December 16, 2024 • 38 mins
It is difficult times in the Church of England.
Having previously publicly betrayed his ordination and consecration vows - the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby - has now resigned over his handling of a safeguarding matter, following the release of the Makin report.
The Church of England is tearing itself apart over sexuality.
There are more apostate bishops than faithful bishops in the English House of Bishops.
And there is now a massive group within the Church of England called The Alliance, representing 42% of the denomination’s attendance, basically pleading to the house of bishops to repent.
William Taylor has served since 1998 as the senior pastor of St Helen’s London. Taylor is paralleling the difficult times faced by Evangelicals today to those faced by the Apostle Paul at the time of writing the pastorals.
Anglican Aid
Anglican Aid - To find out more about how to support Anglican Aid.
ChurchSuite
Check out ChurchSuite at Reach Australia or at the Melbourne taster day.
The Church Co
http://www.thechurchco.com is a website and app platform built specifically for churches.
Dominic Steele's preaching at Village
Subscribe to Dominic Steele's weekly sermons from the Village Church website.
--
Become a regular financial supporter of The Pastor's Heart via Patreon.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
It is the pastor's heart.
And Dominic Steele.
And William Taylor is our guest.
He's the rector of St Helen'sChurch at Bishopsgate in London,
one of the leaders ofevangelicalism in the United
Kingdom.
He's in Australia speaking atfour major conferences over the
Christmas break.
How do you keep a church fit forpurpose in the midst of
(00:28):
difficult times?
And it is difficult times inthe Church of England.
Having previously publiclybetrayed his ordination and
consecration vows, theArchbishop of Canterbury, justin
Welby, has now resigned indisgrace over his handling of a
safeguarding matter followingthe release of the Macon Report.
(00:50):
And the Church of England istearing itself apart over
sexuality Bishops well, thereare more of them that are
apostate than faithful.
And there is now a massivegroup within the Church of
England called the Alliance,massive group within the Church
of England called the Alliance,representing 42% of that
denomination's attendance,basically pleading to the House
(01:10):
of Bishops to repent.
And how could one possiblypersuade a young man who's
seeking to give their life infull-time service to the Lord
Jesus that the Church of Englandis a good place to fish from?
And among all of this isWilliam Taylor, who has served
(01:31):
since 1998 as the Senior Pastorof St Helens London, flagship of
evangelicalism in London andWilliam.
You have been there a long timeand I remember even before you
were rector there were peoplesaying the Church of England as
a whole was a basket case.
But just take us to yourpastor's heart and what's
(01:52):
happening with your heart as youlook at the denomination in
such a shambles.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, I think it is tragic because really there is
so much that could be done inthe Church of England.
But at the end of the day Ithink our responsibility in the
local church is to keep thelocal church faithful to the
scriptures and faithful to whatGod has called us to do.
And in some senses you knowthat remains throughout.
(02:22):
And in my earliest stages ingospel ministry I spent a lot of
time training uh leaders withina congregation, in the
pastorals, and I think thepastorals is just the place to
go to have one's heart, as itwere, attuned right in a time of
great uncertainty.
And you think of, you think oftwo timothy, with everybody
(02:44):
deserting the Apostle Paul inthe whole of Asia.
And you think of 1 Timothy, withso much compromise and
uncertainty, and I think that'salways been the place where I'd
want to go to make sure that I'mkind of staying straight and
stable in gospel ministry.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
And so how do you do it?
I mean, I would just think,staff meeting after staff
meeting, you'd be thinking offocusing on the latest
catastrophe, but you're sayingno, no, focus on what the
Apostle Paul is saying.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I think so.
I mean, I think you've got tobe real and realise the
situation that you're in, and soyou know we are in a
denomination and if and as thedenomination becomes more and
more apostate, then you have totake appropriate biblical steps.
(03:32):
I mean, it's really interestingthat the end of Romans, which
is a letter designed to see thechurch in Rome focused in
supporting the Apostle Paul inministry in Spain, so it's kind
of, in that sense, ministryevangelistically geared.
Right at the end he says thatpeople will come in teaching
different doctrines.
(03:53):
And how are you to cope withthat?
To keep the church online,missionally and evangelistically
?
Avoid them.
And so I think the Bible does.
And you get exactly the same in2 Timothy avoid them.
So I think the Bible, god, doesgive us instruction on what
we're to do in situations likethis.
But to give over every staffmeeting to talking about the
(04:16):
Church of England, honestly thatwould be a complete waste of
time.
So we are developing a clearstrategy as to how we will
respond in certain circumstancesand situations and we're clear
on what the big picture is interms of keeping biblical
ministry in the city and in thecity of London and further
(04:39):
afield.
But the daily business ofgospel ministry continues and I
think again, the pastoral is agreat place to go.
We're told what to do there.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Well, let's just dig in there for a moment and have a
look together at 2 Timothy 4.
And I solemnly charge youbefore God and Christ Jesus,
who's going to judge the livingand the dead because of his
appearing in his kingdom, preachthe word, be ready in season,
out of season, rebuke, correct,encourage with great patience
(05:10):
and teaching.
That's our job.
Yeah, for the time will comewhen people will not tolerate
sound doctrine according totheir own desires, will not
tolerate sound doctrineaccording to their own desires,
will not multiply teachers forthemselves because they have an
itch to hear what they want tohear.
(05:31):
I mean, that does sound likeyou.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
It is, and interestingly, I mean when I was
at theological seminary back inthe late 1980s this particular
issue, I mean I think it's sodifficult for those who struggle
in the area of same-sextemptation to same-sex
attraction.
It's so difficult that that isthe issue, because it's such a
kind of visceral struggle forpeople who are battling in this
(05:55):
particular area.
I always like to say look,we're all sexual sinners, every
single one of us.
You know, you don't speak kindof six miles above contradiction
or not engaged in the battle asa pastor.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And you are doing.
I mean, I remember meeting ayoung woman at St Helens when I
was visiting there one day whoherself had a significant battle
with same-sex attraction andbeing encouraged in the midst of
your ministry to be a faithfulfollower of the Lord Jesus and
walk faithfully with Christ.
And you have got a ministrygoing on there.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, yeah I mean there are numbers of people and
have been both on the staff andin the wider congregation who
are tempted in the area ofsame-sex attraction.
There'll be so in many, manychurches.
But within that battle withinthe denomination for teaching
God's truth on these matters hasbeen going on since 1988.
(06:51):
So it's been a constantthroughout the last 30 years of
my kind of gospel work really.
But in that setting, I mean,here is the Apostle Paul, and I
think you've got both 2 Timothy2.2, which gives you one very
clear strategy when you'refacing conflict and division.
(07:13):
You know, teach others to teachothers.
You know what you've heard fromme to faithful people who will
be able to teach and trainothers.
So that seems one key plank inthe strategy.
And the other one is do thework of an evangelist that
you've got there um in in versefive, sober-minded, endure
suffering and do the work of anevangelist fulfilled or
(07:35):
discharge your ministry.
And so I think um in in all ofthis to keep our clarity in
terms of gospel proclamation.
That's what we're about.
And then training of people whoare going to be able to teach
others in due course is alsowhat we're about and we keep
that front and center.
(07:56):
As well as the personal charge,you know it's our charge as
pastors.
I remember talking to dicklucas as my predecessor at St
Helens, who was there for 37years, and we were sitting.
I was about to start a sermonseries in 1 Timothy and we were
chatting about 1 Timothy and hejust turned to me and said that
is your charge, william, it'syour charge.
(08:18):
He was pinned to the back of myseat.
But that's right, that's ourcharge.
You know to look to ourselves,to watch yourself, to guard your
faith and doctrine closely, tobe an example to the flock and a
whole congregation in the workof evangelism.
That's what's going to keep thechurch for the next generation
(08:50):
as we keep on reaching out withthe gospel and teaching people
in the gospel.
And then am I training people tobe the next generation, as it
were, of people who are going tolead in gospel churches, in
whatever denomination orwhatever kind of polity they
happen to?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
find themselves.
So has it slowed down?
I mean, I'm just thinking about, with so much fire going on
around you, have you been ableto keep your focus, and how is
the process of raising up thenext generation of gospel
(09:30):
minister and raising up the nextgeneration of Christian?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I mean I'd love to talk about both in those in
separate blocks, if you're happywith that, and I think in terms
of outreach and evangelism.
No, I really don't think it has.
In fact this is purelyanecdotal, but in the UK at the
moment, I think there's a wholegeneration who have kind of
tasted their parents' skepticismand not really satisfied with
(10:00):
it, and are looking around and Imean you've seen the sort of
Justin Brawley material.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
We're going to get the campus leaders on here in a
couple of weeks' time becauseI'm hearing that we've had more
converts at Sydney Uni and theUniversity of New South Wales
this year than in living memoryNew South Wales this year than
in age in living memory.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
You know, and I sat next to a lad I was speaking
actually in a Mitsubishi factorydown with Paul Harrington, in
one of the church plants downthere in Adelaide, and sitting
down right in front of me in thekind of meet somebody in the
meeting session.
This young lad had read JordanPeterson, then therefore read
(10:49):
Carl Jung, was thinking what isthe nearest thing to the good
things that I'm hearing here?
Jesus, surely, and had come,and this was his second, third
week in church to find out whatJesus had got to say.
And I think that's allanecdotal, but I do think there
is something going on at themoment.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
So my observation for… and with young men
particularly, do you think?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I don't.
I think in England you wouldsay the most difficult group to
reach would be white anglos intheir 50s and over.
You know, skeptical, they are apeople group that it's really
hard to reach.
With the gospel it just seemsthat they're they're children,
(11:36):
they've tasted kind of the newatheism and so forth I don't
like the taste.
Well, I don't like it, butthey're looking for something
else and I think that gives us.
And they don't have quite this.
They don't quite know what itis that their parents were
skeptical about.
Yeah, so I think in ourchurches we have focused um over
the last 20 years or so, a loton kind of event evangelism, um,
(12:01):
and what we've tried to do inSt Helens is, if you like,
refocus on personal evangelism.
Now I think the church as anevangelistic unit is absolutely
essential and the language of achurch being the plausibility
structure for the gospel.
(12:22):
You see it at work in a church.
So I'm not trying to undermineevent and that sort of thing,
but are we as strong on ourpersonal evangelism and working
one-to-one with people insharing the gospel?
So we've worked very hard atthat as a church and we've also
(12:42):
worked very hard at trainingpeople evangelism at a much
lower level.
Do you remember all the olddialogue events that we used to
have?
So a few years back we said weare going to train every single
small group to hold their owndialogue event and we've got
probably 200 small groups at StHelens and we trained every
(13:04):
single small group leader to beable to give a short five-minute
gospel presentation and thishappens every year.
Now that we have a week or afortnight where we stop our
small groups and every groupwill host an event at which they
invite their friends, that'sbeen extraordinarily fruitful,
(13:25):
so that you've got bothone-to-one and small group and
then event.
I think if you just focus onthe event, it's kind of like an
upside-down pyramid.
You're not putting the weightwhere it needs to be.
If we train a whole church inconfident personal witness and
outreach, then when you put onyour event or when you've got an
(13:48):
ordinary Sunday I say anordinary, it's never ordinary,
but we've got a Sunday meetingPeople have got friends who they
want to bring along and theyknow what to do with them and
what to say with them.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
And what about the raising up for ministry?
Because I mean, I remember Ithink when we were talking at
the GAFCON conference in Kigalilast year, you were talking
about a number of traineescoming through but less choosing
to step up for Church ofEngland ordination.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
So historically we would havesent sort of three to five,
sometimes five to ten peoplethrough to college every year,
and they weren't all kind of outof St Helens.
They might have spent some timewith us, having been nurtured
elsewhere, but they would gofrom St Helens to college.
Now I mean, maybe one might go,but they're just not prepared
(14:38):
to go through into theologicalseminary.
They might go to FIEC, traineeChristian leaders, and they are
going for training, but they areremaining with us in service
and with other churches inservice as they train and then
(14:59):
we're commissioning themformally and publicly at the end
of their training.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And you had one of these services.
The other week we did, we'vehad two.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
We had one in 2023 and one in 2024.
The much more public one wasthe 2024 one, but what I think
that is encouraging about thatis that there is now a pathway
that has been established.
These guys have been on formalselection panels.
(15:29):
It's been done in a recognisedway within our network of
churches.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
So it's the beginning of the setting up of a process
to approve people for ministryand authorise people for
ministry.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
And all seven of them have stepped in.
So the great question I takeI'm, I, my, I take my hat off to
these guys because, um, it's abig thing, you know, this was
four or five years ago to say,okay, well, I'm 22, 23, 24 and
I'm going to commit myself tothis process, but I've no idea
what's quite what's at the endof it, because we haven't quite
(16:08):
worked it out yet.
Well, thank the Lord that atthe end of the process there was
a commissioning service.
People from across the alliancewere there and were prepared to
speak openly in support of it,and every one of these
individuals has gone into paidgospel ministry in a complete
(16:31):
cross-section of ministrypositions.
So very, very small church witha much more sort of struggling
congregation.
Somebody's gone to one likethat.
Somebody's gone somewhere rightoutside of London, up in Derby.
(16:52):
He's doing a great job thereand his senior pastor just
contacted me the other daysaying thank you so much, he's
doing such a great job.
And then a couple of them havecome to our churches, but there
have been jobs for them at theend, which I think is what
people worry about, and the planis for these, or some like them
, to be ordained.
(17:13):
Yeah, they will be ordained in2025, for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Right, because I did read of this service that you
had and some people critical ofit, saying you kind of were all
staying exactly within the linesof Church of England
expectations or something likethat, but when you ordain them
next year, that will be a groupof you saying we have no
(17:39):
confidence in the Church ofEngland ordination process and
so it's now necessary for us toset up our own process.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, that's right.
I mean that has to be the case.
I mean these guys effectivelyhave been publicly recognised by
groups of churches and they areworking across those churches
in public ministry.
Now we call it a commissioning,but you could call it lots of
other things.
I mean, it's effectively what'sgoing on in hands being laid on
(18:10):
Timothy, for example.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
I mean well, but the words will be ordained for word
and sacrament.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
I mean, when it happens next year, they will be
ordained formally.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah, right, but it will be… and that's really part
of the setting up the trajectoryto setting up the informal
province that you're talkingabout Absolutely talking about.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
And all of this is contingent on whether or not the
bishops determined to set up aseparate structure for those who
want to remain within theChurch of England to operate
within.
If they set up a satisfactorystructure and make what we call
provision, then a service likethis won't be necessary.
But my observation is that todate, the bishops have wanted to
(18:56):
hang on to their own powerrather than serve the churches,
and so they're very unwilling tolet go of their power.
And I think it's a great, greatshame, because if they were
prepared to cede, you know theirperceived power and allow…
which is really the power forlicensing, isn't it it?
(19:17):
is.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah, that's right.
I mean I take it for you.
I mean, here am I.
I worry about who will comeafter me, you know, and yet the
bishop over me is a good guy,you know, and you must worry
(19:40):
about succession at St Helens.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Well, it depends how old you think I am, Donny.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Well, I think you're older than me.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Okay, fair enough, yeah of course we're thinking
about that, I think.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
And not just, I mean, you're in a much more secure
position than many otherchurches.
You're absolutely right.
And I mean, where am I?
I've invested time in buildinga building project.
I've invested time in buyinghouses a house for this church.
I'm leaving the place in abetter property position than I
found it, and but why would I dothat if I'm going to give it to
(20:15):
a?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
heretic.
So we are very clear as achurch leadership that our goal
is to secure evangelicalministry in the City of London
and beyond, and we're very, Ithink that that kind of aim is
well chosen in what it doesn'tsay and what it does say.
(20:37):
Our goal above everything elseis to secure evangelical
ministry in the City of London.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So you've left the word Anglican out of that
sentence.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I have.
I mean, I happen to think thatthe English Reformation is a
really good expression of kindof reformed theology and there's
a difference between theEnglish and the Continental and
I happen to prefer the EnglishReformation.
So that's why I like Anglican asa sort of way of doing things,
(21:06):
but for that reason.
But we have left the wordAnglican deliberately and we've
left Church of Englanddeliberately because our goal is
to secure evangelical ministry.
But it would be, I think,foolish in the extreme just to
put your hands on your hips andflounce off immediately when
(21:29):
there is still and some peoplewill say, okay, well, fair
enough, you're living in cloudcuckoo land and maybe.
But I feel we must give it ourbest shot.
And my encouragement always topeople who say well, look, stay
in for as long as you can sothat we have our best shot at
securing provision.
(21:51):
Because if we secure provision,then for churches like ours
that have very strategicallyplaced buildings, they are a
huge, huge gospel bonus, andthat's not true for everybody.
So we've got multiple churchplants now all over London and
further afield and many of themaren't meeting in Church of
(22:12):
England buildings at all and Ican quite easily see them saying
actually no.
No, we don't need any of this.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
we'll go and join one anglican mission, england or or
whatever I see, or something,yeah, whatever one of them, one
of them has right.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
And uh, the bishop said, well, no, I, I insist on
being there for the installationof the successor.
And the successor said, well,I'm not prepared to have you
there.
And so he said so.
So they said, well, okay, fairenough, we won't be Church of
England in that case.
Well, I mean, that's a veryinteresting plant, that church
(22:46):
plant, because when we plantedit I was met by lawyers and the
incumbent of the parish in whichwe planted it, which was in a
separate diocese, and I went tosay we're starting a church in
your parish.
She was there, as was thelawyer, and the bishop warned
everybody, because they owned alot of land there, not to take
(23:07):
us, take the plant on board.
Could they come back in?
So they then came in.
They came into the diocese forfive years or so.
Now succession has come and thediocese has said well, we
insist that the bishop is therefor the installation.
And we said, well, I'm sorry,but you're a heretic, we're not
(23:28):
going to have you there at theinstallation.
And the result is they've leftagain.
They've left the property, no,no, they've kept it because
they're meeting in a school.
Oh, okay, right, I think ifyou've not got that issue, you
may be a little bit more fleetof foot and some people on
conscience will say actually no,I've had enough and I can't go
on.
Well, I don't want to kind ofde-church them or anything like
(23:51):
that.
No, no Good on them.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
That's their decision and they will go and meet
wherever they meet and they'veleft the church and we should
not fall out um over over thosekind of decisions.
But do you think the um?
Uh well, sarah malali and thosekind of people just think, um
well, they're never going toleave, we'll just put up, we'll
just keep making it harder forthem.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
No, I think they think we are prepared to lose 10
percent.
We'll just put up.
We'll just keep making itharder for them.
No, I think they think we areprepared to lose 10%.
Keep going, well.
I think well.
I mean, I know they've saidthat they are prepared to lose
10% at either end.
Right, and therefore, if weleave, I don't think that's a
particular, I mean, it'd be aconcern for them, but I think
(24:41):
they've already, as it were,factored that in.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
But when you see now 43% of the population of the
Church of.
England is represented by theAlliance.
That would be just devastating.
You'd be very, very foolishindeed, and are you seeing any
signs of a walk back from them?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
not yet.
Um, I mean, what is interestingis, you know, there are five of
the 42 diocese who have amembership of 70, uh, 50 of
their membership are 70 or over.
And then there's a further twodioceses where 49% of their
(25:21):
membership is 70 years old orover.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
So everyone younger is with you.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
No, no, no.
There are five dioceses in theChurch of England where you know
over 50% of the membership ofthat entire diocese is over 70.
So you just sort of think, ifyou do wave goodbye to the 43%
of the church, most of whom willbe the younger end, it will be
extreme folly.
(25:47):
But you never know what theHouse of Bishops might do.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So it does look like these ordinations will go ahead
next year early next yearsometime.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yeah, but the plan is for us to have these men
ordained.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
And I think you were telling me that it will
essentially be a moment of wellgroup defiance of the Church of
England Episcopacy or a momentof group.
We've lost confidence in your.
I mean really like that churchwas in that school hall.
(26:27):
We don't want you, we don'ttrust you to the bishop.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I think that's right.
I mean, I think you knowsomebody once put it to me in
military terms.
I don't know why they did that,but they said you know that the
church leaders are likebattalion commanders and they
have completely lost confidencein the generals.
That may not be a metaphor thatworks for you, but I think I
(26:52):
can understand it.
The guys on the front line whoare leading the churches have
lost confidence in the House ofBishops on so many different
levels.
You know, you can just openyour newspaper this morning and
you can see that the levels atwhich um and the different
levels of which there is noconfidence in the leadership um
coming from the house of bishopsand um, if they're not prepared
(27:15):
to make provision for activeand effective gospel ministry,
then we have to take it into ourown hands.
Now it's a lot easier for us todo that at St Helens Than the
guy who's on his own, than theguy who's on his own.
But I do think that we have todo things which make it then
possible for others, thenpossible for others.
And other people are doing thesort of things which five years
(27:39):
ago, you know, some otherchurches did and was considered
to be completely outrageous.
And now other churches arepicking up, and my encouragement
to every church leader is youmust do something.
You must.
Just writing a letter is notenough.
You've got to do something todistance yourself from a house
(28:01):
of bishops that is heretical.
Now it's not like Sydney.
We've got 42 dioceses, soyou're just one diocese.
So we've got 42 dioceses with42 different bishops and
different settings, so what oneperson does in one diocese might
be different to what anotherperson.
And then you've got churches,some of whom only have their
(28:24):
church wardens with them.
Some of them it's just theincumbent, the senior minister,
and others it'll have the churchwardens and the church council,
but not the congregation.
So what I'm wanting toencourage people to do is to do
the most strong thing youpossibly can do, and for us it
has been okay.
(28:45):
We're going to break partnershipwith the House of Bishops.
We'll stop giving them anymoney at all, except for
safeguarding and the kind ofcentral provisions they make.
We make a little contributionto my housing, but we don't pay
anything else in terms of ourcosts anymore to the centre.
So we stop paying money.
We make a little contributionto my housing, but we don't pay
anything else in terms of ourcosts anymore to the centre.
So we stopped paying money.
We've broken partnership withthe House of Bishops and we
(29:05):
remain under them forsafeguarding, but we are now
training and commissioning ourown gospel workers for public
ministry across ourcongregations and across
congregations of many otherchurches.
Now what?
Speaker 1 (29:18):
about the church planting.
Has that slowed down or is thatstill happening?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Well, I mean, funnily enough, during lockdown we
started a new congregation.
I mean, it was completely aresult of lockdown Because we
couldn't have all the kids um inchurch and you had to meet in
family units.
One of the um buildings wasused for um families with their
(29:46):
children around them, andtowards the end of lockdown
somebody came and said well,this is going so well, let's
keep going.
Why don't we keep going?
So um, it was rather.
It's a rather wonderful thing.
There's now a new familycongregation, but this time last
year.
I mean we've always sought toplant churches.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
I guess in around about 2001,.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I sought to turn St Helens into a church planting
church and that took about ayear to work through as a church
family and since then we'vebeen planting churches as
vigorously as we can.
And this time last year wethought, come on, it's high time
we got kicked off again, and sowe are planning two church
(30:31):
plants in the next two years,one this coming September 25.
Where's that going to be?
Well, we hope it'll be insomewhere in south, in our
southwest London.
Right, yeah, that's veryspecific, I'm not going to tell
you more about that.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
You've got more public negotiations to take
place.
There's a little bit morenegotiation.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
I think it's been very in our church planting work
it's been really important forus to realize that really what
we plant is the seed of God'sword and that's the biblical
language.
But what we do is buildchurches.
I don't mean with bricks andmortar, but the language is
building the church.
And so we've tried to help ourchurch planters see themselves
(31:19):
as church builders and I thinkthat's helped us a huge amount.
When it comes to all thetraining side, they're not just
kind of pioneer, kind of ruggedindividuals who branch I mean
there's an element of that to it, obviously but actually the
senior pastor, the teachers inthe church, are there to build
the church.
And if you build senior pastor,the teachers in the church are
there to build the church.
And if you build it right, thenthere'll be a huge amount of
(31:42):
ministry of the planting of theword going on.
So that's been a big lesson forus, I think, over the last 20
something years.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
But with all this crisis going around, the church
planting is still happening.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
That's the key thing, yeah for sure and the structure
into which they will come.
Who knows?
At this stage, you know we'renot quite sure yet quite what
they will be Right.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
So, whether or not they plant in a dead Church of
England building or into an Amystructure or an Anglican mission
in England.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
structure yeah, that's right.
So I mean we have kind of, uh,at least two models.
So we we have something we callbecause we're a city center
church and there are alwayspeople leaving for you know
stage of life reasons we havewhat we call church trickle,
where we will nominate a numberof churches that we think, and
(32:41):
we're in partnership, wouldreally benefit from you going
into certain A small number, asmall number, and so we will say
here are the four churches.
Now one of them is an FIECchurch.
In the current four that we'vegot at the moment, they're not
all Church of England churches.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
They're Bible churches.
They're.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Bible churches, I mean the whole denominational
thing, I think, is you don'tfind denomination in the Bible.
You find local church andgospel partnership, and so what
we're wanting to do is tricklesome people across and there are
these four churches at themoment that we're working on,
but at the same time take then40, 30, 40, 50, 80 people and
(33:23):
start a whole new church family.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
What happens when you retire?
How does?
What's the process for choosingthe next minister?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
you know, yeah well, every church um has nominators,
like you do here In England.
We have patrons and they have asay, but at the end of the day
it's the congregation that needsto kind of….
Speaker 1 (33:47):
So at that level the bishop's just a secretary.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
No the bishop actually has a say and has a
part in all of that, and that'swhy them making some sort of
provision is absolutelyessential because if you're
going to be say, avoid the falseteacher, you can't have the
false teacher.
Be the person who has thisexactly, and so if they don't
make, the more they fail to makeprovision, the more we will
(34:13):
preserve evangelical ministry inthe city of London becomes
significant.
I mean that becomes significantanyway, but the more the
weighting of that, matt, interms of the weight of that,
wording becomes very significant.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Thank you so much for coming and talking to us.
William Taylor has been myguest.
He is the senior minister of StHelen's Church at Bishop's Gate
in London, and I guess thething we remember is do the work
of an evangelist preach thegospel in season and out of
season.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
It is the pastor's heart.
And Dominic Steele.
And William Taylor is our guest.
He's the rector of St Helen'sChurch at Bishopsgate in London,
one of the leaders ofevangelicalism in the United
Kingdom.
He's in Australia speaking atfour major conferences over the
Christmas break.
How do you keep a church fit forpurpose in the midst of
(00:28):
difficult times?
And it is difficult times inthe Church of England.
Having previously publiclybetrayed his ordination and
consecration vows, theArchbishop of Canterbury, justin
Welby, has now resigned indisgrace over his handling of a
safeguarding matter followingthe release of the Macon Report.
(00:50):
And the Church of England istearing itself apart over
sexuality Bishops well, thereare more of them that are
apostate than faithful.
And there is now a massivegroup within the Church of
England called the Alliance,massive group within the Church
of England called the Alliance,representing 42% of that
denomination's attendance,basically pleading to the House
(01:10):
of Bishops to repent.
And how could one possiblypersuade a young man who's
seeking to give their life infull-time service to the Lord
Jesus that the Church of Englandis a good place to fish from?
And among all of this isWilliam Taylor, who has served
(01:31):
since 1998 as the Senior Pastorof St Helens London, flagship of
evangelicalism in London andWilliam.
You have been there a long timeand I remember even before you
were rector there were peoplesaying the Church of England as
a whole was a basket case.
But just take us to yourpastor's heart and what's
(01:52):
happening with your heart as youlook at the denomination in
such a shambles.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, I think it is tragic because really there is
so much that could be done inthe Church of England.
But at the end of the day Ithink our responsibility in the
local church is to keep thelocal church faithful to the
scriptures and faithful to whatGod has called us to do.
And in some senses you knowthat remains throughout.
(02:22):
And in my earliest stages ingospel ministry I spent a lot of
time training uh leaders withina congregation, in the
pastorals, and I think thepastorals is just the place to
go to have one's heart, as itwere, attuned right in a time of
great uncertainty.
And you think of, you think oftwo timothy, with everybody
(02:44):
deserting the Apostle Paul inthe whole of Asia.
And you think of 1 Timothy, withso much compromise and
uncertainty, and I think that'salways been the place where I'd
want to go to make sure that I'mkind of staying straight and
stable in gospel ministry.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
And so how do you do it?
I mean, I would just think,staff meeting after staff
meeting, you'd be thinking offocusing on the latest
catastrophe, but you're sayingno, no, focus on what the
Apostle Paul is saying.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I think so.
I mean, I think you've got tobe real and realise the
situation that you're in, and soyou know we are in a
denomination and if and as thedenomination becomes more and
more apostate, then you have totake appropriate biblical steps.
(03:32):
I mean, it's really interestingthat the end of Romans, which
is a letter designed to see thechurch in Rome focused in
supporting the Apostle Paul inministry in Spain, so it's kind
of, in that sense, ministryevangelistically geared.
Right at the end he says thatpeople will come in teaching
different doctrines.
(03:53):
And how are you to cope withthat?
To keep the church online,missionally and evangelistically
?
Avoid them.
And so I think the Bible does.
And you get exactly the same in2 Timothy avoid them.
So I think the Bible, god, doesgive us instruction on what
we're to do in situations likethis.
But to give over every staffmeeting to talking about the
(04:16):
Church of England, honestly thatwould be a complete waste of
time.
So we are developing a clearstrategy as to how we will
respond in certain circumstancesand situations and we're clear
on what the big picture is interms of keeping biblical
ministry in the city and in thecity of London and further
(04:39):
afield.
But the daily business ofgospel ministry continues and I
think again, the pastoral is agreat place to go.
We're told what to do there.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Well, let's just dig in there for a moment and have a
look together at 2 Timothy 4.
And I solemnly charge youbefore God and Christ Jesus,
who's going to judge the livingand the dead because of his
appearing in his kingdom, preachthe word, be ready in season,
out of season, rebuke, correct,encourage with great patience
(05:10):
and teaching.
That's our job.
Yeah, for the time will comewhen people will not tolerate
sound doctrine according totheir own desires, will not
tolerate sound doctrineaccording to their own desires,
will not multiply teachers forthemselves because they have an
itch to hear what they want tohear.
(05:31):
I mean, that does sound likeyou.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
It is, and interestingly, I mean when I was
at theological seminary back inthe late 1980s this particular
issue, I mean I think it's sodifficult for those who struggle
in the area of same-sextemptation to same-sex
attraction.
It's so difficult that that isthe issue, because it's such a
kind of visceral struggle forpeople who are battling in this
(05:55):
particular area.
I always like to say look,we're all sexual sinners, every
single one of us.
You know, you don't speak kindof six miles above contradiction
or not engaged in the battle asa pastor.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And you are doing.
I mean, I remember meeting ayoung woman at St Helens when I
was visiting there one day whoherself had a significant battle
with same-sex attraction andbeing encouraged in the midst of
your ministry to be a faithfulfollower of the Lord Jesus and
walk faithfully with Christ.
And you have got a ministrygoing on there.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, yeah I mean there are numbers of people and
have been both on the staff andin the wider congregation who
are tempted in the area ofsame-sex attraction.
There'll be so in many, manychurches.
But within that battle withinthe denomination for teaching
God's truth on these matters hasbeen going on since 1988.
(06:51):
So it's been a constantthroughout the last 30 years of
my kind of gospel work really.
But in that setting, I mean,here is the Apostle Paul, and I
think you've got both 2 Timothy2.2, which gives you one very
clear strategy when you'refacing conflict and division.
(07:13):
You know, teach others to teachothers.
You know what you've heard fromme to faithful people who will
be able to teach and trainothers.
So that seems one key plank inthe strategy.
And the other one is do thework of an evangelist that
you've got there um in in versefive, sober-minded, endure
suffering and do the work of anevangelist fulfilled or
(07:35):
discharge your ministry.
And so I think um in in all ofthis to keep our clarity in
terms of gospel proclamation.
That's what we're about.
And then training of people whoare going to be able to teach
others in due course is alsowhat we're about and we keep
that front and center.
(07:56):
As well as the personal charge,you know it's our charge as
pastors.
I remember talking to dicklucas as my predecessor at St
Helens, who was there for 37years, and we were sitting.
I was about to start a sermonseries in 1 Timothy and we were
chatting about 1 Timothy and hejust turned to me and said that
is your charge, william, it'syour charge.
(08:18):
He was pinned to the back of myseat.
But that's right, that's ourcharge.
You know to look to ourselves,to watch yourself, to guard your
faith and doctrine closely, tobe an example to the flock and a
whole congregation in the workof evangelism.
That's what's going to keep thechurch for the next generation
(08:50):
as we keep on reaching out withthe gospel and teaching people
in the gospel.
And then am I training people tobe the next generation, as it
were, of people who are going tolead in gospel churches, in
whatever denomination orwhatever kind of polity they
happen to?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
find themselves.
So has it slowed down?
I mean, I'm just thinking about, with so much fire going on
around you, have you been ableto keep your focus, and how is
the process of raising up thenext generation of gospel
(09:30):
minister and raising up the nextgeneration of Christian?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I mean I'd love to talk about both in those in
separate blocks, if you're happywith that, and I think in terms
of outreach and evangelism.
No, I really don't think it has.
In fact this is purelyanecdotal, but in the UK at the
moment, I think there's a wholegeneration who have kind of
tasted their parents' skepticismand not really satisfied with
(10:00):
it, and are looking around and Imean you've seen the sort of
Justin Brawley material.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
We're going to get the campus leaders on here in a
couple of weeks' time becauseI'm hearing that we've had more
converts at Sydney Uni and theUniversity of New South Wales
this year than in living memoryNew South Wales this year than
in age in living memory.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
You know, and I sat next to a lad I was speaking
actually in a Mitsubishi factorydown with Paul Harrington, in
one of the church plants downthere in Adelaide, and sitting
down right in front of me in thekind of meet somebody in the
meeting session.
This young lad had read JordanPeterson, then therefore read
(10:49):
Carl Jung, was thinking what isthe nearest thing to the good
things that I'm hearing here?
Jesus, surely, and had come,and this was his second, third
week in church to find out whatJesus had got to say.
And I think that's allanecdotal, but I do think there
is something going on at themoment.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
So my observation for… and with young men
particularly, do you think?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
I don't.
I think in England you wouldsay the most difficult group to
reach would be white anglos intheir 50s and over.
You know, skeptical, they are apeople group that it's really
hard to reach.
With the gospel it just seemsthat they're they're children,
(11:36):
they've tasted kind of the newatheism and so forth I don't
like the taste.
Well, I don't like it, butthey're looking for something
else and I think that gives us.
And they don't have quite this.
They don't quite know what itis that their parents were
skeptical about.
Yeah, so I think in ourchurches we have focused um over
the last 20 years or so, a loton kind of event evangelism, um,
(12:01):
and what we've tried to do inSt Helens is, if you like,
refocus on personal evangelism.
Now I think the church as anevangelistic unit is absolutely
essential and the language of achurch being the plausibility
structure for the gospel.
(12:22):
You see it at work in a church.
So I'm not trying to undermineevent and that sort of thing,
but are we as strong on ourpersonal evangelism and working
one-to-one with people insharing the gospel?
So we've worked very hard atthat as a church and we've also
(12:42):
worked very hard at trainingpeople evangelism at a much
lower level.
Do you remember all the olddialogue events that we used to
have?
So a few years back we said weare going to train every single
small group to hold their owndialogue event and we've got
probably 200 small groups at StHelens and we trained every
(13:04):
single small group leader to beable to give a short five-minute
gospel presentation and thishappens every year.
Now that we have a week or afortnight where we stop our
small groups and every groupwill host an event at which they
invite their friends, that'sbeen extraordinarily fruitful,
(13:25):
so that you've got bothone-to-one and small group and
then event.
I think if you just focus onthe event, it's kind of like an
upside-down pyramid.
You're not putting the weightwhere it needs to be.
If we train a whole church inconfident personal witness and
outreach, then when you put onyour event or when you've got an
(13:48):
ordinary Sunday I say anordinary, it's never ordinary,
but we've got a Sunday meetingPeople have got friends who they
want to bring along and theyknow what to do with them and
what to say with them.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
And what about the raising up for ministry?
Because I mean, I remember Ithink when we were talking at
the GAFCON conference in Kigalilast year, you were talking
about a number of traineescoming through but less choosing
to step up for Church ofEngland ordination.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
So historically we would havesent sort of three to five,
sometimes five to ten peoplethrough to college every year,
and they weren't all kind of outof St Helens.
They might have spent some timewith us, having been nurtured
elsewhere, but they would gofrom St Helens to college.
Now I mean, maybe one might go,but they're just not prepared
(14:38):
to go through into theologicalseminary.
They might go to FIEC, traineeChristian leaders, and they are
going for training, but they areremaining with us in service
and with other churches inservice as they train and then
(14:59):
we're commissioning themformally and publicly at the end
of their training.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And you had one of these services.
The other week we did, we'vehad two.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
We had one in 2023 and one in 2024.
The much more public one wasthe 2024 one, but what I think
that is encouraging about thatis that there is now a pathway
that has been established.
These guys have been on formalselection panels.
(15:29):
It's been done in a recognisedway within our network of
churches.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
So it's the beginning of the setting up of a process
to approve people for ministryand authorise people for
ministry.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
And all seven of them have stepped in.
So the great question I takeI'm, I, my, I take my hat off to
these guys because, um, it's abig thing, you know, this was
four or five years ago to say,okay, well, I'm 22, 23, 24 and
I'm going to commit myself tothis process, but I've no idea
what's quite what's at the endof it, because we haven't quite
(16:08):
worked it out yet.
Well, thank the Lord that atthe end of the process there was
a commissioning service.
People from across the alliancewere there and were prepared to
speak openly in support of it,and every one of these
individuals has gone into paidgospel ministry in a complete
(16:31):
cross-section of ministrypositions.
So very, very small church witha much more sort of struggling
congregation.
Somebody's gone to one likethat.
Somebody's gone somewhere rightoutside of London, up in Derby.
(16:52):
He's doing a great job thereand his senior pastor just
contacted me the other daysaying thank you so much, he's
doing such a great job.
And then a couple of them havecome to our churches, but there
have been jobs for them at theend, which I think is what
people worry about, and the planis for these, or some like them
, to be ordained.
(17:13):
Yeah, they will be ordained in2025, for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Right, because I did read of this service that you
had and some people critical ofit, saying you kind of were all
staying exactly within the linesof Church of England
expectations or something likethat, but when you ordain them
next year, that will be a groupof you saying we have no
(17:39):
confidence in the Church ofEngland ordination process and
so it's now necessary for us toset up our own process.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, that's right.
I mean that has to be the case.
I mean these guys effectivelyhave been publicly recognised by
groups of churches and they areworking across those churches
in public ministry.
Now we call it a commissioning,but you could call it lots of
other things.
I mean, it's effectively what'sgoing on in hands being laid on
(18:10):
Timothy, for example.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
I mean well, but the words will be ordained for word
and sacrament.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
I mean, when it happens next year, they will be
ordained formally.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah, right, but it will be… and that's really part
of the setting up the trajectoryto setting up the informal
province that you're talkingabout Absolutely talking about.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
And all of this is contingent on whether or not the
bishops determined to set up aseparate structure for those who
want to remain within theChurch of England to operate
within.
If they set up a satisfactorystructure and make what we call
provision, then a service likethis won't be necessary.
But my observation is that todate, the bishops have wanted to
(18:56):
hang on to their own powerrather than serve the churches,
and so they're very unwilling tolet go of their power.
And I think it's a great, greatshame, because if they were
prepared to cede, you know theirperceived power and allow…
which is really the power forlicensing, isn't it it?
(19:17):
is.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah, that's right.
I mean I take it for you.
I mean, here am I.
I worry about who will comeafter me, you know, and yet the
bishop over me is a good guy,you know, and you must worry
(19:40):
about succession at St Helens.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Well, it depends how old you think I am, Donny.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Well, I think you're older than me.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Okay, fair enough, yeah of course we're thinking
about that, I think.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
And not just, I mean, you're in a much more secure
position than many otherchurches.
You're absolutely right.
And I mean, where am I?
I've invested time in buildinga building project.
I've invested time in buyinghouses a house for this church.
I'm leaving the place in abetter property position than I
found it, and but why would I dothat if I'm going to give it to
(20:15):
a?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
heretic.
So we are very clear as achurch leadership that our goal
is to secure evangelicalministry in the City of London
and beyond, and we're very, Ithink that that kind of aim is
well chosen in what it doesn'tsay and what it does say.
(20:37):
Our goal above everything elseis to secure evangelical
ministry in the City of London.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So you've left the word Anglican out of that
sentence.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I have.
I mean, I happen to think thatthe English Reformation is a
really good expression of kindof reformed theology and there's
a difference between theEnglish and the Continental and
I happen to prefer the EnglishReformation.
So that's why I like Anglican asa sort of way of doing things,
(21:06):
but for that reason.
But we have left the wordAnglican deliberately and we've
left Church of Englanddeliberately because our goal is
to secure evangelical ministry.
But it would be, I think,foolish in the extreme just to
put your hands on your hips andflounce off immediately when
(21:29):
there is still and some peoplewill say, okay, well, fair
enough, you're living in cloudcuckoo land and maybe.
But I feel we must give it ourbest shot.
And my encouragement always topeople who say well, look, stay
in for as long as you can sothat we have our best shot at
securing provision.
(21:51):
Because if we secure provision,then for churches like ours
that have very strategicallyplaced buildings, they are a
huge, huge gospel bonus, andthat's not true for everybody.
So we've got multiple churchplants now all over London and
further afield and many of themaren't meeting in Church of
(22:12):
England buildings at all and Ican quite easily see them saying
actually no.
No, we don't need any of this.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
we'll go and join one anglican mission, england or or
whatever I see, or something,yeah, whatever one of them, one
of them has right.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
And uh, the bishop said, well, no, I, I insist on
being there for the installationof the successor.
And the successor said, well,I'm not prepared to have you
there.
And so he said so.
So they said, well, okay, fairenough, we won't be Church of
England in that case.
Well, I mean, that's a veryinteresting plant, that church
(22:46):
plant, because when we plantedit I was met by lawyers and the
incumbent of the parish in whichwe planted it, which was in a
separate diocese, and I went tosay we're starting a church in
your parish.
She was there, as was thelawyer, and the bishop warned
everybody, because they owned alot of land there, not to take
(23:07):
us, take the plant on board.
Could they come back in?
So they then came in.
They came into the diocese forfive years or so.
Now succession has come and thediocese has said well, we
insist that the bishop is therefor the installation.
And we said, well, I'm sorry,but you're a heretic, we're not
(23:28):
going to have you there at theinstallation.
And the result is they've leftagain.
They've left the property, no,no, they've kept it because
they're meeting in a school.
Oh, okay, right, I think ifyou've not got that issue, you
may be a little bit more fleetof foot and some people on
conscience will say actually no,I've had enough and I can't go
on.
Well, I don't want to kind ofde-church them or anything like
(23:51):
that.
No, no Good on them.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
That's their decision and they will go and meet
wherever they meet and they'veleft the church and we should
not fall out um over over thosekind of decisions.
But do you think the um?
Uh well, sarah malali and thosekind of people just think, um
well, they're never going toleave, we'll just put up, we'll
just keep making it harder forthem.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
No, I think they think we are prepared to lose 10
percent.
We'll just put up.
We'll just keep making itharder for them.
No, I think they think we areprepared to lose 10%.
Keep going, well.
I think well.
I mean, I know they've saidthat they are prepared to lose
10% at either end.
Right, and therefore, if weleave, I don't think that's a
particular, I mean, it'd be aconcern for them, but I think
(24:41):
they've already, as it were,factored that in.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
But when you see now 43% of the population of the
Church of.
England is represented by theAlliance.
That would be just devastating.
You'd be very, very foolishindeed, and are you seeing any
signs of a walk back from them?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
not yet.
Um, I mean, what is interestingis, you know, there are five of
the 42 diocese who have amembership of 70, uh, 50 of
their membership are 70 or over.
And then there's a further twodioceses where 49% of their
(25:21):
membership is 70 years old orover.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
So everyone younger is with you.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
No, no, no.
There are five dioceses in theChurch of England where you know
over 50% of the membership ofthat entire diocese is over 70.
So you just sort of think, ifyou do wave goodbye to the 43%
of the church, most of whom willbe the younger end, it will be
extreme folly.
(25:47):
But you never know what theHouse of Bishops might do.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So it does look like these ordinations will go ahead
next year early next yearsometime.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yeah, but the plan is for us to have these men
ordained.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
And I think you were telling me that it will
essentially be a moment of wellgroup defiance of the Church of
England Episcopacy or a momentof group.
We've lost confidence in your.
I mean really like that churchwas in that school hall.
(26:27):
We don't want you, we don'ttrust you to the bishop.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
I think that's right.
I mean, I think you knowsomebody once put it to me in
military terms.
I don't know why they did that,but they said you know that the
church leaders are likebattalion commanders and they
have completely lost confidencein the generals.
That may not be a metaphor thatworks for you, but I think I
(26:52):
can understand it.
The guys on the front line whoare leading the churches have
lost confidence in the House ofBishops on so many different
levels.
You know, you can just openyour newspaper this morning and
you can see that the levels atwhich um and the different
levels of which there is noconfidence in the leadership um
coming from the house of bishopsand um, if they're not prepared
(27:15):
to make provision for activeand effective gospel ministry,
then we have to take it into ourown hands.
Now it's a lot easier for us todo that at St Helens Than the
guy who's on his own, than theguy who's on his own.
But I do think that we have todo things which make it then
possible for others, thenpossible for others.
And other people are doing thesort of things which five years
(27:39):
ago, you know, some otherchurches did and was considered
to be completely outrageous.
And now other churches arepicking up, and my encouragement
to every church leader is youmust do something.
You must.
Just writing a letter is notenough.
You've got to do something todistance yourself from a house
(28:01):
of bishops that is heretical.
Now it's not like Sydney.
We've got 42 dioceses, soyou're just one diocese.
So we've got 42 dioceses with42 different bishops and
different settings, so what oneperson does in one diocese might
be different to what anotherperson.
And then you've got churches,some of whom only have their
(28:24):
church wardens with them.
Some of them it's just theincumbent, the senior minister,
and others it'll have the churchwardens and the church council,
but not the congregation.
So what I'm wanting toencourage people to do is to do
the most strong thing youpossibly can do, and for us it
has been okay.
(28:45):
We're going to break partnershipwith the House of Bishops.
We'll stop giving them anymoney at all, except for
safeguarding and the kind ofcentral provisions they make.
We make a little contributionto my housing, but we don't pay
anything else in terms of ourcosts anymore to the centre.
So we stop paying money.
We make a little contributionto my housing, but we don't pay
anything else in terms of ourcosts anymore to the centre.
So we stopped paying money.
We've broken partnership withthe House of Bishops and we
(29:05):
remain under them forsafeguarding, but we are now
training and commissioning ourown gospel workers for public
ministry across ourcongregations and across
congregations of many otherchurches.
Now what?
Speaker 1 (29:18):
about the church planting.
Has that slowed down or is thatstill happening?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Well, I mean, funnily enough, during lockdown we
started a new congregation.
I mean, it was completely aresult of lockdown Because we
couldn't have all the kids um inchurch and you had to meet in
family units.
One of the um buildings wasused for um families with their
(29:46):
children around them, andtowards the end of lockdown
somebody came and said well,this is going so well, let's
keep going.
Why don't we keep going?
So um, it was rather.
It's a rather wonderful thing.
There's now a new familycongregation, but this time last
year.
I mean we've always sought toplant churches.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
I guess in around about 2001,.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I sought to turn St Helens into a church planting
church and that took about ayear to work through as a church
family and since then we'vebeen planting churches as
vigorously as we can.
And this time last year wethought, come on, it's high time
we got kicked off again, and sowe are planning two church
(30:31):
plants in the next two years,one this coming September 25.
Where's that going to be?
Well, we hope it'll be insomewhere in south, in our
southwest London.
Right, yeah, that's veryspecific, I'm not going to tell
you more about that.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
You've got more public negotiations to take
place.
There's a little bit morenegotiation.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
I think it's been very in our church planting work
it's been really important forus to realize that really what
we plant is the seed of God'sword and that's the biblical
language.
But what we do is buildchurches.
I don't mean with bricks andmortar, but the language is
building the church.
And so we've tried to help ourchurch planters see themselves
(31:19):
as church builders and I thinkthat's helped us a huge amount.
When it comes to all thetraining side, they're not just
kind of pioneer, kind of ruggedindividuals who branch I mean
there's an element of that to it, obviously but actually the
senior pastor, the teachers inthe church, are there to build
the church.
And if you build senior pastor,the teachers in the church are
there to build the church.
And if you build it right, thenthere'll be a huge amount of
(31:42):
ministry of the planting of theword going on.
So that's been a big lesson forus, I think, over the last 20
something years.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
But with all this crisis going around, the church
planting is still happening.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
That's the key thing, yeah for sure and the structure
into which they will come.
Who knows?
At this stage, you know we'renot quite sure yet quite what
they will be Right.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
So, whether or not they plant in a dead Church of
England building or into an Amystructure or an Anglican mission
in England.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
structure yeah, that's right.
So I mean we have kind of, uh,at least two models.
So we we have something we callbecause we're a city center
church and there are alwayspeople leaving for you know
stage of life reasons we havewhat we call church trickle,
where we will nominate a numberof churches that we think, and
(32:41):
we're in partnership, wouldreally benefit from you going
into certain A small number, asmall number, and so we will say
here are the four churches.
Now one of them is an FIECchurch.
In the current four that we'vegot at the moment, they're not
all Church of England churches.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
They're Bible churches.
They're.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Bible churches, I mean the whole denominational
thing, I think, is you don'tfind denomination in the Bible.
You find local church andgospel partnership, and so what
we're wanting to do is tricklesome people across and there are
these four churches at themoment that we're working on,
but at the same time take then40, 30, 40, 50, 80 people and
(33:23):
start a whole new church family.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
What happens when you retire?
How does?
What's the process for choosingthe next minister?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
you know, yeah well, every church um has nominators,
like you do here In England.
We have patrons and they have asay, but at the end of the day
it's the congregation that needsto kind of….
Speaker 1 (33:47):
So at that level the bishop's just a secretary.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
No the bishop actually has a say and has a
part in all of that, and that'swhy them making some sort of
provision is absolutelyessential because if you're
going to be say, avoid the falseteacher, you can't have the
false teacher.
Be the person who has thisexactly, and so if they don't
make, the more they fail to makeprovision, the more we will
(34:13):
preserve evangelical ministry inthe city of London becomes
significant.
I mean that becomes significantanyway, but the more the
weighting of that, matt, interms of the weight of that,
wording becomes very significant.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Thank you so much for coming and talking to us.
William Taylor has been myguest.
He is the senior minister of StHelen's Church at Bishop's Gate
in London, and I guess thething we remember is do the work
of an evangelist preach thegospel in season and out of
season.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.