November 10, 2025 • 34 mins
Something is happening. In England the data shows a quiet revival. In France a new evangelical church is opening every ten days. But what about here in Australia?
Among young adults we’re hearing stories of renewed interest in Jesus, fresh conversions and surprising openness. Is this a cultural phenomenon or is it something deeper? And how do we ride the wave?
We talk about ground level experiences, the big picture, the influence of politics, and the five percent conversion growth goal for Sydney Anglican churches.
We’re joined by three frontline evangelists:
• Dave Jensen from Sydney Anglican Evangelism and New Churches
• Sam Mahdavi from Wollongong Baptist Church
• Pre Shunmugam from MBM Rooty Hill in multicultural Western Sydney
The Church Co
http://www.thechurchco.com is a website and app platform built specifically for churches.
Advertise on The Pastor's Heart
To advertise on The Pastor's Heart go to thepastorsheart.net/sponsor
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:08):
Can we ride the cultural wave?
Is there a revival among youngadults in Australia?
Dave Jensen, pre-Shunmigan, andSam Madavi are my guests.
It is The Pastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele, and it isclear that there is something
going on.
In England, the statistics arein.
There's something they'recalling it a quiet revival.
Over in France, we're hearingthat an evangelical church is
(00:30):
opening every 10 days.
But what about here inAustralia?
Our guests, well, Dave Jensenleads the evangelism part of the
Sydney Anglicans, Evangelism andNew Churches.
Sam Madavi, he heads upevangelism at Wollongong Baptist
Church, and Pree Shunmigan isthe mission lead and youth
pastor at MBM Rudy Hill inSydney.
(00:52):
Let's start with the pastor'sheart and with you, Pri.
And uh, you are in the heartlandof multiculturalism in Sydney's
West at Rudy Hill.
Um, what's going on on theground among the 70
nationalities or so that arepart of your network?
SPEAKER_04 (01:09):
Yeah, like you said, like we've definitely noticed uh
and heightening interest inpeople coming into church.
So, you know, across allservices from morning until 5
p.m., people walking in, comingto check out what's going on at
MBM.
Uh, but particularly in our 5p.m.
service, uh, we've noticed asthere's a lot more young adults
coming in and a lot more of ourpeople just bringing their
(01:32):
friends along.
Uh, we have like an OSTAG teamthat's just sort of started up,
or they've been going for a yearor so, but about three rows off
our um of the seating that isjust filled with people from
this OSTAG team that have justsort of come along, which is
meaning three rows of seating inyour auditorium.
SPEAKER_03 (01:45):
Yeah.
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_04 (01:47):
Yeah, it's great.
It's so good.
Uh, and just simple invites.
So they're playing on you knowduring the night, and then
especially one of the guysstarts with praying with the
team beforehand.
Not everyone's believers inthere, and he just invites them
along to 5 p.m.
and they've been coming along,which is yeah, it's been so
good.
SPEAKER_05 (02:03):
Uh Wollongong Baptist?
Yeah, similar to us.
Um, we've seen a rise in churchattendance, especially among uh
the young adults.
We've we've had people literallywalking in, just you know,
they've been like watchingvideos on YouTube with TikTok,
and now they're interested aboutJesus, looking for purpose,
meaning, life.
They're coming to just hearabout Jesus.
(02:23):
And we've also had um likepeople inviting their friends
because there's an opennessamong this generation to come to
church.
So we've we've seen that too atWollingong Baptist, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Dave, is it just Wollongong Baptist and MBM?
Uh praise God, no.
Yeah, in my role, I get totravel all across Sydney, New
South and Australia actually,uh, preaching.
And it's undoubtedly true thatthere is uh increase in
attendance of the two groupswe're talking about, which is uh
people just turning up to churchuninvited, and that's almost
(02:56):
unparalleled in our history, uh,and also people responding
positively to an invitation.
And here's the I think the bigheadline is that that
demographic most evidentlypresented is young adult men.
Uh and you know, if you've beenin ministry for more than six
minutes, you'll know, oh mygoodness.
SPEAKER_03 (03:14):
They're a hard group to reach.
SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
They're very, very difficult traditionally, the
most difficult group.
SPEAKER_03 (03:18):
And yet suddenly we're starting to think, are
they the easier group?
SPEAKER_01 (03:20):
And are they the easier one to hit?
And and I think that the big,big headline is there are more
and more young adults interestedin Christianity, and
particularly young adult men,and that has been evidenced by
coming or being brought along tochurch.
SPEAKER_03 (03:36):
Um, I'm seeing as uh as we see people more willing to
receive our invitation, that'scausing us to up the enthusiasm
for inviting as well.
Are you are you see that'speople are more on the front
foot in inviting?
SPEAKER_04 (03:52):
Yeah, yeah.
I I I think that when they trustwhat's going on, that they're
trusting the good news of Jesus,they're trusting the church that
they're going through, uh goingto, it's an easy invite to you
know, bring your friends alongand come to this, especially if
their friends are searching forsomething that's more, you know,
authentic, searching forsomething that they can, you
know, hold on to.
(04:13):
With I think I would think a lotof things in life at the moment,
people have put their trust inthings that have eventually sort
of saying promise something, butdoesn't deliver.
Uh, and I think that's whatpeople are coming to Jesus
saying, actually, there'ssomething real behind this and
hoping to coming along.
SPEAKER_03 (04:28):
Now, um, cultural groups, is it more one cultural
group than another?
What's your take there, Sam?
SPEAKER_05 (04:34):
Um, not really sure about that.
Um, uh Wollingong's quitespecial.
We've got the uni.
Um, we we've seen special.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
Wollen Gong thinks it's special.
I'd like to say it's special.
SPEAKER_05 (04:45):
Um we're very close to uni, I can say, and we've
seen more international studentscoming in.
I'm not sure uh about MBM orother churches in Sydney.
Um, but we've had people fromdifferent cultures, it's not
just dominantly um just onegroup of people.
Yeah, what's going on culturallythere, Dave?
SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Uh I think there's a couple of things, but on a very
surface, non-spiritual,everything's spiritual, but on a
surface level, I think whatwe're seeing is the consequence
of the social, political,cultural chaos uh that has
engulfed Gen Y, Millennials, andGen X.
It's all the boomers' fault, ofcourse, but in essence, that
(05:27):
postmodern, incoherent uh viewof life where there is no right
or wrong, there is no stability,no solidity.
Uh, and that in essence,particularly for young men,
they're told from very, veryyoung childhood, you're the
problem.
It's your problem.
It's all your fault.
It's all your fault.
You can't fix it.
There's no hope.
This is just you've donesomething wrong before you were
(05:48):
born.
This is what you have.
Now, we've got that.
And of course, I want to offerthat I've seen in my own
children.
I've got four young boys inprimary school.
I've seen that actually anotherpart of this is rebellion,
believe it or not.
Because most of their teacherswho are proffering this
viewpoint are millennials, theyhold the most woke positions.
And what do young people always,always do?
SPEAKER_03 (06:10):
They rebel against authority.
They rebel against authority.
SPEAKER_01 (06:13):
And they rebel against teachers, they rebel
against politicians, they rebelagainst so if you want to be
punk, if you want to be a rebel,if you want to, well, what we're
seeing is that that's arejection of the institutional,
uh, and forgive me, I don't likethe term wokery, but the
interinstitutional uh liberalismof life.
Uh, and actually, if you combinethat with the chaos, with the
(06:33):
hopelessness, well, it's asearch for solidity, for solid
ground, for a rock to stand on,for something to believe in, to
be something part of somethingbigger than themselves.
And that instinctively, ofcourse, I think drives people up
to God.
Uh, and in a culture such asours in Australia and the UK,
Canada, New Zealand, America,the other Protestant nations
(06:55):
where we've got the evidencefrom, uh, it's leading people to
church.
SPEAKER_03 (07:02):
Fascinating, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (07:04):
Unheralded.
And it's taken us by surprise.
But I do want to offer as wellthat um it's also producing the
thing you talked about, theenthusiasm of inviting people, I
think it's producing amongst ourChristians, leaders and lay
people, optimism, hope-timism.
You know, just this idea that,oh, hold on, because for years,
(07:24):
what's the narrative been?
Well, we're in Babylon, notJerusalem, we're the enemy,
we're gonna be in prison in adecade, we're this that the
other.
The census forms to go, oh mygoodness.
And yet we're sort of coming upagainst the fact that no, no, we
believe in a God who can anddoes keep saving people, uh, and
that it by you know, for everyno one could have predicted, and
(07:44):
yet two years ago, we wouldn'thave been sitting here talking
about this or ever thought ofit.
And yet it's undoubtedly, Ithink it's true.
There is an openness thatdoesn't mean a conversion or a
revival, I think, but there isan openness that we haven't
experienced before.
SPEAKER_03 (07:57):
What's going on in the politics?
Um, because um I mean, somepeople, I mean, this phenomena
was happening before theshooting of Charlie Kirk, but um
uh I mean there have I mean youwere telling me some people
turned up at your church becauseof Charlie Kirk.
SPEAKER_05 (08:14):
Yeah.
I mean they left their churchbecause their church didn't have
like an opinion or stance onwhat happened to Charlie Kirk.
So they were wondering if wewould talk about it and we would
like share our opinion on whatwe think of what happened in
America.
SPEAKER_03 (08:29):
Just hang on there then.
What I'm gonna do is um I had adiscussion like two months ago
with uh Sinclair Ferguson, yeah,and I threw the ball to him that
we as pastors should stay in ourlane on um uh preaching Christ
and not getting involved in thethe politics.
Let's just watch a clip of that,then I'm gonna make a comment,
(08:50):
then I'm gonna ask you toexpand.
Our congregation memberswouldn't know which way I I
vote.
Um, and I want people to come toour church who are highly
left-wing and highly right wing,and I stay in my lane of
preaching Christ and don't getin the lane of expressing
political views.
SPEAKER_00 (09:10):
Well, I am I'm very much with you, I think, Dominic.
Uh it's kind of church-stateseparation in its in its own
way.
That what I'm wanting to do inministry is really to give
people what I call the lensesthrough which they can see the
world fairly clearly that willenable them to assess situations
(09:32):
in a fallen world and if it's avote, then to vote accordingly.
I think American friends havefound themselves in recent years
in pretty considerabledifficulty because they found
themselves uh faced withcandidates, neither of whom
(09:53):
actually appeals to them as aperson.
But at least in my world, youknow, they have they have they
have at least understood thisprinciple that the person of the
individual is not the mostimportant thing that what will
happen as a result of theindividual may be very different
from the question, do you likehim or her or not?
SPEAKER_03 (10:15):
Now we coped or Sinclair Ferguson and me in the
backwash copped quite a bit offlack over that uh um those
comments online, particularlyfrom people in America.
And we've got it going on, uhyou had Mark Driscoll saying, uh
anyone who any preacher whodoesn't talk about Charlie Kirk
leave that church.
SPEAKER_01 (10:35):
Um what's I'll start with you, Dave.
I think how Sinclair put that isthe perfect way that I would
view preaching.
That uh preaching is well,Andrew Heard calls, I don't know
if he invented this, butworldview preaching.
Not that the world shapes yourpreaching, but that as you
(10:56):
preach the word, uh, that youallow in application as you're
preaching through what we'relearning, and particularly the
eschatological reality, theeternal focus of the word to
shape how we view the world andhow we view issues.
I think we're very fortunate inAustralia that both major
parties are dreadful.
(11:16):
When we're not driven withreligion, thinking, oh, well,
every Christian must vote uhliberal.
Or Labor.
Yeah, yeah.
Or Labor.
We're used to them.
SPEAKER_03 (11:25):
We're used to both of them being we've been
profoundly disappointed withboth sides.
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
We're not disappointed on both sides, and
so we don't have that samepressure, I think, as the
Americans feel.
Uh, but I would offer that thatmeans that we can freely speak
about Charlie Kirk or COVID orimmigration or the voice or
whatever it is, from thescriptural view and paradigm,
but I think we need to resist atall costs uh even sharing our
(11:51):
own opinion on it.
Uh, it's not a moral issue likeabortion or gay marriage.
On these issues where you canhold either viewpoint and not
sin, I think it's veryimportant.
SPEAKER_03 (12:00):
You're talking about the various political issues.
All the issues.
SPEAKER_01 (12:03):
I think it's very important that we don't share
how we vote, we don't share ouropinion.
unknown (12:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:08):
But we are willing to talk about the issues facing
the world and how a Christianwould view them, Charlie Kirk
being a good example, if yourdemographic of your church would
care.
You know, if where we're filmingright now, I dare say the view
count for Charlie Kirk videoswould be very, very low.
SPEAKER_03 (12:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:23):
We're right in the center of left wing and in
suburban Australia where it washigher, well, yeah, it's
absolutely, I think, suitable,appropriate to mention it, but
to actually do it from abiblical perspective.
SPEAKER_03 (12:34):
Now you were saying um at Wollongong Baptist, you
had some people turning upwanting Charlie Kirk allegiance.
SPEAKER_05 (12:41):
Yeah, that's right.
They wanted to know where do westand, like what's happening,
and just tell us about that.
Um, but I can be said to themthat we are a church where we
like we want people from theywere annoyed with the Anglicans
because they weren't talkingabout Yeah, that's right.
They left the church thinkingmaybe Wollingham Baptists will
talk about that.
SPEAKER_03 (12:57):
Um we'll go to Willong.
Yeah, we'll go there'll be moreand then what did you do?
SPEAKER_05 (13:02):
Well, we want to we want to be a church where people
from different opinions anddifferent political views come
and hear about Jesus.
Jesus is at the center of ourchurch.
We preach Jesus, we preach thecross.
This doesn't mean we areignorant of what's happening in
the world.
No, we pray about it, but wedon't tell people what to do or
who to vote for or where do westand.
(13:23):
I don't think that's helpful.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:27):
Have you tackled it in Western Sydney?
SPEAKER_04 (13:29):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I mean, similar to you.
So I was preaching that weekendwhen everything happened with
Charlie Kirk, and I got amessage from a guy saying, I'm
bringing my brother along tochurch.
He's very upset about theCharlie Kirk thing.
Uh, and I don't know what he waswanting me to do, but like I
wasn't gonna make Charlie Kirkthe center off my sermon.
But I do think, like, with whatSinclair said and with what you
just said then, Dave, as well, Ithink there's a difference
(13:50):
between like aligningpolitically and then also being
aware of what's going on.
And so I did mention CharlieKirk in my sermon of saying it
was a tragedy of what happened,but he wasn't the center of my
sermon.
Like, I think issues are alwaysgonna come, you know, there'll
be someone else 10, 20 yearsfrom now, it's gonna be another
issue that comes along.
That can never be the center ofwhat we're doing.
Jesus always has to be thecenter of what we're doing
(14:12):
because Charlie Kirk's not gonnasave anyone.
Jesus is the one who's gonnasave people.
And so we want to keep pointingpeople to him while at the same
time being culturally aware,culturally aware of what's going
on.
So in our growth group, I um wewere going and then I realized,
okay, I'm not gonna go on withthis study.
I'm gonna help our young adultsthink through.
Just seeing all the stuff goingon on social media about Charlie
(14:33):
Kirk as Christians, how are wesupposed to respond to this?
And just having a conversationand engaging with them, because
I think that's helpful for themto see, okay, I'm not totally
unaware of what's going on, butat the same time, we've got a
mission from Jesus.
Let's get on with that.
SPEAKER_03 (14:49):
We've talked before, David, about uh Dave, about
people coming to church lookingfor something other than Jesus,
like looking for, if you like,the right-wing political
position or looking for theanti-vax.
And what happens when they'recoming for that and you give
them Jesus?
SPEAKER_01 (15:06):
Generally speaking, it's the same phenomenon as you
get when someone comes to churchat Christmas or Easter to tick a
box.
So they're coming for somethingwe're not offering.
And what they're looking for atChristmas or Easter is a
tick-in-the-box assurance thatthat's okay, you'll be fine.
They're not generally listening,so they don't get offended.
(15:26):
Uh, however, the COVID thing wasfascinating.
The political response uhphenomena is fascinating because
in many respects they're comingbecause they're offended,
they're shocked, they're andsome of them I would offer are
genuinely so shocked they'relooking for something deeper.
But the vast majority are comingbecause they're viewing the
church because of Americanpolitics alignment with
(15:48):
Christianity as a bastion ofconservatism, and so they leave
very, very disappointed.
Maybe not very, verydisappointed, but they leave not
um satisfied because when wemeet people like that, we want
to love them and convert themand confront them with the
gospel and bring them to hearthe good news of Jesus.
And that's not often whatthey're looking for.
(16:08):
COVID was fascinating.
We saw a bunch of people comebecause of the Christian-ish uh
uh tenor, I suppose, of theprotest movement.
Uh, and they would come, therewas an openness, but it because
it was driven not by a searchfor God, but driven by a
political angliness orunsettledness or things.
Yeah, it wouldn't generallylast.
Of course, God does what hewants and he saves people
(16:30):
through that, but generallyspeaking, it doesn't land.
SPEAKER_03 (16:32):
Now we've not spoken properly since the Sydney Synod
when the um uh goal of trying tosee five percent conversion
based on average adultattendance or based on average
attendance.
Um I'm imagining I mean, I wasexcited about that.
I'm imagining you're excitedabout that.
I'm just thinking about youguys, the way you're talking
(16:53):
about your eveningcongregations, you're probably
over five percent conversion atthe moment.
But what are you doing and whatare you hearing spoken of about
how to get this happening acrossthe board?
Let's start with you.
Well, you're not an Anglican,but I guess you're going for 5%
anyway.
How do we well?
SPEAKER_05 (17:09):
There are different ways.
Um, the most important thing isthe word of God.
Yeah, we we invite people sothey can hear the word, so they
can hear Jesus.
When we preach Jesus to them,when we preach the cross, that's
when the conversion happens.
There are different ways.
Um, the most effective way, inmy opinion, is our evangelistic
courses.
Like at our church, we have anevangelistic course where um
(17:30):
like during the week we umprovide um a very like easy, uh
comfortable, uh chillenvironment for people to come
and ask questions and hear thegospel.
Um, and just that's that's themost important thing.
Bring people it's the same withthe praise.
SPEAKER_03 (17:47):
Is it the evangelistic course that you're
doing?
Is that your main conversionengine technique?
SPEAKER_04 (17:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's our main.
So, yeah, similar to what justSam just said.
Um, but I think like maybe totalk about like why that's
effective, because we have thesame philosophy at our youth
group.
We had a we have a bring afriend night week five.
It's predictable, people trustit, uh, and they know that when
they're gonna bring theirfriends along, I'll use youth
term here, uh, it's not cringe,right?
So they're gonna hear that Jesuspreached, but do it in a way
(18:14):
that relates with the peoplethat are coming along.
And so I think that when peoplehave trust in that and we trust
the gospel, it's not gonna fail.
Like God's will will, God's wordwill produce fruit.
Uh, we keep doing that andknowing that he will do it.
But I think the important thingis like we have to be
intentional about it and we haveto just keep pushing because I
think maybe one of the quickestthings to drop out, you might
(18:35):
guys might disagree or agree,but mission can be the quickest
thing to drop off our radar.
So if we're not always on aboutit, it's gonna be the first
thing that goes.
And so I think as no, I love it,these guys love it, we just have
to keep making sure we'reintentional about it.
So whether it is a uhevangelistic course or whatever
people decide to do, make suremission's on the agenda.
SPEAKER_03 (18:55):
Yes.
Now, I think we are probablygetting the 5% target amongst
our Sunday night cohort.
Do you know?
And if I was to look at ourSunday night average service
attendance, I'm I'm I'mabsolutely sure we're at over
five percent.
And the way you're talking, ifyou've got three rows from
OzTag, you'll be over fivepercent in the Sunday nights.
(19:16):
Yeah, yeah.
The the question for me is arewe getting it in the morning?
And I'm not sure we are.
Yeah, Dave, what's your sense ofhow are you encouraging people
on that?
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
Well, in essence, uh what we need to do, I think,
when it comes to evangelism, iswork out uh what converts
people, uh, which is the gospel.
How does it happen?
Over 2,000 years, we've seen theword, people, time, and prayer
are generally always combined insome way.
Uh, and that predominantly worksfor old adults, young adults,
(19:46):
youth, uh in different formats.
Uh, I'm certainly seeing, Ithink, churches that have for
the last 20 years seen a goodratio, that 5% figure uh of
conversions happening all thetime.
Um, they have seen an increasein conversion with their young
adult, not the same radicalincrease in mourning in the
(20:07):
older crew, but a still steadystream of people converted.
So, what converts people whenit's hostile and what converts
people when there may beopenness is actually the same
thing.
Uh, and so uh yeah, I I I thinkthe main thing I'm noticing is
not that the mourning uh oldergeneration is getting harder,
but rather they're staying hard.
(20:28):
So it's always difficult.
And the younger people, it'sstill difficult, uh, always
hard, but yeah, there hasn'tbeen the same openness, the same
willingness.
I also wonder if a part of thatis um we are riding the wave of
with a younger generation of theincrease of Christian schooling.
And so Christian schooling canbe overdone in its
(20:50):
effectiveness.
We can't overthink all this isparticularly profoundly
effective.
But one of the most helpfulthings is that it can shape
people's plausibility of thegospel.
And I've noticed with youngadults, in particular in the
last two years, that huge swathof the new converts are people
who have had more than one ortwo meetings with Christian
people over their previous 20years or whatever.
(21:13):
And that may be a Christianteacher, it may be a friend
they've met who goes to youth,and a lot of them have gone to a
Christian type school where theyweren't converted, they're not
from Christian families, but itwas enough that as they go out
into the world and they drinkthe world's water and they
realize this is toil.
This is not taking it.
This is poison.
Yeah.
That actually, so long as wehave stuff, we're ready, we're
(21:33):
prepared to have events and umuh conversion moments where
young adults can be broughtinto, well, and adults, but just
that we have stuff appropriatelypitched and targeted uh for
those demographics, we'll getthem.
SPEAKER_03 (21:47):
Now, what about um as we've talked about this kind
of revival amongst the young,and um some people have been
saying we've got to go moreliturgy.
And um, I mean, I had aconversation with Glenn
Scrivener um a couple of monthsago here.
He said you should go that way.
I'll I'll just play that just acouple of seconds and then we'll
pick that up.
Sure.
SPEAKER_02 (22:07):
And what they want is something deep and rich and
old and tethered andchallenging, and the strangeness
of Christianity is actually anattractive thing.
The ancientness of Christianityis actually an attractive thing.
And I I think we we need to beclever about how we respond to
this surprising rebirth.
(22:27):
Because I think the sort ofthings that I learnt at Bible
college 20 years ago was kind ofto get rid of anything
challenging, to get rid ofanything that was a barrier to
faith, to get rid of anythingthat that made Christianity look
ancient.
And we were constantly trying tolet's do cafe-style church,
right?
Let's let's have you know chairsin a circle rather than in rows,
(22:48):
and let's let's get rid ofsacraments, and we we won't do a
weekly communion because thatmight not be good for mission.
The people who show up in churchnow, they're like, Where's your
communion?
Why have you got kneelers andnobody's kneeling?
And like, why, why, why are wenot reading the Bible more?
SPEAKER_03 (23:04):
Now that's Glenn Scrivener, but it's not just
him.
Lots of people I'm I'm um amongmy friends seem to be saying,
uh, we've got to get back toback to liturgy, back to prayer
book.
And I'm thinking, I just can'tsee that as effectively
connecting with the young adult.
But what do you think, David?
SPEAKER_01 (23:24):
Oh, I think I have a very strong opinion, Dominic.
I I think that's nonsense,actually.
Uh I think what we're doing, uhthe what Glenn did, and I
respect Glenn, but that was afalse dichotomy he's presenting
there, where he's saying, ah, uhpeople are coming, and in the
past we did cafe church and wegot rid of everything just to
(23:45):
make it palatable, and thatdidn't really work.
Now they're looking for thingsthat are ancient.
I agree with that, and I don'tthink we should change.
Well, I think cafe church hasalways been a dud, by the way,
but I don't think we shouldchange and uh try and pander to
our culture and be cool, we'renot cool, all those type of
things.
But the thing they're lookingfor, truly, that's ancient is
(24:06):
not that we're wearing dressesor lighting candles or reciting
words, it is the living,breathing word of God that
transforms souls.
So the the battles that werefought here in Sydney to get rid
of the trope of uh liturgicalform, which by the way, is
prevalent and present in everyheretical denomination you can
come up with.
(24:26):
And not only that, if you lookat the denominations and
churches which see the leastconversions and are responsible
for the most people walkingaway, they are liturgy heavy to
the max.
Okay.
So what what are we actuallysaying?
That's not liturgy.
It's not liturgy people need norwant.
It's the word.
The mistake is to view oh, whatthey what the mis what he is
(24:48):
fighting against, I think, isthe seeker service movement,
which cuts out even the wordbecause we don't want to
confront people with that.
And what we have fought for,I'll use Sydney Anglicanism, if
I may, uh, so hard, was to totry and strip away unhelpful
barriers to the living,breathing word of God where
people encounter the living,breathing, ruling, reigning king
(25:09):
of kings.
Uh, and and that's only becausethe liturgical framework is so
unhelpful in uh building falseassurance of salvation.
So the I've certainly I'll justput it as as plainly as I can,
not that I've been subtle sofar, but I'll put it as plainly
as I can.
If we're just to talk pragmaticsabout conversions, the churches
(25:31):
in England, the United Kingdom,America, Australia, Canada, New
Zealand that see the mostconversions have almost no
liturgical framework whatsoever.
It's fake news, and often, I'mnot saying like this of Glenn,
but unfortunately it's oftendriven by a confirmation bias
that I like it.
So I'm gonna make sure everyoneelse has to go through it
because I like it.
(25:51):
And so I'm gonna put on a collarand I'm gonna light a candle.
Uh, but it's not shown byevidence whatsoever that it
leads to people to Christ or toconversion.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (26:00):
And I I became a Christian a few years ago.
Um, and I was a young adult, andone of the things that caught my
attention from Iranianbackground.
Yes, yes, yes, from a Muslimbackground, and one of the
things that caught my attentionwas the building that this is
normal building, and people arenormal people, and they're not
weird.
So that was that was the thingthat caught my attention, not
(26:20):
liturgy and the service, theorder of service and stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (26:23):
Now, um, both of you, Sam, and you pre spoke
about the main conversion enginein your churches being uh the
course.
And and that's been myexperience, and I've been
thumping on about running anevangelistic course four times a
year for 20 years, and but um uhDave, you're doing one night
(26:44):
evangelism and why when we'reseeing the course work.
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
Yeah, so uh pre-Sam.
SPEAKER_03 (26:51):
I mean you just you argued for it a minute ago.
Time, word, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:55):
Prayer people are spot on.
So uh pre-Sam and I uh are partof uh the alive movement where
we are launching a series ofyeah, one night evangelistic
rallies uh in Sydney andWollongong, five of them, uh
across the city.
And they're and they're gonna betargeted at young adults.
Now, why?
SPEAKER_03 (27:14):
Yeah, because it goes against the whole logic
that we've been arguing the last30 minutes.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Well, I don't know if it does.
I think it's all aboutunderstanding churches and
understanding where this fitsin.
So I think in the last 20, 30years, we've seen evangelistic
one-off events done very badlyin Sydney, and that's
predominantly because theyreally are not paying much
attention to churches andchurches' pathways and
(27:40):
frameworks.
So therefore, they'll come intotown, they'll put something on,
uh, and then you've got achoice.
Should I bring my friend tointroducing God or discover, or
should I bring my friend to thisevangelistic event?
SPEAKER_03 (27:50):
Um, I mean, we gave a pretty damning critique of the
Franklin Graham one a couple ofyears ago.
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
And and of course, I hold the position, as I know
these brothers do and you do, uhDon, that the most important
place to bring a non-Christianis to a course, to a church
where they're hearing the wordovertime with people.
However, what I identified inthe last few years, but also
through working as a missionpastor at churches, was that
people need multiple evangelismmoments.
(28:17):
So is it possible to do eventsthat don't clash but complement
the existing pathway?
And so the Alive movement, we'reputting our events on at the end
of term, not at the start ofterm.
So, for example, a young adult,let's say some of the OzTag
guys, they come along to thelife series or Explaining
Christianity, they do their fiveweeks there, they're in a couple
of weeks of follow-up, they'vehad a call to response, but then
(28:38):
on Saturday night, a whole crewof people are going out to
Penrith to this event, whichagain we we hope will not be
cringe, we'll be good, where thegospel will be really clearly
proclaimed.
And what I've seen over the lasttwo years is the places where
young adults are most oftenprofessing faith that I've been
able to witness is actually inpreaching.
It doesn't just work in youth,it still works with young adults
(29:01):
so long as this isn't the firstever encounter with the gospel.
It's often the the third or thefourth.
It's an emotional moment.
So we're giving it a crackbecause we think if this is a
moment where God is doingsomething, what would it look
like for us to raise the sailsand and and and take advantage
of it the most that we could andto actually do stuff that we're
(29:23):
better together that complementschurches that doesn't clash with
them.
Uh and so that's that's theheart of the uh the movement.
But that would be yeah, alsousing the wisdom of pre and and
Sam and a bunch of the otherswho've seen the same thing
happen in youth for for yearsand years as well.
SPEAKER_03 (29:39):
I mean, that's really helpful because when you
when I first heard about it, Iremember how does this work when
it just felt like it wentagainst the the grain of where
we'd been going.
SPEAKER_05 (29:51):
Yeah, yeah, and it's not just a one night thing, like
we have a clear follow-upprocess, we partner with
churches, so it's not likepeople become Christians and we
let them go.
No, we use these churches, wepartner with churches, we
connect people to churches sothey can go and maybe even like
keep going to the course.
SPEAKER_01 (30:08):
So it's not like just all right, you became a
Christian and like Yeah, and Ithink part of the part of the
the reason behind it all is adeep, deep commitment to the
word of God doing the work, butalso the importance of church.
That the church is the startingplace and the finish line of
evangelism.
It's where we want people tocome in and go.
Uh, and so these are not reallydesigned to be the very first
(30:31):
experience for people.
They're not going to be pitchedtowards cynics, atheists, and
people of other religions,they're pitched towards people
who are close.
SPEAKER_03 (30:39):
It's I mean, that's really helpful to hear because
um uh I mean one of my bigdilemmas in when I was doing
itinerant evangelism is am Idoing the first date talk or am
I doing the will you marry metalk?
And uh and if I know which whichtalk I'm doing, then I've I know
which lane to drive in.
(31:01):
And it's very helpful for me tohear that you're talking more at
the end of the will you marry metalk than the first date talk.
SPEAKER_01 (31:08):
Oh, it's let's book the venue talk.
Yeah, you know, no, it is it ispointing to uh uh so the talks
will if, for example, they won'tbe they won't be fixated on can
we trust the Bible.
Yeah, they'll point people to wecan trust the Bible.
There will be resources forpeople after it's about
trustworthiness of the Bible.
But the talk will be about whatis a Christian, what is
(31:28):
Christianity?
Because I think the Biblecertainly points to my
experience has been that mostpeople have never heard the
gospel clearly explained enoughto reject it.
Uh, but these people, some ofthem they have, and to be
honest, a lot of it is pitchedat myself at 21.
I know for you, Pri, you at 20as well, or just to go, hey, as
soon as I left youth group, Ididn't have a university
(31:51):
Christian group experience, uh,and church was full of young
families.
I was kind of like in a in anether world, and I want to say,
no, no, we've got a group ofpeople here who are the most
open statistically since what,World War II to the gospel.
Well, let's do something thatdoesn't hurt but helps churches.
Uh, and as part of that as well,we've got um our social media,
(32:16):
the Alive movement on socialmedia, madealive.net website.
So we're building a websitewhich is designed explicitly for
non-Christians, which will haveevangelistic course content and
all the things that we actuallyjust want to make sure people
are pointed to and from churchesuh because I'm a church guy.
SPEAKER_04 (32:30):
I think the thing that I love about it as well is
that I think we need to stopviewing each other as
competitors as churches, andthis is like an event that
brings us all together.
Like we're on about the the samegospel, we're on about people
saying like coming to knowJesus.
It's not about like my church oryour church or your church.
It's like we're on we're on thismission together, and I think
that's what a live bringstogether for me, which is I'm I
love it.
(32:51):
Alrighty, I'm persuaded.
SPEAKER_01 (32:53):
Yes, your original cynicism wasn't like that.
But I'm encouraged.
SPEAKER_03 (32:58):
I'm persuaded.
My guests on the pastor's heart.
Dave Jensen, he leads theevangelism part of Sydney
Anglicans, Evangelism, and newchurches.
Sam Madavi, he's uh leadingevangelism at Wollongong Baptist
Church and pre-Shun Megan HeadsUp Mission and his youth pastor
at MBM Rudy Hill in WesternSydney.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on ThePastor's Heart.
(33:20):
We will look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
Can we ride the cultural wave?
Is there a revival among youngadults in Australia?
Dave Jensen, pre-Shunmigan, andSam Madavi are my guests.
It is The Pastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele, and it isclear that there is something
going on.
In England, the statistics arein.
There's something they'recalling it a quiet revival.
Over in France, we're hearingthat an evangelical church is
(00:30):
opening every 10 days.
But what about here inAustralia?
Our guests, well, Dave Jensenleads the evangelism part of the
Sydney Anglicans, Evangelism andNew Churches.
Sam Madavi, he heads upevangelism at Wollongong Baptist
Church, and Pree Shunmigan isthe mission lead and youth
pastor at MBM Rudy Hill inSydney.
(00:52):
Let's start with the pastor'sheart and with you, Pri.
And uh, you are in the heartlandof multiculturalism in Sydney's
West at Rudy Hill.
Um, what's going on on theground among the 70
nationalities or so that arepart of your network?
SPEAKER_04 (01:09):
Yeah, like you said, like we've definitely noticed uh
and heightening interest inpeople coming into church.
So, you know, across allservices from morning until 5
p.m., people walking in, comingto check out what's going on at
MBM.
Uh, but particularly in our 5p.m.
service, uh, we've noticed asthere's a lot more young adults
coming in and a lot more of ourpeople just bringing their
(01:32):
friends along.
Uh, we have like an OSTAG teamthat's just sort of started up,
or they've been going for a yearor so, but about three rows off
our um of the seating that isjust filled with people from
this OSTAG team that have justsort of come along, which is
meaning three rows of seating inyour auditorium.
SPEAKER_03 (01:45):
Yeah.
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_04 (01:47):
Yeah, it's great.
It's so good.
Uh, and just simple invites.
So they're playing on you knowduring the night, and then
especially one of the guysstarts with praying with the
team beforehand.
Not everyone's believers inthere, and he just invites them
along to 5 p.m.
and they've been coming along,which is yeah, it's been so
good.
SPEAKER_05 (02:03):
Uh Wollongong Baptist?
Yeah, similar to us.
Um, we've seen a rise in churchattendance, especially among uh
the young adults.
We've we've had people literallywalking in, just you know,
they've been like watchingvideos on YouTube with TikTok,
and now they're interested aboutJesus, looking for purpose,
meaning, life.
They're coming to just hearabout Jesus.
(02:23):
And we've also had um likepeople inviting their friends
because there's an opennessamong this generation to come to
church.
So we've we've seen that too atWollingong Baptist, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Dave, is it just Wollongong Baptist and MBM?
Uh praise God, no.
Yeah, in my role, I get totravel all across Sydney, New
South and Australia actually,uh, preaching.
And it's undoubtedly true thatthere is uh increase in
attendance of the two groupswe're talking about, which is uh
people just turning up to churchuninvited, and that's almost
(02:56):
unparalleled in our history, uh,and also people responding
positively to an invitation.
And here's the I think the bigheadline is that that
demographic most evidentlypresented is young adult men.
Uh and you know, if you've beenin ministry for more than six
minutes, you'll know, oh mygoodness.
SPEAKER_03 (03:14):
They're a hard group to reach.
SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
They're very, very difficult traditionally, the
most difficult group.
SPEAKER_03 (03:18):
And yet suddenly we're starting to think, are
they the easier group?
SPEAKER_01 (03:20):
And are they the easier one to hit?
And and I think that the big,big headline is there are more
and more young adults interestedin Christianity, and
particularly young adult men,and that has been evidenced by
coming or being brought along tochurch.
SPEAKER_03 (03:36):
Um, I'm seeing as uh as we see people more willing to
receive our invitation, that'scausing us to up the enthusiasm
for inviting as well.
Are you are you see that'speople are more on the front
foot in inviting?
SPEAKER_04 (03:52):
Yeah, yeah.
I I I think that when they trustwhat's going on, that they're
trusting the good news of Jesus,they're trusting the church that
they're going through, uh goingto, it's an easy invite to you
know, bring your friends alongand come to this, especially if
their friends are searching forsomething that's more, you know,
authentic, searching forsomething that they can, you
know, hold on to.
(04:13):
With I think I would think a lotof things in life at the moment,
people have put their trust inthings that have eventually sort
of saying promise something, butdoesn't deliver.
Uh, and I think that's whatpeople are coming to Jesus
saying, actually, there'ssomething real behind this and
hoping to coming along.
SPEAKER_03 (04:28):
Now, um, cultural groups, is it more one cultural
group than another?
What's your take there, Sam?
SPEAKER_05 (04:34):
Um, not really sure about that.
Um, uh Wollingong's quitespecial.
We've got the uni.
Um, we we've seen special.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
Wollen Gong thinks it's special.
I'd like to say it's special.
SPEAKER_05 (04:45):
Um we're very close to uni, I can say, and we've
seen more international studentscoming in.
I'm not sure uh about MBM orother churches in Sydney.
Um, but we've had people fromdifferent cultures, it's not
just dominantly um just onegroup of people.
Yeah, what's going on culturallythere, Dave?
SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Uh I think there's a couple of things, but on a very
surface, non-spiritual,everything's spiritual, but on a
surface level, I think whatwe're seeing is the consequence
of the social, political,cultural chaos uh that has
engulfed Gen Y, Millennials, andGen X.
It's all the boomers' fault, ofcourse, but in essence, that
(05:27):
postmodern, incoherent uh viewof life where there is no right
or wrong, there is no stability,no solidity.
Uh, and that in essence,particularly for young men,
they're told from very, veryyoung childhood, you're the
problem.
It's your problem.
It's all your fault.
It's all your fault.
You can't fix it.
There's no hope.
This is just you've donesomething wrong before you were
(05:48):
born.
This is what you have.
Now, we've got that.
And of course, I want to offerthat I've seen in my own
children.
I've got four young boys inprimary school.
I've seen that actually anotherpart of this is rebellion,
believe it or not.
Because most of their teacherswho are proffering this
viewpoint are millennials, theyhold the most woke positions.
And what do young people always,always do?
SPEAKER_03 (06:10):
They rebel against authority.
They rebel against authority.
SPEAKER_01 (06:13):
And they rebel against teachers, they rebel
against politicians, they rebelagainst so if you want to be
punk, if you want to be a rebel,if you want to, well, what we're
seeing is that that's arejection of the institutional,
uh, and forgive me, I don't likethe term wokery, but the
interinstitutional uh liberalismof life.
Uh, and actually, if you combinethat with the chaos, with the
(06:33):
hopelessness, well, it's asearch for solidity, for solid
ground, for a rock to stand on,for something to believe in, to
be something part of somethingbigger than themselves.
And that instinctively, ofcourse, I think drives people up
to God.
Uh, and in a culture such asours in Australia and the UK,
Canada, New Zealand, America,the other Protestant nations
(06:55):
where we've got the evidencefrom, uh, it's leading people to
church.
SPEAKER_03 (07:02):
Fascinating, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (07:04):
Unheralded.
And it's taken us by surprise.
But I do want to offer as wellthat um it's also producing the
thing you talked about, theenthusiasm of inviting people, I
think it's producing amongst ourChristians, leaders and lay
people, optimism, hope-timism.
You know, just this idea that,oh, hold on, because for years,
(07:24):
what's the narrative been?
Well, we're in Babylon, notJerusalem, we're the enemy,
we're gonna be in prison in adecade, we're this that the
other.
The census forms to go, oh mygoodness.
And yet we're sort of coming upagainst the fact that no, no, we
believe in a God who can anddoes keep saving people, uh, and
that it by you know, for everyno one could have predicted, and
(07:44):
yet two years ago, we wouldn'thave been sitting here talking
about this or ever thought ofit.
And yet it's undoubtedly, Ithink it's true.
There is an openness thatdoesn't mean a conversion or a
revival, I think, but there isan openness that we haven't
experienced before.
SPEAKER_03 (07:57):
What's going on in the politics?
Um, because um I mean, somepeople, I mean, this phenomena
was happening before theshooting of Charlie Kirk, but um
uh I mean there have I mean youwere telling me some people
turned up at your church becauseof Charlie Kirk.
SPEAKER_05 (08:14):
Yeah.
I mean they left their churchbecause their church didn't have
like an opinion or stance onwhat happened to Charlie Kirk.
So they were wondering if wewould talk about it and we would
like share our opinion on whatwe think of what happened in
America.
SPEAKER_03 (08:29):
Just hang on there then.
What I'm gonna do is um I had adiscussion like two months ago
with uh Sinclair Ferguson, yeah,and I threw the ball to him that
we as pastors should stay in ourlane on um uh preaching Christ
and not getting involved in thethe politics.
Let's just watch a clip of that,then I'm gonna make a comment,
(08:50):
then I'm gonna ask you toexpand.
Our congregation memberswouldn't know which way I I
vote.
Um, and I want people to come toour church who are highly
left-wing and highly right wing,and I stay in my lane of
preaching Christ and don't getin the lane of expressing
political views.
SPEAKER_00 (09:10):
Well, I am I'm very much with you, I think, Dominic.
Uh it's kind of church-stateseparation in its in its own
way.
That what I'm wanting to do inministry is really to give
people what I call the lensesthrough which they can see the
world fairly clearly that willenable them to assess situations
(09:32):
in a fallen world and if it's avote, then to vote accordingly.
I think American friends havefound themselves in recent years
in pretty considerabledifficulty because they found
themselves uh faced withcandidates, neither of whom
(09:53):
actually appeals to them as aperson.
But at least in my world, youknow, they have they have they
have at least understood thisprinciple that the person of the
individual is not the mostimportant thing that what will
happen as a result of theindividual may be very different
from the question, do you likehim or her or not?
SPEAKER_03 (10:15):
Now we coped or Sinclair Ferguson and me in the
backwash copped quite a bit offlack over that uh um those
comments online, particularlyfrom people in America.
And we've got it going on, uhyou had Mark Driscoll saying, uh
anyone who any preacher whodoesn't talk about Charlie Kirk
leave that church.
SPEAKER_01 (10:35):
Um what's I'll start with you, Dave.
I think how Sinclair put that isthe perfect way that I would
view preaching.
That uh preaching is well,Andrew Heard calls, I don't know
if he invented this, butworldview preaching.
Not that the world shapes yourpreaching, but that as you
(10:56):
preach the word, uh, that youallow in application as you're
preaching through what we'relearning, and particularly the
eschatological reality, theeternal focus of the word to
shape how we view the world andhow we view issues.
I think we're very fortunate inAustralia that both major
parties are dreadful.
(11:16):
When we're not driven withreligion, thinking, oh, well,
every Christian must vote uhliberal.
Or Labor.
Yeah, yeah.
Or Labor.
We're used to them.
SPEAKER_03 (11:25):
We're used to both of them being we've been
profoundly disappointed withboth sides.
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
We're not disappointed on both sides, and
so we don't have that samepressure, I think, as the
Americans feel.
Uh, but I would offer that thatmeans that we can freely speak
about Charlie Kirk or COVID orimmigration or the voice or
whatever it is, from thescriptural view and paradigm,
but I think we need to resist atall costs uh even sharing our
(11:51):
own opinion on it.
Uh, it's not a moral issue likeabortion or gay marriage.
On these issues where you canhold either viewpoint and not
sin, I think it's veryimportant.
SPEAKER_03 (12:00):
You're talking about the various political issues.
All the issues.
SPEAKER_01 (12:03):
I think it's very important that we don't share
how we vote, we don't share ouropinion.
unknown (12:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:08):
But we are willing to talk about the issues facing
the world and how a Christianwould view them, Charlie Kirk
being a good example, if yourdemographic of your church would
care.
You know, if where we're filmingright now, I dare say the view
count for Charlie Kirk videoswould be very, very low.
SPEAKER_03 (12:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:23):
We're right in the center of left wing and in
suburban Australia where it washigher, well, yeah, it's
absolutely, I think, suitable,appropriate to mention it, but
to actually do it from abiblical perspective.
SPEAKER_03 (12:34):
Now you were saying um at Wollongong Baptist, you
had some people turning upwanting Charlie Kirk allegiance.
SPEAKER_05 (12:41):
Yeah, that's right.
They wanted to know where do westand, like what's happening,
and just tell us about that.
Um, but I can be said to themthat we are a church where we
like we want people from theywere annoyed with the Anglicans
because they weren't talkingabout Yeah, that's right.
They left the church thinkingmaybe Wollingham Baptists will
talk about that.
SPEAKER_03 (12:57):
Um we'll go to Willong.
Yeah, we'll go there'll be moreand then what did you do?
SPEAKER_05 (13:02):
Well, we want to we want to be a church where people
from different opinions anddifferent political views come
and hear about Jesus.
Jesus is at the center of ourchurch.
We preach Jesus, we preach thecross.
This doesn't mean we areignorant of what's happening in
the world.
No, we pray about it, but wedon't tell people what to do or
who to vote for or where do westand.
(13:23):
I don't think that's helpful.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:27):
Have you tackled it in Western Sydney?
SPEAKER_04 (13:29):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I mean, similar to you.
So I was preaching that weekendwhen everything happened with
Charlie Kirk, and I got amessage from a guy saying, I'm
bringing my brother along tochurch.
He's very upset about theCharlie Kirk thing.
Uh, and I don't know what he waswanting me to do, but like I
wasn't gonna make Charlie Kirkthe center off my sermon.
But I do think, like, with whatSinclair said and with what you
just said then, Dave, as well, Ithink there's a difference
(13:50):
between like aligningpolitically and then also being
aware of what's going on.
And so I did mention CharlieKirk in my sermon of saying it
was a tragedy of what happened,but he wasn't the center of my
sermon.
Like, I think issues are alwaysgonna come, you know, there'll
be someone else 10, 20 yearsfrom now, it's gonna be another
issue that comes along.
That can never be the center ofwhat we're doing.
Jesus always has to be thecenter of what we're doing
(14:12):
because Charlie Kirk's not gonnasave anyone.
Jesus is the one who's gonnasave people.
And so we want to keep pointingpeople to him while at the same
time being culturally aware,culturally aware of what's going
on.
So in our growth group, I um wewere going and then I realized,
okay, I'm not gonna go on withthis study.
I'm gonna help our young adultsthink through.
Just seeing all the stuff goingon on social media about Charlie
(14:33):
Kirk as Christians, how are wesupposed to respond to this?
And just having a conversationand engaging with them, because
I think that's helpful for themto see, okay, I'm not totally
unaware of what's going on, butat the same time, we've got a
mission from Jesus.
Let's get on with that.
SPEAKER_03 (14:49):
We've talked before, David, about uh Dave, about
people coming to church lookingfor something other than Jesus,
like looking for, if you like,the right-wing political
position or looking for theanti-vax.
And what happens when they'recoming for that and you give
them Jesus?
SPEAKER_01 (15:06):
Generally speaking, it's the same phenomenon as you
get when someone comes to churchat Christmas or Easter to tick a
box.
So they're coming for somethingwe're not offering.
And what they're looking for atChristmas or Easter is a
tick-in-the-box assurance thatthat's okay, you'll be fine.
They're not generally listening,so they don't get offended.
(15:26):
Uh, however, the COVID thing wasfascinating.
The political response uhphenomena is fascinating because
in many respects they're comingbecause they're offended,
they're shocked, they're andsome of them I would offer are
genuinely so shocked they'relooking for something deeper.
But the vast majority are comingbecause they're viewing the
church because of Americanpolitics alignment with
(15:48):
Christianity as a bastion ofconservatism, and so they leave
very, very disappointed.
Maybe not very, verydisappointed, but they leave not
um satisfied because when wemeet people like that, we want
to love them and convert themand confront them with the
gospel and bring them to hearthe good news of Jesus.
And that's not often whatthey're looking for.
(16:08):
COVID was fascinating.
We saw a bunch of people comebecause of the Christian-ish uh
uh tenor, I suppose, of theprotest movement.
Uh, and they would come, therewas an openness, but it because
it was driven not by a searchfor God, but driven by a
political angliness orunsettledness or things.
Yeah, it wouldn't generallylast.
Of course, God does what hewants and he saves people
(16:30):
through that, but generallyspeaking, it doesn't land.
SPEAKER_03 (16:32):
Now we've not spoken properly since the Sydney Synod
when the um uh goal of trying tosee five percent conversion
based on average adultattendance or based on average
attendance.
Um I'm imagining I mean, I wasexcited about that.
I'm imagining you're excitedabout that.
I'm just thinking about youguys, the way you're talking
(16:53):
about your eveningcongregations, you're probably
over five percent conversion atthe moment.
But what are you doing and whatare you hearing spoken of about
how to get this happening acrossthe board?
Let's start with you.
Well, you're not an Anglican,but I guess you're going for 5%
anyway.
How do we well?
SPEAKER_05 (17:09):
There are different ways.
Um, the most important thing isthe word of God.
Yeah, we we invite people sothey can hear the word, so they
can hear Jesus.
When we preach Jesus to them,when we preach the cross, that's
when the conversion happens.
There are different ways.
Um, the most effective way, inmy opinion, is our evangelistic
courses.
Like at our church, we have anevangelistic course where um
(17:30):
like during the week we umprovide um a very like easy, uh
comfortable, uh chillenvironment for people to come
and ask questions and hear thegospel.
Um, and just that's that's themost important thing.
Bring people it's the same withthe praise.
SPEAKER_03 (17:47):
Is it the evangelistic course that you're
doing?
Is that your main conversionengine technique?
SPEAKER_04 (17:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's our main.
So, yeah, similar to what justSam just said.
Um, but I think like maybe totalk about like why that's
effective, because we have thesame philosophy at our youth
group.
We had a we have a bring afriend night week five.
It's predictable, people trustit, uh, and they know that when
they're gonna bring theirfriends along, I'll use youth
term here, uh, it's not cringe,right?
So they're gonna hear that Jesuspreached, but do it in a way
(18:14):
that relates with the peoplethat are coming along.
And so I think that when peoplehave trust in that and we trust
the gospel, it's not gonna fail.
Like God's will will, God's wordwill produce fruit.
Uh, we keep doing that andknowing that he will do it.
But I think the important thingis like we have to be
intentional about it and we haveto just keep pushing because I
think maybe one of the quickestthings to drop out, you might
(18:35):
guys might disagree or agree,but mission can be the quickest
thing to drop off our radar.
So if we're not always on aboutit, it's gonna be the first
thing that goes.
And so I think as no, I love it,these guys love it, we just have
to keep making sure we'reintentional about it.
So whether it is a uhevangelistic course or whatever
people decide to do, make suremission's on the agenda.
SPEAKER_03 (18:55):
Yes.
Now, I think we are probablygetting the 5% target amongst
our Sunday night cohort.
Do you know?
And if I was to look at ourSunday night average service
attendance, I'm I'm I'mabsolutely sure we're at over
five percent.
And the way you're talking, ifyou've got three rows from
OzTag, you'll be over fivepercent in the Sunday nights.
(19:16):
Yeah, yeah.
The the question for me is arewe getting it in the morning?
And I'm not sure we are.
Yeah, Dave, what's your sense ofhow are you encouraging people
on that?
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
Well, in essence, uh what we need to do, I think,
when it comes to evangelism, iswork out uh what converts
people, uh, which is the gospel.
How does it happen?
Over 2,000 years, we've seen theword, people, time, and prayer
are generally always combined insome way.
Uh, and that predominantly worksfor old adults, young adults,
(19:46):
youth, uh in different formats.
Uh, I'm certainly seeing, Ithink, churches that have for
the last 20 years seen a goodratio, that 5% figure uh of
conversions happening all thetime.
Um, they have seen an increasein conversion with their young
adult, not the same radicalincrease in mourning in the
(20:07):
older crew, but a still steadystream of people converted.
So, what converts people whenit's hostile and what converts
people when there may beopenness is actually the same
thing.
Uh, and so uh yeah, I I I thinkthe main thing I'm noticing is
not that the mourning uh oldergeneration is getting harder,
but rather they're staying hard.
(20:28):
So it's always difficult.
And the younger people, it'sstill difficult, uh, always
hard, but yeah, there hasn'tbeen the same openness, the same
willingness.
I also wonder if a part of thatis um we are riding the wave of
with a younger generation of theincrease of Christian schooling.
And so Christian schooling canbe overdone in its
(20:50):
effectiveness.
We can't overthink all this isparticularly profoundly
effective.
But one of the most helpfulthings is that it can shape
people's plausibility of thegospel.
And I've noticed with youngadults, in particular in the
last two years, that huge swathof the new converts are people
who have had more than one ortwo meetings with Christian
people over their previous 20years or whatever.
(21:13):
And that may be a Christianteacher, it may be a friend
they've met who goes to youth,and a lot of them have gone to a
Christian type school where theyweren't converted, they're not
from Christian families, but itwas enough that as they go out
into the world and they drinkthe world's water and they
realize this is toil.
This is not taking it.
This is poison.
Yeah.
That actually, so long as wehave stuff, we're ready, we're
(21:33):
prepared to have events and umuh conversion moments where
young adults can be broughtinto, well, and adults, but just
that we have stuff appropriatelypitched and targeted uh for
those demographics, we'll getthem.
SPEAKER_03 (21:47):
Now, what about um as we've talked about this kind
of revival amongst the young,and um some people have been
saying we've got to go moreliturgy.
And um, I mean, I had aconversation with Glenn
Scrivener um a couple of monthsago here.
He said you should go that way.
I'll I'll just play that just acouple of seconds and then we'll
pick that up.
Sure.
SPEAKER_02 (22:07):
And what they want is something deep and rich and
old and tethered andchallenging, and the strangeness
of Christianity is actually anattractive thing.
The ancientness of Christianityis actually an attractive thing.
And I I think we we need to beclever about how we respond to
this surprising rebirth.
(22:27):
Because I think the sort ofthings that I learnt at Bible
college 20 years ago was kind ofto get rid of anything
challenging, to get rid ofanything that was a barrier to
faith, to get rid of anythingthat that made Christianity look
ancient.
And we were constantly trying tolet's do cafe-style church,
right?
Let's let's have you know chairsin a circle rather than in rows,
(22:48):
and let's let's get rid ofsacraments, and we we won't do a
weekly communion because thatmight not be good for mission.
The people who show up in churchnow, they're like, Where's your
communion?
Why have you got kneelers andnobody's kneeling?
And like, why, why, why are wenot reading the Bible more?
SPEAKER_03 (23:04):
Now that's Glenn Scrivener, but it's not just
him.
Lots of people I'm I'm um amongmy friends seem to be saying,
uh, we've got to get back toback to liturgy, back to prayer
book.
And I'm thinking, I just can'tsee that as effectively
connecting with the young adult.
But what do you think, David?
SPEAKER_01 (23:24):
Oh, I think I have a very strong opinion, Dominic.
I I think that's nonsense,actually.
Uh I think what we're doing, uhthe what Glenn did, and I
respect Glenn, but that was afalse dichotomy he's presenting
there, where he's saying, ah, uhpeople are coming, and in the
past we did cafe church and wegot rid of everything just to
(23:45):
make it palatable, and thatdidn't really work.
Now they're looking for thingsthat are ancient.
I agree with that, and I don'tthink we should change.
Well, I think cafe church hasalways been a dud, by the way,
but I don't think we shouldchange and uh try and pander to
our culture and be cool, we'renot cool, all those type of
things.
But the thing they're lookingfor, truly, that's ancient is
(24:06):
not that we're wearing dressesor lighting candles or reciting
words, it is the living,breathing word of God that
transforms souls.
So the the battles that werefought here in Sydney to get rid
of the trope of uh liturgicalform, which by the way, is
prevalent and present in everyheretical denomination you can
come up with.
(24:26):
And not only that, if you lookat the denominations and
churches which see the leastconversions and are responsible
for the most people walkingaway, they are liturgy heavy to
the max.
Okay.
So what what are we actuallysaying?
That's not liturgy.
It's not liturgy people need norwant.
It's the word.
The mistake is to view oh, whatthey what the mis what he is
(24:48):
fighting against, I think, isthe seeker service movement,
which cuts out even the wordbecause we don't want to
confront people with that.
And what we have fought for,I'll use Sydney Anglicanism, if
I may, uh, so hard, was to totry and strip away unhelpful
barriers to the living,breathing word of God where
people encounter the living,breathing, ruling, reigning king
(25:09):
of kings.
Uh, and and that's only becausethe liturgical framework is so
unhelpful in uh building falseassurance of salvation.
So the I've certainly I'll justput it as as plainly as I can,
not that I've been subtle sofar, but I'll put it as plainly
as I can.
If we're just to talk pragmaticsabout conversions, the churches
(25:31):
in England, the United Kingdom,America, Australia, Canada, New
Zealand that see the mostconversions have almost no
liturgical framework whatsoever.
It's fake news, and often, I'mnot saying like this of Glenn,
but unfortunately it's oftendriven by a confirmation bias
that I like it.
So I'm gonna make sure everyoneelse has to go through it
because I like it.
(25:51):
And so I'm gonna put on a collarand I'm gonna light a candle.
Uh, but it's not shown byevidence whatsoever that it
leads to people to Christ or toconversion.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (26:00):
And I I became a Christian a few years ago.
Um, and I was a young adult, andone of the things that caught my
attention from Iranianbackground.
Yes, yes, yes, from a Muslimbackground, and one of the
things that caught my attentionwas the building that this is
normal building, and people arenormal people, and they're not
weird.
So that was that was the thingthat caught my attention, not
(26:20):
liturgy and the service, theorder of service and stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (26:23):
Now, um, both of you, Sam, and you pre spoke
about the main conversion enginein your churches being uh the
course.
And and that's been myexperience, and I've been
thumping on about running anevangelistic course four times a
year for 20 years, and but um uhDave, you're doing one night
(26:44):
evangelism and why when we'reseeing the course work.
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
Yeah, so uh pre-Sam.
SPEAKER_03 (26:51):
I mean you just you argued for it a minute ago.
Time, word, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:55):
Prayer people are spot on.
So uh pre-Sam and I uh are partof uh the alive movement where
we are launching a series ofyeah, one night evangelistic
rallies uh in Sydney andWollongong, five of them, uh
across the city.
And they're and they're gonna betargeted at young adults.
Now, why?
SPEAKER_03 (27:14):
Yeah, because it goes against the whole logic
that we've been arguing the last30 minutes.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Well, I don't know if it does.
I think it's all aboutunderstanding churches and
understanding where this fitsin.
So I think in the last 20, 30years, we've seen evangelistic
one-off events done very badlyin Sydney, and that's
predominantly because theyreally are not paying much
attention to churches andchurches' pathways and
(27:40):
frameworks.
So therefore, they'll come intotown, they'll put something on,
uh, and then you've got achoice.
Should I bring my friend tointroducing God or discover, or
should I bring my friend to thisevangelistic event?
SPEAKER_03 (27:50):
Um, I mean, we gave a pretty damning critique of the
Franklin Graham one a couple ofyears ago.
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
And and of course, I hold the position, as I know
these brothers do and you do, uhDon, that the most important
place to bring a non-Christianis to a course, to a church
where they're hearing the wordovertime with people.
However, what I identified inthe last few years, but also
through working as a missionpastor at churches, was that
people need multiple evangelismmoments.
(28:17):
So is it possible to do eventsthat don't clash but complement
the existing pathway?
And so the Alive movement, we'reputting our events on at the end
of term, not at the start ofterm.
So, for example, a young adult,let's say some of the OzTag
guys, they come along to thelife series or Explaining
Christianity, they do their fiveweeks there, they're in a couple
of weeks of follow-up, they'vehad a call to response, but then
(28:38):
on Saturday night, a whole crewof people are going out to
Penrith to this event, whichagain we we hope will not be
cringe, we'll be good, where thegospel will be really clearly
proclaimed.
And what I've seen over the lasttwo years is the places where
young adults are most oftenprofessing faith that I've been
able to witness is actually inpreaching.
It doesn't just work in youth,it still works with young adults
(29:01):
so long as this isn't the firstever encounter with the gospel.
It's often the the third or thefourth.
It's an emotional moment.
So we're giving it a crackbecause we think if this is a
moment where God is doingsomething, what would it look
like for us to raise the sailsand and and and take advantage
of it the most that we could andto actually do stuff that we're
(29:23):
better together that complementschurches that doesn't clash with
them.
Uh and so that's that's theheart of the uh the movement.
But that would be yeah, alsousing the wisdom of pre and and
Sam and a bunch of the otherswho've seen the same thing
happen in youth for for yearsand years as well.
SPEAKER_03 (29:39):
I mean, that's really helpful because when you
when I first heard about it, Iremember how does this work when
it just felt like it wentagainst the the grain of where
we'd been going.
SPEAKER_05 (29:51):
Yeah, yeah, and it's not just a one night thing, like
we have a clear follow-upprocess, we partner with
churches, so it's not likepeople become Christians and we
let them go.
No, we use these churches, wepartner with churches, we
connect people to churches sothey can go and maybe even like
keep going to the course.
SPEAKER_01 (30:08):
So it's not like just all right, you became a
Christian and like Yeah, and Ithink part of the part of the
the reason behind it all is adeep, deep commitment to the
word of God doing the work, butalso the importance of church.
That the church is the startingplace and the finish line of
evangelism.
It's where we want people tocome in and go.
Uh, and so these are not reallydesigned to be the very first
(30:31):
experience for people.
They're not going to be pitchedtowards cynics, atheists, and
people of other religions,they're pitched towards people
who are close.
SPEAKER_03 (30:39):
It's I mean, that's really helpful to hear because
um uh I mean one of my bigdilemmas in when I was doing
itinerant evangelism is am Idoing the first date talk or am
I doing the will you marry metalk?
And uh and if I know which whichtalk I'm doing, then I've I know
which lane to drive in.
(31:01):
And it's very helpful for me tohear that you're talking more at
the end of the will you marry metalk than the first date talk.
SPEAKER_01 (31:08):
Oh, it's let's book the venue talk.
Yeah, you know, no, it is it ispointing to uh uh so the talks
will if, for example, they won'tbe they won't be fixated on can
we trust the Bible.
Yeah, they'll point people to wecan trust the Bible.
There will be resources forpeople after it's about
trustworthiness of the Bible.
But the talk will be about whatis a Christian, what is
(31:28):
Christianity?
Because I think the Biblecertainly points to my
experience has been that mostpeople have never heard the
gospel clearly explained enoughto reject it.
Uh, but these people, some ofthem they have, and to be
honest, a lot of it is pitchedat myself at 21.
I know for you, Pri, you at 20as well, or just to go, hey, as
soon as I left youth group, Ididn't have a university
(31:51):
Christian group experience, uh,and church was full of young
families.
I was kind of like in a in anether world, and I want to say,
no, no, we've got a group ofpeople here who are the most
open statistically since what,World War II to the gospel.
Well, let's do something thatdoesn't hurt but helps churches.
Uh, and as part of that as well,we've got um our social media,
(32:16):
the Alive movement on socialmedia, madealive.net website.
So we're building a websitewhich is designed explicitly for
non-Christians, which will haveevangelistic course content and
all the things that we actuallyjust want to make sure people
are pointed to and from churchesuh because I'm a church guy.
SPEAKER_04 (32:30):
I think the thing that I love about it as well is
that I think we need to stopviewing each other as
competitors as churches, andthis is like an event that
brings us all together.
Like we're on about the the samegospel, we're on about people
saying like coming to knowJesus.
It's not about like my church oryour church or your church.
It's like we're on we're on thismission together, and I think
that's what a live bringstogether for me, which is I'm I
love it.
(32:51):
Alrighty, I'm persuaded.
SPEAKER_01 (32:53):
Yes, your original cynicism wasn't like that.
But I'm encouraged.
SPEAKER_03 (32:58):
I'm persuaded.
My guests on the pastor's heart.
Dave Jensen, he leads theevangelism part of Sydney
Anglicans, Evangelism, and newchurches.
Sam Madavi, he's uh leadingevangelism at Wollongong Baptist
Church and pre-Shun Megan HeadsUp Mission and his youth pastor
at MBM Rudy Hill in WesternSydney.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on ThePastor's Heart.
(33:20):
We will look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.