March 11, 2025 • 42 mins
The world isn't broken, it's trying to save you. That's where this one starts. But first, a couple of announcements. One, the launch of a new series on the podcast called Vignettes from the Source. And two, 5x New York Times best-selling author and great friend of the podcast, Paul Hawken, has his extraordinary new book, Carbon: The Book of Life, out now on pre-sale (with a few copies for paid subscribers). He’s also launching and chatting about the book at a few events in California next week.
Leading off the new series then, is what I’ve found to be an unforgettable last part of my conversation with Paul about the book last year, when we were bathed in sunshine in his home garden back in California. Listening back to it though, it could just as well have been recorded today. You’ll see what I mean.
So today features the last half hour or so of our conversation. In the first part, we talk about the new book, some profoundly wise words on the nature of story, and Paul's unflinching belief in people. Then the conversation shifts a gear, when I ask Paul about his experience with MLK Jr in Alabama as a teen, where he says in the book he witnessed a form of spirituality that really impacted him. I had been moving to wind up our conversation, but this last 15 minutes or so is straight from the source.
It all culminates in a five-minute ‘world premiere’ reading of the last passage of the new book. If all you do is listen to that …
Of course, if you’re inspired to listen to more, or to revisit the rest of this conversation, you’ll find it at episode 204. For now, I hope you enjoy this.
Conversation recorded on 27 April 2024. Intro recorded today.
Title slide: Paul Hawken (pic: Olivia Cheng).
See more photos on the website of ep.204 linked above, and for more behind the scenes, become a supporting listener via the links below.
Music:
Synergy, by TURPAC; One Love, by Roy Young; Circle of Life, by Letra (all sourced on Artlist).
The RegenNarration playlist, music chosen by guests.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
AJ (00:03):
G'day Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, your
independent, listener-supportedportal into the regenerative era
.
Today, a couple ofannouncements.
Firstly, as the 250th episodeof the podcast went out last
week, I've been thinking aboutsome of the unforgettable
moments my guests have sharedOf all the conversations, of
(00:24):
all the hours recorded over theeight years so far.
I'm talking about the passagesthat hit on something profound
and often unexpected.
Sometimes it was a moment oftransformation for them, or
uncanny coincidence or someother pivotal part in their
lives.
hey just can't explain.
At times the word magic hasbeen used by my guests in these
(00:48):
instances.
It's funny.
Even a couple of nights ago, atan event here in Music City,
nashville, tennessee, a legendof the African-American music
scene on Jefferson Street,Lucius 'Spoonman' Talley yes,
I'll share more on him and thatstreet later, related one such
story of incredible coincidences, such that he said, without any
(01:12):
sense of evangelism, more justsearching for a way to express
it, god must have been in this.
Anyway, whatever your languagefor it.
I was thinking about all thisweeks before hearing Lucius
those couple of nights ago and Ithought I'd haul some of these
micro-stories out of the podcastcatalogue and bring them back
(01:32):
to the fore as vignettesreleased here and there.
I didn't really want to callthem vignettes of magic, or even
wonder, or even God, because Ididn't want to imply a sense of
abstraction or so-called woo-woo.
These stories were experienced,grounded realities, but just
seemed to come from somewhereelse, from far beyond what we
(01:54):
can control, plan or evenimagine, and they have so very
often led to extraordinaryregenerative experiences and
outcomes.
I've long loved John Lennon'sline life is what happens to you
when you're busy making otherplans.
These moments could be said tocome from life itself, then the
(02:14):
source of it all.
Anyway, that's the word thatfelt right to me.
The source.
P art.
ouble entendre too right, givenwe're hearing from people,
often in their places, abouttheir experiences of this nature
.
And right on theme, just as Ithought I'd call this series
Vignettes from the Source, Iarrived at a community school
near Floyd, virginia, for apodcast coming soon, and the
(02:38):
founder, jenny, my guest on thatpodcast, kindly gifts me her
book after our chat.
It's titled Consider the Source.
What can I say?
Leading off the series then?
A not so short one.
Really, there were so manyaspects of this conversation
(02:58):
that were unforgettable.
Most, though, were towards theback end, as the conversation
built.
I'm talking about my most recentepisode with five times New
York Times bestselling author,paul Hawken, recorded last year
in his home garden back inCalifornia.
Listening back to the part Ihad in mind, though, it could
just as well have been recordedtoday.
(03:19):
You'll see what I mean.
What is happening right now isthat Paul's extraordinary new
book, Carbon, the Book of Life,is out now on pre-sale, and he's
commencing a tour to launch andchat about it, starting in
California next week.
Links in the show notes.
A nd, I'm happy to say, Maddyand friends at its Aussie
(03:41):
publishers Text have againoffered a few copies for paid
subscribers to TheRegenNarration podcast in
Australia and New Zealand.
So if you're a paid subscriberon any platform, including the
new Substack, with a postaladdress in Australia or New
Zealand and you'd like a copy,just send me a text message via
the links in the show notes oron the subscription platform
(04:02):
you've joined.
Be sure to include your nameand postal address.
That's with.
normous thanks for your supportmaking all this possible.
So today features the last 40minutes or so of my extended
conversation with Paul In thefirst half.
ere we talk about the new book,some unforgettable words on the
nature of story and Paul'sunflinching belief in people.
(04:25):
Then the conversation shifts agear when I ask Paul about his
experience with MLK Jr inAlabama as a teen, where he says
in the book he witnessed a formof spirituality that really
impacted him.
I had been moving to wind upour chat, but this last 15
minutes or so is really straightfrom the source, and it all
(04:48):
culminates in a five-minuteworld premiere reading of the
passage that closes the book.
If all you do is listen to that, you'll be glad.
Of course, if you're inspiredto listen to more or to revisit
the rest of this conversation,I'll put a link to what was
episode 204 in the show notestoo.
For now, I hope you enjoy this.
Here's Paul.
Paul (05:10):
I really love what Bayo Akamalafi said in his graduation
speech to the Pacific Institutehere At the very end of the
speech.
You know it's a very unorthodoxspeech, the whole thing is very
unorthodox and completelydifferent.
As somebody who's givencommencement speeches, I was
gobsmacked by the originalityand the poetry of it.
(05:33):
But at the very end he saidwhatever you do, do not leave
here and go, try to save theworld.
He said, consider that theworld might be trying to save
you.
There was, it's trying tochange you.
Don't change it.
Yeah, it's just like that.
(05:53):
So take it in.
You know what happens when youreally take it in.
Just, I mean, grief happens.
Good, you're feeling it Well,there's no grief without love.
So if you feel grief, you'retouching into the very most
important part.
Somebody asked me at a meetingI forget.
(06:17):
They said what's the mostimportant thing to do about,
what's the most importantprinciple of regeneration?
I said, oh, kindness.
Kindness is the number onething.
People get down into details.
You've got to do it this wayand that way and till and no
till.
I mean back up, what are wetalking about here?
AJ (06:37):
And it's actually kindness to self, by the way, and to that
which is not self, if you canfind what is not self, exactly
asterisk oh, you know, my oldmate, frank, was only kept alive
, blessed, by public hospitalsin australia because of the
nature of the way his healthsituation played out chronic
(06:59):
disease and well, and riding hisbike everywhere, he'd say, and
kept alive by those two things.
And, yeah, I remember one dayhe saw a particular sign.
He got to see all differenthospitals, right, and one of
them had something on the wallsaying their mission was
excellence and another one hadtheir mission on the wall was
kindness and he said give mekindness any day.
(07:20):
Reminded me of that.
It also reminds me of somethingI talked about with kate chaney
before I left, that has gone outon the podcast, where even in
this nominal net zero reportthat's been produced by
community, with her in the seatof curtain back home, kindness
was a thread and literally apage of children's art.
(07:42):
It took a child, perhaps.
It was love, all about love,touchstones.
So just to weave the threadaround the book that's coming,
carbon, the Book of Life.
This is where it came from,because you've done these big
compendiums, drawdown andregeneration.
This is more the essence ofthis volume.
I gather.
Paul (08:03):
Yeah, I mean, like you and , I'm sure, all your listeners,
we're looking, we're reading,we're watching, seeing, thinking
, reflecting, wondering,experiencing different emotions
from is this really happening?
(08:24):
Or is this person really sayingwhat they're saying?
Because it's just sodiabolically stupid to just
poetry and beautiful art anddance and music and expression
and beautiful, some reallybeautiful books I want to call
out Karen Bakker again becauseyou're calling out, you know,
rachel Carson and expression andbeautiful, some really
beautiful books.
I want to call out Karen Bakkeragain because you're calling
out Rachel Carson.
AJ (08:43):
Yes.
Paul (08:44):
Yeah, I mean, there's some women here who are just making
you know, like Suzanne, you know, leaping ahead of, let's call
it male science ormale-dominated science.
Monica, you know, galliano, Imean, I just see that I'm not
trying to be a good guy aboutgender just because I'm a white,
(09:06):
male, vertebrate.
It's just obvious, you know,and we're all different, you
know we all take it in, but forme it's the same really, and I
read sort of voraciously and tryto take in the world as it is
presented by other people, andit just takes me back to the
(09:28):
things we've been sharing andtalking about, which is where
does change originate and wheredoes it get it wrong itself
wrong, where does it get itwrong itself wrong?
And what I see and I don't wantto get too genderish, but the
fact is, what I see is a climatemovement that is dominated by a
male way of seeing the world,and the science was very
(09:50):
male-dominated climate science,and so the language has come out
of it and, even with duerespect to what you're just
talking about, it's just so fullof net zero, it's just so full
of jargon.
Yeah, yeah, and jargon is veryuseful If you're a surgeon and
there's two surgeons there andyou have somebody who's going to
(10:14):
die if the surgery isn't right,from a car accident or this or
that, you can speak in jargon.
You're not going to speak ifthe surgery isn't right, you
know, from a car accident orthis or that, you can speak in
jargon.
You're not going to speak infull sentences.
So jargon is very, very useful.
I mean, on the footy, I mean,they're not talking in sentences
, they're not using adverbs, youknow.
I mean it's declarative, it'simperative, you know.
(10:37):
So that's jargon.
But we've used it for climateand we have these really strange
phrases a net zero, net of what?
And I mean what it means isthat there's no more carbon
going up than there is comingdown.
You know it's like good luck onmeasuring that one you can't
measure.
And that's what I was trying tosay.
Carbon is a flow and it'sinextricably bound with all
(11:00):
other aspects of life and that'simmeasurable.
Net zero is immeasurable.
Now, the goal is is admirable.
So I I want to make adistinction the distinction.
Yes, it's a met, as a metaphorsure is a metaphor, yeah, and
but how about clive andneutrality?
You know carbon neutrality.
Excuse me, I should have saidcarbon neutral.
I thought about that one for along time.
(11:21):
I said, oh, I know what'scarbon neutral Mars, yeah yeah,
but it's like how can carbon'snot neutral?
AJ (11:29):
Yeah.
Paul (11:30):
It's everywhere.
There's 120 billion carbonmolecules in every cell of your
body.
Is it going to be carbonneutral?
What does that mean?
You know it's that mean.
So we have used this languageand then fighting, tackling,
combating climate change, allthese sort of male sports
metaphors to talk about thefuture of life on Earth.
(11:50):
And what I'm saying is thatthey guarantee that 99 point and
you fill in the integer there 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6% of the people I
don't know where it is exactlydo nothing every day about the
most serious threat tocivilization and human
well-being that has everoccurred on the planet.
And we have languaged it insuch a way as to guarantee
(12:14):
non-response and ignorance of it.
Ignoring it, I should say notignorance.
And because our language is allwrong, it doesn't connect.
And this is what we're talkingabout.
You know, connection,connection requires listening
and hearing, receivingcompassion, kindness we talked
(12:35):
about already, you know.
And to meet where there'scommonality, as opposed to top
down.
I know you don't, we should,you shouldn't?
I mean, all these things arelogically true.
You shouldn't, you know, butdrive a dune, buggy other things
on, I mean, of course, but it'snot how we're going to reach
(12:58):
each other and we're notreaching each other that way.
And again, I'm not trying tojust butter you up or something
like that, but when I listen toyour podcast, because of the
groundedness of it and thehonesty of it, of the people and
what they've learned and whatfailed and what's succeeding and
how difficult it is, by the way, like it's not easy, but I
(13:22):
wouldn't trade it for anythingelse- yes, exactly.
And that's where we all have togo.
AJ (13:27):
Yes.
Paul (13:28):
Everyone, the whole earth.
AJ (13:30):
And in that sense, why wouldn't you, yeah, yeah, and
you close with a really rousinglike the whole book in that
sense is a.
It's a book of wonder in manyways.
It closes with a genuinelyrousing finale, like a call.
I mean, I guess it's that sortof call that you've just made
and to feel that from you Idon't know it feels really
(13:52):
powerful that after all theseyears and all you've seen and
all that that you've seen, eventhat you still you feel life and
its innate regeneration at workand you're calling us all into
it.
Paul (14:08):
I think I'm recognizing it as opposed to calling in.
I mean, I don't.
I just feel like like my lifeis about curiosities.
Really, I'm not a scientist.
I write, I learn.
I wrote Drawdown because anddid it because it didn't exist.
That's why Not, because, youknow, oh, that's a great idea.
(14:31):
I had the idea for 13 yearsbefore I started.
Is that right?
Well, no, actually more thanthat.
It was about 13, 14 years.
I kept going around likediogenes, you know, like saying
why don't we have a list of thesolutions?
I mean to universities, ngos,government officials and so
forth.
Well, you know.
Third assessment, fourthassessment this is a serious
(14:55):
problem.
What are the solutions?
Like the Union of ConcernedScientists at that time had five
of them, one of them was wasget a power strip for your home
entertainment center.
I'm not kidding.
AJ (15:06):
Yeah, I remember that this is a Union of Concerned
Scientists going.
Paul (15:09):
I don't have a home entertainment center.
Should I get one so I can putthe power strip on you know, use
cold water in your washingmachine.
It's like, and you know we'rescrewed if those are the
solutions.
You know you're, and so that'show Drawdown came out.
But it was more of just like,goodness sakes, you know, we
(15:35):
know a lot, and we had staff atthe Paris COP you know where the
Paris mandate came out of, withChristina Figueres, and they
went around at my suggestion.
I didn't go and just say askingpeople, can you name the top
five solutions to reversingglobal warming?
Yeah, yeah.
And some people would say whatdoes it mean to reverse?
You know, but that was drawdown, that's what it means, and
(15:58):
I felt at that time can we starttalking about net zero?
I don't want to get net zero in2050 when PPM is 550 parts per
million of CO2.
That's climate hell.
Hey, we got there, we'resuccessful.
No, we're not.
Unless our goal is to reverseit, then I don't know.
AJ (16:19):
Are you talking about?
Paul (16:20):
just your lifetime.
AJ (16:21):
Yeah.
Paul (16:22):
Somebody else.
But we ask them, and these arepeople, both copies, divided
into the green and the blue theblue are the official delegates
and the green are all the NGOsand where the action is.
And we ask both and nobodycould name five, Nobody, and
(16:45):
nobody could name them in order.
And that's what we knew when wewere onto something.
Yeah, I mean, this isconference at the parties
calling for the Paris MandateOne and a half degrees at that
time, you know, to limit warmingto 1.5 C and nobody could name
five solutions.
Now, that was then.
That was like nine years ago.
(17:07):
So we've come a long way sincethen.
We have Jorn Rockström, we have, you know, we have all.
Yeah, Kate Raworth, I mean, wehave a lot is going on.
A lot is going on In a veryshort time.
It, Kate Raworth?
I mean we have a lot that'sgoing on, A lot is going on In a
very short time.
It's true, yeah, yeah, but forme it was always about curiosity
.
You know, Like I was reallycurious.
It wasn't like you know youshould do that.
(17:28):
Why aren't you doing it?
Yeah, that's stupid.
No, it was like I want to know,Not like I don't mean selfishly
, but you know.
It's like I wonder what theyare.
I don't know.
We asked people and staff.
(17:49):
I knew quote, quote and I airquotes the top 10 solutions.
And then we did the math youknow we had 60,.
You know, researchers, I waswrong.
So, even though I was veryclose to it, I could with
assuredness say these are thetop solutions.
And now, when I look at ittoday, they aren't, because
they're global solutions andthere's no such thing as a
global solution.
There's no such thing.
(18:12):
So Perth and Botswana andBelgium and Boston are very
different places, and so, again,this is about place.
It doesn't mean that therearen't.
You know, there's an atmospherethat is global?
AJ (18:25):
Of course there is, yes, but the solutions aren't global,
where you're going to hear it tofull circle, where we've been,
where you're going to be able tolisten to it.
Yeah, it's here.
Yeah, yeah.
Paul (18:35):
Yeah, beautiful.
So you asked about, really, thelatest book.
It's just like go back tolistening, watching, reading,
hearing and seeing the evolutionand emergence.
You know this extraordinarymovement and I do mean it.
(18:57):
I've spoken a little bitharshly about top-down sort of
government stuff, but this isthe most brilliant, thriving
moment in human history rightnow.
It's extraordinary and what Imean?
Inventive and extraordinary.
I'm not talking about AI.
I'm talking about people reallydiscovering who they are and
(19:17):
where they live and who theylive with whom they may not have
understood, by the way, andrespect, and coming together and
connecting in ways that endureand mean something and being
learning-based creatures, goingback to being a learner, not a
knower, being a listener, not ateller, being a receiver, not
(19:39):
somebody in command, in charge.
I mean this quality of humanbeing is emerging everywhere in
the world and they understand.
You know, if we're going tostay here, we have to restore
life on earth and we have to gothe other direction.
From extraction we can see theend of the road.
That's very clear.
Just pick up the newspaper anysingle day.
(20:00):
Any movie, any movie, yeah, Imean they're everywhere now.
And that reversing globalwarming, reversing the loss of
the living world in itsextractive condition is like I
mean, people get it, theyunderstand that.
I mean people get it, theyunderstand that.
(20:21):
And so I think we have to exaltthose and learn from them and
point to them, as opposed to putour hopes and prayers into
politicians, governments, fossilfuels, esg banks.
I don't think so.
It doesn't mean we should stopspeaking truth to power.
(20:42):
No, not at all.
Do do, please, absolutely more,but in terms of making
fundamental change, no.
AJ (20:51):
I feel like drawing on this line to sign that off before we
look to wind up.
It was from your, your book and, if I get this pronunciation
right, the arctic inactitude howthey saw the role of the
storyteller in a different way,and it was stories that create a
state of being in which wisdomreveals itself.
(21:12):
Stories that create a state ofbeing in which wisdom reveals
itself.
I've thought a lot about that.
Paul (21:20):
I'm going to continue to, and you're a storyteller.
AJ (21:23):
Well, this is why I'm thinking about it and thinking
about my role, if it's not backon full time in my community, in
that community anyway, I feellike there's a community that's
around this podcast.
Now You're part of that.
So, yeah, in wrestling withwith my or grappling with my
role, and it'll think about that.
(21:43):
But I think there's a lot tothat and I think it's some of
what you've tapped in your bookhere too.
The other thing to make note ofis that you are about to go to
a different place yourself,because you've been working with
the CEOs of some majorcompanies who you're also
finding increasingly receptive.
Paul (22:03):
So, speaking of you know those, I guess, larger
hierarchical structures you'restill finding meaning in
connecting there and assistingthere well, I think there's a
tendency I won't just say forthe left, but for those who look
at corporate hegemonycompletely interlinked with the
(22:25):
financial system, with banking,with the stock market, with
concentrations of wealth etc.
And all the assaults reallythat emerge from that that I
think it's important tounderstand that we're just
people, all of us, that's it.
Yeah, it's not like thesepeople in positions of power and
(22:48):
influence who may be benefitingvery much from their role,
which is visibly destructive tosomebody who's being just
objective.
I think that they're like usand they have children, and what
(23:09):
I see is one by one because Idon't see much, you know but
what I encounter is that thepenny drops it really does.
How could it not?
I mean, they're charged withbeing, if they're a CEO of an
(23:31):
organization.
That you know, interacts withthe world in multiple ways, and
so they need to know what'sgoing on in the world.
And so they need to know what'sgoing on in the world.
And it's not about reading tealeaves, it's about reading the
morning paper and listening.
And so what I'm observing andthis is not true in banking,
(23:54):
it's not true in fossil fuels,it's not true, actually, even in
climate tech.
I feel some people in climatetech are just as driven and
profit-motivated as fossil fuelcompanies, but what I see is
people finding themselves havingchanged because it was their
daughter or their who knows whatinfluence precipitated their
(24:20):
realization that oh my gosh, ohmy gosh, we can't keep going
where we're going, and they findthemselves as the head of a
large company, and they have achoice To drop out, of course,
and to go pursue something elseand many do, by the way.
AJ (24:37):
Yes, you've seen that.
Paul (24:38):
Or to stay yes, because they know if they leave, it's
not going to go pursue somethingelse and many do, by the way.
Yes, you've seen that or tostay?
Yes, because they know if theyleave, it's just, it's not going
to go away, it's going to stillbe there, and so if they stay,
then what can they do totransform?
And what I see is, in with theCEOs I'm working with, which the
(25:00):
companies or household names?
They don't talk about it, theydon't publicize it, they don't
brag on it.
They know just do it and do itand do it, as opposed to hey,
look at us, look at what we'redoing.
You know we're green and we'rethis and we're that.
AJ (25:17):
That's interesting when the greenwashing phenomenon is in
some ways spiking.
But there's another way.
Paul (25:23):
Well, it spikes and, yes, it is, but the ones I work with
do not do that, absolutely not.
I mean, they know howridiculous that is and how
pointless it is, and I feel likethere's some really, really,
really good people out there.
Nothing is what it appears tobe in the sense of how we get
(25:48):
information.
It's just not.
AJ (25:50):
It's not.
It's why I do what I do.
Yeah, and I guess why you dowhat you do.
Paul (25:55):
Yeah, I mean, you can have local politicians who are
involved with who knows what toyou know to get the road in
front of your beach, you know.
And you just say, well, youknow.
But it doesn't mean that thatis ubiquitous, no, that's the
thing, that state of confusion,or even corruption, you know
Exactly.
AJ (26:16):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, all right, I feel like winding up
drawing a thread back to yourexperience as a teen in Alabama,
in a way, where you witnessed aform of spirituality, if you
will, and was so taken by it,and it was so distinct from your
(26:36):
background and we share some ofthis.
Maybe we'll talk about thisanother day altar boy histories
that could be fun or not.
I wonder how you think aboutyour spirituality today oh gosh,
(26:56):
the easy question, yeah well,we warmed up um.
Paul (27:04):
Actually don't think about spirituality Really, yeah, I
mean because it's a word, sure,spirituality, and it's like it
almost feels like a thing youknow that you do or you don't do
, or you're involved with it,with it and all I guess too, but
(27:35):
I think more of, does thedifferent aspects of my presence
in the world connect to allother aspects properly?
In other words, am I living anethical life?
Am I kind to others, do Ilisten, am I respectful to self
and do I honor those who've comebefore the wisdom?
AJ (27:55):
keepers.
Paul (27:56):
Do I stay open to things I might have resisted or still do
resist?
That's kind of how I see it, asopposed to you know, I practice
X and I do this every day, orwhatever I go in this place, I
bend there and so you do havepractices too, though.
AJ (28:18):
Yeah.
Paul (28:19):
Yeah.
AJ (28:19):
Is that where you just remind yourself of these?
Paul (28:23):
things.
Well, I think any practice isreally about recognizing the
mind as being.
They call it a monkey mind, forgood reason.
They say 30,000 thoughts a dayand there's nothing you can do
about that except, you know, getdrunk, I mean.
And so again, I mean carbon.
(28:47):
The Book of Life is about flow.
It's about carbon is a flow,you know, but those are a flow
too.
Those thoughts are a flow.
And to recognize them as that,as opposed to trying to control
them or identify or, you know,sort them out, you know, and to
(29:09):
see suffering my own, by the wayand or success, or praise, or
criticism, or, and to take inall the vagaries of what it
(29:29):
means to be a human being andnot get attached, to see it as
the flow actually, and that'snot who you are, it's not who
you are and that's a difficultthing to do, and there's so many
different practices andteachings and exemplars, you
(29:52):
know, who really help people seethat.
But then, you know, we talkabout James Nestor.
Even he does and just came intoit from a completely different
direction.
AJ (30:03):
Yeah, as I did with this yeah.
Paul (30:06):
Yeah, exactly, I feel like having met some of the more
quote-unquote famous teachers.
My feeling is there's teacherseverywhere and we don't
recognize them.
Miguelito picks up my garbage16 years.
Miguelito Miguel is a teacherto me.
(30:29):
He is such an amazing being, socheerful, so happy, so kind, so
respectful, so joyous, and wehave such a good time together
and so forth.
So I feel like, as opposed tosomebody who's got lots of
(30:49):
followers and acolytes and thisand a temple or something and
flies around in privates youknow like I'm not saying they're
not teachers too, I'm justsaying that they're everywhere,
they're everywhere, they'reeverywhere and to try to be the
person who can see it andrecognize it and honor it and
(31:12):
enjoy it.
By the way, beautiful yeah.
AJ (31:16):
Do you think about mortality ?
Paul (31:18):
All the time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
I mean I think about it too,because sometimes I say it and
people say don't say that, don'tsay that.
But I say, you know, the newarrivals are asking the ones who
are leaving so I'm leaving soon.
You just got here and they'resaying what in the you know,
(31:40):
were you thinking?
You know you can fill in theblank there.
I just got here and this is amess, you know, and you guys are
so eff up and confused and I'mjust curious to know what were
you thinking all this time?
And I'm saying well, it's afair question, it's a fair
question.
(32:05):
And as somebody who's leavingsoon you know, and my wife and
everything.
Don't say that, don't say thatI said look, that's just a fact.
Whatever soon is, I mean youcan stay here and still be.
You can leave, just becauseyour mind is gone the brain, or
you've stopped, yeah, yeah.
But I see it from thatperspective.
So it's more like mortality inthe sense of, oh, I'll die.
(32:26):
No, it's mortality in the senseof, oh, you know, I'll die.
No, it's mortality in the senseof it gives you a completely
different perspective.
And if you add the number ofyears you might possibly live,
given where you are now and youknow I'm so, so, so grateful,
you know I'm in perfect healthand I don't know why completely,
(32:51):
but I mean I'm certainlyattended to it.
But if you subtract how long Icould live from now to that
number, is that I know a 10 yearold, 17 year old, 23 year old,
I don't know and what they seeand what they're experiencing
your son, you know, it's 10years old how they see the world
and to look at it from thatpoint of view and what should I?
(33:16):
Maybe not should is not theright word, but what do I want
to say?
Be do, offer to them, becausewe're all the same and we come
and go.
And there's a beautiful thing inMary Oliver, just an incredible
(33:36):
poet, and she says I'm notquoting exactly at all, I'm
paraphrasing I see the worldtoday and I know I'm going to
die, as everybody is, and to seeit with that sense of
(33:57):
preciousness and beauty and justlike and there's a Buddhist, I
don't know what to call it, theteaching, whatever it is but
that being alive is so, sospecial, so extraordinary, so
rare to be in a human body andto enjoy what that means to live
(34:20):
here on earth.
It's as rare as a sea anemonewalking out of the ocean going
up a tree.
Sea anemone walking out of theocean going up a tree, finding a
little hole in the tree andsetting up shop.
That's about how rare it is tobe a human being and if you look
at that, at our existence asbeing, this is, you know,
(34:44):
incarnation, reincarnation.
I mean, it is so special, youknow, to be alive.
So that's what mortality isabout for me.
AJ (34:58):
I said to someone on leaving Australia that I'd been
privileged enough to read adraft of the upcoming book and
that it was incredible.
You know you've done it again.
And she said how does he do it?
And I said I know it's part ofhis genius and it's just to say
you, certainly in terms of whatyou're passing on to the next
(35:19):
generations, you are amanifestation of that wonder.
It's really something.
Paul (35:24):
It's interesting because my way of looking at it is a
little different.
You know, my way of looking atit is like is this good enough?
Of course, no, no, it's just.
I mean I'm really, I'm bad thatway.
I mean I'm not a good, I'm notso good to myself in that way,
every step of the book andreading it and changing this and
(35:44):
that I'm going oh my God, thisbook is going to fail.
And who's going to read it?
My friends will Maybe.
I'll just say they read it.
Chapter 2 is like thanks, paul,thanks for sharing.
But you know what would be funright now, Because it doesn't
come out until February 25.
(36:05):
It would be fun to just readthe last paragraph, if you want.
Do you want to?
Yeah, yeah, if you'll let me.
AJ (36:13):
Totally Okay.
All right, take your time.
Paul (36:15):
Okay, ready, yeah, okay.
The cascade of troublinginformation about the future is
staggering.
In disparity, great damage hasbeen done to the whole of the
living world.
There is, and will be suffering.
Chief Oran Lanz of the OnondagaNation described a prophecy,
foretold a time when the earthbecame biologically degenerated
(36:40):
and the purpose of humanity waslost.
There would be two signs.
One the wind would howl andblow as never before and the
envelope of the earth would beripped and torn apart, caused by
the activity of humankind.
The second sign would be thechildren.
Throughout the world, millionsof children would be homeless,
(37:03):
hungry, exploited and ignored.
This is no longer a prophecy.
This is heartbreak.
Most of us turn down the dial tofunction.
Quote consciousness, the greatpoem of matter seems so unlikely
, so impossible.
And yet here we are with ourloneliness and our giant dreams.
(37:27):
With our loneliness and ourgiant dreams, writes Diane
Ackerman.
People sense somethingmomentous is happening.
Barry Lopez wrote we feelourselves on the verge of
something vague butextraordinary.
Something big is in the windand we feel it.
We know that if we mean to makethis a true home, we have a
monumental adjustment to make.
(37:48):
We must turn to each other andsense that this is possible.
If you are afraid of what mighthappen in the future, find the
person you respect who does notact out of fear.
If you feel overwhelmed, readthe biographies of Sojourner
Truth or Cesar Chavez.
If you think being kind,respectful and polite is
(38:12):
ineffective, listen to JaneGoodall or Robin Wall Kimmerer.
If you feel ineffective, mentora child.
Help heal a wounded animal.
If you are weary of chasinghope, read original instructions
written and edited by MelissaNelson, a member of the Turtle
Band mountain band of theChippewa, to stop the mind from
(38:36):
caving in on itself.
Go outside.
Replace digitized awarenesswith direct experience.
Mend and revive a verge, somesolid land, a habitat, your
backyard, a relationship.
Reintroduce native plants thatprovide food and sanctuary for
pollinators and birds.
Learn their names and stories,as Wendell Berry counseled.
(38:59):
Be joyous though you know allthe facts.
Although we face what appears tobe an insurmountable endgame
brought about by ignorance,aggression and greed, we also
live in the most brilliantperiod in human history.
Breakthroughs arise frombreakdowns.
Renewal results fromdisturbance.
Regenerating the world is thejourney to possibility Vistas
(39:24):
open.
The extraordinary diversity ofvoices, social organisms and
entities emerging in the worldare rehearsing the future.
As I wrote this sentence above,a swallowtail butterfly flitted
about the window and came inits wings, gently fanning the
air above my fingers andkeyboard and keyboard Change and
(39:47):
wonder.
Doubt and fear walk hand in hand.
This is the nameless era.
It was predicted, but thecommon fate of prophecy is to be
ignored.
The juggernaut institutionsthat lay waste to sea, land and
people cannot endure.
Top-down solutions forregenerating life on Earth will
(40:08):
fail as well, because naturedoes not work that way.
A beginning is near a thresholdand so too is an end.
Without fail, meaningful changebegins with one person, one idea
, one aspiration, an audaciousdream.
Singularity is the birthrightof the planet and every cell it
(40:30):
is the seed of community.
Plant it.
Doom and gloom are cobwebs.
Brush them aside.
We seek rapprochement withMother Earth, the vast and
mysterious primordialintelligence that steadily gives
birth to all that exists, thatsustains all that is.
Beliefs do not change ouractions.
(40:52):
Actions change our beliefs.
Complex realities begin assimple acts.
Enchantment, humility, respect,imagination and constant
gratitude create our openings tothe aperture of the living
world.
Monica Galeano suggests we stopplaying God and instead play
midwife.
(41:12):
We can't save the planet.
It will save itself.
The planet is innatelyregenerative and we are invited
to join.
The invitation is to create aworld that's worth saving.
Living species are rapidlydwindling in number.
We eat, drink and breathebecause of this mantle of life.
(41:33):
Do we keep it or lose it?
You can't be both cautious andcourageous, so choose Focus on
what is in front of you.
Give yourself permission tofail, leave room for foibles and
giggles.
Find a restorative movement youcan sing and dance to lest
creation plays to an empty house.
Where you are is where you aremost effective.
(41:55):
The power to act does not layelsewhere.
Fundamental human rights andneeds must be met.
Everyone on earth comes first,there's no second.
Revive, honor and nourish thewild, bountiful lives that
forever astonish us with theirsplendor and grace.
Our intention and our rewardare the same To experience and
(42:19):
express our irrevocableconnection to all beings.
It's the only way forward.
So you can take whatever youwant.
AJ (42:31):
I'll be taking it all, anyway.
Wow, I was just listening tothe garden singing as he spoke
and I thought, yep, the gardensinging there too.
What a great privilege to share.
Paul (42:42):
Oh yeah, it was lovely to be with you.
AJ (42:46):
That was Paul Hawken, bestselling author and dear
friend and supporter of thepodcast from almost the very
beginning.
For more on Paul, his broadarray of highly influential
bestselling books and other workand how you can take next steps
on the Regeneration website.
That's his website.
Actually spelled Regenerationsee the links in the show notes.
(43:09):
There are a couple of photos onthe Regen.
His website actually spelledRegeneration See the links in
the show notes.
There are a couple of photos onthe Regeneration website.
That's my website, theRegeneration and more for
subscribers on Patreon.
And it's.
Thanks again to you, generoussupporting listeners for making
this episode possible.
If you've been thinking aboutbecoming a member or other kind
of supporter, please considerjoining us.
(43:30):
Just head to the website or theshow notes and follow the
prompts.
Thank you, and thanks also forsharing the podcast as usual and
continuing to rate it whereveryou can.
The music you're hearing isRegeneration by Amelia Barden
and at the top it was GreenShoots by the Nomadics.
My name's Anthony James.
(43:51):
Thanks for listening, thank you.
G'day Anthony James here for The RegenNarration, your
independent, listener-supportedportal into the regenerative era
.
Today, a couple ofannouncements.
Firstly, as the 250th episodeof the podcast went out last
week, I've been thinking aboutsome of the unforgettable
moments my guests have sharedOf all the conversations, of
(00:24):
all the hours recorded over theeight years so far.
I'm talking about the passagesthat hit on something profound
and often unexpected.
Sometimes it was a moment oftransformation for them, or
uncanny coincidence or someother pivotal part in their
lives.
hey just can't explain.
At times the word magic hasbeen used by my guests in these
(00:48):
instances.
It's funny.
Even a couple of nights ago, atan event here in Music City,
nashville, tennessee, a legendof the African-American music
scene on Jefferson Street,Lucius 'Spoonman' Talley yes,
I'll share more on him and thatstreet later, related one such
story of incredible coincidences, such that he said, without any
(01:12):
sense of evangelism, more justsearching for a way to express
it, god must have been in this.
Anyway, whatever your languagefor it.
I was thinking about all thisweeks before hearing Lucius
those couple of nights ago and Ithought I'd haul some of these
micro-stories out of the podcastcatalogue and bring them back
(01:32):
to the fore as vignettesreleased here and there.
I didn't really want to callthem vignettes of magic, or even
wonder, or even God, because Ididn't want to imply a sense of
abstraction or so-called woo-woo.
These stories were experienced,grounded realities, but just
seemed to come from somewhereelse, from far beyond what we
(01:54):
can control, plan or evenimagine, and they have so very
often led to extraordinaryregenerative experiences and
outcomes.
I've long loved John Lennon'sline life is what happens to you
when you're busy making otherplans.
These moments could be said tocome from life itself, then the
(02:14):
source of it all.
Anyway, that's the word thatfelt right to me.
The source.
P art.
ouble entendre too right, givenwe're hearing from people,
often in their places, abouttheir experiences of this nature
.
And right on theme, just as Ithought I'd call this series
Vignettes from the Source, Iarrived at a community school
near Floyd, virginia, for apodcast coming soon, and the
(02:38):
founder, jenny, my guest on thatpodcast, kindly gifts me her
book after our chat.
It's titled Consider the Source.
What can I say?
Leading off the series then?
A not so short one.
Really, there were so manyaspects of this conversation
(02:58):
that were unforgettable.
Most, though, were towards theback end, as the conversation
built.
I'm talking about my most recentepisode with five times New
York Times bestselling author,paul Hawken, recorded last year
in his home garden back inCalifornia.
Listening back to the part Ihad in mind, though, it could
just as well have been recordedtoday.
(03:19):
You'll see what I mean.
What is happening right now isthat Paul's extraordinary new
book, Carbon, the Book of Life,is out now on pre-sale, and he's
commencing a tour to launch andchat about it, starting in
California next week.
Links in the show notes.
A nd, I'm happy to say, Maddyand friends at its Aussie
(03:41):
publishers Text have againoffered a few copies for paid
subscribers to TheRegenNarration podcast in
Australia and New Zealand.
So if you're a paid subscriberon any platform, including the
new Substack, with a postaladdress in Australia or New
Zealand and you'd like a copy,just send me a text message via
the links in the show notes oron the subscription platform
(04:02):
you've joined.
Be sure to include your nameand postal address.
That's with.
normous thanks for your supportmaking all this possible.
So today features the last 40minutes or so of my extended
conversation with Paul In thefirst half.
ere we talk about the new book,some unforgettable words on the
nature of story and Paul'sunflinching belief in people.
(04:25):
Then the conversation shifts agear when I ask Paul about his
experience with MLK Jr inAlabama as a teen, where he says
in the book he witnessed a formof spirituality that really
impacted him.
I had been moving to wind upour chat, but this last 15
minutes or so is really straightfrom the source, and it all
(04:48):
culminates in a five-minuteworld premiere reading of the
passage that closes the book.
If all you do is listen to that, you'll be glad.
Of course, if you're inspiredto listen to more or to revisit
the rest of this conversation,I'll put a link to what was
episode 204 in the show notestoo.
For now, I hope you enjoy this.
Here's Paul.
Paul (05:10):
I really love what Bayo Akamalafi said in his graduation
speech to the Pacific Institutehere At the very end of the
speech.
You know it's a very unorthodoxspeech, the whole thing is very
unorthodox and completelydifferent.
As somebody who's givencommencement speeches, I was
gobsmacked by the originalityand the poetry of it.
(05:33):
But at the very end he saidwhatever you do, do not leave
here and go, try to save theworld.
He said, consider that theworld might be trying to save
you.
There was, it's trying tochange you.
Don't change it.
Yeah, it's just like that.
(05:53):
So take it in.
You know what happens when youreally take it in.
Just, I mean, grief happens.
Good, you're feeling it Well,there's no grief without love.
So if you feel grief, you'retouching into the very most
important part.
Somebody asked me at a meetingI forget.
(06:17):
They said what's the mostimportant thing to do about,
what's the most importantprinciple of regeneration?
I said, oh, kindness.
Kindness is the number onething.
People get down into details.
You've got to do it this wayand that way and till and no
till.
I mean back up, what are wetalking about here?
AJ (06:37):
And it's actually kindness to self, by the way, and to that
which is not self, if you canfind what is not self, exactly
asterisk oh, you know, my oldmate, frank, was only kept alive
, blessed, by public hospitalsin australia because of the
nature of the way his healthsituation played out chronic
(06:59):
disease and well, and riding hisbike everywhere, he'd say, and
kept alive by those two things.
And, yeah, I remember one dayhe saw a particular sign.
He got to see all differenthospitals, right, and one of
them had something on the wallsaying their mission was
excellence and another one hadtheir mission on the wall was
kindness and he said give mekindness any day.
(07:20):
Reminded me of that.
It also reminds me of somethingI talked about with kate chaney
before I left, that has gone outon the podcast, where even in
this nominal net zero reportthat's been produced by
community, with her in the seatof curtain back home, kindness
was a thread and literally apage of children's art.
(07:42):
It took a child, perhaps.
It was love, all about love,touchstones.
So just to weave the threadaround the book that's coming,
carbon, the Book of Life.
This is where it came from,because you've done these big
compendiums, drawdown andregeneration.
This is more the essence ofthis volume.
I gather.
Paul (08:03):
Yeah, I mean, like you and , I'm sure, all your listeners,
we're looking, we're reading,we're watching, seeing, thinking
, reflecting, wondering,experiencing different emotions
from is this really happening?
(08:24):
Or is this person really sayingwhat they're saying?
Because it's just sodiabolically stupid to just
poetry and beautiful art anddance and music and expression
and beautiful, some reallybeautiful books I want to call
out Karen Bakker again becauseyou're calling out, you know,
rachel Carson and expression andbeautiful, some really
beautiful books.
I want to call out Karen Bakkeragain because you're calling
out Rachel Carson.
AJ (08:43):
Yes.
Paul (08:44):
Yeah, I mean, there's some women here who are just making
you know, like Suzanne, you know, leaping ahead of, let's call
it male science ormale-dominated science.
Monica, you know, galliano, Imean, I just see that I'm not
trying to be a good guy aboutgender just because I'm a white,
(09:06):
male, vertebrate.
It's just obvious, you know,and we're all different, you
know we all take it in, but forme it's the same really, and I
read sort of voraciously and tryto take in the world as it is
presented by other people, andit just takes me back to the
(09:28):
things we've been sharing andtalking about, which is where
does change originate and wheredoes it get it wrong itself
wrong, where does it get itwrong itself wrong?
And what I see and I don't wantto get too genderish, but the
fact is, what I see is a climatemovement that is dominated by a
male way of seeing the world,and the science was very
(09:50):
male-dominated climate science,and so the language has come out
of it and, even with duerespect to what you're just
talking about, it's just so fullof net zero, it's just so full
of jargon.
Yeah, yeah, and jargon is veryuseful If you're a surgeon and
there's two surgeons there andyou have somebody who's going to
(10:14):
die if the surgery isn't right,from a car accident or this or
that, you can speak in jargon.
You're not going to speak ifthe surgery isn't right, you
know, from a car accident orthis or that, you can speak in
jargon.
You're not going to speak infull sentences.
So jargon is very, very useful.
I mean, on the footy, I mean,they're not talking in sentences
, they're not using adverbs, youknow.
I mean it's declarative, it'simperative, you know.
(10:37):
So that's jargon.
But we've used it for climateand we have these really strange
phrases a net zero, net of what?
And I mean what it means isthat there's no more carbon
going up than there is comingdown.
You know it's like good luck onmeasuring that one you can't
measure.
And that's what I was trying tosay.
Carbon is a flow and it'sinextricably bound with all
(11:00):
other aspects of life and that'simmeasurable.
Net zero is immeasurable.
Now, the goal is is admirable.
So I I want to make adistinction the distinction.
Yes, it's a met, as a metaphorsure is a metaphor, yeah, and
but how about clive andneutrality?
You know carbon neutrality.
Excuse me, I should have saidcarbon neutral.
I thought about that one for along time.
(11:21):
I said, oh, I know what'scarbon neutral Mars, yeah yeah,
but it's like how can carbon'snot neutral?
AJ (11:29):
Yeah.
Paul (11:30):
It's everywhere.
There's 120 billion carbonmolecules in every cell of your
body.
Is it going to be carbonneutral?
What does that mean?
You know it's that mean.
So we have used this languageand then fighting, tackling,
combating climate change, allthese sort of male sports
metaphors to talk about thefuture of life on Earth.
(11:50):
And what I'm saying is thatthey guarantee that 99 point and
you fill in the integer there 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6% of the people I
don't know where it is exactlydo nothing every day about the
most serious threat tocivilization and human
well-being that has everoccurred on the planet.
And we have languaged it insuch a way as to guarantee
(12:14):
non-response and ignorance of it.
Ignoring it, I should say notignorance.
And because our language is allwrong, it doesn't connect.
And this is what we're talkingabout.
You know, connection,connection requires listening
and hearing, receivingcompassion, kindness we talked
(12:35):
about already, you know.
And to meet where there'scommonality, as opposed to top
down.
I know you don't, we should,you shouldn't?
I mean, all these things arelogically true.
You shouldn't, you know, butdrive a dune, buggy other things
on, I mean, of course, but it'snot how we're going to reach
(12:58):
each other and we're notreaching each other that way.
And again, I'm not trying tojust butter you up or something
like that, but when I listen toyour podcast, because of the
groundedness of it and thehonesty of it, of the people and
what they've learned and whatfailed and what's succeeding and
how difficult it is, by the way, like it's not easy, but I
(13:22):
wouldn't trade it for anythingelse- yes, exactly.
And that's where we all have togo.
AJ (13:27):
Yes.
Paul (13:28):
Everyone, the whole earth.
AJ (13:30):
And in that sense, why wouldn't you, yeah, yeah, and
you close with a really rousinglike the whole book in that
sense is a.
It's a book of wonder in manyways.
It closes with a genuinelyrousing finale, like a call.
I mean, I guess it's that sortof call that you've just made
and to feel that from you Idon't know it feels really
(13:52):
powerful that after all theseyears and all you've seen and
all that that you've seen, eventhat you still you feel life and
its innate regeneration at workand you're calling us all into
it.
Paul (14:08):
I think I'm recognizing it as opposed to calling in.
I mean, I don't.
I just feel like like my lifeis about curiosities.
Really, I'm not a scientist.
I write, I learn.
I wrote Drawdown because anddid it because it didn't exist.
That's why Not, because, youknow, oh, that's a great idea.
(14:31):
I had the idea for 13 yearsbefore I started.
Is that right?
Well, no, actually more thanthat.
It was about 13, 14 years.
I kept going around likediogenes, you know, like saying
why don't we have a list of thesolutions?
I mean to universities, ngos,government officials and so
forth.
Well, you know.
Third assessment, fourthassessment this is a serious
(14:55):
problem.
What are the solutions?
Like the Union of ConcernedScientists at that time had five
of them, one of them was wasget a power strip for your home
entertainment center.
I'm not kidding.
AJ (15:06):
Yeah, I remember that this is a Union of Concerned
Scientists going.
Paul (15:09):
I don't have a home entertainment center.
Should I get one so I can putthe power strip on you know, use
cold water in your washingmachine.
It's like, and you know we'rescrewed if those are the
solutions.
You know you're, and so that'show Drawdown came out.
But it was more of just like,goodness sakes, you know, we
(15:35):
know a lot, and we had staff atthe Paris COP you know where the
Paris mandate came out of, withChristina Figueres, and they
went around at my suggestion.
I didn't go and just say askingpeople, can you name the top
five solutions to reversingglobal warming?
Yeah, yeah.
And some people would say whatdoes it mean to reverse?
You know, but that was drawdown, that's what it means, and
(15:58):
I felt at that time can we starttalking about net zero?
I don't want to get net zero in2050 when PPM is 550 parts per
million of CO2.
That's climate hell.
Hey, we got there, we'resuccessful.
No, we're not.
Unless our goal is to reverseit, then I don't know.
AJ (16:19):
Are you talking about?
Paul (16:20):
just your lifetime.
AJ (16:21):
Yeah.
Paul (16:22):
Somebody else.
But we ask them, and these arepeople, both copies, divided
into the green and the blue theblue are the official delegates
and the green are all the NGOsand where the action is.
And we ask both and nobodycould name five, Nobody, and
(16:45):
nobody could name them in order.
And that's what we knew when wewere onto something.
Yeah, I mean, this isconference at the parties
calling for the Paris MandateOne and a half degrees at that
time, you know, to limit warmingto 1.5 C and nobody could name
five solutions.
Now, that was then.
That was like nine years ago.
(17:07):
So we've come a long way sincethen.
We have Jorn Rockström, we have, you know, we have all.
Yeah, Kate Raworth, I mean, wehave a lot is going on.
A lot is going on In a veryshort time.
It, Kate Raworth?
I mean we have a lot that'sgoing on, A lot is going on In a
very short time.
It's true, yeah, yeah, but forme it was always about curiosity
.
You know, Like I was reallycurious.
It wasn't like you know youshould do that.
(17:28):
Why aren't you doing it?
Yeah, that's stupid.
No, it was like I want to know,Not like I don't mean selfishly
, but you know.
It's like I wonder what theyare.
I don't know.
We asked people and staff.
(17:49):
I knew quote, quote and I airquotes the top 10 solutions.
And then we did the math youknow we had 60,.
You know, researchers, I waswrong.
So, even though I was veryclose to it, I could with
assuredness say these are thetop solutions.
And now, when I look at ittoday, they aren't, because
they're global solutions andthere's no such thing as a
global solution.
There's no such thing.
(18:12):
So Perth and Botswana andBelgium and Boston are very
different places, and so, again,this is about place.
It doesn't mean that therearen't.
You know, there's an atmospherethat is global?
AJ (18:25):
Of course there is, yes, but the solutions aren't global,
where you're going to hear it tofull circle, where we've been,
where you're going to be able tolisten to it.
Yeah, it's here.
Yeah, yeah.
Paul (18:35):
Yeah, beautiful.
So you asked about, really, thelatest book.
It's just like go back tolistening, watching, reading,
hearing and seeing the evolutionand emergence.
You know this extraordinarymovement and I do mean it.
(18:57):
I've spoken a little bitharshly about top-down sort of
government stuff, but this isthe most brilliant, thriving
moment in human history rightnow.
It's extraordinary and what Imean?
Inventive and extraordinary.
I'm not talking about AI.
I'm talking about people reallydiscovering who they are and
(19:17):
where they live and who theylive with whom they may not have
understood, by the way, andrespect, and coming together and
connecting in ways that endureand mean something and being
learning-based creatures, goingback to being a learner, not a
knower, being a listener, not ateller, being a receiver, not
(19:39):
somebody in command, in charge.
I mean this quality of humanbeing is emerging everywhere in
the world and they understand.
You know, if we're going tostay here, we have to restore
life on earth and we have to gothe other direction.
From extraction we can see theend of the road.
That's very clear.
Just pick up the newspaper anysingle day.
(20:00):
Any movie, any movie, yeah, Imean they're everywhere now.
And that reversing globalwarming, reversing the loss of
the living world in itsextractive condition is like I
mean, people get it, theyunderstand that.
I mean people get it, theyunderstand that.
(20:21):
And so I think we have to exaltthose and learn from them and
point to them, as opposed to putour hopes and prayers into
politicians, governments, fossilfuels, esg banks.
I don't think so.
It doesn't mean we should stopspeaking truth to power.
(20:42):
No, not at all.
Do do, please, absolutely more,but in terms of making
fundamental change, no.
AJ (20:51):
I feel like drawing on this line to sign that off before we
look to wind up.
It was from your, your book and, if I get this pronunciation
right, the arctic inactitude howthey saw the role of the
storyteller in a different way,and it was stories that create a
state of being in which wisdomreveals itself.
(21:12):
Stories that create a state ofbeing in which wisdom reveals
itself.
I've thought a lot about that.
Paul (21:20):
I'm going to continue to, and you're a storyteller.
AJ (21:23):
Well, this is why I'm thinking about it and thinking
about my role, if it's not backon full time in my community, in
that community anyway, I feellike there's a community that's
around this podcast.
Now You're part of that.
So, yeah, in wrestling withwith my or grappling with my
role, and it'll think about that.
(21:43):
But I think there's a lot tothat and I think it's some of
what you've tapped in your bookhere too.
The other thing to make note ofis that you are about to go to
a different place yourself,because you've been working with
the CEOs of some majorcompanies who you're also
finding increasingly receptive.
Paul (22:03):
So, speaking of you know those, I guess, larger
hierarchical structures you'restill finding meaning in
connecting there and assistingthere well, I think there's a
tendency I won't just say forthe left, but for those who look
at corporate hegemonycompletely interlinked with the
(22:25):
financial system, with banking,with the stock market, with
concentrations of wealth etc.
And all the assaults reallythat emerge from that that I
think it's important tounderstand that we're just
people, all of us, that's it.
Yeah, it's not like thesepeople in positions of power and
(22:48):
influence who may be benefitingvery much from their role,
which is visibly destructive tosomebody who's being just
objective.
I think that they're like usand they have children, and what
(23:09):
I see is one by one because Idon't see much, you know but
what I encounter is that thepenny drops it really does.
How could it not?
I mean, they're charged withbeing, if they're a CEO of an
(23:31):
organization.
That you know, interacts withthe world in multiple ways, and
so they need to know what'sgoing on in the world.
And so they need to know what'sgoing on in the world.
And it's not about reading tealeaves, it's about reading the
morning paper and listening.
And so what I'm observing andthis is not true in banking,
(23:54):
it's not true in fossil fuels,it's not true, actually, even in
climate tech.
I feel some people in climatetech are just as driven and
profit-motivated as fossil fuelcompanies, but what I see is
people finding themselves havingchanged because it was their
daughter or their who knows whatinfluence precipitated their
(24:20):
realization that oh my gosh, ohmy gosh, we can't keep going
where we're going, and they findthemselves as the head of a
large company, and they have achoice To drop out, of course,
and to go pursue something elseand many do, by the way.
AJ (24:37):
Yes, you've seen that.
Paul (24:38):
Or to stay yes, because they know if they leave, it's
not going to go pursue somethingelse and many do, by the way.
Yes, you've seen that or tostay?
Yes, because they know if theyleave, it's just, it's not going
to go away, it's going to stillbe there, and so if they stay,
then what can they do totransform?
And what I see is, in with theCEOs I'm working with, which the
(25:00):
companies or household names?
They don't talk about it, theydon't publicize it, they don't
brag on it.
They know just do it and do itand do it, as opposed to hey,
look at us, look at what we'redoing.
You know we're green and we'rethis and we're that.
AJ (25:17):
That's interesting when the greenwashing phenomenon is in
some ways spiking.
But there's another way.
Paul (25:23):
Well, it spikes and, yes, it is, but the ones I work with
do not do that, absolutely not.
I mean, they know howridiculous that is and how
pointless it is, and I feel likethere's some really, really,
really good people out there.
Nothing is what it appears tobe in the sense of how we get
(25:48):
information.
It's just not.
AJ (25:50):
It's not.
It's why I do what I do.
Yeah, and I guess why you dowhat you do.
Paul (25:55):
Yeah, I mean, you can have local politicians who are
involved with who knows what toyou know to get the road in
front of your beach, you know.
And you just say, well, youknow.
But it doesn't mean that thatis ubiquitous, no, that's the
thing, that state of confusion,or even corruption, you know
Exactly.
AJ (26:16):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, all right, I feel like winding up
drawing a thread back to yourexperience as a teen in Alabama,
in a way, where you witnessed aform of spirituality, if you
will, and was so taken by it,and it was so distinct from your
(26:36):
background and we share some ofthis.
Maybe we'll talk about thisanother day altar boy histories
that could be fun or not.
I wonder how you think aboutyour spirituality today oh gosh,
(26:56):
the easy question, yeah well,we warmed up um.
Paul (27:04):
Actually don't think about spirituality Really, yeah, I
mean because it's a word, sure,spirituality, and it's like it
almost feels like a thing youknow that you do or you don't do
, or you're involved with it,with it and all I guess too, but
(27:35):
I think more of, does thedifferent aspects of my presence
in the world connect to allother aspects properly?
In other words, am I living anethical life?
Am I kind to others, do Ilisten, am I respectful to self
and do I honor those who've comebefore the wisdom?
AJ (27:55):
keepers.
Paul (27:56):
Do I stay open to things I might have resisted or still do
resist?
That's kind of how I see it, asopposed to you know, I practice
X and I do this every day, orwhatever I go in this place, I
bend there and so you do havepractices too, though.
AJ (28:18):
Yeah.
Paul (28:19):
Yeah.
AJ (28:19):
Is that where you just remind yourself of these?
Paul (28:23):
things.
Well, I think any practice isreally about recognizing the
mind as being.
They call it a monkey mind, forgood reason.
They say 30,000 thoughts a dayand there's nothing you can do
about that except, you know, getdrunk, I mean.
And so again, I mean carbon.
(28:47):
The Book of Life is about flow.
It's about carbon is a flow,you know, but those are a flow
too.
Those thoughts are a flow.
And to recognize them as that,as opposed to trying to control
them or identify or, you know,sort them out, you know, and to
(29:09):
see suffering my own, by the wayand or success, or praise, or
criticism, or, and to take inall the vagaries of what it
(29:29):
means to be a human being andnot get attached, to see it as
the flow actually, and that'snot who you are, it's not who
you are and that's a difficultthing to do, and there's so many
different practices andteachings and exemplars, you
(29:52):
know, who really help people seethat.
But then, you know, we talkabout James Nestor.
Even he does and just came intoit from a completely different
direction.
AJ (30:03):
Yeah, as I did with this yeah.
Paul (30:06):
Yeah, exactly, I feel like having met some of the more
quote-unquote famous teachers.
My feeling is there's teacherseverywhere and we don't
recognize them.
Miguelito picks up my garbage16 years.
Miguelito Miguel is a teacherto me.
(30:29):
He is such an amazing being, socheerful, so happy, so kind, so
respectful, so joyous, and wehave such a good time together
and so forth.
So I feel like, as opposed tosomebody who's got lots of
(30:49):
followers and acolytes and thisand a temple or something and
flies around in privates youknow like I'm not saying they're
not teachers too, I'm justsaying that they're everywhere,
they're everywhere, they'reeverywhere and to try to be the
person who can see it andrecognize it and honor it and
(31:12):
enjoy it.
By the way, beautiful yeah.
AJ (31:16):
Do you think about mortality ?
Paul (31:18):
All the time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
I mean I think about it too,because sometimes I say it and
people say don't say that, don'tsay that.
But I say, you know, the newarrivals are asking the ones who
are leaving so I'm leaving soon.
You just got here and they'resaying what in the you know,
(31:40):
were you thinking?
You know you can fill in theblank there.
I just got here and this is amess, you know, and you guys are
so eff up and confused and I'mjust curious to know what were
you thinking all this time?
And I'm saying well, it's afair question, it's a fair
question.
(32:05):
And as somebody who's leavingsoon you know, and my wife and
everything.
Don't say that, don't say thatI said look, that's just a fact.
Whatever soon is, I mean youcan stay here and still be.
You can leave, just becauseyour mind is gone the brain, or
you've stopped, yeah, yeah.
But I see it from thatperspective.
So it's more like mortality inthe sense of, oh, I'll die.
(32:26):
No, it's mortality in the senseof, oh, you know, I'll die.
No, it's mortality in the senseof it gives you a completely
different perspective.
And if you add the number ofyears you might possibly live,
given where you are now and youknow I'm so, so, so grateful,
you know I'm in perfect healthand I don't know why completely,
(32:51):
but I mean I'm certainlyattended to it.
But if you subtract how long Icould live from now to that
number, is that I know a 10 yearold, 17 year old, 23 year old,
I don't know and what they seeand what they're experiencing
your son, you know, it's 10years old how they see the world
and to look at it from thatpoint of view and what should I?
(33:16):
Maybe not should is not theright word, but what do I want
to say?
Be do, offer to them, becausewe're all the same and we come
and go.
And there's a beautiful thing inMary Oliver, just an incredible
(33:36):
poet, and she says I'm notquoting exactly at all, I'm
paraphrasing I see the worldtoday and I know I'm going to
die, as everybody is, and to seeit with that sense of
(33:57):
preciousness and beauty and justlike and there's a Buddhist, I
don't know what to call it, theteaching, whatever it is but
that being alive is so, sospecial, so extraordinary, so
rare to be in a human body andto enjoy what that means to live
(34:20):
here on earth.
It's as rare as a sea anemonewalking out of the ocean going
up a tree.
Sea anemone walking out of theocean going up a tree, finding a
little hole in the tree andsetting up shop.
That's about how rare it is tobe a human being and if you look
at that, at our existence asbeing, this is, you know,
(34:44):
incarnation, reincarnation.
I mean, it is so special, youknow, to be alive.
So that's what mortality isabout for me.
AJ (34:58):
I said to someone on leaving Australia that I'd been
privileged enough to read adraft of the upcoming book and
that it was incredible.
You know you've done it again.
And she said how does he do it?
And I said I know it's part ofhis genius and it's just to say
you, certainly in terms of whatyou're passing on to the next
(35:19):
generations, you are amanifestation of that wonder.
It's really something.
Paul (35:24):
It's interesting because my way of looking at it is a
little different.
You know, my way of looking atit is like is this good enough?
Of course, no, no, it's just.
I mean I'm really, I'm bad thatway.
I mean I'm not a good, I'm notso good to myself in that way,
every step of the book andreading it and changing this and
(35:44):
that I'm going oh my God, thisbook is going to fail.
And who's going to read it?
My friends will Maybe.
I'll just say they read it.
Chapter 2 is like thanks, paul,thanks for sharing.
But you know what would be funright now, Because it doesn't
come out until February 25.
(36:05):
It would be fun to just readthe last paragraph, if you want.
Do you want to?
Yeah, yeah, if you'll let me.
AJ (36:13):
Totally Okay.
All right, take your time.
Paul (36:15):
Okay, ready, yeah, okay.
The cascade of troublinginformation about the future is
staggering.
In disparity, great damage hasbeen done to the whole of the
living world.
There is, and will be suffering.
Chief Oran Lanz of the OnondagaNation described a prophecy,
foretold a time when the earthbecame biologically degenerated
(36:40):
and the purpose of humanity waslost.
There would be two signs.
One the wind would howl andblow as never before and the
envelope of the earth would beripped and torn apart, caused by
the activity of humankind.
The second sign would be thechildren.
Throughout the world, millionsof children would be homeless,
(37:03):
hungry, exploited and ignored.
This is no longer a prophecy.
This is heartbreak.
Most of us turn down the dial tofunction.
Quote consciousness, the greatpoem of matter seems so unlikely
, so impossible.
And yet here we are with ourloneliness and our giant dreams.
(37:27):
With our loneliness and ourgiant dreams, writes Diane
Ackerman.
People sense somethingmomentous is happening.
Barry Lopez wrote we feelourselves on the verge of
something vague butextraordinary.
Something big is in the windand we feel it.
We know that if we mean to makethis a true home, we have a
monumental adjustment to make.
(37:48):
We must turn to each other andsense that this is possible.
If you are afraid of what mighthappen in the future, find the
person you respect who does notact out of fear.
If you feel overwhelmed, readthe biographies of Sojourner
Truth or Cesar Chavez.
If you think being kind,respectful and polite is
(38:12):
ineffective, listen to JaneGoodall or Robin Wall Kimmerer.
If you feel ineffective, mentora child.
Help heal a wounded animal.
If you are weary of chasinghope, read original instructions
written and edited by MelissaNelson, a member of the Turtle
Band mountain band of theChippewa, to stop the mind from
(38:36):
caving in on itself.
Go outside.
Replace digitized awarenesswith direct experience.
Mend and revive a verge, somesolid land, a habitat, your
backyard, a relationship.
Reintroduce native plants thatprovide food and sanctuary for
pollinators and birds.
Learn their names and stories,as Wendell Berry counseled.
(38:59):
Be joyous though you know allthe facts.
Although we face what appears tobe an insurmountable endgame
brought about by ignorance,aggression and greed, we also
live in the most brilliantperiod in human history.
Breakthroughs arise frombreakdowns.
Renewal results fromdisturbance.
Regenerating the world is thejourney to possibility Vistas
(39:24):
open.
The extraordinary diversity ofvoices, social organisms and
entities emerging in the worldare rehearsing the future.
As I wrote this sentence above,a swallowtail butterfly flitted
about the window and came inits wings, gently fanning the
air above my fingers andkeyboard and keyboard Change and
(39:47):
wonder.
Doubt and fear walk hand in hand.
This is the nameless era.
It was predicted, but thecommon fate of prophecy is to be
ignored.
The juggernaut institutionsthat lay waste to sea, land and
people cannot endure.
Top-down solutions forregenerating life on Earth will
(40:08):
fail as well, because naturedoes not work that way.
A beginning is near a thresholdand so too is an end.
Without fail, meaningful changebegins with one person, one idea
, one aspiration, an audaciousdream.
Singularity is the birthrightof the planet and every cell it
(40:30):
is the seed of community.
Plant it.
Doom and gloom are cobwebs.
Brush them aside.
We seek rapprochement withMother Earth, the vast and
mysterious primordialintelligence that steadily gives
birth to all that exists, thatsustains all that is.
Beliefs do not change ouractions.
(40:52):
Actions change our beliefs.
Complex realities begin assimple acts.
Enchantment, humility, respect,imagination and constant
gratitude create our openings tothe aperture of the living
world.
Monica Galeano suggests we stopplaying God and instead play
midwife.
(41:12):
We can't save the planet.
It will save itself.
The planet is innatelyregenerative and we are invited
to join.
The invitation is to create aworld that's worth saving.
Living species are rapidlydwindling in number.
We eat, drink and breathebecause of this mantle of life.
(41:33):
Do we keep it or lose it?
You can't be both cautious andcourageous, so choose Focus on
what is in front of you.
Give yourself permission tofail, leave room for foibles and
giggles.
Find a restorative movement youcan sing and dance to lest
creation plays to an empty house.
Where you are is where you aremost effective.
(41:55):
The power to act does not layelsewhere.
Fundamental human rights andneeds must be met.
Everyone on earth comes first,there's no second.
Revive, honor and nourish thewild, bountiful lives that
forever astonish us with theirsplendor and grace.
Our intention and our rewardare the same To experience and
(42:19):
express our irrevocableconnection to all beings.
It's the only way forward.
So you can take whatever youwant.
AJ (42:31):
I'll be taking it all, anyway.
Wow, I was just listening tothe garden singing as he spoke
and I thought, yep, the gardensinging there too.
What a great privilege to share.
Paul (42:42):
Oh yeah, it was lovely to be with you.
AJ (42:46):
That was Paul Hawken, bestselling author and dear
friend and supporter of thepodcast from almost the very
beginning.
For more on Paul, his broadarray of highly influential
bestselling books and other workand how you can take next steps
on the Regeneration website.
That's his website.
Actually spelled Regenerationsee the links in the show notes.
(43:09):
There are a couple of photos onthe Regen.
His website actually spelledRegeneration See the links in
the show notes.
There are a couple of photos onthe Regeneration website.
That's my website, theRegeneration and more for
subscribers on Patreon.
And it's.
Thanks again to you, generoussupporting listeners for making
this episode possible.
If you've been thinking aboutbecoming a member or other kind
of supporter, please considerjoining us.
(43:30):
Just head to the website or theshow notes and follow the
prompts.
Thank you, and thanks also forsharing the podcast as usual and
continuing to rate it whereveryou can.
The music you're hearing isRegeneration by Amelia Barden
and at the top it was GreenShoots by the Nomadics.
My name's Anthony James.
(43:51):
Thanks for listening, thank you.
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