March 11, 2025 • 34 mins
A new study shows that training in systematic self reflection will develop resilience among ministry workers, who are at risk of stress related ill health.
Self reflective resilience training is beneficial to those in ministry roles and programs in this area can minimise stress related ill health.
BUT, Not all self reflection is equal.
Organisational Psychologist with Sydney’s Center for Ministry Development Kirsty Bucknell has surveyed and tested a significant number of Australian Protestant Ministry workers to analyse the relationship between self reflection and mental health outcomes.
Kirsty’s just completed her PhD on this subject and says while there is a high sense of purpose and personal satisfaction in ministry work the stressors and strains of the role have been associated with burnout and stress related ill health.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
it is the pastor's heart and today, improving
self-reflection to strengthenresilience in ministry workers
with kirsty bucknell.
A new study shows the trainingin systematic self-reflection
will work for the development ofresilience among ministry
workers.
Ministry workers are at risk ofstress-related ill health.
Self-reflective resiliencetraining is beneficial to those
(00:32):
in ministry roles and programsin this area can minimise the
risk of stress-related illhealth.
But not all self-reflection isequalie Bucknell has engaged in
a survey and a trial of asignificant number of Australian
Protestant ministry workers,analysing the relationship
between self-reflection andmental health outcomes.
(00:55):
She's also explored therelationship between
self-reflective writings andsuccessful coping and
unsuccessful coping.
She works as an organisationalpsychologist at the Centre for
Ministry Development at Sydney'sMoore Theological College.
She's just completed her PhD onthis subject and she's here
with us on the Pastor's Heart toshare her findings.
(01:16):
Kirsty, let's start with yourpastor's heart, and you have
spent a significant amount oftime and energy significant
portion of your life researchingresilience amongst ministry
workers because I take it youcare about us.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
That's so true, dominic.
That's very true, thank you.
I have worked with the Centrefor Ministry Development for
some time, and working alongsidepastors highlighted for me the
many stresses and demands thatpeople who are in ministry are
under, and as an organisationalpsychologist, I thought surely
(01:56):
there's something more I can bedoing and surely there's
something that we can be doingto support people who are in
ministry.
And so that was my heart fordoing this work is finding ways
that we can help people who havebeen trained and who are
experienced and good and godlypeople who are in ministry,
(02:17):
helping them to have a sustainedministry across their lifetimes
.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Now there's a high sense of purpose in Christian
ministry, high sense of personalsatisfaction.
We actually see people maketurning decisions for Jesus
Christ, trusting him, switchingfrom hell to heaven and walking
forward in discipleship.
And yet there are stresses andstrains.
That's associated with burnoutand ill health, perhaps more
(02:42):
than quite a few otherprofessions with burnout and ill
health, perhaps more than quitea few other professions.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, it is interesting to see the research
around burnout in particular,and you're quite right that
people who are in ministryrecognise the great sense of
meaning attached to their roles,and yet the levels of burnout
are significant 23% of Christianleaders.
(03:07):
You say in your PhD yeah, sothere was a study done in 2001,
so some time ago now ofAustralian ministry workers that
showed that 23% of them weresuffering from burnout, and then
there were a further 56% ofthem that were borderline or
approaching burnout.
So you know we're looking.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Some days it's going great and other days.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, and we're looking at like that's a
significant number of people.
There was a study done in theStates that showed 65% of
ministry or clergy wereexperiencing levels of burnout
that were concerning, so it's abig issue.
It's not the only professionvocation that experiences levels
(03:56):
of burnout.
We also see that the levels ofburnout that we see in ministry
are not as severe as people whoare in emergency services,
people in the police, who servein that way.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
I mean, I'm thinking compassion, fatigue when you say
those two things.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, and they're right on the front line.
They're dealing both with thephysical and the emotional
aspects of those roles, andthey're getting more compassion
fatigue than us.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
yeah, yes, yeah, and they're experiencing burnout.
What are the other ones thatare higher than ministry?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Well, so they're the primary ones.
So emergency personnel.
So this was a study done byAdams in 2017, looking at a
meta-analysis of a wholedifferent range of helping
professions, and so emergencypersonnel were up there.
Clergy were at similar levelsto teachers and the experiences
(04:53):
that teachers have of burnout.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I mean that's interesting.
I mean, when you think of thecategories that I think you gave
us blurry work-life boundaries,unrelenting ministry demands,
ministry stresses, personalcriticism, role ambiguity,
boundary ambiguity, relationalconflicts, oh and high
expectations and personalcriticism I can see some overlap
between the teaching professionand the ministry profession
(05:18):
under those headings.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
And the blurring of lines.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I think also there's a Teachers don't get so many
phone calls at night.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
No, that's true.
That's true, that's true.
But the connection to thepeople that you're serving, I
think, is there as well.
Interestingly, the levels ofburnout that we're seeing in
ministry is higher than peoplewho are counsellors.
So there's.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I mean, there's a lot more self-revelation in
ministry and people know youbetter.
They know you where you live.
I'm actually trying to bevulnerable in my sermons.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Absolutely, and so you've mentioned some of the
stressors that people who are inministry face there, stressors
that people who are in ministryface there.
I look at sort of fourdifferent areas around, looking
at the workload itself.
So the workload is not just theamount of work but the rapid
(06:19):
switching between the tasks.
So in any given day somebody inministry might move from having
a prayer meeting to counsellingsomebody who is grieving to
doing a strategy planning day.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
An interview on the pastor's heart to a work in
progress.
Meeting with my administrator.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Absolutely to going and buying a vacuum cleaner
because you know, or you know,or you know doing repairs.
So, you know, like any numberof different things that you
might move to and from in agiven day.
So work demands.
Then there are the emotionaldemands that are associated with
that, the vicarious trauma asyou walk alongside people.
(06:58):
There's.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
How does I mean your big question?
Was how does self-reflectionactually work to build
resilience?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, that's the multimillion-dollar question,
isn't it?
I wish it weremultimillion-dollar.
You gave it 10,000 words, justgive us just a few seconds.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Sorry, 100,000 words, yeah, yeah, that's right that's
right.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
So look, the challenge out there is to.
We think self-reflection is areally great thing and
oftentimes it's touted as youknow, the silver bullet that's
going to solve all our issues,and it is a really helpful uh
process to engage in.
And yet, as you mentioned atthe beginning, it's not the be
all and end all, because theresearch is showing that
(07:45):
self-reflection has a reallyambiguous relationship with
mental health outcomes, and so Iwas investigating what is the
relationship betweenself-reflection and resilience.
There's a paper that Chapnalland Campbell put out in 1999.
So again a long time ago, butreally what they were laying out
(08:08):
and setting out this logicproblem.
That said, typically we thinkthat self-reflection leads to
self-knowledge and thatself-knowledge leads to positive
mental wellbeing, healthoutcomes.
So A leads toledge, leads topositive mental wellbeing,
health outcomes.
So A leads to B, leads to C.
So they ran this study and theyfound that A did lead to B.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
A self-knowledge I got.
Self-reflection led toself-knowledge.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah, so self-reflection did lead to
self-knowledge, butself-knowledge well, but
self-reflection was notpositively associated with
self-knowledge.
Uh, good mental health outcomes.
So because I might spiral down,or yeah, well, so this is, this
is the, the, the question I,and so what I was trying to do
(08:58):
is to unpack okay, if a doesn'tlead to, if a leads to b but not
to c, what's going on in thatthat logic?
that helps to explain it and yousurveyed 250 of us and found
out yeah, so what we found wasthat we don't want to just think
about reflection in and ofitself.
We want reflection to lead toinsight, because insight is
(09:21):
critical to gain, to lead topositive mental health.
But we want to be reallycareful of rumination, because
rumination is a maladaptive formof self-insight and rumination
is also so.
Maladaption is like broodypondering or gloomy pondering.
(09:45):
It's that negative,perseverative thinking, it's
just going over and over.
What could I have done?
What should I have done?
Why do these things happen tome, that sort of brooding that
happens.
And so when we engage inself-reflection, we've got to be
(10:05):
careful not to engage in thatmaladaptive form of it.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I mean, I did something wrong a few weeks ago
and I mean, just as you saythere, I think I kind of chewed
on it for 48 hours, you know,and longer, you know why, did I
do that.
Wow, yeah, I presume that'snormal.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
It's quite a natural thing to do and actually what we
want to do with so the naturalspark in us to think through.
We don't tend to think throughour successful outcomes, our
successful coping experiences,because they've just gone well,
so there's nothing that kicks us, that says, hold on a second.
I'm not satisfied with the wayI engaged in that situation.
(10:51):
So that inkling to engage inreflection is a good thing to do
, and so what we want to do isto ensure that the reflection
that we do engage in leads toinsight, so that as you engage
in that thought process, thatyou're learning something from
(11:12):
the experience, that you're notbeing stuck in that one
experience just going over andover the negative side, but
they're actually gaining aninsight into it.
Thinking through.
Well, perhaps that's a triggerfor me.
Perhaps that certain episodeled me to my experience of that
sort of situation means that Ineed to try different coping
(11:36):
strategies or differentmechanisms to deal with that, or
maybe so there are all sorts ofdifferent insights that you
might gain from it.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
It would be worse if I didn't even realise I'd done
the wrong thing Absolutelyabsolutely, and so you want to
use those situations.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
So the process that we were training the ministry
workers in in one of the papersI ran a trial with 254
Australian Protestant ministryworkers.
What we were training them todo there was actually to engage
in adaptive self-reflection.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
So what's adaptive self-reflection mean?
Because that's a word, a phrasethat came up many times in your
PhD.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, yeah, and it's to differentiate it from
maladaptive self-reflection.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Essentially good and bad.
Yeah, yeah, goodself-reflection.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Helpful and unhelpful .
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Resilience is all abouteffective adaptation, learning
how to deal with new situations,coping with those situations,
and so, in order to reflect well, adaptive self-reflection is
(12:48):
helping people to systematicallymove through a series of
processes, and we talk about itin three key areas.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Just give me an example.
I mean tell me about let's talkabout, I don't know, pastor
Alvin, and what did he do wrongand how did he cope with it?
Speaker 2 (13:08):
well, Okay, well, so Pastor Alvin, if I'm doing some
reflection with Pastor Alvin, Iwant him to move through three
stages.
I want him to self-assess orbecome self-aware, so he what's
he done wrong and does he knowit?
He's had an argument with.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
His boss.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yes, with his boss and they've had a difference of
opinion and he's come awayfeeling really uncomfortable.
And that uncomfortable feelingis a good thing, because it's
highlighting for him thatsomething's not right.
So we want to help him tobecome self-aware in that moment
(13:50):
and reflect on that, to thinkthrough how did he engage in
that interaction with his boss,what were the things that he
said?
What were the things that hisboss said?
How did he feel in that moment?
What were the emotions thatwere going on for him?
What were the thoughts that hewas having in that moment?
(14:11):
What was the context that hewas experiencing?
And perhaps even what does heperceive of the context of his
boss in that moment?
So what's his awareness of thatsituation?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
So that can often be the place where we get stuck and
we just If he thinks about well, actually his boss is really
stressed about his kid and so hemay actually cut him some more
slack, or something like that.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, yeah, but equally thinking through his own
situation.
What's going on for him?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
And maybe I'm not handling it my best because my
kid's got me.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Exactly, but also, as he's reflecting, helping him to
start to learn what's going onin his head in those moments.
Has he got unhelpful thoughtpatterns in the way that he is
perceiving his boss, or what'she feeling?
Am I feeling angry, starting toput some language around his
(15:06):
feelings?
So getting some good emotionalvocabulary there as well?
So we want to help people tobecome aware in the moment.
But, as I say, you can getstuck in that self-awareness
phase and we want to move peoplebeyond that into an evaluative
piece and so we want to start toweigh up and help people to
(15:31):
reflect on.
So, if it's Alvin, what was itthat was helpful that he did in
that situation?
What worked for him?
Did he ask some good questions?
What was effective about theway he coped in that situation?
(15:51):
But also ask questions whatdidn't work so well for me, as
I'm evaluating how I engaged inthat situation.
Equally, how does my behaviourthere line up with my values?
And is the way that I behavedin that situation?
(16:14):
Is that the sort of person Ireally want to be?
Could I have demonstrated myvalues differently?
Might I have preferred to havebehaved in a different way?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
So actually, as you're talking, I think I'm
getting that it's not so muchthe topic that I'm analysing,
it's the way I'm analysing thetopic.
Yes, yes.
I mean there are moments Ithink, oh, as I reflect on that,
I was awesome, or as I reflecton that I was terrible.
I mean it's actually probablythe I was terrible ones that I'm
(16:52):
going to learn most from.
But it's how I analyse the Iwas terrible.
Is that I'm just reflective,listening back when I'm hearing
you?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
say it, to focus on the situations that we feel that
we've been unsuccessful in ourcoping, or whether or not it's
better to focus on thesituations that we've been
successful in.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And what was the answer?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
The answer is you want a bit of both.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Right, okay.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
But just before we move on to that, the third part
of that process that we wantpeople to reflect through is we
want to move from self-awarenessto evaluation and then finally
to development.
So, equally, we don't want to,so we want to understand.
We want Alvin to understand howhe got into that situation,
what happened then.
(17:46):
We want him to evaluate whetheror not this is really how he
wants to live out his life,whether or not there were
situations you know was ithelpful or not.
And then, finally, we want tohelp Alvin to start to think
through okay, next time I'm in asimilar situation, how might I
act differently, so that I canstart to plan for the future and
(18:07):
I can actually learn from thatsituation?
So I don't just go oh well, Ididn't handle it that well.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
So what we're actually talking about is
self-reflection training inorder to promote better
resilience for me.
Now.
Okay, I'm imagining, if youlike, there's a Rolls-Royce
model of this and there's a DIYmodel of this.
So there'll be some people whogo to a counsellor and get help
doing the Rolls-Royce model andthere'll be some of us who want
(18:37):
to do a DIY.
Let's talk both Rolls-Royce andDIY, sure sure.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Really, what I was doing in the trial was trying
was I wasn't teaching people anyspecific techniques to be more
resilient or to demonstrateresilience.
Really, what we were teachingpeople to do was to engage in
reflection, so that it's not aone-size.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
You're really encouraging DIY, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
And we want people to learn how to reflect well and
as people reflect well.
It's a really normal, naturalprocess of learning that we're
trying to help people throughhere, as they learn what works
for them, what situations.
So the way that you and I willrespond to the same stressful
(19:29):
situation is likely to bedifferent, given our past
histories, our makeup, all ofthose different things, and so
the way that I learned to copewith one event will be different
to the way that you learn tocope with an event.
And so it's about growing inself-awareness and learning
which strategies.
So we look at three differentresilient capacities.
(19:53):
We want people to grow inresources.
We want people to understandwhat assets that they have that
they can bring to a situation.
So that's resources.
We want people to grow in theircoping and emotional regulation
.
Repertoire Sounds long andconvoluted, but basically what
are the strategies that you usein difficult situations to help
(20:16):
you through that situation?
So strategies, resources,strategies and, finally, beliefs
.
So what are the mindsets thatyou bring with you to help you
to become or to demonstrate moreresilience?
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Okay, help me Train.
Train me in resources,strategies and beliefs.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Okay, well, so resources they're the things
that we often talk about.
So we want to have physicalresources, we want to have, you
know, in order to cope well inany situation, we want to have
good sleep and good diet and allof those things.
So, physical resources,spiritual resources, want to
make sure that we're beingregular in our Bible reading, in
(20:56):
our prayer, in our fellowshipwith others, that we're building
our spiritual resources, butalso our emotional resources,
our social resources.
So they're all practicalresources.
So one very helpful resource isboth time and money and with
(21:18):
these resources, they're, ineffect, they're assets that you
can use to deal with difficultexperiences.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
I mean, I find, as you say, that I feel like my
ability to cope with situationsis directly inversely
proportional to how long I hadholiday ago.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
It's a holiday resort , so yeah, yeah, absolutely, and
you know where your mentalstate is at that time.
Yeah how relaxed you are.
So there's a whole range ofresources that we want to be
constantly renewing.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
We don't want to like when we go through hard times,
we use up these assets and weneed to, whether or not the
holiday was an exhaustingholiday or a refreshing holiday.
Yes, absolutely, absolutelySorry, keep going.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, so what we want to be able to do is to not let
those resources deplete.
We want to renew thoseresources and I think that
within the ministry space, we'vebeen pretty good at recognising
the need to renew our resourcesand to recognise the resources
that we have.
So that's a really good thing.
(22:28):
I think sometimes when we'rethinking about resilience though
I think sometimes when we'rethinking about resilience though
, we're perhaps less able toidentify what are the coping
strategies that we tend to useor the emotional regulatory
capacities that we have.
So when Alvin is in his toughtime dealing with his boss, how
(22:50):
is he actually going to go atdealing with that really hard
conversation?
Has he got good skills andtechniques for dealing with
conflict?
Has he grown in hisinterpersonal skills to be able
to handle and manage thatsituation, but also his own
(23:11):
emotional regulatory repertoire?
So, if he's angry aboutsomething, how does he manage
his anger in the moment?
Has he got techniques like,actually, right now, I recognise
that I'm feeling quite stressedat the moment he's thinking in
his head.
I'm recognising, I'm noticingwhat's happening for me in the
(23:32):
moment and I'm thinking okay,well, what are my options here?
You know I can lose it.
If Alvin's sitting therethinking he can lose it with his
boss, equally, he might say tohis boss I'm feeling quite
stressed at the moment.
Do you mind if I go and take amoment, if I just go and get a
glass of water and we can comeback and have the conversation.
(23:52):
Go and take a moment, if I justgo and get a glass of water and
we can come back and have theconversation.
Or you know, what otherstrategies does he have for
dealing with that, theparticular situation that he's
coping with?
And so when we're asking peopleto reflect on those situations,
we want them to think throughwhat are the strategies that
work well for them and how canthey develop new strategies so
(24:14):
they can become more nuanced.
We tend to have some strategiesthat are the go-to strategies
that we use.
that we've learnt that work, butnot every strategy is going to
work in every situation.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
So what are some of the strategies?
And I guess I mean, as you werejust describing the pastor
relating to his boss?
I mean also, there arestrategies for the team leader
relating to their team membersso help me with a few strategy
ideas that you suggest to people.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Oh look, there's such a range, depending on the
situation.
So I mean we think aboutstrategies, both in terms of
problem-solving strategies andemotional strategies, so we can
think through.
Look, some of the strategiesthat people use are adaptive and
some are maladaptive as well.
(25:07):
So some strategies might bethings like just asking for time
, having some good questions toask, or even just thinking
through the strategies sorry,the questions that you might
have in advance of going to ameeting, being prepared for a
(25:29):
meeting, so that you canacknowledge how a particular
situation might be difficult foryou, so that you've thought in
advance of options that youmight use.
But in a meeting or in aninteraction with somebody, for
example, I was speaking to oneperson who, in the course of
(25:50):
doing the reflection, theyremembered that in the past they
used to use coloured pens whenthey were in a meeting because
it was helpful for them to andit lined up with the values, the
creative values and theirstrengths around using coloured
(26:12):
pens to help them think throughthe course of a meeting.
They had forgotten that theyused to do that and even just
reflecting on that situation ofa difficult meeting that they
had been in meant that theyremembered that was a strategy
that I used to use.
Perhaps I should reuse thatstrategy.
Can I bring that back into theway I engage?
(26:33):
in this situation, but equallysome strategies.
So planning is a good strategy.
Some strategies that peoplewill use in the moment are
things like procrastination.
Is it a good strategy?
Like there's debate aroundwhether or not it's a good
strategy.
You might think actually that'sa maladaptive strategy, surely.
(26:57):
But there is some evidence tosuggest that in some instances
procrastination can be helpfulwhen you're still information
gathering, when the situation isunclear, or if it gives you
time to deal with anothersituation.
There are some copingstrategies that are clearly
(27:22):
unhelpful.
So, for example, we look atthings like using alcohol to
numb the pain of an emotionalexperience or using pornography
in the same way.
So these are all strategiesthat people use to deal with the
situations that they're facedwith.
(27:42):
They can be helpful orunhelpful.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Just for the record.
Pornography is unhelpful,Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
But in terms of, there's a multitude of good
strategies as well, and eventhings like prayer.
We think about prayer as astrategy that, or typically, we
think about prayer as a resourcefor building our spiritual
resources, and it is that.
But it is also a strategy thatwe can use in the moment to deal
(28:11):
with a specific situation thatwe can take.
Take this immediate moment toGod and ask for his help.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
So she had first one resources, second strategy,
third Third is beliefs.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
okay, and so this one .
It is impacted by ourtheological beliefs, and it goes
to the core of what we believeabout ourselves and our ability
to deal with difficult events,and so these beliefs are around
(28:50):
what we think of ourselves, whatwe think about other people,
the way that the world works,and so some examples of these
sorts of beliefs are things likeself-efficacy and agency, like
optimism and hope.
So, for example, if I believethat I can usually find a
(29:18):
solution to most situations, Ihave this core belief about
myself that I have some efficacyhere.
I am more likely to demonstratea resilient outcome in that
case because I have this belief,which means I'm going to go
(29:39):
looking for options.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
And probably I've got that belief because I've had a
track record of mostly it kindof working out yeah and then I
can come up with a range ofoptions to deal with the
situation.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
And so I have this belief, and so I go ahead and
act, operate in that belief, butif I, if, if my belief about
myself is that I'm actuallyreally bad at coming up with
solutions, then I'm far lesslikely to go looking for
solutions.
(30:11):
Um, so that's one example.
Another example might be that Ibelieve that people are mostly
out for my good, and so werecognise that all people are
sinful.
But the way that people willgenerally operate is that you
know they're not out to get meand that they really want to
(30:34):
engage in relationship, and soif I'm in a tough spot, I'm more
likely to go and seek some kindof relatedness or to engage
other people or to seek theirhelp in that situation, whereas
if my belief is that in thatsituation, whereas if my belief
(30:57):
is that no people are generallyagainst me, then I'm far less
likely to go and seek help fromthem, and so when we're asking
people to reflect on what'sgoing on, part of that first
stage in that self-awarenesspiece is to think through what
was I thinking in that moment,what's going on in my head that
(31:20):
causes or leads me to engage ina certain sort of way?
Is it perhaps because the beliefthat I hold about myself and
the way that the world works isactually hindering me from
engaging in a more resilient way, from engaging in strategies
(31:44):
and techniques that will help meto demonstrate resilience?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
I have a zillion more questions, but we're out of
time.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Oh, I'm only just getting started, Dominic.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Thank you so much for coming in and talking to us on
the Pastor's Heart today.
Kirsty Bucknell's been my guest.
She has just completed her PhDinto this whole area of how
self-reflection or best practiceself-reflection can help us
grow in resilience as ministryworkers.
We'll put a couple of links onthe show notes to this program
(32:19):
to some of the public andpublished areas of her PhD
research and so you can go andcheck that out.
My name's Don McSteel.
We'll look forward to yourcompany on the Pastor's Heart
next Tuesday afternoon.
it is the pastor's heart and today, improving
self-reflection to strengthenresilience in ministry workers
with kirsty bucknell.
A new study shows the trainingin systematic self-reflection
will work for the development ofresilience among ministry
workers.
Ministry workers are at risk ofstress-related ill health.
Self-reflective resiliencetraining is beneficial to those
(00:32):
in ministry roles and programsin this area can minimise the
risk of stress-related illhealth.
But not all self-reflection isequalie Bucknell has engaged in
a survey and a trial of asignificant number of Australian
Protestant ministry workers,analysing the relationship
between self-reflection andmental health outcomes.
(00:55):
She's also explored therelationship between
self-reflective writings andsuccessful coping and
unsuccessful coping.
She works as an organisationalpsychologist at the Centre for
Ministry Development at Sydney'sMoore Theological College.
She's just completed her PhD onthis subject and she's here
with us on the Pastor's Heart toshare her findings.
(01:16):
Kirsty, let's start with yourpastor's heart, and you have
spent a significant amount oftime and energy significant
portion of your life researchingresilience amongst ministry
workers because I take it youcare about us.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
That's so true, dominic.
That's very true, thank you.
I have worked with the Centrefor Ministry Development for
some time, and working alongsidepastors highlighted for me the
many stresses and demands thatpeople who are in ministry are
under, and as an organisationalpsychologist, I thought surely
(01:56):
there's something more I can bedoing and surely there's
something that we can be doingto support people who are in
ministry.
And so that was my heart fordoing this work is finding ways
that we can help people who havebeen trained and who are
experienced and good and godlypeople who are in ministry,
(02:17):
helping them to have a sustainedministry across their lifetimes
.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Now there's a high sense of purpose in Christian
ministry, high sense of personalsatisfaction.
We actually see people maketurning decisions for Jesus
Christ, trusting him, switchingfrom hell to heaven and walking
forward in discipleship.
And yet there are stresses andstrains.
That's associated with burnoutand ill health, perhaps more
(02:42):
than quite a few otherprofessions with burnout and ill
health, perhaps more than quitea few other professions.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, it is interesting to see the research
around burnout in particular,and you're quite right that
people who are in ministryrecognise the great sense of
meaning attached to their roles,and yet the levels of burnout
are significant 23% of Christianleaders.
(03:07):
You say in your PhD yeah, sothere was a study done in 2001,
so some time ago now ofAustralian ministry workers that
showed that 23% of them weresuffering from burnout, and then
there were a further 56% ofthem that were borderline or
approaching burnout.
So you know we're looking.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Some days it's going great and other days.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, and we're looking at like that's a
significant number of people.
There was a study done in theStates that showed 65% of
ministry or clergy wereexperiencing levels of burnout
that were concerning, so it's abig issue.
It's not the only professionvocation that experiences levels
(03:56):
of burnout.
We also see that the levels ofburnout that we see in ministry
are not as severe as people whoare in emergency services,
people in the police, who servein that way.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
I mean, I'm thinking compassion, fatigue when you say
those two things.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, and they're right on the front line.
They're dealing both with thephysical and the emotional
aspects of those roles, andthey're getting more compassion
fatigue than us.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
yeah, yes, yeah, and they're experiencing burnout.
What are the other ones thatare higher than ministry?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Well, so they're the primary ones.
So emergency personnel.
So this was a study done byAdams in 2017, looking at a
meta-analysis of a wholedifferent range of helping
professions, and so emergencypersonnel were up there.
Clergy were at similar levelsto teachers and the experiences
(04:53):
that teachers have of burnout.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I mean that's interesting.
I mean, when you think of thecategories that I think you gave
us blurry work-life boundaries,unrelenting ministry demands,
ministry stresses, personalcriticism, role ambiguity,
boundary ambiguity, relationalconflicts, oh and high
expectations and personalcriticism I can see some overlap
between the teaching professionand the ministry profession
(05:18):
under those headings.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
And the blurring of lines.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I think also there's a Teachers don't get so many
phone calls at night.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
No, that's true.
That's true, that's true.
But the connection to thepeople that you're serving, I
think, is there as well.
Interestingly, the levels ofburnout that we're seeing in
ministry is higher than peoplewho are counsellors.
So there's.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I mean, there's a lot more self-revelation in
ministry and people know youbetter.
They know you where you live.
I'm actually trying to bevulnerable in my sermons.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Absolutely, and so you've mentioned some of the
stressors that people who are inministry face there, stressors
that people who are in ministryface there.
I look at sort of fourdifferent areas around, looking
at the workload itself.
So the workload is not just theamount of work but the rapid
(06:19):
switching between the tasks.
So in any given day somebody inministry might move from having
a prayer meeting to counsellingsomebody who is grieving to
doing a strategy planning day.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
An interview on the pastor's heart to a work in
progress.
Meeting with my administrator.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Absolutely to going and buying a vacuum cleaner
because you know, or you know,or you know doing repairs.
So, you know, like any numberof different things that you
might move to and from in agiven day.
So work demands.
Then there are the emotionaldemands that are associated with
that, the vicarious trauma asyou walk alongside people.
(06:58):
There's.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
How does I mean your big question?
Was how does self-reflectionactually work to build
resilience?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, that's the multimillion-dollar question,
isn't it?
I wish it weremultimillion-dollar.
You gave it 10,000 words, justgive us just a few seconds.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Sorry, 100,000 words, yeah, yeah, that's right that's
right.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
So look, the challenge out there is to.
We think self-reflection is areally great thing and
oftentimes it's touted as youknow, the silver bullet that's
going to solve all our issues,and it is a really helpful uh
process to engage in.
And yet, as you mentioned atthe beginning, it's not the be
all and end all, because theresearch is showing that
(07:45):
self-reflection has a reallyambiguous relationship with
mental health outcomes, and so Iwas investigating what is the
relationship betweenself-reflection and resilience.
There's a paper that Chapnalland Campbell put out in 1999.
So again a long time ago, butreally what they were laying out
(08:08):
and setting out this logicproblem.
That said, typically we thinkthat self-reflection leads to
self-knowledge and thatself-knowledge leads to positive
mental wellbeing, healthoutcomes.
So A leads toledge, leads topositive mental wellbeing,
health outcomes.
So A leads to B, leads to C.
So they ran this study and theyfound that A did lead to B.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
A self-knowledge I got.
Self-reflection led toself-knowledge.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah, so self-reflection did lead to
self-knowledge, butself-knowledge well, but
self-reflection was notpositively associated with
self-knowledge.
Uh, good mental health outcomes.
So because I might spiral down,or yeah, well, so this is, this
is the, the, the question I,and so what I was trying to do
(08:58):
is to unpack okay, if a doesn'tlead to, if a leads to b but not
to c, what's going on in thatthat logic?
that helps to explain it and yousurveyed 250 of us and found
out yeah, so what we found wasthat we don't want to just think
about reflection in and ofitself.
We want reflection to lead toinsight, because insight is
(09:21):
critical to gain, to lead topositive mental health.
But we want to be reallycareful of rumination, because
rumination is a maladaptive formof self-insight and rumination
is also so.
Maladaption is like broodypondering or gloomy pondering.
(09:45):
It's that negative,perseverative thinking, it's
just going over and over.
What could I have done?
What should I have done?
Why do these things happen tome, that sort of brooding that
happens.
And so when we engage inself-reflection, we've got to be
(10:05):
careful not to engage in thatmaladaptive form of it.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I mean, I did something wrong a few weeks ago
and I mean, just as you saythere, I think I kind of chewed
on it for 48 hours, you know,and longer, you know why, did I
do that.
Wow, yeah, I presume that'snormal.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
It's quite a natural thing to do and actually what we
want to do with so the naturalspark in us to think through.
We don't tend to think throughour successful outcomes, our
successful coping experiences,because they've just gone well,
so there's nothing that kicks us, that says, hold on a second.
I'm not satisfied with the wayI engaged in that situation.
(10:51):
So that inkling to engage inreflection is a good thing to do
, and so what we want to do isto ensure that the reflection
that we do engage in leads toinsight, so that as you engage
in that thought process, thatyou're learning something from
(11:12):
the experience, that you're notbeing stuck in that one
experience just going over andover the negative side, but
they're actually gaining aninsight into it.
Thinking through.
Well, perhaps that's a triggerfor me.
Perhaps that certain episodeled me to my experience of that
sort of situation means that Ineed to try different coping
(11:36):
strategies or differentmechanisms to deal with that, or
maybe so there are all sorts ofdifferent insights that you
might gain from it.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
It would be worse if I didn't even realise I'd done
the wrong thing Absolutelyabsolutely, and so you want to
use those situations.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
So the process that we were training the ministry
workers in in one of the papersI ran a trial with 254
Australian Protestant ministryworkers.
What we were training them todo there was actually to engage
in adaptive self-reflection.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
So what's adaptive self-reflection mean?
Because that's a word, a phrasethat came up many times in your
PhD.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, yeah, and it's to differentiate it from
maladaptive self-reflection.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Essentially good and bad.
Yeah, yeah, goodself-reflection.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Helpful and unhelpful .
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Resilience is all abouteffective adaptation, learning
how to deal with new situations,coping with those situations,
and so, in order to reflect well, adaptive self-reflection is
(12:48):
helping people to systematicallymove through a series of
processes, and we talk about itin three key areas.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Just give me an example.
I mean tell me about let's talkabout, I don't know, pastor
Alvin, and what did he do wrongand how did he cope with it?
Speaker 2 (13:08):
well, Okay, well, so Pastor Alvin, if I'm doing some
reflection with Pastor Alvin, Iwant him to move through three
stages.
I want him to self-assess orbecome self-aware, so he what's
he done wrong and does he knowit?
He's had an argument with.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
His boss.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yes, with his boss and they've had a difference of
opinion and he's come awayfeeling really uncomfortable.
And that uncomfortable feelingis a good thing, because it's
highlighting for him thatsomething's not right.
So we want to help him tobecome self-aware in that moment
(13:50):
and reflect on that, to thinkthrough how did he engage in
that interaction with his boss,what were the things that he
said?
What were the things that hisboss said?
How did he feel in that moment?
What were the emotions thatwere going on for him?
What were the thoughts that hewas having in that moment?
(14:11):
What was the context that hewas experiencing?
And perhaps even what does heperceive of the context of his
boss in that moment?
So what's his awareness of thatsituation?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
So that can often be the place where we get stuck and
we just If he thinks about well, actually his boss is really
stressed about his kid and so hemay actually cut him some more
slack, or something like that.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, yeah, but equally thinking through his own
situation.
What's going on for him?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
And maybe I'm not handling it my best because my
kid's got me.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Exactly, but also, as he's reflecting, helping him to
start to learn what's going onin his head in those moments.
Has he got unhelpful thoughtpatterns in the way that he is
perceiving his boss, or what'she feeling?
Am I feeling angry, starting toput some language around his
(15:06):
feelings?
So getting some good emotionalvocabulary there as well?
So we want to help people tobecome aware in the moment.
But, as I say, you can getstuck in that self-awareness
phase and we want to move peoplebeyond that into an evaluative
piece and so we want to start toweigh up and help people to
(15:31):
reflect on.
So, if it's Alvin, what was itthat was helpful that he did in
that situation?
What worked for him?
Did he ask some good questions?
What was effective about theway he coped in that situation?
(15:51):
But also ask questions whatdidn't work so well for me, as
I'm evaluating how I engaged inthat situation.
Equally, how does my behaviourthere line up with my values?
And is the way that I behavedin that situation?
(16:14):
Is that the sort of person Ireally want to be?
Could I have demonstrated myvalues differently?
Might I have preferred to havebehaved in a different way?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
So actually, as you're talking, I think I'm
getting that it's not so muchthe topic that I'm analysing,
it's the way I'm analysing thetopic.
Yes, yes.
I mean there are moments Ithink, oh, as I reflect on that,
I was awesome, or as I reflecton that I was terrible.
I mean it's actually probablythe I was terrible ones that I'm
(16:52):
going to learn most from.
But it's how I analyse the Iwas terrible.
Is that I'm just reflective,listening back when I'm hearing
you?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
say it, to focus on the situations that we feel that
we've been unsuccessful in ourcoping, or whether or not it's
better to focus on thesituations that we've been
successful in.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And what was the answer?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
The answer is you want a bit of both.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Right, okay.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
But just before we move on to that, the third part
of that process that we wantpeople to reflect through is we
want to move from self-awarenessto evaluation and then finally
to development.
So, equally, we don't want to,so we want to understand.
We want Alvin to understand howhe got into that situation,
what happened then.
(17:46):
We want him to evaluate whetheror not this is really how he
wants to live out his life,whether or not there were
situations you know was ithelpful or not.
And then, finally, we want tohelp Alvin to start to think
through okay, next time I'm in asimilar situation, how might I
act differently, so that I canstart to plan for the future and
(18:07):
I can actually learn from thatsituation?
So I don't just go oh well, Ididn't handle it that well.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
So what we're actually talking about is
self-reflection training inorder to promote better
resilience for me.
Now.
Okay, I'm imagining, if youlike, there's a Rolls-Royce
model of this and there's a DIYmodel of this.
So there'll be some people whogo to a counsellor and get help
doing the Rolls-Royce model andthere'll be some of us who want
(18:37):
to do a DIY.
Let's talk both Rolls-Royce andDIY, sure sure.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Really, what I was doing in the trial was trying
was I wasn't teaching people anyspecific techniques to be more
resilient or to demonstrateresilience.
Really, what we were teachingpeople to do was to engage in
reflection, so that it's not aone-size.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
You're really encouraging DIY, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
And we want people to learn how to reflect well and
as people reflect well.
It's a really normal, naturalprocess of learning that we're
trying to help people throughhere, as they learn what works
for them, what situations.
So the way that you and I willrespond to the same stressful
(19:29):
situation is likely to bedifferent, given our past
histories, our makeup, all ofthose different things, and so
the way that I learned to copewith one event will be different
to the way that you learn tocope with an event.
And so it's about growing inself-awareness and learning
which strategies.
So we look at three differentresilient capacities.
(19:53):
We want people to grow inresources.
We want people to understandwhat assets that they have that
they can bring to a situation.
So that's resources.
We want people to grow in theircoping and emotional regulation
.
Repertoire Sounds long andconvoluted, but basically what
are the strategies that you usein difficult situations to help
(20:16):
you through that situation?
So strategies, resources,strategies and, finally, beliefs
.
So what are the mindsets thatyou bring with you to help you
to become or to demonstrate moreresilience?
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Okay, help me Train.
Train me in resources,strategies and beliefs.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Okay, well, so resources they're the things
that we often talk about.
So we want to have physicalresources, we want to have, you
know, in order to cope well inany situation, we want to have
good sleep and good diet and allof those things.
So, physical resources,spiritual resources, want to
make sure that we're beingregular in our Bible reading, in
(20:56):
our prayer, in our fellowshipwith others, that we're building
our spiritual resources, butalso our emotional resources,
our social resources.
So they're all practicalresources.
So one very helpful resource isboth time and money and with
(21:18):
these resources, they're, ineffect, they're assets that you
can use to deal with difficultexperiences.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
I mean, I find, as you say, that I feel like my
ability to cope with situationsis directly inversely
proportional to how long I hadholiday ago.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
It's a holiday resort , so yeah, yeah, absolutely, and
you know where your mentalstate is at that time.
Yeah how relaxed you are.
So there's a whole range ofresources that we want to be
constantly renewing.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
We don't want to like when we go through hard times,
we use up these assets and weneed to, whether or not the
holiday was an exhaustingholiday or a refreshing holiday.
Yes, absolutely, absolutelySorry, keep going.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, so what we want to be able to do is to not let
those resources deplete.
We want to renew thoseresources and I think that
within the ministry space, we'vebeen pretty good at recognising
the need to renew our resourcesand to recognise the resources
that we have.
So that's a really good thing.
(22:28):
I think sometimes when we'rethinking about resilience though
I think sometimes when we'rethinking about resilience though
, we're perhaps less able toidentify what are the coping
strategies that we tend to useor the emotional regulatory
capacities that we have.
So when Alvin is in his toughtime dealing with his boss, how
(22:50):
is he actually going to go atdealing with that really hard
conversation?
Has he got good skills andtechniques for dealing with
conflict?
Has he grown in hisinterpersonal skills to be able
to handle and manage thatsituation, but also his own
(23:11):
emotional regulatory repertoire?
So, if he's angry aboutsomething, how does he manage
his anger in the moment?
Has he got techniques like,actually, right now, I recognise
that I'm feeling quite stressedat the moment he's thinking in
his head.
I'm recognising, I'm noticingwhat's happening for me in the
(23:32):
moment and I'm thinking okay,well, what are my options here?
You know I can lose it.
If Alvin's sitting therethinking he can lose it with his
boss, equally, he might say tohis boss I'm feeling quite
stressed at the moment.
Do you mind if I go and take amoment, if I just go and get a
glass of water and we can comeback and have the conversation.
(23:52):
Go and take a moment, if I justgo and get a glass of water and
we can come back and have theconversation.
Or you know, what otherstrategies does he have for
dealing with that, theparticular situation that he's
coping with?
And so when we're asking peopleto reflect on those situations,
we want them to think throughwhat are the strategies that
work well for them and how canthey develop new strategies so
(24:14):
they can become more nuanced.
We tend to have some strategiesthat are the go-to strategies
that we use.
that we've learnt that work, butnot every strategy is going to
work in every situation.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
So what are some of the strategies?
And I guess I mean, as you werejust describing the pastor
relating to his boss?
I mean also, there arestrategies for the team leader
relating to their team membersso help me with a few strategy
ideas that you suggest to people.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Oh look, there's such a range, depending on the
situation.
So I mean we think aboutstrategies, both in terms of
problem-solving strategies andemotional strategies, so we can
think through.
Look, some of the strategiesthat people use are adaptive and
some are maladaptive as well.
(25:07):
So some strategies might bethings like just asking for time
, having some good questions toask, or even just thinking
through the strategies sorry,the questions that you might
have in advance of going to ameeting, being prepared for a
(25:29):
meeting, so that you canacknowledge how a particular
situation might be difficult foryou, so that you've thought in
advance of options that youmight use.
But in a meeting or in aninteraction with somebody, for
example, I was speaking to oneperson who, in the course of
(25:50):
doing the reflection, theyremembered that in the past they
used to use coloured pens whenthey were in a meeting because
it was helpful for them to andit lined up with the values, the
creative values and theirstrengths around using coloured
(26:12):
pens to help them think throughthe course of a meeting.
They had forgotten that theyused to do that and even just
reflecting on that situation ofa difficult meeting that they
had been in meant that theyremembered that was a strategy
that I used to use.
Perhaps I should reuse thatstrategy.
Can I bring that back into theway I engage?
(26:33):
in this situation, but equallysome strategies.
So planning is a good strategy.
Some strategies that peoplewill use in the moment are
things like procrastination.
Is it a good strategy?
Like there's debate aroundwhether or not it's a good
strategy.
You might think actually that'sa maladaptive strategy, surely.
(26:57):
But there is some evidence tosuggest that in some instances
procrastination can be helpfulwhen you're still information
gathering, when the situation isunclear, or if it gives you
time to deal with anothersituation.
There are some copingstrategies that are clearly
(27:22):
unhelpful.
So, for example, we look atthings like using alcohol to
numb the pain of an emotionalexperience or using pornography
in the same way.
So these are all strategiesthat people use to deal with the
situations that they're facedwith.
(27:42):
They can be helpful orunhelpful.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Just for the record.
Pornography is unhelpful,Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
But in terms of, there's a multitude of good
strategies as well, and eventhings like prayer.
We think about prayer as astrategy that, or typically, we
think about prayer as a resourcefor building our spiritual
resources, and it is that.
But it is also a strategy thatwe can use in the moment to deal
(28:11):
with a specific situation thatwe can take.
Take this immediate moment toGod and ask for his help.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
So she had first one resources, second strategy,
third Third is beliefs.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
okay, and so this one .
It is impacted by ourtheological beliefs, and it goes
to the core of what we believeabout ourselves and our ability
to deal with difficult events,and so these beliefs are around
(28:50):
what we think of ourselves, whatwe think about other people,
the way that the world works,and so some examples of these
sorts of beliefs are things likeself-efficacy and agency, like
optimism and hope.
So, for example, if I believethat I can usually find a
(29:18):
solution to most situations, Ihave this core belief about
myself that I have some efficacyhere.
I am more likely to demonstratea resilient outcome in that
case because I have this belief,which means I'm going to go
(29:39):
looking for options.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
And probably I've got that belief because I've had a
track record of mostly it kindof working out yeah and then I
can come up with a range ofoptions to deal with the
situation.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
And so I have this belief, and so I go ahead and
act, operate in that belief, butif I, if, if my belief about
myself is that I'm actuallyreally bad at coming up with
solutions, then I'm far lesslikely to go looking for
solutions.
(30:11):
Um, so that's one example.
Another example might be that Ibelieve that people are mostly
out for my good, and so werecognise that all people are
sinful.
But the way that people willgenerally operate is that you
know they're not out to get meand that they really want to
(30:34):
engage in relationship, and soif I'm in a tough spot, I'm more
likely to go and seek some kindof relatedness or to engage
other people or to seek theirhelp in that situation, whereas
if my belief is that in thatsituation, whereas if my belief
(30:57):
is that no people are generallyagainst me, then I'm far less
likely to go and seek help fromthem, and so when we're asking
people to reflect on what'sgoing on, part of that first
stage in that self-awarenesspiece is to think through what
was I thinking in that moment,what's going on in my head that
(31:20):
causes or leads me to engage ina certain sort of way?
Is it perhaps because the beliefthat I hold about myself and
the way that the world works isactually hindering me from
engaging in a more resilient way, from engaging in strategies
(31:44):
and techniques that will help meto demonstrate resilience?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
I have a zillion more questions, but we're out of
time.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Oh, I'm only just getting started, Dominic.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Thank you so much for coming in and talking to us on
the Pastor's Heart today.
Kirsty Bucknell's been my guest.
She has just completed her PhDinto this whole area of how
self-reflection or best practiceself-reflection can help us
grow in resilience as ministryworkers.
We'll put a couple of links onthe show notes to this program
(32:19):
to some of the public andpublished areas of her PhD
research and so you can go andcheck that out.
My name's Don McSteel.
We'll look forward to yourcompany on the Pastor's Heart
next Tuesday afternoon.
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