesus, his word, and
his spirit comes from God, um,then those are directly in
contrast with one another.
Instead, expressiveindividualism tells you the
(09:35):
source of truth is found withinyou, and that should be the
thing that you're singing about.
And if there's anythingintention there, um follow what
your heart is telling you, whatyou find inside.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
Okay, let's make it concrete.
Um uh where are some examples ofhow um expressive individualism
has impacted song words in songsthat I might have heard of?
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Ooh, songs you might have heard of.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
Christian songs that I might have heard of.
SPEAKER_01 (10:05):
Well, there's a trend that a lot of songs these
days are uh using a lot more eyelanguage instead of we language.
So they're much more likely tobe a personal experience rather
than a corporate experience.
SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
So I mean I can see a psalm where David speaks
personally.
Of course.
Yeah.
And so there's nothing wrongwith that.
I don't want to say that Ishouldn't have any eye songs.
No, no.
But you're saying if they're alleye songs, then that's a
problem.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
Then the natural thing that will occur, even if
there's nothing wrong with thoseeye songs, but a lot of the time
there is, um, even if there'snothing wrong with them, that's
how you end up with thatoveremphasis of it not being
about the horizontal ministryanymore.
It becomes if everything is eyelanguage, then you are
encouraging people just to lookat the downward and upward arrow
and ignore the vertical.
(10:53):
So we want to include both eyelanguage and we language so that
we're representing the fulltriangle.
Yeah.
Um, what are other things thatare trends?
Yeah.
Um much more expression ofemotion uh in the lyrics rather
than a reflection on theconcrete truths that we find in
(11:15):
the Bible.
So it may mention a truth andthen spend the rest of the song
talking about how I feel aboutthat.
And again, there's nothing wrongwith that because we see that in
the Psalms, uh, that personalexpression and emotion are good
things.
But if that's what's making upthe primary diet of the content
(11:36):
of your songs, then you'rereally not allowing it to be an
effective word ministry.
You're making it an em anemotional experience or trying
to manufacture an emotionalexperience for your
congregation.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
Okay.
And and yet, I mean, I can seesongs that we're singing in good
churches moving in thatdirection.
And you're saying we go a littlebit that way, and that's okay,
or there's a big problem goingthat direction at all, or what's
your prescription?
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
I just think there are too many really great songs
out there for us to be settlingfor songs that are simply not
wrong.
Does that make sense?
Um, there are a lot of songsthat you can look at and you can
say, that's fine.
I can't see that there'sanything, you know,
theologically incorrect aboutwhat's said there, but it's
(12:33):
there's just not enough there.
There's not enough great, richbiblical content there to be
training our congregations tolive out lives of of that are
shaped by the gospel.
Um so it's just not enough thatit's not wrong.
unknown (12:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:49):
Okay.
Let's go to the next one, how wesing.
Um you've said the Bible says weshould be teaching, admonishing,
and serving one another, and yetexpressive individualism tells
people that their performance tothe community around them is to
benefit them.
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:07):
Me, not I'm serving you.
SPEAKER_01 (13:10):
Yeah.
It's the attitude that uh I singso that I can have an experience
that is rewarding to me orenriching to me.
It is not about serving mybrothers and sisters around me.
So I really struggle when peoplecome up to me at the end of
leading a service and they'llsay, I don't like that song.
(13:30):
And when I unpack that withthem, it's not I disagree with
any of the truths in that song.
It's I don't really like the waythat melody goes, or I don't
really like the way that thatpoetry is phrased.
That doesn't do it for me.
Um, and that shows me that theemphasis there is on what that
person is getting out of it forthemselves rather than how is
this song benefiting my brothersand sisters around me.
(13:53):
So I like to think of this uhidea of preference and
deference, that sometimes we getour preference when we sing, but
a lot of the time we aredeferring to the preferences of
those around us for the sake ofbuilding up the body.
So I am laying down my musicalpreferences so that I can sing
(14:14):
for the joy and the benefit andthe building up of those around
me.
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
I don't name a name, but give us an example give us a
concrete example of thatcongregation, that that that
conversation you just had.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
I've seen somebody complaining about a song.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
Yeah.
What's the what's the feel?
How how does that play out?
And how do you what do you thensay?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:36):
I mean, you have to have thick skin to be in music
ministry because music is soemotional and subjective, and
there are so many differentstyles.
People feel like this ministry,maybe more than any other, they
can kind of assert a preferenceand have that met.
Um, but I mean, thoseconversations are just as I
(14:57):
said, someone saying, Oh, thatsong, I don't like it.
This is a bit of a whingy tone.
Do we have to keep doing it?
And look, there's merit tokeeping our song lists fresh and
listening to feedback from thecongregation.
If everyone is hating it, thenit's not benefiting anyone.
Um, and I am guessing.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
When I worked in radio, yeah.
Um, I was working at a musicradio station.
I'd go to a party, I'd say Iwork at this radio station, and
I discovered everyone is aprogram director at heart.
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:28):
The rest of the night I would be kind of
defending the playlist of theradio station.
SPEAKER_01 (15:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
You know, and I I do feel like in church everyone's a
program director at heart.
SPEAKER_01 (15:37):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Uh, but I I feel it myself.
I'm guilty of looking at thesongs or choosing the songs for
Sunday and thinking, I reallydon't like that one.
I don't want to sing it.
Um, and every time I've gone inwith that attitude, kind of, you
know, mentally kicking andscreaming, I don't want to leave
this song.
(15:57):
Uh almost every time I havesomeone come up to me at the end
of the service and say, Thankyou for that song.
SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
That song was exactly what I needed as I
walked through this experienceof grief in my life or this
experience of whatever it is inmy life.
And it spoke to me in this way.
And I always feel so convictedthat I'm not there to sing for
me.
I'm there to sing for mybrothers and sisters.
And also, if I go in prayer forprayerfully saying, God, I don't
(16:25):
really like this song, I don'treally like the way it goes.
Um, can you use it to ministerto my heart?
Um, that that is what happens.
I am then able to find joy insinging the truth, even if it's
not to the melody that is mypreference.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
And then this third one, um, the upward arrow, yeah.
That part of the goal, part ofwhat's going on is prayer,
praise, and thanksgiving to God.
SPEAKER_01 (16:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
And yet expressive individualism tells people that
their goal should beself-satisfaction, not the
glorification of the AlmightyGod.
SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
Yeah.
People will come out of a churchservice and say, Oh, the singing
didn't feel great today.
And what do they mean by that?
I think a lot of the time theymean I didn't feel like I was
really uh connecting with myemotions, that I was really um,
you know, feeling it.
Uh, when actually just thedeclaration of God's greatness,
(17:21):
praising him and giving him theworth that he is due, um, that
is valuable in and of itself.
That is part of the goal.
Or singing loudly so that yourbrothers and sisters around you
are encouraged.
That is the goal.
Um, but people don't see that asthe goal, they see personal
satisfaction as the goal.
And so they walk away thinking,oh, that wasn't great.
(17:43):
When actually they wereaccomplishing a lot of great
things if they would justparticipate.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:48):
Now I want to push into this idea of um uh there's
a lot of literature onexpressive individualism, and
actually a lot of it is nowChristian literature critiquing
expressive individualism andsaying everything about
expressive individualism isnegative, and yet you you're
(18:11):
saying that there actually aresome helpful things.
Let me push into that.
SPEAKER_01 (18:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and there I really noticedthis because I was writing an
academic paper and you weresupposed to show both sides of
the argument.
Uh, it was very easy for me tofind a lot of evangelical
writers talking about thisworldview as a threat to the
church.
This is what is bad aboutsociety around us that is
(18:38):
causing people to walk away anddeconstruct their faith and all
of that.
It was very hard to find adefense of expressive
individualism.
And that's because uh thesecular world around us isn't,
they're not walking around theirday-to-day lives going, isn't it
great that I'm an expressiveindividual?
SPEAKER_00 (18:55):
And people will be saying the only person I can
find that has spoken in defenseof expressive individualism is a
lala blubber.
SPEAKER_01 (19:02):
I'm not quite defending the whole thing, but I
just thought um, being a personthat is of that generation where
I am living and breathing thatworld of expressive
individualism.
SPEAKER_00 (19:15):
And this was actually what I found so helpful
about reading you because Irealized everyone else serious
that I'd read um expressiveindividualism was 20 or more
years older than you.
Sure.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm very interested.
I was very interested in readingwhat you had to say, and I'm
very interested in hearing whatyou've got to say now.
(19:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:37):
Um, there just seemed to be a little bit of a
disconnect between what I wasreading.
Um, you you can't avoid it ifyou've grown up in it, you are
an expressive individual, um,and it is totally incompatible
with Christianity.
Well, how do I reconcile thosetwo things as a person who is
living and breathing in thatworld, but is a committed
(19:57):
Christian?
Um there must be more nuancethere.
And I and there are a lot ofvalues that are problematic
about it, absolutely.
Uh, but I think there are acouple of values ingrained in it
that are maybe helpful for usbecoming committed, sincere
Christians, particularly thevalue of um authenticity and of
(20:20):
living out of a deep conviction.
So that is a real fight againstnominalism.
We don't just do things becausewe are told to.
No, we're deeply suspicious ofbeing told to do anything.
Um, but once we are convinced ofsomething, are convinced that
something is worthwhile, uh,then we are much more likely to
(20:43):
live that out in a committedway.
So I think it means that whenpeople are singing really well
in your congregation that are myage and younger, it's based off
a real deep conviction of thefaith that they profess, um,
which I think is actuallyencouraging.
SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
So we might find the non-Christian who's coming to
church or the just the theperson who's kind of working it
out, yeah, choosing not to singbecause they aren't affirming
this.
But when they actually come toChrist, we will now see them
(21:24):
singing with gusto.
Yes.
Because I'm authenticallyexpressing what is my deep self.
SPEAKER_01 (21:30):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:32):
That's interesting.
I mean, and that actually That'sinteresting to reflect on how
that might impact things likesaying the creed.
You know, that the person 20, 30years ago might have been
prepared to parrot the creed.
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:48):
I'm just thinking aloud here.
You know, um and yet not meanit.
Yeah.
Whereas now the expressiveindividual is not gonna I'm not
gonna say that.
I disagree with that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
And maybe they're they're slower to take it up
because they want to spend timethinking it through.
It is really hard to thinkthrough those deep truths of the
creed in the moment as you'resaying them at pace.
Um, but once people haveunderstood it, have been taught
what it all means, um, and areon board with it, then they are
much more likely to participatein a way that is genuine and
(22:21):
heartfelt and committed.
SPEAKER_00 (22:22):
Threats and opportunities of expressive
individualism for the church.
SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
Yeah.
So um, look, there are a lot ofthreats, and we're seeing people
walking away from the churchbecause of it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
Um, it is And you and I both got friends in that
situation.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:38):
So many.
It is a huge problem to be toldum that truth does not come from
an external source, that weshould look within ourselves to
find what is true and what ismeaningful.
Uh, because we know what lieswithin.
It is fickle, it is sinful, itis broken, and it will keep
(23:00):
changing its mind.
Um so that is very problematic.
Um the threats, uh, just ageneral um suspicion around
anything that is kind of a bigorganization.
So there will just be a generalattitude of the church, that
organization.
I can't trust them.
(23:21):
They are this big organizationthat have systems and and
authorities and expressiveindividualism will say, be
suspicious of that.
SPEAKER_00 (23:31):
Um I mean, that's that's interesting.
I don't think I had puttogether.
I mean, a lot of people wouldsay, I don't like the church.
SPEAKER_01 (23:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:39):
But I do like actually you.
Yeah, yeah.
I I do like what you're doing inyour church at you down the road
here, and the people seem niceand yeah, they don't like the
church, big church.
Do you know?
SPEAKER_01 (23:53):
Yeah, yeah, the capital, the church, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:55):
Yeah, and I don't think I'd put that, I mean, I'd
I'd notice that phenomena, but Idon't think I'd put that under
the heading of part of theconsequences of expressive
individualism before.
SPEAKER_01 (24:06):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, they trace its rootsback to kind of the French
Revolution and um, you know,overthrowing of authorities that
have um uh you know squashed thethe little guy.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
Um now what about expressive individualism and
Pentecostalism?
I mean, we're in a city whereHillsong is a big player, yeah.
Um uh Christian City CCC is abig player, yeah.
And yet you've got uhevangelicalism is a big player,
yeah.
And um, and so up until nowyou've been describing the
impact of um expressiveindividualism on evangelical
(24:43):
churches.
SPEAKER_01 (24:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:44):
Um what has the impact of expressive
individualism been on thePentecostal charismatic church?
SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
Right.
My thesis is was focused onevangelical churches.
SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
This is not what you're just for me.
As an aside, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:58):
Um I mean, Pentecostal churches uh they
have a lot of differences withinthemselves, you know, across the
different Pentecostal churcheson what they believe.
Um so some are going to be ummuch more um problematic than
others from an evangelicalperspective.
Um, so there's their theology isheightens the authority of self,
(25:24):
I think.
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
So it kind of leans into expressive individualism.
SPEAKER_01 (25:27):
Yeah.
So I think there's a it's notthat expressive individualism
has caused Pentecostal or shapedPentecostal theology to be what
it is.
We can trace that throughhistory, and it's long before
expressive individualism.
Um, but it lends itself to uhworking more closely, tying in
more closely with the values ofexpressive individual.
SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
So it will sit more comfortably in the expressive
individualist worldview.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:52):
So take, for instance, the idea of tarrying,
um, this idea that um started invery early Pentecostal days in
1900s of um we sing in order togain God's favor and in order to
show God and demonstrate to Godour devotion to him.
(26:13):
And there are accounts of peoplesinging for eight, 10, 12 hours
straight, this tarrying beforethe Lord to gain his favor.
It is all about the individual,which theologically sounds
bizarre to me.
SPEAKER_00 (26:25):
Right.
Yeah, but keep going.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:27):
The individual is declaring their um their love of
God, their allegiance to him,their faithfulness to him.
Um, it is all about what iscoming from the individual to
God.
And then a lot of other thingsflow out of that in their
theology.
If I am not encountering theblessings of God, I didn't tarry
hard enough.
I didn't show God enough fervorin my singing and my devotion to
(26:52):
him.
So you can see straight awaythat that lends itself really
nicely to expressiveindividualism.
If I my goal is to um feelsatisfied in my self-expression,
then that kind of tradition oftarrying, of declaring my
devotion to God, that they sithand in hand.
SPEAKER_00 (27:09):
Yeah.
Is that where that kind of like24 hours of praise and worship
comes from?
SPEAKER_01 (27:13):
Do you think that uh I mean there may be other good
reasons for that kind ofactivity, but I think that's the
tradition that it comes from.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:22):
Right.
Okay.
And so um I'm an evangelicalminister listening to what
you've said, what are thepractical takeaways that you I
mean, we're gonna get you backto give this in detail.
Yeah.
But with just a couple ofheadline practical takeaways of
(27:42):
what I might do.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
I mean, I have miles of content on this.
SPEAKER_00 (27:47):
And we're gonna get you back.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
But the the kind of two practical things that are
most important are the songsthat we choose and the way that
we lead our singing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:00):
Quick 30 seconds on each.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
Um, we want the content of our songs to um be an
effective word ministry to sitalongside the preached word.
We have the preached word andthe sung word.
Uh, and we want all of our songsto work together to meet the
goals of Colossians 3:16.
We want them all to be um fullof the word of Christ.
(28:25):
We want them all to enable theteaching and admonishing of one
another, and we want them all tolead people to a heart place of
thankfulness and gratitude toGod as they praise him.
So we want the diet of our songsto all be accomplishing that
goal, and that has bigimplications for how what each
(28:45):
individual song should say.
SPEAKER_00 (28:47):
Alana Glover, thanks so much for coming in and
talking to us.
Thank you.
Alana Glover has uh been myguest.
She has worked in music ministryfor a long time, the last decade
with Emi Music.
She's written this significantthesis, and she told me just
before she's about to go off andnow do work on turning it into a
book, so we can look forward tothat.
Thanks for joining us on ThePastor's Heart.
(29:09):
My name's Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
A rethink on expressive individualism and
church music in Alana Glover.
Here's where the city is thePastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele.
What is the problem and what isthe way forward?
Expressive individualism isunavoidably impacting our
members and our churches.
There's an impact on churchesand actually on seeing.
(00:28):
If churches do not address thisimpact, it can lead to
disengaged congregationalparticipation, an over-emphasis
on emotional sincerity, aweakening of the church's
communal identity, and a missedopportunity for the valuable
spiritual formation that comesfrom us singing together.
(00:49):
They are the words from theconclusion of Alana Glover's new
thesis on, well, expressiveindividualism and church music.
She's with us.
She's worked for years in musicministry for the last decade
with EMU Music and has written asignificant thesis on this
impact of expressiveindividualism on congregational
singing in evangelical churches.
(01:11):
Alana, thanks for coming in.
I want to start with yourpastor's heart, because uh you
have thought about ourcongregations and evangelical
congregations, and the band wasgood and they were well prepared
and they're competent and theyprayed, and yet church started
and the congregation weren'tengaged.
SPEAKER_01 (01:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've seen this uh a lot over myyears of song leading.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Um you got there at 8 a.m.
and it's 9:30 now.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
Yes, isn't it so disheartening to spend all this
time um making the music greatand then just to see the
congregation totally disengageduh with that activity?
Um, what a missed opportunity.
So I really wanted to look intowhat was influencing the way
that our congregation sings.
SPEAKER_00 (01:58):
And is it me, is it us the band, or is it something
wider?
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
Yeah, and in some cases it is the band, but I
think it's so much deeper thanthat.
Um, and I wanted to see what isit that our secular worldview is
telling us about how we shouldbe when we're in church, um, and
what is it that the Bible tellsus we should be valuing and
doing uh as we sing together.
(02:21):
So I went in, I actually hadnever even heard of expressive
individualism when I started uhthis research, uh, but I knew
that there was somethinghappening there that I could
see.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:32):
Um now you're actually saying there's been a
shift.
I mean, a shift from, if youlike, 80s, 90s Christianity and
evangelicalism to 2020 umChristianity and evangelicalism.
Um, what do you diagnose theshift as?
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
Well, that is the timeline that we've seen
expressive individualism rise umas the worldview that we're kind
of living and breathing thesedays.
And it's a real move away fromcollectivism, so you know, the
that we do things because that'swhat our community does, and we
do things because that's whatour family do.
And that may have been people'sattitude to church uh back in
(03:10):
the day.
They come because that's what wedo, that's what my family does.
I sing because that's what wedo.
But expressive individualismteaches us uh not to go with the
flow, not to do things becauseeveryone else is doing it, but
to look inside ourselves, seewhat we find there, and stick to
that and live that out.
(03:31):
And that means that a lot ofpeople are less likely to just
go with the flow and just singbecause that's what we do.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
Yeah.
Let's um let's go uh, if youlike, to before and after, and
uh we'll we'll go to the Bibleand uh we'll put up a slide from
your thesis and just get get youto speak to this slide from
Colossians 3 16, 17.
SPEAKER_01 (03:54):
Yeah.
Well, there are lots of uh greatthings in the Bible that talk
about singing, but Colossians3.16 is one of your favorites.
Definitely me and so many otherpeople involved in music
ministry.
Um, and it shows us that there'skind of three things happening
as we sing, and it's helpful toplot this against arrows to show
kind of where things are comingfrom.
(04:16):
So let the word of Christ dwellin you richly.
We see that God gives us theword of Christ, so that should
be the content of our songs, andthen we teach and admonish one
another in song.
So there's this horizontalaspect to this ministry.
We are singing to one another.
We don't often think of that.
We often think of it as singingjust between us and God, but it
(04:38):
is a horizontal ministry ofteaching and admonishing.
And then all of that ishappening, singing with
gratitude in your hearts to God.
That's all giving praise andthanksgiving to God as a
community.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
Yeah.
Now, if you were to roll inEphesians 5 and or 1 Corinthians
14, what things would you add?
How would you tweak thatframework?
SPEAKER_01 (04:59):
Yes, the things like instead of uh the emphasis being
on the word of Christ um beinggiven to us, it's uh the spirit
being given to us.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
But you'd still have, if you like, that downward
thing from God to us.
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
Yes, that's right.
Um, in all those passages, youcan see this kind of tri
triangle thing happening thatshows us we're being given
something from God, then we aredoing something together on a
horizontal level, and all ofthat is for the glory of God as
He cultivates Thanksgiving inour hearts.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
And then one of the things I noticed as I was
reading through your thesis isthat you're actually saying that
essentially most of the problemsin church music have come from,
if you like, an over-emphasis onone of the arms of those
triangles.
Perhaps you could just give me,if you like, the the uh the
character classic mistakes thatwe make.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Um, and you can kind of see some of these mistakes
even physically.
So uh for a church that mightemphasize the horizontal aspect,
they will say, you cannot closeyour eyes while you sing because
we are looking at one another aswe sing.
We are emphasizing thishorizontal thing.
Um, and so the singing becomesnot so much about giving praise
(06:11):
and thanksgiving to God, butabout just admonishing one
another.
SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Only teaching and admonishing you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:17):
Yeah.
Um, and then the flip side ofthat, you know, those those
churches where you see andeveryone, it's just a sea of
eyes closed because it's allabout you and God.
It's all about that, maybedownward trajectory, but mostly
upward trajectory.
It's this is what I'm giving toyou, God.
This is the praise that I'mgiving to you.
Kind of doesn't matter who'sstanding around me as I do that.
(06:38):
Uh, and that shows uhoveremphasis on just that upward
trajectory arrow instead ofseeing all of those things
working together.
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Right.
Okay.
Now, all right.
Rise of expressiveindividualism.
Yeah.
And uh, I mean, well, what isexpressive individualism?
SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
Yeah.
So it's the worldview uh thatmakes up a lot of our Western
secular society today.
It's the idea that we lookinward to find out what is true
rather than looking at anexterior authority or source of
truth.
You look inward, you find what'sthere, and you cultivate that
(07:17):
and hold on to that, and thenyou make decisions in your life
that will help you bet bestexpress that to the world around
you.
So that leads to consumerculture, that leads to people
changing jobs every two years,that leads to people changing
church every two years based onhow they feel inside and what is
going to best represent theirtruth.
SPEAKER_00 (07:39):
Changing church every two years, too.
SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
I don't know if that's the statistic, but you
know, even the concept of churchshopping.
SPEAKER_00 (07:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:47):
That I will, this one doesn't suit me anymore.
I'm gonna go to this one, or I'mgoing to watch a lot online,
depending on how I'm feeling.
Uh, there's less of a commitmentmaybe to a church community,
particularly the idea of beingcommitted to a local church
community.
Now we shop around and we findout what best suits us.
(08:07):
Suits my brand.
That's right.
Yeah, my brand.
Hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (08:11):
Hmm.
Um okay, so we got anothertriangle we'll put up, and you
I'll just get you to unpackthis.
Um, how has expressiveindividualism changed?
Uh, well, what we sing, how wesing, and why we sing?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:29):
So this is a response slowly, I think.
Yeah, this is a response to thatsame triangle before.
And actually, those line thosewords along the lines are the
biblical um phrases that I'vepulled out of those passages.
So, what does God giveChristians to sing about?
Jesus, his word, and his spirit.
What do Christians do as they'resinging?
(08:51):
So, how do they sing to eachother, teach, admonish, and
serve one another?
And why do they sing?
They sing in prayer, praise, andthanksgiving.
And expressive individualism isdistorting each one of those.
SPEAKER_00 (09:04):
So, talk to me about how expressive individualism uh
changes what we sing.
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
Yeah.
So if expressive individualismtells you that truth comes from
within instead of from anexternal source, there's an
immediate clash there, isn'tthere?
If the Bible tells us that truthcomes from Jesus, his word, and
his spirit comes from God, um,then those are directly in
contrast with one another.
Instead, expressiveindividualism tells you the
(09:35):
source of truth is found withinyou, and that should be the
thing that you're singing about.
And if there's anythingintention there, um follow what
your heart is telling you, whatyou find inside.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
Okay, let's make it concrete.
Um uh where are some examples ofhow um expressive individualism
has impacted song words in songsthat I might have heard of?
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Ooh, songs you might have heard of.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
Christian songs that I might have heard of.
SPEAKER_01 (10:05):
Well, there's a trend that a lot of songs these
days are uh using a lot more eyelanguage instead of we language.
So they're much more likely tobe a personal experience rather
than a corporate experience.
SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
So I mean I can see a psalm where David speaks
personally.
Of course.
Yeah.
And so there's nothing wrongwith that.
I don't want to say that Ishouldn't have any eye songs.
No, no.
But you're saying if they're alleye songs, then that's a
problem.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
Then the natural thing that will occur, even if
there's nothing wrong with thoseeye songs, but a lot of the time
there is, um, even if there'snothing wrong with them, that's
how you end up with thatoveremphasis of it not being
about the horizontal ministryanymore.
It becomes if everything is eyelanguage, then you are
encouraging people just to lookat the downward and upward arrow
and ignore the vertical.
(10:53):
So we want to include both eyelanguage and we language so that
we're representing the fulltriangle.
Yeah.
Um, what are other things thatare trends?
Yeah.
Um much more expression ofemotion uh in the lyrics rather
than a reflection on theconcrete truths that we find in
(11:15):
the Bible.
So it may mention a truth andthen spend the rest of the song
talking about how I feel aboutthat.
And again, there's nothing wrongwith that because we see that in
the Psalms, uh, that personalexpression and emotion are good
things.
But if that's what's making upthe primary diet of the content
(11:36):
of your songs, then you'rereally not allowing it to be an
effective word ministry.
You're making it an em anemotional experience or trying
to manufacture an emotionalexperience for your
congregation.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
Okay.
And and yet, I mean, I can seesongs that we're singing in good
churches moving in thatdirection.
And you're saying we go a littlebit that way, and that's okay,
or there's a big problem goingthat direction at all, or what's
your prescription?
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
I just think there are too many really great songs
out there for us to be settlingfor songs that are simply not
wrong.
Does that make sense?
Um, there are a lot of songsthat you can look at and you can
say, that's fine.
I can't see that there'sanything, you know,
theologically incorrect aboutwhat's said there, but it's
(12:33):
there's just not enough there.
There's not enough great, richbiblical content there to be
training our congregations tolive out lives of of that are
shaped by the gospel.
Um so it's just not enough thatit's not wrong.
unknown (12:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:49):
Okay.
Let's go to the next one, how wesing.
Um you've said the Bible says weshould be teaching, admonishing,
and serving one another, and yetexpressive individualism tells
people that their performance tothe community around them is to
benefit them.
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:07):
Me, not I'm serving you.
SPEAKER_01 (13:10):
Yeah.
It's the attitude that uh I singso that I can have an experience
that is rewarding to me orenriching to me.
It is not about serving mybrothers and sisters around me.
So I really struggle when peoplecome up to me at the end of
leading a service and they'llsay, I don't like that song.
(13:30):
And when I unpack that withthem, it's not I disagree with
any of the truths in that song.
It's I don't really like the waythat melody goes, or I don't
really like the way that thatpoetry is phrased.
That doesn't do it for me.
Um, and that shows me that theemphasis there is on what that
person is getting out of it forthemselves rather than how is
this song benefiting my brothersand sisters around me.
(13:53):
So I like to think of this uhidea of preference and
deference, that sometimes we getour preference when we sing, but
a lot of the time we aredeferring to the preferences of
those around us for the sake ofbuilding up the body.
So I am laying down my musicalpreferences so that I can sing
(14:14):
for the joy and the benefit andthe building up of those around
me.
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
I don't name a name, but give us an example give us a
concrete example of thatcongregation, that that that
conversation you just had.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
I've seen somebody complaining about a song.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
Yeah.
What's the what's the feel?
How how does that play out?
And how do you what do you thensay?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:36):
I mean, you have to have thick skin to be in music
ministry because music is soemotional and subjective, and
there are so many differentstyles.
People feel like this ministry,maybe more than any other, they
can kind of assert a preferenceand have that met.
Um, but I mean, thoseconversations are just as I
(14:57):
said, someone saying, Oh, thatsong, I don't like it.
This is a bit of a whingy tone.
Do we have to keep doing it?
And look, there's merit tokeeping our song lists fresh and
listening to feedback from thecongregation.
If everyone is hating it, thenit's not benefiting anyone.
Um, and I am guessing.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
When I worked in radio, yeah.
Um, I was working at a musicradio station.
I'd go to a party, I'd say Iwork at this radio station, and
I discovered everyone is aprogram director at heart.
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:28):
The rest of the night I would be kind of
defending the playlist of theradio station.
SPEAKER_01 (15:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
You know, and I I do feel like in church everyone's a
program director at heart.
SPEAKER_01 (15:37):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Uh, but I I feel it myself.
I'm guilty of looking at thesongs or choosing the songs for
Sunday and thinking, I reallydon't like that one.
I don't want to sing it.
Um, and every time I've gone inwith that attitude, kind of, you
know, mentally kicking andscreaming, I don't want to leave
this song.
(15:57):
Uh almost every time I havesomeone come up to me at the end
of the service and say, Thankyou for that song.
SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
That song was exactly what I needed as I
walked through this experienceof grief in my life or this
experience of whatever it is inmy life.
And it spoke to me in this way.
And I always feel so convictedthat I'm not there to sing for
me.
I'm there to sing for mybrothers and sisters.
And also, if I go in prayer forprayerfully saying, God, I don't
(16:25):
really like this song, I don'treally like the way it goes.
Um, can you use it to ministerto my heart?
Um, that that is what happens.
I am then able to find joy insinging the truth, even if it's
not to the melody that is mypreference.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
And then this third one, um, the upward arrow, yeah.
That part of the goal, part ofwhat's going on is prayer,
praise, and thanksgiving to God.
SPEAKER_01 (16:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
And yet expressive individualism tells people that
their goal should beself-satisfaction, not the
glorification of the AlmightyGod.
SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
Yeah.
People will come out of a churchservice and say, Oh, the singing
didn't feel great today.
And what do they mean by that?
I think a lot of the time theymean I didn't feel like I was
really uh connecting with myemotions, that I was really um,
you know, feeling it.
Uh, when actually just thedeclaration of God's greatness,
(17:21):
praising him and giving him theworth that he is due, um, that
is valuable in and of itself.
That is part of the goal.
Or singing loudly so that yourbrothers and sisters around you
are encouraged.
That is the goal.
Um, but people don't see that asthe goal, they see personal
satisfaction as the goal.
And so they walk away thinking,oh, that wasn't great.
(17:43):
When actually they wereaccomplishing a lot of great
things if they would justparticipate.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:48):
Now I want to push into this idea of um uh there's
a lot of literature onexpressive individualism, and
actually a lot of it is nowChristian literature critiquing
expressive individualism andsaying everything about
expressive individualism isnegative, and yet you you're
(18:11):
saying that there actually aresome helpful things.
Let me push into that.
SPEAKER_01 (18:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and there I really noticedthis because I was writing an
academic paper and you weresupposed to show both sides of
the argument.
Uh, it was very easy for me tofind a lot of evangelical
writers talking about thisworldview as a threat to the
church.
This is what is bad aboutsociety around us that is
(18:38):
causing people to walk away anddeconstruct their faith and all
of that.
It was very hard to find adefense of expressive
individualism.
And that's because uh thesecular world around us isn't,
they're not walking around theirday-to-day lives going, isn't it
great that I'm an expressiveindividual?
SPEAKER_00 (18:55):
And people will be saying the only person I can
find that has spoken in defenseof expressive individualism is a
lala blubber.
SPEAKER_01 (19:02):
I'm not quite defending the whole thing, but I
just thought um, being a personthat is of that generation where
I am living and breathing thatworld of expressive
individualism.
SPEAKER_00 (19:15):
And this was actually what I found so helpful
about reading you because Irealized everyone else serious
that I'd read um expressiveindividualism was 20 or more
years older than you.
Sure.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm very interested.
I was very interested in readingwhat you had to say, and I'm
very interested in hearing whatyou've got to say now.
(19:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:37):
Um, there just seemed to be a little bit of a
disconnect between what I wasreading.
Um, you you can't avoid it ifyou've grown up in it, you are
an expressive individual, um,and it is totally incompatible
with Christianity.
Well, how do I reconcile thosetwo things as a person who is
living and breathing in thatworld, but is a committed
(19:57):
Christian?
Um there must be more nuancethere.
And I and there are a lot ofvalues that are problematic
about it, absolutely.
Uh, but I think there are acouple of values ingrained in it
that are maybe helpful for usbecoming committed, sincere
Christians, particularly thevalue of um authenticity and of
(20:20):
living out of a deep conviction.
So that is a real fight againstnominalism.
We don't just do things becausewe are told to.
No, we're deeply suspicious ofbeing told to do anything.
Um, but once we are convinced ofsomething, are convinced that
something is worthwhile, uh,then we are much more likely to
(20:43):
live that out in a committedway.
So I think it means that whenpeople are singing really well
in your congregation that are myage and younger, it's based off
a real deep conviction of thefaith that they profess, um,
which I think is actuallyencouraging.
SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
So we might find the non-Christian who's coming to
church or the just the theperson who's kind of working it
out, yeah, choosing not to singbecause they aren't affirming
this.
But when they actually come toChrist, we will now see them
(21:24):
singing with gusto.
Yes.
Because I'm authenticallyexpressing what is my deep self.
SPEAKER_01 (21:30):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:32):
That's interesting.
I mean, and that actually That'sinteresting to reflect on how
that might impact things likesaying the creed.
You know, that the person 20, 30years ago might have been
prepared to parrot the creed.
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:48):
I'm just thinking aloud here.
You know, um and yet not meanit.
Yeah.
Whereas now the expressiveindividual is not gonna I'm not
gonna say that.
I disagree with that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
And maybe they're they're slower to take it up
because they want to spend timethinking it through.
It is really hard to thinkthrough those deep truths of the
creed in the moment as you'resaying them at pace.
Um, but once people haveunderstood it, have been taught
what it all means, um, and areon board with it, then they are
much more likely to participatein a way that is genuine and
(22:21):
heartfelt and committed.
SPEAKER_00 (22:22):
Threats and opportunities of expressive
individualism for the church.
SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
Yeah.
So um, look, there are a lot ofthreats, and we're seeing people
walking away from the churchbecause of it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
Um, it is And you and I both got friends in that
situation.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:38):
So many.
It is a huge problem to be toldum that truth does not come from
an external source, that weshould look within ourselves to
find what is true and what ismeaningful.
Uh, because we know what lieswithin.
It is fickle, it is sinful, itis broken, and it will keep
(23:00):
changing its mind.
Um so that is very problematic.
Um the threats, uh, just ageneral um suspicion around
anything that is kind of a bigorganization.
So there will just be a generalattitude of the church, that
organization.
I can't trust them.
(23:21):
They are this big organizationthat have systems and and
authorities and expressiveindividualism will say, be
suspicious of that.
SPEAKER_00 (23:31):
Um I mean, that's that's interesting.
I don't think I had puttogether.
I mean, a lot of people wouldsay, I don't like the church.
SPEAKER_01 (23:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:39):
But I do like actually you.
Yeah, yeah.
I I do like what you're doing inyour church at you down the road
here, and the people seem niceand yeah, they don't like the
church, big church.
Do you know?
SPEAKER_01 (23:53):
Yeah, yeah, the capital, the church, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:55):
Yeah, and I don't think I'd put that, I mean, I'd
I'd notice that phenomena, but Idon't think I'd put that under
the heading of part of theconsequences of expressive
individualism before.
SPEAKER_01 (24:06):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, they trace its rootsback to kind of the French
Revolution and um, you know,overthrowing of authorities that
have um uh you know squashed thethe little guy.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
Um now what about expressive individualism and
Pentecostalism?
I mean, we're in a city whereHillsong is a big player, yeah.
Um uh Christian City CCC is abig player, yeah.
And yet you've got uhevangelicalism is a big player,
yeah.
And um, and so up until nowyou've been describing the
impact of um expressiveindividualism on evangelical
(24:43):
churches.
SPEAKER_01 (24:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:44):
Um what has the impact of expressive
individualism been on thePentecostal charismatic church?
SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
Right.
My thesis is was focused onevangelical churches.
SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
This is not what you're just for me.
As an aside, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:58):
Um I mean, Pentecostal churches uh they
have a lot of differences withinthemselves, you know, across the
different Pentecostal churcheson what they believe.
Um so some are going to be ummuch more um problematic than
others from an evangelicalperspective.
Um, so there's their theology isheightens the authority of self,
(25:24):
I think.
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
So it kind of leans into expressive individualism.
SPEAKER_01 (25:27):
Yeah.
So I think there's a it's notthat expressive individualism
has caused Pentecostal or shapedPentecostal theology to be what
it is.
We can trace that throughhistory, and it's long before
expressive individualism.
Um, but it lends itself to uhworking more closely, tying in
more closely with the values ofexpressive individual.
SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
So it will sit more comfortably in the expressive
individualist worldview.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:52):
So take, for instance, the idea of tarrying,
um, this idea that um started invery early Pentecostal days in
1900s of um we sing in order togain God's favor and in order to
show God and demonstrate to Godour devotion to him.
(26:13):
And there are accounts of peoplesinging for eight, 10, 12 hours
straight, this tarrying beforethe Lord to gain his favor.
It is all about the individual,which theologically sounds
bizarre to me.
SPEAKER_00 (26:25):
Right.
Yeah, but keep going.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:27):
The individual is declaring their um their love of
God, their allegiance to him,their faithfulness to him.
Um, it is all about what iscoming from the individual to
God.
And then a lot of other thingsflow out of that in their
theology.
If I am not encountering theblessings of God, I didn't tarry
hard enough.
I didn't show God enough fervorin my singing and my devotion to
(26:52):
him.
So you can see straight awaythat that lends itself really
nicely to expressiveindividualism.
If I my goal is to um feelsatisfied in my self-expression,
then that kind of tradition oftarrying, of declaring my
devotion to God, that they sithand in hand.
SPEAKER_00 (27:09):
Yeah.
Is that where that kind of like24 hours of praise and worship
comes from?
SPEAKER_01 (27:13):
Do you think that uh I mean there may be other good
reasons for that kind ofactivity, but I think that's the
tradition that it comes from.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:22):
Right.
Okay.
And so um I'm an evangelicalminister listening to what
you've said, what are thepractical takeaways that you I
mean, we're gonna get you backto give this in detail.
Yeah.
But with just a couple ofheadline practical takeaways of
(27:42):
what I might do.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
I mean, I have miles of content on this.
SPEAKER_00 (27:47):
And we're gonna get you back.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
But the the kind of two practical things that are
most important are the songsthat we choose and the way that
we lead our singing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:00):
Quick 30 seconds on each.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
Um, we want the content of our songs to um be an
effective word ministry to sitalongside the preached word.
We have the preached word andthe sung word.
Uh, and we want all of our songsto work together to meet the
goals of Colossians 3:16.
We want them all to be um fullof the word of Christ.
(28:25):
We want them all to enable theteaching and admonishing of one
another, and we want them all tolead people to a heart place of
thankfulness and gratitude toGod as they praise him.
So we want the diet of our songsto all be accomplishing that
goal, and that has bigimplications for how what each
(28:45):
individual song should say.
SPEAKER_00 (28:47):
Alana Glover, thanks so much for coming in and
talking to us.
Thank you.
Alana Glover has uh been myguest.
She has worked in music ministryfor a long time, the last decade
with Emi Music.
She's written this significantthesis, and she told me just
before she's about to go off andnow do work on turning it into a
book, so we can look forward tothat.
Thanks for joining us on ThePastor's Heart.
(29:09):
My name's Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
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